#41 何时使用太阳能热能最合理？（与鲍勃·罗尔对话）

欢迎收听《Ask Caleffi》，这档节目深入探讨暖通水管技工在实际工作中遇到的真实问题。

Welcome to Ask Caleffi, the podcast that dives into real life problems that plumbing and HVAC technicians face in the field.

我们是来自

We're your hosts from

Caleffi技术支持团队的主持人。

the Caleffi tech support team.

我是格雷格·塔布斯。

I'm Greg Tubbs.

我是丹·福尔库斯。

And I'm Dan Furcus.

欢迎收听。

Welcome.

我们期待分享一些技术热线中的真实案例，用我们的经验和专长帮您减轻工作负担。

We look forward to sharing some stories from our tech calls and using our background and expertise to make your days a little easier.

你好。

Hey there.

欢迎回到《Ask A Lefty》播客。

Welcome back to the Ask A Lefty podcast.

我是你们的主持人格雷格·塔布斯，旁边是丹·福卡斯。

I'm your host, Greg Tubbs, and with me is Dan Furcus.

你今天怎么样，丹？

How are doing, Dan?

我今天挺好的，格雷格。

Doing good today, Greg.

你呢？你怎么样？

How are you doing?

还不错，没什么好抱怨的。

Oh, can't complain.

对。

Yeah.

今天我们请到了一位很棒的嘉宾。

We have a great guest today.

确实如此。

We certainly do.

我们自己的鲍勃·霍特·罗德·罗尔。

Our very own Bob Hot Rod Rohr.

是的。

Yeah.

欢迎你，鲍勃。

Welcome, Bob.

谢谢你们邀请我，两位。

Well, thanks for having me, gentlemen.

哇。

Wow.

这话可别当真。

Use that term loosely.

没错。

Right.

没错。

Exactly.

今天我们要聊聊太阳能。

So today, solar is on our mind.

我们今天要重点讲太阳能。

We're we're we're gonna talk solar.

好的。

Okay.

理应如此。

Should be.

是的。

Yeah.

为什么我们要谈太阳能呢？

Why should we talk solar?

我觉得太阳能又将迎来一波热潮。

Well, I think there's going to be another resurgence.

我这一生中已经经历过四次了，太阳能热利用总是刚淡出人们的视野，过一阵子又重新火起来，通常是由于石油禁运，或者世界发生了什么大事，才把它推回来。

And I've gone through this, I think, four times in my lifetime where it kind of solar thermal fades away and then it comes back, you know, it's an oil embargo or, you know, something's going on in the world that seems to drive it.

而现在，推动它的是电气化趋势，以及减少对化石燃料的依赖。

Now it seems to be this push for, electrification and to get off of fossil fuels a little bit.

其实昨天我跟本地一家批发商聊了聊，他说他又开始订太阳能热板了，卖得不错。

So in fact, I was talking to a local wholesaler yesterday and he said he's ordering solar thermal panels in again and it's been selling.

他说上个月做了两单，刚又下了一笔新订单。

He said two jobs last month and he just placed another order.

所以我觉得，人们终究会去寻找其他替代方案。

So I think, you know, people are gonna look for some other options.

如果你担心地下室或者别的地方电力不够用，也许太阳能热辅助是个不错的选择。

You know, if you're worried about having enough electricity in your basement or wherever, maybe, some solar thermal assist is is another option.

所以我觉得，我们可能会看到太阳能热利用再次活跃起来。

So, yeah, I I'm thinking we might see a little bit more activity again.

你说得对。

You know, you're right.

这确实挺有意思，因为它已经起起落落好几次了。

It is interesting because it has come and gone a number of times.

我记得大概在二千年初到中期，那时候特别火，税收抵免和补贴是很大的推动力。

I recall, you know, probably back in, you know, mid two the mid or upper two thousands where it was very popular and and tax credits and rebates were a big incentive at that point.

我觉得你现在说的对，随着电气化趋势的推进，这种技术很可能又要重新升温了。

And I think you're right now with electrification and that transfer towards that, I think you're gonna start to see that pick up again.

是的。

Yeah.

以前有过推动因素，比如好多年前的石油禁运，再早之前也出现过一次。

And there was a driver, I think, what was it when we had the oil embargo years and years ago, that was one of drivers and there was one even earlier than that.

我记不清当时的具体情况了，但你知道，大概在二千年初那会儿，咖啡行业大力推广的时候，正好有三件事凑在了一起，像一场完美风暴一样。

I don't remember what the situation was, but you know, when we were, when coffee was really promoting it there, would you say the mid or early two thousands, there was really three things that lined up perfectly to make it work like a perfect storm if you will.

一个是政策激励。

It was the, incentives.

一个是公众认知。

It was awareness.

当时政府大力推动可再生能源，还有税收抵免政策。

We had an administration that was pushing renewable energy and, the tax credits.

你知道，联邦税收抵免能达到百分之三十。

You know, the federal tax credit was 30%.

