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欢迎来到《偶然的培训师》播客，在这里您将听到关于如何开始和拓展您的培训事业的第一手故事和建议。
Welcome to the Accidental Trainer, a podcast where you'll hear firsthand stories and tips on how to start and grow your training career.
欢迎回到ATD偶然培训师播客的又一期节目。
Welcome back to another episode of ATD accidental trainer podcast.
我是您的主持人，亚历山大里亚·克拉普。
I am your host, Alexandria Clapp.
今天，我们邀请到了朱莉娅·菲兰。
And today, we have with us Julia Phelan.
朱莉娅是Two Eleven的联合创始人，也是一位学习科学家，致力于优化学习效果。
Julia is the cofounder of two eleven, and she's a learning scientist who works to optimize learning outcomes.
你好，朱莉娅。
Hi, Julia.
你好。
Hi.
很高兴来到这里。
Nice to be here.
非常感谢你加入我们。
Thank you so much for joining us.
我们暂时中断了播客一段时间，所以能和你一起回归，并讨论我最喜爱的话题——学习科学，我感到非常兴奋。
We've taken a little break from the podcast, so I'm so excited to return with you and one of my favorite topics, just talking about the science of learning.
每当我想要聊这个话题时，你都是我首选的专家。
You are one of my go to experts when I wanna chat about this.
你作为志愿者，加入了我们大型会议的顾问委员会，帮助评审学习科学相关的提案。
You are on our advisory committee for our big conference as a volunteer to help review the learning science proposal.
因此，我非常期待能和你聊聊学习。
So I'm so excited to chat with you about learning.
但首先，让我们来聊聊你。
But first, let's talk a little bit about you.
你是如何走到今天这个职位的？
How did you land in your current role?
在你的旅程中，哪些是意外的转折？
What was accidental in your journey?
我觉得我生活中几乎每件事都带点偶然性。
I feel like almost everything in my life is somewhat accidental.
但我当年在加州大学洛杉矶分校主修心理学。
But I was an undergrad at UCLA in psychology.
当我完成学位后，我想，也许我该回英国了，因为我来自英国，而且在这里已经待了好几年。
And when I finished that degree, I thought, well, maybe I'll move back to England because I'm, you I'm from England and I've been here for a few years.
我申请了一份工作，但没被录用。
And I applied for one job and I didn't get it.
于是我心想，我根本找不到工作，只能去读研了。
And I thought, well, I'm unemployable, so I'm gonna have to go to grad school.
在我本科最后一年，我选了一门心理学与教育学的课程，非常喜欢。
And I'd taken a course psychology and education in my last year of my undergrad degree, and I loved it.
这门课主要研究其他国家哪些教学方法有效，以及为什么其他国家的学生——尤其是当时在数学方面——表现得更好。
And it was a course all about figuring out what's working in other countries and why is it that students in other countries, especially in math at the time, were doing so much better.
这极大地激发了我对教育与心理学交叉领域的兴趣。
And it really piqued my interest, you know, in the education and sort of psychology intersection.
但我当时把这件事搁置了，直到我没得到申请的那份工作，才申请了研究生，我只申请了一个地方——加州大学洛杉矶分校，并在那里获得了教育学博士学位。
But I'd kind of put that on the back burner, but when I didn't get this one job that I applied for, I applied to grad school, I only applied to one place, went to UCLA, got my PhD in education.
我深受这门课程经历的驱动，但后来我开始研究自闭症群体，研究患有唐氏综合征的孩子以及其他类似情况的学生，试图弄清楚这些孩子在学习方面会面临哪些影响等等。
And I was really driven by this experience that I had had in this course, but I started working with autistic populations, researching students, children who had Down syndrome and all sorts of different things like that and trying to figure out, you know, what are the ramifications for that when it comes to how those children are learning, etcetera.
然后在某个时候，我脑海中一直有个想法，那就是我真的很想更深入地探索学习这个领域。
And then somewhere kind of in there, I just always had this idea in the back of my head that I really wanted to dive a little bit more deeply into learning.
于是，事情就这样顺其自然地发生了。
And so that's just kind of what ended up happening.
之后，我在加州大学洛杉矶分校的一个研究中心工作了很多很多年。
And I ended up working at a research center at UCLA for many, many, many years.
是和约克夫妇一起吗？
Is that with the Yorks?
不是。
No.
我跟伊丽莎白一起工作。
So I worked with Elizabeth.
我在研究生期间担任过研究方法与心理学课程的教学助理。
I was the teaching fellow for a research methods and psychology class while I was in grad school.
所以我跟她共事了一段时间，这非常棒，因为那是一门心理学专业学生都必须修的硬核课程，但真的深入钻研了研究方法。
So I worked with her for a while and that was super cool because it was the really tough course that everybody had to take as a psychology major, but, yeah, really digging into research methods.
是的。
Yeah.
这很棒。
It was great.
能认识她真是太好了，而且她的工作显然极具影响力，但我当时在一家名为Cress的中心工作，那是研究中心评估标准与学生测评中心。
It was great to get to know her and, I mean, her work is obviously really influential, but I worked at a center called Cress, which is the center for research evaluation standards and student testing.
那正是我大量投入工作的地方，思考如何将标准、课程评估和教师专业发展协调一致，真正思考如何构建一个整体性的框架，让这段旅程中的每一个环节都更加有效。
And that was really where I did a lot of work on, you know, thinking about aligning, you know, standards and curriculum assessments and professional development and really thinking about how do we create a holistic picture that is going to make each of those sort of pieces of that journey that much more effective.
你知道，当时我常挂在嘴边的一句话是，大家都在谈论评估。
You know, one of my big sort of mantras at the time was, you know, everyone was talking about assessment.
当你跟老师聊评估时，他们会说，哦，评估。
And assessment, you you talk to teachers, and they'd like, oh, you know, assessment.
我总是希望‘评估’不会成为一个贬义词。
And I always wished that assessment didn't have to be a dirty word.
要知道，如果我们从标准、教学、学生学习到评估、专业发展，整个链条都紧密衔接，那么评估就不应该成为问题。
Know, assessment, if we are creating the whole pipeline in the right way from the standards to the teaching and what students are doing to the assessment, professional development, if all of that is really tightly aligned, then assessment shouldn't be a problem.
它不应该是让教师必须匆忙准备的东西。
It shouldn't be something that, teachers have to rush and prepare for.
它应该是他们完成任何教学任务后自然迎来的阶段。
It should be something that is just natural progression that they get to at the end of whatever they're doing.
因此，我在这一领域做了大量工作，并开始更深入地思考专家模式，以及我们能从各个领域的专家身上学到什么，专家思维模式如何帮助我们构建一种层级化的课程结构。
And so I did a lot of work in in that area and then really started thinking a lot more about models of expertise and what we can learn from experts in all sorts of different fields and how models of expert thinking can help us shape a hierarchical structure in a way of a curriculum.
所以，我是这样思考教学的：好吧。
And so how can we think about teaching in terms of the way I would think about it a lot was, okay.
如果你只有短短一周时间来教授入门生物学，你会希望学生掌握哪些内容呢？
If you only had, you know, a week to teach somebody introductory biology, like, what would be the things that you would want them to know?
这个问题是有答案的。
And there is an answer to that.
尽管有时人们不愿意承认，但确实如此。
And even though sometimes people don't want to acknowledge that, but there really is.
所以如果你去问专家，他们会说，好吧。
And so if you talk to experts, they'd say, okay.
如果我只有一周时间，对他们来说最重要的是要掌握这些、这些和这些。
Well, if I only had a week, it would be really important for them to know this, this, and this.
我认为，当我们能以这种方式构建课程时，想想，好吧。
And I think when we can structure our curricula in that way of thinking about, okay.
让我们思考一下层级结构是什么，而不是，好吧，第一章是什么？
Let's think about what the hierarchical structure is rather than, okay, what's chapter one?
然后我们只是勉强地逐章推进，这会产生很大的影响。
And we're gonna kinda trudge through that, that that can be really impactful.
因此，我当时开始做的很多工作都是这样，某种程度上是偶然的。
So that was a lot of the work that I started doing there, and much of it was accidental in some way.
你知道的？
You know?
我小时候并没有醒来就想着，是的，我要成为一名学习科学家。
It wasn't like I woke up as a young girl and thought, yeah, I'm gonna be a learning scientist.
是的。
Yeah.
环游世界，我知道，做了很多学习科学方面的工作。
Traveling the world, I know, doing a lot of the science of learning work.
所以深入探讨这个话题真是太有趣了。
So this is so fun to dig into this topic.
我意识到有些人可能没有接触过，也不了解比约克夫妇及其研究。
And I'm realizing some folks might not have contacts and not know who the Bjork's are, their research.
我知道，因为我在本科时学的是心理学，后来在我之前的机构研究学习科学时，我们经常引用他们的记忆研究。
I do because I studied psychology in undergrad, and then I went on, studied the science of learning at my old organization, and we referred to their research and memory a lot.
有些人可能不太了解，但他们可能会欣赏记忆研究并理解这些原理。
There are folks who may not they might appreciate memory research and understand principles.
但他们在学习时，也许只参加过为期一周的记忆课程。
But when they were learning, maybe they took a week long course on memory.
也许大家只是想知道这些研究者是谁，是谁提出了这个术语。
Maybe the nice to know was who the researchers were, who coined the term.
所以他们可能根本没听说过。
So it might not be on their radar.
我们之前聊过，你说你和打喷嚏玩一个像电铃一样的游戏。
We had had a prior conversation before where you said that you have this, like, electric buzzer kind of game that you play with sneeze.
你能给我们讲讲这个故事吗？
Will you tell us that story?
我觉得你能把这个点讲得特别好。
I think you'll do it justice to this point.
关于这一点，稍微说点背景：我们常常忘记，那些不在我们圈子里的人，并不会像我们一样看待世界，他们知道或不知道什么。
One thing as a perhaps a little backstory for that, a lot of us forget what people who aren't in our world are not walking around in our shoes, what they know or don't know.
我们都这样。
And we all do it.
只是，你知道的，我们都有自己的简略表达方式。
It's just, you know, we have our own short hands.
所以你知道，当你在公司工作时，会使用缩略语和一些特定的快捷表达。
And so, you know, when you work in a company, you use acronyms and you use, like, certain shortcuts.
但当你与刚进入某个环境、并不熟悉你所处世界的人交流时，一定要时刻提醒自己：如果我用了‘smee’这个词，大家都知道我在说什么吗？
But, you know, when you are interacting with somebody who is new to a particular environment or isn't necessarily walking around in the world that you're walking around in, it's so important to always have in the back of your mind, okay, if I use the word smee or something, then does everybody know what I'm talking about?
