加密货币已准备好迎接链上期权 | Derive 首席执行官 Nick Forster

这里是Banklist Nation。

Banklist Nation.

今天和我一起的是Nick Forster。

I am here with Nick Forster.

他是Derive的联合创始人兼CEO。

He's the cofounder and CEO of Derive.

Derive是以太坊上最大的链上期权交易所。

Derive is the largest on chain options exchange on Ethereum.

Nick，欢迎来到节目。

Nick, welcome to the show.

嘿，David。

Hey, David.

谢谢邀请我来。

Thanks for having me on.

Nick，我想先问一些关于加密货币和期权的基础问题。

Nick, I wanna kinda get to just some very basic questions about crypto and options.

主要是，期权在加密货币领域还没有像永续合约那样真正发展起来，或者说，如果从传统金融对期权的热爱来推断的话，期权在加密货币中的受欢迎程度远没有达到那个水平。

Mainly, options really haven't come online in the crypto sense in ways that the perpetual has or in ways that if we extrapolated to from how much TradFi loves options, they don't the options in crypto don't really meet that level of popularity in the in the crypto industry.

我想知道这是为什么。

And I I wanna know why.

比如说，为什么期权在加密货币中没有像我们预期的那样发展壮大？

Like, why haven't options grown as large in crypto as we would have otherwise expected?

这是个好问题。

It's a great question.

我觉得在某种程度上，这是所有金融市场自然演化的结果。

I think to some extent, it's the natural evolution of all financial markets.

期权总是最后一个成熟的领域。

Options are always the last vertical to mature.

你需要一些大型、行动较慢的机构玩家来锚定市场，他们真正想通过资产赚取收益，无论是股票市场中的股票，还是加密货币中的比特币和以太坊，或者你需要结构性对冲。

You kinda need to anchor the market like some of these bigger, slower moving institutional players, really trying to earn yield on their assets, whether it's equities in the equity market, or in crypto, like on Bitcoin and ETH, or you need structural hedges.

比如，航空公司对冲燃油成本，或者农民在收获前对冲作物价格。

So things like, you know, airlines head hedging their jet fuel costs or, you know, farmers hedging the the sort of price of their crop before harvest.

这些大规模、重复性的资金流，在新行业、新资产类别中，确实需要时间才能出现。

Like, those are the big repeat flows that just take a while to emerge in a new industry, a new asset class.

在加密货币中，投机占主导地位，而期权很适合投机。

And for options, you know, in crypto, speculation is dominated, and options are good for speculation.

但要真正满足这种需求，首先需要那些市场参与者卖出期权，形成一个有竞争力的双向市场。

But to really serve that use case, they need those guys, you know, in the market selling options, creating a competitive two way marketplace first.

这确实花了很长时间才实现，但现在真的开始加速了。

Mean, I it's just taken a long time for that to happen, but now it really is starting to accelerate.

期权做得好的地方，也是人们常批评的一点，就是期权种类太多了。

And what options do really well, and it's a criticism people give them often is, like, there are just so many of them.

有太多的选择，不同的行权价和到期日，而这正是关键所在。

There's so many choices and different strikes and expiries, and it's, like, kind of the point.

这也是预测市场开始兴起的原因。

It's the same reason prediction markets are beginning to take off.

它们让你拥有这种控制力和精细度，能够表达对市场的各种不同看法。

They give you this level of control and granularity and ability to express lots of different opinions about the market.

而且通常你能以更精确、更明确的方式做到这一点时，你的交易观点正确时就能赚更多的钱。

And when typically you can do that in a more precise and defined way, you can make more money on your trading opinion when you're correct.

所以，我预计期权会继续发展。

So, I expect options to continue.

它们已经开始在加密货币市场中占据相当大的份额。

They've started to really grow as a market share in crypto.

我预计未来几年会真正加速增长。

I expect that to really, you know, kick on over the next couple of years.

所以你的答案是，确实需要相当多样化的市场参与者，期权市场才能增长。

So the your answer is that really there needs to be a pretty rich diversity of market participants in order for the options markets to grow.

而这可能与永续合约这种工具形成对比，因为永续合约实际上只需要两类市场参与者。

And maybe that stands in contrast to the perpetual as an instrument where really you just need two market participants.

你需要有人提供流动性，需要有人借钱给做多或做空的人，然后还需要有人做多或做空。

You mean people to LP, you need people to lend to the people going long or short, and then you need people going long or short.

而简单性可能就是让永续合约增长如此之快的原因。

And the simplicity is maybe what allowed the perpetual to grow so fast.

而期权这边呢，就需要更多不同类型的参与者，各司其职，才能形成那种双向需求匹配，而且得有很多这样的人，期权市场才能真正发展起来。

Options on the other hand has a wider variety of need of different participants doing different things to create the double coincidence of wants and a lot of them in order for the options market to really, manifest.

我说得对吗？

Is that is that correct?

你说得真的非常到位。

That's, that's really, really well said.

而且我觉得到目前为止，在加密货币领域，如果你想想市场上那些热门或可用的资产，你知道，最近有一波代币化的股票和大宗商品，把一些大型的有用资产带上了链。

And I think to date in crypto, again, if you think about the assets that have been popular or available in the market, you know, we've got this new recent wave of tokenized equities and commodities that's bringing, like, big useful assets on chain.

但到目前为止，我们只有比特币、以太坊，可能还有几个其他币，但很多做永续合约交易的币，那些模因币之类的，它们只火了两三周，然后大家就转向下一个了。

But to date, we've had Bitcoin, Ethereum, maybe a couple other coins, but a lot of the coins that have done perp trading, those, you know, meme coins or whatever it is, they last for two or three weeks, before people move on to the next thing.

这么短的时间，根本不够让那个市场和那种需求匹配发展起来。

And this is not enough time for that market and that coincidence of wants to develop.

但现在，就像我说的，越来越多高质量的加密代币正在涌现，它们有更长期的、更成熟的持有者群体。

But now, as I said, you've got this, you know, more and more high quality crypto tokens that are emerging, with longer term, more sophisticated holder bases.