那补贴力度相当不错。

There was pretty good.

很多州也提供了各自的激励措施。

And a lot of states also had incentives.

所以当时的情况是，如果能通过各种补贴或优惠拿到一半的成本，哪怕回本要七到十年，业主也愿意买单。

So I think what it came down is if you could get 50% of the cost of it, through different incentives or breaks or whatever it might be, the homeowner would say yes to something that would maybe have a seven to ten year payback.

但后来这些政策陆续取消，油价又跌了，大家就渐渐忘了这回事，销量又跌回去了。

But, you know, when those things started drying up and the price of fuel came down, you know, it just left everybody's mind and it's, you know, the sales kind of slumped on it again.

所以现在挺有意思的是，这次会是什么推动因素？我觉得可能会有小幅回升，虽然不会像以前那么火爆，但谁说得准呢？

So it's, you know, it's interesting to see what, what the drivers will be this time, but I think it's gonna see a little bit of a resurgence, nothing like we had maybe before, but who knows?

说到底，要是真能预知未来，我们也不用坐在这儿讨论了，对吧？

I mean, it's you know, if we had a crystal ball, we wouldn't be sitting here, I guess.

是的

Yeah.

没错

Exactly.

随着电气化趋势的推进，太阳能的补贴政策又回来了。

With that push towards electrification, again, the incentives are coming back for solar.

很多都是光伏发电。

A lot of it is, you know, photovoltaic.

现在大家主要想到的是光伏发点。

I mean, right now, you you think a lot about the photovoltaic, producing electricity.

但如果你能用太阳能热水或供暖来抵消这部分开支，那收益也相当可观。

But if you can offset your water heating or space heating costs with solar thermal, that there's there's a lot to be gained there as well.

对。

Yeah.

为什么不呢？

Why not?

我的意思是，归根结底还是价格说了算，但几乎每个人家里每天都会用到热水，这点应该没人否认吧。

I mean, everything is, again, it'll be price driven, but, certainly everybody uses hot water in their home pretty much every day, I would think.

所以这方面的市场空间肯定是有的。

So there's definitely a, you know, a spot for it.

更别提那些大型商业和工业设施了，它们每天都需要大量热水，或者在某些生产流程中离不开热水，如果补贴政策够吸引人，我敢说，这些工厂迟早会重新考虑太阳能热利用。

And not to mention, you know, the the big commercial industrial plants that need lots of hot water on a given day, or, you know, maybe for some of their processes in their plant or something, that market, you know, again, if the incentives look pretty good, you'll see some of those factories looking at it again, I predict.

而且随着太阳能系统销量增加，还有更多设备需要重新启用或维修，找靠谱的技术人员会越来越难。

Well, and with the possible increase of more systems being sold and maybe being recommissioned or repaired, it's going be tough finding good help or good contractors.

我清楚得很，我们这儿天天都有人打电话来咨询。

I know for a fact we're always getting phone calls.

我原来装这个设备的承包商，就是装Caleffi产品的那位，现在要么不干了，要么转行了。

Yeah, my old contractor that installed this, the Caleffi product in particular or whoever's, they're no longer around or they just quit doing it.

那想当太阳能安装工，需要哪些资质呢？

Yeah, what qualifications are required to become a solar installer?

你了解这方面的规定吗？

Do you know of any?

这个嘛，我觉得每个州甚至每个城市的规定都不一样，有的地方要求先申请许可，再进行检查。

Well, you know, I think it's a state by state and even, you know, city by city if they require, number one, a permit be pulled and then an inspection.

问题就像你提到的，谁来负责检查呢？

The problem, as you mentioned, who's gonna do the inspection?

大多数报告里都没人熟悉这套流程。

There's nobody familiar with it on most of these reports.

今天早上我查了一下，发现北美认证能源提供商协会（NAPCEP）还有两个课程可选，一个是太阳能热利用，另一个是太阳能热系统检查员课程。

And in fact, this morning I was looking around and actually NAPCEP, which stands for North American board of certified energy providers has two courses still available, solar thermal, and also a, a solar thermal inspectors course.

如果有人想通过正规机构认证，NAPCEP和太阳能国际学院（SEI）都提供太阳能热利用的培训课程，不过嘛……

So if somebody did wanna, you know, get certified by any kind of body, that's one, SEI, solar energy international, so some solar thermal training courses, but yeah.

那安装的时候非得找水管工不可吗？

And as far as you need a plumber to put it in?

其实也不一定。

I mean, no, not really.

搞暖通空调的也能做。

It could be an HVAC guy.

可能是搞水暖的工人，但你也知道，你们城市如果规定一旦碰了生活用水管道，比如进水主管之类的，就得申请水管工执照，或者至少得有持证水管工在现场操作。

It could be a hydronics guy, but, you know, again, your city might require that if you touch the domestic water, you know, an incoming water line or something like that to tie it in, you know, you might have to pull a plumbing permit or at least have a a plumber there to do that.