可能知道，也可能不知道，但我总是倾向于要么不用这些术语，要么至少先说‘smee’，然后说明它指的是‘领域专家’，确保我的默认做法是解释清楚。
Maybe, maybe not, but I always like to on the side of either not using those terms or at least saying smee and then that means subject matter expert and just making sure that my default is to say that.
在做演示时，我总会准备一个大大的‘禁止’标志——就是那个圆圈加斜线的符号，中间写着‘jog’这个词。
And when I do presentations, I always have I have one of those big no sign, like the round thing with a line through it, and I have the word jog and, like, written in the middle of that.
我总是告诉人们：好吧。
And I always tell people, okay.
如果我说了什么不易理解或听起来像行话的内容，我希望你们能直接指出来。
If I say something that's not accessible or you think is jargony, like, I want you to tell me.
同样地，当我跟别人交流时，比如我正在和一位领域专家讨论，我们想共同规划一门课程或某个项目，我会对他们说：好吧。
So similarly, when I'm talking to somebody, let's say I'm talking to somebody who is a subject matter expert and maybe we are trying to outline a course or outline something that we want to work on together, I'll tell them, I'll say, okay.
你来给我解释一下，比如说，怎么烤舒芙蕾，假设是这样。
You explain to me, let's say, it's how do you cook a souffle, let's say.
我会说，我想让你向我解释一下。
And I'll say, you know, I want you to explain it to me.
每当你跳过一步，或者说到‘分开蛋清蛋黄’之类的话时，我可能不明白这是什么意思，这时我脑子里就会出现一个虚拟的、类似电击棒的东西。
And every time you say something where you skip a step or you say something like separate the eggs, maybe I don't know what that means, I have this virtual, like, little it's like electric shock cattle prodder or something.
每当他们说到什么，我就会说，你知道的，然后发出那个提示‘不行’的蜂鸣声。
And I and every time they say something, I'll be like, you know, and give them the little buzzer that says, no.
不行。
No.
不行。
No.
你刚刚跳过了某个步骤，或者说了我不理解的东西。
You just skipped something or you just said something that I don't understand.
所以，当我们思考教学或与新手互动时，始终记住这一点非常有用：对你来说任何领域中习以为常的事情，对别人来说未必如此。
And so, you know, when we think about teaching or having any interactions with novices, it's just a really useful mindset to always remember that, you know, stuff that feels second nature and natural to you in any domain is not necessarily so for everybody else.
因此，要始终牢记这一点。
And so to keep that in mind always.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
所以我想要跳到这个例子，因为我们刚刚模拟了一个小例子。
So I wanted to jump to that example because we had just sort of modeled a little mini example.
我想对我们的听众说，朱莉娅可以在学习科学这个大主题下谈论很多内容。
And I will say for our listeners that Julia could talk about so many things under the science of learning umbrella.
这每次我们交谈时都是我们对话的一部分。
And that is a little bit of our conversations each time we talk.
而且所有这些内容都是相互关联的。
And it's all interconnected.
它们全都交织在一起。
It's all woven together.
所以我们一直在犹豫，是该讨论专家与新手的区别，这个我们已经提到了，还是该讨论看似容易与困难的事情，以及是否应该如此？
So we were toying between, do we talk about experts versus novices, which we're already mentioning, and things looking easy versus hard, and should it be?
我知道朱莉娅非常热衷于一个观点，那就是学习是困难的，这是她的座右铭。
So one thing that I know that Julia is really passionate about is that learning is hard, and that is her mantra.
但这并不是坏事。
And that's not a bad thing.
所以我知道，朱莉娅，你会帮助我们理解为什么事情不应该感觉轻松，我们会探讨为什么努力很重要，为什么情境很重要，为什么学科专家很重要，而他们 alone 并不能保证带来出色的学习体验。
So I know, Julia, you're gonna help us understand why things shouldn't feel easy, and we're gonna talk through why the struggle matters, why context matters, why subject matter experts matter, and them alone won't guarantee a great learning experience.
我们会跳跃式地讨论，但所有内容都会相互关联。
We're gonna bounce around, but it's all gonna be connected.
希望听众们能带走一个可以尝试的想法，而不仅仅是一个新的公式或新食谱，因为朱莉娅也会告诉我们，为什么这些并不是出色学习设计的关键。
And hopefully, folks walk away with an idea to play around with that's not just a new formula or new recipe because Julia's gonna tell us why that's not the key to great learning design experiences as well.
所以我们最好深入探讨一下。
So we better dig in.
我们先从为什么你说学习是困难的开始，再回溯一点。
Let's start with why do you say learning is hard and to go back one thing.
所以跟我们说说吧。
So tell us.
当我们假设学习应该感觉轻松时，我们错在哪里？
What do we get wrong when we assume learning should feel easy?
你为什么说这是你的座右铭？
Why are you saying this is your mantra?
我还有一个小补充。
So I have a little second piece of it.
学习是困难的，而困难就是学习。
Like, learning is hard and hard is learning.
当你在做一件感觉困难的事情时，那正是你在学习和改变的时候。
So when you're doing something that feels hard, that is when you're learning and changing.
我举个例子，比如有个人在学弹钢琴，正在学习一首曲子，你知道，这首曲子可能有一部分比较简单，另一部分则更难。
And I'll give an example of let's say you've got somebody who is learning how to play the piano, and they're learning a piece and they've you know, maybe there's an easy part of the piano piece, and then there's a more difficult part.
也许难点出现在中间部分。
Maybe the difficult part comes in the middle.
所以，他们一直以来的学习方式是先掌握比较简单的一部分，然后再去攻克更难的部分。
And so, you know, the way they've been learning it is they're mastering the the easier part first, and then they're gonna kinda get into the more difficult piece.
当他们练习已经掌握的那段时，因为已经精通了这个简单的部分，所以感觉很好。
And when they're practicing, piece that they've already got, they've mastered this easy bit, like, feels good to them.
对吧？
Right?
你在演奏它。
You're you're playing it.
听起来不错。
It sounds good.
感觉很好。
It feels good.
一切都很好。
Everything's happy.
我心想：太棒了！
I'm like, yay.
我状态很棒。
I'm great.
然后我到了困难的部分，这时候就觉得，啊，之前那段这么简单、流畅、舒服，可现在遇到这段困难的，真的很难，听起来也不如之前的段落好。
And then I get to the difficult part, and now it's like, ah, like, this other part felt so easy and fluid and nice, and now I get to this difficult piece, and that's really difficult, and it doesn't sound as good as the other parts.
所以，你知道，你已经不在技术练习阶段了。
So, you know You're not in technical anymore.
我要把这段保存下来。
I'm gonna save that.
我要回到之前的那段，因为那种部分我本来就懂，而且感觉很好。
I'm gonna go back to the other part because that kind of I already know how to do that, and that feels good.
这是人之常情，我们都想做那种让我们感觉良好、更容易完成的事情。
It's human nature, you know, that we want to do something like that and that we want to be doing things that make us feel good and are and are easier for us.
但要想真正掌握那段更难的乐句，我们就必须面对它，必须坚持在那个区域练习。
But in order for us to actually ever master that more difficult piece, we've gotta get to that, and we've gotta stay in that area.
对吧？
Right?
如果我们每次一遇到困难部分就停下来，回到简单部分，只因为那里听起来好听，那也没办法。
If we keep stopping every time we get to the difficult part and going back to the easy part because it sounds good, okay.
这没问题，但你永远不会有进步。
That's fine, but you're never going to make any progress.
所以我认为关键在于帮助我们意识到，当我们遇到那个部分时，无论它是什么，你知道，每当我们学习时，遇到困难、感觉不如其他部分顺畅愉快的部分，这恰恰是我们需要抵抗逃离冲动的地方，因为它感觉不好，但我们必须坚持下去，因为唯一能让我们在这种情况下进步的方法就是坚持，不断练习，因为如果你持续练习并尝试困难的部分，你终将掌握它。
And so I think the key thing is to help us realize that when we get to that piece, whatever it is, you know, whenever we're learning, when we get to something that is difficult, that doesn't feel as good and as fluid and as nice as the other part, That is the very very thing that we need to kind of resist all of our urges to run away from because it doesn't feel so good, but we need to stay in it because the only way we're ever going to improve in that situation is to stay in it, is to keep practicing because, you know, if you do keep practicing and trying the difficult part, you will get to it.
你终将掌握它。
You will master it.
这只需要付出一点努力。
It's just gonna take a little bit of effort.
我认为我们在思考学习时，常常只看到终点，也就是最终成果。
And I think the key thing we think about learning is that we very often only see the endpoint, you know, the end product.
我们看到的是那个能娴熟演奏这首钢琴曲的人。
We see the person who is really skilled at playing this particular piano piece.
所以我们看到篮球运动员在球场上优雅地穿梭、腾空跳跃，做着各种动作，看起来轻而易举。
So we see the basketball player who's really, you know, grace and dancing around the court and jumping through the air and doing whatever, it looks easy.
你知道，当你看到人们做这些事时，你会想，是的。
You know, you see people doing things and you think, yeah.
我可以说，这就是我打篮球的问题。
I could do to say that is my problem with basketball.
他们看起来打得特别轻松，我也很佩服，因为他们个子太高了，让整个球场看起来都变小了。
It looks so easy for them, and I do appreciate because they're so tall, and they make the court look so small.
我看不出他们投篮有多难，真的。
I do not see how hard it is to Yeah.
把篮球狠狠地扣进篮筐。
Dunk those basketballs into the hoops.
是的。
Yeah.
看起来很简单。
It looks easy.
所以当我们看到这些时，由于我们的大脑无法完全想象出那些看不见的部分——比如无数小时的练习和背后付出的一切——我们就容易被误导，以为看起来很容易的事情实际上非常困难。
So I think when we see that and because our brain can't necessarily fill in all of the things that we can't see, all of the hours and hours and hours of practice and what has gone into that final product, that's where we can be tricked into thinking that something that is actually really, really difficult is something that looks really easy is actually really, really difficult.
当我思考如何帮助人们理解这一点时，如果我们能设定合理的期望。
And when I think about sort of helping people to understand that, if we can set a reasonable expectation.
所以如果你知道学习弹吉他其实很难，我会亲自告诉你这是真的，这样你就能以不同的心态来面对这个任务。
So if you know that learning how to play the guitar is really difficult, which I will personally tell you is true, that you can approach that task with a different mindset.
就像说，我知道这很难。
It's like, I know this is difficult.
我知道一开始听起来会很难听，但如果我真的有动力坚持下去、不断练习，努力提升，那么希望在某个时候，我能够弹得稍微像样一点。
I know it's gonna sound terrible at the beginning, but if I'm really motivated to stay in it and to practice and and to, you know, work on it, then hopefully at some point, I will be able to sound somewhat decent.
比如，我至少能勉强弹出一首曲子，虽然在我身上还没发生过，但‘还没’才是关键。
Like, I'll be able to actually eke out a tune, which in my case has not happened yet, but, you know, yet is the the key.
