看好自动化和机器人技术，但不看好人形机器人 | Shahin Farshchi

嘿，Bankless Nation的听众们。

Hey, Bankless Nation.

本期节目，我请到了Shahin Farshchi。

In this episode, I talk to Shahin Farshchi.

他是Lux Capital的普通合伙人，这是一家专注硬科技的创投公司。

He is a general partner at Lux Capital, which is a hard tech venture firm.

他们投资前沿科技，比如人工智能、自动化、生物科技、机器人技术等等。

They invest in frontier technologies, AI, automation, biotech, robotics, just to name a few.

不涉及加密货币。

Not in crypto.

这期节目不是讲加密货币的。

This is not a crypto episode.

我想多了解一些机器人技术，而Shahin在自动化和机器人领域经验丰富。

I wanted to go learn a little bit more about robotics, And Shahin is a a veteran of automation and robotics.

自动化这个词非常重要。

Automation is a very important word.

现在关于人形机器人有很多炒作和兴奋。

There's a lot of hype and excitement about humanoid robotics.

你知道，特斯拉的擎天柱，Figure机器人，还有Andrew King真的进入了加密货币行业，一直在谈论机器人和人形机器人。

You know, the Tesla Optimus Prime, the figure robot, You know, and Andrew King really came into, the crypto industry really talking about, like, robotics and humanoid robotics.

我想学习一下这方面的知识。

And I wanted to learn I wanna learn about that.

我想了解机器人技术以及相关的投资领域。

I wanna learn about robotics and the the investing space around there.

Shahin投资机器人领域已经超过十年了。

Shahin has been investing in robotics for a decade plus.

所以他见过不少世面，也经历了几轮机器人的炒作周期。

And so he's seen a thing or two, and he's been around a few hype cycles in robotics.

所以他可能是这个行业最顶尖的专家了。

And so he's just probably the foremost expert on this industry.

所以我很荣幸能请他来做这次对话，从一个了解所有细节的人那里，了解加密货币之外的前沿科技领域，我觉得这个领域将会非常有影响力。

And so I'm pretty honored to be able to host him on this conversation and just learn about a sector outside of crypto that's in frontier technology that, I think is going to be very, very impactful from somebody who just knows all the ins or outs.

那么，开场白就到这里，Shahin，欢迎来到Bankless。

And so with that preamble out of the way, Shahin, welcome to Bankless.

谢谢你邀请我，David。

Thank you for having me, David.

Shahin，现在机器人领域的热度非常高。

Shahin, there has been a ton of hype around robotics.

我觉得很多人都是第一次接触机器人这个行业。

And I think a lot of people are learning about the robotics sector for the very first time.

所以这也是我联系你和Lux的原因，我想请一位资深人士来节目，听听他们对机器人行业的看法。

And so this is why I reached out to you and Lux cause I wanna get a veteran on the show to ask a veteran what they think about the robotics industry.

这股热潮一直在不断升温。

There's just been a crescendoing of hype.

虽然热潮让人兴奋，也很有趣，是个学习的机会，但同时也可能带来风险。

And while hype is exciting and it's fun and it's an opportunity to learn, and it can also be dangerous.

所以我想问你的第一个问题是，机器人领域的热潮是否合理？

And so I think the first question I want to throw at you is, is the hype around robotics justified?

你怎么看？

What do you think?

是的。

Yes.

绝对合理。

It's absolutely justified.

好。

Okay.

好。

Okay.

这个回答挺简单的。

That's a pretty simple answer.

那机器人热潮，我觉得，是源于很多产品或公司推出了人形机器人。

What so the hyper run robotics, I think, comes downstream of, like, a lot of products or companies coming live with humanoid robots.

这是让你对机器人感到兴奋的原因吗？

Is that what gets you excited about robotics?

人形机器人这部分，比如特斯拉擎天柱机器人那种，是不是也是同一个方向？

The humanoid element, the figure in Tesla Optimus Prime robots, is that the same?

因为那才是我关注的领域。

Because that's my sector.

在我这边，让大家兴奋的就是这个。

That's what are getting people excited in my neck of the woods.

你那边也是一样吗？

Is that the same for you?

不是。

No.

其实我对人形机器人没那么兴奋。

So I'm not particularly excited about the humanoids.

我兴奋的是最近这一波AI创新，加上便宜的制造成本，还有能力去做出那些极其复杂的系统，而且价格非常低。

I'm excited about the the the most recent wave of innovations in AI and cheap manufacturing and the ability to make things that are extremely complicated, systems that are very complicated at a very low price.

所以你把智能和低成本制造结合起来，就能做出以前在某些应用场景下根本不可能实现的产品。

So you combine the intelligence with the cheap manufacturing together and you have products otherwise wouldn't have been possible for certain use cases.

机器人技术并不是新东西，自动化也不是新东西，我们已经有几十年的自动化历史了，甚至可以说将近一个世纪，从福特创立流水线开始就有了。

Robotics is not new, automation isn't new, we've had automation for decades, if not a century, with the advent of the assembly line, with the creation of Ford.

所以我的看法是，在过去，我觉得大概十五年里，随着人工智能的发展，比如2010年代初的卷积神经网络，以及机械臂成本持续下降，我们看到了一波全新的机器人应用浪潮。我认为人形机器人是这种趋势的一种体现，但我个人对机器人和自动化的热情并不是源于人形机器人，而是源于更宏观的顺风趋势，也就是驱动机器人的软件，以及软件所运行的硬件变得越来越普及和便宜。

And so my view is that over the past, I would say fifteen years with AI in the form of convolutional neural nets in the early 2010s and the continued slope of cost reduction with robotic arms, we've seen a whole new wave of new robotics applications and I think the humanoid robotics are a manifestation of that but my personal excitement in robotics and automation isn't rooted in the humanoids, is rooted in this more macro tailwind around the software that drives the robots and the commoditization of the hardware that the software runs on.

如果你回到1970年代，当时也有类似的机会，类似的时刻，那就是微处理器集成到机器人技术中，微处理器在当时就相当于我们今天的人工智能。

If you rewind back to say the 1970s, there was a similar opportunity, a similar moment around the integration of microprocessors, which were the equivalent of AI of our time into robotics.

正是这样，机器人技术才进入了汽车制造等领域。

And that's how you saw robotics enter into, for example, automotive manufacturing.

当时有那些机械臂，它们具备一定的智能，可以被编程到非常精细的规格，执行非常具体的任务，比如焊接、铆接、涂胶、喷漆，还有各种检查工作。

You had these robotic arms that had a level of intelligence in them that allowed them to be programmed to very fine specifications, do very specific tasks like welding, riveting, gluing, painting, various types of inspections.

