我为何想与艾梅丽·芬内尔合作改编《呼啸山庄》

我清楚记得得知她接手时，心想，对，没错，我

I really remember finding out she'd done it and thinking, yes, Yes, I'm

当然了，是的。

of course it is, yes.

我当时就想，是的，我能理解你的想法。

I was like, yeah, I can, yes, I can see that for you.

这完全说得通。

It just made sense.

是的。

Yeah.

奇怪的是。

Weirdly.

我同意。

I agree.

对。

Yeah.

这真是太聪明了。

It was such, like such smart.

是的。

Yeah.

你立刻就明白了，对吧？

Immediately you're there, right?

你已经想着要订座位了。

You're like, I'm booking my seat already.

我认为，如果你是一个真正的艺术家——我真心觉得她就是，我们可以深入讨论这一点——通常那些出人意料的事情，事后回想起来却很合理。

And I think if you're a true artist, which I genuinely think she is and we can come in onto this, quite often what's deeply unexpected then makes sense in retrospect.

是的。

Yeah.

这使得

That makes

也很合理。

sense as well.

让我们深入探讨这本书。

Let's delve into the book.

提到过，你们俩都是铁杆粉丝。

Mentioned, you're both big big fans.

你们最初读这本书时的记忆是什么？

What were your sort of first memories of reading it?

那时候你多大？

How old were you?

它当时对你意味着什么？

What did it mean to you then?

这些年来有改变吗？

And has that changed over the years?

对我而言，确实发生了变化。

Well, definitely changed for me.

我第一次读这本书是在18岁或19岁，当时在印度南部的班加罗尔。

I I first read it when I was 18 or 19, actually in Bangalore in Southern India.

那几乎是约克郡荒原最不典型的部分。

Was sort of the least Yorkshire Moors.

我得说，我当时还不够成熟，没能真正理解它。

And I have to say, I think I wasn't quite mature enough for it

那时。

at the time.

我一开始并没有特别喜欢它。

I didn't immediately love it.

老实说，我觉得它相当复杂和难懂。

I found it quite complicated and difficult, to be honest.

后来上大学时再读，我更喜欢它了。

I enjoyed it much more when I read it later at university.

而这些年来重读时，我渐渐真正爱上了它。

And then when I've reread it over the years, I've come to really love it.

事实上，我刚才还跟哈丽特提到，几年前我当老师时，教16到17岁的学生读这本书，那是我读得最多的一次。

And actually, I was just saying to Harriet earlier that my most read through of it was as a teacher a couple of years ago, and I taught it to 16 and 17 year olds.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

和我第一次读它时的年龄一样。

The same age as I was when I first read it.

是的。

Yeah.

那又是一种完全不同的方式来看待这本书，看到他们第一次接触它。

That was that was, again, a totally sort of new way of seeing the book, seeing them encountering it for the first time.

那怎么样？

How was that?

他们和你一样也觉得很难理解吗？

How did they did they struggle with it in the same way that you do?

是的。

Yeah.

各种情况都有。

A real mix.

有些是真正的多样性。

Some a real variety.

有些人特别关注其中的爱情故事。

Some really went for the love story aspect of it.

有一位学生非常讨厌他。

There was one student who just hated him.

真的无法忍受，他不明白为什么他会讲这个故事。

Really couldn't couldn't bear he couldn't understand why he was telling it.

但这是我最喜欢的一种反应，因为它深深印在了她心里。

But and this was my favorite reaction because it completely stuck with her.

到了学年末，这本书成了她选择写入期末论文的题材。

And by the end of the year, it was the book she chose to write about for her final essay.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

是的。

Yeah.

天啊。

Gosh.

这真是一段不平凡的旅程。

That's quite a journey.

哈丽特？

Harriet?

我当初是为了A水平考试读的，今天我代表的是那些曾经花大量时间认为这是一段注定失败的爱情故事、如今已成长为女性、重读时却不禁问‘天啊，哈利，这真的太扭曲了’的人群。

I did it for a level and I am here today to represent the demographic of people who spent a lot of time thinking this was a doomed love story story who are now grown up women who reread it and think what on earth?' Harry, that's really screwed up.

我们以前会抄写书中的句子：‘没有我的生命，我无法生存；没有我的灵魂，我无法生存。’

We used to write out lines from it 'I cannot live without my life, I cannot live without my soul.

我们以前会，你知道的，像背诵一样到处游行，不停地引用书中的段落。

We used to, you know, like march around like quoting endless bits of it.

你们说的‘我们’是谁？

Who's we?

我和我所有朋友都这样，哦

Me and all my friends who did Oh

哇，你所有的高中同学啊，天啊。

wow, all your sixth form chums, okay, my gosh.

我知道很多人，还有另一个明显的群体，就是那些一直被轻视、被忽视的女性小说家，我也代表这个群体。

And I know loads of people and a quite strong, my other demographic, that of the lady novelist who's patronized the entire time and dismissed which I'm also here to represent.

那时候我已经读过很多书了，但从没读过像这样的作品。

That thing of, you know, how we, I'd read so many books by that point, I'd never read anything like it.

我觉得因为这本书情感如此强烈、如此真实，当你16岁的时候，会立刻产生共鸣，因此它引发了极其强烈的意见。

And I think because it's so visceral and the emotions are so strong, when you're 16, you respond to it so immediately and so it does engender incredibly strong opinions.

但对我和我所有朋友来说，我们就是狂热地爱着它。

But for me and all my friends, we just really violently loved it.

就像亨利说的，这些年我重新读它时，我对它的感受确实变了，但我对它的天才之处的认同从未改变，只是书里的一些内容让我现在反而感到不适，更觉得：天啊，艾米莉·勃朗特，你真是个非凡的人，是个天才。

And as Henry says over the years, as I've come back to it, I do have different feelings about My feelings for it and it's genius stay completely the same but the stuff in it I kind of recoil from and think even more, wow Emily Bronte, you were an extraordinary person and a genius.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道吗？

You know?

这简直太疯狂了。

It is completely bonkers.

它和其他任何作品都不同，我想，如果你没读过，很容易把它和简·奥斯汀或乔治放在一起比较。

Is unlike any other I think it's, you know, it's so easy to, if you haven't read it, to see it alongside Jane Austen or George

嗯。

Eliott Mhmm.

或者夏洛特·勃朗特，它就那样摆在书架上。

Or or, you know, Charlotte Bronte, and it sits there on the shelf.

但它完全是独一无二的，不是吗？

But it is completely its own thing, isn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

比……更古怪

Much stranger than

是的。

Yeah.

你从页面上预期的。

You expect from the page.

你用了‘暴力’这个词。

And the word violent, you used the word violent there.

你狂热地爱着它，但暴力感如此强烈，几乎每一页都扑面而来，我都快忘了。

You loved it violently, but violence is so it kind of leaps out at every page which I'd sort of forgotten.

是的。

Yeah.

就像你说的，你对它有如此强烈的生理反应，因为它确实充满暴力。

Just how, yeah, as you say, like you have such a physical reaction to it because it is violent.

而且非常随意。

And it's very casual.

人们总是不经意地说，比如希斯克利夫正在和内莉聊天，突然说‘我受不了了’，然后一头撞向岩石边。

People are constantly saying, you know, Heathcliff will be in the middle of a conversation with Nelly and he'll say I can't and he'll kind of dash his head against the side of a rock.

这就能解释很多问题了。

Which would explain a lot.

啊，对。

Ah, yeah.

这就是，嗯，。

This is, yeah.

所以评论家们，我的意思是，即使那些并不真正喜欢这本书的人，也不得不承认它对读者有着非凡的影响力。

So critics, I mean even those who don't really love the book, they have to admit that it has an extraordinary power over its readers.

那么，你认为这种影响力的基础是什么？

So what do you think is the sort of basis of that power?

我得说，我认为是希斯克利夫这个角色。

I I would have to say, I think it's the character of Heathcliff.