我最近看到一个说法，说可以在一个周末内学会弹吉他。
I saw something recently that was learn how to play the guitar in one weekend.
不需要任何音乐天赋。
No musical talent required.
如果你让人抱有这样的期望，认为这是可能的，那么从逻辑上思考，这种想法的结果会是什么？如果我买了这本书，心想，好吧。
If you set people up with an expectation that that is possible, if we think logically what the outcome is of that so if I buy that book and think, okay.
太好了。
Great.
不需要音乐天赋。
No musical talent.
搞定。
Check.
我有个周末。
I've got a weekend.
搞定。
Check.
好吧。
Okay.
现在我就能弹吉他了。
Now I'll be able to play the guitar.
现在我手里有了这本书里的这两样东西。
Now I have these two things in this book.
如果我后来做不到，而我估计我也做不到，那时我会有多大的动力去想：好吧。
If I then can't do that, which I would imagine I would not be able to, how motivated am I then to think, okay.
我会继续坚持下去，因为我刚刚在做一件别人告诉我特别特别简单的事情时失败了。
I'm gonna keep going on this because I've just failed at this thing that this person told me was really, really easy.
所以我认为，当我们说‘嘿，这很简单’的时候，其实是在误导别人。
So I think we do people a disservice when we say, hey.
这其实很容易。
This is really easy.
我认为关键是要帮助人们理解：学习需要时间，学习是困难的，但这并不意味着它不值得，也不意味着不值得我们投入时间和精力；关键在于我们要设定合理的预期——我们不能指望参加一个周末的篮球训练营后就能扣篮。
And I think a critical thing is to help people to understand that learning takes time, learning is hard, and that doesn't mean that it's not worthwhile or not, you know, worth worth us doing or worth us investing in and putting in our time, but it's about setting an expectation that we shouldn't expect to be dunking basketballs after a one weekend basketball camp.
我认为反过来，当我们思考专家时，也可以用同样的逻辑：如果我们想象一个人真的能在一个周末内学会弹吉他，那那些真正花了多年时间练习和学习弹吉他的人们又意味着什么？
I think on the flip side of it, when we think about experts, we can use the same idea that for experts, if we imagine that, yeah, you could learn how to play the guitar in one weekend, then what does that tell me about the people who've really truly been practicing and and learning how to play the guitar for years and years and years?
我这是在贬低他们的努力、时间和付出的所有练习。
I'm devaluing their efforts and their time and their labors in putting in, you know, all of the practice.
我说，是的。
And I'm saying, yeah.
没什么大不了的。
No big deal.
你可以在一个周末内完成。
You could do it in a weekend.
不，不行。
Well, no.
你做不到。
You can't.
我认为，在对待专家和新手时，两者都关键在于揭开表象，让人们明白要真正学好一件事是很难的。
And I think that in both cases, when we think about experts and novices, it's really about peeling back the the curtain and showing people it's hard to learn how to do something really well.
这需要大量时间。
It takes a lot of time.
这需要反馈。
It takes feedback.
这需要练习，所有这些因素都不可或缺。
It takes practice, all of the things.
是的，这样做是值得的，但你不可能学会这样的技能。
And, yes, it's worthwhile doing, but you're not going to learn something like that.
当你看到有人做某件事看起来非常轻松时，别被误导，以为他们也是在周末内学会的。
And when you see somebody doing something that looks really easy, don't be fooled into thinking that they learned that thing in a weekend either.
所以我经常看视频，你知道的，在Instagram上，它们会推送你感兴趣的内容。
And so I look at videos all the time, you know, on Instagram, and they feed you the things that you look at.
所以我经常看别人画水彩画，因为我喜欢坐在桌前画些小水彩画。
And so I look at people painting watercolors all the time because I love to sit down at my table and paint little watercolors.
我没有天赋，但我就是喜欢做这件事。
I have no talents, but I just like to do it.
但我会看到有人，哦，是的。
But I'll see somebody like, oh, yeah.
他们在画一棵漂亮的圣诞树。
They're painting a cool Christmas tree.
我就想，是的。
I'm like, yeah.
我也可以做到。
I could do that.
然后我会拿出我的颜料，把视频放在旁边，仔细看着他们是怎么画的。
And then I get my paints out, and I have the video right next to me, and I'm trying to watch them do it.
这真的、真的、真的很难。
And it's really, really, really difficult.
你知道，如果我持续练习，我确实会进步，但我的第一次尝试显然不可能看起来像他们的那样。
You know, yes, I can get better if I keep practicing, but my first attempt obviously never looks like theirs.
我认为，如果我们能帮助人们理解这一点就好了：事情看起来简单，但并不总是像表面看起来那么容易。
And I think the more that we can help people to understand that, that, yes, things look easy, but they're not always as easy as they seem.
如果我们能稍微揭开幕布，让人们看到：是的，我可能在这方面很擅长，但这花了我很长的时间才达到这个水平。
And if we can peek behind the curtain a little bit and help people to see, like, yeah, I might be really good at this, but it's taken me a long time to get there.
所以当我听你描述这些时，我开始思考职场中的挑战，是否都可以归结为我们设定了错误的期望。
So I started to think about the workplace challenges as you were describing this and if it can all fit under the bucket of we've been setting the wrong expectations and that's why.
因为理论上，很多人似乎在年轻时就明白了这一点。
Because in theory, it seems like a lot of people learn this, like, when they're young.
是的，学习是很难的。
Like, yeah, learning is hard.
这需要一段时间。
This takes a while.
但当你在职场中试图获得利益相关者的支持，并为它争取空间时，你可能会低估所需的时间，以便更好地推广培训，或者可能是视频形式看起来很吸引人，又或者是营销手段为了确保人们参加培训或大规模完成任务。
But then maybe when you're in the workplace setting and you're trying to get buy in from your stakeholders and you're trying to make space for it, maybe you downplay how long it's gonna take to help advocate for the training, or maybe it's the format, videos look nice, or maybe it's marketing to make sure people come to the training or do work on the scale.
别担心，你会提升的。
Like, don't worry, you're gonna level up.
所以我一直在想，问题出在哪里？摩擦点在哪里？为什么突然之间你就与‘这很难’的现实脱节了。
So part of me was wondering where the breakdown happens or where the friction happens, where all of a sudden you become misaligned with the reality that it is hard.
我脑子里也开始冒出无数个离题的想法，但其中一个就是：学习可以很有趣。
I also started to go off in million tangents in my brain, but one is learning can be fun.
学习也可以很有趣。
Learning can be funny.
其中可以有幽默感。
Like, there can be humor.
容易和有趣是两回事。
Easy and fun are not the same thing.
它仍然可以既困难又有趣，或者既简单又有趣，但人们往往会把简单和有趣混为一谈，尽管它们并不相同，但事情依然可能很困难。
It can still be hard and fun or easy and fun, but people complete easy and fun together when those are different, but it can also still be hard.
你可以传达这样的信息，但不要暗示它很简单。
And you can create that messaging, but not loop in that it's easy.
因为如果它很简单，那可能是学习设计或培训设计存在缺陷，或者你在传达真实期望时的方式有问题。
Because if it's easy, there might be a flaw in the learning design, the training design, or maybe it's a flaw in the way that you're communicating what the real expectations are.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，你刚才说的这些事情背后牵涉到很多内容。
I mean, there's a lot wrapped up into all those things that you just said.
但你可以想象，如果有人这么说，嘿。
But you can imagine if somebody says, hey.
比如说，你请来一位名人作者，他写了一本关于如何给予有效反馈的书，然后他来举办一场午餐研讨会或讲座。
You know, let's say you've got a celebrity author or something who's written a book on, you know, how to give good feedback or something like that, and they're gonna come in and do a lunchtime workshop or a talk of some kind.
我的意思是，这很棒，显然能激励人们，给人启发，或者让人对如何调整自己的反馈策略有新的视角，诸如此类的各种好处。
Mean, I that's great and can be obviously, it could be motivating to people or could give people ideas about something or could give people some different perspective on how they might be shaping their feedback strategy, all sorts of things like that.
但在我看来，认为参加一到两个小时的研讨会或工作坊就能对一个人实施新的反馈策略的能力产生真正深远的影响，这是不现实的。
But the idea that an exposure to an hour or two hour long, you know, seminar or workshop would have any real deep meaningful impact on someone's ability to implement a different feedback strategy is, in my opinion, just not realistic.
因此，我认为应该退一步思考：这并不意味着做这样的事情没有价值，但我们需要设定合理的期望——是的，这会很好，而且这可能是实现这一目标的漫长旅程或漫长道路上的第一步，但它可能成为推动这一进程的必要催化剂。
And so I think it's about stepping back and saying, that doesn't mean it's not worthwhile to do something like that, but setting up an expectation that is, yes, that would be great, and that might be the first step in a longer journey or a longer road to actually doing something like this, but it might be a necessary catalyst for setting off that ball.
另外，我认为你提到的‘容易且有趣’这些观点中，有趣并不是学习体验有效的必要元素。
The other thing I think you, you know, you mentioned about easy and fun and all of that, that fun, I think, is not a necessary element to a learning experience being effective.
但我觉得这属于内在动机的一部分？
What I would It's part of intrinsic motivation, though?
当然。
Certainly.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这显然是一个非常主观的事情。
I mean, obviously, it's a very subjective subjective thing.
对吧？
Right?
人们觉得有趣的事情以及他们投入的事情。
What people find fun and what people are engaged in.
从某种意义上说，
In a
如果我非常投入于成为一名更好的钢琴演奏者，即使我觉得被迫练习乐曲中这部分困难内容并不那么有趣。
way, it can feed on itself that, you know, if I am really invested in becoming a better piano player, even though I might not think it's that fun to be forced to do this difficult part of my piece.
但如果我始终关注最终目标，比如我真的很想在某个音乐会上表演，那么这就会成为我的动力，我会觉得更有趣，也更愿意参与其中。
If I keep my eye on the outcome, which is I really wanna go and perform in some concert somewhere or something, then it will be motivating to me, and I will find it more fun or I'll be more willing to engage in that.
但我觉得当我们思考动机时——这完全是另一个话题——我们真正要思考的是，如何触动那些能引起他们共鸣的东西？
But I think when we think about motivation, I mean, which is a whole other area, what we're really trying to do is think, you know, how can I tap into something that will resonate with them?
要么他们能从中找到价值，要么觉得它与自己的生活相关，要么感受到某种程度的自我效能，觉得自己有能力、有资格去参与其中。
Either they'll find value in it or they'll find that it's relevant to their life or they'll feel some level of self efficacy that they feel that they can do it or they do have the capacity or the ability to even enter into something.
因此，所有这些都可能成为人们真正进入学习体验的障碍。
So all of these things can be hurdles to people actually even getting into a learning experience.