这个我也说不准。

So I don't know.

我没法断定每个地方都必须请水管工，但在某些地区，确实可能需要申请许可。

I I can't, you know, say for everybody, for every area that's gonna require a plumber, but in some jurisdictions, it may end up permit.

我肯定会有这种要求，毕竟这要看太阳能热能系统的具体用途。

Oh, I'm sure it will because, you know, depending on what the application of the solar thermal is.

如果是用来提供暖气，那大概率是暖通公司来安装。

I mean, if it's tying in to provide space heating, you know, there, you're probably having a HVAC or heating contractor doing it.

但如果是接生活用水，那就很可能触碰到持证要求的界限了。

You may not have a licensed plumber, but if it's tying in for domestic, that's probably where that's gonna cross that line and require that license.

是的，我同意。

Yeah, I agree.

另外，申请补贴也是个问题。

And then the other thing too, is to get the rebate.

你得有安装人员开具的收据。

You had to have a, receipt from somebody that put it in.

那当然。

So sure.

所以呢。

So

你必须是持证的承包商。

you had to be a licensed contractor of some sort.

没错。

Yeah.

你得是某种持证承包商。

You gotta be a contractor of some sort.

你还要提供设备、面板和成套系统的SRCC编号，然后把所有这些材料一起交给税务会计，或者自己报税的话，就得一并提交上去。

And you had the, had the SRCC number off the equipment, off the panels and off the package that we used to provide, and then have a receipt to turn into your, your tax accountant, or if you do your own taxes, you had to submit all that together.

所以，通常都会有个专业人士参与进来，比如水管工或者暖通师傅，他们一般是从批发商那里采购组件的。

So, you know, by default, you would have somebody involved, the plumber HVAC guy that probably went to a wholesaler to buy the components.

所以你会有一份清晰的资金流向记录，知道钱花在哪儿、谁经手的。

So you'd have kind of a a track record of, of all the money where it went and who put it in.

我记得以前有个项目，是在威斯康星地区的一栋大房子。

I recall back in the day, one project I worked on, it was a a large home in the the Wisconsin area.

那时候，那位客户已经装了太阳能热力系统。

And at that point, that customer had solar thermal installed.

我们负责安装锅炉，水管工在装热水器。

We were installing the boiler, plumber was putting in the water heater.

所以当时，这户人家的系统有三家不同的承包商在同时施工。

So, at that point, that homeowner had three different contractors touching that system.

太阳能公司负责安装太阳能热力设备，

He had a solar contractor putting in the solar thermal.

我们装锅炉，水管工装热水器。

We put in the boiler, and the plumber set the water heater.

后来，我们还得把这三套系统连在一起。

And then at some point, we all had to tie them together.

是的。

Yeah.

而且你知道，有些地方会形成小规模的活跃群体，只要看到这种活跃，通常就会有相应的团队或认证，比如在威斯康星州就是这样。

Well and, you know, there's little pockets of where there's activity and wherever you see that activity, you'll see usually a group or a certification like in Wisconsin there.

你有中西部能源，你和我去过那个活动。

You have the mid Greg, you and I went to the Midwest energy.

我们去过。

We did.

我们有一年去了，他们到现在还在办培训和认证。

We're there one year and and they still do classes and certification.

我不太清楚这具体意味着什么，但我知道它对威斯康星州的一些补贴政策有帮助。

I don't know what that means, or I know it, it helped with some of the Wisconsin state incentives.

如果你请的是持证人员安装，那就会让你进入另一个类别或档次，我想是这样。

If you had somebody that was certified to put it in, it puts you into a different, box or category, I suppose.

加州、阳光地带那些地方也一样，那些地方太阳能依然有市场。

So, and the same thing, California, the sunbelt, you know, states where it's still viable.

有些州有强制规定，比如夏威夷，要求所有新建建筑都得安装太阳能热力系统。

I mean, there's some states that require, like the state of Hawaii, you have to put solar thermal on every new building.

所以那里肯定有不少人参与， inspectors 也都很熟悉这些规定。

So I'm sure there's a lot of, people involved there and inspectors are probably up to speed there.

这种地方总会有一些集中区域。

So there's gonna be pockets of it.

有时候最意想不到的地方反而做得最好，比如新泽西，太阳能装机量排在全国前五，光伏和太阳能热力都包括在内——谁会想到一个东海岸的城市能这么厉害。

And it's sometimes where you least expect it, like New Jersey is like in the top five of solar, both for PV, as you mentioned, Dan, and also a solar thermal, which who would have guessed that it would have been a, you know, an Eastern city like that.

通常大家觉得太阳能发达的都是西南部，像新墨西哥、亚利桑那、加州这一带。

It's usually the Southwest, you know, New Mexico, Arizona, California, that area.

但其实，太阳能哪里都有可能发展起来。

But, yeah, it can be anywhere.