比如HYPE，就是最近的一个例子，过去一年它的期权市场就因此有了突破性的发展。

Like, HYPE is kind of the most recent one that's had a breakout options market over the last year for that reason.

而且呢，你还有所有这些优质资产，像真实世界资产、股票、大宗商品，都在链上发行、可用、代币化了。

And then also you have, you know, all of these quality assets, RWAs, equities, commodities being issued and available and tokenized on chain.

我觉得这两个趋势，真的非常非常有利于期权市场的出现，以及这些需求的双重巧合，在各个层面上。

And I think those two trends, are really, really good for, the emergence of options markets and those coincidences of wants, across the board.

好的。

Okay.

所以你的主要答案，你第一个回答，关于为什么期权还没上链，就是市场结构的问题。

So your your primary answer, your first answer as to why options haven't come on chain yet is just a market structure one.

期权的市场结构很复杂。

The market structure for options is complex.

它需要很丰富。

It needs to be rich.

它需要流动性。

It needs to be liquid.

这些要素需要时间才能凑齐。

It takes time for these pieces to come together.

那技术上的限制呢？

What about technical constraints?

从技术角度来说，到目前为止是什么阻碍了期权上链？

Technically speaking, what has inhibited options from coming on chain up to this point?

有几方面。

Couple things.

首先，我们做这个已经五年了。

So one, we've been doing this for five years now.

我们最早是在2021年，在二层网络上用AMM架构起步的。

We started with, like, an AMM architecture back in 2021, on an l two.

从那时起，我们一直处于扩展和区块链技术的前沿。

We've been kind of at the forefront, I think, of scaling and and sort of blockchain technology since that time.

现在我们转向了我们认为正确的结构，包括链下订单簿和集成的RFQ，用于价格匹配和价格发现，支持各种不同的工具，低延迟，用Rust编写，性能非常高。

Now we've kind of come to this model, which we think is the right structure, which involves, you know, like an off chain order book and integrated RFQ, for price matching and price discovery and all of these different instruments and low latency and written in Rust and and very high performance.

但链上组件，也就是关键部分，比如自我托管、投资组合保证金、清算和结算，都发生在智能合约中。

But the Onchain components, the critical pieces, self custodial, portfolio margin, clearing, and settlement is all happening in smart contracts.

现在系统已经足够好了，能够支持所有这些，达到很多交易者期望的机构级别，我们现在纯粹靠实力和中心化交易所竞争。

And now the systems are good enough, to support all of that at, like, the level of like, the institutional level that is kind of expected by a lot of traders, and we're now competing with, you know, centralized exchanges just on merit alone.

技术方面终于够用了。

The tech is finally good enough, on that front.

我觉得另一方面，就是需要时间来真正搭建整个技术栈。

And I think on the other front, it just takes time to, like, really build out all of the stack.

建立流动性是一个非常难解决的问题。

It's like a very difficult problem to solve, to build liquidity.

我想最后还有一个原因，就是为什么期权一直不太成功，是因为市场上长期流动性最好的平台是Derive it，他们做得非常好。

And I I do think I guess one final reason for why options haven't been that successful is, again, like, most liquid venue in in the market for a long time was Derive it, and they've done a great job.

他们成功建立了一个很好的业务，但一直没有真正改进用户界面，也没有去吸引更广泛的用户群体，除了大型机构OTC柜台。

They did a great job of building a great business, but, like, never really managed to, you know, switch up their user interface or really go after, like, a a broader audience other than, like, the big institutional OTC desk.

我觉得我们现在正处于一个临界点，第一次有了足够的流动性，可以开始向更广泛的用户推广期权了。

And I think we're now on the cusp of you know, we are kind of liquid enough for the very first time to start making a push at, you know, a a more broader audience for options too.

是不是也有需求方面的讨论？

Is there an appetite conversation as well?

我知道我们之前聊过，需要更多对期权感兴趣的参与者上线，但问题是，加密货币市场里那些典型的投资者，他们是不是就是一直对期权没什么兴趣？

I I know we talked about like that we need more market participants who are interested in options to come online, obviously, but has just the appetite, the typical investor base in the crypto market, the crypto industry just have they just not been interested in options?

还是说，真的是因为缺少一个合适的平台，才让他们没法接触期权？

Or is it really just a lack of a venue that has prevented them from having options?

你觉得，到目前为止，比如今年，典型的加密货币市场参与者对期权的兴趣怎么样？

What can you say about the appetite of the typical crypto market participant up to, like, know, this year, for example?

去年十月十号发生了一个重大变化，就是那次“十十”暴跌。

There was a step change on October ten last year, the the ten ten crash.

在那之前，整个市场对期权的兴趣都很低。

So we had, like, very little interest across the board up until ten ten.

我觉得“十十”那次事件展示了几件事。

I think what ten ten did was showcase a couple of things.

第一，很明显的一点是，永续合约非常依赖路径，你可能做对了所有事情，保持德尔塔中性，管理好风险，但依然可能被一波向下插针给打爆。

One was that, like, it obviously the obvious point is that perps, are very path dependent, and you can do everything right and be delta neutral and manage your risk and yet still get blown out on on like a scam whip to the downside.

很多人因此亏了很多钱。

And a lot of people lost a lot of money doing that.

期权呢，你知道，在期权里你会以其他方式亏损。

Options, You know, you lose in other ways and options.

你下了一个赌注。

You put a bet on.

你买入一个期权。

You buy an option.

你必须把握好时机。

You you have to get the timing.

对吧？

Right?

否则，如果时机不对，你就会损失全部的权利金。

Otherwise, if you don't, you're gonna lose your whole premium.

但至少你算是锁定了那个赌注。

But at least you've kinda locked into that bet.

而永续合约呢，即使你各方面判断都很正确，如果用了杠杆，还是可能因为一次糟糕的行情而被清算。

Whereas with perps, you can be very right on everything and still have, like, a a bad print on where it can get liquidated if you're using leverage.