我觉得他在这本书中居于核心地位，而且是一个如此神秘、如此多变的人物。

I think he's he's so central to this book and he's such a mystery, such a mercurial character.

你知道，他在某些方面就像一张白纸，读者可以将自己的任何想法投射到他身上。

You know, he's, in some ways, a blank canvas that readers can sort of project whatever they want onto.

你可以把他看作一个拜伦式的英雄。

You can read him as byronic hero.

你可以把他看作一个魔鬼。

You can read him as a devil.

你可以把他看作一个施虐者，而他确实就是。

You can read him as an abuser, which he is.

所以我认为，正是因为他难以界定，充满激情与愤怒，而且我们显然在书中通过多种视角——比如洛克伍德的视角和内莉的视角——来了解这个故事。

And he's and so I think you can I think it's the fact that he's so hard to pin down, and he's so full of this passion and rage, and the fact that we see obviously, we see the story in the book from lots of different perspectives, from Lockwood's perspective, from Nelly's perspective?

但当我们进入这个故事时，凯瑟琳已经去世很久了。

But Kathy has been dead a long time by the time we come to this story.

希斯克利夫是这个故事的幸存者。

Heathcliff is the survivor of this story.

他是如何走到这一步的呢？

And there's something about how does he get to this point?

他究竟是谁？

Who is he?

他的背景故事是什么？

What's his backstory?

而这种层层揭开的过程，我认为正是最引人入胜的地方。

And that unraveling is, I think, the most fascinating thing about it.

对我来说，他是核心人物。

For me, he is the center of it.

是的。

Yeah.

我以前从未这样想过。

I've never thought that before.

这很有趣，因为他也是一个异常空白的人物。

That is interesting because he's also a curiously blank figure.

他只有激情、情感、暴力和强烈的情绪。

He's only passion and emotion and violence and and strength of feeling.

你根本不知道他更喜欢火锅还是烤鸡。

You you never know if he prefers hot pot or roast chicken.

你根本不知道关于他最基础的事情。

You don't know like the most basic things about him.

你不知道，而埃德加·林顿和画眉田庄的一切都关乎品味、经历和偏好某物胜过另一物。

You don't know whereas Edgar Linton and everything at Thrushcross Grange and everything is about taste and experience and liking one thing over the other.

希斯克利夫就像一个漩涡。

Heathcliff, he's sort of like a whirlpool.

你知道，是的。

You know what Yes.

你对他一无所知。

You don't know anything about him.

当然。

For sure.

这很奇怪，因为你可以往他身上投射很多东西，各个世代的人都会根据自己的理解重新塑造他，不同年龄的读者也是如此。

And it's weird because you can project quite a lot of stuff onto him and people like all generations have reinvented him for themselves and people, readers of different ages do.

我认为，让我如此享受并持续享受的是它的结构，每当我重读时都是如此。

I think for me what I enjoyed so much and continue to enjoy when I start to, when I reread it is the structure of it.

这是一部真正、真正出色的小说。我以前是个编辑，现在成了作家，我的工作就是去观察这种奇妙的转化过程——我们常随口说，天啊，这书太疯狂了、太离谱了、太极端了，但它其实写得极其巧妙。

It's just a really, really well done novel and when your job is trying to, I was an editor before I was a writer, to sort of look at the alchemy because we throw around words like I say, God it's crazy and it's bonkers and it's such an extreme book but it's such a cleverly written book.

关于它的结构有多么复杂精妙，已经写过大量文章了。故事一开始，就像我在告诉你，我正引导你到达这样一个节点：我们可以开始谈论过去。这是因为洛克伍德必须回头去从耐莉那里挖掘出所有这些信息，但随后，这些内容几乎变成了她像踢球一样随意抛来抛去的东西。

You know there are screeds written about how incredibly complex and sophisticated the structure is and it starts off as a sort of, know, I'm telling you that I'm getting you to this point where we can start to talk about the past and it is because Lockwood has to go back and find all this stuff out from Nelly but then that almost becomes something that she's like kicking around like a ball.

她心想：这个正在向你讲述故事的人是个傻瓜，我们可能根本就到不了终点。

She's like yes, this man who's telling you, who's gonna lead us this story is a fool and we might not, we almost might not get there.

故事的展开方式有时极其难以厘清，但你知道，她对自己的素材有着绝对的掌控力。

And the way the story comes out is incredibly at times difficult to pull out and yet you know she's in total control of her material.

是的。

Yes.

作为作家，你常常做不到这一点。我早已习惯看到其他作家在写作时失去对素材的控制，或者一本书写得并不出色。

And as a writer you frequently are not and I've got used to seeing when other writers I think are losing control of the material or when a book is not particularly well.

这本书却始终在持续不断地讲故事，全程全速推进，我想不到还有哪本书能像这样——它掩盖了自己有多么精妙。

This, it's just constant storytelling all the time and it's it's done at kind of full throttle and I can't think of another book like that because it obscures how incredibly clever it is.

对，这是一个非常有趣的视角。

Yeah, that's such an interesting perspective.

我确实对这本书的叙事框架感到非常困扰，这种由他人转述一个本不属于他们的故事的方式，我的意思是，这有点像M。

I really really struggle with the framing device of this, the kind of somebody recounting a story that isn't really theirs to tell and, I mean, it's kind of like M.

R。

R.

詹姆斯也是，就像故事套故事那样，你会觉得因为这种方式，整本书全是对话，全是口头叙述，全是，全是，我发现读一本全是对话的书在脑子里会感到很有压力。

James as well, like the story within a story and that, you kind of feel like there's, it's all dialogue because of it, like it's all verbalised, verbalised, it's it's all, all and I find that in my head quite stressful to read a book full of dialogue.

是的，你说得完全正确。

Yeah, you're completely right.

我想那时候还没有视觉娱乐，所以我觉得有很多对话，因为有些书想要提供那种纯粹听人交谈的体验，就像我们现在在Netflix上看东西一样。

I guess there weren't, wasn't visual entertainment then so I think there was a lot of dialogue because they, some books wanted to provide that experience of just hearing people talk in

我们

the way that we

现在会在Netflix上看东西那样。

would now watch stuff on Netflix.

但我的意思是，亨利在这方面能比我讲得更博学，不过那时候很多书确实用了不少框架手法，小说也常用这种'我写这封信是为了告诉你这件事'的方式，因为这是一种传递信息的手段，就像今天手机彻底毁了很多谋杀悬疑故事一样——因为你会想，哎，你直接发短信不就行了。

But it, mean and Henry would be able to speak to this much more eruditely than I but like so many books then did have quite a lot of framing devices and novels did use this kind of I'm writing you this letter to tell you about this because it was a way of getting just as mobile phones today have totally ruined quite a lot of murder mysteries or like but you know devices and means of good because you're like, well, you just text them.

所以现在有很多书都设定在1989年。

So quite a lot of books are now set in like 1989.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

我理解这一点。

I I appreciate it.

但我也很喜欢她对这种框架的些许抗拒。

But I also like the fact she's slightly chafing against the edges of it.

你能感受到一种强烈的力量不断从这个框架中迸发出来，而其他一些书则没有这种感觉。

You feel constant, this kind of great energy bursting out from the framing device, which with some of the others you don't.

是的。

Yeah.

这确实很对。

That's very true.

不。

No.

我觉得这非常正确。

I think that's really right.

当然，我们知道艾米莉几乎从未离开过家，对吧？

Of course, you know, one of the things we know about Emily is that she she hardly left the house, did she?

但她确实深深沉浸于霍沃斯那里的图书馆中。

She but we know that she immersed herself in the library that was there at Howarth.

她熟读浪漫主义文学。

And she knew her romantic literature.

她熟悉十八世纪的小说。

She knew her eighteenth century novels.

然而，当然，当时还流行一种完全由书信和不同角色声音构成的书信体小说传统。

And yet, of course, there was this big tradition of epistolary novels written entirely through letters and through the voices of different characters.