正是这些，开启了机器人技术向更广泛的制造业快速普及的进程。

And that's what began this rapid proliferation of robotics into the broader manufacturing setting.

而今天，你走进大多数汽车制造工厂，汽车制造中的很多基本步骤已经完全自动化了。

Whereas today, you walk into most automotive manufacturing facilities, a lot of the basic steps in automotive manufacturing are completely automated.

你根本看不到任何人在参与，直到后面的步骤，比如内饰的各种部件、线束、玻璃开始安装到车上的时候，才会有人出现。

You don't see any people involved at all until the later steps where various parts of the interior, the wiring harnesses, the glass are starting to be installed in the vehicle.

我们今天看到的，正如你提到的，是很多向大公司供货的企业也在享受自动化的好处。

And what we're seeing today to the point that you brought up is a lot of the companies that sell into these larger companies also having the benefit of automation.

所以，你走进福特工厂，会看到大量自动化设备，但如果你走进那些为福特工厂供应零部件的工厂，可能看不到那么多自动化，因为他们没有预算，没有投资能力，无法像福特那样在自动化上投入。

So when you walk into a Ford factory, you see a ton of automation, but if you walk into the factory that sells the components that are sold into the Ford factory, you may not see as much automation because they don't have the budgets, they don't have the investment to be able to invest the way Ford can invest in its automation.

而现在，随着人工智能的发展，就像现在任何人都能轻松生成代码一样，编程机器人也变得同样容易，而且这些机器人正变得越来越便宜。

And now what we're seeing with AI is just like how it is now easy for anybody to generate code, it's becoming as easy for anyone to program a robot and these robots are getting very cheap.

所以现在，很多以前用不起机器人的公司，

And so now you're seeing a lot of these companies otherwise didn't have access to robots.

很多以前接触不到机器人的行业，

These industries otherwise didn't have access to robots.

现在都能以我们前所未见的方式用上机器人了。

Now getting access to them in a way we hadn't seen before.

这就是让我对机器人感到兴奋的原因，可能和你或者其他人的兴奋点不太一样。

So that's what catalyzes my excitement around robots, which may be slightly different than what's catalyzing yours or perhaps others' excitement around robotics.

我可能属于少数派，你知道，我持乐观态度，但我不像其他人那样对人形机器人目前的发展感到兴奋。

And I would just perhaps be in the minority of folks that probably, you know, I'm optimistic, but I'm not as excited about what we're seeing right now in humanoid robots yet as perhaps others are.

我确实想跟你聊聊人形机器人，但我觉得也许值得先放一放，留到后面再说，先深入聊聊你刚才讲的那些。

I do want to talk to you about humanoid robotics, but I think maybe it's worth putting a pin in that and just saving that for later and really diving into what you just discussed right now.

也许我可以试着总结一下你的兴奋点，其实就是智能与自动化的结合。

Maybe if I could just try and summarize your excitement is is is really about the integration of intelligence into automation.

而且在自动化领域，智能还带来了成本降低和通缩效应，让自动化变得更便宜。

And inside of automation, it's in addition to that, it intelligence is allowing for, you know, cost reduction deflation for what it means to automate things.

所以这其实是自动化与智能的碰撞，以及自动化能够应用到越来越多行业的可及性。

And so it's a it's about the collision of automation and intelligence and also the accessibility of automation to be applied to to more and more industries.

这就是你作为投资者真正感到兴奋的地方。

And that's what you really get excited about as an investor

没错。

That's right.

而且作为一个热衷于推动美国GDP增长的人。

And as somebody who is excited about like growing the GDP of The United States.

这是合理的。没错。

This is a fair That's right.

总结一下你的兴奋点？

Summary of your excitement?

作为投资者，大卫，很多风投对巨大的市场和竞争优势以及垄断性业务感到兴奋。

As an investor, David, many VCs are excited about giant markets and unfair advantages and monopolistic businesses in those markets.

我特别兴奋的是创造新市场的机会，这些市场之前并不存在。

I'm particularly excited about opportunities to create markets where none exists.

我们在机器人领域看到的是，由于你提到的那些原因，以前不存在机器人市场的地方，现在正在被创造出来。

And what we're seeing with robotics is that markets for robotics are being created where markets for robots previously didn't exist for the reasons that you mentioned.

人工智能、软件、硬件的商品化，现在正在创造出一个以前不存在的市场。

The AI, the software, the commoditization of the hardware, which is now creating a market where one didn't exist.

而且有些公司现在有能力去主导这些新兴市场。

And there's companies out there that are in a position to now dominate those nascent markets.

我们能稍微定义一下术语吗？

Can we try and define some terms a little bit?

我们一直在说机器人和自动化。

We're using robotics and we're also using automation.

这两个词是一样的吗？

Are those the same terms?

它们有区别吗？

Are they different?

我们在讨论这个行业的时候，应该怎么理解这些概念？

And how should we think about these things when we were talking about this industry?

问得好。

Good question.

我把自动化看作解决问题的方案。

So I look at automation as a solution to a problem.

自动化涉及很多方面。

So there are many aspects associated with automation.

有融资方面的。

There's a financing aspect associated to it.

有工程方面的，跟机器人本身没什么关系。

There's an engineering aspect associated with it, has nothing to do with the robot.

你如何设计你的工厂车间和工作流程，以便能够从机器人的参与中受益？

How do you engineer your factory floor and your workflows to be able to benefit from robotic participation?

它本身是物理机器人。

It is the physical robot itself.

它是运行在机器人上的软件。

It's the software that runs on the robot.

它是为维护机器人并确保它们99.999%的时间都在运行而建立的系统。

It's the systems that are put in place to maintain the robots and make sure that they're up 99.999% of the time.

所以我认为所有这些资源最终汇聚到自动化任务的目标上，都属于自动化的范畴，而物理机器人和运行在机器人上的软件只是其中的一部分。

And so I view all of those, resources culminating in the end goal of the automation of a task to fall under that envelope of automation with the physical robots and the software that is running on that robot being a component of that?

但这是个好问题。

But that's a great question.

自动化是一个大的类别，我们需要很多机器人来创建自动化的过程，但自动化和机器人不是一回事。

Automation is the broad category and we'd need a bunch of robots to create the process of automation, but automation and robots are not the same thing.

对。

Correct.

机器人显然能实现自动化，但自动化是由机器人来完成的。

Robots obviously automate, but auto Robots do the automation.

是的。

Yes.

仅限于机器人。

Limited to to robots.

自我托管赢了，但它仍然存在可用性问题。

Self custody won, but it still has a usability problem.

