Jemimah Wei，《原初之女》（Doubleday/Weidenfeld & Nicolson，2025年）

大家好，我是马歇尔·坡，新书网络的创始人兼编辑。如果你正在收听这个节目，你应该知道新书网络是全球最大的学术播客网络，我们的听众遍布全球，达到200万人。

Hello, everybody. This is Marshall Poe. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2,000,000 people.

你可能已经有一个播客，或者正考虑开设一个。如你所知，这其中存在挑战，主要分为两类：一是技术层面，你需要掌握相关知识才能制作并分发你的播客。

You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges. Basically, of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed.

第二个也是最大的问题——你需要获取听众。在当今播客领域，积累听众是最困难的事。请记住，我们新书网络推出了名为NBN制作的服务，旨在协助你创建、制作、分发播客内容，并提供托管服务。最重要的是，我们会将你的播客推送给新书网络的现有听众。

And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. Put this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience.

我们已为众多学术播客成功实施这项服务，现在希望能帮助你。若有意探讨合作可能，请访问新书网络首页，点击NBN制作的链接填写表单即可与我们联系。欢迎加入新书网络。

We've done this many times with many academic podcasts, and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network, and you will see a link to NBN productions. Click that, fill out the form, and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.

大家好，我是尼古拉斯·戈登，《亚洲图书评论》播客的主持人，该节目与新书网络合作制作。本播客专访亚太地区的小说与非虚构类作家。杰迈玛·韦的首部小说《原初之女》中，主人公吉纳维芙·杨在新加坡从事一份没有前途的工作，生活在养妹艾琳——一位冉冉升起的电影明星的阴影下。垂危的母亲要求吉纳维芙联系艾琳。

Hello. I'm Nicholas Gordon, host of the Asian Review of Books podcast done in partnership with the New Books Network. In this podcast, we interview fiction and nonfiction authors working in, around, and about the Asia Pacific region. Genevieve Yang, the protagonist of Jemima Way's debut novel, the original daughter, works a dead end job in Singapore, living in the shadow of her adopted younger sister, Erin, a rising movie star. Genevieve's dying mother asks her to call Erin.

吉纳维芙拒绝了。杰迈玛的小说随后揭示了这对姐妹从九十年代末初次相遇到共同求学经历，最终因积怨分道扬镳的关系史。今天与我共同主持的是娜奥米·舒·埃勒冈特。娜奥米，能否向听众简单介绍一下自己？

Genevieve refuses. Jemima's novel then teases out the history of Jen and Erin's sibling relationship from their first meeting in the late nineties through their shared experience in school to the final grievance that splits them apart. I'm joined today by Naomi Shoe Elegant. Naomi, would you like to tell our listeners a little bit more about yourself?

好的，谢谢邀请，尼克。今天能与你共同主持让我非常兴奋。我是纽约的一名作家兼记者，今年也出版了一本名为《混乱季节》的小说。

Yeah. Thanks for having me on, Nick. I'm really excited to guest host with you today. I'm a writer as well in New York. I'm a journalist, and I also had a a novel come out as well this year called Inco Season.

我在五月份杰迈玛的书刚出版时就读了，非常喜欢。现在能和她聊聊这本书，我感到非常兴奋。

I read Jemima's book in May when it came out, and I loved it. And I'm very excited to talk to her about it.

杰迈玛是国家图书基金会'35岁以下35人'荣誉得主，威廉·范戴克短篇小说奖获得者，曾担任斯坦福大学华莱士·斯特格纳研究员和哥伦比亚大学费利佩·P·迪阿尔巴研究员。她获得过新加坡国家艺术理事会、C1E作家大会、面包作家大会和天堂作家项目的奖项和资助，作品见于《欢乐岛》、《格尔尼卡》和《叙事》等刊物。杰迈玛，非常感谢你今天来节目讨论你的书。或许我们可以先从最明显的问题开始。

Jemima is a National Book Foundation five under 35 honoree, a William Van Dyke short story prize winner, and was a Wallace Stegner Fellow at Stanford University and Felipe P. Di Alba Fellow at Columbia University. A recipient of awards and fellowships from Singapore's National Arts Council, C1E Writers Conference, Bread Loaf Writers Conference, and Writers in Paradise, her writing has appeared in Joyland, Guernica, and Narrative, among others. So, Jemima, thanks so much for coming on the show today to talk about your book. You know, maybe we'll start with the obvious first question.

《原初之女》背后的创作故事是什么？是什么促使你写下这部小说的？

You know, what's the story behind the original daughter? What pushed you to write this novel?

好的，尼科尔森，首先感谢你的邀请。我非常期待这次对话，也很高兴能谈谈这本书。你知道，我花了九年时间才完成《原初之女》的初稿——这个让我基本满意的版本，又用了两年时间修改。现在终于完稿了，每次谈起它都很愉快，因为我不必再为之挣扎了。

Well, Nicholson, now you first up. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to this conversation, and I'm very excited to talk about the book. So, you know, because I worked on this book for so long, the original daughter took nine years to write a first draft off that I was pretty happy with and two more years to revise. So now that that's done, I always have a good time talking about it because I'm no longer struggling through it.

但我觉得这部小说背后的创作历程对处女作而言相当普遍——与其说有一个明确的起点，不如说是大量写作最终凝聚成书的样子。所以我并没有一个确切的开始节点，而是众多文字逐渐围绕成书的形态。实际上我最早动笔是在2014年，我总这么记着。当时写的是个离开故国的女孩，却发现世上根本不存在纳尼亚那样的奇幻乐土。

But I feel like the story behind the novel is pretty common to debuts, which is that there wasn't a definite stepping off point for the novel so much as a lot of writing that end up eventually coalescing around what the book finally became became. So I feel like I don't have a definite stepping off point for the novel so much as a lot of writing that eventually ended up coalescing around what the book finally became. So I actually started writing the first words, I think, twenty fourteen. I always think about it that way. And it was about a girl who had left her country only to find out that there is no Narnia anywhere.

与此同时，我还在创作另一个关于被送养同胞的故事。由于这两个故事消耗了我太多创作精力，后来它们就融合成了同一部小说。之后花了九年时间，才找到最适合这个故事的叙事形态。

But simultaneous to that, I had actually also been working on the story of a sibling given away in return. So at some point, because they were both occupying so much of my creative energies, these two stories became the same novel. And it took the subsequent nine years to figure out the best shape for which the story could take.

那么，请谈谈上世纪九十年代末到两千年初的新加坡背景，小说主要设定在这个时期。你知道，新加坡总喜欢展现光鲜亮丽的一面——滨海湾金沙酒店、酷玩乐队的音乐视频、《摘金奇缘》那种调调。但你在小说里想呈现的是怎样一个新加坡版本呢？

So, you know, tell us about about the Singapore of the late nineties and early two thousands, is when kind of most of the novel was set. You know, I think Singapore likes to portray itself as kind of very glamorous, very glitzy, you know, the Marina Bay Sands, Coldplay music videos, Crazy Rich Asians, that sort of stuff. But but what's the version of Singapore that you wanted to show kind of in in your novel?

因此，小说中的原女儿故事发生在1996年至2015年间。这是一个快速现代化的时期，主要通过一个经济拮据的家庭视角展现，他们住在政府组屋的一居室里——这也是大多数新加坡人的真实居住状况。这提供了一个完全不同的新加坡观察角度，聚焦于这个特定家庭面临的处境与问题。比如，这是个支离破碎的家庭，成员被交换、送养或收养，他们几乎无法跟上现代化的步伐。

So the original daughter in the novel takes place between 1996 to 2015. So this is a period of rapid modernization as seen largely through the lens of an economically squeezed family living in a one bedroom flat in government housing, which is where most Singaporeans actually live in. So this is a completely different angle or lens of Singapore, and it's specific to the circumstances of this one family and the issues they face. For example, they are a fractured family. They have family members who are swapped and given away and taken in, and they are pretty much unable to catch up to the pace of modernisation.