所以我认为，这很可能是她采用这种叙事方式的自然选择。

So I think that was probably quite a natural way for her to frame it.

我个人非常喜欢它，部分因为它在某种程度上是一部鬼故事。

I personally really like it partly because because it is in some ways a ghost story.

希斯克利夫被凯瑟琳的记忆所困扰，但你知道，这些是梦境吗？

Heathcliff is haunted by the memory of Catherine, but, you know, are they dreams?

它们是真正进入故事中的幽灵吗？

Are they actual ghosts who enter this story?

这一点始终不太明确，但在某种意义上，这确实是一个鬼故事。

It's never quite clear, but in some ways, it is a ghost story.

你提到的那些鬼故事，艾玛·詹姆斯。

And those ghost stories you mentioned Emma James.

我认为，当故事采用嵌套叙事结构时，这类鬼故事尤其出色，读者会一步步更接近现实。

I think they work particularly particularly well well when when there there are are nested narratives, and we as a reader get closer and closer to reality.

所以一开始，你会想，好吧。

So it starts off, you think, okay.

这不过是我在听别人转述的故事，然后情节逐渐更贴近真实。

Well, this is just a story I'm hearing secondhand, and then it gets one step closer.

到了小说结尾，我们就直接置身于最新的事态发展中。

And then by the end of the novel, we're right there with the latest developments.

这确实营造出一种绝佳的效果，仿佛我们被直接带到了事件的核心。

And it it really makes it it's a great effect because it's like we're being brought right to the center of it.

是的。

Yes.

它确实做到了，不是吗？

And it does do that, doesn't it?

我们的鼻子紧贴着窗户。

Our nose pressed up against the window.

对。

Yeah.

那么，亨利，你能为我们稍微梳理一下这个背景吗？

So, Henry, can you sort of contextualize this a little bit for us?

因为这部小说刚出版时评价褒贬不一，夏洛特·勃朗特显然对此感到尴尬，也担心它可能对其他作品产生影响。

Because the novel had sort of mixed reviews when it was first published, and Charlotte Bronte was embarrassed by it apparently, and kind of concerned about the impact that it might have on the rest of them.

那么，这种文化定位究竟是怎样的呢？

So how is that sort of cultural position?

你认为这种地位是什么时候发生变化的？

When did that position change, do you think?

嗯，是的。

And Mhmm.

为什么最初的反应如此强烈？

Why why was that initial response so strong?

你说得对，这三位姐妹一生都在写作，夏洛特曾提议她们合出一本诗集，但根本卖不动。

Well, you're absolutely right that the the three sisters who had written all their lives, that Charlotte suggested that they publish some a joint publication of poetry together, and it didn't do well at all.

没人读它。

Nobody read it.

没人买它。

Nobody bought it.

于是她们决定——夏洛特决定尝试写一部小说。

And so they decided to turn their well, Charlotte decided to turn her hand to writing a novel.

她写了《简·爱》，但被出版商退稿了。

And she wrote Jane Eyre, which was rejected by her publisher.

是的。

Mhmm.

与此同时，她发现艾米莉几乎秘密地写了一部小说，正如夏洛特所描述的那样，她偶然发现了一些散落的纸张，开始阅读后不敢相信自己看到的内容——她的姐妹怎么会写出这样的作品？

Meanwhile, she discovered that Emily had written this novel almost secretly, the way Charlotte describes it as she came across some loose papers and started reading it, couldn't believe what she was reading, where this come from, this sister of hers.

《呼啸山庄》和安妮·勃朗特的小说《艾格妮丝·格雷》比《简·爱》更早被出版社接受出版。

And Wuthering Heights and Agnes Grey, Anne Bronte's novel, were accepted for publication before Jane Eyre.

不过，实际上由于时间线的安排，《简·爱》最终还是最先出版了。

Although, in fact, Jane Eyre came out before them in the end because of the way the timeline worked.

因此，这三部小说几乎在同一时期面世。

So they have these novels coming out at a very similar time.

我认为，由于最初是以笔名出版，人们一度以为这些作品都是同一个人写的。

And I think because they were published under pseudonyms, initially, thought they were all written by the same person.

我认为夏洛特希望自己的作家身份能得到认可。

And I think Charlotte felt like she wanted her rights as an author to be sort of known.

因此，在《简·爱》第三版的附录传记中，她揭示了三位姐妹的真实身份。

And so in a biographical note to her, I think the third edition of Jane Eyre, she's she's revealed the identities of her three sisters.

然后在1850年版的《呼啸山庄》中，她写了一篇前言。

And then in the 1850 edition of Wuthering Heights, she wrote a a kind of preface.

实际上，夏洛特有很多需要解释的地方，因为这两篇注释将《呼啸山庄》定位为——你知道的，她称之为一部‘荒原野性’的作品。

And really, Charlotte has quite a lot to answer for because these two notes really position Mothering Heights as, you know, she calls it a a Moorish wild book.

它就像石楠根一样粗野。

It's naughty as a root of heather.

她描述了艾米莉如何凭直觉写作。

And this is and and she describes, you know, Emily writing from impulse.

她从未接受过系统的教育。

She'd never sort of educated herself.

这被描述为一种近乎天才般的顿悟时刻。

It's described as a kind of almost like a sort of savants moment of brilliance.

但你知道，这部作品的伟大程度让所有人都感到震惊。

But it's a you know, it kind of shocked everyone how great it was.

是的。

Mhmm.

我认为很长一段时间里，这种观点成为了《呼啸山庄》的主流看法，即它是一部来自荒原的怪异之作，却不知为何取得了成功。

And I think for a long time, that was the that became the prevailing view of Wuthering Heights, that it was this sort of freak from the Moors that had somehow achieved some success.

但随着时间推移，正如哈里所说，评论家们开始指出，不，这部作品其实结构极为精巧。

And it was only over time that, as Harry says, critics started to point out that, no, this is really intricately constructed.

其中蕴含着如此丰富的心理深度与情感，同时又充满了一种完全自由、无拘无束的激情与感受。

There's so much depth of psychology feeling, and yet also a kind of totally liberated, unfettered passion and and feeling in there.

我想现在它很可能已经超越了《简·爱》，成为更伟大的经典之作。

And I would say now it's probably overtaken Jane Eyre as as in terms of which is the greater classic.

我认为它如今被公认为十九世纪最伟大的小说之一。

I think it's considered one of the greatest novels of the nineteenth century now.

你为什么觉得呢？因为你刚才谈到希斯克利夫可能是力量的源泉，这听起来可能有点笼统，但……

Why do you think because you were talking about sort of Heathcliff perhaps being the the basis of the power, do you think for this is gonna sound really generalized.

是的。

Mhmm.

但对于许多女性读者来说，如果她们读完这部小说后，发现主角被描述为像罗切斯特那样丑陋、畸形……

But for a lot of female readers, if they're coming out of the novel, if, you know, if a protagonist is described as sort of, you know, disfigured and ugly as Rochester is

是的。

Mhmm.

那么，这是否可能是为什么它没有像《呼啸山庄》那样引发如此强烈的热情的原因呢？

Then is that potentially why it hasn't kind of reached the kind of the great passion that Wuthering Heights is seen as?

因为希斯克利夫，我们在小说中还把他描述为英俊之类的。

Because Heathcliff, we kind of project as he's called handsome in the novel with other things as well.

但你觉得这是原因之一吗？

But do you think that's part of it?

是我太肤浅了吗？

Is that me being incredibly superficial?

我认为《简·爱》是一部伟大的小说。

I think Jane Eyre is a great novel.

我认为它们在做着略有不同的事情。

And I think they're doing slightly different things.

我认为夏洛特·勃朗特实际上是在尝试一件非常激进的事，那就是在那个时代——做一件非常困难的女性主义宣言。

I think Charlotte Bronte is setting out to do actually quite a radical thing, which is to make a feminist statement at a you know, at a time when that was really hard to do.