大家是在10月10号发现这一点的，然后就开始寻找其他形式的杠杆。

And and people found that out on 10/10 and started looking for other forms of leverage.

也就是从那时起，他们开始从投机角度思考问题，对吧。

And that's when they started to think on the speculation side of things, okay.

我们会考虑交易期权，并利用它们来实现这个目的。

We're gonna look to maybe trade options, and use them for that.

我觉得从另一个角度看，期权其实有三种用途。

I think on the other side, there's this whole, like really, you use options for three things.

投机显然是其中之一。

Speculation is clearly one of them.

对冲也是一种，因为你可以像买保险一样，买入下行保护。

Hedging is one of them because you can sort of buy insurance and buy downside.

还有就是收益生成，你可以卖出你资产上的期权，从任何资产中提取收益，不仅仅是USDC，还有股票等等，通过卖出波动率并表达你的观点来实现。

And then yield generation, you can sell options on your asset and ring yield out of any asset, not just USDC, but stocks and whatever by selling the volatility and expressing that view.

我觉得10月10号发生的另一件事，就是加密货币中两大收益来源的丧钟敲响了。

I think the the other thing that happened on 10/10 was it was the death knell for two big sources of yield in crypto.

第一个就是基差交易。

The first was the basis trade.

其实它本来就在走下坡路了，但这次真的是彻底把它干掉了，行业里的杠杆被清空，那些利率也被重新调整了。

Like, it was already on the decline, and this, like, truly killed it where the leverage in the industry got wiped and those rates got reset.

而且有很多对冲基金、家族办公室、流动性基金，他们整个四年的发展轨迹和业绩记录都是靠赚那10%到15%的Delta中性收益建立起来的，结果在10月10号那天全毁了。

And there were a lot of, like, hedge funds, family offices, liquid funds that have built their entire, like, four year trajectory and, like, track record on earning, you know, 10 to 15% delta neutral, and that went up in in flames on 10/10.

第二个影响是，它压垮了市场上大量代币的估值。

And the second was it crushed a ton of token valuations across the space.

而且有很多团队在玩这种游戏：在代币发行前先卖代币，把TVL拉进自己的协议里，假装自己很有吸引力。

And there were a lot of teams kind of playing this game where you would sell tokens pre TGE, and get TVL, into your protocol and make it look like you had traction.

然后他们可以跟投资者承诺用自己原生代币提供某种收益，再通过OTC市场或者Pendle的盘前积分之类的工具来对冲风险。

And you could sort of promise investors some sort of a yield, in your own native token on that and hedge it out with OTC Markets or some of the Pendle pre market point stuff.

不是说Pendle跟这事有什么关系。

Not that Pendle had anything to do with it.

只是大家刚好把它当作一个清算的场所而已。

It was just like a function of people were using that as the venue to clear.

所以那部分也被抹掉了，因为所有估值都被压垮了。

And so that got wiped out too because all the valuations got crushed.

所以到那时，期权市场开始出现一个非常好的转折点，投机者开始关注它。

So at that point, you have this, like, you know, kind of really nice beginning of, like, an inflection point for options where the speculators started looking into it.

另外，在收益生成方面，它几乎是加密货币中唯一能赚取收益的地方，而且过去一年在机构规模上确实一直如此。

And, also, on the yield generation side, it was kind of the only place you could earn yield, in crypto, and it kinda has been sustainably really for the last year at institutional scale.

这些趋势成了市场的顺风，也成了转折点。

And those trends have been a tailwind and a turning point in the market.

这太有意思了。

That's fascinating.

我没想到10/10竟然成了期权的顺风。

I did was not ready for the idea that 10/10 was a a tailwind for options.

我们能深入聊聊为什么是这样吗？

Can we go into why that's true?

期权能缓冲永续合约市场结构中的哪些问题？

What about the market structure of a perpetual does an option buffer against?

那期权相对于永续合约的优势是什么呢？

Like, what are its what are what are options strengths against the perpetual?

而且为什么10月10日那么能说明期权的优势和永续合约的风险呢？

And why was ten ten ten so illustrative about the strength of an option and the risk of a perpetual?

我给你举个例子。

I'll give you an example.

永续合约确实很好。

And, like, perps are great.

它们可以用来做很多事情。

Like, you can use them for lots of things.

但它们并不是万能的。

They're just not the solution to everything.

我觉得到目前为止，很多人在加密货币领域的看法就是，你有永续合约就够了。

And I think that's been a lot of people's, opinion in crypto to date is that you have perps.

为什么还需要别的呢？我给你举个例子，昨天Derive上有一笔交易，一个用户买了2027年3月到期的以太坊期权。

Why do I need anything I'll give you an example from a trade that went up on Derive yesterday, and it was a user buying the Ethereum March 2027 expiring.

所以从录制时间算起，大概还有六个月。

So we got about six months from time of recording.

他们买的是5000的看涨期权，卖的是7000的看涨期权。

It was the they were buying the 5,000 calls and selling the 7,000 calls.

所以这是一个5000到7000的看涨价差，三月份到期。

So that's a 5,000, 7,000 call spread expiring in March.

他投入了30万美元的期权费。

He has put down $300,000 worth of premiums.

如果以太坊到三月份涨到7000，这个看涨价差能赚大约2000万美元，你可以把它看作，相对于最初的30万本金，大约是66倍的回报，而以太坊当时大概在2500左右。

If ETH goes to 7 k by March, that call spread will pay out about $20,000,000, which is about, like you know, you could look at it as, a 66 x payout on the original, the, you know, $300 in in capital, with ETH at, like, 2,500.

如果你想在永续合约上获得66倍杠杆，我们用1000美元来举例，因为这样算起来更容易，但和30万是同样的道理，只是规模不同。

Now if you were to try and, like, get 66 x leverage on a perp, let's use a thousand dollars as the example because it's easier to work with the 300,000, but it's the same thing scaled up.

你拿1000美元，用66倍杠杆。

You do, like, a thousand dollars at 66 x leverage.