许多问题源于他们所处的经济结构，以及这些结构在不同世代间的差异化影响。当然，这个时期的新加坡并非没有光鲜富裕或奢华的一面——确实存在，我们也看到与之毗邻生活的角色。例如女主角吉纳维芙有个同学佩内洛普，她父亲只需打个电话做些引荐就能办成大事。这种近距离的阶层并置恰恰是我觉得有趣的地方。

And many of these issues derive from the economic structures they live within and how these play out differently from generation to generation. And it's not like there wasn't a glitzy or rich or, you know, extravagant aspect to Singapore during this period. We there actually was, and we also do see characters who live something adjacent to their life. For example, Genevieve has a classmate, Penelope, who is who's, you know, her dad is able to make lots of really big things happen just by picking up the phone and making a couple of introductions. So this proximity and adjacency for me was actually what was interesting.

关键在于这两个现实并非遥不可及——由于新加坡是个城市国家（面积可能就纽约市大小），所有阶层都紧密相邻。女孩们生活在自己的世界，但毗邻的另一种生活让她们不断寻找跨越鸿沟的方式，她们将自身能动性的缺失归因于经济因素，认为获得经济自由就等于获得其他自由与自主权。我的两位主角珍和艾琳并不认为自己与更光鲜的阶层活在彻底割裂的现实里，她们对精英流动性的信念支撑着她们度过极度艰难的岁月。

The fact that it's not that there are two different realities that are so far away from each other, it's that these two realities, because they play out in a Singapore that is very small, like Singapore is a city state, it's really like the size of maybe New York City. And because of that, everyone's on top of each other. And so because you're so close to different ways of life, I think that the girls live in one world, but their adjacency to the other has some hunting for ways to bridge that gap because they see their lack of agency as economic in nature, and they think that getting economic freedom is getting other kinds of freedom and agency. So I don't think Jen and Erin, who are my two protagonists, necessarily see themselves as occupying a terminally different reality from a glitzier class. And they have this belief in meritocratic fluidity that is something that actually pulls them through extremely challenging times.

这正是我创作时觉得最有趣的部分。我清楚现有关于新加坡的主流叙事，本书并非要取代它，而是想稍微拓展我眼中的宇宙，告诉大家：每个故事都不止单一版本，这只是新加坡的另一种年轮。

So that is actually what was really interesting for me writing this. Just I am aware of the narrative of Singapore that exists. So this wasn't meant to replace that. It was just meant to expand the universe that I see a little bit more and to say that, hey, there are more than one you know, like like like every single story, there is more than one story. And this is just another year to Singapore.

我希望随着时间推移，越来越多故事出版后，我们能积累更多层次，最终构建出一个国家丰富而立体的叙事生态系统。

And my hope is that as time goes on and more and more stories are published, we get more and more layers that create eventually, like, a ecosystem of really rich layered narratives of one specific nation.

是的。你通过儿童视角（比如佩内洛普这样的同学关系）探讨经济阶层差异的方式令我印象深刻——孩子往往对这些非常敏锐。能否谈谈你如何探索阶级主题？特别是在新加坡这个独特体系下，即便住在有保障的组屋，人们仍可能像主角家庭那样属于挣扎的工薪阶层。

Yeah. You know, I I was really struck by how you explored the, you know, ideas of economic class and difference, especially through, like, a children's perspective, a lot of it. Like you were saying with Penelope, it's like classmates at school, but kids are often very perceptive about those kind of things. Could you talk a bit about how you kind of explored, like, a theme of class, especially because, like, again, mentioned Singapore is quite a distinctive system where even though people are in public housing and have these support systems, they could still be, like, working class and struggling a lot like like the main family.

嗯。我确实感受到新加坡人对精英主义的信仰——过去十年越来越多人对此幻灭。但成长过程中，我深刻意识到这种'只要够努力就能改变命运'的观念，这个国家正在发生变化。

Mhmm. So I definitely feel that in Singapore because there is a sense of this belief in meritocracy, which I think very quickly, you know, over the last decade has been proven to be people have become disillusioned with that. But growing up, I was definitely very aware of this. So, you know, this sense that if you work hard enough, something might change. This country is changing.

我们深知，与那些拥有数百年历史的国家相比，我们的根基尚未稳固。因此，人们普遍感觉事物可能瞬息万变，对某些人而言确实如此。在教育体系中，这种观念表现为：只要足够优秀，就能进入特定学校；学业出色就能跨越某些阶层壁垒。女孩们尤其坚信这点，因为这是她们能掌控的事情。

We know we have not solidified in the way that countries that have hundreds and hundreds of years of history have solidified. So there was a sense that things could change very quickly and for some people have changed very quickly. And so in the school system, there is a sense that if you do well enough, you can get into certain schools. If you do well enough academically, you can bridge certain classabytes. And that's something that the girls really hold on to because it's something that you can control.

你可以决定自己的努力程度，可以死记硬背某些课程大纲来——比方说——伪装成绩过关。我特别想让她们体验这种早期与多元背景人群共处的感觉，因为在新加坡，大多数人就读公立学校，这被视为世界级教育体系。我知道这与许多国家视私立教育为更优选择不同，但新加坡的这种区分较为模糊，且所有人到特定年龄前都必须穿校服。

You can control how hard you work. You can control how hard you memorise certain school syllabi so that you can, you know, fake your way into certain grades, for example. And so I was really interested in having them put into this sense of being mixed with, like, people from different, you know, backgrounds very early on, because in Singapore, most people go to the public school system. It's seen as, like, a really good world class educational system. I know that's different from many other countries where, you know, going to private school is seen as like a better thing, but in Singapore that distinction I think it's less clear, and everybody has to wear a school uniform up to a certain age.

理论上，每个人都应看起来差不多，能在校园里构建相似的现实。但显然，差异总会显现——甚至你进入房间的姿态，面对学业成败的方式都是传承而来的。这是一种鲜少被讨论的软性特权或软实力。我着迷于女孩们如何自幼吸收这些，并加以利用。这很合理，因为我正在描写她们共同成长的故事，让这些在校园体系中展开——至少是本书的开端部分。

So in theory, everyone should look about the same and should be able to enact the same kind of reality within the school system. But obviously, these differences come out no matter what, and so kind of even the way you carry yourself into a room, the way you approach failure or success in an academic system is inherited. It's like a certain kind of soft privilege or certain kind of soft power that we don't really talk about that much. And so I was really interested in how the girls absorb this from a young age and try and use that to their advantage. And for me, it made a lot of sense because they were I was writing a story of them growing up together to have this play out in the school system, at least at the start of the book.

我很想多聊聊珍和艾琳这两个角色。不过在开始前，能否请你先朗读一段书中的内容？

So I'd love to talk more about the characters of Jen and Erin. But before I do, I thought I might ask you to do a short reading from your book.

当然。我将从第一部分开头朗读——虽然标为第一部分，实际是书的第二章节，因为真正的第一部分是序幕。这段文字旨在交代她们如何成为姐妹：吉纳维芙和艾琳并非亲生姐妹，艾琳是被收养的。现在我从第一部分第三章开始读。

Sure. Okay. So I think I'll read from the start of part one, and so this actually, even though it's part one, it's the second part of the book, because the real part one is the prologue. And this is just to contextualise the way they became sisters, because Genevieve and Erin were not sisters from birth, Erin was adopted into the family. So I'll just read from the start of part one, chapter three.

第一部分·开端，1996年，新加坡。艾琳不像普通姐妹那样自然出现。七岁那年，她完全成型地坠入我们的生活，离开时也同样突然而决绝。那时我八岁。五月某个傍晚，晚餐前，祖母透露她那位在我父亲童年时遭政治迫害失踪、被推定死亡的丈夫，其实一直在马来西亚吉打州与另一个家庭生活——直到上周他被锈钉划破大腿。

So part one, a beginning, 1996, Singapore. Erin didn't appear the way regular sisters did. She was dropped into our lives, fully formed at the age of seven, and she left like this too, suddenly, decisively. I was eight. One evening in May, right before dinner, my grandmother explained that her husband, who had been politically disappeared and presumed it when my father was a child, had actually been thriving this entire time in Kedar, Malaysia with his other family right up till last week when he tripped and ripped his thigh open on a rusty nail.

