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Bakelistation。
Bakelistation.
今天和我一起的是Mo Jalil和Oskar Thoren。
I'm here with Mo Jalil and Oskar Thoren.
他们是EthSystems的联合创始人，这是以太坊基金会新分拆出来的项目，专注于三件事：以太坊、机构以及隐私。我认为这对整个加密货币领域，当然也包括以太坊，都是迫切需要的，能真正将以太坊提升到新的高度。
They are the cofounders of EthSystems, a new spin out out of the Ethereum foundation focused on three things, Ethereum, institutions, and privacy, which I think is, desperately needed for all of crypto and in Ethereum included, obviously, for really elevating Ethereum to the next level.
Oskar，Mo，欢迎来到Bankless。
Oskar, Mo, welcome to Bankless.
David，谢谢你邀请我们。
David, thanks for talking us.
谢谢。
Thank you.
为什么以太坊需要隐私？
Why do we need privacy on Ethereum?
Oskar，这个问题你来回答吧。
Oskar, I'll throw that to you.
当然。
Sure.
我觉得以太坊是一项很棒的技术，作为一个可信中立的底层平台表现得很好，但显然它没有内置隐私保护，所以你会看到很多人一直在想办法解决这个问题，无论是在底层，还是在应用层。
So I would say that Ethereum is great sort of technology and works great as a sort of credibility neutral base layer, but, obviously, it doesn't have privacy baked in, and that's why you see so a lot of people have been trying to figure out solutions for that, whether it's on the at the base layer, but also a lot on application layer.
所以基本上，这就是自由领域里缺失的那一块，而这就是我们进入的地方。
So, basically, that's sort of the missing piece, if you will, in the freedom land, and that's where we come in.
任何听Bankless的人都已经知道这些了，所以如果我重复很多次，我先道歉，但基本上对我们来说，我们关心的是机构，它们通常关心两件事：一是它们的业务，二是它们要合规。
Anyone that listens to Banklist already know this so I apologize if find me saying the same things for her many times but basically and for us we care about institutions they generally have two things that they really care about one is their business and the second is that they're compliant.
因为这两点，它们倾向于选择自己能控制的地方。
And because of those two things, they kind of tend towards places that they can control.
同时，公共以太坊有深厚的流动性，有所有这些新的商业机会，以及更好的方式去做它们已经做过的事情，但做得更好。
At the same time, you have public Ethereum, which has deep liquidity, has all these new business opportunities, and great ways of doing things they've already done, but much better.
但没有密码学，你两者都得不到。
But you can't get both without cryptography.
所以对它们来说，它们需要这个才能基本上获得以太坊的好处。
So for them, they need that in order to basically access the benefits of, like, basically, Ethereum.
能聊聊你们俩的背景吗？
Can we talk about your guys' backgrounds?
因为这对你们来说不是第一天了。
Because this is not day one for you guys.
对ETH Systems来说可能是第一天或者第一个月，但这只是你们很久以前就开始的漫长旅程的下一步。
This is day one for ETH Systems or or month one for ETH Systems, but this is just the next step on, I think, your guys' very long arc that started a while ago.
我们需要了解你们俩在以太坊、隐私保护和机构合作方面做了哪些工作，以及你们给ETH Systems带来了什么？
What context do we need to know from you two and the work that you've done in Ethereum, in privacy, and with institutions that you guys are bringing to ETH Systems?
Mo，也许你可以继续说说这个。
Mo, maybe just continue taking that one away.
好的。
Yeah.
先简单介绍一下我自己。
So a bit about myself.
我其实是从传统金融行业起步的。
So I actually started in traditional finance.
我以前在高盛做算法交易系统，做了大概五年。
I used to build algo trading systems like Goldman Sachs, and that's what I did for, like, five years.
所以我对这些投资银行需要什么样的东西非常了解。
So I have a really good understanding of the kind of things that, basically, these kind of investment banks need.
之后我在对冲基金领域又待了好几年。
I then spent basically a number of years kind of in the hedge fund world.
对我来说，那是我职业生涯中最有意思的部分，因为我接触了各种不同的东西。
And for me, that was like the interesting part of the arc where I was looking at all these different things.
我记得读比特币白皮书的时候特别震撼，但那时候太早了。
I remember reading the Bitcoin white paper being blown away, but like that was too early.
真的太早了。
That was way too early.
然后过了几年，我加入了以太坊基金会，主要负责亚太区的业务拓展。
And then fast forward a number of years, I joined the Ethereum foundation kind of leading a lot of the APAC b BD initiatives.
那是去年的事了，当时Tomash基本上是联席执行董事。
This was last year when there was you know, Tomash was basically co executive director.
然后有一件事变得非常明显。
And something became extremely obvious.
就是这些机构要想使用公共以太坊，它们都需要隐私保护。
Just in order for any of these organizations to use public Ethereum, they needed privacy.
它们需要密码学技术。
They needed cryptography.
其实我和奥斯卡认识有一段时间了。
And I had known Oskar for a while, actually.
我记得我给他打电话说，嘿。
So I remember calling him up and saying, hey.
听着，奥斯卡。
Look, Oskar.
我觉得有件事非常适合你，我们应该聊聊。
There's something that I think you'd be a great fit for, and we should talk about it.
我在以太坊和加密货币领域差不多待了十年左右。
So I've been there sort of Ethereum and crypto space for around a decade or so.
很早就非常关注隐私方面。
Focused, like, a lot on privacy very early on.
所以在这成为热门话题之前，我就在Status工作，还创建了一个研发实验室。
So before this was kind of like a big talking point to working at Status and also creating an R and D lab.
作为其中的一部分，我们当时在开发各种点对点通信协议，这些协议对传感器业务系统和隐私等很有用。
As part of that, we were sort of developing various type of peer to peer communication protocols that were useful for sensor business systems and privacy and so on.
所以我在协议设计和隐私抵抗方面，特别是在协议基础设施层，已经投入了相当长的时间。
So been sort of into protocol design and privacy as a resistance specifically on the protocol infrastructure layer for quite a while now.
然后我想在过去的五六年里，我一直在深入研究Synology证明，做了各种相关的工具，包括为PSC基金会的一些早期成员工作，还写了一本关于Synology证明的小书，做了一些与后续方案相关的研究，以及一些让客户端证明更容易的工具等等。
And then I guess the last five, six years, I've been sort of diving deeper into Synology proofs as of doing various various tooling for it, including work is over some of the early members of PSC at the foundation, and also wrote, like, a little mini book on Synology proofs, did some research related to following schemes and some tooling for making client side proving easier and so on.
在过去的几年里，我一直在基金会工作，也在隐私策略和现在的新访问层方面提供建议。
In the last few years, I've been at sort of, the foundation and also advising them when it comes to sort privacy strategy and now sort of the new access layer.
对。
Yeah.
正如Mo提到的，我们就是在那里认识的，然后我们启动了机构隐私工作组。
And as Mo mentioned, sort of we that's where we met, and we kick started institutional privacy task force.
对我来说，一个不同点是，他们过去主要关注个人隐私。
I think for me, one difference is that they used to sort of focus primarily on privacy of individuals.
虽然这仍然是我非常关心的事情，但我注意到的一点是，机构对隐私的需求非常非常大。
And while that's still something that's very the end cost to my heart, I think one thing that I noticed is that there's a massive, massive demand for privacy of institutions.
我认为这主要是过去几年出现的，因为监管越来越明确等等，你会发现很多机构其实非常在意隐私，在某些情况下甚至比个人更在意。
And I think that's come about sort of for the last few years as of where there's been more regular clarity and so on, and you see that a lot of institutions, they actually care a lot about privacy, to some extent even more so than than individuals in some circumstances.
所以我觉得这很令人兴奋，这也是我们过去一年专注的方向，在Publicis上构建东西，然后大约一个月前分拆成一个独立的实体。
So I thought that was quite exciting and sort of been a sort of great sort of opportunities as we've been focused on for the last year and sort of building things in in Publicis on and then spinning out into a separate entity a month ago or so.
对。
Yeah.
我想补充一点。
And just to add on that.
我觉得我们一个有趣的地方是，当我们分拆出来时，我们带着一年的工作成果，包括我们在多个工作坊中与各种组织实际合作的经验，以及我们发布的公共产品，基本上是一个市场地图，展示了人们正在关注的各种用例，以及它们如何映射到以太坊上的隐私解决方案。
So we basically I think one interesting thing about us is that when we spun out, we came out with a year's worth of work, like, an entire body of things that we've been doing from multiple workshops that we've gone, you know, hands on with lots of different organizations to, you know, public goods that we've published, which is basically a market map of all these different use cases that people are looking at and how they map onto private solutions in Ethereum.
最后，我们还有一些基础性的文章，讨论比如私人支付还是公共账本，公共账本与私人通道之类的比较。
And then finally, we had basic write ups looking at whether it's, like, you know, private disbursements or public, you know, led you know, public ledgers versus private rails, those kind of things.
所以对我们来说，这挺有意思的。
So I think for us, it was interesting.
对，就像你说的，E Systems这个组织成立还不到一个月，但我们做的工作不只是过去一年的，可能已经积累了十年的研究。
Like, yeah, like you said, the organization, like, E Systems is less than a month old, but the work we're doing spans not just a year, but probably a decade worth of like, the work that we've been looking at.
奥斯卡，你刚才说的有几件事，我想多了解一下。
There are a couple things you said, Oskar, that I'd like to learn a little bit more about.
你提到了EF的隐私策略。
You said privacy strategy for the EF.
你还说机构的隐私和个人的隐私是不一样的。
Then you also said privacy for institutions is different than privacy for individuals.
这两件事我都想多听听。
I wanna learn more about both of these things.
不过我们先从隐私策略开始吧。
But let's start with privacy strategy.
什么是隐私策略呢？
What does what is a privacy strategy?
比如，你能具体说明一下这个策略是什么吗？
Like, what can you, like, just illuminate what the strategy is?
对。
Yeah.
我觉得这很大程度上和PSC当时在以太坊基金会所处的背景有关。
So I think a lot of that had to do with sort the context that PSC found itself at the time at the Ethereum Foundation.
我们做的一件事就是尝试把这个话题带入以太坊基金会，看看基金会主要关注哪些隐私相关的事情。
And I think one thing that we did is sort of try to move move that into the Ethereum Foundation and see sort of what type of privacy things Ethereum Foundation focus on.
现在情况已经变了，有很多其他人在参与。
That has now morphed, and there's like a lot of other people.
所以我不想过多谈论以太坊基金会以及他们正在做什么。
So I don't wanna talk too much about sort of for Ethereum Foundation and what they are working on.
但我想补充一下Mo刚才说的，作为以太坊基金会机构隐私工作组的一部分，我们基本上是在尝试连接两个世界，一边是机构，另一边是生态系统。
But what I would what I wanna add to is also what Mo just said is that as sort of part of the institutional privacy task force at the Ethereum Foundation, what we were trying to do is basically connect to these two worlds where you have some institutions on one hand and an ecosystem on the other.
在和他们交流时，他们往往不太理解以太坊的世界，因为他们只是觉得，哦，这就是个区块链。
And and in talking to them, oftentimes, they didn't necessarily understand the Ethereum world because they just see sort of, oh, it's a blockchain.
根本没有隐私。
There's no privacy.
事实上，以太坊生态系统在协议、供应商和各种解决方案方面非常丰富。
The fact is that the Ethereum ecosystem extremely rich in terms of different protocols or vendors or various solutions that exist.
所以我们试图做的是向他们解释这个领域的现状，同时也与领域内的各种公司、协议工程师等交流，告诉他们实际存在的问题是什么。
So what we're trying to do is sort of explain to them what the space looks like and in turn also talking to various companies in the space and and and protocol engineers and so on and explain to them here's what the issues actually are looking for.