写在纸上的助记词仍然是单点故障。

A seed phrase on paper is still a single point of failure.

手机会丢，设备会坏，备份会消失。

Phones get lost, devices break, backups disappear.

BITKEY 就是为这种现实而设计的自我托管硬件钱包。

BITKEY is a self custodial hardware wallet built for that reality.

它采用 2/3 多重签名，密钥分散在你的手机、BITKEY 硬件设备和 BLOCK 上。

It uses a two of three multisig with keys split across your phone, the BITKEY hardware device, and BLOCK.

没有任何一把单独的钥匙能移动你的比特币，而且BLOCK也永远无法单独移动它。

No single key can move your Bitcoin, and block can never move it alone.

没有助记词需要担心丢失或泄露，如果你丢了手机、你的BITKEY，或者两者都丢了，内置的恢复功能也能让你找回路径。

There's no seed phrase to lose or expose, and if you lose your phone, your BITKEY, or both, built in recovery gives you a path back.

硬件屏幕还能让你在批准交易前确认目的地地址。

The hardware screen also lets you verify the destination before approving a transaction.

这就是关键所在。

And that's the point.

更多的控制权，而不会因为一个失误就让一切陷入风险。

More control without one mistake putting everything at risk.

所以今天就下载BitKey，使用促销码bankless，享受10%的折扣。

So download BitKey today and use promo code bankless to get 10% off of your BitKey.

本期节目由BitKey赞助播出。

This episode has been sponsored by BitKey.

市场不会只单独移动一种资产。

Markets don't move one asset at a time.

今天比特币，明天英伟达，后天黄金，再后天就是标普500。

One day, it's Bitcoin, the next Nvidia, then gold, and then the S and P.

但大多数交易者仍然在不同的平台、不同的账户和不同的资金池里管理他们的投资组合。

But most traders are still managing their portfolio across different platforms, different accounts, and different pools of capital.

BITGET刚刚改变了这一点。

BITGET just changed that.

他们的新产品Stocks 2.0让你可以直接用USDT交易代币化股票，而且就在你已经在用的加密货币应用里。

Their new stocks two point o product lets you trade tokenized equities directly with USDT, all inside the same app you already use for crypto.

这不仅仅是又一个代币化股票产品。

This is not just another tokenized stock product.

Stocks 2.0的设计注重更深的流动性、更快的执行速度，以及市场上最低的费用，仅为0.04%，并且与标的股票有1:1的经济敞口。

Stocks two point o is designed around deeper liquidity, faster execution, and the lowest fees on the market at just point zero four percent and one to one economic exposure to the underlying stock.

股息、股票拆分和其他公司行为都会自动反映，让你的持仓与你真正想要敞口的资产保持一致。

Dividends, stock splits, and other corporate actions are reflected automatically, helping your position stay aligned with the asset you actually want exposure to.

一个平台，一个账户，多个市场——加密货币、股票、大宗商品等等，都可以用USDT访问。

One platform, one account, multiple markets, crypto equities, commodities, and more, all accessible with USDT.

BITKEY。

BITKEY.

更聪明地交易。

Trade smarter.

今天就通过节目说明中的链接开始交易吧。

Start trading today through the link in the show notes.

这不是投资建议。

This is not investment advice.

我交易加密货币差不多十年了，这些年用过很多不同的钱包、交易所、聚合器，还有各种前端，我一直在找同一个东西。

I've been trading crypto for almost a decade, and I've used so many different wallets, exchanges, aggregators, different front ends over the years, and I'm always kind of looking for the same thing.

就是一个界面，能提供多条链和多种资产的深度流动性，让我可以进入所有市场，比如永续合约、赚取收益、保密交易，同时还能自己掌控所有资金。

Just one interface with deep liquidity across a bunch of chains and assets where I can access all the markets like perps, earn yield, trade confidentially, and still control all my own funds.

但我一直没找到这种体验，总是换来换去钱包，忙着处理燃料费，还被滑点吃掉不少利润。

And I've never really found this experience, and I'm always switching wallets, juggling gas fees, and just getting eaten by slippage.

Near.com 不是那样的。

Near.com is not that.

对我来说，这感觉完全不一样。

It feels fundamentally different to me.

我可以从任何链上做我想做的一切，而且我的所有活动都是保密的。

I can do everything I want from any chain, and I keep all my activity confidential.

我甚至还能秘密地赚取收益。

I can even earn yield confidentially.

这才是加密货币应该有的样子。

It's the way crypto should work.

near.com钱包由NEAR提供支持，已经通过后量子签名跨链转移了超过250亿美元，并且主网上线五年多来零停机。

The near.com wallet is powered by NEAR, and it's moved over $25,000,000,000 cross chain using post quantum signing and has run over five years on main net with zero downtime.

near.com简直就是在链上操作并掌控一切的最佳方式。

Near.com is simply the best way to be on chain and be in control.

通过节目说明中的bank list链接，你可以拿回20%的交易手续费，这不是投资建议。

Get 20% of your trading fees back using the bank list link in the show notes, not investment advice.

然后我觉得，还有一个泛化能力的范围。

And then there's a there's a spectrum of generalizability I feel.

我觉得大家脑子里可能都有一个画面，就是那种前向平台，上面有个固定的机械臂，可以活动、移动，它做了很多实际的工作，但感觉非常精准。

I think people probably have an image in their head of the, like, the forward floor and there's like a fixed arm that can actuate and move and it, you know, it does a lot of the actual work, but it feels very precise.

感觉非常锁定。

It feels very locked in.

它就是为了做那一件事而设计的。

It's meant to do that one job.

也许大家也能想到亚马逊的仓库，你知道，就是那些小机器人在跑来跑去搬运包裹，它们不是固定的，可能它们比造车的机械臂稍微通用一些。

Maybe people can also think of an Amazon floor of, you know, little robots running around moving packages and they're not fixed and they maybe they can maybe they're slightly more generalized than the car building arm.

关于机器人的通用性，是不是有一个谱系可以讨论？你是不是特别看好某个通用性区间？还是说在机器人和自动化领域，这个话题其实讨论得不多？

Is there a spectrum to discuss about the generalizability of robots and are you particularly bullish on a on a region of generalizability or is this not really a subject that is discussed much when it comes to robotics and automation?

我觉得自动化解决方案和问题集一样广泛。

I feel like the automation solutions are as broad as the problem set.

所以就像你说的，亚马逊仓库里订单履行的问题和组装汽车零部件的问题是非常不同的。

So as you stated, the problem associated with order fulfillment in an Amazon warehouse is very different from the problem associated with assembling the components of a vehicle.