伤口溃烂化脓，始终无法愈合。感染后，高烧侵蚀他的身体，肝肾相继衰竭，酸性物质随血液蔓延。不到两天，他便去世了。留下的只有一个儿子、一个儿媳，和一群孙辈。

The wound blistered and bloomed, refusing to close-up. It got infected. The fever burned through his body, shutting down his kidneys and liver, washing acid through his blood. Within two days, he was dead. He had left behind a son, a daughter-in-law, and a gaggle of grandchildren.

但他的秘密家庭已无力抚养所有孩子，所以我们将收养最小的那个，一个与我年龄相仿的女孩。说完这话，她看着我的脸，从闽南语——像我们这代人大多能听懂但不会说——切换成我能听说却不够流利的普通话，用不容置疑的语气强调：阿德，败血症，血液中毒。这就是为什么不准你在水沟玩耍，顶嘴更不是好孩子。有种人总以历经磨难自视高人一等，而我祖母从不让人忘记她幼时经历过战争。我低下头，透过睫毛偷瞄微微转向父亲的母亲。

But his secret family could no longer afford to raise them all, so we will be taking in the youngest, a girl around my age. After she said this, she looked at my face, switched from Hokkien, which like most of my generation, I could understand but not speak, to Mandarin, which I could understand and speak but not to a satisfaction, and in the manner of one making something absolutely clear, Sid, sepsis, blood poisoning. This is why you're not allowed to play in the lonkang, and you're better than to talk back. There is a kind of person who considers themselves superior for having endured calamity, and my grandmother never let you forget that she had lived through the war as a little girl. Instead, I dipped my head and peeked through my eyelashes at my mother, who had turned very slightly towards my father.

她眼神专注度降低，但脑海中闪过千万种算计。她快速眨了两下眼，像在完成某个子程序。父亲猛然惊醒：他还活着？祖母发出不耐烦的声响。

Her eyes decreased attentively, but in her mind, a million shifting calculations flipped. She blinked once and then again, a quick subsection. My father snapped out of shock. He's alive? My grandmother made an impatient sound.

不。他连忙改口。对，对。你怎么知道这事的？江——你父亲另一个儿子给我写了信。

No. He backtracked. Right, right. How do you know this? Jiang, that's your father's other son wrote to me.

你知道他有另一个家庭吗？当然不知道。祖母从睡裤口袋——她连去菜市场都穿这条裤子——掏出一张发黄的折叠信纸，上面满是愤怒的汉字。父亲读信时身体僵直，剃净的下颌线紧绷着，但我看出他正极力维持克制的表象。

Were you aware he had another family? Obviously not. My grandmother drew a piece of folded yellow paper out of her pajama pants, which she wore everywhere including to the wet market. It was full of angry Mandarin characters. My father held himself very still as he scanned the letter, clean shaven skin drawn tight against his jawline, but I knew he was exerting himself greatly for the show of self restraint.

他脸颊发白，就像每次遭遇生活屈辱时那样：油价上涨，祖母的专横，那次误喝了母亲存来拌饭的鸡油。我看着这挣扎在他脸上展开，想象他把新消息压缩成小药丸咽下。盯着他颤动的喉结，我屏住了呼吸。

His cheeks blanched the way they always did when confronted with life's indignities. Rising gas prices, my grandmother's tyranny, that time he accidentally drank from the cup of chicken fat my mother was saving for rice. I watched this struggle play out on his face. Imagine him crushing this new information into a small compact pill and swallowing it. I watched his Adam's apple quiver and held my breath.

在我看来，只要保持镇定，祖母召唤的任何可怕现实就不会倾泻而出玷污我们家。他目光在信纸上扫过两三遍才开口。即便如此，父亲仍用那种惊人的谨慎语气说：他多年前就做出了选择。我不认为这和我们有什么关系。

It seemed to me that as long as he maintained his composure, whatever threatening reality my grandmother had conjured wouldn't spill out and scowl our family. His eyes ran over the paper twice, thrice before his lips parted. Even so, my father said, still in that same fantastic careful tone. He made his choice years ago. I don't see how this affects us.

祖母伸出手。他将信对折却没有归还的意思。她用日渐式微的闽南语——她权威的方言——厉声道：我已经答应了。就这样？

My grandmother put her hand out. He folded the letter in half but didn't move to return it. In Hokkien, the shrinking dialect of her authority, she snapped. I've already agreed. Just like that?

直到此刻父亲的声音陡然拔高，我才惊惶地瞥了他一眼。他在爆发后忘记合上嘴，下唇微微耷拉着，露出一圈苍白的无意义皮肤。那是我第一次看见父亲口腔的内部。他的溃败如此彻底，以至于时至今日，只要听见有人用日渐孤寂的闽南语说话，就足以让我变得顺从。祖母平静地伸出手腕，从他指间抽走了那封信。

Only now that my father's voice peak, I glanced at him alarmed. He had forgotten to close his mouth after the outburst and his lower lips hung slightly open, revealing a pale white ring of naught skin. It was the first time I had seen the inside of my father's mouth. His defeat so total that to this day, the increasingly lonely sound of someone speaking Hokkien is enough to render me pliant. Calmly, my grandmother extended her wrist and plucked the letter from between his fingers.

过去的事？她说，都过去了。吃饭吧。我就说到这里。

What's past? She said, it's past. Let's eat. I'll stop there.

感谢你朗读这段内容。我想聊聊你书中的一些角色，不如从主人公珍开始？随着故事推进，她确实逐渐成为那种典型——你知道的，就是那种被压垮的天才少年。她起初学业非常出色。

So thank you for for reading from that. You know? And I I wanna kind of talk about the some of the characters in your book, and let's, you know, start with the protagonist, Jen. I mean, as as the book goes on, she she does kind of become a a pretty recognizable archetype, you know, kind of kind of the burned out gifted kid. You know, she she starts off having very strong academics.

转学后她举步维艰，之后情况似乎每况愈下。你在塑造这个角色时，脑海里在想什么？是什么启发了你创造杰克这个角色？

She goes to a new school. She really struggles, and then it just things seem to kind of continue to go downhill from there. I mean, when you were kind of developing that that character, like, what was kind of going through your mind? What kind of inspired you in creating the the character of Jack?

你说她天赋异禀很有意思，因为我从未这样看待她。若说她真有什么天赋，那就是固执。她骨子里坚信意志力的强大，同时又极度渴望掌控自己的人生。她从小就对经济困境有清醒认知——这点在开篇就很明显。

Well, it's interesting that you refer to as gifted because I've never really thought about her that way. I think her gift, if anything, is hard headedness. You know, she has this inherited belief in the strength of her own will combined with this desperate desire to enact agency in her own life. And she's someone who really grew up with a sense of her own economic limitations. Like, I think that's very clear from the start of the book.

她清楚自己的家庭背景，了解全家挤在一居室里的窘迫——父母、祖母和她同住。她深知经济地位，但那时更在意的是人际关系带来的安全感，这很大程度上归功于她那位极具魅力又全心奉献的母亲。当妹妹突然闯入她的生活，她竭尽全力想在这段新关系中重建那种爱、归属感和自豪。

She knew what kind of family she was born into. She knew what struggles they had because they're all literally living in a one bedroom apartment. She, her mom, her dad and her grandmother, and she just knows, you know, economically where they stand. But what is more important to her at that point is that she's very secure in her relationships, due in no small part to her very charismatic and devoted mother. And when a sister gets dropped into her life, she tries her best to recreate that sense of love and ownership and pride in a new relationship.