这就是为什么我们开发了隐私市场地图，我们讨论这些用户的具体需求，这些需求可能相当复杂，比如特定的业务需求或法律约束以及特定的用例，然后基本上将其映射到一系列解决方案中，无论是供应商还是协议等。
And that's why we sort of developed the privacy market map where we sort of talk about these kind of specific requirements these users have, and they can be quite sophisticated if it's like specific business requirements or legal constraints and specific use cases, and then basically map that into sort of a set of solutions, whether it's like vendors or protocols and so on.
然后基本上进行概念验证和撰写报告，以展示缺失的部分，比如如何组合这些构建块来创建适合这些用户需求的协议和解决方案。
And then basically doing POCs and write ups to show things that are missing, like how you can combine these building blocks to sort of create protocols and solutions that will fit what these users are looking for.
对。
Yeah.
我想快速补充一点，因为奥斯卡，我知道你提到了PSC，但听众可能不知道那是什么，实际上以太坊生态系统在隐私方面已经深耕了很多年。
I just wanna add one more thing on there just really quickly because I think, Oskar, I know you mentioned PSC and folks that are listening might not know what that is, but actually the Ethereum ecosystem has been deep in privacy for many, many years.
我知道隐私现在是一个非常热门的话题，尤其是去年Zcash和所有这些隐私协议的出现。
So I know privacy is, like, a really hot topic now, especially last year with Zcash and, you know, all these two of these privacy protocols.
但以太坊基金会设立密码学研究实验室已经有七年左右了。
But the EF has had a cryptographic research lab for seven years or so.
对吧？
Right?
那就是大家熟知的PSC。
And that's what that was known as PSC.
以太坊的隐私守护者，就是那群讨论和构建隐私解决方案的人。
The the privacy stewards of Ethereum, just like the the group of people talking and building about privacy solutions.
那你们说的这些，是不是意味着我们已经有了所需的隐私解决方案，就像现成的代码放在架子上，只要机构知道它们存在并且知道怎么用，就能直接拿来用？
Does does sell everything that you guys are saying, does this mean that we have the privacy solutions that we need in terms of just like code on the shelf ready to pull off the shelf and apply it if institutions just know it's there and know how to do it?
还是说，在以太坊上构建隐私系统方面，我们还有不少工作要做。
Or in the terms of just like building privacy on Ethereum, building private systems on Ethereum, we still have some building to do.
比如，我们处于这个进程的哪个阶段？是还需要构建更多解决方案，
Like, where are we in that arc of we still need to build more solutions?
还是说这些方案已经有了，只需要制定一些标准，或者让机构更了解它们，然后有人引导他们，把各个模块组合起来，得到他们需要的东西？
Or we already have those solutions and we just kind of need to come up with some standards or institutions just need to be made more aware of them and somebody that kind of needs to just hold their hand and put the building blocks together to get what they need.
那我们在以太坊隐私的发展上，现在处于什么阶段呢？
Like, where where are we with the evolution of privacy around Ethereum for It's it's
这是个好问题。
a good question.
我觉得现在的情况很复杂，各种情况都有。
I would say it's it's very much a mix.
我认为在过去十年里，你看到的一个趋势是，这在一定程度上要归功于以太坊基金会，但也要归功于这个领域的其他人，比如CCash和独立研究机构。
And I think one thing you see and have seen over the last decade, and this is partly due to sort of Ethereum Foundation, but other people in this space, like CCash and Independent Research.
我们一直在努力推动，让很多密码学技术真正变得可用。
We've been sort of pushing up and making a lot of sort of the cryptography actually usable.
然后围绕这些技术，也出现了一些公司，让它们变得更加易用。
And then there's sort of companies that have come up around that and sort of made it even more usable.
我觉得有些解决方案我们已经知道怎么做了，但一旦涉及到具体的限制条件，我觉得还有一段路要走，因为很多机构用例，它们的特定限制条件并不是那么明显。
I would say that some solutions we sort of know how to do, but then when it comes to specific constraints, I would say we are still there still is some a bit to go because a lot of these institutional use cases, they are not necessarily obvious in terms of the specific constraints.
所以你需要稍微定制一下，你可能会说，哦，那就用一个隐私二层网络吧。
So you do need to customize things a little bit, and you could say, oh, just use, like, a privacy l two.
但如果你深入了解具体细节，往往会遇到一些权衡取舍，不是每个机构都愿意接受的。
But if you look into the specifics, oftentimes, there's there comes a certain trade offs that not every institution is willing to sort of make.
而且当你和这些不同的公司交流时，很有意思的是，有些公司非常专业。
And it's very interesting when you when you talk to these various companies is that some of them, they're extremely sophisticated.
比如，他们有自己的研发部门，有20个人，还有密码学博士。
Like, they have their own r and d department with 20 people and photography PhDs.
而且我们研究这个领域已经好几年了。
And we were looking at the space for, like, years.
而在另一个极端，有些人可能没有很强的技术团队，但他们想要一个白标解决方案。
And then on the other end of spectrum, you have people who are just, like, maybe they don't have, like, a very strong technical team, but they sort of want, like, a white label solution.
所以你会看到，这些用户的需求差异很大，时间线和目标也各不相同。
So you see this wide sort of spectrum in terms of what these users are looking for and then also different timelines and different sort of targets.
如果是面向零售，那就需要极高的TPS扩展性；如果是更注重高保证的安全用例，那就另当别论。
If it's like retail, like massive scalability in terms of TPS, or if it's more of higher assurance kind of security use cases.
所以这完全取决于我们讨论的具体细节。
So it very much depends on the specific specifics we're talking about.
我再补充一点，可能你会反驳我，但我觉得至少在我们看的这类用例里，这更多是个工程问题，而不是研究问题。
And just to add on that, think maybe, I don't know if you're gonna push back on me on on this, but I think at least for the kind of use case that we look at, it's, I think, largely more of an engineering problem as opposed to, like, a research problem.
自我托管赢了，但可用性还是有问题。
Self custody won, but it still has a usability problem.
写在纸上的助记词仍然是单点故障。
A seed phrase on paper is still a single point of failure.
手机会丢，设备会坏，备份会消失。
Phones get lost, devices break, backups disappear.
BITKEY 就是为这种现实打造的自我托管硬件钱包。
BITKEY is a self custodial hardware wallet built for that reality.
它采用 2/3 多重签名，密钥分别存放在你的手机、BITKEY 硬件设备和 Block 上。
It uses a two of three multisig with keys split across your phone, the BITKEY hardware device, and Block.
没有任何一把单独的密钥能移动你的比特币，而且 Block 永远无法单独移动它。
No single key can move your Bitcoin, and BLOCK can never move it alone.
没有助记词需要担心丢失或泄露，如果你丢了手机、BITKEY 或者两者都丢了，内置的恢复功能也能帮你找回路径。
There's no seed phrase to lose or expose, and if you lose your phone, your BITKEY, or both, built in recovery gives you a path back.
硬件屏幕还能让你在批准交易前确认收款地址。
The hardware screen also lets you verify the destination before approving a transaction.
这就是重点——更多控制权，而不会因为一个失误就让一切陷入风险。
And that's the point more control without one mistake putting everything at risk.
所以今天就下载 BitKey，使用促销码 BANKLESS，享受 10% 的折扣。
So download BitKey today and use promo code BANKLESS to get 10% off of your BitKey.
本期节目由 BitKey 赞助播出。
This episode has been sponsored by BitKey.
市场不会只单独波动一种资产。
Markets don't move one asset at a time.
今天是比特币，明天是英伟达，然后是黄金，接着是标普500。
One day it's Bitcoin, the next Nvidia, then gold, and then the S and P.
但大多数交易者仍然在不同的平台、不同的账户和不同的资金池中管理他们的投资组合。
But most traders are still managing their portfolio across different platforms, different accounts, and different pools of capital.
BITKEY 刚刚改变了这一点。
BITKEY just changed that.
他们的新股票2.0产品让你直接用USDT交易代币化股票，而且就在你平时用来做加密货币的那个应用里。
Their new stocks two point o product lets you trade tokenized equities directly with USDT, all inside the same app you already use for crypto.
这可不是又一个代币化股票产品。
This is not just another tokenized stock product.
股票2.0的设计围绕更深的流动性、更快的执行速度，以及市场上最低的费用，只要0.04%，并且对底层股票有一对一的经济敞口。
Stocks two point o is designed around deeper liquidity, faster execution, and the lowest fees in the market at just point zero four percent and one to one economic exposure to the underlying stock.
股息、股票拆分和其他公司行为都会自动反映，让你的持仓始终与你真正想接触的资产保持一致。
Dividends, stock splits, and other corporate actions are reflected automatically, helping your position stay aligned with the asset you actually want exposure to.
一个平台，一个账户，多个市场，加密货币、股票、大宗商品等等，都可以用USDT访问。
One platform, one account, multiple markets, crypto equities, commodities, and more, all accessible with USDT.
BITKEY。
BITKEY.
更聪明地交易。
Trade smarter.
今天就通过节目说明中的链接开始交易吧。
Start trading today through the link in the show notes.
这不是投资建议。
This is not investment advice.
我交易加密货币差不多十年了，这些年用过很多不同的钱包、交易所、聚合器，还有各种前端界面，我一直在找同一样东西。
I've been trading crypto for almost a decade, and I've used so many different wallets, exchanges, aggregators, different front ends over the years, and I'm always kind of looking for the same thing.
就是一个界面，能跨多条链和多种资产提供深度流动性，让我能进入所有市场，比如永续合约、赚取收益、保密交易，同时还能自己掌控所有资金。
Just one interface with deep liquidity across a bunch of chains and assets where I can access all the markets like perps, earn yield, trade confidentially, and still control all my own funds.
但我一直没找到这样的体验，总是换来换去钱包，忙着处理燃气费，还被滑点吃掉利润。
And I've never really found this experience, and I'm always switching wallets, juggling gas fees, and just getting eaten by slippage.
Near.com 不是那样的。
Near.com is not that.
对我来说，它感觉完全不一样。
It feels fundamentally different to me.
我可以从任何链上做我想做的一切，而且我的所有活动都是保密的。
I can do everything I want from any chain, and I keep all my activity confidential.
我甚至还能保密地赚取收益。
I can even earn yield confidentially.
这就是加密货币应该有的样子。
It's the way crypto should work.
near.com钱包由NEAR提供支持，已经通过后量子签名跨链转移了超过250亿美元，并且主网上线五年多来零停机。
The near.com wallet is powered by NEAR, and it's moved over $25,000,000,000 cross chain using post quantum signing and has run over five years on main net with zero downtime.
near.com就是在链上并掌控一切的最佳方式。
Near.com is simply the best way to be on chain and be in control.
通过节目说明中的bank list链接，可以返还你20%的交易手续费，这不是投资建议。
Get 20% of your trading fees back using the bank list link in the show notes, not investment advice.
好的。
Okay.
所以，研究已经完成了，而工程方面，似乎就是以太坊现在的状态。
So the the research is done and the engineering, it seems to be like that that is just like where Ethereum is these days.
研究基本上已经完成了。
It's like the research is mostly done.
剩下的就是工程问题了。
It's about just about engineering.
我们能不能过一下你们跟最普通的机构客户打交道时的那种典型案例？
Can we can we go through like a just a typical case study that you guys have with like your most average institution conversation that you have.
比如说，他们最看重哪种隐私？
Like, what's the number one form of privacy that they are looking for?