北卡罗来纳州也一直做得不错，FSEC 和夏洛特周边都有不少相关项目。

And also North Carolina, they've always had a good program there, FSEC and different programs in, around the Charlotte area.

那里有一群人一直在推动太阳能热力应用，主要是大型商业项目，比如工业用热、反射式集热器，能产生蒸汽驱动涡轮，或者带动小型制冷系统之类的。

There's been a a kind of a a band of people promoting solar thermal, and that's more of the big commercial stuff comes out of there, like process heat and some of those reflective collectors that, you know, can get you up to like steam that you could drive, you know, a turbine or maybe run a little refrigeration cycle off or something like that.

是的。

Yeah.

我知道在威斯康星州，你刚才提到州里的补贴。

I know here in Wisconsin, you talked about state incentives.

我记得上世纪2000年代中期，当时这里大力推广，联邦补贴有30%，威斯康星州也配套了30%的州级补贴。

I remember back in the the mid two thousands when there was the big push here, there was the federal incentive of 30% and then Wisconsin had a 30% state incentive.

是的。

Yeah.

这么说，这对太阳能热利用来说是个相当不错的激励了。

So I mean, that that's pretty good incentive towards the the solar thermal.

我知道州里的补贴后来调整过，但还是有的。

I know there was the state incentive has changed a a bit, but, still.

联邦补贴正在逐步减少。

Federal one's notching down.

我觉得今年会降到20%出头。

I think it goes down to 20 some percent this year.

它们一直在逐步减少。

They've been kind of gradually phasing out.

不过看起来，明年一月又会推出新一轮的补贴计划。

But then again, it looks like they're gonna have another, a go around of incentive packages starting in January.

我觉得这次更侧重于节能改造、热泵这类项目。

I think it's more for energy upgrades and heat pumps and stuff like that.

所以我们还不确定，新计划里会不会单独为太阳能热利用或光伏留出专项支持，据说要到明年年初之后才生效。

So I, we're not sure yet if there's gonna be a solar thermal or solar PV carve out in that one that's supposed to, to go in effect sometimes after the first of the year.

所以，人们是否愿意做，关键还是看钱多不多。

So, yeah, that that has a lot to do with people saying yes is the money.

归根结底，还是钱的问题，对吧？

It's always the money, isn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

如果你是个正在考虑安装太阳能热系统的住户，该怎么评估自家的安装条件呢？

Well, if you're a homeowner that, you know, is thinking about, you know, solar thermal, how do you evaluate the site?

我的意思是，你怎么判断自己是不是真的适合安装呢？

I mean, how do you to see if you're actually a good candidate?

是的。

Yeah.

这是个好问题。

And that's a good question.

其实我今天又专门查了这方面的信息。

In fact, I was looking into that again today.

现在有些手机应用可以帮上忙。

There are some apps that you can get for your phone.

我手上就有一个。

In fact, I've got one.

这是太阳能光伏厂商推出的，但用来评估太阳能热也管用。

It's, was from one of the solar PV manufacturers, but it works for thermal.

你只要把手机直接放在屋顶上，它就能自动检测。

And you actually just take your phone up on the roof and just lay it right on the roof.

它会根据你输入的屋顶坡度和位置，算出能发多少电。

And it tells you the pitch of the roof and how much energy at that pitch and your location you put in there.

然后直接给你出结果，特别方便。

And it just gives you, you know, spits it out.

结果通常显示为瓦特或千瓦，你可以换算成英热单位，这就是太阳能热能的数值。

It's usually in Watts or kilowatts, which you can convert to a BTUs, and it's gonna be a solar thermal.

今天我在应用商店里看了四五款能做这种测算的App。

So I, I think I saw four or five different apps, in the store today that you can do that.

当然，你也可以买更专业的软件，比如TESOL。

And then of course you can buy programs, bigger programs like, TESOL.

这是个德国软件，能做全套分析。

It's a German program that'll do all the, you know, the analysis.

它还能帮你设计管道系统。

It'll do the piping for you.

只要你输入安装成本和融资方式，它就能算出投资回报周期。

It'll do the payback on it if you put in what it costs and if you finance it.

所以，确实有办法在行动之前就把这些都弄清楚。

So, yeah, there's there's ways you can figure all that out before you go.

你知道，有些应用点进去，其实就是公司想上门推销产品。

You know, some of them when you click on them, they're companies that wanna come out and sell you something.

搞光伏的这些人，大多跟卖净水器的一样，就想着往你家门上贴单子。

Mostly the PV people seem to be like water softener salesmen, you know, they just wanna get to your door.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

我们信箱里收到的传单，还有门把手上贴的光伏广告，都不知道有多少了。

I I don't know how many flyers we get in the mail or we'll get a door hanger on the door for PV.

没错。

Yeah.

然后他们就会一步步把你套住。

And then they try and reel you in.