我认为，当我们思考学习时，即使拥有最棒的课程、研讨会或学习体验，但如果一个人没有动力去参与、投入或出席，那也毫无意义。
And I think that when we think about learning, we could have the most amazing course or workshop or learning experience, but if somebody's not motivated to engage in it or to be in it or to go to it, then it doesn't matter.
它有多好都没关系。
It doesn't matter how great it is.
所以我们总是在思考所有这些不同的因素，它们都需要结合起来才能让某件事有效。
So we're always thinking about all of these different pieces that all need to come together to make something effective.
我认为这正是它的有趣之处，如果你是现场的引导者，或者你是设计学习内容的人，这也会很有挑战性。
I think that's what's so fun about it and can be challenging if you're the facilitator in the room or if you're the instructional designer who's building something.
你不知道谁会出现在那个房间里，也许他们在平时的任何一天都能做到，但偏偏那天他们睡不好，因为宝宝正在长牙，或者其他事情打乱了一切，这就改变了他们吸收信息的方式。
You don't know who will be in that room if maybe they were able to do this on any regular day, but the day that they happen to be doing it, they got a bad night's sleep because their baby was teething or something that throws everything off, and then that changes how they'll take in that information.
有太多变量了。
There's just a lot of variables.
所以你不可能为所有情况都做好计划，但我认为思考所有这些因素是有帮助的。
So you can't plan for all of it, but I think it's helpful to think about all of those things.
然后，你如何为人们创造多种选择，因为你清楚他们不可能拥有那完美的一天——那种日子可能永远不会出现。
And then how are you creating options for folks knowing that they're not gonna have the one perfect day that probably won't ever happen.
我想回到你之前说的，关于在一小时内你到底能完成多少事情。
I wanna go back to something you said about how much you can really accomplish in an hour.
乔什·卡瓦利尔来参加了ATD会议，为我们做了一场关于人工智能的分享，我认为如果我们有现实的期望，他的分享更多的是在鼓励那些还没开始尝试的人去试着起步，是的。
Josh Cavalier came to ATD and did a session for us about AI, and I think if we had realistic expectations, it was very much sort of encouraging you just if you haven't started experimenting to try to start experimenting and Yeah.
为自己设立一个小目标，要现实一点，并着眼于2026年。
Create a little personal, like, goal for yourself and be realistic and look for 2026.
你每周打算做些什么？
What is it gonna be weekly?
你每月打算做些什么？
What is it gonna be monthly?
你的年度目标可以是什么？
What could your yearly goal be?
实际上，开始设定一些目标吧。
And actually to start setting some goals.
这对我来说是主要的收获。
That was sort of main takeaway for me.
我们聊了很多内容。
We covered a lot.
我们做了很多，但这让我思考，在这段时间内什么是现实可行的。
We did a lot, but it made me think about, you know, what's realistic in that amount of time.
是心态的转变吗？
Is it mindset shift?
是一两件事吗？
Is it, like, one or two things?
但有人可能会说，你其实可以融入很多内容。
But someone might argue, oh, you can fit in so much.
你可以给他们一个框架，比如这三个提示词，让他们在会话中开始使用并练习。
You can hand them a framework, like, these three prompts that they can start using, and they practice in the session, and they do them.
然后他们就已经开始实践了，之后还可以在会话结束后继续深化练习。
And then they've already started practicing the thing, and then they can keep building on the practice after the session.
我知道当我负责会议策划和项目设计时，我会问演讲者：嘿。
And I know when I'm working on conference curation and program design and I'm asking speakers, hey.
你能做一个关于这个和那个的演讲吗？
Will you do a session about this and that?
我正在问他们这个问题。
I'm asking them that.
我在想，他们可以开始实践哪些与这些概念或想法相关的内容？
I'm like, what's something that they can start practicing with the concepts or ideas?
是一个反思性问题吗？
Is it a reflection question?
是一个让他们讨论的对话提示吗？
Is it discussion prompt that they get to chat about?
有没有某种活动？
Is there some type of activity?
你对此怎么说？
What do you say to that?
谈谈我们能在一小时内塞进多少内容，以及可以包含哪些东西
Talk about how much we can fit into an hour and what things we can
吗？
do?
嗯，
Well,
对我来说，关键是现实一点。
to me, it's all about being realistic.
你提到过，当我们设计会议形式或决定工作坊要讲什么内容时，我们并不知道观众会是谁。
And you mentioned this that we don't know who is going to be in our audience when we are coming up with a conference format or, you know, figuring out what we're gonna talk about in our workshop.
但希望我们多少能知道，这些参与者并不是完全的门外汉。
Hopefully, we have some idea of, you know, that these folks aren't, you know, complete novices.
如果他们来参加了ATD，那他们至少有一些了解。
If they've come to ATD, they have some idea.
他们具备一定的背景知识，但我们确实不清楚具体程度。
They have some level of background knowledge, but we really don't know specifically.
所以我认为，那些擅长这件事的人具备一种能力：他们能从现场氛围中感受到，参与者在他们所讨论的主题上处于什么阶段，然后灵活调整要讲的内容、使用的例子等等。
And so I think one of the talents that people who can do this well have is that they have an ability to start to get a sense from the room of, you know, where people are on their journey, whatever the journey is that they're talking about in that session, and then being a little flexible in terms of what they're gonna talk about, what type of examples they're gonna use, and all of those things.
但我认为，人们常常犯一个错误，就是以为：好吧。
But I think that people make a mistake when they think, okay.
一小时的课程后，你就能掌握这一点。
After an hour long session, you'll have mastered this.
你就能做到这一点。
You'll be able to do this.
你就能回去并在工作中实施这一点。
You'll be able to go back and implement this in the workplace.
再次回到我们之前讨论的期望问题，这真的是一个现实的期望吗？
Again, going back to what we talked about with expectations, is that really a realistic expectation?
当然。
Absolutely.
我们可以让人做一些事情。
There are things that we can have people do.
我们可以让人去尝试一些东西。
We can have people experiment with things.
比如说，如果你在做一个人工智能工作坊，你可以让人尝试某些提示。
You know, like, if if you were doing an AI workshop, you could have people try out certain prompts.
但要真正巩固他们所学的内容，他们需要回去实践、思考这些知识，也许还要根据具体情况向他人寻求一些反馈。
But to really solidify what they're learning, they're gonna need to be going back, applying that, thinking about that, maybe getting some feedback from somebody about something depending on what it is.
但再次强调，我认为关键在于设定一个现实的期望，特别是对于那些在某个主题上几乎没有先前知识的人。
But we again, I think it's about setting an expectation that what is realistic for somebody, particularly if they really have not much prior knowledge on a particular topic.
一个人在参加完一小时的课程后，能带走什么才是现实的期望？尤其是考虑到他们之后可能还要参加另一个一小时的课程？
What is realistic expectation for someone to walk away from an hour session with, particularly given the fact that they might then go to another hour long session on something else?
我们知道大脑的工作机制是：我刚刚塞进工作记忆的那些内容，一旦去参加另一个课程，就会被完全挤出去，因为现在我得思考别的东西了。
Then what we know about the brain is all that stuff that I had just put into my working memory, now I go to another session, and now that just, like, shoves all that out because now I've got something else to think about.
我根本没有时间消化刚刚学到的东西，而这一点恰恰是必不可少的。
And I didn't really have time to digest what I just learned, and that's a a necessary piece too.
所以对我来说，这仅仅是关于保持现实的态度。
So to me, it's just about being realistic.
我不认为这是消极的。
I don't see it as a in a negative way.
我把它看作是积极的。
I see it in a positive way.
也就是说，我们能有什么样的合理期望呢？
It's like, you know, what is a realistic expectation that we can have?
我们能否给人们一些时间和机会去练习，并提供一些想法、策略、技巧或工具，让他们回去尝试实施这些内容？毕竟，当没有人给予反馈时，这本身也带有一定的风险。
Can we give folks some time and opportunity to practice something and give them some ideas or some strategies, tips, tools that they can go back and see if they can implement some of these things considering that there's also a little bit of a risk there when now I don't have any feedback coming in from anybody.
你知道的。
You know?
我们知道，学习的一个必要部分是获得比我们更懂行的人的反馈，因为我们可能会完全走错方向。
We know that a necessary part of learning is to get some feedback from people who know more than we do because we could be going off on a completely wrong road.
如果没有人帮助我纠正方向，这也可能很危险。
And if I don't have somebody helping me course correct, that can be risky too.
所以，你知道，确实如此。
So, you know, there's Yeah.
这也是其中的一部分。
There's that piece of it.
我知道我们以前就深入探讨过这个问题。
I know we've gone down that hole rather before.
我打算回到之前提到的一个例子，比如说。
I'm gonna jump back over to the idea of as I mentioned, an example of, hey.
让我们直接抛出一个反思性问题。
Like, let's just throw in a reflection question.
但时间是一种资源，人们总是觉得不够用。
But time is a resource that folks just can't get enough of.
他们希望以某种方式加快进程，找到捷径、公式、食谱或框架。
They want to expedite it some way, get a shortcut, and formulas, recipes, frameworks.
这是一种获得捷径、直击核心细节的方法，他们可以立即应用。
That is a way to get the shortcut and get down to the real nitty gritty, and they can take that.
这就是所谓的‘需要知道’。
And that's the need to know.
就像你之前提到的，跳过所有‘最好知道’的内容，直接进入‘必须知道’的部分。
Like, you were mentioning before, let's skip all the nice to know stuff, get to the need to know.
我理解人们为什么想要这样。
I understand why people want that.
我们所有人都时间紧迫。
We're all short on time.
我们要做的事情太多了。
We've got a lot to do.
理想情况下，你能直接切入最重要的内容，但如果你试图依赖这种策略来设计培训或学习体验，或者在推荐这些策略时，而你所在的组织中负责设计培训或培训团队的人是管理者或其他人，且不再由具备更明确学习科学背景的L&D专业人士来引导，这就可能存在风险。
Ideally, you're getting to the meat of what's most important, but there's maybe a risk of using that strategy if you're trying to rely on that for how you're designing training or how you're designing learning experiences or recommending maybe some of these strategies when you're taking away some of the power and you're recommending it to people in your organization, creating trainings or training their teams and they are managers or whoever it is, and it's not even being facilitated by an l and d professional anymore who might have more of this explicit science of learning background.
是的。
Yeah.
这又是一个重大问题。
Again, a huge question.
我认为，归根结底，当我们设计学习体验时，会面临大量无法控制的未知因素和变量。
I think, ultimately, it comes down to this issue that when we're designing a learning experience, there are a whole bunch of unknowns and variables that we cannot control.
正如我之前提到的，你可能会设计一个工作坊、在线课程或其他内容，但在交付学习体验或培训时，还需要考虑所有可能产生影响的要素。
And as I mentioned earlier, you know, you could create a workshop or an online course or something, and you need to also be considering when you're delivering a learning experience or delivering a training, all of the different elements that can have an impact on that.