在我看来，她是那种对失败极度不适的人。这种特质既是环境造就的也是个人选择——这点我稍后会展开。但无论如何，她确实痛恨失败。由于无法接受自己会犯错、有缺陷，她在高压时刻就会失控行事，做出许多令人后悔的决定。所以当读者讨论时总说她学业优异直到崩溃，但在我看来，她从来就不算真正天赋过人。

And to me, she is somebody who is very deeply uncomfortable with failure. And I feel like that is both structural and individual, you know, and I'll elaborate on that later. But in all senses of the word, she really, really hates failure. And so instead of being able to accept herself as somebody who is flawed and mistake making, her inability to confront that part of herself causes her to act out in moments of high tension, and it leads to a lot of regrettable decisions. So to me, you know, like when in conversations around the book, a lot of people have mentioned, you know, that she's really academically gifted, she did really well until she burnt out, but to me, she was never that gifted.

她只是非常、非常努力。我认为这是新加坡一代人共有的特质，我说新加坡人时附带说明，因为我自己就是新加坡人。我相信这种行为在世界各地的文化和社会中都有体现。但那种感觉就是，只要你足够努力，就能凭借纯粹的固执克服一切。因为环顾四周，你可能会觉得自己不是最有天赋、最有才华或最聪明的，这些与生俱来的特质你无法控制，但你可以比别人多付出200%的努力，以此弥补天生的不足。

She just worked really, really hard. And I think that's very common to a generation of Singaporeans, and I say Singaporeans with the caveat that that's because I am Singaporean. I'm sure this behaviour is repeated in cultures all over the world, societies all over the world. But the sense that if you work really hard enough, you can get through anything with like pure pig headedness. And because, you know, you look around yourself and you think to yourself, you may not be the most talented, the most gifted, the most intelligent, but you and you can't control those things that you're born with, but you can control working harder than anybody else by 200% so that you make up for anything that you lack naturally?

我认为这就是她的性格，正因如此，她缺乏那种我认为在现代社会生存至关重要的灵活性——即承受失败、调整方向并重新定位的能力。由于没有这种能力，当压力过大时她就会崩溃，因为她过度依赖这种固执己见的态度，这种态度曾帮她度过了人生早期的许多难关。

And I think that is what she's like, and because of that, she doesn't have that, that sense of flexibility, which I think is actually really, really important for survival in modern society, which is the ability to absorb failure and recalibrate and redirect yourself. So because she doesn't have that, she cracks when the pressure becomes too much because she has doubled down so much on this hard headedness that has gotten her through so much of the start of her life.

当然，真正考验这一点的是她与养妹艾琳的关系，以及艾琳的成功。从珍的角度看，艾琳的成就似乎来得相当轻松——从YouTube明星到独立电影宠儿，学业优异等等。这自然构成了另一种非常典型的关系：一个对另一个的成功心怀嫉妒的姐妹。这种嫉妒无疑因长幼顺序（与常规相反）而加剧。那么，你希望通过这段关系的正反面如何推动故事发展？

And and, of course, what what what tests that is is her relationship with her adopted sister, Erin, and and Erin's success, which I guess, from Jen's perspective seems somewhat, I mean, it it seems very easy, I guess, as as as Erin goes from, you know, YouTube star to indie movie darling and good academics and all of that, which which of which is, of course, another kind of, I guess, very recognizable, relationship, which is the sibling that feels somewhat somewhat somewhat envious of their other sibling's success, which I'm sure, of course, is worsened by the fact that it's an older and younger sibling as opposed to other way around. So so, like, what what did you wanna do as you wanted to build out that relationship and and how that the the positive and negative sides of relationship with Erin, how does that kind of drive the the story forward?

没错。首先要回应你提到的年龄问题：艾琳更年轻恰恰是核心所在。这不仅关乎她更成功，更在于她的成功源于从珍的错误中吸取教训。

Right. So actually, I'll address one of the things you said first, which is the fact that she's younger. To me, Erin being younger is really the crux of it because there was a sense of, you know, Erin is not just more successful. She is more successful because she's learning from Jen's mistakes. Right?

作为成长中的孩子，长子会向父母学习，而次子则会向父母和兄长学习。这种学习是自然的，你不可能对妹妹说‘别从我身上学东西’。

So as a child growing up, if you're the elders, you look towards your parents. Right? But a second child looks towards your parents and you. And so she's learning, and that is natural. It's not really something that you can go to a second sibling and be like, don't learn from you.

那样就太荒谬了。但这引出了归属感的问题：我的生活有多少真正属于自己？我的成就有多少是独立取得的？又有多少只是他人学习的素材？

That would be like so insane. But so then that raises the question of ownership. Like how much of my life is my own? How much of my achievement is my own? And how much of it is like a learning point for somebody?

即便理性认识到这只是出生顺序带来的自然现象，也难以下咽。我常将本书的核心描述为‘爱能承受什么’，但这其实衍生自我长期关注的命题——如何在快速现代化的世界中保持 integrity（完整人格）？珍与艾琳的关系正是这个命题的具现：我不想写那种‘我们只是碰巧成为家人，不必亲密’的故事，而是聚焦于她们渴望成为彼此最重要的人，却在实际相处中激发出对方最依赖、最攀比的一面。这引发的问题是：这种动态是否由个体创造？

And being, gender being able to recognise that that is just like a rational and natural part of, you know, the the chronology of being born in a certain way doesn't make it easier to swallow. And so I describe this book often as gravitating around the question of what love can endure, but really that isn't an offshoot of something I've always been really, really interested in, which is what a lot of my larger body of work gravitates around, which is how can we actually live with integrity within a rapidly modernising world? And Jen and Erin's relationship for me is enacted within this question because I am less interested in writing a book where two people are like, okay, you know, we're not each other's people, you know, we were just born into the same family or we just happened to be in the same family and we don't have to be best friends. We can just, you know, live our own lives. I was more interested in a relationship where they want to be the best people for each other, they want to be intimate with each other, they want to be they care deeply about each other, but unfortunately in reality they bring out the absolute worst in each other, the most codependent and competitive parts of each other, and the question that arises from that is actually whether this dynamic I mean, the question that arises from that for me really as I was writing is, is this dynamic individually created?

还是说这种特质源于他们成长的社会环境，源于外界强加给他们的一切？我在构思这本书时，也花了很多时间思考这个问题。因此，写作过程很大程度上就是在测试这些角色在不同情境下的关系，探索他们真实自我与他们渴望成为的千万种可能之间的鸿沟。这种差异对我来说极具创造力，正是推动小说发展和角色成长的核心动力。

Or is it structural in nature because of the society they grew up in, because of everything that has been imposed on them from outside? And a lot of, working out this book was thinking about that question for me as well. So a lot of like writing this book actually is about testing their relationships in different circumstances and existing in the space between the people that they are and the people, the million different versions of the people they hope they can be. And that difference for me is very productive. It's how I moved the novel forward and propelled the characters forward.

看得出来你与书中的女孩们以及其他角色共处了很长时间。在写作和修改过程中，有没有哪个角色的行为或言语完全出乎你的预料，做出你未曾设想的举动？

I mean, you obviously spent so much time with with the girls and with everyone else in the in the book. While you were writing and revising, were there any characters that really surprised you, like, did something or said something that you didn't plan on them doing that you were kinda surprised by?

嗯。其实从创作初期开始，我就确定了重大情节走向。比如这个关于家庭成员被送走或回归的核心前提——毕竟我早就在思考这个概念。

Mhmm. So, you know, from the very start when I was working on it, I knew what the big events would be. So I knew this the the general premise. Right? Because I had already been thinking about this idea of, like, a family member that was returned or given away.

我不断思考'何为被反复选择的家人'这个命题。虽然我知道关键剧情节点：比如某个角色会出国又被迫回归。真正让我意外的是具体执行过程中，角色们以我未曾预料的方式自然发展。

And so this idea of what makes chosen family chosen again and again and again and again. And I knew the big moves that would happen. Like, one character would go away to a different country, something would happen, she would be forced to come back. All these things I did know. The thing that this did surprise me was just the execution of how I managed to develop them in ways that I didn't expect.