不过你还可以去NREL，就是国家可再生能源实验室，他们在哪儿来着？

But another place you can go is the NREL, which is National Renewable Energy Lab in the what is it?

我想他们的主要办公室在科罗拉多州的戈尔登。

Golden Colorado is, I think, their main location.

他们提供一个工具，住户可以直接用。

And they've got a a sizer that the homeowner can use.

你输入自己的位置和一些基本信息，比如家庭人数之类的。

You plug in your location and a little bit information, maybe the size of your family and stuff like that.

它会给你一些模拟结果，帮你了解哪些方案是可行的。

That'll, it'll give you some, simulations or give you some ideas of what's, what's doable.

不过我们从Caleffi那里发现，关键点是50%。

But you know, the key, I think we found at Caleffi was 50%.

如果能覆盖家庭50%的能耗，效果就很不错。

If you can cover 50% of the, the load, for a residential application, it works pretty good.

在加州，要想拿到那些能源补贴，你得用这类模拟软件证明你的系统达到了一定覆盖率。

And I think in California to get those certain energy credits, you have to prove with one of these simulation programs that it's covering a percentage.

而且我觉得，要想拿到州里的补贴，得覆盖家庭生活热水负荷的50%。

And I think it's 50% of your domestic hot water load, to be in line for the rebate money from the state there.

所以，对，我的意思是，人们得确保系统尺寸合适，并且确实花心思把它做对。

So, yeah, mean, the people wanna make sure that it's sized properly and and, you know, somebody put some energy into doing it right.

所以

So

而且我觉得，如果你打算投资，不管是房主自己投，还是提供激励措施鼓励大家投资太阳能热能系统，你都得确保能收回成本。

Well, and I think the thing is too, you wanna make sure that if if you're gonna make the investment, I mean, not only from a homeowner, but if you're gonna give, you know, incentives back for making the investment into solar thermal, you you have to know that you're recovering something out of it.

你得明白，这是在降低能源消耗。

You have to know that it's reducing that that energy load.

没错。

Right.

应该说是电网上的负荷。

On the system, on the grid, I should say.

对。

Yeah.

光伏行业的人在这方面很在行。

And the PV people are great at that.

说白了，他们就是这么推销的。

I mean, that's how they sell it.

看，这是你今天的电费账单。

Well, here's your bill today.

这是我们预测十年后的电价。

This is what we project the rate's gonna be in whatever ten years from now.

然后我们可以用这个比例来抵扣或节省电费。

And this is a percentage that we can offset or save or whatever.

有些人甚至还会加装电池储能，说白了就是靠这个卖电。

And then, you know, some of the people even try and put a battery storage in that source, say, okay, sell it on that.

要是大家都用空调，电网负荷一高，突然停电了怎么办？

You know, what if the power browns out or goes out with all this, all these people getting online with air conditioners?

这样一来，你多少也算有点自给自足了。

Now you've got a little bit of a self sufficiency, if you will.

有些人就是被这一点激励，不管背后的原因是什么。

And some people are motivated by that regardless of the cause.

还有些人只是喜欢坐在屋顶上，图个参与感。

And then some people just like to sit on their roof just to be, you know, players.

你懂的。

You know?

他们就说：当然了。

They say, hell, yeah.

他们是环保派，但根本不知道系统到底有没有在运行。

I'm a renewable guy and they don't even know if it's working.

有些情况下，我们做过太阳能热水项目，系统都没插电，房主还完全不知道。

In some cases, we've been on solar thermal jobs that have been on unplugged and the homeowner didn't even know that.

所以那东西就搁那儿，纯粹是因为他们喜欢。

So it was just up there because they liked it.

但我家装了这套系统，手机上有个App，随时都能看到它在干什么，能省多少钱。

But I got a people on my house and I've got an app on my phone at any time I can look and tells me what it's doing and how much money it's saving me.

而且它能实时给你提供所有这些数据。

And it gives you all that, data in real time.

我想每个人的情况都不一样，以前卖地源热泵的时候，太阳能也挺火的，大家买它的理由各有不同。

Everybody, I guess, you know, and I recall back in the day with selling geothermal systems as well as, you know, is when solar was popular, know, everyone has their different motive for buying it.

有些人买是为了降低能源开支。

Some people wanna buy it to reduce their energy costs.

有些人买是为了减少碳足迹。

Somebody people wanna buy it to reduce their carbon footprint.

每个人都有自己独特的理由想要安装这套系统。

I mean, everybody has their personal reason for wanting that system.

是的。

Yeah.

这没什么问题。

And that's fine.

就跟买车一样，都是个人选择。

It's like buying a vehicle or anything else.

有些人喜欢那些花里胡哨的配置，也有人就想要实用款。

Some people like all the, you know, bells and whistles and other people want the tradesman special.

给我一辆车就行。

Just give me a truck.

能把我从A地送到B地就够了。

That gets me from A to B.

我们当然也希望满足这样的需求。

Yeah, we would like to certainly help, you know, fill that need.