因此，除了你所处理的内容之外，还有各种各样的事情在发生。
So above and beyond the content that you're dealing with, you know, there are all sorts of things happening.
你可能会看到两个人呆呆地盯着你，眼神空洞。
You could have two people staring at you completely blindly or just with this, like, glazed look in their eyes.
其中一个人可能在想：我以前参加过这个人的培训，她真的很不喜欢我。
And one of them might be thinking, oh, I've had a training with this person before and she really did not like me.
我真的觉得她不喜欢我。
I really felt that she did not like me.
她整个时间都在用冷眼瞪我。
She was giving me, you know, daggers the whole time.
这就是那个人的想法。
That's what that one person's thinking.
另一个人则在想：哦，她只是在讲数学。
This other person is thinking, oh, you know, she's just talking about math.
我一向数学很差，现在我觉得她待会儿可能会让我们做数学题，而我觉得我根本做不来。
I I've always been really bad at math, and and now I think that she's gonna be asking us to do some math in this thing, and I don't think I can do it.
所以，这两个人有着完全不同的内心体验，但外表上看却一模一样。
So you've got two people who are having a completely different experience, but outwardly, they look exactly the same.
因此，作为培训师、引导者或教育者，你必须考虑到所有这些因素。
And so as a trainer or a facilitator or an educator, you have to be thinking about all of those things.
你该如何找出方法，了解可能浮现的一些动机问题呢？
How can you figure out a way to understand, you know, what are some of the motivational issues that might be showing up?
有哪些因素可能会给某些学习者带来额外的认知负担？
What are some of the things that might be posing extraneous cognitive load on some of the learners?
所有这些因素都会影响你的教学效果。
All of those elements are all things that are gonna impact how effective you are.
如果我们只是想着，哦，教某人做某事的好策略是什么？
And so if we think about, like, oh, what's a good strategy to teach somebody x y z thing?
然后有人就说，是的。
And someone's like, oh, yeah.
朱莉娅说你应该总是这么做、这么做、这么做，但你却没有考虑到影响该策略有效性的各种情境因素。
Julia said that you should always do this, this, and this, then you're not taking into consideration all of the different contextual factors that impact the effectiveness of that particular strategy.
所以我认为，归根结底，我们始终需要思考：我们所处的环境是什么？人们带着哪些先前的知识进入这个情境？
And so I think that, you know, at the end of the day, we always need to be thinking about what is the context that we're in, what's the prior knowledge that people are bringing into this situation?
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我该如何快速判断这里的人是否存在动机上的障碍？
How can I somewhat swiftly figure out if there are any motivational impediments to folks being here?
我该如何应对这些问题？
What can I do to address them?
我该如何布置环境和实际的物理空间，以便让大家更专注于我所讲的内容？
How can I structure the environment and the actual physical space to be conducive to focusing on what I'm talking about?
我的意思是，所有这些方面。
I mean, all of those pieces.
所以当我们在这里交谈时，我不断听到门铃在响。
So as we're talking here, I keep hearing this doorbell is ringing.
这让我非常分心。
It's really distracting to me.
而且在任何情况下，只要你听到类似的声音，大脑的一部分就会被吸引过去，心想：谁在按门铃？
And even in any situation, you know, as soon as you hear something like that, like, a little piece of your brain is going over here, and it's like, oh, who's ringing on the doorbell?
那个人是不是要来敲门了？
Is that person about to come and knock on the door?
这肯定会让人烦心。
And that's gonna be annoying.
因此，我们的工作记忆容量有限，只能处理这么多事情。
And so we've only got so much capacity in our working memory to be dealing with something.
在任何情况下，只要有一部分注意力被分散，效果就会降低。
And in any situation, as soon as a little piece of it is gone, then it's less effective.
所以我认为，当我们谈论时，我倾向于这样想：有时我们会过度推崇人们所讨论的不同策略和技巧。
And so I think the risk when we I like to think about it like this, but sometimes we fetishize in a way different strategies and different techniques that people talk about.
因此，示范例题就是这方面的一个很好的例子。
And so I think worked examples is a really good exemplar of this.
示范例题是指你在教授某人一些相当复杂的内容时。
And so a worked example is something where you're teaching somebody something quite complex.
你不是一次性把全部内容教给他们，而是将其分解为更小的步骤，帮助他们直观地理解，好吧。
And rather than just teaching them the whole thing all at once, you break it down into smaller steps and help them to see visually, okay.
这就是解决这个问题的方法。
This is how you would solve this problem.
假设这是一个数学题，这里有一个完整解答过程，让你能清楚地看到某人是如何思考、一步步推导出答案的。
Let's say it's a math problem, and here's a fully worked out version of it so you can actually see what was the thinking, what was the progression that somebody went through to get to the answer.
这对新手来说非常有帮助，让他们能看清其中的各个组成部分。
And that can be really helpful for a novice to see what the different elements of that are.
当你教别人复杂的内容，尤其是他们刚接触时，这真的是一个极好的工具。
And it's a really, really, really good tool when you're teaching somebody something complex and something when they're brand new.
但如果我对人们说，是的，这是一个非常好的策略。
But if I said to people, yeah, that's a really good strategy.
但如果你一直沿用这个方法，即使学习者已经具备了专业能力，那么随着我越来越熟练，这个策略反而会变得有害，因为我已经自动化了其中一些步骤，看到这些步骤反而让我分心。
And then if you kept using that even as people developed expertise, now as I develop more and more expertise, that's now a really detrimental strategy because it's just annoying because I've automatized some of those steps, and so it starts to become distracting to me to see that.
作为学习体验设计师，一个关键的考虑是：没有任何一种策略能适用于学习旅程中每个学习者的所有阶段。
As a learning experience designer, one of the key considerations is no one strategy is going to work for every learner at every point in their learning journey.
随着我们在学习旅程中不断前进，我们会发生变化。
And as we progress along that learning journey, we change.
在学习过程中，我们的大脑也在发生变化。
As we're learning, our brain is changing.
因此，人们用来教你某些东西的策略、工具和方法，也需要随着学习过程的推进而改变。
And so the strategies and the tools and the techniques that someone is using to teach you something, they have to change as well as we're going along there.
所以，固守某一种策略或方法是很危险的，比如认为：好吧。
And so it's why it can be really risky to lock into one strategy or one technique and say, okay.
这就是全部了。
This is it.
这是适用于所有人、任何时候的唯一方法，然后一味地坚持，因为我们经常说，你知道，这取决于具体情况。
This is what works all the time for everyone and just double down on that because as we like to say all the time, know, it just depends.
你知道，它可能有效，也可能无效，你需要意识到这一点，并准备好思考：好吧。
You know, it might work, it might not, and you need to be aware of that and be ready to think, okay.
如果它不起作用，可能的原因是什么？我还能做些什么？
If it's not working, what might be a reason why and what else could I do?
还有哪些其他方法，能继续符合我所使用的循证实践？
You know, what's something else I could do that would still be aligned to my evidence based practices that I'm using?
但如果这种方法不起作用，也许背后是有原因的。
But if this thing's not working, maybe there's a reason why.
我该如何发掘这一点呢？
And how can I unearth that?
我的意思是，这在某种程度上就像侦探工作一样。
I mean, it's a lot of detective work in a way.
是的。
Yeah.
你正在转向另一个类别。
You're veering into another bucket.
我想确认一下我们是否已经涵盖了这一点。
I wanted to make sure we covered that.
情境很重要。
Context matters.
是的。
And Yes.
你提到了‘这要看情况’这个说法，我们以前的团队曾开玩笑说，这是我们的最高频用语，是的。
You mentioned the phrase it depends, which we joked at my old organization was our most commonly used phrase Yes.
在我们的培训中。
During our trainings.
理想情况下，人们不应该更频繁地使用它，因为这确实取决于各种因素。
And, ideally, folks shouldn't use it more often because it really does depend on all sorts of factors.
我想了想，对你来说一个有趣的问题可能是：有什么例子能说明，由于没有考虑背景而导致策略失败？
I thought, well, a fun question for you might be, what could be an example of a strategy that's failed because the context wasn't considered?
我们以视频为例。
Well, let's take video.
所以人们通常会想，好吧。
So people will often think, okay.
视频成了培训中新的热门工具和新技术。
Video became the new shiny tool and the new shiny technique to use in training.
大家都说，是的。
And everybody's like, yeah.
对。
Yeah.
每个人都喜欢抖音，让我们把视频融入培训中。
Everyone loves TikTok and let's build videos into our training.
我认为，每当我们考虑在学习环境中使用某种工具或方法时，都必须始终思考：它是否符合我要教授的内容，是否符合我要教授的对象？
And I think that anytime we are thinking about a tool or a technique that we're going to use within a learning context, we have to be always thinking about, does it fit with what I'm trying to teach, and does it fit with the person I'm trying to teach it to?
所以，如果我正在教一个完全新手的人如何，比如说，更换汽车轮胎之类的事情，那么视频会非常有效，因为他们脑海中对各种工具或部件几乎一无所知。
So if I am teaching a brand new novice person how to, let's say, change the tire on a car or something like that, then a video is gonna be excellent because they don't have anything in their head really around, you know, the different tools or the different pieces.
因此，拥有一个视觉演示，并能反复回放，看看别人是如何拆卸零件的，这很有帮助。
And so having a visual of that and having something that you could replay over and over and over and see how somebody how did they take the thing off?
我得坦白，我根本不会换轮胎，连正确的术语都用不出来。
And I'll betray that I don't know how to do it, so I can't even use the right terminology.
但所有你需要做的步骤，对新手来说，视频都会非常出色。
But all of the things that you need to do, a video for a novice would be excellent.
对吧？
Right?
关键是你可以一遍又一遍地观看。
And the key is that you can watch it over and over and over and over again.
这不仅仅是让老师演示一次，因为那样你会想，等一下。
It's not just having an instructor show you one time because then you're like, hold on a second.
你刚才说什么？
What did you say?
你说先做这个，再做那个。
You said do this first, do this second.
所以，这不如可以反复观看的材料来得有效。
So that's not as effective as having something that you can watch over and over.
因此，对于完全没有经验和知识的人来说，这真是一个绝佳的策略。
So that's really a great strategy for somebody who has no prior knowledge, no experience.
但再来看看那些在汽车机械方面拥有丰富经验和知识的人。
But then let's take somebody who has a tremendous amount of experience and knowledge about car mechanics or whatever it might be.
现在，假设这个人知道宝马刚刚推出了一种新型轮胎螺母。
Now take that person and say, BMW has just come out with a new, you know, type of nut on their tire.