而且，你知道，在这部小说中有好几个时刻，她谈论了性别平等，并做出了一些相当大胆的声明。

And, you know, there's several moments in that novel where she talks about gender equality and makes some quite bold statements.

但我认为艾米莉是以一种完全不同的方式在进行革新，而且这种方式至今仍显得非常激进，也许这正是《呼啸山庄》更能经久不衰的原因——因为希斯克利夫是个坏人。

But I think Emily is being radical in a sort of totally different way and in a way which still feels really radical, and maybe that's why it endures even more, you know, because Heathcliff is is a bad man.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他很暴力。

He's violent.

他很残忍。

He's cruel.

但他身上却有一种完全吸引人的魅力。

And yet there is something totally magnetic about him.

而敢于塑造这样一个残忍的男人并赋予他如此强烈的性吸引力，这种大胆之举至今仍显得非常前卫，是的。

And that the boldness to do that, to give this cruel man such sex appeal is still feels really bold Yeah.

今天。

Today.

埃梅拉尔德·费内尔显然对这个故事有着非常清晰的愿景。

Emerald Fennell obviously has this really kind of clear vision of the story that she wanted to tell.

对吧？

Right?

她只是取了书中的一小部分，却将其变成了整部电影的核心内容。

And it she just kind of takes a fraction of the book and turns it into the the entire entirety of her film.

所以，当你进入这个项目时，有没有觉得失去了某些完全没出现、或者被合并的角色？还是说，你其实挺满意这一点的——虽然我们舍弃了原著的很多内容，但焦点完全集中在凯西和希斯克利夫身上？

So, when you when you went in, did you sort of feel the loss of any of the characters that we we don't see at all or are sort of amalgamated in any way or were you sort of quite happy with the fact that actually we lose a lot of the original book but we do then have the focus pretty much entirely on Kathy and Heathcliff.

我觉得这里有两个问题：第一个是，只取故事的前半部分这样做是否有效？第二个问题是，你是否希望看到完整的故事？

I think there's two questions there and the first is does doing that work, does taking the first half of the story work but it also leads on to like would you have liked to seen the whole story?

而且，有可能把整个故事拍成电影吗？

And and and is it possible to film the whole story?

因为很多改编作品，比如奥利弗版、安德里亚·阿诺德版，我认为，

Because a lot of adaptations, the Olivier, the Andrea Arnold, I think,

随着剧情推进，会稍微往后一点，是的。

as It goes on just slightly after Yes.

死亡。

The death.

但，是的，类似。

But, yes, similar.

对我来说，小说的后半部分更有趣，也更让人不断想：天啊，情况怎么可能变得更糟呢。

For me, the second half of the novel is the more interesting and the more where you you just keep thinking, god, the things can't get any worse.

但同时，如果你喜欢艾米莉·勃朗特，那你其实就喜欢她所有的作品，你对她们姐妹们以及她们那极其奇特的人生充满兴趣；而离开呼啸山庄、去探索这片狭小却狂野的景观所代表的意义，正是通过整本书以一种不同的、万花筒般的视角不断展开的；但她不断收紧、收紧，让你以为‘他不会那样做，他不会那样做’，结果他偏偏就做了，这种情节令人欲罢不能，真实而充满感官冲击；但我能理解，所有关于这部电影、这个改编版本的讨论，我认为都必须先以这个问题为前提：A，你看过这部电影吗？

But also this idea of, you know if you love Emily Bronte then you love all of them really you know you are interested in all of their sisters and that incredibly strange life that they led and the idea of the other and leaving the space of Wuthering Heights and what this very small yet incredibly wild landscape means is just played out and played out with a different kind of kaleisoscopic vision through the rest of the book but she just keeps tightening and tightening so you think oh he won't do that, he won't do that and then he goes ahead and does it and it's so unputdownable and real and visceral but I can see everything, every discussion about this film, this adaptation needs to be I think prefaced with this idea of like A, have you seen the film?

因为几天前我去了一趟Reddit，只是想看看是否还有人看过这部电影，因为我们有幸提前观看了预告片，结果发现满屏都是人在说：‘这就是我有问题的地方’

Because I went on to Reddit a couple of days ago and I was just looking to if anyone else had seen it because we've been lucky enough to see a preview just to see and it was full of people saying this is what I have a problem

和

with

不

and no

一个人看过这部

one So had seen the

去看了这部电影再说

go and see the film

然后再来聊聊

and then let's have conversation

因为这部电影的一切都依赖于背景。

because everything about this film is context.

是的。

Yes.

艾梅拉德·芬内尔作为艺术家和电影导演所做的各种决定，我总体上都非常喜欢。

And the decisions that Emerald Fennell has taken as an artist and a film director which I by and large loved.

我真的很、很、很喜欢这部电影。

I really, really, really enjoyed it.

我真的非常欣赏它，就像我之前描述的那样，我心里想：是的，艾梅拉德，我懂你，我明白你想表达什么，你确实完美地做到了——无论在视觉、美学还是选角上，都堪称一场盛宴。但这是否意味着作为观众、作为勃朗特迷，你就不能对任何事提出疑问了？比如，你真的可以随意改动伊莎贝拉的角色，让她不再那么令人窒息地受虐，而不受任何批评或质疑吗？

Really just appreciated it and I saw as the person I've described myself as earlier, I was like yes Emerald, I see you, I see what you're trying to do and you've absolutely beautifully done it and on every level like visually and aesthetically and casting wise it's just a treat but does that mean that you're not allowed as the viewer and as the Bronte fan to have any questions about like will you, are you allowed to just do this and are you not subject to any criticism or like questions at all about like you've changed Isabella's character quite a lot to fit in so that it's not horrifically abusive.

是的，她在这部电影里拥有更多自主性。

Yes, she has a lot more agency in this.

她拥有更多的自主权，因此像这样的问题和决定，你不能简单地说：这是她的愿景，就不允许质疑对错。

She has a lot more agency and so questions and decisions like that, I don't think you can just say well look this is her vision questions about whether it was right or wrong aren't allowed.

但你不能说：我不喜欢这部电影，因为我没看过。

What you can't do though is say I don't like this film and I haven't seen it.

是的。

Yeah.

那是因为

That was

我觉得是这样。

I think so.

太好了。

Great.

我觉得这真的很棒。

I think it's really great.

我的意思是，

I mean,

我会说，对于大多数情况

I would say that with most

批评你不能这么做。

criticism you can't do that.

不行。

No.

令人惊讶的是，有这么多人这么做。

It's astonishing the number of people who do.

我在亚马逊上看到的评论中，有人写这本书收到时有点凹痕

The number of Amazon reviews I have when people say this book arrived with a slight dent

一星。

one star.

不是

Not

一篇关于我花了两年时间写的书的亚马逊评论。

an Amazon review of my book that I spent two years writing.

有趣的是，这是一个相关的话题，玛格特·罗比在收到剧本之前从未读过这本书，她选择在读剧本之前、在与埃梅拉尔德·费内尔讨论之前都不去读，我特别喜欢这一点，我喜欢她那种‘我要以空白心态进入’的态度，这就是她的方式，然后才去读了三四遍书。

Really interestingly and this is an adjacent point, know, Margot Robbie had never read the book before she was sent sent the script and she chose not to before she read the script and started to talk to Emerald Fennell about it and I love that, I love that idea that she was like right I'm going in blind and this is this is how I'm you know, this is how I'm gonna approach it and then read the book three or four times.

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，我真的很喜欢这部电影。

I mean, I did absolutely love this film.

它确实很像我，但我也特别喜欢它能吸引新观众，而且视觉上如此丰富、震撼、美丽、明亮又过度风格化，我太喜欢了。

It's such a a bit of me but also I kind of love how it will bring in new audiences and it is visually as so, like, meaty and stunning and beautiful and bright and over stylized, but I love that.

我觉得，如果她尝试做更传统的东西，反而可能会让自己面临更多批评。

I kind of I think if she had tried to do anything more traditional, she would have actually maybe opened her up herself up to a lot more criticism.