是稳定币的账户余额，还是说他们对创建真实世界资产或使用真实世界资产感兴趣，不想暴露自己持有多少资产？
Is it their account balances with stable coins or if they are interested in the pot like, creating real world assets or using real world assets, it's like revealing their how much of an asset that they have.
还是说发送这些资产？
Is it sending these assets?
比如，企业之间用稳定币进行私密的转账支付？
So, like, it's private business to business stablecoin transfers for payments?
企业可能不想在链上公开这些交易活动。
Like, businesses probably don't want to reveal that activity on chain.
在你们跟客户的交流中，最常见的隐私需求是什么？
What kind of privacy is the most common commonly needed privacy for in the conversations that you guys have?
对。
Yeah.
那我在这里补充一点。
So I can add a bit of color here.
首先，我觉得就我们做的工作来说，覆盖的用例范围很广，而且说实话，我们通常花时间在那些还没被解决的问题上。
So first of I think when it comes to the work that we do, we span a broad range of use cases, and our time is usually spent on the work that hasn't already been solved, to be perfectly honest.
比如说，你刚才提到的那些情况，我觉得很多人都知道，比如私人支付、代币化存款这些，它们很棒，但在很多方面已经算是解决了，至少对某些国家的某些机构来说是这样。
So for example, when you talk about the situations that you just talked about, all of them I think a lot of people know about them like for example private payments you know kind of tokenized deposits those are great but they're already kind of solved in many ways at least for some organizations in some countries.
我们关注的工作类型，其实是那种还没人真正去碰过的。
The type of work that we look at is kind of like the work that really hasn't been taken a look at yet.
我可以给你举几个例子。
I can give you some examples right.
比如，我们确实在跟一个特定的机构谈，就说是一级投资银行吧，他们做一种叫“交易商间压缩”的事情，对吧？
So one is that you know we were definitely talking to a particular organization let's just say tier one investment bank where they do this thing known as interdealer compressions Right?
每天结束时，他们会把所有交易发给一个可信的第三方，为此他们每年要付几百万美元，甚至几千万，如果不是上亿的话。
So what ends up happening at the end of the day, they send all of their trades to a trusted third party, which they pay millions of dollars a year, by the way, tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions dollars a year.
然后这个可信的第三方会查看这家银行的交易和所有头寸。
And what happens is that this trusted third party, they look at this bank's trades and all of their positions.
他们再看另一家银行的交易和所有头寸，然后进行净额结算。
They look at another bank's trade, all of their positions, and then they net it out.
没人喜欢做这个，但他们还是做了，因为压缩这些交易能带来价值。
And no one likes doing this, but they do it because the value it brings in terms of compressing these trades down.
首先，资本要求会降低，因为他们不需要准备那么多资金。
And they first we'll have less capital requirements because they'll have to you know get that ready.
他们需要处理的交易也少了，基本上有人来找我们，说等等，有没有办法做到这一点？这就是一个完美的例子，像以太坊或共享状态这样的基础新技术，可以让他们在没有那个第三方的情况下实现这个。
They have less transactions they have to do and we basically had someone that come to us and they're like well hold on a second is there any way that we could do this and this is the perfect example where a kind of like I would say foundational new technology like Ethereum or shared state could give them this without this particular third party.
但问题是，这样一来，全世界都能看到所有东西。
But the problem is then the entire world gets to see everything.
所以这是一个非常具体的用例的例子，我跟其他团队聊过，大多数人还没真正看到这个业务或这个机会需要被解决。
So that's an example of, like, a very specific use case that, you know, I've talked to other teams about this, and most people haven't really seen this business or this opportunity that needs to be addressed.
但这本身就是一个几十亿美元的业务，值得去研究。
But this in itself is a several billion dollar, basically, business that could be could be taken a look at.
这是第一个例子。
That's one.
关于你提到的私人支付，我们和不同地区的很多机构聊过，他们都有各自不同的需求。
To your point around basically private payments, we've talked to a number of different organizations across different jurisdictions that are looking at this, and they all have different requirements.
我觉得Oskar说得很好，有时候像私人支付这样的用例大家都懂，但具体到某个地区，就会衍生出很多不同的变体，做起来并不简单。
And I think Oskar made a great point where, like, sometimes a use case is well known, like private payments, but the jurisdiction it's in gives you a very various permutation of it that makes it nontrivial to do.
对。
Yeah.
另外我想补充一点，我们经常讨论隐私，这当然很好。
Also to add on that, like, I would say, we talk about privacy a lot, and I think that's great.
这非常重要。
It's very important.
但我不希望我们只关注这一点，因为很多时候，如果你考虑构建机密且安全的系统，隐私只是你关心的一个方面。
But I I don't want us to focus only on that because oftentimes, if you go if you think about building confidential and secure systems, that's one of the things you care about.
你还会关心安全属性，比如系统是否具备持久性，以及可扩展性等等。
Like, you also care about sort the security properties and and sort of if it's sensor persistent and and sort of scalability and so on.
所以很大程度上，这也是在提升这个领域的严谨性，因为你看这些用户，他们其实已经有了产品市场契合度。
So it's a lot of it is also about sort of elevating the space a little bit in terms of rigor because if you look at all these users, they already have product market fit.
所以他们已经有一个系统，里面有数十亿美元在流动，他们希望能够有信心地迁移到以太坊上。
So they already have, like, a system with, like, billions of dollars flowing through, and they wanna be able to move on to Ethereum with confidence.
为了做到这一点，他们需要真正确保系统按预期运行。
And in order to do so, they need to actually be sure that the system works the way it's supposed to.
所以这和那种随便写个应用或者什么的有点不同。
So that's, like, a little bit different from, like, you know, like, vibe coding app or whatever.
这要求你真正仔细思考你拥有的安全属性是什么。
Like, it it requires you to actually think carefully about what are security properties that you have.
隐私绝对是其中之一，也是最棘手的之一，但只是几个属性中的一个。
And privacy is definitely one of them and one of the more tricky ones, but also just one out of several.
所以你需要从整体上考虑所有这些属性，作为一个系统来考虑，并且要有相关的技术规范等等。
So you need to think about all of them as a whole in in terms of a system and, like, having kind of technical specifications around this and so on.
所以我认为这是另一个需要更全面思考的事情，不仅仅是多个属性，而且所有这些属性都必须得到满足，机构才真正愿意迁移过来。
So I think that's, like, another thing to think, like, a bit more holistically about it that just, like, multiple properties, and they all have to be satisfied in order for institutions actually wanna move over onto.
我知道这可能不是一个令人满意的答案，关于最流行的用例是什么。
I know what that might not be like a satisfactory answer in terms of what's the most kind of popular use case.
这可能是因为我们专门去解决那些特别边缘化的问题。
It's probably because we go for the really kind of edge case kind of problems that are out there.
有没有一个例子，或者你们过去合作过的案例，我们可以聊聊，就是你们和某个机构从开始接触到最终完成整个对话的过程？
Is there an example is there like a case study that you guys have worked with in the past that we can talk about where you you could had the end to end conversation of you had you started talking to this institution.
他们有隐私方面的需求。
They had a privacy need.
你们和他们合作，做了你们该做的事情，现在他们正在以保密、私密的方式使用以太坊。
You guys worked with them, did whatever you guys do, and now they are using Ethereum in a confidential private way.
有没有一个你们已经成功落地的案例，可以给我们讲讲？
Is there is there a story you could tell us about, like, an example that's, like, worked so far?
是的。
Yeah.
我可以给你讲个故事。
I I I can tell you a story.
我不知道能不能提名字，因为……
I don't know if we can mention names because
对。
Yeah.
我想也是。
I would figure.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，如果我们谈的是隐私问题。
I mean, if we're talking about privacy.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
人们其实不太喜欢，你知道的，Janet，尤其是你越有名气，拥有的越多，就越不想分享。
People people don't like to, you know, Janet, especially the bigger you are, the more that you have that you basically don't wanna share.
但我们可以聊几个例子。
But we can talk about a couple.
比如说，我们谈支付。
So for example, so we're talking about payment.
这个大家都懂。
Everyone understands that.
对吧？
Right?
就像，你知道，我付钱给你，在链上完成，所有人都能看到。
Like, you know, I I, you know, I do a payment to you and doing that on chain, everyone sees it.
这是一个很常规的用例。
It's a use case that, you know, bog standard.
但在某些特定的司法管辖区，这就有点不常规了，因为首先，他们希望这是保密的，而且他们想在全国范围内推广。
For a particular jurisdiction, it's a bit non standard because first of all, they want they want it to be confidential, and they would like to roll out for almost the entire country.
所以他们的想法是，他们认为区块链很了不起。
So what's happened to them is they're like, we we think blockchains are amazing.
他们认为支付很棒，但他们需要能够在全国范围内大规模地实现这一点。而支付通常只有两个参与者，即发送方和接收方，这被称为点对点支付，通常只有两个参与者。但由于这个特定国家的情况，他们有监管要求，支付需要四个参与者。
We we think you know payments are great but we need to be able do it at scale for an entire nation and the thing about a payment is that normally it only has like really two actors which is a sender and a receiver it's known as like a d p p like they usually have two actors But because of this particular country, they have a regulatory requirement to have four actors for payments.
这四个参与者是发送方、接收方、审计方，以及基本上就是政府。
This is the sender, the receiver, the auditor, and then the government essentially.
为了以保护隐私的方式实现这一点，他们尝试了，我想，两到三年的时间。
And to do that in a privacy preserving way, they tried for, I think, two to three years.
我在这里不具体说年份，他们基本上试遍了所有现有的协议，但都没能找到一个可以接受的方案。
I'm I'm anonymizing the years, and they've had basically, you name it, protocols are out there, and they were not able to do one in a way that was acceptable.
基本上，性能不够。
Basically, wasn't performing enough.
他们能不能达到每秒交易数（TPS）的要求？
Could they basically hit the TBS?
他们能不能做到计算成本不那么离谱？
Could they do it in a way that it basically is not like ridiculous computational costs?
有意思的是，在过去一年左右的时间里，我们基本上一直在发布我们的市场地图。
And what's interesting is that for the last year or so, we've basically been publishing our market map.
我们一直在写报告，他们基本上看到了我们做的一个概念验证和成果，因为我们经常围绕以太坊上可能做的事情做探索性工作，然后他们说，等等，我们试过，我不想提协议或团队的名字，但我们试过X、Y和Z，花了三四年时间，我们发表了一份16页的报告，说明为什么我们做不到，但看起来实际上以太坊基金会出来的这个工作可能对我们有用，所以他们基本上联系我们说，嘿，等等，我们很希望你们能参考你们的工作，构建一个看起来能解决我们需求的东西。这就是一个例子，我觉得没人觉得这个工作有趣，它可能能解决一些人的问题，但你可以大规模地做。
We've been doing write ups, and they basically saw one of the basically proof of concepts and works that we've done because we often do exploratory work around what you could potentially do on Ethereum and they're like hold on a second we've tried you know I don't want name the protocols or the teams but we tried x y and z for three four years we published a natural report about it's a 16 page report and why we can't do it but it seems like actually this like piece of work that's coming out of the EF could work for us so they basically reach out to us and they're like hey hold on a second we'd love to have you guys you know reference your work and build something that actually looks like it could kind of solve our needs and that's an example of one where I think no one is the work kind of interesting, and it might it might solve a few people's problems, but you can do it at scale.
你可以做到影响数千万人。
You can do it where you can affect tens of millions of people.
我觉得这就是我们做过的一些事情的例子，如果我们没有做这些开源工作，没有发布它，没有人看到它，他们可能就会把这件事搁置很久，或者更糟，我应该说更糟，他们会去某种私有网络。
And I think that's an example of, like, some of the things that we've done that, you know, had we not done this open source work, had we not published it, had people had seen it, they probably would've just put that on the back burner for a very long time or worse yet, gone to, I say worse yet, gone to some kind of private network.