在10%的资金费率下，你就能开一个66000美元的以太坊仓位。

At 10% funding, you get a 66,000 position on ETH.

如果现货价格从当前点位下跌1.5%，就像我们录节目之前那十分钟可能刚看到的那样，你会立刻被强制平仓。

If there's a negative 1.5% drawdown from the current spot, which we might have just seen in the last ten minutes before recording this, you getting instantly liquidated.

而且这是在66倍杠杆下，你知道，这挺疯狂的，风险也很大。

And that's at 66 x leverage, which is, like, you know, kind of reckless and big.

另外还有双重打击，资金费率通常也在10%左右。

You also have the the double beat of the funding rate is, you know, typically around 10% for these things.

一年下来，在66,000美元上，资金费用就是6,600美元，这相当于你投入保证金的六倍。

After a year on $66,000, that's, you know, $6,600 in funding, which is six times as much margin as you're putting down.

用永续合约，你根本没法以任何方式表达这种观点。

You just can't express that view in any way, shape, or form using the perps.

所以，我们开始看到用户用期权而不是永续合约来表达那些高杠杆的投机性押注。

And so, like, we're starting to find users beginning to express those, like, leverage speculative bets, using options versus perps.

我觉得还有一点要注意，在2020年10月10日，人们并没有用66倍杠杆。

And I think the other thing to note is on ten ten, right, like, people weren't doing 66 x leverage.

他们用的是1.5倍或1.25倍的杠杆。

They were doing, you know, 1.5 x leverage, or 1.25 x leverage.

而且在某个交易所，你可能会遇到那种巨大的价格偏离，就像是一触即发式的爆仓。

And you can get those big dislocations on a given exchange where it's like a one touch on the liquidation.

这不是什么TWOP。

It's not some TWOP.

这取决于你的路径。

It's it's you can you know, you're path dependent.

如果交易所的基础设施或流动性不稳定，即使你持有一个山寨币的多头和另一个的空头，或者做多比特币做空其他币，你也可能被自动减仓。

And if the exchange infrastructure or the liquidity is shaky, you can get ADL'd even if you have maybe you have a long on one alt and a short on another or a long Bitcoin shorty.

你有相关性对冲。

You have, you know, correlation hedge.

那也没用。

Doesn't matter.

你照样会被清仓。

You're getting wiped out nonetheless.

我觉得很多人就是发现了这一点。

And and I think that's what a lot of people found out.

所以，显然，我刚才举的例子比较极端。

So, obviously, the example I gave was extreme.

你确实没法用永续合约复制那种收益，但这种情况也会影响到期限更短、杠杆更低的交易。

You can't really replicate that payoff with perps, but that scales into, you know, the shorter dated lower leverage stuff too.

你觉得这样说准确吗：永续合约作为工具，更适合长尾资产在短期时间框架内的交易，而期权更适合肥尾资产在长期时间框架内的交易。

Would you say that it's accurate that a perpetual as an instrument is better for longer tail assets on shorter term time frames, and options are better for fatter tail assets on longer term timeframes.

而且我从那个故事里真正学到的是，用永续合约做多杠杆，除了资产价格本身，还会面临很多其他风险，比如平台风险、传染风险。

And like what I'm really getting out of that story is that, you know, going leverage long on a perpetual exposes you to a number of risks beyond just the price of the asset, you know, platform risk, contagion risk.

你提到了路径依赖风险，而期权可以持有极端期权，比如风险极高的期权，但我在达到那个价格之前不会被清算。

You said path dependency risk, where with an option, can have an extreme option, something very, very high out on the risk, But I won't be liquidated on my way there.

我只有在到期日才会被清算，这是设计好的。

I will only be liquidated at the date of expiry, which is by design.

但永续合约不是这样。

And that's not true with a perpetual.

永续合约的话，即使你方向判断正确，也可能在达到目标之前就被清算。

A perpetual you could be directionally correct, but still get liquidated on the way there.

所以直白地说，永续合约更适合长尾资产和较短的时间框架，而期权更适合肥尾资产和较长的时间框架。

And so just bluntly, perpetuals are better for longer tail assets in shorter term time frames, and options are better for fatter tail assets on longer term time frames.

你觉得这样总结公平吗？

Would you say that that's a fair summary?

我觉得甚至可以说，短期交易用期权也能做得更好。

I mean, I would all even argue that you can still speculate better on the short term with options too.

再说，期权更精准。

Again, they're more precise.

它们对路径的依赖也更小。

They're still less path dependent.

而且你能用它们获得更高的杠杆。

You can get a lot more leverage out of them.

很多人没意识到这一点。

People don't quite realize that.

它们确实稍微复杂一些。

They are a little more complicated.

我不是在这里建议大家这么做。

And my I'm I'm not here advocating people do that.

就是说，你得有自己的观点，我觉得你应该多咨询一下，看看哪种方式最适合表达你的想法。

Like, you need to have an opinion, and I think you should just consult and see whether, like, what what is the best way to express it.

关于期权，要非常明确的一点是，你必须在规定的时间范围内判断正确。

And the trade off to be very explicit around options is you have to be right within the time frame.

在我的例子中，永续合约的看涨情况是，如果以太坊的价格六个月不动，你在永续合约里能拿回你的钱，只是要扣除资金费用。

The bull case for perps in my example is if the price of Ethereum never moves for six months, you get your money back in the perp case minus the funding.

而期权的情况是，如果价格没有超过5000，你就会亏掉这笔钱。

Whereas in options case, you're you're losing it if it doesn't go beyond 5 k.

就算涨到4500，到期时还是会归零。

You get to 4,500 beats, and you still would expire at zero.

所以，你知道，这里有权衡，但关键在于你下的赌注，以及确保你以最好的方式表达你的观点。

So, you know, there are, like, trade offs here, but it's about, like, the bet that you make and and kind of making sure that you know that you're expressing in the best way possible.

所以期权和永续合约经常被拿来直接比较。

So options and perps are just so frequently placed to head to head with each other.

比如，做多永续合约的人会告诉你，期权已经过时了。

Like, perp bulls will tell you that, like, options are obsolete.