几乎把这部电影当作《呼啸山庄》的梦境版来呈现，这其实是个很棒的切入点。

Think just almost throwing throwing the idea of this kind of being a fever dream version of Wuthering Heights Yeah.

这确实是个绝佳的切入点。

Is actually a great way in.

我觉得你几乎不应当把它看作是对这本书的改编。

I think you almost don't want to think of it as an adaptation of the book.

这是一种对原著的梦幻般演绎，而且它本身就有独立的价值。

It's it is a kind of a fevered dream version of the book, which and it is exist in its own right.

说到你的问题，你只有这部正片，对吧？

I mean, to your question, I I wasn't you know, you you only have the feature length, don't you?

我认为删掉所有那些不同的角色是必要的，因为这本书实在太复杂了。

I think cutting out all those all the different characters and it's such a complicated book.

我觉得你得稍微简化一下。

Think I you have to simplify it a bit.

我唯一感到缺失的是那种被幽灵萦绕的感觉。

The one element I missed was that sense of being haunted

是的。

Yeah.

因为影片从凯西的角度如此直白地呈现，而且从她的视角出发也很合理，毕竟她是在回忆自己少女时期对这本书的反应。

In it because by playing it so straight from Kathy and doing it from Kathy's point of view as well, which makes sense if she's remembering her teenage girl's reaction to it.

从一个少女成长为女人，你根本感受不到那种幽灵般的氛围，而这对我来说是阅读体验中非常重要的一部分。

Going from a young girl to a to to a woman, you just don't get any of that sort of ghostly sense from it, which is for me a large part of the reading experience.

是的。

Yeah.

完全同意。

Totally.

我完全同意。

I completely agree.

我认为凯西这个角色在很多方面都令人反感，行为也极其恶劣，符合当时的社会规范，但读者往往更喜欢善良的女性角色。而在我看来，这是迄今为止我见过的最有力的凯西形象。很多人往往沉迷于荒原的狂野，但实际上，荒原的狂野本身已经足够鲜明了。

I do think it makes sense of Cathy who is an unsympathetic person in lots of ways and behaves really badly according to the dictates of the day and readers as well, know, lots of readers like sympathetic women and Cathy is, it's for me the strongest Cathy I've ever seen and I think what a lot of people do is get really caught up in the wildness of the Moors and actually the wildness of the Moors takes care of themselves.

如果你有个出色的摄影师，只需把摄像机对准那片风景就行。这部电影的摄影非常优美，那确实是一片迷人的地貌。

If you've got a good cinematographer just stick a camera on that and in this film the cinematography is beautiful but it's also you know that's a lovely landscape.

这部电影精妙之处在于，它让你感受到她的内心世界。

What this does so cleverly is give you a sense of her interior world.

她狂野不羁，但同时也极其精明地为自己的生存需求谋划，因为她身处一个充满压迫的环境，还把那个被强加给她的孩子，取名为已故的儿子的名字。

She's wild but she's also really quite calculating about her own need for self survival because she is brutalised and living in a brutalised place and gives this child who is thrust upon family the name of the son who died.

她亲自为他命名，并说他应该叫希斯克利夫。

She chooses his name and says he should be called Heathcliff.

所以从一开始就有这种非常奇怪的乱伦关系，我认为这部电影处理得非常好，清晰地传达了出来，也让人完全理解。

So there's this incredibly kind of weird incestuous relationship right from the beginning which I think the film does really well and gets across really well and makes so much sense of.

我只是觉得看着雅各布·埃尔罗迪这张脸看两个小时，本身就是一种享受。

I didn't feel Jacob Elordi whilst just a pleasure to look at that man for two hours.

做得真棒。

Just well done.

我没有感受到他内心那种邪恶的驱动力，而在书中，他被仇恨和苦涩所撕裂，他

I didn't feel that I got a massive insight into the evilocity that's driving him which in the book he's he's riven by hatred and bitterness, he's

非常狭隘。

very petty.

他非常报复心强。

He's very vengeful.

他是个如此狭隘的人，但又有点 petty。

He's such a petty man but he's bit petty.

而那个14岁就爱上这本书的女孩，会认为他就是这样的形象，这也是我唯一觉得缺失的地方——我本希望更清楚地展现他的动机，因为那些早期场景非常出色，但当他后来回来时，剪了头发，不再像我认识的那些巴思的咖啡师了。

And this, the 14 year old who loves this is going to be that he's definitely that version and that's the one bit where I was like all the other changes I can see but that I really needed you to show for the 14 year old girls who might end up with terrible men as a result of reading too many books that we all do where you're like oh this is normal and I wanted to see a bit more what's driving him because the early scenes are so good and when he comes back later and he's had his haircut and he's always stopped looking like I don't know a barista from Froome But I live in Bath.

在他说出名字之前，就有很多人喜欢他。

There's a lot of people who like him before he said

他的名字。

his name.

这是一个非常具体的引用。

Was such a specific reference.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

有一个叫吧台小哥的。

There's one called barista who's

哦，

like, oh,

那就是我。

that's me.

我以为她喜欢

Thought she liked

玩我的指甲。

playing my nails.

等一下。

Wait.

等一下。

Wait.

他要去剪头发了，朋友们。

He's gonna get his haircut, guys.

这会非常令人兴奋。

It's gonna be really exciting.

他回来的时候，你会说，是的。

He comes back and you're like, yes.

这完全完美。

That's completely perfect.

所有那些视觉效果都很好。

That's all of the, like, the visuals are really good

而且所有细节都非常好。

and the specifics were all so good.

但我觉得对你来说，有一点点小差距，是的。

But you I think there's just a slight for me Yeah.

有一个缺口，让我觉得我没能完全理解到这一点：这就是希斯克利夫扮演的角色，因为我100%理解了凯瑟琳和其他许多东西。

A gap where I'm like, I'm not getting that final step across, I'm like, this is who Heathcliff playing is because I 100 got Kathy and so many other things.

埃德加的最佳版本。

Edgar, the best version

埃德加的。

of Edgar.

但也是书中和电影中最正派的角色。

But also the most decent character in the book and again in the film.

我们收到了扎拉关于希斯克利夫的一个非常好的问题。

We had this really great question from Zara about Heathcliff.

他一直都非常复杂。

He's he's always been incredibly complex.

他要么是受害者，要么是反派，要么是浪漫英雄，或者三者兼具。

He's either a victim, a villain, a romantic hero, or all three.

是的。

Yeah.

所以跟我们说说你对雅各布·艾洛蒂诠释的看法吧

So tell us about your thoughts about Jacob Elordi's interpretation

是的。

Yeah.

对这些

Of those

元素。

elements.

元素？

Elements?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

就像哈利一样，我觉得他更像是——我的意思是，这部电影很大程度上是从凯西的视角展开的，对吧？

Like Harry, I feel like he is a I mean, this this film is very much from Kathy's perspective, isn't it?

你知道，我们全程都跟着她，而他则时进时出她的世界。

You know, we're on her the whole time and he comes in and out of her world.

相比之下，比如安德里亚·阿诺德的改编版，那就是从他的视角出发的。

As opposed to, for instance, the Andrea Arnold adaptation, which is from his perspective.

在那版里，凯西的戏份少得多，整个故事完全从他的角度展开。

And Kathy is much less of a presence in that, and it's all from his point of view.

所以我想，这大概是一种导演的决策吧，取决于你把重点放在哪里。

So I guess that, you know, that's a directorial decision, I suppose, of how where you put that emphasis.

如果我还有另一个批评的话，那就是我有点希望他们别安排那么多性爱场景，倒不是说我反对经典改编中出现性爱。

If I if I had one other criticism, I think it's that I kind of wish they hadn't had so much sex because not that I've mined sex in classic adaptations.

只是原著里并没有这些内容。

It's just that they don't in the book.

而这正是让她的关系如此诱人且令人心酸的原因之一。

And that's one of the things which really makes her relationship so tantalizing and poignant.