每个角色都让我惊喜，但若要说最令我心碎的，当属艾琳。塑造她的过程...我对所有角色都怀有感情，但艾琳对爱的病态渴求——甚至不惜自我抛弃——这种特质在创作中不断震撼我。然而这又完全合理：考虑到她加入家庭的方式，以及她将关系中的安全感视为与偶像姐姐珍截然对立的态度。回想起来，这种发展既意外又必然——小说完成后，我们总会固化对创作过程的记忆。

So every single character surprised me, but I would say, as I was thinking about your question, maybe the one that broke my heart the most was Erin. Developing Erin's character really for me was you know, I have a lot of affection for her, as I do for all my characters, but for her specifically, I really felt like she had because of a deeply dysfunctional relationship towards needing love, even at the cost of self abandonment, that was something that I, that constantly surprised me as I was working on this book. But that also made sense because of who she is and the way she was brought to the family and the way she has perceived like security within her relationships, as like really oppositional to the rehauler sister Jen who she really looks up to has engaged with her relationships through life. So, I don't know, you know, in retrospect, maybe I could say it was surprising, but maybe I could also say it's inevitable. I just feel like when a novel is done, we tend to solidify our our impressions of how things went.

但实际创作时，整个过程充满起伏与不确定性。父亲角色也让我意外——虽然我对每个角色都视如己出——我原本对他抱有更乐观的期待，但结局未能如愿。不过我对书写'失败中前进'的角色特别着迷。

But in reality, when you're working on writing a book, it's so much up and down, up and down, up and down, and so much uncertainty over trying to develop where each character's gonna go. I guess another thing that surprised me was the dad because, I mean, I keep saying I feel a lot of affection for this character and that character, but the truth is because all of these characters are my babies. I feel very, very affectionate for all of them. And so with the father's the way the father's life developed, I I guess I had I had higher or maybe, like, more optimistic hopes for for him, and those hopes maybe didn't play out in the way I was hoping. But, you know, I am really interested while in writing characters who fail upwards.

就是那些竭尽全力却总差临门一脚，但每次尝试都能比上次进步一点的人。在我看来，父亲角色完美诠释了这种特质。

So people who are trying their best but kind of always falling short and yet trying their best in, like, slightly better ways each time. And I feel like the father character for me is a really strong embodiment of that.

是啊。你觉得这样想很有意思，因为我觉得角色们对他可能也是同样的感受。对吧？他看起来像是那种会一直支持大家的好人，然后——虽然不想剧透——但他最终以一种相当令人心碎的方式让他们失望了。

Yeah. It's so interesting that you that you feel that way because I feel like that's probably how the characters felt as well about him. Right? Like, he he seemed like this person that was like the good guy that was gonna be there and then, I mean, not to spoil it, but he kind of ends up disappointing them in in a way that's that's quite heartbreaking.

没错。我只是觉得，在某些时刻——好吧，让我重新组织这句话——大多数角色身上都有个潜在主题：他们想成为某种人，渴望成为自己理想中的模样。

Yeah. I just feel like, you know, at some point so I think a lot of things that I was thinking about. Okay. So I'll I'll just repeat that sentence. So with most of the characters, you know, there's this underlying theme where they wanna be a type of person they wanna be they wanna be the person that they wish they could be.

对吧？但表演出来的自我与真实的自我之间存在差距。对他而言，正是这种撕裂将他推到了崩溃边缘——由于家族世代传承的叙事，关于父亲和母亲的经历，这些在成年后逐渐瓦解。我们总以为那代人已经定型，完成了所有人生功课，该把重心转向培养下一代了，但事实绝非如此。

Right? But there's a difference between the performance of self and the self that you actually are. And I think for him, that is something that really pushed him to the brink, which is because of the narratives of how his family, his generation, right, grew up, he had this narrative of what happened with his dad, what happened with his mom. And and then that gets slowly disrupted in adulthood, which is where, you know, we kind of assume that that generation you're set, you're, you know, you've done all the learning you have to do, and, you know, it's time to turn your focus to the younger generation and nurture them in moral character and all kinds of ways. But that's simply not true.

我认为人的成长永无止境。而他长期压抑自我认知，最终被逼至极限彻底崩溃。写那段剧情对我来说非常艰难，不是因为情节难构思，而是我原本试图避免这样的走向。但最终这感觉就是最适合这个角色的选择，所以故事还是朝这个方向发展了。

Just feel like people don't stop growing. And so for him because he has suppressed what it means to him this entire time, he really got pushed to the brink and he really cracked. And so I think that that entire sequence for me was very, very difficult to write, not because it was difficult to work out, but because I kind of was trying to avoid having that, see how in the way it did. But it just felt to me like really the right decision for who this character is. So, you know, so it it did go in that direction in the end.

确实如此。毕竟你们关系如此紧密——我是说那种紧密的

Yeah, definitely. Because you had such close I mean, it's such a tight

家庭纽带，每个角色都真实得像是活生生的人。用最简单的话来说，你有过偏离Jen视角转写其他人物的冲动吗？还是说在结构上你始终确定要坚守她的视角？

knit family and each each each character feels like just like a very real person, I guess, to, like, put in a very basic way. Were you ever kind of tempted away from just Jen's POV to kind of slip into other people's, or did you always know that you wanted to stick with her in terms of the structure?

其实这本书最初是用第三人称写的。在那个阶段，我积累了大量不同角色的素材。但随着小说成型，我意识到必须改用第一人称——因为Jen会做出（恕我直言）最疯狂或最令人抓狂的决定。第三人称下读者更难原谅这些行为，而第一人称能让读者进入角色思维，理解她的决策逻辑，同时又能看到她自身无法察觉的盲区。

Well, I actually started this book in third person. So and when I was in that mood, you know, I had a lot of writing from all the different characters. But as I was developing a novel, I realized that it had to be in first person because Jen makes the the well, I mean, for lack of a better word, she makes the most insane decisions or the most frustrating decisions. And so when you're in third person, I think the reader is less forgiving of that. But moving it to first person, you create a sense where a reader is in a character's mind, understanding how she processes the process and why she makes the the she makes while being able to see around her blind spots in a way that she cannot.

所以我认为它的作用是建立一种与最具挑战性角色之间的共情纽带。当我决定从第三人称转向第一人称，从珍的视角叙述时，就自然而然地需要屏蔽其他视角，将所有事物都通过她的认知滤镜呈现。因为她最大的特点就是——虽然极度渴望与周围人建立亲密关系，却在处理人际关系时毫无章法。正因如此，她无法看清身边人的本质，或许正是因为她爱得太深，反而形成了这种病态的互动模式。但读者却能看透，因为读者可以跳出第一人称的局限，恨不得摇晃着她大喊：事情根本不是你想的那样！

So I think what it does is create, like, an empathetic link with the the most challenging character. And when I went into that point, it when I when I made the decision to switch from third person to first person and move it from Jen's perspective, it then made sense really to not allow the other perspectives to come in, but to filter everything through the way she is seeing it. Because a big thing about her is how can she really, really, really wants to be intimate with the people around her, she's not regulated in the way she conducts her relationships. And so because of that, she cannot see people for who they are, even though she loves them so much, and maybe because she loves them so much, and that creates a really unhealthy dynamic. But the reader probably can, because the reader is able to step outside of this first person and be like, well, know, that is you can just, you just want to shake her, you want to be like, that's not what, you know, you just like, you know, that is not what's happening here.

因此，当采用第三人称叙述时，要让读者接受珍做出的决定会更为困难。虽然现在也未必能被完全理解，但我觉得读者对她的共情程度，应该远超第三人称叙事能达到的效果。

And so, when it was in third person gens, it was a little harder to make gens decisions, you know, palatable to a reader. I'm I'm not sure they still are, you know, but I feel like readers generally have felt more connected to her in a way that I don't think they would have in in that person.