我还想补充一点，如果你想想机构的那种销售周期，那是相当长的。
I would also add a little bit to that that, like, if you think about the institutional sort of sales cycle, are quite long.
所以很多时候，要启动某件事需要做很多工作，而且这里面有一些保密性，然后要过一段时间你才能真正看到你劳动的完整成果。
So oftentimes, like, it requires quite a lot of lot of work to sort of get something going, and there's, like, you know, some confidentiality around that, and then it takes a while until you actually see sort of the complete fruits of your labor.
所以这通常就是这样。
So that that's generally, like, a thing.
我觉得我们在ETH注意到的一件事，这也是让我们觉得作为一个独立的营利实体是有意义的想法来源，就是我们有很多与各种机构的接触和合作。
And I think one thing we noted at ETH, and this is also one thing that gave us, I guess, the idea to sort of that it makes sense as a separate for profit entity is that we had a lot of engagements and collaborations with various various institutions.
而且有很多情况下，人们会说，好的。
And there were many cases where people are like, okay.
所以我们很想继续和你们合作。
So we would love to sort of continue working with you guys.
我们该怎么付钱给你们呢？
How can we sort of pay you?
我们基本上会说，不行。
We'll basically say, no.
不行。
No.
不行。
No.
我们是非营利组织。
We're nonprofit.
我们得保持中立，所以我们必须拒绝。
Like, we we have to be neutral and so So we have to say no.
有时候有些对话会停下来，因为FFN基金会保持绝对中立非常重要，等等。
And as sometimes where sort of some conversations stop because it's extremely important that FFN Foundation stays incredibly neutral and so on.
所以我们得退一步，让别人接手。
So we kind of have to back off there and let other people sort of take the take the ball there.
但我觉得这也说明了很多，比如需求有多大。
But But I think that also shows a lot about, like, how much demand there is and so on.
现在我们逐渐独立出来，成立一个单独的营利性实体，签这些商业协议就容易多了，因为机构更容易理解。
And so as we've been sort of spinning out now and and into a separate for profit entity, it's a lot easier to have sort of these commercial agreements in place because it's a lot easier for an institution to understand.
合同方面也很直接。
It's very straightforward in terms of contracts as well.
我从你们这里听到的是，感觉有很多非常定制化的解决方案需要构建，就像你们说的，针对特定合规管辖区中隐私的具体组合，以及特定机构的具体需求。
What I'm hearing from you guys is it feels like there is a lot of very bespoke solutions that need to be built, as you said, for the specific permutation of privacy in a particular compliance jurisdiction for the specific needs of a specific institution.
我担心的是，如果我们一直做定制化的东西，那很难规模化。
My concern about that is that if we keep doing bespoke stuff, it doesn't really scale.
因为如果你做一只完美贴合的手套，它只能适合一只手。
Because if you make a perfectly fitting glove, it's going to fit one one hand.
对吧？
Right?
我看到的另一种选择是，我们有以太坊的核心，比如Uniswap、Aave、EOS，还有我的地址、我的账本。
And the alternative that I see for that is like, well, we have the core of Ethereum, things like Uniswap, things like Aave, things like EOS, like my address, my ledger.
如果我们能在这些核心组件中实现隐私保护，那么以太坊整体的可扩展性就会大大提升。
And if we can get privacy in these core things, the level of scalability that we get on Ethereum on net is going to become much larger.
也许机构可以在我们实现高保真隐私、易于访问并接近以太坊默认状态后，稍微调整一下自己。
And maybe institutions can, like, once once we get pretty high fidelity privacy scaled and easily accessible and closer to a default on Ethereum, then the institutions could, like, bend a little bit.
他们会说，这并不完全合适，但我可以稍微改变一下我的系统来适应这种隐私形式。
And they're like, this doesn't perfectly fit, but, I can maybe change my systems a little a little bit in order to fit this form factor of privacy.
如果我们让所有人都采用同一标准，那么以太坊和整个世界的隐私总量就能大幅增长。
And if we get everyone onto the same standard, then the total amount of privacy both on Ethereum and on the world can can grow massively.
所以我想问的是，我对你们所做工作的可扩展性有些担忧，难道我们不需要把隐私更多地融入以太坊核心，而不是在边缘做定制化的事情吗？
And so I'm I'm I have a I guess the question is a concern about the scalability of what you guys are doing and isn't don't we just need privacy a little bit more baked into, like, Ethereum core rather than doing bespoke stuff on the margins?
你们怎么看？
How would you guys respond to
对。
Yeah.
这个问题我其实有个很好的回答。
I've actually got a real good answer for this.
有几点要说。
So couple of things.
第一，我觉得我们可以两者兼顾。
I think one is that we could do both.
这是第一点。
That's one.
有很多项目都在做这个，这也是为什么我觉得EthSystems很棒。
There are many things that do that, and that's why I think EthSystems is amazing.
第二点是，我们说的这些定制化方案，其实每个市场、每个行业都大得惊人。
The second thing is that, you know, we talk about these bespoke bills, but, actually, each one of these markets each one of these industries is freaking huge.
我们说的可是几亿甚至几十亿美元的规模。
We're talking about potentially hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars.
所以我们的想法是，我们其实不喜欢做纯定制的项目，我们认为那是个很糟糕的主意。
So the way we think about it is that we actually like we don't like doing purely bespoke bills we think that's a really bad idea.
我们认为应该深入了解这些高度特定的使用场景，因为如果你不理解，就没法真正解决。
What we think is that you go in and understand these highly specific use cases because if you don't really understand it, can't really solve it.
最终你能做的是创建通用的解决方案，这些方案可以被其他人复用。
And what you end up doing is that you can create generalized solutions that can be reusable for other people.
比如，我之前提到过的数据压缩，对每家投资银行都有用。
So for example, I told you about the inter data compressions that can be useful every investment bank.
我们还讨论过，比如他们的多方数据库，也可以推广开来。
We talked about, for example, their their kind of like, you know, multi party DBPs that can also be spread out.
所以我们的计划，我们的思路是，我们想要通用化，并且想做两件事。
So our plan really is the way that we think about it is that we wanna generalize, and we wanna do two things.
第一，在可能的地方开源，与世界分享，因为这基本上能加强人们对以太坊隐私的看法。
One is that where we can open source and share with the rest of the world because that basically hardens the way that people look at privacy on Ethereum.
第二，把这些可复用的组件整合起来，形成一个堆栈，让人们可以轻松启用。
The second is that take these reusable components and put them into a place where it then essentially become a stack that people can easily switch on.
所以我的想法是，这种定制化的工作几乎就像你创业时有了一个想法一样。
So the way I think about it is that this bespoke work is almost like you know when you do a startup and have this idea made.
巴拉吉就谈到了这个想法。
So Balaji talks about the idea made.
你去尝试找出什么有效，保罗·格雷厄姆也提到过要做那些不能规模化的事情，这在和机构合作时非常重要，因为他们已经有自己的系统了。
You go and you try to find out what works and you know Paul Graham also talks about things like you know do things that don't scale and that really is important when you work with institutions because they have these systems already.
他们拥有数十亿美元的业务。
They have billions of dollars of of of business.
要让他们上链，你必须从他们那边入手，而不是从DeFi原生那边开始。
And to get them on chain, you have to start from that side as opposed to the DeFi native side.
而且我觉得，就像你说的，两边都有人在做事，但我认为实际上在传统金融那边，然后把他们转化到以太坊上的人还不够多，相比之下，已经有很多团队在加密货币原生那边，正朝着另一个方向走。
And I think, like you said, like, there's different people working on both, but I don't think actually enough people are working on the TradFi side that then converts them to Ethereum as opposed to there are many teams already on the crypto native side that are kind going the other way.
所以两边都做才是正确的做法。
So having both is the way to do this.
对。
Yeah.
我同意这个看法。
I would agree with that.
而且，总的来说，这个领域在通用基础设施上投入了很多，可以说是这样。
And, also, like, I would say, like, in general, the space has invested, like, a lot in, like, generic infrastructure, if you will.
就像如果你建好了，他们就会来。
And, like, if you build, they will come.
但情况并不总是这样，尤其是当你在谈论那些有非常具体需求的大型机构时。
But that's not always the case, especially when you're talking about these large, you know, instances with, like, very specific requirements.
所以我觉得，先针对具体需求去做，然后再推广到一般情况，这样是有价值的。
So I think there's value in, like, actually going after the specifics and then generalizing after.
我们有几个方式在做这件事。
And there's a few ways we're doing that.
一个是我们在推出的开源库，比如构建模块，还有技术规范，这些规范写得可以推广到一般情况，或者如果是特殊情况，也会写得很清楚。
So, like, one is in terms of open source libraries that we're pushing out, so, like, building blocks, and also in terms of, like, technical specifications that are written in such a way that they can sort of be generalized or you sort of to the extent that is special case, you sort of make that very clear.
就像Swapball、Plugable，或者Modeler之类的。
So it's like Swapball or Plugable or sort of Modeler and so on.
而且我觉得总的来说，基础层的隐私保护真的很棒。
And then I think in general, like base layer privacy is amazing.
我们很希望看到这一点，这会让我们有更多的应用场景。
We would love to see that, and that would just enable us of even more use cases.
所以我们绝对支持这个。
So we definitely support that.
我觉得这很好。
I think it's great.
只是这不是我们主要关注的重点。
It's just not the main thing we're focusing on.
然后还有很多其他的事情。
And then there's like a lot of other things.
比如，当我们谈到流动性时，在互操作性方面有一些解决方案，比如如果你在一个经济区之类的。
So for example, when we talk about liquidity, there's like solutions when it comes to interoperability, like if you're in an economic zone and these sorts of things.
所以我确实认为你可以两全其美，而且有很多不同的方法可以做到这一点。
So I do think you can get the best of both worlds and there's like many different ways to approach this.
我们更关注的是，怎么真正把机构带到以太坊上来，这是我们的首要任务。
We are focusing more on, like, how do we actually move institutions onto Ethereum, and that's, like, our number one priority.
对。
Yeah.
我再补充一点，我知道我们有很多点要讲，但我觉得对于那些可能已经运营了上百年甚至更久的组织，你需要搭建一座桥梁，从他们现有的基础出发。
And just to add on that, I know we've got, like, a million points here, but I think for organizations that may have been running for hundreds like, over a hundred years, some of are, like, that old, you need to kind of build that bridge and come from where they're building.
就像，嘿。
It's like, hey.
你看。
Look.
你的业务是这样的。
This is how your business is.
好。
Okay.
让我们把它转化一下。
Let's let's translate that.
我觉得硬要他们按另一种方式来做，可能行不通。
I think trying to force them into doing it the other way might not work.
我们看到很多团队试过那样做，但都没成功。
We've seen a lot of teams that have tried that, and it hasn't worked for them.
ETH Systems 是初创公司还是非营利组织？
Is ETH Systems a start up or a nonprofit?
ETH Systems 背后的法律实体是什么？
What what's the legal entity behind ETH Systems?
ETH Systems 是一个营利性实体。
So ETH Systems is a for profit entity.
营利性。
Profit.
好的。
Okay.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
因为我想问的是，这件事是不是最好以创业公司的形式来做，目标是打造一个可扩展的、风险投资规模的结果？
Because my question was gonna be like, isn't this best done as a start up trying to build a very scalable venture sized outcome?
你们是营利性的。
You guys are you guys are a for profit.
你们是这样定位的吗？
Are is is that where you guys are?
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我不是非营利组织。
I'm not for profit.
是的。
Yes.
我当时就想，好吧。
I was like I was like, okay.