而且你会觉得，这就是他所渴望的——那种深切的关注。

And and you feel like that's what, you know, he's yearning for that for quite Attention.

在她死后。

After Yeah.

她去世后。

Her death.

你知道，他两次挖出她的尸体，只为能与她相拥，因为他只是想要那种身体上的接触。

You know, he he digs up her corpse twice to lie with it because he just wants that physical contact.

当他们在电影中陷入这段炽热的恋情时，我内心一沉，心想，哦，这似乎把故事简化成了一个风流韵事，但实际上，这本书所探讨的远比这更深刻。

And when when they enter this, you know, really torrid affair in the film Yeah.

我内心一沉，因为我觉得这把故事简化成了一个婚外情的故事，而实际上，这本书所讲述的是一些远不那么平凡的东西。

I my heart sank a little bit because I thought, oh, this is I feel like it reduces the story a bit to the story of an affair, whereas actually what the book is is about something sort of less mundane than that.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这是叙事上的一个选择，关于性爱的部分。

I think it's a storytelling choice, the sex.

对。

And Yeah.

而且这部分拍得很好。

And it's it's well done.

他们的化学反应很不错。

Like, the chemistry between them is good.

而在经典的改编作品中，这并不总是如此。

And in in classic adaptations, that's not always the case.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得处理得非常好，但我完全明白你的意思，不过我觉得有些东西必须舍弃，有些东西则必须加入，抱歉。

I thought it worked really well but I know exactly what you mean but I think there are some things you have to lose and some things you have to insert, sorry.

我不是那个意思，但你知道我的意思，为了让观众在视觉上更好地体会

I didn't mean it that bad but you know what I mean, to get the audience to visually appreciate

是的。

Yeah.

就是它本来会是什么样子。

Just what it would have been like.

对。

Yes.

我总是对艾米莉·勃朗特特别感兴趣，她写这部作品时还只是个二十多岁的年轻女性，几乎没怎么出过远门，只去过寄宿学校当老师。

I am so interested all the time in how Emily Bronte who was, you know, a young woman in her twenties when she wrote it and who had been hardly anywhere, she went to like boarding schools to be a teacher.

她去过寄宿学校，后来姐妹们相继去世，接着她去教书，但每次外出都以失败告终；之后她去布鲁塞尔待了两年，那段时间非常艰难，她并不喜欢那里。

She went to boarding schools and then all her sisters died and then she went to teach and it was always a disaster whenever she went anywhere and then she went to Brussels for two years and that was very difficult and she didn't enjoy it.

她始终渴望待在家里，一直如此。她是个极其狂野的人，我想现在人们如此喜爱她，部分原因在于‘女性重归野性’这一趋势——人们很容易与艾米莉的野性产生共鸣。在哈沃斯的商店里，你可以买到各种徽章，上面写着艾米莉、安妮或夏洛特的名字。

She always wanted to be at home, always and she was this incredibly wild person and I think the reason she's sort of one of the more popular you know and in Haworth in the shop you can pick badges depending on which you know just says Emily or Anne or Charlotte.

现在人们如此喜爱她的一个原因，是这种‘女性重归野性’的潮流，大家将她视为一个极其狂野的人。我总是很好奇，她是否在某种程度上将自己看作希斯克利夫？

One of the reasons people love her so much now is this sort of rewilding of women that people identify a lot with the wildness of Emily, they see her as this very wild person and I'm always so interested in did she see herself as Heathcliff?

写希斯克利夫是否让她得以触碰内心那原始而狂野的部分？与此同时，她又是个非常能干的管家——在姨妈去世后，她承担了大量家务，极其细致严谨。她们姐妹三人个个都擅长持家，即便经济拮据、疾病缠身、亲人相继离世，她们依然努力营造出整洁有序的家。来访者总是对这一点赞叹不已。因此，我忍不住想，写希斯克利夫——这或许有些牵强——但我不止一次怀疑，这不仅是对荒原景观的化身，更是她像现代人去音乐节释放自我、或通过某些行为接触内心隐秘部分那样，去拥抱自己内在的狂野。

Writing Heathcliff did it allow her to access that wild primitive part of herself because at the same time she was a very very able housekeeper you know she ended up doing a lot of the stuff after their aunt died and she was very very precise they were all very good at housekeeping they were all obsessed with like keeping things neat and tidy and making sure that with hardly any money and you know, being ill all the time and dying that they were making a home that was neat and people who visit always comment on that and so I wonder if writing Heathcliff, this may be a stretch, but I often wonder if writing Heathcliff not only is it the embodiment of the Moors in this landscape but it's her like accessing just as people go to festivals now and lose themselves or we do things now we know it's a part of ourselves, we don't mind it.

但我喜欢他，因为我可能觉得他是个糟糕的人。

But I I'm fond of him because I might think he's a terrible person.

他因为多种原因本该被关进监狱。

He should be in prison for multiple, multiple different reasons.

但我喜欢他认为代表的，当艾米丽写作时，他让她得以释放内心的一些东西。

But I'm fond of what I think he represents to to Emily writing away, you know, and what he enabled her to sort of loosen within herself.

我希望他不是以她哥哥布兰韦尔为原型，但我一直这么认为。

I hope he's not based on the worst man in the entire world, her brother Branwell, but that's how I always see it.

我在重读这部作品时注意到的一点是，所有角色在某种程度上都令人反感。

Something that I really noticed again on a reread of this was just how hateful all of the characters are in some capacity or another.

是的。

Yeah.

当你和别人谈论它时，你会说，嗯，每个人都很糟糕。

And it's so interesting, like, when you're talking to people about it, you're like, well, everyone's awful.

每个人都很糟糕。

Everyone is awful.

你不喜欢他们中的任何一个。

You don't like any of them.

你之前谈到过，人们常常需要一个富有同情心的女性主角，我认为这确实在发生变化，是的。

You were talking about the need for, like, a sympathetic female protagonist often, which I think is definitely changing Yeah.

尤其是在过去的几年里。

Especially in the last kind of few years.

但你能谈谈小说中对这种角色的需求与电影中的区别吗？

But can you talk about the need for that in a novel versus a film?

你觉得我们是否更愿意原谅那些完全可憎的角色？

Do you think that we are maybe more forgiving of having characters who are all absolutely despicable?

因为他们确实如此，但你看，我们对凯西和希斯克利夫却抱有如此高的评价。

Because they are and yet, look at them, how kind of, in a high regard we hold Kathy and Heathcliff.

是的。

Yeah.

我我不

I don't I don't

我觉得我们总是对反派很着迷，不是吗？

I think we're always quite attracted to villains, aren't we?

比如撒旦和《失乐园》，或者陀思妥耶夫斯基笔下那些扭曲的角色，我们却完全被他们吸引。

And, you know, you think of Satan and Paradise Lost or, you know, Dostoevsky where they're all grotesque and yet we're kind of totally sort of gripped by them.

而且显然，埃梅拉尔德·芬内尔也是这样，因为《桑伯恩》中的巴里·基根这个角色很糟糕，但你根本移不开眼睛。

And and I think clearly, Emerald Fennell is too because the Barry Kiergan character in Sorburne is awful, but you can't take your eyes off him.

他就是完全具有磁性。

He's just totally magnetic.

所以我不确定。

So I don't know.

我觉得我们都喜欢反派，对吧？

I think I think we all like villain, don't we?

确实如此。

We do.

而且当我做创意写作讲座时，我总会提到‘汉尼拔·莱克特效应’，我们都清楚汉尼拔·莱克特是个坏人。

And there's the when I'm doing creative writing talks, whatever, I always talk about the Hannibal Lecter factor, which is we all know Hannibal Lecter's a bad person.

对吧？

Right?

我们知道他是个连环杀手。

We know he's a serial killer.