确实。就我个人而言，通过珍的内心独白见证她经历这些纠葛时，有时我也很难认同她那些所谓的委屈。甚至包括导致她和艾琳决裂的那个重大心结——我能理解她为何难过，但同时又觉得...当您在构思珍这个角色时，是希望读者明确判断她的对错，还是刻意保留这种微妙的困惑感？

Right. I mean, I think that's that's certainly true with me, whereas, I mean, getting to see Jen's, you know, internal monologue that she's kind of going through all these different things. You know, like, speaking personally, like, at times, I also struggle to see Jen's grievances as real grievances. I mean, even even the big grievance, the one that the one that that that splits her and Erin apart, it's a little bit like, well, I mean, I can understand why, like, why she'd be upset about that. But also, anyway, it's it's so, I mean, when you were thinking of of of Jen in the book, I mean, how much did you want readers to think of Jen as being in the writer, being in the wrong, or do you want like like, did you want that that subtlety and perplexity in terms of how Jen feels about this relationship?

其实我从不关心读者如何评判珍的对错，因为我本身就不习惯这样看待他人。我只需要读者能将她视为活生生的人——为此我必须丰满这个角色。这就像我在现实生活中的处世之道。

Well, I didn't ever really care about whether a reader thought about Janice right or wrong because I don't think about people that way, kind of. I just needed a reader to see her as a person. And to do that, I needed I needed to develop her as a person. So it's something I try to do in real life as well. Right?

我很少会武断地判定某人绝对正确或错误，因为将人神化与妖魔化本质都是同一种非人化的两面。我更热衷于塑造一个满身缺点、充满无理怨怼的角色——毕竟与那些诉求正当的角色产生共鸣太容易了。这部小说早期的暂定名是《微小罪行》，当时我痴迷于探索那些难以言说的、对自己与他人犯下的微小背叛，那些无法简单量化的精神伤害。这才更有趣：创造某个你未必认同，却能理解其存在逻辑的角色。

Like, I rarely look at somebody and be like, oh, you're totally wrong or you're totally right because putting someone on a pedestal or condemning them are just two different sides of the same kind of dehumanization, even if that isn't the fundamental intent. So it's more interesting to me to try and create a character that's really warty or really has, like, you know, just issues and grievances because it's really easy to align with a character whose grievances are really easily understood. But the working title of this novel many years ago was Smaller Crimes. And actually in that phase of the book's conception, I was really, really keen on exploring the small and inarticutable betrayals and crimes that we commit against ourselves and each other, things that cannot be quantified in any easy or physical way. And so that to me was way more interesting, you know, creating a character who you may not agree with her, but you can see why she is the way she is.

这本质上是对他人内在逻辑的尊重，即便你完全无法苟同他们的行为。

Because that's just kind of being able to respect somebody else's internal logic, even if you totally totally disagree with what they're doing.

顺着这个思路——书中推动剧情的关键转折是她决定前往新西兰，这不仅是地理上的断裂，更是她性格的转折点。虽然客观上可能是种解脱，但后续发展也确实疯狂。能谈谈这个情节设计的考量吗？

Kind of going off of that, you know, one of the big things that propels her forward in the book is she decides to go to New Zealand, which is kind of a big rupture, obviously, geographically, but also for her own character. I think maybe probably in a good way for herself, you know, to get out, but also, yeah, crazy stuff happens. Could you talk a bit about, yeah, like that kind of act of the book, why you decided to to send her away, that was like?

确实。好吧。我一直认为这本书的故事会发生在新加坡和其他地方之间，部分原因首先是新加坡是个城市国家。对吧？所以我们没有许多国家那种城市与乡村的关系。

Totally. Okay. So I think I always knew that the book would take place between Singapore and in other place, partially because number one, Singapore is a city state. Right? So we don't have that city country relationship that many countries have.

我们这里，所见即所得——一个既是岛屿又是城市也是国家的地方。国内没有其他层级。因此我认为这塑造了新加坡的思维方式，即与境外地区的关系是‘新加坡与世界’的直接对接。我认识的所有人——这里‘境外’不是指外国，而是指作为生活对比的平衡点——成长过程中都渴望离开，但未必是以移民为目的。

We, what you see is what you get is like an island that's also a city, that's also a state. There is no other kind of within the country. And so I think that creates the mindset that Singapore has that relationship of like the city other with places outside of Singapore, that Singapore and then the world, right? And so everybody I knew, and I don't mean other as in foreign, I mean other as in there's a balance of the contrast to the life there. So everybody I knew growing up, you know, was desperate to get out, but not not necessarily in the terms of migration.

他们渴望离开但保留回归的可能。寻找这种平衡对我来说一直很自然。其次，我喜欢‘海外新加坡人’的设定，这是我对‘离家探索’传统叙事的新诠释。我们读过太多关于美国人或欧洲人在海外的故事，我就想创作新加坡人的版本。第三，在写作技巧上，本书前半部分累积的社会经济压力需要释放阀门。

They were desperate to get out with a caveat that they might come back. And so one thing to find that balance was something that always felt really natural to me. And, you know, number two, I like the idea of Singaporean abroad, which was my own take on the tradition of a protagonist who just leaves home to discover something. Like, we read so many novels about the American abroad or the European abroad, and I was like, all right, well, I want to make my version, which is a Singaporean abroad. And then thirdly, just on a craft level, right, the first half of the book built so much tension and pressure from social and economic circumstances that I really had to balance this out of a valve.

新西兰就是这个减压阀——即使只是让故事透口气。因为当时主角珍正处于人生绝境，被生活挤压到窒息，必须找到宣泄出口。对我而言，这个出口就是看向国外。新加坡在这方面很特别：我们持强力护照，国内政治决策使我们能轻松跨国流动。

And New Zealand was that valve that I could use to ease off the pressure momentarily, even, you know, just to let some air into the book. Because at that point, Jen is at a stage in her life where it feels like there is no option. She's really squeezed by life, and she's really like in her own head about it, and it just made sense that you would have to find some way to ease that pressure off or to that Samarian. And that way for me was looking outside of the country. And Singapore to me, you know, has always been really fascinating in that way, where we have a really powerful passport, we have navigated our political decisions internally in a way that makes us, it makes it very easy for us to move around the world, regardless of borders.

这也正是我想探讨的。这些因素虽非故事主线，但潜藏于她的行动逻辑中：选择目的地时考量护照优势、英语环境等。这些都被富裕同学点破——‘即便你觉得在国内处于劣势，这些新加坡与生俱来的优势依然存在’。这种认知需要被点醒，某些阶层视为理所当然的事对其他人并非如此。

And I was interested in exploring that as well. So, you know, all those things may not have been like the primary theme of that act where you see it, but it is very subtly underlayed in, like, her movement there. The way she makes those decisions about which countries I can go to, where will my passport make it ease easier for me to be hired, what country will the language be the most advantageous to me, Because Singapore is like primarily English speaking country. All of those things factor into her decision and into really like being told that those are her fundamental advantages by a wealthier classmate who is like, well, these are the things that we have, even if you don't realise, even if you feel disadvantaged within your country, these are things that we have, that are inherent to being a Singaporean. So when she realises that, because a way of, that way of thinking also has to be told to you, think, it's natural to certain classes of people, but not to others.

当她意识到这点后，就开始筛选目的地。我需要她去个不太远但英语通行的地方，于是锁定澳新两国。调研过程中，新西兰不断自我验证为正确选择——其岛国属性与新加坡形成镜像对比，但两国的时间流逝感截然不同。

And so when she realizes that, she's like, all right, you know, where can I go? And then at that point, it was really just a matter of elimination. I was like, all right, I need her to go somewhere. I don't want her to go to America because it's too far away. So I want somewhere that's like relatively nearer but still like primarily English speaking, so then I looked at Australia and New Zealand, and I started doing research into both these places, and it became a chicken and egg situation where because I decided on New Zealand, it became it just seemed to confirm itself as the correct choice at every point of development, because I was really interested in how New Zealand, like, the island feels like parallel to the island of Singapore, and how they have very different different time chromosomes, like the sense of time that passes in their countries are really different.