你知道，永续合约才是酷炫的新事物。

You know, perps are the cool new thing.

就像期权是给老古董用的。

Just like options are for boomers.

他们就像，传统……我们发现了这个叫永续合约的新东西，它会取代一切。

They're for trad Like, we found this cool new thing called the perp, it's going to replace everything.

而且，从方向上看，这两种工具都能让你用少量资金获得超额回报，前提是你判断正确。

And, like, directionally, both of these instruments allow you to take a small amount of capital and get an outsized amount of return if if you are correct.

所以从方向上看，它们的形态是相似的。

So directionally, the the form factor is, like, congruous.

说期权和永续合约是对立的，公平吗？

Is it fair to say options verse perps?

它们真的对立吗？还是说，它们只是两种不同的工具，实际上并不冲突。

Is it really verse like, how much verse is it versus it just being just these are two different instruments that actually don't conflict with each other.

你对这个有什么看法？

Do you have an opinion on this?

这就是关键所在。

That's the thing.

它们完全是互补的。

They're completely complementary.

我们在Derive上同时支持期权和永续合约，比如投资组合保证金和跨市场保证金。

And we support options and perps, like cross like, portfolio margin and cross margin on Derive.

就是说，不同场景下你都需要它们。

Like, you need them both in different spots.

永续合约很棒，就像我说的，是很好的工具。

And perps are great, as I said, great instruments.

任何时候你都不会听到我反对永续合约，但期权也是必需的。

You're not gonna hear me arguing against perps at any point in time, but you need options also.

因为我觉得永续合约更像是一种简单直接的粗放工具。

Because I would say perps are, yeah, like, more of a blunt instrument that's simple to use.

你有一个杠杆滑块。

You have a leverage slider.

它们适合价格发现和短期投机。

They're good for price discovery and short dated speculation.

期权更像是一把瑞士军刀。

Options are much more like a Swiss army knife.

我们最初创办Derive的原因就是，你可以通过不同的看涨和看跌期权组合，创造出任何可想象的收益结构，用于对冲、收益生成或投机。

The reason we started Derive in the first place was because, you can create any payoff structure imaginable for hedging, yield generation, or speculation out of a different combination of calls and puts.

所以你把它们放入一个可编程的资本环境中，你就有点像，这在我看来是链上经济的完美形态，因为它们如此可塑、灵活且可编程。

And so you put them into a programmable environment for capital, and you you've kind of got, like it's like the perfect form factor for, you know, like, the Onchain economy, in my opinion, because they're so malleable and flexible, and programmable.

这就是我们五年前开始时的论点。

And that was the thesis we started with five years ago.

这也是我们今天仍然相信的论点。

It's the thesis we still believe today.

但我确实认为这是永续合约无法复制的，而且我认为它们是相辅相成的。

But I do think that's something perps can't replicate, and I think they go hand in hand.

永续合约适合快速价格发现、盘前交易，非常适合投机；期权则几乎涵盖其他所有场景，比如结构化产品、收益生成、精细对冲和投机。

Perps for, like, quick price discovery, premarket stuff, excellent for speculation, options for, you know, like the almost everything else, structured products, yield generation, fine tuned hedging and speculation.

我觉得这一切真正融合在一起，我们一直努力构建的愿景就是那个无限权力工厂。

And I think the whole thing really comes together, and the vision for what we've been trying to build is the infinite power factory.

你可以真正以可编程的方式，全天候在任何资产上构建任何交易。

You can really build any trade on any asset twenty four seven in a programmable way.

这就是我们一直在筹备的事情，而且我觉得我们终于开始接近实现那个愿景了。

And that's what we've been setting up for this whole time and finally starting getting close to to realizing that vision, I think.

你觉得这个对比怎么样？

How do you like this comparison?

在加密货币领域，AMM确实在链上击败了订单簿，成为第一代，甚至直到今天，流动性去中心化交易所的主流形态。

In crypto, the AMM really beat out the order book on chain as, like, the in the first and maybe even to this day, the iteration of just, like, liquidity and DEXs.

AMM确实与区块链的本质产生了共鸣。

Like, the AMM really found resonance with, like, the nature of a blockchain.

它非常适合长尾流动性。

It was really good for long tail liquidity.

它确实很适合把流动性集中在一个地方。

It was really good for centralizing liquidity in one single place.

而链上订单簿呢，就是有更多复杂的部分。

Whereas like the Onchain order book is just there's more moving parts.

启动流动性更难。

It's harder to bootstrap liquidity.

你需要一些更专业的参与者来做市。

You need some more sophisticated actors to do market making.

但像我这样的散户，没那么专业，你知道的，交易者，我不会去管理订单簿，我就是买进卖出，参与流动性。

But me as like a retail less sophisticated, you know, trader, I'm not doing order book management, I'm buying and selling into the liquidity.

这看起来就像是，订单簿更像期权平台，而永续合约更像AMM，更加被动、简单、容易参与。

And that kind of seems to be like an order book seems to be more like an options platform, whereas the perpetual seems to be more like the AMM, where it's so much more passive and simple and accessible.

也许这就是为什么它先在加密货币的背景下被启动起来。

And maybe that's why it just kind of got bootstrapped in the crypto context first.

你觉得这个比较怎么样，就是订单簿更像期权，而AMM更像永续合约？

How how do you, how do you like this comparison where, like, order books are more like options and AMMs are more like perpetuals?

说实话，我第一反应并不讨厌这个说法。

I don't hate that at first pass, actually.

我还有点喜欢。

I kinda like it.

我觉得确实是这样，永续合约很适合统一流动性。

I would say it it's definitely true that, you know, perps are one it's great to unify liquidity.

每个资产只有一个工具。

It's one instrument per asset.

做市肯定更容易，所以理论上更容易推出新的永续合约平台，也更容易获得流动性。

It is certainly easier to market make, and that's why it's easier to spin up, like, new perp decks in in theory and get liquid.

它们各有各的作用。

And they they both have their roles to play.