我们不希望他越狱，但如果不对他产生一点兴趣，不关心他能否获得更多的主动权、战胜医生、揭开更多真相，这本书和电影都不会这么吸引人。

We don't want him to escape from jail but that book would not be interesting and we would not stick with it nor the film if we weren't just slightly interested in him achieving some more agency and getting one over on the doctor and finding out a bit more

关于他。

about him.

我们知道他很坏，但正是你如何塑造坏人，才让他变得有趣，而且我觉得巴里·基根就是个完美的例子，因为他即使不杀人的时候，也在吃人，而且他根本不算好人。

We know he's bad, we but it's what you do with bad people that makes him interesting and yeah and I think Barry Gergen is such, yeah, perfect example because when he's not killer, he's eating people but he's not particularly nice.

这部电影里没人特别讨人喜欢，但你就是会一直看下去，我觉得这也反映了勃朗特姐妹所处的非凡境遇——她们根本没学过需要把自己塑造成讨人喜欢的样子。

No one in that film is particularly nice but you you watch and I think it also speaks to that that just completely remarkable situation of the Brontes which is they hadn't learnt that they needed to present themselves as likable.

你知道夏洛特，我总觉得她这个人很难让人喜欢，我读过很多关于她的资料，但她却很容易让人爱上。

You know Charlotte, I always think with Charlotte she's quite difficult to like as a person and I've read loads about her but she's very easy to love.

听起来她挺刺头的，相当固执，就是这样，而艾米莉则简直像个疯子，实际上我越来越欣赏她，她一边谋生，一边写出了《呼啸山庄》——顺便说一句，这是一部极其伟大的小说，而夏洛特还为它写了一篇极其刻薄的序言，不是吗？

Know, sounds quite sort of prickly, she's rather you know dogmatic, she's kind of this and Emily just sounds bonkers and actually I increasingly have a lot of time and just off earning a living and then writing Tenant of Wuthering Hall which is by the way a deeply great novel which Charlotte also wrote an incredibly rude forward to and was up didn't she?

这本书令人反感，因为你知道她谈到女性应该有权利离开那个酗酒并殴打她的丈夫。

This book is disgusting because you know she talks about how a woman should be able to leave her alcoholic husband who's beating her up.

她真的让我感到遗憾，她不是我妹妹，我真的不认同我们对这个问题的看法。

She's just really sorry she's not my sister, I really don't like our view of a problem with that.

她在写序言时，甚至比在《呼啸山庄》中表现得更加明显：她们成长于如此封闭的环境中，对外界一无所知，也从未学会如何适应它。当夏洛特获得一些名声和成功、前往伦敦时，她发现那里非常奇怪，难以融入。

And she descends it even more than she slightly does with Wuthering Heights when she writes the foreword They to were growing up in such a vacuum, they found the outside world, they hadn't really learnt to adjust to it and by the time Charlotte had some fame and success and went to London, she found it quite odd and difficult to fit in.

她见到了法·雷之类的人，却不知该跟他们说些什么，因为她早已习惯了做自己。

She met Fat Ray and people and she's bit like I don't know what to say to all of them because she's just so used to being herself.

所以这些小说里，你知道，《简·爱》并不特别讨人喜欢，罗切斯特更是百分之百不讨人喜欢。

And that's why the novels, you know Jane Eyre isn't particularly likable, Rochester is a thousand percent not likable.

读过《藻海无边》的人都知道，书中唯一真正讨人喜欢的角色就是伯莎·梅森，这也是这些人物如此有趣和非凡的原因之一。

As people who've read Wide Sargasso Sea know, like the only really likable person in that is Bertha Mason and that's one of the reasons they're so interesting and extraordinary.

她们从小没有接受过跳四对方舞、行屈膝礼、说‘先生您好，您怎么样？’这类社交训练。

They hadn't been brought up going to quadrilles and curtsying and saying hello sir, how are you?

她们从小看到的，是村里人不断死于斑疹伤寒，自己的兄弟姐妹也相继死于肺结核，你知道的。

They'd just brought up seeing people die all the time of typhus in the village and their own siblings die of consumption, you know.

这是一种艰难的生活方式，根本没给你机会去关心别人的新帽子是哪里买的，反而省去了这些麻烦。

It's a hard way to live your life and it doesn't leave you much chance to be like oh I must enquire after where your new bonnet is from, it saves

你的表情因此完美地保持了平静。

your face so perfectly.

但那是礼貌，一种礼貌；而另一种则是故意把痛苦强加给别人，因为你自己正经历痛苦，所以你也想让所有人都和你一样痛苦。

But that's manners, That's kind of manners and then there's also deliberately heaping misery on another person for the sake of you're having miserable time, you want everybody else to be miserable with you.

我觉得这在内莉身上体现得特别明显。

Which I think in, I think with Nelly.

内莉，我很少听到有人谈论她，她可是《呼啸山庄》中不可或缺的角色，甚至比凯瑟琳和希斯克利夫更重要，但在文学讨论中，她却常常被忽视，我觉得是这样。

Nelly, I've not really heard many people talk about Nelly, she is so much a part of Wuthering Heights, so much more than Cathy and Heathcliff and yet, she is very overlooked in kind of literary conversations, I think.

在电影中，洪潮出色地演绎了内莉，但说实话，我在电影里对她产生了更多的共鸣。

Is played brilliantly by Hong Chao in the film, but again, I actually found I had more empathy with her much more in the film Yeah.

因为你看到了她的处境，有了更多的背景信息。

Because you see where You have some context.

是的。

Yes.

在书中，我觉得她非常可恶，我讨厌她，但又因为她的八卦方式以及我们是通过她的视角来了解故事而某种程度上喜欢她，你不得不不断重新评估她所说的话，因为这些都是从她口中说出的，而电影并不是奈莉的故事。

In the book, she, I find is horrendous and I hate her and I kind of, you know, love her for her gossipy ways and the fact that we're kind of hearing it through her eyes and you're kind of having to constantly reassess what she's saying because it's through her mouth and the film is not Nelly's story.

但是，是的，告诉我你对奈莉这个角色的看法。

But, yes, tell me your thoughts about Nelly as a character.

嗯，我同意。

Well, yeah, I agree.

我认为她的表演非常出色，她在小说中是一个非常不可靠的叙述者，而且她存在一些故意隐瞒的行为，没有告诉人们那些本可以改变事件走向的事情。

I think it's a brilliant performance and she is, you know, she is a very unreliable narrator in the novel, and there are sort of sins of omission where she fails to tell people things which would change the course of events.

我认为艾梅拉德·芬内尔在这方面做得非常好，清晰地呈现了这一点。

And I think Emerald Fennell's done a great job of kind of really just clarifying that.

她的一种做法是提升了奈莉的社会地位。

One way she's done that is by elevating her social status.

尽管她是私生女，但她的社会地位却与凯茜相当。

So she's even though she's an illegitimate child, she's on a kind of the same kind of level as social level as Kathy.

这样一来就拉平了地位，但当希斯克利夫到来时，她却被冷落了。

So that sort of equals, and then she gets snubbed when Heathcliff arrives.

这种童年的嫉妒催生了整个故事，而这一点在书中并不存在，尽管内莉自认为是某种养姐妹。

And that childhood jealousy leads to this whole story, which is is not an aspect of the book, you know, even though Nelly is a sees herself as a kind of foster sister.

因为我觉得她母亲是凯西的奶妈，但我觉得这种设定非常出色。

Because I think her her mother was Kathy's wet nurse or but there's a sort of but I think that works extremely well.

我还想，上世纪五十年代是否有一篇美国学者的文章，名叫《呼啸山庄的反派》，文中将内莉视为终极反派，她操控了整个局面，最终掌控了这两座庄园，悠然自得地喝着茶。

And there is there there was I wonder if there was an article by an American academic in the fifties called The Villain of Wuthering Heights, where he looks at Nelly as the sort of the ultimate villain who's kind of controlled this whole situation, ends up in basically in control of both these houses, sitting pretty drinking drinking tea.

喝茶。

Tea.