我们还有一些老旧的部件。

We still have some cluffy components.

我记得我们还有泵站和高温部件。

I think we've got some, pump stations and, high temperature components.

所以至少我们还占着一席之地。

So, we're still got one foot in the door anyways.

对。

Right.

确实如此。

We certainly do.

这些太阳能板的效率这些年有明显提升吗？

Have you seen efficiencies of the panels change a lot over the years?

我的意思是，从上世纪七十年代到现在，太阳能技术经历了四个阶段，效率肯定有进步，但现在的面板到底怎么样？

I mean, if you look at I I mean, obviously, the four stages that we talked about of solar going, you know, back to maybe the late seventies to today, you're gonna see efficiency gains, but how are the panels today?

对。

Yeah.

我觉得变化并不大。

I don't see that a lot's changed.

有人试过用双层玻璃，能减少正面的热量损失，但这样一来，光穿过双层玻璃需要更多能量，制造成本和废料也增加了。

People have tried like double pane glass, which would, you know, reduce some of the loss from the front, but then it took more energy to go through the double pane and the cost of manufacturing and the waste.

所以这种做法后来就没人用了。

So that kind of went away.

其实，集热器的效率主要取决于它实际运行的条件。

But, you know, really the efficiency of the collector is driven by the operating condition that you put it under.

你知道吗，像今天这种又冷又刮风的日子，如果你想让水达到高温，效率可能只有20%左右，但要是条件好，也能跑到90%以上。

You know, if you're trying to get high temperature water on a day like today where it's cold and windy outside, you know, you're probably down in the 20% efficiency, but you can get up into the nineties.

比如游泳池加热器，外面气温80度，你只是想把水温从70度提到83、85度左右。

And an example of that would be like a swimming pool heater where it's 80 degrees outside, you're just trying to get your water to 83 or 85.

这样一来，集热器的热损失几乎可以忽略不计。

Well, almost no losses from the collector.

所以在这种情况下，效率能轻松达到90%。

So you're getting into 90% efficiency on that application.

所以如果是家用供暖系统，最好搭配低温辐射系统，比如只需要100到110度的热水，这样就能把效率提上去。

So for residential heating system, you'd wanna have like a low temperature radiance system, maybe needing a hundred, hundred and ten degree water, then you can drive that efficiency up.

这些数据其实我们两期水暖杂志里都有详细说明。

You can find that information out, actually in our two of our hydronics issues.

我给你看看怎么算，集热器的效率到底怎么样，关键看它在什么温度条件下运行。

I'll show you that calculation, how you can figure the efficiency based on, you know, the operating temperature condition that you're putting the collector under is what's gonna give it to you.

但话说回来，这比光伏发电强多了。

But yeah, I mean, far away better than PV.

说实话，现在光伏技术确实也有进步了。

I mean, yeah, there's some better PV now.

有些新型组件的效率已经提升到百分之二十多。

They're getting up in the high 20%, I think, with some of the new modules.

但太阳能热利用就不一样了，就算只是供应家用热水，在120到140度的工作温度下，效率也能轻松达到50%以上。

But, I mean, solar thermal, you should be able to get 50 and above even on a domestic water at, you know, say, a 120, a 140 degree operating condition.

所以从效率角度看，太阳能热利用确实挺有优势，不过……

So but that way it looks pretty good on efficiency, but

我想这其实符合热力学定律。

I suppose it kinda works under that law of thermodynamics.

你的效率会随着温度变化而波动。

So your efficiency is gonna change as your temperatures change.

这跟热泵的原理是一样的。

It's all over heat pump.

对。

Yeah.

空气源热水热泵的效率会随着环境温度和水温的变化而变化。

So air to water heat pump as the temperatures change, you know, ambient air temperature and water temperature parameters change, your efficiency is going to change with it.

对。

Yeah.

地源热泵也是同样的道理，如果埋管面积不够，地温可能会被耗尽，导致效率大幅下降——这取决于你是在加热还是制冷模式，温度太高或太低都会出问题。

The same with geothermal, you know, some of those loops where the undersized loop field may saturate the ground temperature efficiency goes way off because, you know, it's too hot or too cold, depending on what mode you're in.

所以关键还是得搞清楚具体用途，然后好好算一算数据。

So yeah, it's all about knowing what the application is and, you know, do some number crunching.

说到底，就跟装暖气系统一样，不管卖锅炉、炉子，还是空调，都该先做热负荷计算，不然你根本不知道客户到底需要多大的设备。

I mean, really, you know, the same as a heating system, you should always do a heat load calculation before you sell somebody a boiler or a furnace even, or air conditioner, if you're doing a load calc, just to know what the job at hand is.

不过，有些家用场景确实挺适合的。

But, you know, there's a few applications for residential where it makes sense.

比如家里人多，或者热水用得特别频繁，像每天晚上都要泡个大浴缸之类的。

If you have a large family, if you use a lot of hot water for whatever reason, maybe you got a big soaking tub that you use every night or something like that.