如果非要区分的话，作为早期AMM技术的开发者，我们当时做得还不错，但我觉得AMM在长期市场竞争力上确实有根本性的限制。

I do think if I had to sort of draw the distinction, I do think AMMs as someone who was building early AMM technology and, you know, we did we did okay with it, they do have a fundamental limit on, like, how good they can get in terms of, you know, competitiveness in the market in the long run.

我觉得这和永续合约不一样，永续合约会变得非常非常大。

And I do think that differs from perps, and the perps are just gonna be really, really big.

长期来看我非常看好永续合约，而且我觉得它不会只是单一发展，就像我说的，会是两者并存。

I am very bullish on perps in the long run, and I don't think it's it's it's going to be a you know, it's going as I said, it's gonna be both.

而我觉得，嗯……

Whereas I think Mhmm.

我不太了解AMM的最新情况，但我的直觉是，随着Uniswap v4的出现，它们在后台运作的方式，比如参与者如何与它们互动，会越来越像订单簿。

I I don't really know the latest on the AMMs, but my my gut feeling is with the Uniswap v four, they do kind of function behind the scenes in terms of, like, how participants engage with them, like, how they would similar to an order book.

如果你想长期赚钱，就必须非常积极地管理。

It has to be really actively managed if you wanna make money over the long run.

话虽如此，Uniswap对于那些最冷门的资产，在初期没有做市商愿意碰的时候，仍然是启动新池子、新资产、新流动性的绝佳工具，这一点我很喜欢。

Having said that, Uniswap, again, for the longest of tail assets where no market makers are gonna touch at the beginning, it's still great for spinning up, you know, new pools, new assets, new liquidity, which I love.

我交易加密货币快十年了，这些年用过各种各样的钱包、交易所、聚合器，还有不同的前端界面，我一直在寻找同样的东西。

I've been trading crypto for almost a decade, and I've used so many different wallets, exchanges, aggregators, different front ends over the years, and I'm always kind of looking for the same thing.

就是一个界面，能提供跨多条链和多种资产的深度流动性，让我可以进入所有市场，比如永续合约，赚取收益，保密交易，同时还能完全掌控自己的资金。

Just one interface with deep liquidity across a bunch of chains and assets where I can access all the markets like perps, earn yield, trade confidentially, and still control all my own funds.

但我从来没有真正找到过这样的体验，我总是换来换去钱包，忙着处理gas费，还被滑点吃掉不少利润。

And I've never really found this experience, and I'm always switching wallets, juggling gas fees, and just getting eaten by slippage.

Near.com 不是那样的。

Near.com is not that.

对我来说，感觉完全不一样。

It feels fundamentally different to me.

我可以在任何链上做我想做的一切，而且我的所有活动都是保密的。

I can do everything I want from any chain, and I keep all my activity confidential.

我甚至还能保密地赚取收益。

I can even earn yield confidentially.

这才是加密货币应该有的样子。

It's the way crypto should work.

Near.com 钱包由 NEAR 提供支持，已经通过后量子签名跨链转移了超过 250 亿美元，并且在主网上运行了五年多，零停机。

The near.com wallet powered by NEAR, and it's moved over $25,000,000,000 cross chain using post quantum signing and has run over five years on main net with zero downtime.

Near.com 就是最好的方式，让你在链上并掌控一切。

Near.com is simply the best way to be Onchain and be in control.

使用节目说明中的 bankless 链接，可以拿回你 20% 的交易费，这不是投资建议。

Get 20% of your trading fees back using the bankless link in the show notes, not investment advice.

Bankless的伙伴们，我们为你们打造了一些东西。

Bankless nation, we've built something for you.

隆重推出Bankless MCP。

Introducing the bankless MCP.

ChatGPT和Claude在很多事情上都很出色，但如果你问他们一些超出加密货币基础知识的问题，比如协议机制、代币经济学，或者只是上周加密圈发生了什么，他们的短板就会显现出来。

ChatGPT and Claude are great at a lot of things, but ask them anything beyond the basics of crypto about protocol mechanics, tokenomics, or just what happened last week in crypto, and the gaps will start to show.

问题在于上下文。

The problem is context.

而Bankless，另一方面，花了近十年时间建立了全球最深厚的加密数据档案之一。

Bankless, on the other hand, has spent almost a decade building one of the deepest archives of crypto data anywhere.

超过2000份播客文字记录，10000篇文章，以及与真正建设这个行业的人们的无数次对话。

More than 2,000 podcast transcripts, 10,000 articles, and countless conversations with the people actually building this industry.

现在，我们将所有这些数据整合到了Bankless MCP中。

And now we've structured all of that data into the bankless MCP.

所以你可以去把它连接到你的Claude或ChatGPT，突然间，你的AI就能在Bankless整个档案的支持下回答你的加密问题了。

So you can go and connect it to your Claude or ChatGPT, and suddenly your AI can answer your crypto queries with the entire Bankless archive behind it.

而且每一篇新的Bankless文章或每一集节目都会自动添加进去，所以信息会一直保持最新。

And every new Bankless article or episode gets added automatically, so the context keeps staying up to date.

Bankless MCP只对Bankless的付费订阅用户开放。

The Bankless MCP is exclusively available to Bankless premium subscribers.

所以你可以去bankless.com，升级到付费版，几分钟内就能连接上MCP，然后你向AI大模型提出的加密问题，不管用哪个，都会好上一千倍。

So you can go to bankless.com, upgrade to premium, and connect the MCP in just a few minutes, and all of a sudden, your crypto queries to your AI LLM, whatever you use, will get a thousand times better.

所以去看看吧。

So go check it out.

节目说明里有个链接，一旦你成为Bankless的付费会员，就可以加入Bankless的Discord，告诉我你觉得怎么样。

There is a link in the show notes, and once you become a Bankless premium member, you can hop into the Bankless Discord and let me know how you like

有个激动人心的消息。

Some exciting news.

我们要推出一个新播客，帮大家搞清楚加密周期，以及怎么应对它。

We are launching a new podcast to help people figure out the crypto cycle, how to navigate it.