等一下。
Wait a second.
如果你们进行了所有这些对话，并且你们看到你们可以构建解决方案，那么这难道不是最好用KPI来做吗？
If you guys are having all of these conversations and you're seeing you're seeing that you can build solutions, like, isn't this best done with something, like, with KPIs?
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比如TVL和交易量，你们抽成，但这就是你们做的事。
Like, t TVL and volume and you guys take, like, a cut, but that is what you guys do.
对对，对我们来说，我们选择做营利组织，其实有几个原因，这也是我们经常讨论的问题，对吧？
Yeah yeah so for us it's for profit organization for a couple of reasons actually and this is something that we debate we actually ask but we talk about this quite a lot right?
我觉得在我们这个领域有很多非营利组织，它们都很棒，但就我们做的工作而言，这将是一个多年的旅程。
It was like I think there are a lot of non profit organizations in our space and I think they're amazing but for the work that we're doing, it's gonna be a multi year journey.
而我认为，最可持续的资助方式，就是作为营利实体来做。
And the most, I think, cleanest way to sustainably fund it is to do as a for profit entity.
这是第一个原因。
That's one.
因为公共产品资金极其难获得。
Because public goods funding is extremely, extremely hard.
而且在我看来，补助金应该给那些真正需要的人。第二个原因是，我们合作的机构，为了让我们完成最后一公里的工作，他们实际上要求你必须是营利组织才能通过采购流程。
And in my opinion, grants should be given to people that really need The second thing is that the types of organizations that we work with in order for us to do the last mile they actually require you to be a for profit organization to go through procurement.
有时候，非营利身份反而是一个红旗，他们就是没法跟你合作。
Like being a nonprofit is actually a red flag sometimes and they just can't work with you.
所以基于这两个原因，我们基本上就选择了营利性组织的模式。
So for those two reasons, we basically went with the basically a for profit rule.
顺便说一下，我们也知道生态系统里有很多姐妹组织和朋友是非营利性的，他们可以在那边接手一些工作。
Knowing, by the way, that we have so many sister organizations and friends in the ecosystem that are nonprofit, and they can kind of prepare, pick up the land over there.
而且就我个人而言，至少在过去七年左右，我大部分时间都是在非营利组织那边工作。
And also, like, just personally, like, at least for the last seven years or so, like, I mostly worked out of nonprofit side.
我确实很看重那方面的经验。
Definitely value that.
我觉得在研发、深入探索公共产品等方面，非营利组织有巨大的价值。
And I think there's amazing value in terms of this, like, r and d and going really deep and public goods and so on.
所以那真的很棒。
So that that's amazing.
我觉得在这个案例里，就像你提到的，商业模式非常直接明了。
I think in this case, it's kind of obvious as you kind of alluded to that it's a very straightforward business model.
你知道，有客户，他们愿意为某些东西付费，而我们能帮到他们。
You know, there's a customer, and they're willing to pay for something, and we can help them.
所以我觉得在这种情况下，这样做很有道理，尤其是莫提到的那些原因，比如商业对手方等等。
So I think that's it makes a lot of sense in this in this instance, especially for the reasons Moe mentioned in terms of commercial counterparty and so on.
我想补充一点，我们不仅仅是在做这个。
I would add that, like, we're not only doing that.
我们处理这个问题的方式是，我们基本上有两条工作线。
So the way we approach this, we kind of have these two work streams.
一条是商业驱动的，另一条是开源的。
So one is business driven, and another is open source.
在理想情况下，它们应该完全一致，合二为一。
In ideal world, they are, like, 100% sort of aligned as one.
但商业驱动的工作，很多是跟机构沟通，了解他们的具体需求，不管是业务上的还是法律上的，然后基本上把这些需求转化为技术限制和科学上的要求。
But the business driven work, a lot of it is talking to institutions and understanding their specific requirements, if it's business or legal, and then basically mapping that to technical constraints and and the science.
这有点像帮助他们，比如教育他们，或者做架构评审、概念验证，或者搭建生产环境等等。
It's sort of helping them in that in terms of, like, it is, educating them or doing architecture reviews or POCs or production environments and so on.
然后基于这些，我们会得到很多商业情报或者细节，比如一些很难公开讨论的具体细节。
Then based on that, we get, like, a lot of business intelligence or details, like, particular details that are hard to talk about.
我们把这些经验总结归纳，然后用来推出开源的基础组件，这样既能提升整个领域，也能让大家了解更多信息。
We take those and generalize that, and they use that to sort of push out open source building blocks that can sort of elevate the space and also inform people.
所以这跟我们之前在以太坊基金会做的工作是一脉相承的。
So it's kind of continuity in terms of the work we did at Ethereum Foundation.
具体形式可以是概念验证，比如解释一些约束条件以及怎么思考这些问题，也可以是写文章、介绍这个领域的现状、怎么实现这些特性，还有开源库、技术规范等等。
So that can take take the form of, like, POCs, like explaining, here are some examples of constraints and how you can think about it, like write ups, the subs of the space, like how how are you can get these properties, open source libraries, technical specifications, and so on.
我们认为这非常有价值，不仅对整个生态系统，而且对于日常沟通交流，还有吸引顶尖人才都很有帮助，因为开源这东西，做得再多也不嫌多。
So we think that's extremely valuable both for the ecosystem as a whole, but also in terms of, like, you know, just general communication and also attracting world class talent because open source is, like, something it's hard to do too much open source.
而且从根本上说，很多安全属性和隐私属性都需要开源解决方案。
And and, fundamentally, a lot of the security properties and private properties, they need open source solutions.
你不能光靠藏着掖着来保证安全。
Like, you can't just sort of hide things and do sort of security by security.
所以这些机构其实都要求有开放的规范，要求开源，这样才能信任这个系统。
So so all these institutions actually ask for open specifications and open source in order to be able to trust the system.
所以这对我们来说极其重要。
So that's something extremely important to us.
我们尽量在两者之间保持平衡，既在商业需求上非常务实，又在开源工作上坚持原则，以宽松许可等方式发布，让别人可以在此基础上继续开发。
We try to sort of keep a balance between the two, both sort of being very pragmatic in terms of business demand, but also very principled in terms of open source work and pushing it out with permissive licensing and so on so other people can build on on it.
对。
Yeah.
关于这一点，最后再补充一下，就是经常会有一些意想不到的副作用。
And and just one last thing on that is that oftentimes there's these, like, unintended side effects.
我们做的工作的一个好处是，最终会有营利性机构资助一些公共产品，这些产品对整个生态系统来说可能非常有益。
And one of the great things about kind of the work that we're doing is actually you end up having for profit institutions funding some of these public goods that can become great for the rest of the ecosystem.
所以你们是那种咨询开发公司吗？就是被机构雇佣并付费来构建技术解决方案的那种？
So are you guys a, like, a con consultant dev shop where you guys are hired and paid to build technical solutions for institutions?
还是说更接近像Uniswap或Aave那样的模式？你们试图在链上编写代码系统，为机构的工作流程注入隐私保护，同时构建一个大规模可扩展的结构，比如管理一个系统之类的？
Or or is it something a little bit closer to something like, I don't know, Uniswap or Aave where you are trying to build systems in code on chain that imbues institutions like workflows with privacy, but you're trying to build, like, a large scalable structure that, I don't know, like, governs over a system or something something like that.
所以这里有一个范围，你们可能只是私人付费的顾问，这种模式在投资方面有一种结果。
And so, like, there's a spectrum there where you it's just like you guys are just, like, you know, privately paid consultants and that has, like, one size, like, outcome in terms of investment.
或者是一个大规模可扩展的系统，当你们在和这些机构交流的时候。
Or there's, like, the massively scalable system where while you guys are talking to all these institutions.
你们是在了解整个行业的情况。
You're getting a view of the landscape.
你们开始了解需要什么了。
You are starting to get a picture of what's needed.
然后等你们准备好了，就可以去构建那种大规模、风险投资级别的成果，那其实就是你们打造的产品。
And then when you guys are ready, you guys are ready to build the massively scalable, like, venture sized outcome, and you're then that that is, like, a product that you guys build.
你们现在处于这个光谱的哪个位置？
Like, where are you guys in in that spectrum?
对。
Yeah.
我觉得这对我们来说非常明确。
I think this is really clear for us.
绝对是后者，基本上就是我们——哦，我们热爱产品。
It's definitely the latter, which is basically we oh, we love products.
比如，我上一家公司就是做产品的，我是首席技术官。
Like, I was a CTO of my last company building products.
奥斯卡一辈子都在做产品。
Oskar's been pro bringing products his entire life.
产品才是实现可扩展解决方案的途径。
Products are the way to go for, like, scalable kind of solutions.
但就像你说的，这是一个范围。
But like you said, it's a spectrum.
你需要做很多这种亲力亲为的理解，了解各种使用场景，有点像前部署工程师的模式，坐在交易台旁边，理解他们在做什么。
Like, you need to do a lot of that kind of hands on understanding of all the various use cases, taking a bit more of, like, a forward deployed engineer model, sitting down with them on the trading desk and understanding what they're doing.
但目标肯定是要把这些经验转化为可扩展的产品，基本上可以大规模推广。
But the goal definitely is to take some of these learnings and turn this into, like, scalable products that you can roll out in basically mass.
你在研究和验证这个领域以及获取信息方面进展如何？你觉得在形成最终要构建的产品方面，你有多完整？
How far along are you on the research and proving the landscape and gaining information side of things like how how complete do you feel in terms of informing a product that you will eventually build later?
还是说还有更多的研发要做？
Or is there still more like research and development to do?
正如我之前提到的，机构销售周期相当长。
As I mentioned before, like the institutional sales cycles are quite long.
所以这种事情其实慢慢来反而更有用，先多做几个概念验证和架构评审，然后再深入到一个或几个产品方向上去。
So it's the kind of thing where it it's actually quite useful to take your time a little bit in terms of actually doing multiple collaborations with POCs and architecture reviews before sort of going deeper into one or a few product bets.
我们现在有很多正在进行的合作，但要把这些合作真正推进下去也需要一些时间，然后才能看清楚。
So we have a lot of active collaborations, but it also takes a little bit of time to actually see those through and sort of see, okay.
到底哪个方向我们真正有竞争优势，值得加倍投入。
So what is the exact thing where we have a sort of competitive advantage and so on that makes sense to sort of go double down on?
对。
Yeah.
而且从这方面来看。
And to looking at to it.
对。
Yeah.
就像奥斯卡说的，我们其实已经有一些想法了，有些我觉得可能会带来颠覆性的改变，但这些想法还需要更多的验证，需要真正去搞清楚那些根本性的问题是否已经有了答案，而我们现在还没到那一步。
To Oskar's point, basically, we do have a couple of ideas already, like, some that I think could be absolutely quite game changing, but it requires more testing of the thesis, going in there and really understanding whether or not those fundamental questions that we have have been answered and we're not quite there yet.
顺便说一句，其实已经有一些像风险投资规模级别的业务例子了，比如私有的询价请求。我觉得Zama最近做了一些相关的事情，我个人认为那是一个巨大的市场，而且在他们做之前，我觉得没有多少人在那个规模上做这件事。还有其他类似的机会，将来也会出现。
And I will say by the way there's already examples of like venture scale type business for example private rfqs right I think Zama did something recently where I personally think that's a huge business and actually up until they did it I don't think there were many people that are doing it at that level of scale and there's other opportunities that are like that will stop.
我预测在未来二十四个月内，你会看到很多类似的企业冒出来。我之所以说二十四个月，是因为典型的机构合作通常至少需要十八个月。
I'll make a prediction over the next twenty four months you're going to see a whole number of businesses pop up that are like that and the reason why I say twenty four months is because a typical institutional engagement will take kinda at least eighteen months.