这是两个非常不同的问题，需要非常不同的自动化解决方案。

They're two very different problems and they demand very different automation solution.

我能理解，从创始人或投资人的角度来看，他们当然会大力宣传自己的投资或公司，说它是解决所有问题的万能方案。

Now I can see from the perspective of a founder or from the perspective of an investor in a company to be motivated to champion their investments or their company as the singular solution to all problems.

这样宣传是有经济动机的，就是说，我造的这个东西能解决自动化领域的所有问题，而且它有人形外观，因为人类做的任务很多，甚至大多数任务都是人形的。

There is economic motivation in presenting that picture that, hey, I'm building a widget that's going to solve every problem associated with automation and it has a human form factor because humans do many tasks, if not most tasks.

我觉得这更多是出于经济考虑，而不是实际需求。

I would argue that that is more of an economically driven argument more so than a practical one.

我看待世界和机会的方式是，特定的应用场景最适合特定类型的机器人和自动化解决方案。

The way I view the world and the way I view the opportunity is that specific applications are best suited to certain types of robotics in automation solutions.

所以我的预期是，未来会有人形机器人来承担一部分目前由人类完成的任务，但它们只是众多自动化解决方案中的一种，这些方案会有各种不同的形态。

And so my expectation is that there will be an opportunity for a humanoid form factor machine that does some subset of tasks that are performed by humans today, but they will be one of many automation solutions that will take on many shapes and forms.

比如，现在福特工厂里用的机器人是一个机械臂，上面有焊枪和传感器，它跟亚马逊仓库里那些来回搬运箱子的机器人小车几乎没有任何相似之处，那些小车要么是用于上架，要么是用于订单拣选。

So if you look at the robot that is used in the Ford factory today, that is an arm, that has, for example, a welder and defector, it probably has zero resemblance to the robotic carts in an Amazon warehouse that shuttles boxes from one location of the warehouse to another for either stocking or order fulfillment.

这些机器人之间几乎没什么共同点，除了可能都是用金属和塑料做的。

These robots have practically nothing to do with each other, except perhaps both being made from metal and plastic.

它们可能都有一些芯片和摄像头，但相似之处可能也就到此为止了，不过它们各自在最终应用中都能带来巨大的价值。

And I think that's what having some computer chips in them and cameras on them, but perhaps that's where the resemblance ends, yet both bring significant value to their end use cases.

所以我的预期是，那些特定的外形因素会继续与类人机器人一起发展，它们会在市场上找到自己的位置。

And so it's my expectation that those specific foreign factors will continue to proliferate alongside the humanoids, which will have their own place in the market.

但就我个人而言，我不认为有哪个单一解决方案能解决所有问题，因为我觉得没有一个方案能最好地适用于大多数问题。

But I personally, as none of one, don't see a single solution dominating all problems because I just don't think a single solution will be able to be best served to most problems.

那么你会说，类人机器人是其中的一个极端，而它之所以有趣、吸引人，可能是因为这种外形在各家公司之间是一致的。

So would you say that there is the humanoid end of the spectrum and maybe one of the reasons why that's fun and sexy to talk about is that the form factor is going to be consistent across companies.

而且，它们看起来像我们，所以我们会对它们感到兴奋。

And, I mean, they look like us, and so we can get excited about them.

但我刚才听你说的是，这可能是唯一一致的外形。

But I think what I just heard you say is that that's kinda gonna be the only consistent form factor.

当我们谈到实现自动化所需的其他机器人时，外形会非常多样化，互不重叠，而且高度定制化，以满足特定需求。

And when we talk about the rest of robotics that it takes to create automation, the form factors are going to be highly heterogeneous and non overlapping and specific and tailored to their needs.

而让这一切运转起来的一个关键因素，就是我们之前提到的，降低整个行业的成本，让这个行业能够起步。

And one of the reasons why we need to make one of the inputs that we need to make that world work is the deflation and cost of creating this whole industry in the first place which we talked about earlier.

你同意这个看法吗？

Would you agree with that assessment?

大体上，我会说是的。

I would say yes, broadly.

这些机器人里有些组件，在不同应用场景下会是通用的。

There are components that go into these robots that will be consistent across use cases.

比如摄像头、力传感器、减速齿轮组、编码器、电源管理系统，

The cameras, the force sensors, the reduction gear sets, the encoders, the power management systems,

还有实际的手臂。

the actual arms.

就是那些基础部件，基础部件。

The building blocks, the building blocks

举个例子，你看智能手机，它可能和一台小型廉价笔记本电脑长得不太像。

will For be example, if you look at a smartphone, it may have little resemblance with, for example, a laptop, a small inexpensive laptop.

手机的使用场景可能和iPad很不一样，但手机里的很多技术，比如基于ARM的处理器、内存、WiFi接口、视频驱动，甚至LCD屏幕本身，虽然形态不同，规格也不同，但它们共享相同的基本技术架构。

The use case for the cell phone may be very different from the use case, let's say for example, for an iPad, yet a lot of the technology that goes into the phone, the ARM based processor, the memory, the wifi interface, the video driver, even the LCD screen itself, There are different form factors, they have different specifications, but they share the same basic technological architecture.

甚至它们的操作系统可能共享成千上万行代码，但基于相似的技术基础，却用于非常不同的使用场景。

Even their operating systems may share many, many thousands of lines of code, but they're used for very different use cases with a similar technology basis.

所以当你看到一个机器人手臂在做焊接时，它可能和做铆接的机器人有相同的电机、编码器、力传感器和摄像头，但做铆接的机器人可能有更大的运动范围。

So when you see a robotic arm that is doing welding, it may have the same motors, encoders, force sensors, cameras as the robot that's doing the riveting but the robot that's doing the riveting may have a larger, for example, range of motion.

它上面装有不同的末端执行器，所以它是为那个用途设计的，虽然那个用途很广泛，但还没有广泛到能为所有人做所有事。

It has a different end effector attached to it And so it is engineered for that use case, yet that use case is very broad, but not as broad as doing everything for everybody.

所以我一般不太认同那种“我们要造一个能做所有任务的机器人”的说法，因为我觉得一个能做所有任务的机器人很难比得上一个专门做某项任务的机器人。

So I generally take issue with the notion of we're building a robot that's going to perform all tasks because I think it'll be very difficult for a robot that performs all tasks to be better than a robot that's specialized to a certain task?

那为什么有人不用专门做那项任务的机器人呢？

And why would someone not use a robot that specialized to that certain task?