而且，是的，我觉得把这一点更明显地展现出来非常巧妙，尤其是在我看来……

And, yeah, I think that was really clever to bring that out more in I the

我认为，这部电影与小说之间的对话正是以如此精彩而优美方式呈现的。在小说中，对于没读过的人而言，她几乎对所有坏事负有责任，因为她没有——正如你所说——传递那个至关重要的信息：希斯克利夫误听或根本没听到最关键的部分，而那本可以阻止他发疯、毁掉几代人的生活。

think it's one of the ways in which the dialogue between this film and the novel is really brilliantly beautifully done because in the book, for people who haven't read it, she's sort of responsible for everything going wrong because she doesn't, as you say, she doesn't pass on this quite crucial piece of information that Heathcliff's misheard or hasn't heard the more relevant bit that he needed to hear to persuade him to not go insane and ruin everyone's lives for generations.

这一切都系于一个极其微小、极其微小的细节上。

Just all hangs a very, very small, very small hook.

但我喜欢埃梅拉尔德·芬内尔的做法，她知道，如果我们爱这本书，我们就会懂。

But I love the way Emerald Fennell is kind of, she knows we'll know that if we love the book.

是的。

Yes.

对于那些没读过这本书的人，她把故事整理得更清晰了。

And for those who don't know the book, she sort of tidied it up.

明年将出版一本名为《内莉》的书。

There is a book coming out next year called Nelly.

这本书完全是她的视角，

It's just from her,

是的。

yeah.

我的意思是，这本书是从她的视角写的，我的意思是，是的。

I mean that book's from her perspective, I mean Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

《呼啸山庄》是内莉的视角。

Wuthering Heights is Nelly's perspective.

不过我喜欢这个想法。

I love that idea though.

她才是这部作品中的反派。

That that that she's the villain of the piece

她非常出色。

of She has good of brilliant.

但她确实就是。

But she absolutely is.

总之，我

Anyway, I

我的意思是，是的。

I mean Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

在其他所有事情中都被淡忘了。

Sort of forgotten in everything else.

我们来谈谈吧，回到这部电影，特别是艾梅拉德在视觉上做出的一些决定，我的天啊。

We let's talk about let's go back to the film and specifically some of the decisions that Emerald for now made visually because, oh my goodness.

是的。

Yes.

服装。

The costumes.

是的。

Yes.

布景。

The set.

我的意思是，首先谈谈呼啸山庄本身。

I mean, talk about the set first of all, Wuthering Heights itself.

你觉得她是否成功地传达了我们感受到的那种孤立感？

Do you think that she manages to encapsulate the isolation that we feel?

你提到过荒原，说它们自己在诉说着什么。

You talked about the Moors, about how they speak for themselves.

她为呼啸山庄设计了一种非常独特的视觉风格。

She has a very specific look that for Wuthering Heights.

这个效果对你们来说怎么样？

Did that work for you guys?

对我来说完全奏效。

A 100% worked for me.

是的。

Yeah.

因为你们一下子就置身其中了。

Because you're in there straight away.

整部影片对视角的运用非常有趣。

There's really interesting use of perspective the whole time.

画面中充满了各种斜线，引导观众的视线进入画面中心。

There's lots of sort of diagonal lines leading you into the centre of the picture.

画面中有很多类似维米尔作品的视觉参考。

There's lots of visual references to things like Vermeers.

画面非常静谧，很多人坐在周围，你会想：我是不是以前见过这种场景？这可能是伦勃朗的画作，也可能是一支流行音乐视频。

It's quite still, lots of people are kind of sitting around and you think is that I've seen that before and it might be a Rembrandt painting or it might be a pop video.

你知道她是一位极具视觉表现力的导演，真是非同凡响。

You know she's such a beautifully visual director, it's extraordinary.

所以你看完之后并不会感到感官过载，而原著在很多地方恰恰是对感官的强烈冲击。你就像吃了一顿极其丰富、精致、层次分明的盛宴，但关于房屋的设定——你知道，电影里的房子和书中的完全不一样——但如果你像我一样热爱这本书并能与之产生共鸣，你就会明白：哦，我懂你为什么这样处理，我感谢你，因为我能看出你的用意，而且我真的特别喜欢老电影。

So you leave having had this it's not an assault on the senses and the book is actually an assault on the senses in lots of places that you've just like you've eaten this incredibly rich beautiful multi layered meal but the decisions about the house, you know the house does not bear any resemblance to the house in the book but if you love the book as I do and sort of relate to it, you just are so like yes I can see why you've done that and I thank you for it because I can see what you're doing and I really love old films.

我喜欢1950年代那种宏大风格的东西，比如道格拉斯·塞克的作品，电影里有很多这种视觉盛宴的元素，还带有一点《汉默恐怖片》的氛围，而我特别喜欢的是，它从不刻意炫耀、用蛮力告诉你‘看我多聪明’，这正是我最欣赏的地方——它只是静静地存在，你想看就看，不想看也无所谓。

I love like 1950s big things and things like Douglas Cirque and everything, there's a lot of that kind of visual feast aspect of and House of Hammer horror kind of vibe as well, which I, yeah, isn't done to bash you over the head and say look how clever I am, that's what I really like about it, it just sort of is there and you take it if you want to and you don't if you don't.

是的。

Yeah.

还有马丁·克鲁尼斯。

And Martin Clunes.

还有马丁·克鲁尼斯。

And Martin Clunes.

克鲁恩斯。

Clunes.

我特别喜欢这一点，你知道，这完全不是我们从书里读到的，或者你脑海中想象的《呼啸山庄》。

I kind of love that, you know, it's not at all the Wuthering Heights that we read in the book or the one that you might have in your head.

但能有别人对它的诠释，多么令人兴奋啊。

But how exciting to have somebody else's Yes.

独特的视角。

Vision of it.

我觉得，整部电影看起来简直美得惊人，因为有太多画面深深印在我的记忆里，比如凯西走过荒原时，她的裙子在石楠花上飘动的那一刻，或者那些水蛭的场景。

I think, I mean, the whole film just looks absolutely stunning because there's so many just sort of screenshots that are stuck in my memory, like her like, that moment when Kathy's walking across the moors and her dress is, like, floating over the heather or the moment with the leeches.

天啊。

My god.

它只是会

It's just gonna

永远留在我心里。

stick with me forever.

而且我

And I

我觉得在布景方面，桑德森庄园简直太棒了。

think in terms of the sets, Thrushcross Grange, I thought, was incredible.

你知道，那是一座有着奇怪房间的房子，里面还有一个玩具屋，而玩具屋里又套着一个小玩具屋，感觉像是某种可怕的……

Know, it was like that it's sort of bizarre sort of house of strange rooms with and then with the doll's house inside, it was like a sort of and you've and the doll's house inside the doll's house, and you felt like it was this sort of terrible sort of

套娃一样的东西。

Nesting doll thing.

没错。

Exactly.

还有手从壁炉里伸出来，这明显是对窗户中伸出的手的精彩致敬。

And hands coming out of the fireplace, which is obviously a great reference to the hand through the window.

当然。

Of course.

然后她自然地做出了这个联系。

And then she made that connection, of course.

当然。

Of course.

Of

Of

到处都是手。

There's hands everywhere.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为桑菲尔德和呼啸山庄之间的对比非常好。

And I think the contrast between Thrushcross and Wuthering Heights was really good.

我对呼啸山庄的实际建筑不太确定。

I the actual House Of Wuthering Heights, I'm not sure.

并不是特别喜欢。

Was quite such a fan.

我发现了那些釉面砖

I found those glazed bricks

是的。

Yeah.

让我想起了那种那种

Reminded me of sort of sort of

一把凿子。

A chisel.

对。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

是的。

Yeah.

那些瓷砖。

The tiles.

它稍微让我有点出戏，但我确实很喜欢周围那些奇特的岩石构造。

It sort of took me out of it a bit, but but I did love those sort of crazy, like, rock formations around it.