你看，你需要几个月的时间去接触他们、教育他们，再过几个月走采购流程，然后差不多要一年才能推出初始版本。
You like, it takes you a number of months to get to talk to them and educate them, a number of months to go through procurement, and then, like, almost a year to kinda get the initial version out.
现在机构对于真正上链、在去中心化的公共区块链上做事情的兴趣有多大？
What's the appetite these days for institutions to actually come on chain and do things do things in, like, the the decentralized public blockchain context.
显然，答案是有一部分。
And then, like, clearly, the answer is some.
但你们在交流的时候，是你们主动去找他们，试图说服他们上链吗？
But when you guys have conversations, is it a little bit more of, like, you guys are going to them and be and trying to, like, convince them to come on chain?
还是他们主动来找你们，说我们真的很想上链，但因为这些限制做不到？
Or are they coming to you and being like, we really wanna come on chain, but we can't because of these constraints?
你们需要做多少推销才能让人们上以太坊？
How much selling do you guys have to do to get people to come on Ethereum?
哦，这听起来不太好。
Oh, so this is sound terrible.
这确实很糟糕，但其实我根本不会推销。
It's terrible, but, actually, I'm a really bad salesman.
所以大部分
So most of
都是他们主动找上门的。
the people are coming inbound.
我不是最差的。
Like, I'm I'm not the worst.
我这么说，但我也不是最好的。
I'm actually saying this, but I'm not the greatest.
而且大部分需求都是主动找上门的。
And most of the demand has been inbound.
所以我觉得，首先，最棒的一点是，他们明白区块链的价值。
So I think for first of it's one thing that's amazing about that is that they understand the value of blockchains.
其次，我觉得这得归功于DeFi。
Secondly, think I gotta give credit to DeFi here.
他们能看到DeFi里发生的事情，这真的让他们非常感兴趣。
They can see what's happening in DeFi, that really, really interests them.
所以像Aave、Uniswap和Lido这些项目，他们想要这些，但他们希望以一种合规的方式来做。
So the things like Aave and Uniswap and Lido, they want those things, but they wanna do it in a way that they're compliant.
所以正如你所说，需求绝对巨大。
So to your point, like, the demand is absolutely massive.
真的非常大。
Like, it's huge.
而且他们在寻找的，某种程度上甚至可以归类为机构级DeFi。
And the thing that they're looking for is, in some ways, even kind of classify as institutional DeFi.
比如你会看到，各种组织和DeFi协议基本上都在做自己产品的分叉版本来实现这一点。
Like and you'll see, for example, various organizations and DeFi protocols are basically making forks of their products to do this.
但这规模巨大，而且正在到来。
But it's huge and it's coming.
你会发现，那些最早就开始关注区块链的人，直到最近，随着突破性的Clarity（希望很快推出）和Genius Act的出现，他们之前几乎是带着‘天哪，如果能做到就太棒了’的心态在看，然后闸门就开始打开了。
And what you'll find is that the ones that have been looking at blockchains for the longest time so up until recently with breakthrough Clarity, hopefully coming, and, like, Genius Act, they were looking at it with almost like oh my god this would be amazing if we could do it and then the floodgates started opening up.
说实话，我们其实不怎么推销。
So we don't do much selling to be completely honest with you.
我们觉得很多需求基本上就是这些业务本身自带的。
We do think a lot of the demand is it's basically intrinsic to basically these businesses.
他们以前是做概念验证的。
They used to do proof of concepts.
他们以前有那种基础的创新团队，会去尝试一些新东西。
They used to have basic, like, innovation teams that would try things out.
但去年情况真的变了，有时候CEO会直接打电话给创新团队。
But last year, something really changed where sometimes a CEO would basically pick up the phone and talk to the innovation team.
然后我们就说，嘿。
We're like, hey.
你看。
Look.
你们已经干了五年了。
You guys have working for five years.
我们现在真的想开始做生意了。
We actually wanna do business now.
也许有一种发展路径是，我们有DeFi生态，就是以太坊的核心，像篝火一样的地方，比如Uniswap、Aave、稳定币，还有Pendle、Morpho这些。
Maybe one way that this unfolds is we we have the DeFi ecosystem, the main core, like, campfire of Ethereum, the Uniswaps, the Aves, the stablecoins, you know, the the Pendles, Morphos, like, that kind of stuff.
我把它叫做以太坊的中心。
Like, the I'll call it the center of Ethereum.
感觉所有的热度都在那里。
It really feels where all the heat is.
机构看到这些，会觉得，嗯，这挺有道理的。
Institutions And are looking at that and be like, well, that makes sense.
我想去那里玩。
Let I want to go play there.
首先，会有一个非常明显的平行生态，甚至可以说是孤立的生态，专门为机构打造，是私密的，符合他们的需求形式，因为直接整合到那些核心东西里可能太早、太激进了，我们需要先让一些东西在公开环境中运行。
First, there's going to be a a very distinct parallel, dare I say even siloed ecosystem that gets built out for institutions that is private and fits their form factor of needs because directly integrating into those things is probably, like, too too soon, too ambitious, and we need to do just we didn't have things going out in the wild first.
所以，在深度隐私的机构整合进入以太坊核心DeFi体系之前，会先有一个独立的、隔离的竞技场，一个单独的游乐场，一个单独的沙盒，让机构进来，在链上以私密的方式开展他们的业务逻辑。
And so before before there's, like, deep privacy institutional integration to kind of, like, the core DeFi apparatus of Ethereum, there's first going to be distinct siloed separate arena, separate playground, separate sandbox for institutions to come in and do their business logic on chain in a private manner.
然后他们会觉得，好吧。
And then they're going to see, like, okay.
这对我们来说挺管用的。
This is working out for us.
我喜欢我们现在做的事情。
I like what we're doing here.
所以，也许有人能帮我们建一个系统，把我们的业务合规地整合到Morpho里。
So and then maybe somebody can build us a system that integrates what we're doing into Morpho in a compliant way.
然后，这些系统会慢慢开始交织在一起，共同发展，而不是变成两个独立的以太坊版本。
And then and then later, these systems start to intertwine and grow a little bit more together rather than being two separate versions of Ethereum.
但这就是我看到的路径。
But that's kinda how I see the path playing out.
你们都在微微点头。
You guys are slightly nodding your heads.
所以，一开始是完全分开的，然后我们再想办法融合起来。
And so, like, first, it starts off completely separate, and then we figure out how to intertwine.
市场会想办法把这些东西融合起来的。
The market will figure out how to intertwine these things.
你们同意这种逻辑吗？我有点好奇……
Do you guys agree with that sort of, like, logical I I wonder
你是不是参加过我们的会议？因为那正是我预想的发展方向。
if you've been in been in our meetings or something because that's that's exactly how I think it's going on.
因为如果你跟他们聊过，你会发现他们觉得那是一条路径。
Because if you when you talk to them, you notice that they are they're like that is like a path.
对吧？
Right?
而且有些人走得比较远，有些人非常成熟，已经在考虑这个问题了。
And they are some are further along, and some are extremely sophisticated, and they're already thinking about this.
比如，他们深入思考如何与DeFi的这些议题整合。
Like, they have their thinking deeply about, like, how do we integrate with these issues of DeFi?
这如何与所有其他东西组合在一起？
How does this compose with all of everything else?
所以这是自然而然在发生的，而且我们看到那些更成熟的参与者已经开始为此做准备了。
So that's naturally happening, and that's something that we see the more sophisticated actors are already starting to plan for.
但他们还是需要学习。
But it they sort of need to learn.
对吧？
Right?
因为这是一个新系统。
Because it's a new system.
这是一个新世界。
It's a new world.
他们需要在思维方式上有所提升。
They need to sort of level up in terms of their thinking.
而且很多工作其实也是翻译工作，因为很多这些公司已经存在了大概一百年左右，他们都有合规官。
And, like, a lot of it is also, like, translation work because a lot of these companies have been around for, like, a hundred a hundred years or something like that, and they have a compliance officer.
而且他们运作的法律框架是为旧世界制定的。
And and the legal framework they're operating under was written for for for the old world.
所以所有这些都需要更新，这跟政策工作以及如何将其映射到技术能力上密切相关。
So all of that needs to update, and that goes into, like, has everything to do with, like, policy work and, like, how do you even map this to technical capabilities?
而且这是一个持续数十年的转型，正在整个领域发生，并且会继续下去。
And that's, like, in a decades long transition that's happening all across the space, and it'll continue to happen.
这需要一段时间。
It will take take a while.
对吧？
Right?
但显然，有更聪明的资金或更成熟的资金。
But, obviously, there's sort of smarter money or more sophisticated money.
他们会试图稍微提前布局，抢占先机。
We'll sort of try to front end run that a little bit and sort of get ahead of things.
但至少我认为，事情会朝着这个方向发展。
But that's definitely how we've I think, at least, that things will help.
我的意思是，
I mean,
我和资产管理公司的人聊过。
I I've talked to asset managers.
我说的是那种传统资产管理公司，他们会来找我们说，嘿。
I'm talking about, like, traditional asset manager that that will come to us and say, hey.
你看。
Look.
我们想把产品放到链上，我们看到你们在做的事情，我们只需要想办法做到。我觉得有很多，尤其是那些更有远见的资产管理公司，他们确实确实有兴趣做这个。我几乎每隔一两周就会进行这样的对话。
We want to put these products on chain we can see what you guys are doing we just need to figure out a way to do it like there there is a lot of I think especially the more forward thinking asset managers and they are definitely definitely interested in doing this And I have this conversation almost every single, I would say, week or two.
人们会说，嘿。
Like, people are saying, hey.
我该怎么做？
How do I do this?
这会解锁什么？
What gets unlocked?
给我描绘一下这个前景。
Like, paint paint a picture for me.
我知道隐私很难，而且加密货币的进展，我觉得比以前交易模因币的时候要慢一些。
I know this I know privacy is hard, and crypto moves, I think, slower than we it did in the past when we were, you know, trading meme coins.
但给我描绘一下2033年的画面吧。
But paint a picture for me in, like, 2033.
也就是七年后。
So seven years.
你们已经完成了需要做的工作。
And you guys have done the job that you have needed to do.
机构的兴趣持续增长。
Institutions' appetite continues to increase.
给我描绘一下那个有机构和隐私的世界是什么样的。
Paint a picture for me of what that world were looks like with institutions and privacy.
在七年的时间框架内，雄心勃勃且乐观的情况是怎样的？
Like, what what's the ambitious optimistic case in, a seven year time frame?
我觉得你希望的是，对于绝大多数不是加密货币原生的人来说，它应该是无形的。
I think what you'd want it to be is that for the vast majority of people that are not crypto native, it should be invisible.
就像最好的技术一样，你看不到它们，但你能享受到它带来的便利。
Like the best technologies you don't see them but you get the affordances of it.
比如说，想象一下，我可以在不暴露身份的情况下交易美股，因为我有数字身份系统，你懂的。
For example, imagine I could trade US stocks without being The US without giving away my identity because I have digital you know I have like a DID system.
那太棒了，对吧？所以我觉得我们喜欢这样想：不仅是有数万亿美元的资产在链上，而且所有这些信息都是可见的，但我能享受到目前DeFi带来的所有好处。我觉得这就是我喜欢的方式。你可以访问世界上任何股票，访问任何这类资产，并且获得区块链的所有好处，基本上你可以进行转移，拥有你想要的东西。所以，是的，我觉得基本上这就是我们的看法。在七年内，绝大多数金融基础设施都会在区块链上，这是非常现实的。
Like that'd be amazing right so I think the way that we like to think about it is that not only is like basically trillions of dollars of assets on chain but beyond that like all this stuff is visible but I get the all the amazing benefits that we currently have with DeFi I think that's the way I like to think about it you know you could access any stocks in the world you could access any kind of these assets and you get all the benefits of a blockchain essentially you can do transferability you have like ownership of the things that you you want so yeah I think that's basically how we see it like in seven years it's very realistic that the vast majority of financial infrastructure is going to be on a blockchain.