所以在专业化到通用化的这个谱系里，我觉得瓶颈是，如果我们确实有制造机器人的所有原材料，我们有动力，有执行器，有滚珠轴承，真正的限制是能否根据实际任务把它们组装成合适的形态。

And so I on these on the specialization end of the spectrum, the specialization to generalization spectrum, I guess the bottleneck is if we indeed do have all of the raw ingredients that it takes to make a robot, we have the power, we have the actuators, the ball bearings, the really, the constraint is the ability to put them in the right package according to the actual task at hand.

这是目前的瓶颈吗？

Is that the current constraint?

对。

Is great.

我们有零件，但需要把它们组装成正确的形状，这部分可能更难，因为排列所有零件的方式太多了，比……你知道，有太多可能的排列方式，所以有点难以想象。

We have the pieces, but we need to put them in the right shapes, and that part can be more difficult because there's more possible shapes to order all the pieces in than could than than you know, it you there's so many possible shapes to order all the pieces that it's a little bit hard to bear.

这个评估合理吗？

Is that is that a fair assessment?

这就是为什么你只在大型工业环境中看到机器人普及。

And that's why you've only seen robotics proliferate in these larger industrial settings.

福特有数千万美元可以投入到专门做这个的公司。

Ford has tens of millions of dollars that it can deploy to companies who specialize in this.

比如霍尼韦尔、Thematic、Symbotic、WinRite这些公司。

Companies like Honeywell, Thematic, Symbotic, WinRite.

这些公司专门为特定应用场景设计机器人解决方案。

These companies who specialize in engineering robotic solutions for a particular use case.

以福特为例，就是装配线。

In Ford's case, it will be an assembly line.

比如，把铝板放进冲压机的机器人，把冲压好的铝板从冲压机里拿出来再放进另一台冲压机的机器人。

So the robots that, for example, put a sheet of aluminum into a staff, The robots that take those sheets of aluminum, the stamped aluminum out of the stamp put into another stamp.

还有末端装有摄像头、用来检查冲压件有没有缺陷的机器人。

And then the robot that has a camera at the end that inspects the stamped part to make sure there's no defects.

然后，有一个机器人把两块冲压金属片拼在一起，另一个机器人，也就是第三个机器人，负责焊接这两块冲压金属片。

And then the robot that puts two pieces of stamped metal together and the other robot, a third robot doing the weld between those pieces of sheet metal, those stamped pieces of sheet metal.

接着，还有机器人负责铆接和涂胶，然后把它们浸入酸液槽中，还有负责喷漆的机器人。

And then robots doing the riveting and the gluing and then lowering it into a bath of acid and the robots that are doing the painting.

所以有很多任务需要自动化，需要集成商来设计，这非常昂贵。

So there are many tasks that need to be automated, that need to be engineered by the integrator, which is extremely expensive.

而今天，很少有公司能负担得起用我们至今可用的传统技术来做这件事。

And there are few companies today that can afford to do that with the legacy technology that was available to us till today.

我的热情源于我们之前讨论的内容，这些机器人变得越来越便宜，让它们变得有用的工程设计也变得越来越容易获得。就像现在任何人都能对着电脑说话并生成代码一样，我预见到未来有人可以对着一个由人工智能驱动的界面说话，然后它就会给机器人编程，让它执行特定任务，而不是需要你雇一个工程师来做这件事。

And my enthusiasm is rooted to the earlier part of the conversation and these robots becoming less expensive and the engineering that goes into making them useful becoming far more accessible, just like how anybody can now speak to a computer and generate code, I see a future where someone can speak to an interface powered by AI that will then program the robot to do a specific task rather than you having to hire an engineer to do that for you.

我们会看到自动化被更快速地采用，在更多以前没有这种条件的场景中。

And we'll see the more rapid adoption of automation and more and more settings that until now didn't have that access.

所以你说得对。

So you're right.

这确实是需要把各个组件组合起来，并构建所有必要的软件和工具，才能让你为特定用途构建的系统真正发挥作用。

It is taking the individual components and building all the software and the tools that you need to actually make that system that you build for your use case useful?

这感觉有点像在搭建一个开发者平台，我们手头有所有基本材料，需要让人们能够去摆弄、去玩，你知道的，把各个部分组合起来，以满足他们的需求。

It feels like kind of building a developer platform of sorts in that we just we have all the basic ingredients and we need to be able to allow people to tinker with, play with, you know, combine all of the pieces in order to suit their needs.

让这一切变得越来越容易上手，就能让市场把自动化应用到更深、更细分、更具体的领域，只要我们能够想办法让机器人技术变得开放、更容易接触。

And making this more and more accessible is going to find allow the market to place automation in deeper, more niche, more specific parts of the market so long as we can just figure out how to open up robotics to just and be more accessible.

差不多就是这种感觉。

That's kinda what it feels like.

这正是现在很多公司在做的事情，也是让我充满热情的原因。

That's what companies are doing today, which fuels my enthusiasm.

我给你举个例子。

I'll give you an example.

好的。

Okay.

对。

Yeah.

跟我说说看。

Tell me about them.

所以，如果你想开发一个机器人来做某种非结构化的任务。

So if you wanted to develop a robot that does some kind of unstructured task.

比如说，把两块金属板焊接在一起，这是一个非常结构化的任务。

So when you're talking about welding two pieces of sheet metal together, it is a very structured task.

精度要达到千分之一毫米，你知道机器人末端执行器要去哪里，也知道它具体在做什么。

You are within the thousands of a millimeter, you know where this robotic end effector is going and you know exactly what it's doing.

但如果是那种不太结构化的任务，开发自动化就变得极其困难。

When you're talking about the less structured task, it becomes extremely challenging to develop automation for.

如果快进到今天，像我们投资的Physical Intelligence这样的公司，正在构建专门处理各种非结构化任务的模型。

If you fast forward to today, have companies like physical intelligence that we invested in, that are building models that specialize in various unstructured tasks.

他们把这些模型中的很多都放到了开源代码库上，供机器人专家使用，并根据各自的具体应用场景进行微调。

And they're putting many of those models on open source repositories for roboticists to use and fine tune for their individual use cases.

这非常强大，对社区来说是一个巨大的推动力，而这是直到最近才出现的。

This is extremely powerful and a huge enabler for the community that didn't exist until very recently.

以前需要很多博士、数百万美元资金和多年时间才能完成的事情，现在一个本科生，甚至可能一个高中生，下载安装其中一个模型，然后微调机器人去执行特定任务就能做到。

So what would have required many PhDs and millions of dollars of funding and many years now can be achieved by an undergraduate student, maybe even a high school student downloading and installing one of these models and fine tuning the robot to perform a specific task.