后来我找到完美地理事件锚定这个时期。所有这些都让我无法考虑其他选项，于是基督城成为书中第二场景。我坚持实地调研——包括新加坡场景。要确定珍和艾琳家的街区，然后去当地走访、敲门询问：‘能聊聊这里的生活吗？’

And then for me, then I found the perfect like geographical event to kind of anchor that period around. So I found all those things, it just made it really difficult to consider any other alternative. And so Christchurch New Zealand became the second setting of the book. And when I was doing research on that, so for me, it's always been really important to get on ground research, even for Singapore. So I had to select where I thought the novel was taking place, where I think Jen and Erin's family live, and then I had to just go to that neighborhood and walk around and talk to people and knock on doors and be like, hi, can I talk about, you know, like living here?

我能谈谈成长经历之类的事吗？那时候人们普遍很友善，我在书中详细描写了这部分内容，而新西兰那条故事线相比之下感觉薄弱了些。于是我想，好吧，本希望仅靠网络调研完成，但看来不行。所以我攒钱后，2016还是2017年——记不清了——专门去新西兰做了调研。计划很简单：实地感受氛围。于是进行了大量采访。

Can I talk about, you know, what it was like to grow up? Things like that, and people were generally very friendly, and I had fleshed out that part of the book, and then the part that was the New Zealand arc felt to me comparatively less strong, and so I thought, all right, you know, I was hoping I could just do it through online research, but I don't think so. So I saved up money, and then I did a research trip to New Zealand, I think in 2016 or '17, I can't really remember. And so I went there, and my whole plan was just to go there and vibe it out, you know. So I did a bunch of interviews.

任何愿意交谈的人我都去搭话。比如问：地震时你在这里吗？能聊聊当时情况吗？公交路线怎样？年轻人都在哪儿活动？

So anybody who was willing to talk to me, I would just talk to them. I'll be like, hey, were you here during the earthquakes? Can I talk to you about what it was like? What was the bus road like? What where are the young people?

如果想约会或交友该去哪儿？在这里生活究竟是什么体验？这些采访为故事线增添了感官层面的真实感。我梳理完新西兰的主要事件后，直接实地勘测——边走基督城的街道边绘制场景地图。

Where do you meet somebody else if you wanna start dating or making friends? Like, what is it like to live here? And so I think that added a layer of sensory perception to that arc that made it feel a lot more real for me. I flooded out the main events of, like, what would happen in New Zealand, and then I literally mapped it out. I mapped it out while walking around Christchurch.

比如：这里将发生这个情节，步行上班需要这么久，回家要这么久，去杂货店和其他地点各需多少时间。这些细节在创作时为故事注入了真实感。

Was like, alright, this is where this is gonna happen. This is how long it's gonna take to walk to work. This is how long it's gonna take to walk home. This is how long it's gonna take for the walk to the grocery store and to, like, these different places. And that added, like, a sense of realism to that part as I was as I was crafting it.

是啊。

Yeah.

确实。你说对称性太准确了，我当时也觉得这种对称很奇妙——甚至连人口结构都惊人相似对吧？

Yeah. It's it's so true what you're saying about the the symmetry because I was it also felt very symmetrical and weird, I guess, but even of, like, very similar populations. Right?

像是，

Like,

你知道，那里大不相同，人口密度低很多，但感觉对她来说是个好地方

different you know, it's a lot less dense, but it felt like a good place for her

去。我是说，你可以稍微聊聊

to go. I mean, you can kind of talk

关于你为书中速成课程部分所做的研究。毕竟你花了很多时间写这本书。我在想是否可以谈谈，比如，实际上，你的写作流程是怎样的？你知道，你是如何将想法落到纸面上的？某种程度上，写小说时你的创作过程是怎样的？

about the research you did for for the crash course part of the book. I mean, you spent a long time working on this book. I wonder if I talk a little bit about, like like, actually, like, what what's your process for for writing? You know, how do you, you know, put the words on paper as it were? Kinda kinda what, like, what what's your kind of what what what what's your process for actually kind of writing a novel?

这是我的第一部小说。所以目前只有这一套创作经验，完全是在黑暗中摸索。我一生都在写作，大部分时候只是想着：既然喜欢阅读，何不自己写点什么？

So this is my first novel. So this process is the only process I have so far, and it was really fumbling in the dark. Right? So, basically, I've been writing my whole life, and a lot of that was just, you know, thinking, okay. It's I enjoy reading, so why not write something?

起初只是写些故事。后来发现这些故事都围绕着同一个主题——在快速变迁的现代社会中，作为新加坡人意味着什么？在这样的时代寻找身份认同意味着什么？当周遭世界与你的价值观处处冲突时，如何构建自己的道德体系？

And I was just writing stories. And then at some point, I realized a lot of these stories were gravitating around the same theme. I was trying to work out a sense of what it meant to be a Singaporean in a modern society that was changing very quickly. What does it mean to like, look for your identity in a time like that? Like how do you kind of like craft your own sense of morals or morality within a world where everything seems at odds with it?

当这些思考逐渐汇聚时，我意识到那些1-1.2万字的故事已不再是短篇，而像是小说的组成部分。创作过程非常混乱，我从各个片段写起，尝试拼凑成型。因此经历多次失败重启——虽然清楚故事内核，却始终找不到合适的叙事结构。

So as I was working on those things, I started those things started coalescing at some point, so then I was like, well, this is really long, all my short stories are like 10 to 12,000 words, so I don't think these are short stories anymore, I think they are like parts of a novel, and I was like, oh, here we go. So then I, that was like very haphazard. I was writing from all parts of it and trying to figure out how to put it together. So because of that, I had a lot of false starts. Like, I think that's part of why it took so long, which is I knew what the story I wanted the story to be, but I just didn't know how to find a shape for it.

自己在表达什么，而现在我会先思考：作为创作者，我真正关注哪些日常萦绕于心的议题？

So I was just writing, I would go up to 80,000 words and then be like, I don't think this is working and then just start all of it again. Now that I've done it once, I feel like now that I'm working on my second book, it's a lot more structured for me, which is, you know, a relief. I think I spent a really long time thinking about what I want. So for the first book, was just writing and then trying to figure out retroactively while looking at my writing, what am I trying to say? Whereas now what I'm doing is I'm thinking about what I what I actually am interested in as an artist, or what are my concerns that I am re occupied by on the day by day basis?

那么我该如何在小说中展现这些元素？它们如何与我关注的场景、情境和角色相契合？我真正痴迷的又是什么？现在我能更好地追踪这些思维线索了。而写第一本书时，我只是勉强推进，斜眼瞥着我的小说，希望能达到某个加速点，让它变得具体可感，具有现实质感。

And how how can I play these things out in fiction? How do they coincide with scenarios, situations, characters that I am concerned with? And what am I really like obsessed with? I think I'm more able now to follow those threads in my mind. Whereas when I was working in the first book, I was just, you know, trying to moving forward, looking at my novel sideways, and trying to, you know, hope that I would come to a point where it got a sense of acceleration and and and concrete, you know, reality.

或许作为访谈收尾，我简单问个问题。这本书如此聚焦于Jen的视角，以及她可能存在的认知偏差。如果要为《原初之女》写个姊妹篇，专门从另一个角色的视角来完整讲述这个故事，你会选择谁？

You know, maybe to maybe to close off the interview, just just a just a quick question. You know, the book is so focused on on on Jen's perspective and, you know, possible misperceptions or misunderstandings of what's going on. You know, if if you were to write, say, a companion book to the original daughter, you know, where where you where you focus on another character and really focus on their perspectives kind of throughout this whole story, who would you pick?