归根结底，还是得看有没有稳定持续的用热需求。

It's all driven by the, you know, having a good consistent load on it.

不一定需要很大的负荷，但得保持稳定。

It doesn't have to be a big load, but a consistent load.

所以每天不管产生多少热量，你都能用得上。

So every day, you know, whatever it's putting out, you can be using that.

在度假屋上装这个效果并不好，有些人买山里的豪宅，就想装个炫耀一下，结果又来了。

It didn't work out so well on vacation home for people to put it on these trophy homes out in the mountains thinking, yeah, again, making a statement.

结果整天空转，没人用热水，水就一直停在那里。

And then they would just sit up there and stagnant all day all day long because nobody was limping.

他们根本就没在用热水。

They're using the hot water.

所以

So

它就会把东西一直加热到过热。

it just cooks whatever.

如果管道里有防冻液，那防冻液就会被烧得过热，却从没流过水箱的热交换器。

If you got the glycol in the panels, it's cooking the glycol and it's never getting run through the heat exchanger of the tank.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，你能回收多少，主要取决于你的实际用水量。

I mean, lot of what you recover out of it is gonna be what your load is.

你说得完全对。

You're exactly right.

举个例子，六口人住的房子和两口人住的房子，太阳能热水系统的回报率肯定不一样。

I mean, you take a, you know, home with with six people living in it compared to a home with two people living in it and, you know, your reward from that solar thermal is gonna be different.

是的。

Yeah.

确实，有些场景特别适合，我们在威斯康星州就参与过几个项目，比如卡拉哈里度假村。

And that's, I mean, there's some sweetheart loads out there and we were involved with a couple there in Wisconsin, the Kalahari resort.

简直是完美的应用场景。

I mean, talk about a perfect application.

他们既有室内泳池，也有室外泳池。

They've got swimming pools inside and outside.

全年无休营业。

It's open year round.

他们还有餐厅。

They've got restaurants.

也有客房。

They've got hotel rooms.

设施里还配备了洗衣房。

They've got a laundromat or laundry on the facility there.

所以一天到晚，这地方总有人在用热水。

So probably every minute of the day, somewhere there's a hot water, you know, faucet running in that property.

他们就是典型案例。

So they're the number.

我记得他们算过，加上各种补贴和这么高的用水量，投资回收期不到五年。

I mean, I forget what they projected less than five year payback on that with all the incentives and all the, the load they had on it.

还有个挺有意思的案例，吉姆·厄利在密歇根州也做过一个。

And one other one that was kinda interesting, Jim Early was involved with this up in Michigan.

那是个溜冰场。

It was an ice skating rink.

他们其实用温水来加满扎博尼机，因为温水结出来的冰面更好。

And they apparently, they've not apparently, they do fill Zamboni's with warm water because warm water makes better ice than cold water.

于是，那个小设施的人就说，咱们装点太阳能热系统吧。

And so this, this little facility up there just said, well, let's put some solar thermal on.

每次我们用350加仑的热水来补冰面，为什么不顺便用太阳能来分担一部分能耗呢？反正他们每天都要修冰。

You know, every time we fill the Zamboni with 350 gallons of hot water, why don't we cover some of that load and they skate every day or they refinish the ice every day anyway.

我觉得， whoever 想出这个点子，真是个不错的应用案例。

So I thought that was kinda whoever thought of it, that was a pretty good application for it.

这个项目的回报率，估计相当不错。

So the return on that was probably, you know, pretty good.

这个应用真是打破了常规思维。

That's really thinking outside the box on that application.

给扎博尼机加热水，没错。

Fill up the Zamboni, Yeah.

不过，更大的应用场景比如加工厂之类的，确实更有潜力。

But yeah, bigger, you know, applications for, processed plants or something like that.

你知道，当规模上来之后，经济账就划算多了，就像我们之前在播客或网络研讨会上聊过的热电联产机组一样。

You know, there's the numbers work out much better when you've got that it's, you know, it's like we were talking about the cogen units here a while ago with one of our podcast or webinars.

那也是靠热能驱动的，如果你没法利用发电机排出的废热或者冷却水的热量，那投资就根本回不了本。

And, know, that too is thermally driven, unless you have something to do with the heat from the exhaust and the generator, everything with the coolant coming off that the numbers don't pencil out.

太阳能也是一样，如果你不能持续利用这些能量，那 basically 就是白忙活。

And the same thing with the solar, if you're not using that somewhere on a regular basis, it's, you know, you're kind of spinning your wheels.

确实如此。

Yeah.

光伏现在明显在快速普及，连我们当地的电力公司都在推，还帮客户融资。

So we see the PV definitely taking off and I see even our local utility company offering it Yeah.

向他们的客户推广，并提供融资支持。

To to their customers, and offering to finance it for their customers.

没错。

Yep.