这正在发生，所有最大的玩家都已经在做了。
It's happening right now, all the biggest players are already doing it.
希望这发生在以太坊上。
Hopefully that happens on Ethereum.
我们在加密货币和以太坊上非常非常喜欢的一些核心特性是透明性、可审计性和可验证性。
Some of the core properties that we really really like in crypto and on Ethereum is transparency, auditability, and verifiability.
回到早些时候，我记得我会和比特币爱好者争论闪电网络的采用。
Going back into some older days, I remember would I would debate with Bitcoiners about the adoption of Lightning Network.
然后他们会说，闪电通道是私密的。
And and then they would say, like, you you private like, Lightning channels are private.
你看不到交易量。
You can't see the volume.
闪电网络上其实有大量的交易在进行，但因为是私密的，所以你看不到。
There's actually insane amounts of volume going on on Lightning, but it's private, so you can't see it.
然后以太坊的人就说，你们在忽悠我们。
All And the Ethereum people are like, you guys are bullshitting us.
闪电网络就是个笑话产品。
Like, Lightning is a joke of a product.
就因为它是藏在私密状态通道后面，我们确实没法验证，但并不意味着那里什么都没有。
And just because it's hidden behind, you know, privates private state channels doesn't mean we can't we sure we can't verify it, but, like, I there's nothing going on back there.
所以我就拿这个当例子，说明一下，好吧。
And And so, like, I just use that as an anecdote of just saying, like, okay.
如果我们把资产转移之类的都做成私密的，把TVL和AUM也藏起来，那这些核心特性就没了，而这些特性正是让DeFi有趣、让人信任的地方，因为我们能检查一些DeFi系统的源代码。
Well, if you if we make things like asset transfers private and we hide TVL and AUM, like, that's also private and we remove some of these core properties that make DeFi interesting and, like, trusted in the sense that we under so we can inspect source some of some of our DeFi systems.
如果我们把所有东西都藏起来，我们怎么知道真的有事情在发生呢？
If we hide everything, how do we know anything is actually going on?
你会怎么回应这个问题？
How would you respond to that?
对。
Yeah.
所以我想问的一个问题是，我觉得有些人常常把隐私误解为隐藏。
So I think a question I'd have is, like, I think some people often miss mistake privacy to be meaning hidden.
我觉得隐私其实是关于谁在什么时候、以什么方式能看到什么。
I think privacy really is who can see what, when, and how.
比如说，我现在从银行账户转账，我自己能看到。
And, you know, for example, when I do a transfer of my bank account right now, I can see it.
收款人也能看到，但公众是看不到的。
The person that's receiving can see it, but, you know, the public can't see it.
这很好。
That's great.
这对我来说很好，这正是我想要的。
That's great for me, and that's what I'd like.
所以我的问题是，我觉得人们想要透明度，是为了建立一定程度的信任。
So the question I would have is, like, I think transparency, people want that so they can have a level of trust.
但如果你能在不看到别人细节的情况下获得信任，我觉得那其实是更好的产品，几乎是可选的。
But if you if you could get trust without having to see people's details, I think actually that's a better product where it's almost optional.
就像，你能获得所有同样的便利，但它是选择性披露的。所以我的问题是，戴夫，想象一下你可以验证任何你想验证的事情，比如某人是否在进行正确的交易，你知道，就是他们说的TVL超过某个数额。就像，这很好，但它仍然有点选择性，你不能看到所有东西。
Like, you can get all the same affordances that you have, but it's kind of selectively disclosed so my question to you Dave would be like imagine you could verify anything that you wanted to like whether someone's doing the right transactions it's you know it's it's like the right thing that they said the TBL is above a certain amount Like, it's like good, but it's still somewhat selective where you can't see everything.
那岂不是很好？
Wouldn't that be great?
是的，我想保留的可验证性和可审计性的事情包括交易量、资产市值，比如TVL。
Yeah, the things I would want to retain in verifiability and auditability is things like trading volume, and market cap of an assets like TVL.
所以当这些私人资产存入Morpho时，Morpho可以报告这些资产的管理规模，或者当资产在Uniswap或某种私人AMM上私下交易时。
And so when these private assets get deposited into morpho, morpho gets to like report the AUM of those assets in question and or when like, you know, assets are traded privacy privately across Uniswap or some sort of prey prop AMM.
活动的实际指标仍然是可报告的。
The actual metrics of the activity is still, like, reportable.
至于谁在交易这些资产，我真的不太关心。
And beyond, like, who's trading the assets, I I don't really care.
其实，举个例子，今天是8月7号星期五，有个以太坊大户在Uniswap主网上一次性砸了5500万美元进去，大家都说，哇，看这家伙。
And in fact, like, just as as an anecdote, like, today's Friday, August 7, there's, like, this Ethereum whale with $55,000,000 t whopping into, like, lit on the main Uniswap layer one, and everyone is like, oh, look at this guy.
然后价格就被这个人抢先了，因为我们看到5000万美元的稳定币在Uniswap上涌入这个代币，大家也都跟着买，想抢在这个大户前面。
It's like, then the price is front running this individual because we see $50,000,000 of stable coins t whopping into this token on Uniswap, and everyone's bought also buying to get ahead of this whale.
这感觉不太对劲，金融不应该这样运作。
Doesn't feel right in terms of this, like, that's not how finance should work.
还有一个例子，就是有人在Hyperliquid上盯着那些交易Robinhood meme币的人，他们发现有一个账户，交易历史显示他在Robinhood上线之前就精准交易了所有正确的meme币。
And, like, the the other example that's happening is, like, there are people are, like, looking at all of these traders on Hyperliquid with regards to like Robinhood meme coins, and they're seeing this one account with a trading history who traded all the correct meme coins ahead of Robinhood listing.
这种情况下，有可审计性确实很好，但你还是不应该能看到别人的交易、账户和所有交易历史。
In this case, it's actually really nice that we have the auditability, but still, like, you shouldn't be able to see people's trades and their and, like, accounts and all of their trading history.
完全透明这个特性挺有意思的，在加密推特上引发了很多争议，但这对机构来说根本就是个限制。
That the fact that that's fully transparent is, like, an interesting property, and it makes for a lot of drama on crypto Twitter, but, like, that's fundamentally a constraint for institutions.
但我还是想看交易量，还是想看交易的资产。
But I still wanna see the volumes, and I still wanna see the assets being traded.
除了去掉个人账户信息之外，还有很多其他东西要处理。
There's, like, a bunch of other stuff from removing of, like, you know, the individual accounts.
基本上，其他所有信息我都还是想看到并保留的。
There's bunch of basically, everything else I still want to see and retain.
所以，只要我能验证所有这些内容，那我们就能两全其美了。
And so, like, as long as I can verify all of that stuff, then then we can get the best of both worlds.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得你完全可以做到。
And I I would say you definitely can.
这两者并不矛盾，尤其是有了密码学和零知识证明这些技术，你完全可以实现。
Like, they're not contradictory because especially with, like, cryptography and synonymous proof and so on, you can get that.
你可以证明你关心的那些汇总指标。
You can sort of prove sort of these aggregate metrics that you care about.
所以这里没有矛盾。
So there's no contradiction there.
你完全可以设计一个系统，在你想要透明的地方保持透明，在你想要隐私的地方保持隐私。
Like, you can definitely have a system where you sort of get transparency around the things that you want to be transparent and then privacy over the things you wanna be private.
我觉得，像以太坊这种公有链，它的可编程性等等，其实也带来了很多好处。
That's, I think, a lot of also benefits of something like Ethereum public blockchain and programmability and so on.
这些特性你确实是可以实现的。
You can actually get these properties.
你可以通过设计系统的方式，做到两全其美。
You can design the system in such a way that you get the best of both worlds.
Bankless 的听众们，我们为你们打造了一样东西。
Bankless nation, we've built something for you.
隆重介绍 Bankless MCP。
Introducing the Bankless MCP.
ChatGPT 和 Claude 在很多事情上都很厉害，但如果你问它们一些超出加密基础知识的问题，比如协议机制、代币经济，或者上周加密圈发生了什么，它们的短板就会显现出来。
Chat GPT and Claude are great at a lot of things, but ask them anything beyond the basics of crypto about protocol mechanics, tokenomics, or just what happened last week in crypto, the gaps will start to show.
问题在于上下文。
The problem is context.
而 Bankless 这边，花了将近十年的时间，建立了可能是最深的加密数据档案之一。
Bankless, on the other hand, has spent almost a decade building one of the deepest archives of crypto data anywhere.
超过两千份播客文字稿、一万篇文章，还有无数与真正在建设这个行业的人的对话。
More than 2,000 podcast transcripts, 10,000 articles, and countless conversations with the people actually building this industry.
现在，我们把这些数据全部整理进了 Bankless MCP。
And now we've structured all of that data into the bankless MCP.
你可以把它连接到你的 Claude 或 ChatGPT，突然之间，你的 AI 就能回答你的加密货币问题，背后有整个 Bankless 档案库支持。
So you can go and connect it to your Claude or ChatGET, and suddenly your AI can answer your crypto queries with the entire bankless archive behind it.
而且每一篇新的 Bankless 文章或节目都会自动添加，所以信息会一直保持最新。
And every new bankless article or episode gets added automatically, so the context keeps staying up to date.
Bankless MCP 只对 Bankless 高级订阅用户开放。
The bankless MCP is exclusively available to bankless premium subscribers.
你可以去 bankless.com，升级到高级版，几分钟内就能连接 MCP，然后你给 AI 语言模型（不管用哪个）的加密货币查询，效果会好上一千倍。
So you can go to bankless.com, upgrade to premium, and connect the MCP in just a few minutes, and all of a sudden, your crypto queries to your AI LLM, whatever you use, will get a thousand times better.
所以去看看吧。
So go check it out.
节目说明里有链接。
There is a link in the show notes.
一旦你成为 Bankless 的付费会员，就可以加入 Bankless 的 Discord，然后告诉我你的使用感受。
And once you become a Bankless premium member, you can hop into the Bankless Discord and let me know how you like it.
有个激动人心的消息。
Some exciting news.
我们正在推出一档新播客，帮助大家理解加密货币周期，以及如何应对。
We are launching a new podcast to help people figure out the crypto cycle, how to navigate it.
我认识的最厉害的加密货币周期投资者，他叫 Michael Nato。
The best crypto cycle investor I know, his name is Michael Nato.
他运营着 DeFi REPORT。
He runs the DeFi REPORT.
就是这个人，在价格下跌 10% 之前给我发了卖出提醒。
This is the guy that sent me a sell alert before the ten '10 price drop happened.
他的周期分析一直非常精准。
His cycle analysis has been absolutely on point.
我已经关注他好几年了。
I've been following him for years.
今年我们开始每周录制播客节目。
And this year, we started recording weekly podcast episodes.
每一期我们都会聊他的投资组合、他持有什么、市场结构、入场目标、比特币和以太坊的公允价值，以及我们现在处于周期的哪个阶段。
Each one, we get into his portfolio, what he's holding, the market structure, entry targets, fair market value of Bitcoin and Ether, and where we are in the cycle.
每周三都会发布新一期。
There's new episodes that are released every Wednesday.
每期三十分钟。
They're thirty minutes.
内容很简短。
They're short.