我认识的最好的加密周期投资者，他叫Michael Nato。

The best crypto cycle investor I know, his name is Michael Nato.

他运营着《DeFi报告》。

He runs the DEFI REPORT.

就是这个人，在10月10日价格暴跌之前给我发了卖出提醒。

This is the guy that sent me a sell alert before the 10/10 price drop happened.

他的周期分析一直非常精准。

His cycle analysis has been absolutely on point.

我关注他好几年了。

I've been following him for years.

今年，我们开始每周录制播客节目。

And this year, we started recording weekly podcast episodes.

每一期都会深入他的投资组合、他持有的资产、市场结构、入场目标、比特币和以太坊的公允价值，以及我们目前处于周期的哪个阶段。

Each one, get into his portfolio, what he's holding, the market structure, entry targets, fair market value of Bitcoin and Ether, and where we are in the cycle.

每周三都会发布新一期。

There's new episodes that are released every Wednesday.

每期大约三十分钟。

They're thirty minutes.

时间不长。

They're short.

内容很精炼。

They're punchy.

我觉得这轮加密周期比大多数周期都更难把握，所以让我们一起应对吧。

I think this crypto cycle is harder to navigate than most, so let's do it together.

去订阅这个播客吧。

Go subscribe to this podcast.

无论你在哪里听播客，YouTube、Apple、Spotify，或者查看节目笔记里的链接，搜索DEFI REPORT就行。

Search the DEFI REPORT wherever you get your podcasts, YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or find a link in the show notes.

现在有一集新节目在等着你。

There's a new episode waiting for you now.

这部分内容真的很有教育意义。

This was this was a super educational section.

对我来说是这样。

It's for me.

我真的很喜欢这段内容。

I really, really enjoyed this.

我想接下来聊聊加密货币中的期权领域。

I want to move on to just the sector, the options sector in crypto.

你能大概说说期权在加密货币中的规模有多大吗？

Can you just paint some numbers as to how big options are in crypto?

另外，能不能也谈谈期权在传统金融中的规模，这样我们可以对比一下加密货币期权市场的现状，以及如果参照传统金融的期权市场来推算，我们希望它达到的规模。

And then is it possible also just to talk about how big options are generally speaking, so we can kind of like anchor the size of the crypto industry options market versus what we hope it to be verse if we were to extrapolate, like, TradFi's options market.

我觉得相对于永续合约来说，在加密货币市场里，我的数据可能有点偏差，但数量级上应该差不多。

I think relative to perps were in terms of the crypto market, my stats could be, like, slightly off on this, but I think order of magnitude, it's probably correct.

我们大概占永续合约市场的3%到4%。

We're, like, 3% or 4% of the perp market.

而在传统金融里，两者规模差不多，甚至期权还稍微大一点。

And in TradFi, they're about the same, if not options being slightly bigger.

所以，要达到那个水平，我们还有30到40倍的增长空间。

So that's, you know, a 30 or 40 eggs to go to to sort of equalize to where we are.

在传统金融领域，绝对数字是惊人的，比如期权做市商赚了多少钱，交易量有多大。

In TradFi, I mean, the absolute numbers are are staggering, in terms of, like, the amount that option desks are making on the market maker side, how much volume is going through them.

确实有一个转折点。

There really was an inflection point.

我在2019年、2020年、2021年时在Susquehanna的交易台工作。

I was on a desk at Susquehanna in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, twenty twenty one.

那正是转折点的开始，当时Robinhood推出零佣金交易，引发了一些早期像大麻股那样的迷因股活动，接着是疫情，最后是2020、2021年的GameStop事件。

It's kind of at the beginning of that inflection point around, you know, zero commission trading with Robinhood leading to some early meme like activity on cannabis stocks through to the the pandemic and then finally, like, the GameStop stuff in in in twenty twenty, twenty twenty one.

我们就是在那个时候看到了那个转折点。

And that's really when we saw that inflection point.

从那以后，这些数字在全球范围内一直在增长。

And the numbers just have continued to grow since then, globally.

这是一个巨大的市场，无论从散户的角度还是机构对冲的角度来看都是如此。

It is a enormous market both from a retail perspective as well as, like, institutional hedging perspective.

很多这样的活动甚至都不在交易所上显示。

A lot of that activity doesn't even show up on the exchange.

其中很多也是通过场外双边交易完成的。

A lot of that is in OTC bilateral type deals as well.

我觉得市场大概是一半一半吧。

I think the market split is, like, you know, fifty fifty even.

所以实际成交量是报告数字的两倍。

So, like, there's double the actual amount of reported volume.

要说具体的原始数据，真的很难统计。

In terms of, like, actual raw stats, like, it's it's really hard to come up with.

名义交易量能达到千万亿级别。

It's in the quadrillions of notional volume.

有些单一做市商一个季度就能赚三四十亿美元的利润。

You have deaths from single market makers turning out, like, you know, 3 or $4,000,000,000 of profit in a quarter.

现在你听到的像Jane Street这样的公司。

You're hearing, like, the sort of Jane streets of the world now.

数字简直大得惊人。

It's just gargantuan numbers.

这主要是因为市场的大趋势，现在有太多人手里有钱，对市场有自己的看法，而且金融和股市的价值涨了这么多，各种交易工具也越来越普及，入门的成本也在降低。

And it is because of, you know, this broader trend in markets where there are so many people with, you know, money and opinions on the markets and, you know, the the sort of finance and the value of the stock market has just gone up so much, and all of these trading tools are getting democratized, and, you know, costs to entry are are coming down.

而且，在接下来的十到十五年里，还会有一波大规模的财富转移，从婴儿潮一代传到年轻一代手里。

And, you know, at some point in the next ten to fifteen years as well, you're gonna have this big wealth transfer from the boomers over to, the younger generations.

对，我觉得交易总体上会继续有很强的推动力。

And, yeah, I think, trading will continue to just have this this this big tailwind behind it in general.

我们知道在加密货币领域，交易所是第一个真正的业务。

As we know in crypto, the exchange is the first business of crypto.