所以现在当你更换宝马的轮胎时，不再使用六号扳手，而必须使用七号扳手。
And so now when you change a tire in a BMW, instead of using this number six wrench, now you have to use the number seven wrench.
那你就可以直接告诉别人。
Then you could just tell somebody that.
他们不需要看关于这个的视频。
They don't need to watch a video about that.
你直接告诉他们就行了。
You could just tell them.
你能告诉他们的原因是因为他们脑子里已经具备了所有这些先前的知识。
The reason you can tell them is because they have all of that prior knowledge in their head.
我想起你之前的问题，关于人们常犯的一个错误，我认为就是以为某一种方法或某种媒介可以
I think back to your question, you know, about a mistake people make, I think, is that one idea or that one medium will
让我想到合规性，就像这样，对。
be To make me think about compliance as I'm, like Right.
把它更广泛地联系到你目前可能并不从事汽车行业的听众身上。
Connecting it more broadly to what maybe you don't work in in a car industry right now as a listener.
是的。
Yeah.
但我觉得重点是，不要说，哦，是的。
But I think the idea being that not to say, like, oh, yeah.
让我们用视频吧。
Let's use video.
也许吧。
Maybe.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为我们总是需要对所投入的事情保持一点谨慎。
I think that's always just for us to have a little bit of caution about what we are jumping into.
而且，很多人会陷入闪亮物体综合症，觉得好吧。
And, you know, a lot of people will fall into that shiny object syndrome and think, okay.
是的。
Yeah.
大家都在谈论这个新东西。
Everybody's talking about this, this new thing.
也许。
Maybe.
但有时候，那些基础的、传统的策略实际上对于特定的主题、特定领域、以及具有特定背景知识和专业技能的人群来说，效果会好得多。
But sometimes the basic regular old school strategies are actually going to work so much better for particular topics, particular areas with people with a particular type of background knowledge and expertise.
所以，只是不要过于执着于某样东西，正如我所说，不要将某样东西神化到这种地步，好像非它不可。
So it's just not being too tied to something and really, as I say, you know, fetishizing something to such a degree that it's like, okay.
我总是听到这种说法。
I'm always hearing about this.
我们必须这么做，必须始终引入适当的困难。
This is what we have to do, and we have to always build in a desirable difficulty.
我们必须始终引入一些已解示例，或者 whatever 那些技术，它们在某些时候、某些场合下效果更强或更弱，这才是我们需要考虑的——我们不能只是用一种固定方式向人们狂轰滥炸信息，因为那未必是最有效的教学方法。
We have to always build in some worked examples or whatever the thing is that there are times and places where these techniques are going to be more or less impactful, and that's what we need to be considering that we're not just this fire hose of information packaged in a certain way because that's not going to necessarily be the most effective technique.
是的。
Yeah.
那真是一个很有趣的例子。
That that's a really fun example.
好的。
Okay.
我们已经稍微讨论过专家和初学者的区别，我想再深入一点这个话题。
We have talked a little bit about experts versus the beginners, and I just wanna keep pulling this thread a little bit.
我认为甚至很容易陷入过度简化的误区。
I think it could be easy even to oversimplify.
好吧，这就是你为专家设计的方式，尽管你之前说过不要这样做。
Well, this is how you design for experts now even though you said don't do this.
但要避免陷入这种陷阱真的很难，你会想：没错。
But it's hard not to fall into that trap where you're like, yes.
我想给初学者更多信息。
I wanna give beginners more information.
我想起我在ATD之前的经验，当时我们在教授新游戏或新练习时，通常会直接开始玩游戏，然后再提供关于角色的更多背景和信息。
And I'm going back to my old experience before ATD where one thing that we did when we were teaching a new game or a new exercise in these programs that we did was we would start sort of to, like, jump into the game right away and then give more context and more information about the roles.
因为如果你只是告诉他们：我们要这么做，然后这么做，再这么做，他们就会承受太多负担，你已经给他们灌输了过多的信息。
Because if you're just telling them, this is how we're gonna do it and then this and then this, it's like they're holding so much and you're already overloading them with too much information.
在那种情况下，没有视频可以反复观看。
And in that context, there wasn't a video to watch over and over again.
我们是面对面进行的，亲自参与这些项目。
We were doing something in person, you winning these programs in person.
但这让我思考，要把握信息过多或过少的平衡点，以及何时开始让人信息过载，是多么困难。
But it does make me think about how hard it is to know what's the right balance of too much information or not enough information or where you're starting to overwhelm.
就像你提到的那样，我立刻意识到：哦，对。
Like, you made that point where I'm like, oh, yeah.
那么你就没必要给我们太多信息。
Then you don't need to give us much information.
而专家们，取决于具体是什么内容，他们可能希望了解所有细节。
And maybe experts depending on what the thing is, they wanna know all these nitty gritty details.
因此他们能够跳过部分内容，直接分辨出哪些是新的信息。
So they are able to skip to the part and, like, differentiate what's, like, the new piece of information.
你如何避免过度简化？
How do you avoid oversimplifying?
这在一定程度上还要视情况而定。
It depends again a little bit.
所以，想想你的游戏例子。
So thinking about your game example.
假设我要教别人玩一款新的桌游。
So let's say I was going to teach somebody a new board game.
如果你从来没见过这个游戏，而我坐在那里，面前放着装在盒子里的游戏。
If you've never seen the board game before and I, you know, I'm sitting there and I've got it in a box in front of me.
所以我们有这款桌游。
So we have this board game.
它叫《Wingspan》，可能是我玩过最复杂的游戏之一。
It's called Wingspan, and it's probably one of the most complicated games I've ever played.
我把它放在橱柜里差不多三年了，因为觉得它太难了，不敢拿出来。
I had it sitting in my cupboard for about three years because I was really intimidated by it and didn't wanna get it out of the box.
有一天，我们全家决定，好吧。
And so one day, we as a family thought, okay.
今天就是这一天。
Today is the day.
我们要开始了。
We're gonna do it.
我们要玩《Wingspan》。
We're gonna play Wingspan.
这真的非常困难。
And it was really, really difficult.
我们花了好长时间才学会怎么玩。
It took us a while to learn how to do it.
有很多细节和很多规则。
There's a lot of nuances and a lot of rules.
不管怎样，如果我想教你玩这个游戏，光是坐在那儿，把游戏摆在面前，一股脑儿告诉你所有的规则，并没什么帮助。
And, anyway, if I was trying to teach you how to play that game, it doesn't really help me to just sit there with the game in front of me and tell you, you know, all of the rules of the game.
我讲到第五条规则了，可你还卡在第一条，心里想：什么？
I've got to rule number five, and you're still at rule number one thinking, what?
什么蛋？
What eggs?
我有多少个蛋？
How many eggs do I have?
如果你没有任何东西可以附着的话。
If you because you don't have anything to stick it to.
你没有任何背景知识来理解这些内容。
You've got no background knowledge to stick any of this to.
所以，同样地，你在工作中和别人一起玩游戏的情况也是这样。
And so, similarly, you know, in your situation, you were talking about playing a game with people in in a work context.
有时候可以先做个简单的热身，比如：嘿。
It can be useful to do a little bit of, like, hey.
我们先开始玩吧。
Let's just start playing.
但我要提醒一下，你得小心一点，因为如果你们要做的事情很复杂，而他们突然开始做却完全不明白，可能会变得非常令人沮丧。
But, again, I caution a little bit there that you don't want people to get depending on how complex whatever you're doing is, it can get super frustrating if all of a sudden they're doing something and they don't really understand anything.
他们根本不清楚自己在做什么、为什么做，或者类似的事情。
They don't really understand what they're doing, why they're doing it, or anything like that.
但如果你能让他们稍微体验一下，至少让他们明白这个游戏的目标是完成x。
But if you can give them a little taste of it and at least give them some idea of, okay, the goal of this game is going to be to do x.
这就是它的样子。
Here's what it looks like.
这是一些大致的参数。
Here's some of the general parameters.
现在我要退一步，告诉你一些我希望你具体去做的细节。
Now I'm gonna step back and tell you some of the more specific things that I want you to do.
至少他们现在对这个有了初步的心理模型。
Now at least they have the start of a mental model around that.
如果他们完全不了解，那就像是到了一个全新的城市，向别人问路。
If they have zero, it's like being in a brand new town and you're asking someone for directions.
如果你从没去过那里，而他们一开口就说：好的。
If you've never been there before and they start saying, okay.
在红绿灯处左转。
Go left at the traffic lights.
在环形路口右转，然后直走三个街区。
Go right at the roundabout, and then go three blocks down.
我还是说在红绿灯处左转。
I'm still at left at the traffic lights.
对吧？
Right?
我根本听不到你在说什么。
Like, I can't hear anything you're saying.
所以在这种情况下，更好的策略是我先从你这里得到一个方向，到达那个点后，再问别人下一个方向，就这样一步步来，因为我根本没有任何参照可以依附。
And so in that situation, it would be a much better strategy for me just to get one direction from you, get to that point, and ask somebody else and get another direction, and then you just keep doing it like that because I don't have anything to stick that to.
但我确实认为，这里又有一点风险，这属于那种视情况而定的问题——如果你直接把人扔进一个完全没有指导或背景信息的环境中，他们很容易感到沮丧和失去动力，因为他们根本不知道该做什么。
But I do think, though, that there's a little bit of a risk again, and this is one of those depends issues that if you throw folks into something, you throw them in at the deep end without any, you know, instruction or any context at all, you run the risk there of frustration and demotivation because they really don't know what to do.
我个人不认为，如果你是个完全的新手，人们常说的‘有益的挣扎’真的适用。
And I personally don't believe that if you're a complete novice you know, sometimes people will say productive struggle.
我认为，当你是个完全的新手时，我不认为这是个好办法。
I think that when you're a complete novice, I don't think that that's a thing.
你知道的？
You know?
我就是不认同这种观点。
I I just don't subscribe to that.
如果让完全新手的人在一项任务中过度挣扎，可能会导致非常负面的结果。
I think that it can lead to really negative outcomes if you're having people struggle too much in something when they really are brand, brand, brand new.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为你需要给他们一些帮助。
I think you need to give them a little help.
但我还认为，在工作场所的背景下，如果有一个完全新人，显然他们不可能在入职期间就掌握新岗位所需的所有技能，比如，大多数人入职培训期都比较短，那么我认为，让新人与能够帮助他们的专家建立联系是很重要的，让他们明白。
But I also think that in the workplace context, if you have a brand new person, obviously, they can't master all of the things they're going to have to do in a brand new role, you know, during an onboarding period, let's say, and let's say most people have a pretty short onboarding period, then I believe that connecting people to other experts who can help them to see, okay.
这是你工作中要学习的一个电脑程序，它有成千上万个功能点。
Here's a computer program that you're going to have to learn as part of your job, and there's a whole bazillion elements to it.
但你知道吗？
But you know what?