那你接下来可能会问，为什么现在机器人还没有到处都是呢？

Now, your question, follow on question could be, well, why don't we have robots everywhere today?

那是因为我们还需要做一些工作，让这些机器人更可靠、更快，并且能和劳动力竞争。

Is that we still have some work to do to make these robots more reliable and to make them faster and to make them competitive with labor.

如果你愿意，我们可以深入聊聊劳动力在机器人普及中扮演的角色。

And we can get into that if you'd like on the role that labor has in the proliferation of robotics.

我确实想聊聊这个。

I do wanna get into that.

让我再问你最后一个问题。

Let me ask you this one last question.

我本来想问，我们是不是正处于机器人领域重大突破的边缘？

It it seems I was going to ask you, are we on the cusp of something big in robotics?

但听起来，我的意思是，我们有AI，有不断下降的自动化成本，感觉我们已经有了所有原材料，所以很接近了。

But it sounds like, and what I mean by that is that, you know, we have AI, we have, you know, decreasing cost of automation, feels like we have the raw ingredients, and so we're close.

你知道，我们离那个临界点很近了。

You know, we're close to a cusp.

听起来好像我们其实已经过了那个临界点，事情真的在朝着这个方向推进了。

It kinda sounds like we're actually the cusp is behind us and actually the ball is materially rolling towards this direction.

就像你说的，作为消费者，比如我在纽约街头走，还没感觉到什么变化。但在工厂里，智能的前沿正在推进，进展也在不断取得。

To your point, we don't, as me as a consumer, you know, somebody who walks around the streets of New York is not impacting my life yet, But in the factories, the frontier of this intelligence is progressing and progress is being made.

我们还没有达到所需的那种极高的可靠性，但从自动化和机器人领域的进步来看，这已经是一个质的飞跃，而且这个势头已经起来了，不再是会不会的问题了。

We don't quite yet have the very high reliability that we need, but in terms of, you know, a step function change in progress in the world of automation and robotics, it sounds like that ball is already rolling and it's not a it's no longer an if.

它已经在发生了。

It's already, like, happening now.

对吧？

Is that correct?

没错。

That's right.

我喜欢用的一个类比，以及我用来支持你观点的证据，就是算力。

And the analogy that I like to use and the evidence that I have that points to the theme that you're sharing is compute.

看看七八十年代，那时候人们把计算机看作硬件设备。

If you look at the 70s and 80s, people regarded computers as pieces of hardware.

那时候你一想到电脑，就会想到处理器速度有多快，内存有多大。

When you thought about a computer, you thought about what the processor speed was, how much RAM did it have?

图形界面是什么样的？

What was the graphics interface?

这就是80年代个人电脑的定义，而真正的爆发点，我觉得是互联网出现的时候，电脑不再被看作是一种资本设备，或者某种物理的机器。

That was what defined personal computing in the 80s and the rapid proliferation occurred that, I guess that tipping point occurred with the internet and compute was no longer regarded as a piece of, let's say, capital equipment, something physical or a machine.

它被看作是一种能力。

It was regarded as a capability.

你上网、看内容、存文件，而物理硬件完全被抽象掉了。

You went on the internet, you consumed content, you stored your files and the physical hardware was completely abstracted away.

我觉得我们现在正处于机器人领域的早期90年代，就像你和我现在聊天，我们还在讨论物理机器人。

I feel like right now we're in the equivalent of the early 90s of compute with robotics where when you and I have a conversation, we're still talking about the physical robots.

我们在讨论机器本身，讨论塑料、轴承和软件。

We're talking about the machine, we're talking about the plastic and the bearings and the software.

我们还没有在讨论机器能产出什么。

We're still not talking about the outputs of the machine.

重点不在于机器本身的产出，而在于今天计算能力的产出，这正是大规模普及的体现。

The emphasis is not on the output of the machine, the way the emphasis today is on the output of compute, which is evidence of this mass proliferation.

所以我觉得我们正朝着那个方向前进，逐渐忽略那些塑料、金属和炫酷的演示，转而关注这些机器人能为我们做些什么。

So I feel like we are on that trend towards abstracting away the plastic and the metal and the cool demos and focusing on what these robots are going to do for us.

我觉得这正是我们前进的方向，也是让我非常兴奋的地方。

And I feel like that is a direction that we're headed towards and that's what makes me very excited.

我们来谈谈你刚才提到的机器人领域中的劳动力投入问题。

Let's go into what you were talking about a second ago with a with a labor input into robotics.

其实我不太确定这个话题会引向哪里，所以我觉得需要你来主导一下。

I'm actually not sure where this conversation leads, so I think I need you to actually take the reins here.

这部分对话有什么重要意义？

What is significant about this part of this conversation?

对，关于机器人如何影响劳动力，一直都有争论。

Yeah, so there's always this ongoing debate about the question of how robots affect labor.

人类劳动力、人类工作，我们会不会被自动化取代而失业？

There's Human labor, human jobs, are we gonna be automated out of a job?

你是说这个问题吗？

Like this question?

大家普遍有这种担忧，而且这种担忧是有道理的，也是合理的：如果你提高自动化程度，那么你就减少了劳动机会，自动化的对立面就是劳动，工作的敌人就是自动化。

There's this general concern, which is a warranted concern, it's justified that if you increase automation, then you are reducing opportunities for labor and enemy of labor, the enemy of work is automation.

如果你观察历史趋势，你会发现，那些受益于更多自动化、采用更多自动化的经济体，往往失业率也更低。

And if you observe historical trends, you'll see that economies who benefit from more automation, who adopt more automation tend to also benefit from less unemployment.

而那些不自动化的经济体，反而失业率更高。

And economies who do not automate tend to suffer from more unemployment.

所以这就是总体趋势。

So that's been the general trend.

所以我想说，这里劳动和工作的敌人，同时也是自动化的敌人，其实是廉价劳动力。

And so I would say that the enemy here of both labor and jobs, as well as automation is cheap labor.

所以廉价劳动力才是共同的威胁，或者说共同的敌人。

So cheap labor here is the common threat or the common, let's say enemy here.

当你在其他地方有廉价劳动力时，你市场上的工作机会或就业就会受到威胁。

When you have cheap labor somewhere else, then you are now threatening the jobs or the employment in your market.

同理，当有廉价劳动力可用时，你就提高了自动化需要跨越的门槛，才能让它得以普及。

And by the same token, when you have cheap labor available, then you're increasing the hurdle rates that automation needs to cross in order to be able to proliferate.