在创造硬资产之后，第一个业务就是交易所。

The first business after, like, producing hard assets.

所以，在我们建立了区块链，重建了比特币、以太坊和货币之后，加密货币的下一个大产品就是交易所。

So, like, after we, you know, built blockchains, rebuilt, you know, Bitcoin, rebuilt Ether, rebuilt the moneys, the next big product in crypto was the exchange.

这是加密货币中最赚钱的商业模式。

And that's the most lucrative business model in crypto.

然后，永续合约，交易所特别喜欢永续合约，因为它们非常赚钱。

And then the perpetual, again, exchanges love perps because of how lucrative perps are.

就像你拿一个现货交易所，把它放大三倍、五倍、十倍，那就是你能赚到的手续费。

Like, you just take a spot exchange, you ratchet it up by three x, five x, 10 x, and that's the amount of fees that you get.

所以这个行业超级赚钱。

And so super lucrative industry here.

交易所简直就是一台印钞机。

Like, the exchange is just like such a cash cow.

期权作为一种产品，有多赚钱呢？

How lucrative are options as a product?

它的实际费用结构或者抽成比例是什么样的？

And like, what is that actual, like, fee structure or take rate look like?

你能大概描述一下期权交易所的经济模式吗？

Can you kind of paint a picture of the economics of options as a as an exchange?

作为交易所，我觉得我们的费率在所有流动性好的市场里应该是最低的。

As an exchange, I mean, we do have, I think, the lowest fees of, like, any liquid marketplace, in general.

就是按名义价值收取一个基点左右的费用。

It's like a, you know, basis point structure, like, on the notional.

我觉得我们的主要费率大概是三个基点，对吃单方来说，做市方还会更低一些。

I think our our headline rate's around three basis points, for takers, lower for makers as well.

按名义价值来算，这个费率是有上限的，因为有些期权，你知道，非常像尾部或者翅膀型的，所以它们花不了多少钱就能获得很大的名义敞口，比如那些深度虚值的期权，这些的费率上限是权利金的一定百分比。

On the notional value, it's capped because some options are, you know, very, like, tail or wingy, so they cost a lot of like, not very much money to get a lot of no notional exposure, like the out of the money deep out of the money stuff, and those are capped at, a, you know, percentage of the premiums.

我们有信心我们的费率是最低的，但总的来说，这个商业模式，因为这些产品更专业，流动性更难建立，期权交易所的网络效应更强，甚至比永续合约还要强，因为那些主要的参与者，你知道，那些大型机构交易者，他们行动比较慢，他们才是市场的建设者。

We're confident we have the lowest fees, but the business model in general, because they are more specialized, because, it's harder to build liquidity for, there are stronger network effects around options exchanges, even more so than perps because of how slow moving the anchor, you know, participants are, the big institutional traders who are building the market.

这就是为什么Derive在市场上能牢牢占据主导地位，尽管币安在2020年、2021年投入了大量资金试图挤进来。

It's why Derive had such a, you know, stranglehold on the market despite well funded attempts from, you know, Binance to to sort of muscle in in 2020, 2021.

而且币安的永续合约流动性更好。

And they had more liquid perps, Binance did.

但这并不重要。

But it doesn't matter.

关键在于期权的流动性网络效应。

It's about, like, that options liquidity network effect.

所以，是的，我觉得这里面有很大的定价权。

So, yeah, there's a lot of, I would say, pricing power.

同时，我们也在运营Derive，想鼓励大家来我们平台上开发。

At the same time, we are running, you know, Derive to try and encourage people to come and build on top of us.

我们一个月后推出的新版本会让这件事变得特别容易。

And the new version that we have out in in a month is going to make it exceptionally easy to do that.

我们希望人们来我们这里开发零售界面，比如用期权做结构化产品，或者用期权做对冲产品。

We want people to come in and build, you know, retail interfaces on top of us, like structured products using the options, hedging products using the options.

而且，对于这些集成商来说，经济效益甚至更好，因为你不仅能卖期权，还能卖收益结构。

And, you know, the economics for those sort of integrators can be even better because you can sell people, you know, not just options, but you can sell them, like, a payoff structure.

比如说，嘿。

Like, hey.

你把比特币放进我们的结构化产品，就能赚10%的收益，如果比特币涨到9万美元以上，它就会转换成现金。

You put your Bitcoin in our structured product and you earn 10% on your Bitcoin, and it gets converted into cash if Bitcoin goes above, you know, $90,000.

这就是一个备兑看涨期权。

That's a covered call.

用大白话说，他们可以对这个收益收取佣金，或者如果他们是面向零售的App，也可以随意加价。

Anything in the English language, they can charge a, you know, kind of like a commission on on that yield, or, you know, they can mark it up how they want if they're a retail facing app too.

而且，你知道，对于零售客户来说，期权这块，Robinhood 在期权上的收入，作为订单流付费的一部分，其实是零佣金，但他们通过出售订单流本身赚得盆满钵满。

And, you know, retail, it's you know, for options and what Robinhood was making on their options as part of their payment for order flow was zero commission, but they were making buckets on on the actual order flow that they were selling to.

所以很多大生意都是围绕这个订单流建立起来的。

So a lot of big business has been built around this flow.

我觉得这种情况只会继续下去，我们也希望其他团队能进来，自己尝试从中获利。

I think it will only continue, and we want other teams to come in and try and monetize that themselves.

跟我聊聊目前加密货币期权的市场结构吧。

Talk to me about just, like, the market structure of options in crypto as it stands.

你提到 Derive 有点像掌握了期权的金鹅，这个类比其实也适用于现货交易所。

You talked about Derive kind of owning the golden goose of options, and, you know, this this, analogy can apply to, like, spot exchanges too.

对吧？

Right?

币安就握着那只金鹅，它拥有最多的流动性，也能最有效地变现。

Binance holds the golden goose, it holds the most liquidity, it can monetize the strongest.

Coinbase 在美国市场也非常强势。

Coinbase also very dominant in The US market.