以太坊最后一次重大升级：zkEVM | 安斯加·迪特里希斯

而你通常仍然需要做的，是去写入这些更新，对吧？

And then the thing that you normally still have to do is you have to go and still write the updates, right?

所以，你仍然需要维护以太坊的状态。

So, you still have the state of Ethereum.

因此，在验证完区块后，你仍然需要说：好的，这些值发生了变化。

So, after you verify the block, you still have to go and say, Okay, these values change.

所以，你必须去应用这些变更。

So, you have to go and apply that change.

第一，这不再处于关键路径上。

One, that's no longer in the critical path.

因此，你可以在完成验证之后再做这件事。

So, you can do that after you've already finished verification.

所以，如果你是一个验证者，你就可以立即投票。

So, if you're a validator, you can already vote.

你可以表示：这个区块是有效的。

You can say, Ah, this block was valid.

然后，我会实际应用更新。

And then afterwards, I go and actually apply the update.

那么，这个Uniswap池的当前价格是多少？

So, in terms of what is the current price of this Uniswap pool?

或者这个账户的余额是多少？

Or what's the balance of this account?

我可能会在确认区块有效之后，才将这些更新写入磁盘。

I might only go update this on disk after I already know that the block is valid.

所以，你自然会获得一个好处。

So, a natural benefit you get.

但如果你想更进一步，我们必须这么做，这正是我想说的。

But if you want to push it further, we have to and this is what I'm saying.

这是由ZKBN实现的一种变化，但它本身就是一个独立的改变。

Like, this is one of those changes that is enabled by ZKBN, but it's its own change.

这是无状态以太坊或部分有状态以太坊。

It's stateless Ethereum or partially stateful Ethereum.

那这意味着什么？

So, what does that mean?

好吧，与今天的情况不同，以太坊网络中的任何节点都必须拥有完整状态，而这是自由执行所不可避免的，对吧？

Well, instead of like today, any node in Ethereum network basically has to have the full state, and that's with free execution, that is unavoidable, right?

因为如果你想验证一个区块，你就必须再次加载所有这些数据。

Because if you want to verify a block, you have to go and, again, load all that data.

你必须在本地拥有所有这些数据。

You have to have it all locally.

一旦你有了ZK AVM，这就变得可选了，因为你实际上不需要本地数据来双重验证区块的有效性。

Once you have ZK AVM, that becomes optional because you don't actually need the data local to double check the validity of the block.

对吧？

Right?

所以，原则上，你可以把所有数据都丢弃。

So, what you can do is you can in principle, what you could do is you could throw away the entire data.

对吧？

Right?

所以，你基本上只需要保留这个根承诺，然后不断更新根承诺就可以了。

So, you can basically just you can only keep this root commitment, and you can just always update the root commitment, and that's it.

实际上，由于以太坊节点具有多种功能，它们还需要管理以太坊内存池，必须理解正在传输的交易的有效性，等等这些事情。

In practice, what you'd want is because Ethereum nodes have multiple functions, they also operate the Ethereum mempool, they have to understand validity of transactions in flight, all these kind of things.

你并不想完全无状态运行。

What you'd want to do is you don't want to run fully stateless.

你希望运行的是我们所说的部分无状态模式。

You want to run-in what we're calling partial statelessness.

例如，有一个名为VOPS的提案，即仅验证部分无状态。

So, for example, there's this proposal called VOPS, validity only partial statelessness.

这意味着你只保留状态的一个子集，这个子集可以通过多种不同的规则来定义。

So, it means you specifically have a subset of the state, and that can be defined by several different rules.

它可以是所有账户的余额，或者，比如说，如果你特别关注作为用户属于你的某些状态，就可以定义你感兴趣的状态。

It can be, say, the balances of all the accounts or it can be, I don't know, if you are specifically interested in some state that belongs to you as the user or something, define what state you're interested in.

基本上，现在你可以保留以太坊状态的一个子集，而由于ZKVM的存在，这完全是安全的，对吧？

Basically, now you can keep a subset of the Ethereum state, and that's totally safe because of ZKVM, right?

你只需要应用差异部分。

And you only have to apply the diff.

你只需要访问磁盘。

You only have to go to disk.

你只需要承担更新该子集的IO开销。

You only have to have the IO overhead of updating that subset.

所以，这是第二个要点。

So, that's the second, basically.

你有ZKVM用于计算。

You have ZKVM for compute.

现在你有了部分无状态性，以实现更优化的IO。

Now you have partial statusness for more optimized IO.

而且顺便说一下，还能控制你的磁盘大小。

And also, by the way, for keeping your disk size contained.

我们可能会在最后讨论状态增长，但简单来说，你不需要拥有巨大的磁盘。

We'll talk about state growth maybe towards the end, but basically, you know, so you don't have to have like a huge disk.

然后是第三个，也就是带宽。

And then it leaves the third one, which is bandwidth.

对吧？

Right?

那么，如何在使用ZK系统的同时，继续保持链的扩展性，而带宽需求却不变甚至降低呢？

And how you actually keep scaling the chain now with the ZK system while actually keeping bandwidth requirements the same or even reducing them?

嗯，这又是另一个独立的技巧。

Well, that's yet another separate trick.

这同样是由ZKVM实现的，但它是独立的。

That's also, again, enabled by ZKVM, but it's separate.