作为专家，我要告诉你关于这个程序最重要的一点是：这个。
I, as the expert, I'm gonna tell you the thing that is the most important for you to know about this program is this.
我会告诉你这一部分，等你开始使用时，我们可以再讨论，我会帮你弄清楚其余的部分。
I'm gonna tell you that part, and as you start working on it, we can talk again, and I can help you figure out the rest of it.
但如果没有这种联系和背景，我可能会想，好吧。
But without that connection and that context, then I might think, alright.
我得从零开始，然后只是原地打转，根本无法真正掌握这个程序的使用。
I guess I'm starting at square one, and then I'm just spinning my wheels and not really getting to the point where I can actually do something with this program.
你说到我心坎里了，因为我正打算给你编个场景，我想到的就是你所说的入职培训，因为很多组织的问题在于，信息一股脑儿地涌向你，速度太快了。
You're reading my mind because I told you I was gonna try to come up with a scenario for you, and I was thinking onboarding exactly like you said because the problem is with so many organizations, they just there's so much information coming at you so quickly.
有时候是一些你根本想不到的事情。
Sometimes it's things that you don't even think about.
比如，我平时用的是Mac，现在却要用PC。
Like, I'm normally a Mac user, and now I'm using a PC.
我平时用Google，而你们用Microsoft。
And I normally use Google, and you guys use Microsoft.
有很多你根本想不到的事情，这就是学习曲线。
There's just things that you're not even thinking about of, like, that's the learning curve.
与此同时，仅仅是熟悉工具和设备，而不是那些角色和需要见面的人。
Meanwhile, just, like, getting into the tools and appliances versus the things, the roles, the people to meet.
这里面有太多太多内容了。
There's so so so much there.
而且很多时候，这些都没有被正式化。
And a lot of times, it's not formalized.
经理和团队成员、跨职能团队被赋予了创建这种入职体验的权力，而这种方式非常非正式。
Managers and team members, cross functional teams are being empowered to create this onboarding experience, and it's very informal.
有时候，你可能根本没学到你需要知道的东西。
And sometimes it can be, like, you didn't really get the things that you needed to know.
所以这让我忍不住想，现在我想象他们每个人都是自己领域里的微型专家。
So it does make me wonder to go back to now I'm imagining them all as mini subject matter experts in their own way of their own thing.
你如何帮助那些为新员工提供类似入职体验的支持人员，使这种体验对新员工来说更有效？
How do you help support folks who have onboarding experiences like this for new employees where it's more effective for the individual coming in?
我知道你已经举过一个例子了，比如，你最需要知道的那一件事是什么？
I know you've given an example already of, oh, what's the one thing that you need to know that you need to take away?
我想起在一些会议上听到的例子，人们会给他们团队成员一份品牌化的幻灯片演示文稿。
I think about examples that I've heard in conferences where folks, they give their team members, like, a branded slide deck.
但我知道你告诉我们，即使你是某个领域的专家，也不一定能带来良好的学习体验。
But I know that you're teaching us that just because you're a subject matter expert doesn't necessarily guarantee a great learning experience.
嗯，在那种情况下，比如说，
Well, and I think in that situation, so saying, okay.
我试图把培训新人的职责分担或授权给其他人，这很好。
I'm going to try and offload or trying to maybe empower, you know, some other folks to take some role in training people, that's great.
但为什么我们会认为任何人不需要明确的培训就能做到这一点呢？
And why would we ever imagine that anybody could do that without some explicit training?
所以我无法想象任何人一觉醒来就能成为出色的什么人。
So I don't imagine that anybody rolls out of bed a good anything.
如果我们回到最初关于学习很困难的讨论，学习做任何事情都是困难的。
And if we go back to our initial conversation about learning is hard, learning how to do anything is hard.
但我觉得，作为社会整体，我们往往对事物的权重有些不同。
But I think that we as a in general, in society, we tend to weight things a little differently.
所以，我不认为，也不觉得大多数人会认为自己能给别人补牙，尽管我们每个人一生中可能都经历过，有些人经历得更多。
So, you know, I don't imagine, and I don't think most people imagine that they could give somebody a filling or something in their teeth even though we've all probably had them in our lives, you know, some people more than others.
我们通常，总的来说，会以一种‘纸上谈兵’的方式看待教学和学习。
We tend to, again, generally speaking, be armchair experts in a way when we think about teaching and learning.
因此，我认为当我们说‘嘿’的时候，实际上是对他人的一种不公。
And so I think we, again, do a disservice to folks when we say, hey.
这里有一份幻灯片。
Here's a slide deck.
去自己培训新人学习主题X吧，却不给他们任何指导、参数或如何实际操作的帮助。
Go off and and train some new people on subject matter x without giving them any guidance or parameters or any help in how you would actually do that.
我的意思是，我们为什么要认为，除了有针对性的具体指导之外，还能指望别人能做好这件事呢？
I mean, why would we imagine any more than wouldn't imagine you could give somebody a feeling that you could do that necessarily without some targeted specific guidance.
所以我认为这样做是有风险的，因为即使你拥有最聪明的人，他们也不一定知道如何将知识和经验传授给一个完全新人。
So I think that's just a risk to do that because, yeah, you could have the smartest person, but they don't necessarily know how to impart that knowledge and experience to a brand new person.
他们可能根本没想过，我需要掌握多少剂量的信息才合适？
They might not be thinking about what's the dosage of this that I need to be thinking about?
我该如何避免让这些新人感到 overwhelmed，同时又如何有意识地决定先教他们什么？
How can I not overwhelm these new people, but how can I be really intentional about what I'm gonna give them first?
如果我们考虑任何一种角色，总会有一些事情是你首先应该了解的，然后你可以去练习，接着再进入下一项，再进行练习。
And if we think about any role, there's always gonna be something that would behoove you to know first, then you can go off and do some practicing on that, and then you can come to the next thing, and then you can do some practicing on that.
知识就是这样积累起来的。
And that's how knowledge builds.
我不能在第一天就把所有东西都扔给你，因为我根本不知道该怎么做。
I can't just dump everything on you on the first day because I have no idea.
比如，我不知道这些事情中哪些是重要的。
Like, I don't know which of these things is important.
我到底该做什么？
What do I need to do?
亚历山大是谁？
Who is Alexandria?
你告诉我我应该去见她。
You're telling me I should meet her.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我应该去吗？
Should I?
她是老板吗，还是说 yeah。
Is she, like, the boss, or is she yeah.
我不知道。
I don't know.
所以帮助人们理解，你必须有意识地去设计这样的东西，并且要以一种可能有效的方式去做。
And so helping people to understand that you have to be intentional about how you're actually creating something like that, and you have to be doing it in a way that's going to hopefully be effective.
这不会偶然发生。
That's not gonna happen accidentally.
这会发生，因为你仔细思考过你要教给谁、以及我们之前提到的一些内容，并对此保持清醒的认识。
That's gonna happen because you've thought carefully about what it is you're teaching to whom and some of these things that we've already said and having an awareness of that.
我完全理解你之前提到的时间问题。
And I completely appreciate you mentioned earlier about time.
是的。
Yeah.
我完全理解人们。
I completely appreciate people.
对。
Yeah.
比如，我们根本没有足够的时间来做这件事。
Like, we don't have enough time to do this.
但如果我们认为这很重要，认为让员工积极参与工作很重要，那我们花大价钱招聘、经历整个招聘流程，为什么一旦他们入职，就没人管了呢？
But if we think it's important and we think that having people who are engaged in their work, you know, we spend all sorts of money hiring people and going through the whole recruitment and hiring phase, then why is the ball dropped once they actually get there into their position?
我们应该尽一切努力，在六个月内、甚至一年内，为新员工在新岗位、新组织中提供支持和指导，这个过程可以逐渐减少，比如一个人的入职培训可以持续一年。
We should be doing everything that we can to support and scaffold new people within a new role in a new organization for six months, a year, you know, and it can taper down to say somebody is being onboarded for a year.
这并不意味着他们一整年每天都得参加培训课程。
It doesn't have to mean that they are in training courses every day for a year.
它会减少。
It will reduce.
但再次强调，这关乎期望。
But, again, it speaks to expectations.
如果我是一名经理，我知道，好吧。
And if I am a manager and I know, okay.
这个人是新人。
This person is new.
他们正处于前六个月、第一年的适应期，我必须对他们有清晰明确的期望。
They've been you know, they're working through their first six months, their first year, and I need to be crystal clear on my expectations for them.
我必须非常清楚他们在组织中的定位。
I need to be very clear on where do they fit within this organization.
我需要确保他们感受到我重视他们的优势和所贡献的价值。
I need to make sure they see I value their strengths and what they're bringing.
你知道，我雇用这个人是有原因的，我需要让他们知道，我明白这一点。
You know, there's a reason I've hired that person, and I need them to know that I know that.
我需要让其他人也了解这一点。
I need to socialize that with other people.
我的意思是，你可以做很多事，但这些事并不会自然发生。
I mean, there's a whole bunch of things that you can do, but none of those things are happening necessarily organically.
因此，我认为在讨论学习过程以及它是如何运作的同时，我们也应该探讨一下有效学习所必需的条件。
And so I think that in as much as we can be talking about the learning process and be talking about how it works, what are some of the conditions that are necessary for effective learning.
因为工作场所中的学习——即使不谈正式的培训，而是指在岗位上、在日常经验中的学习——是非常重要的。
Because learning in the workplace, even not not even talking about a training session, but just learning in my role, in my day to day experience is really important.
我认为我们忽视了很多方面，没有充分考虑到这一点。
And I think we leave a lot on the table, and we don't consider that.
我很喜欢这个说法。
I love it.
上个星期六我刚上完一节瑜伽课，课程快结束时，老师说了些话，我现在是转述一下，他说：进步不是由强度来衡量的，而是由你的觉知决定的。
I was just in a yoga class this past Saturday, and right at the end of class, the teacher said something about, I'm gonna be paraphrasing now, but he said how progress is not measured by intensity, but by your awareness.
当你谈到这里的意图时，这让我想到，只需将意识带到你当前所处的阶段。
And where you're talking about intentionality here, it makes me think about by just bringing awareness to the stage that you're working on.
塞思·戈丁今年早些时候在播客上开玩笑说，这应该被称为‘有意识的培训师’。
Seth Godin joked earlier this year when he was on the podcast that this should be called the intentional trainer.
你认为这是否是一个简化的目标：无论你处于旅程中的哪个阶段，都是从无意识转向有意识地创造意图，并在你的工作中建立意图，进而帮助你所服务的人们在他们的学习旅程中也将这种意图融入他们的觉知中？
Do you think maybe that is a simplified goal that wherever you were in your journey, you went from accident to creating intention and creating intention in the work that you do and then helping maybe the people that you work for bring intention into their awareness as they're working on whatever the learning journey is for them.