很高兴你问这个，因为我在创作《原初之女》时确实写过姊妹篇。我围绕其他角色创作了类似星座图谱的衍生作品，将其视为扩展宇宙。但完成小说后会有种奇妙体验——那个世界会脱离你的体系，获得另一种实体感。出版后它就成了独立存在。那本书重点描写了许多女性配角，比如原著里戏份极少的裴雯。

I'm I'm actually really glad you asked that question because I did write a companion book to the original daughter as I was working on it. So, I wrote a kind of constellation book around it, which translated around all the other characters in the original Daughter, so I thought about it as kind of an extended universe, but a weird thing that happens when finishing a novel is that the world kind of passes out of your system and takes on a different sense of solidity. So it also coalesces a thing outside of me after I finished the book and published it. But in that book, there was a lot of focus around a lot of the other female characters. So for example, I wrote a lot about Pei Wen, was a really minor character in the book.

她是父亲的一位特殊友人，我对她的际遇和关系网很感兴趣。小说里她是漫画译者（这本身就是另一种叙事艺术形式），同时她对'如何在家庭中扮演服务性角色'有独特理解。这个几乎没在正传露面的角色占据了我大量思绪。我还为Dana医生写了中篇，借此理清她为何打破职业界限，如此深陷这个家庭的情感纠葛。

She is a character who is a special friend of the fathers, and I was really interested in her relationship and why she how she got to this place. In the novel, she is manhua translator, which is a kind of, you know, it's a different kind of storytelling art form. And she also has her own sense of like what it means to be in a place of utility and labor and service to people that you love in your family. And so that character was really taking up a lot of my brain space, even though she barely makes it into this novel. I also wrote a story about Dana, the doctor, the sub novel that really helped me get into the head of why she conducts her way.

所以严格来说不会有单独聚焦某角色的姊妹篇，更像是《原初之女》的扩展宇宙。你提到OGU极度聚焦Genevieve，这确实是刻意为之——我写作时必须透彻理解书中每个事件。正因如此本书耗时良久，因为我必须约束发散思维。有段时间我不得不告诫自己：'这不是点击即现支线的电子游戏，我们必须浓缩成一个核心故事。好吧Jen，就是你了。'

You know, instead of maintaining herself as separate from a family, instead of maintaining a totally professional relationship, the fact that she's so enmeshed, also like, personally invested in this family, I had to figure out why. And so I wrote a book about, I wrote I wrote not a book, I wrote a story about that as well. So so unfortunately, there wouldn't be a companion book focused on one other character, but I would say just kind of like an extended universe of the original daughter. And part of, you know, you mentioned the fact that OGU is really, like, focused on Genevieve. Think that's really by design because I am somebody who I I feel like when I'm writing a book, I need to really understand every single thing that happens in a book.

于是她成为贯穿全书的核心锚点。她和她的家族。但若任我发挥，这本书大概会变成爬满建筑外墙的凌乱藤蔓，朝五百个方向疯长。

And so a big part of why this book took so long to write because I really had to wrangle one focus point. I was like, I had to sit down with myself at some point and be like, all right, stop writing every single thing that happens in this universe because this isn't like a video game where you go in and everywhere you click, there's like a new avenue to go down. We really need to get it down to one story. Let's just sit down and think about what this one story is. And I was like, all right, Jen, you're up.

（最后一句承接上文，保持隐喻连贯性）

You go. And so she became the center of this book that really held it together. But and her family. She and her family. But, you know, if left up to me, this would be like a really messy vine that grew in 500 different directions and covered the outside of a building.

感觉像是要写关于泰勒·斯威夫特《All Too Well》十分钟版本的感想。我现在就想要，我需要完整的剪辑版。

Feels like writing out about Taylor Swift All Too Well ten minute version. I'm like, I need the I need the whole cut now.

嗯，也许有一天我会重新拾起它。你知道，我当时确实非常投入地写这本配套书，但书一出版，我就觉得，这个世界已经与我无关了。我很高兴完成了它。再见。然后我就去忙别的了。

Well, maybe one day I'll come back to it. You know, I I I really do feel like I was writing it so intensely, this companion book so intensely, and then once this book came out, I was like, well, none of my business anymore, know, this world is none of my business. I'm very happy it's done. Goodbye. And then I worked on something else.

但或许有一天，我会回来的。到时候再看吧。抱歉，尼古拉斯，你刚才是在说电子游戏的事吗？

But maybe one day, I'll come back. We'll see. Sorry, Nicholas. Were you saying something about video games?

哦，不是。我只是想说，作为一个经常玩角色庞杂的电子游戏的人，我很欣赏你将其比作拥有大量角色和任务清单。不过我想，与《原初之女》作者杰迈玛·韦的对话到此结束是个不错的选择。杰迈玛，最后两个问题。

Well, no. I was just gonna say, someone who plays a lot of video games with, like, a lot of sprawling characters. I appreciate the analogy to to kind of having a massive list of characters and quests and all that. But I think this is this is a great place to end our conversation with Jemima Way, author of The Original Daughter. Jemima, two final questions for you.

大家在哪里可以找到你的作品？不仅是这本书，还有你所有的作品。你接下来有什么计划？我听说你正在写第二本书。

Where can people find your work? Not just this book, but all of your work. And what's next for you? I believe you kinda mentioned you're working on a second book right now.

嗯。大家可以在我的网站上找到我所有的作品，网址是gemmawei.com，或者在任何社交平台上搜索gemmawei，这是我的统一用户名。我确实在写另一本书，进度有点慢，因为我现在还在推特上活跃，而且《原初之女》出版后我一直在频繁参加活动。沉浸在一个叙事空间里，让我很难快速切换到另一个创作世界。

Mhmm. So you can find all my work on my website, really, gemmawei.com, j e m m a w e I dot com, or I'm gemmawei on everything, so all forms of socials, that's my username. And I am working on another book. It is going a little slowly because I'm on Twitter right now, so I've been doing events for the original daughter ever since the book came out pretty regularly. And so being in one narrative mind space makes it a little difficult to move in and out of that space when I'm moving into a different imaginative landscape.

但这本书让我很兴奋。要知道，当初写《原初之女》时，我以为它是当代题材，但因为花了十一年才出版，人们就说‘你为什么决定写历史小说？’所以我现在描述新书的方式是——它对我此刻是当代的，真心希望出版时它依然具有当代性。

But it is something I'm excited about. And, you know, when I started writing the original Daughter, I thought it was really contemporary, but because I took eleven years to publish it, people were like, oh, you know, why did you decide to write historical fiction? So the way I describe my new book is it's contemporary to me right now, and I really hope it will continue to be contemporary by the time it comes out.

大家可以在推特上关注我，尼古拉斯·戈登，账号是Nick或I Gordon，拼写为n i c k r I g o r d o n。访问asianreviewbooks.com可查阅更多书评、散文、访谈和节选内容。在推特上关注他们的账号book reviews asia，还能在New Book Network及newbooksnetwork.com找到更多作者书评。娜奥米，大家在哪里可以找到你呢？

So you can follow me, Nicholas Gordon, on Twitter at Nick or I Gordon. That's n I c k r I g o r d o n. You can go to asianreviewbooks.com to find other reviews, essays, interviews, and excerpts. Follow them on Twitter at book reviews asia, and you can find many more author reviews in the New Book Network and newbooksnetwork.com. Naomi, where can people find you?

哦，也可以通过我的个人网站naomishoeelegant.com。我的书名为《银杏时节》。是的，这次对话非常棒。

Oh, also my website, naomishoeelegant.com. And my book is called Ginkgo Season. And, yeah, this is a great conversation.

我们节目登陆了所有主流播客平台，包括苹果播客和Spotify。请为我们评分、推荐，与朋友分享，支持我们采访那些书写亚洲、围绕亚洲及关于亚洲的作者们。敬请期待后续节目预告。不过在结束前，杰迈玛，非常感谢你今天参与节目。

We're all favorite podcast apps, Apple Podcasts, Spotify. Rate us, recommend us, share us with your friends, support us interviewing those writing in, around, and about Asia. Stay tuned for more news who's coming up on show. But before then, Jemima, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

非常感谢邀请我，这次访谈真是太愉快了。

Thank you so much for having me. This is so fun.