你觉得太阳能热利用也会出现类似的情况吗？

Do you think we're gonna see anything like that come out with, solar thermal or?

我不确定。

I don't know.

我真希望答案是肯定的，但我不确定他们是否把太阳能热当作像光伏那样容易入手的选项。

I I'd like to say yes, but I don't know if they're keying into that as, you know, low hanging fruit, like the PV is the PV.

大家都能明白，用电灯、给电动车充电这些需求是实实在在的。

You know, people understand they use lights and they wanna charge your electric vehicles or something like that.

这个理由很有说服力。

It's a pretty good sell.

我所在的电力公司——落基山电力，也来找过我，提过类似的方案，不过他们更关心大家能不能装电池。

And, you know, Rocky Mountain Power, my provider here came to me with the same, like I said, a deal like that, And they were more interested in everybody having batteries.

他们派人来给我们做了一番介绍，讲了不少东西。

And so, you know, I, we had the person come out and gave us a spiel and stuff like that.

他们说，会再跟我们联系的。

And they say, yeah, we'll get back to you.

后来又有个家伙来提醒我，说你得仔细看电力公司的那些条款，他们虽然送你价值一万美元的电池，但实际是想用你的电池。

And then another guy comes by and said, well, you gotta read the fine print on those power company ones because they'll give you the batteries, dollars 10,000 worth of batteries they're gonna give me, but they wanna use your batteries.

一旦出现电压不稳，他们就会从所有装了电池的邻居那里集中取电。

So if they get a brownout condition, they pull every neighbor, you know, that has a battery bank there.

他们是在从你家抽电

They're pulling new

过去。

juice.

把

Put

电送进电网，因为他们是

in, they're gonna take put into their grid because they're a

所以他们是从你的电池取电，再输回电网。

So they're pulling from your batteries and feeding it back into the grid.

没错。

Exactly.

真的吗？

Really?

而且你还得跟他们签个五年合同，允许他们在需要的时候调用你的电池。他们不会每天都用，但一旦遇到电压不稳、电力供应跟不上时，就会开始从你那一堆电池里往回取电。

And it was like a five year contract that you had to sign with them where they can pull from your batteries if they need to, they're not gonna do it every day, but when they hit those brownout conditions where they can't keep up with the loads, they're gonna start pulling backwards out of the bank of, batteries.

所以他们正在整个电网、各个供电区域到处安装小型储能装置。

So they're just putting little power storage stations all across the, their network, across their, utility units.

实际上，每个小区都设有一个储能站。

In every neighborhood, actually, there's a power storage unit.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

从他们的角度看，这简直太划算了。

Which from their perspective, that's a great deal.

而对于普通住户来说，如果你并不太担心停电，也不怎么需要用到这些电池，那这个条件其实也还行。

And then, you know, for the homeowner, if you're not that worried about the power going out and having to use it, then maybe that's not too bad a deal.

所以啊，你得留心销售员跟你讲的那些话。

So yeah, you gotta be careful what, what the salesman are selling you.

不过话说回来，我家这条街上每七户就有五户装了太阳能板，而且都装好几年了。

But, yeah, the PV certainly, I mean, every, what, seven houses on my street here and five of them have PV and have had it for years.

他们赶上了州政府补贴最给力的时候，联邦补贴也还在最高点。

So, you know, they grabbed it when the state rebates were great and the federal was still at its highest number.

还有，落基山电力公司当时也给了不少激励政策。

And then, like I say, Rocky Mountain Power had some incentives too.

他们一共拿到了三项补贴，而且都享受了老政策的保护。

So they got three different incentives on it, and they got grandfathered in.

可惜我晚了一年才装，没赶上以前那种按原价回购电力的优惠条款。

Unfortunately, I I was late to the game by a year, and, I didn't get grandfathered in as far as the sell selling back to the power company at par.

他们不是给你现金，而是给你电费抵扣。

Whatever they pay, they get back as a credit.

现在他们给我每度电三到五美分的返利，可我用电却要花十二美分。

You don't get money, but mine, I think I get like 3 or 5¢ back and I pay 12.

不过还是比被人打一拳强多了，我想。

So still better than a poke in the eye, I guess.

对。

Yeah.

我确实也注意到，我们 neighborhood 里越来越多房子顶上装了太阳能板。

I definitely get, I'm definitely starting to see more solar panels go up on roofs in my neighborhood as well.

没错。

Certainly.

是的。

Yeah.

没错，这确实是个问题。

No, that's an issue.

所以现在搞电气化、节能转型，不管你怎么叫它。

So with electrification, scare movement, whatever you wanna call it.

所以，太阳能热利用也得找到自己的定位，你知道的，那批用户手头更宽裕，但你看这个行业里的大公司，都是些知名电子品牌。

So, yeah, the thermal is gonna have to find that niche, you know, and those people have a lot more money, but I mean, look at the players in that industry, you know, big name electronic companies.