我的观察是，当你自动化时，确实可能会取代一些工作，但你也会不成比例地创造更高质量的工作，这些工作流动性更低，员工满意度更高。

And the observation that I've had is that when you automate, yes, you may be displacing jobs, but you are disproportionately creating higher quality jobs where you have less churn, where you have greater worker satisfaction.

我们投资了一家叫Formic的公司，他们提供机器人即服务。

We're investors in a company called Formic and what they're doing is offering robots as a service.

他们卖的不是实体机器，而是机器的产出。

What they sell is not a physical machine, what they sell is the output of a machine.

他们把机器抽象化，让你作为工厂或仓库的老板或运营者，自动化就像雇人一样容易。

They abstract away the machine and they make it as easy for you as the owner or operator of a factory or warehouse to automate as it is for you to hire labor.

这些客户部署自动化，并不是因为他们想裁员或省钱。

And these customers are not deploying automation because they want to reduce their headcount or save money.

他们这么做是因为找不到工人。

They're trying to do this because they can't find workers.

这些工作的流动率非常高。

And these are jobs that have extremely high churn rates.

他们实际经历的是创造了越来越多更高质量的岗位，这些岗位不再有之前采用自动化之前那种员工不满和高流失率的问题。

And what they've actually experienced is creating more and more jobs that are higher quality, that do not suffer from the worker dissatisfaction and the churn that they experienced prior to adopting automation.

再说一遍，这一切的敌人不是工作岗位，也不是机器人。

And again, the enemy of all of this is not the enemy of jobs and automation again, is not the robots.

而是廉价劳动力，你明白吗？

It is the cheap labor, if that makes sense.

对，对，我觉得我明白。

Yeah, yeah I think it does.

我觉得这正好引到我接下来想聊的话题，就是成功的自动化产业对经济的影响。

And I think that takes us to where I wanna go next which is just the impact on the economy of a successful automation industry.

你刚才稍微提到了一点，我们现在有了更多高质量的岗位。

I think you talked about it just a little bit now we get more higher quality jobs.

是的。

Yes.

短期内可能会有一些岗位的转移，从A岗位转到B岗位。

There may be some short term dislocation of jobs, jobs from a to b.

也许某些行业短期内会有经济上的阵痛，但从长远来看，趋势是朝着更多高薪工作发展的。

Perhaps there is short term economic pain in some industries, but in the long in the long term and the the trends point towards more higher paying jobs.

那其他经济领域呢？

What about just like the rest of the economy?

比如商品成本、食品成本，还有建立一个实体、非软件、非SaaS的初创公司的成本。

The cost of goods, the cost of food, the cost of like building a a physical like non software, non SaaS based startup.

假设自动化行业在未来十年实现了它所有的目标。

Say say the automation industry does everything that it hopes to do in the next decade.

那对普通消费者的生活，比如物价，以及整个经济会有什么影响呢？

What would that mean for just the average consumer's life in terms of prices and just what you what the impact on the economy would be?

我给你一个大概的回答：更多的选择、更多的竞争，最终对消费者是有利的。

I mean, I'll give you the broad answer and that would be more selection, more competition, and ultimately a benefit to consumers.

比如我们公司Formake销售自动化设备的工厂，它们生产率更高，工人工资更高，单位经济效益更好，最终能以更优惠的价格销售更好的产品。

So a factory, so factories, for example, that our company Formake is selling automation into, they have more productivity, their workers get paid more, they generate from better unit economics, and they ultimately are able to sell better products at better prices.

这种好处会层层传递到最终消费者那里。

And the benefit trickles down to the end customer.

所以我的期望和信念是，如果你能让自动化变得足够简单、足够可靠，那么从向这些自动化客户销售产品的人，到从他们那里购买产品的人，最终都会受益。

So it's my expectation, my belief that if you're able to make automation simple enough to adopt and make it reliable enough, then everybody from the people that sell products to these automation customers, to the people that purchase the products from them will ultimately benefit.

而且我觉得关键点在于教育我们的劳动力。

And I think the key point here is educating our workforce.

如果我们确保劳动力接受教育，并且有机会提升技能，那么他们就能很好地适应未来更多高薪、更高质量的工作。

If we make sure that our workforce is educated and has the opportunity to grow their skillset, then they will be very well positioned for this future of more higher paying and higher quality jobs.

所以我认为，作为社会，我们必须承担起责任，确保我们的劳动力为自动化带来的新一代工作做好准备，而不是把它看作‘哦不，工作正在消失，我们该怎么办？’

And so I think that's something that we as a society have to take upon ourselves to keep our workforce, to make sure our workforce is prepared for this new generation of work that's going to come about as a result of automation, as opposed to looking at it as, oh no, jobs are being eliminated, so what do we do with our workforce?

我们应该更主动地应对这个问题。

We should be more proactive about it.

有没有哪个行业，你觉得在自动化潜力方面特别让你兴奋？

Is there a particular industry that you get really excited about when it comes to the potential of said industry with automation?

比如农业，可以想象会扩大规模，但我相信还有不少行业可以讨论。

Like agriculture, could imagine gets scaled, but I'm sure there's a handful of industries that is possible to talk about.

有没有哪个行业让你觉得特别激动人心？

Does one stick out to you as particularly exciting?

对，我是说，从历史上看，农业是最早实现自动化的行业之一。

Yeah, I mean, if you look at agriculture historically, agriculture is one of the first industries to be automated.

正因为如此，我们才从食物短缺变成了食物极其丰富。

And as a result of that, we went from food shortages to food being completely abundant as a result.

再看看汽车、消费电子这些行业，它们都是高度自动化的。

You look at industries like automotive, consumer electronics, these are industries that are highly automated.

所以我们现在有非常安全、非常高效的汽车。

And as a result, we have cars that are extremely safe, extremely efficient.

我们很多人要么像我一样，一辆车能开十年，可靠又耐用，要么可以去买最新最好的车，而且车越新，价格越便宜，功能越强，也越安全、越高效。

And many of us have the benefit of either keeping our cars for ten years like myself, that are reliable and run for a long time, or we can go out and buy the latest and greatest car and the newer the cars get, the cheaper they get and the more capable they get and the more safe and efficient they get.

这些都是自动化带给我们的好处。

So these are all benefits that come to us.

大卫，回到你之前问的关于兴奋点的问题，我觉得现在的潮流是家用机器人。

I feel like the zeitgeist today, David, going back to your earlier question about excitement, is around robots in domestic settings.

我们在说陪伴机器人、管家机器人，还有家庭环境中的机器人。

We're talking about companion robots, we're talking about Butler robots, robots and household settings.

对于这类应用，我其实有点谨慎，原因有两个。

I am a little cautious about those kinds of use cases for two reasons.