我们时间不多了。
We're running out of time.
和你聊天我真的很开心。
I love talking to you.
在请你发言之前，我还有一个问题，这个问题很关键。
I have one more question before we turn it back to you, and it's very loaded.
如果
If
你能给我们的学习与发展专业人士、培训师们一条建议吗？无论他们是想营造学习型文化，还是仅仅希望让学习在培训项目中真正落地，你认为那条建议会是什么？
you could give one piece of advice to our l and d professionals, to trainers, whether they're creating a learning culture or they're just trying to make learning stick within training programs, whatever it may be, what would that piece of advice be?
这条建议是：每当你在设计学习体验时，首先要记住学习是如何发生的，而不是你希望它如何发生。
That piece of advice would be anytime you're thinking about designing a learning experience, first and foremost, before you've passed go or whatever the phrase is, you have to keep in mind how learning happens.
不是你希望它发生的方式，而是它真正发生的方式。
Not how you wish it happened, but how it really happens.
比如，学习到底是如何运作的？
Like, how does learning actually work?
我想这基于一个假设，即人们知道并理解这一点，但在我看来，如果他们真的理解了，这必须是你所做一切的指南针。
And I guess that is based on an assumption that folks know and understand that, but, hopefully, if they do, that has to be, in my opinion, the north star of anything that you're doing.
我认为，如果我们牢记这一点，想一想：
And I think if we keep that in mind and think, okay.
学习是如何发生的？
How does learning happen?
那么我就能思考我想教给谁，以及我的受众是谁。
Then I can think about what is it that I want to be teaching to somebody and who's my audience.
我把它想象成一个音响调音台。
I think about it like a sound mixing board.
如果你在一个录音棚里，面前有一堆小拨杆，你上下移动它们，但其实你也不知道它们具体是做什么的。
If you're in, like, a a recording studio and you've got all these little levers that you move up and down, you know, I don't know what they're doing.
我会想到这一点。
And I think about that.
我们可以掌握一些基于证据的优秀实践知识。
We can have some knowledge about some good evidence based practices.
我们也可以积累过去曾经有效的经验，诸如此类的东西。
We can have some experience in what's worked for us in the past, all of those types of things.
当我们设计学习体验或实际传授内容时，我们总会思考：我需要上调哪些因素，又需要下调哪些因素，才能始终聚焦于‘学习如何发生’这个核心目标，确保效果最大化。
And when we are designing a learning experience or we're actually delivering something, we're always thinking, okay, what do I need to nudge up and what do I need to, like, nudge down to keep focused on my north star of how learning happens and that I want this to be effective.
所以，如果你身处在线环境，那么我们从面对面环境中失去了什么？
And so if you're in an online environment, then, okay, what are we losing from an in person environment?
明白了。
Okay.
我需要做些什么来填补这个差距？
What do I need to do to fill in that gap?
或者我之前在那种情况下是怎么做的？
Or what do I need to do previously, I had this in that situation.
现在我没有了。
Now I don't have that.
我可以做些什么不同的事情？
What could I do differently?
这并不总是一成不变的，比如这个更差或更好。
It's not always a one way, like, oh, this is worse or better.
你知道的。
You know?
因为有时候，在线上环境中，如果人们比较害羞，他们反而更愿意参与。
Because sometimes it's, oh, in an online environment now, people are a little bit freer to participate there if if they're shy.
对吧？
Right?
所以我认为，关键还是要不断思考我们所处的环境是什么？
So I think it's, again, always thinking about what is the context that we're in?
这给我带来了哪些好处和坏处？
What is that bringing me in terms of a plus and a minus?
通过思考学习是如何发生的，我该如何做出一些调整呢？
And how can I by thinking about how learning happens, how can I, you know, make some modifications?
所以我认为，重要的是时刻牢记学习是如何发生的，并在实施和遵循所谓的最佳实践时保持高度灵活，因为这些实践可能会被神化。
So I think it's keeping in mind how learning happens and being deeply flexible in how you are implementing and adhering to, you know, best practices which can become fetishized.
我很喜欢。
I love it.
灵活应变是一种很好的技能，人们可能需要在这方面多加锻炼。
Being flexible and adaptable, that's a good skill that folks may have to work on.
好的。
Okay.
我们当然可以一直讨论下去，但希望这次对话能让你更了解茱莉亚，了解你对学习的思考方式。
We could keep talking about this, of course, forever, but hopefully, this has been a fun conversation to learn more about you and how you think about learning, Julia.
也告诉我们，你目前是如何学习和成长的，如何走出舒适区。
And tell us how you are currently learning and growing, getting out of your comfort zone.
你现在有没有在尝试学习一些困难的东西？
Are you putting yourself in a situation right now where you're learning something and it's hard?
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
我的意思是，我已经提到过两件事了。
So I I mean, I think I've already mentioned two things.
第一，我一直在学弹吉他，这非常让人谦卑，也非常困难。
One, I've been trying to learn how to play the guitar, and it's very humbling and very difficult.
我稍微休息了一下，但我会重新开始的。
And I've taken a bit of a break, but I'm gonna come back to it.
但这确实非常难。
So but that is very difficult.
我一个儿子告诉我，我总是不断换不同的歌来学。
And one of my sons said to me, I kept choosing different songs that I was trying to learn how to play.
我的老师很温柔，说：嘿。
My teacher was very sweet and saying, hey.
就弹一些你想弹的曲子吧。
Just play something that you want to play.
于是我的一个儿子对我说：你应该选Oasis的《Wonderwall》。
And so one of my sons said to me, he said, oh, you should choose Wonderwall by Oasis.
他说，他在密歇根上大学。
He said, he's in college at Michigan.
他还说，你知道吗，每次我们出去聚会、露营什么的，总会有个带着吉他的男生。
And he said, every guy, you know, like I see, you know, when we're out, like, doing whatever to party or camping or something, you've always got the guy who's got the guitar.
你一找上他，他总能弹《Wonderwall》。
You've picked up the guy, and and they can always play Wonderwall.
所以他觉得，既然这些大学生都能弹，那你肯定也能学会。
So he's like, if all of these college kids can play that, he's like, you can learn how to play that.
这个故事中令人沮丧的部分是，我到现在还弹不会。
So the humbling part of that story is is that I cannot play it yet.
我试过了。
I tried.
我在努力，但这非常困难。
I'm I'm trying, but it's very tricky.
所以这是第一点。
So that's one.
第二件事是我喜欢随便画画，我喜欢制作圣诞贺卡、节日贺卡和其他各种东西。
And the second thing is I love to dabble around with paint, and I like to make Christmas cards and holiday cards and different things.
但你知道，这主要是很多尝试和摸索。
But, you know, it's just a lot of experimenting.
我就试试各种东西。
And just I'll try stuff.
有时候能成功。
Sometimes it works.
有时候就不行。
Sometimes it doesn't.
但再说一遍，我总是在看一些小视频寻找灵感，心想，这个人做得真好，而我的画呢，颜料都渗到胶带下面了。
But, again, I'm always looking for inspiration from little videos and think, oh, this person's thing looks so good and mine's you know, the paint's all bled under the tape.
而且，是的，我正在学习这两件事，两者都很困难。
And, yeah, I'm learning how to do both those things, and both are difficult.
但我要说，在绘画方面，我觉得自己还是有了一点进步。
But I would say at least in the painting arena, I feel like I'm improving a little bit.
我知道我不能说自己很厉害，但通过练习，我能看出自己一点一点的进步。
You know, I'm not gonna say I'm good, but I can see a little bit of incremental improvement based on my practicing.
我对吉他特别好奇。
I'm so curious about guitar.
你以前玩过乐器吗？或者你识乐谱吗？
Have you played an instrument before, or do you read music?
因为那里面涉及的东西太多了。
Because there's, like, so many pieces to that.
我觉得难的是，你得在手上磨出茧子。
I think what's hard is, like, the calluses that you have to develop on your hands.
很疼。
It hurts.
你只能每次练习一段时间，之后必须休息一下，因为手会疼。
You can only practice for so much at a time before you need to take a little break because it hurts your hands.
是的。
Yeah.
真的会让手很疼。
It really hurts your hands.
所以我以前玩过音乐。
So I have played music.
我小时候弹过钢琴，所以能识谱。
I I played piano when I was a kid, and so I can read music.
但对我来说，我的手指好像有自己的想法。
But the thing for me is somehow my fingers have got minds of their own.
所以我的吉他老师会说，哦，就做这个、这个和这个。
So they you know, my guitar teacher will say, oh, just, you know, do this, this, and this.
我的手指就是不听使唤，它们做不到她认为它们应该能做到的事情。
And my fingers, they just they don't do the things that, you know, she thinks that they should be able to do.
所以对我来说，最大的挑战是，我能弹一个和弦，但当我需要换到另一个和弦时，你看电视上的人，他们的手指就这么轻轻一动就换好了。
And so for me, the big challenge is I could play one chord, but then if I have to change to another one, you know, you watch people on TV, they just kinda move their fingers like this.
我都不用看。
I don't even look.
我得低下头，像这样把手指一个个抬起来，再放到位。
I'm having to, like, look down and, like, kinda pick up my fingers and put them on the thing.
你知道吧？
You know?
所以，是的，
So, yeah,
这正是专家和新手之间的一个绝佳例子，当你看到他们切换手指到不同位置时，
that that's great example of the expert versus novice when you see them, like, switch fingers to the different
甚至看起来都不像他们脑子里有这个意识。
Not even doesn't even look like it even is in their mind.
他们只是轻轻移动手指，而我却必须实实在在地、有意识地把手指抬起来，放到正确的位置上。
They're just, like, moving their fingers, and I'm, like, having to lift them up literally and intentionally, like, place them on the things.
是的。
So yeah.
我懂这种感觉。
I've been there.
我知道你的痛苦。
I know I know your pain.
我 definitely 也把自己当成吉他新手，所以我很期待看到你的进步。
I would definitely consider myself also a beginner guitarist, so I can't wait to hear how your journey goes.
非常非常感谢你这次的对话。
Well, thank you so so much for this conversation.
这太有趣了，我们会分享你的网站和领英账号，以便与你联系。
It was so much fun, and we'll share your site, your LinkedIn to get in touch with you.
嘿。
Hey.
你曾为我们博客的‘学习科学’系列文章撰稿，希望你在2026年还能继续为我们写更多内容。
You've written for our blog, science of learning articles, and, hopefully, you'll write some more for us in 2026.
我一定会的。
I will indeed.
是的。
Yeah.
和你聊天真的非常愉快。
And it was such a pleasure to chat with you.
我肯定能和你聊上一整天。
I could chat with you all day for sure.
感谢您收听来自人才发展协会的这个播客。
Thanks for listening to this podcast from the Association for Talent Development.
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Be sure to check the show notes for resources mentioned in today's episode.
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