但很精炼。
They're punchy.
我觉得这轮加密周期比大多数周期都更难把握，所以让我们一起应对吧。
I think this crypto cycle is harder to navigate than most, so let's do it together.
快去订阅这个播客吧。
Go subscribe to this podcast.
在您收听播客的任何平台搜索 DeFi 报告，无论是 YouTube、Apple、Spotify，还是在节目说明里找链接。
Search the DeFi report wherever you get your podcast, YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or find a link in the show notes.
现在有一期新节目在等着您。
There's a new episode waiting for you now.
我喜欢智能合约。
I love smart contracts.
谁能最大程度地帮您解决某些问题？
What can who can help you unblock you the most about certain things?
我觉得可能有两个方向。
I feel like maybe there's two directions here.
一个是更广泛的 DeFi 生态系统。
There's there's the broader DeFi ecosystem.
比如，我不太清楚具体是什么样，但像 Morpho 或 Uniswap 这样的。
So, like, I I don't know what this looks like, but, like, know, Morpho off a of a Uniswap.
也许他们能帮你们让这些系统的隐私保护更容易、更普及。
Maybe they can help you guys make privacy with those systems easier and more accessible.
你们有没有什么需要以太坊社区或者以太坊DeFi生态来帮忙的，好让工作更轻松？
Is there something that you guys need from, like, the Ethereum community or the Ethereum DeFi ecosystem to make your jobs easier?
然后还有另一面，就是以太坊基金会和以太坊协议本身。
And then also, the other side of the spectrum, the Ethereum foundation and the actual Ethereum protocol.
有没有什么EIP或者以太坊协议的升级，也能让你们的工作更轻松？
Are there, like, EIPs or upgrades to the actual Ethereum protocol that would also make your guys' life easier?
简单来说，以太坊怎么帮到你们？
Basically, how can Ethereum help you?
我可以先说说生态这块。
I can solve maybe the the ecosystem, ecosystem.
其实我们已经认识这个生态里的很多人了。
Like so we already know a lot of the folks in this ecosystem.
比如说，如果你是Morpho或者Aave的，我已经在跟其中一些人聊了。
But, like, for example, if you're Morpho, if you're Aave, I'm already talking to some of them already.
一定要来找我们聊，因为我们很希望能看看你们的产品，然后想办法把它们改一改，去适应一些非常特定、而且可能规模非常大的使用场景。
Like, definitely talk to us because we'd love to be able to, like, look at your products and see how we can kind of, like, basically modify them in ways that would be suitable for a very specific types of use cases that could be incredibly large.
所以对我来说，就是来找我们，跟我们聊聊。
So I think for me, it's like, come to us, talk to us.
你知道，我们一起来看看这些产品。
You know, let's let's look at the products.
看看我们能怎么合作。
Let's see what we can to work together.
对，这就是我唯一的要求。
And, yeah, just like that's the that's the one ask I would have.
来找我们，我们也很乐意跟你聊。
Like, come to us and we'd love to talk to you as well.
我们这里非常开放。
We're very open doors here.
来吧来吧来吧。
Like, come come come.
然后，其实还有一件事我想说的是，因为我们确实有公共产品，我们基本上每隔三四周就会发布一份报告。
And then no, actually, another thing I would like to say is that because we do have public goods like we we basically release a write up every three or four weeks.
如果你做出了很棒的工作，而且说实话这对你也有好处。
If you've done amazing work and I'll and honestly this is good for you as well.
为我们的开源代码库做贡献吧。
Contribute to our open source repo.
我现在就可以告诉你，关注它的银行数量相当多。
I will tell you right now the number of banks that look at it is pretty large.
所以如果你有产品，或者你做出了一些非常直观、很酷的东西，或者你有DeFi协议，来我们的代码库，贡献代码，如果你愿意，可以分叉，想怎么改就怎么改，但基本上就是贡献。
So if you have a product, you have a if you're, like, you you've made some of this really kinda quite intuitive or cool or you you got DeFi protocol, come to our repo, contribute, source, four k if you want, change it however you want, but basically contribute.
这对你会非常有利。
It's it's gonna be great for you.
我还想补充一点，我们和生态系统里的很多人聊过。
I would also add, like so we talked to, like, a lot of people in ecosystem and so on.
我觉得过去一两年我们看到的趋势是，人们对用户可能是什么样子的想法更加开放了。
Think one thing that we're sort of seeing the last year or two or so is that people are sort of being a little bit more open minded about, like, what the users might be like.
也许这在一定程度上是因为散户的动向、市场周期之类的，但我觉得这也是一个方面，试着对谁可能最受益于你的产品和协议保持开放的心态，并思考他们面临什么样的要求和限制。
And maybe this is partially because of sort of retail movements and and the cycles and whatnot, but I think that's another thing where try to sort of, yeah, be open minded about, like, what what who who might might best benefit from using your product and and protocols and so on, and think about what kind of requirements and constraints they are up and they are under.
所以我们试着把我们的隐私路线图做得更公开一些。
So that's something we try to sort of make a bit more public in terms of our privacy mark map.
但我们注意到一个很大的问题，而且我们也知道要消除这种恐惧，就是机构的需求和生态系统能提供的之间存在巨大的脱节。
But one thing we noticed a lot, and it's something we know to set the fear information is there's a massive, massive disconnect in terms of what the institutions are asking for and so forth ecosystem provides.
我们试着帮忙弥合这个差距，在两者之间建立反馈循环，但肯定还有很多工作要做，这需要整个生态系统的共同努力。
And we try to sort of help bridge those and sort of create a feedback loop between the two, but it's definitely a lot more work, that can be done, and this is like a ecosystem wide effort.
最后我还想补充一点，顺便说一句，这是奥斯卡提出的，我觉得我们经常扮演的角色就是‘董事会里的密码朋克’。
And one last thing I wanna add, and by the way, this is something that Oskar brought to the table, and I think the position that we often have is like Cypherpunks in the boardroom.
这真的很反直觉，因为这两类人通常是不会互相交流的。
Like, that's super counterintuitive because these are the two types of groups that normally don't talk to each other.
但我们想成为那座桥梁，把那些可能对人类有益的设计理念融入进去。
But what we'd like to be is, that bridge where those defaults that could be generally good for humanity have them built in.
但要做到这一点，唯一的方法就是进入那些做决策的会议室。
But the only way to do that is to get into the rooms that these decisions are made.
对。
Yeah.
有一件事让我特别乐观，就是我听了很多丹尼·瑞安从内部会议里带回来的报道。
One thing that made me very optimistic, I was hearing a lot of Danny Ryan's reporting from, like, inside the room.
而且丹尼·瑞安是个密码朋克，他却在跟银行家们对话。
And, like, Danny Ryan's a Cypherpunk, and he's talking to the banks.
他们说的其实是同一件事，只是用词不同。
And they're talking the same thing but with different words.
这有点像马蹄铁理论，丹尼说去中心化非常重要，而银行内部的人说我想去掉所有交易对手。
It's kinda like it's kinda like the horseshoe theory where, like, Danny is like decentralization is really important, and the the inside the bank is like, I wanna remove all my counterparties.
我们当时就觉得，这其实是一回事。
And we were like, these are the same things.
我觉得密码朋克和当权者的需求之间有很多可以互相促进的地方。
And I feel like there's a there's a lot of synergies with, you know, the powers that the needs of the powers that be of the world and, like, Cypherpunks.
而且这些力量正在汇聚、碰撞。
And, like, the these things are, like, coming together and, like, touching.
这就像是政治光谱或者某种光谱的两端，完全对立，但现在开始靠近了。
It's, like, completely opposite ends of the, like, the political spectrum or some sort of spectrum.
但是，他们想要的东西、渴望、需求以及他们正在构建的产品，实际上是一样的。
But, like, the the wants and desires and needs and products that they're building are actually synonymous.
你们也有同样的感受吗？
Is that your guys' experience as well?
我觉得是这样，而且你会发现，很多工具、人们关心的很多功能，作为个人使用的时候，其实非常相似，比如中心化业务、隐私、开源、安全等等。
I would say so, and I would say it's, you have a lot of the tools that you saw the same, a lot of the affordances that people care about, what as individuals is using, they're often very much the same in terms of central business and and privacy and open source and security and so on.
我认为以太坊的一个伟大之处在于，你可以同时容纳两种人，因为有些听众可能会非常怀疑，觉得我们不想碰那个。
And I think one of the great things about Ethereum is you can you can both have people who are like, because some people who listen to this, they might be extremely skeptical and like, oh, you know, we don't wanna touch that.
我们不想和这些人打交道。
We don't wanna talk to these guys.
你仍然可以保持这种态度，同时构建非常赛博朋克的系统，比如不需要KYC、完全匿名等等，这些都可以建立在以太坊之上，而且效果很好。
You can still have that and build systems that are, like, super cyberpunk, like, no KYC, a 100% anonymous, and all these things and build it on top of Ethereum, and and that works great.
但你也可以构建其他类似的系统，只是它们可能在不同的约束下设计，比如某个公司运营所依据的法律框架。
And but you can also build these other systems that sort of have similar properties, but may be designed under different constraints, like, for example, the legal framework that a specific company is operating under.
我想说的是，我觉得人们可能因为某些机构所受的监管而对他们过于苛刻。
And I wanted to say that, like, I think people might job some institutions quite harshly because of the regulation they're operating under.
但如果你跟他们聊，很多人其实在做监管套利，而且他们也是在像个人一样的环境里运作。
But if you talk to them, a lot of them, they do things like regulatory arbitrage, and they they also they they operating in an environment just like any individual.
就像个人可能会说，哦，我买杯咖啡不会用私人支付，因为对我来说不值得。
Like, any individual might be like, oh, I'm not gonna do a private payment when I buy for a cup of coffee because it's not worth it for me.
机构也一样，他们会说，这个合同，我要在这个司法管辖区做，因为那里能给我想要的东西。
The same way an institution is like, well, this contract, I'm gonna do it in this legislation this jurisdiction because that's sort of where I get the properties I care about.
所以如果你从更高的层面来看，其实差别不大。
So it's not that different if you if you think about it from, like, a higher level.
只是在不同环境里运作的问题，如果你能给他们需要的，他们就会满意。
It's just a matter of, like, operating in different environments, and and if you can give them what they what they need, then they're happy.
Mo，Oskar，你们在做的是了不起的工作。
Mo, Oskar, you guys are doing God's work.
谢谢你们所做的一切。
Thank you for doing what you're doing.
祝你们一切顺利。
I wish you guys the best.
遗憾的是，到了2026年，隐私仍然是个问题。
Privacy is still, unfortunately, in 2026, a problem.
这个领域在这方面还很欠缺，所以越多的人致力于解决这个问题、朝着解决方案努力，就越好。
It's something that the space is lacking, and so the more people working on this problem and building towards solutions, the better.
这可能是以太坊最大的突破点，至少我是这么认为的。
It's probably going to be the biggest unlock for Ethereum specifically that that I can think of.
那我就不耽误你们工作了，感谢你们来参加节目。
So I'll let you guys get back to work, and thanks for coming on the show.
嘿。
Hey.
谢谢，大卫。
Thanks, David.
感谢你邀请我们。
Thanks for having us.
Bankless H，你们懂的。
Bankless H, you guys know the deal.
加密货币有风险，但这就是我们在这里的原因。
Crypto is risky, but that's why we're here.
机构已经入场，所以我们要走得更远。
The institutions have landed, so we are going even further west.
这是一个前沿领域。
This is a frontier.
它不适合所有人，但我们很高兴你与我们同行在无银行之旅中。
It's not for everyone, but we are glad you are with us on the bankless journey.
非常感谢。
Thanks a lot.
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