第一，我觉得在工厂和仓库环境中，自动化仍然有巨大的机会。

One, because I feel like there's still a huge opportunity for automation in factory and warehousing settings.

那里有很多工作要做。

There is plenty of work to do there.

在这些环境中，自动化的机会也很多。

There's plenty of opportunities to automate in those settings.

虽然可能不像陪伴机器人或管家机器人那么吸引人，但我认为这些应用仍然非常真实。

And I feel like it may not be as sexy as a companion robot or a made robot, but I feel like those applications are still very, very real.

我们看到自动驾驶汽车正在普及。

We're seeing the proliferation of autonomous cars.

它们就是机器人的绝佳例子。

I mean, they are a fantastic example of a robot.

那里还有很大的发展空间。

There's a lot more room there.

我们还没做到，之前承诺的大型卡车和货车要实现自动化。

We still haven't, we were promised the big rigs and the trucks to become automated.

它们还没有完全自动化。

They still haven't become fully automated.

所以希望在不久的将来，能看到更多的自动驾驶汽车和自动驾驶卡车。

So we'll see hopefully in near future, more autonomous vehicles, autonomous trucks.

我觉得人形机器人的未来在于应对家庭环境中的挑战，比如收拾孩子留下的烂摊子、帮助老人、做像清空洗碗机这样的基本家务。

And I feel like the future of humanoid robot tackling the challenges in a domestic setting, cleaning up after a child, helping an elderly person, doing basic tasks like emptying the dishwasher.

我觉得这些会实现，但感觉那还需要更长时间，而我更期待那些更近期的机会，更多是在工业和商业领域。

I think we'll see that come, but I feel like that is further out and I'm more excited about these nearer term opportunities and more, I would say industrial and commercial settings.

因为那些机会能以非常高效的方式惠及整个社会。

Because those are the opportunities that scale to all of society in a very efficient way.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，让一个人形机器人进入每个人的家庭。

I mean, it's getting a a humanoid robot into everyone's home.

这就像是一个巨大的最后一公里问题。

That's like a huge last mile problem.

机器人的实际设计存在很大的限制。

There's huge constraints with the actual design of the robot.

但我觉得，我认为你之所以兴奋的一个原因是，有几个地方可以部署机器人和自动化，这些地方对整个社会有巨大的好处。

But I feel I think one of the reasons why I think you're excited is that there are a few places where you can put robots and automation into that have just massive benefits for society as a whole.

没错。

That's right.

所以，我认为效果的可扩展性，是让你对自动化方面感到兴奋的原因之一。

And so it's a little bit of the scalability of the effect, I think, is something that gets you excited about the automation side.

我不想说更容易，因为所有这些问题都很有挑战性，但我觉得在工业和商业环境中，问题更加受限，而且价值主张或经济效益比机器人进入家庭环境更明确。

I don't wanna say easier because all these problems are challenging, but I feel like the problems are more constrained in these industrial and commercial settings and the value proposition or the economics that are more well defined than robots going into a domestic setting.

比如，你买一件家具，我可能每天下午都在沙发上打盹，而你也许几个月都不会坐那个沙发，这取决于我们怎么看待沙发。

When you buy, for example, a piece of furniture, I may sleep on my couch every afternoon and take a nap, you may not even sit on that couch for months, depending on like how we look at couches.

因此，考虑到消费者从这类非必需消费中获得的效用差异很大，我认为在家庭环境中引入这样的技术会很有挑战性。

And so given the widely varying utility that consumers get from like these kinds of discretionary purchases, I think it would be challenging to introduce a piece of technology like that into the domestic setting.

我觉得不能说完全不可能。

I think I wouldn't say that it's impossible.

我只是说，这需要的时间会比很多人想的要长。

I'm just saying that it'll take longer than a lot of people think.

而且，你知道吗，我是个超级机器人迷。

And listen, like I'm a huge robotics nerd.

我以前是《星际迷航》的忠实粉丝。

I was a big Star Trek fan.

我希望有一天能像《下一代》里的数据指挥官那样，和机器人互动。

I wish to be able to interact with a robot, like Commander Data from series, from next generation.

但我也很期待那一天的到来，只是觉得那比很多人期望的要远一些。

But like, I'm excited for that day, but I just feel like it's a little further out than what a lot of people hope.

现在正在努力解决的难题是什么？

What are the constraints that are trying to be solved right now?

你们在Lux投资的那些机器人和自动化公司，有没有一个共同要解决的问题？或者说，现在自动化和机器人普及过程中面临的主要挑战是什么？

Of the of the robotics automation companies that you guys have invested in at at Lux, is there a common denominator of problems trying to be tackled, or or what are the modern problems in the proliferation of automation and robotics?

这真的归结为应用的广度、可靠性，以及能否向客户展示单位经济性。

It really comes down to the breadth of applications, the reliability, and being able to demonstrate the unit economics to customers.

因为你说的是一种相对新兴的产品，比如客户购买传送带、包裹分拣机或餐厅用的烤箱时，这些都有非常明确的经济效益。

Because you're talking about a relatively nascent product, like when a customer buys, for example, a conveyor belt or a package sorting machine or a oven for their restaurants, there's very clear economics attached to that.

如果你开咖啡店，花5000美元买一台咖啡研磨机，这笔投资的回报是非常清楚的。

When you buy, if you have a coffee shop and you buy a coffee grinding machine for $5,000 or whatever it is, it's very clear as to what the return on that investment is.

但当你谈论一种新产品、新技术，只有10个客户用过，要证明投资回报就难多了。

When you're talking about a new product, a new technology with a sample set of 10 customers who've used this before, it's much more challenging to be able to justify that return on investment.

所以我认为，能够展示价值，为客户创造机会去合理评估，这是很多这类公司，这波新的自动化公司现在面临的挑战，可能比技术本身更关键，就是能否量化他们为客户带来的增值。

So I think being able to demonstrate value, being able to create an opportunity for a customer to be able to properly underwrite is the challenge that a lot of these companies, this new wave of automation companies are facing right now, perhaps more so than just technology, is being able to quantify the value add for their customers.

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Bankless Nation, we've built something for you.

隆重推出Bankless MCP。

Introducing the Bankless MCP.

Chad、GPT和Claude在很多事情上都很擅长，但如果你问他们关于协议机制、代币经济，或者上周加密圈发生了什么，这些超出基础知识的问题，他们的短板就会显现出来。

Chad, GPT and Claude are great at a lot of things, but ask them anything beyond the basics of crypto about protocol mechanics, tokenomics, or just what happened last week in crypto, and the gaps will start to show.