这意味着你不再需要下载完整的区块。

And that is you no longer actually need to download the full block.

这说得通。

And that makes sense.

对吧？

Right?

因为你获得了ZK证明。

Because you get the ZK proof.

你必须下载这个证明。

You have to download the proof.

而这个证明会告诉你：假设存在一个具有此哈希值的区块，当我应用该区块时，结果就是这样的。

And the proof tells you, hey, assuming there is a block with this hash or something, once I apply the block, this is the result.

这一点是经过验证的。

And that's proven.

所以，你只需要知道这个区块存在即可。

So, the only thing you need to know about the block is that it exists.

这有点微妙。

And that's a bit of a nuanced thing.

肯定有人创建了它。

Someone clearly must have created it.

否则，他们就无法生成这个ZK证明。

Otherwise, they could not have created the ZK proof.

那么，为什么你需要验证它确实存在呢？

So, why do you have to verify that it exists?

这是因为细节问题，否则你可能会隐瞒数据。

Well, that's for the Nuance reason that you can otherwise withhold the data.

这一点也是一样的。

That's also the same.

这就是为什么我们一开始甚至引入了数据块。

That's why, for example, we even have blobs in the first place.

实际上，对于L2来说，情况也是一样的。

Actually, for L2s, it's the same story.

你必须证明这个区块已经被发布，这样任何人都可以访问它，并获取其中应用的交易信息。

You have to You have to basically prove that the block was published so anyone can access it and anyone can get access to the transactions that were applied, basically.

但你可以做的，也就是说，这再次体现了与L2的协同效应——我们已经构建了专门的功能，能够高效地验证数据的存在，而无需下载全部数据。

But what you can do is I mean, that's again where the synergy with the L2s it's just a beautiful story we've already built out specialized functionality for verifying the existence of data very efficiently without downloading it all.

这被称为数据可用性。

It's called data availability.

这被称为 blobs。

It's called blobs.

对吧？

Right?

所以，我们要做的是，把以太坊区块拿过来，本质上自己成为一个rollup。

So, what we will do is we'll take the Ethereum blocks and we'll just basically become our own roll up in a sense.

我们将数据放入 blobs 中。

We're putting the data into the blobs.

这被称为 Block and Blobs，BIP。

It's called Block and Blobs, BIP.

有了这个，现在所有以太坊节点只需要采样即可。

And with that, now all Ethereum node has to do is just sample.

采样数据，我们正在不断优化这一过程，因为我们希望为我们的 L2 合作伙伴提供越来越多的数据。

Sample the data, and we are in the progress of making it more and more efficient because we want to provide more and more data for our L2 partners.

这自然也对我们自身有利，因为现在你可以拥有更大、更大的区块，同时将带宽占用保持在非常有限的范围内。

And that now naturally also benefits ourselves because now you can have more and more like bigger and bigger blocks while keeping the footprint in terms of bandwidth also very constrained.

所以你现在是对的。

So now you're right.

回到正题，我们有ZKVM、部分状态性，以及区块和区块数据可用性采样。

Coming back, we have ZKVM and we have partial statusness and we have block and blocks data availability sampling.

它们共同提升了带宽、IO和计算能力。

Together, they scale bandwidth, they scale IO, and they scale compute.

这就是你如何利用所有这些元素来扩展区块链的方式。

And that is how you basically use all of these elements to scale the blockchain.

然后还有一些细节需要注意。

And then there are some nuances.

你不可能免费获得一切。

You don't get everything for free.

要考虑状态增长。

Have state growth.

我们能谈谈必须单独应对的状态增长问题吗？

Can We talk about state growth that we have to separately address.

你还能高效地同步以太坊客户端。

And you have things like being able to efficiently sync an Ethereum client.

还有像高效运行RPC节点这样的功能，比如Infura正在做的那些事情。

There are things like being able to efficiently run an RPC node, you know, like what Infura is doing, these kind of things.

因此，扩展性还有更多方面，但核心观点是：你面临这三个限制，而ZK-AVM直接或间接地解决了所有这三个问题。

So there's more to scaling than this, but but the the core story is that you have these three constraints, and ZK AVM directly and indirectly addresses all three.

你逐一深入探讨了这三个方面。

You zoomed in on each one of those three.

而且，就像你刚才说的，你把这三个方面结合起来。

And, like, as you just said, you put those three together.

这就是区块链成为区块链的方式，我们提升了所有这三方面。

That's how a blockchain becomes a blockchain, and we improve all three of those things.

我想把视角拉远，专注于这个层面的优势。

I want to zoom out and really focus at that level of advantage.

当我们全面重构区块链如何在所有这三个方面实现其本质时，你其实已经提到过，以太坊正是利用自己的数据可用性来成为ZK滚包。

When we reconstruct how a blockchain becomes a blockchain on on all three comprehensively, the you said you really kinda said it when said Ethereum uses its own data availability to be a ZK roll up.

据我理解，当ZK EVM上线并全面运行、完全成熟并分叉进入以太坊后，以太坊一层将具备一个ZK链的性能，就像一个ZK Rollup。

As I understand it, the ZK EVM, when it is up and running and operational and, you know, fully fleshed out and forked into into Ethereum, the Ethereum layer one has the performance of a blockchain that is a ZK, that would like be a ZK roll up.

事实上，它甚至可能就是一个ZK Rollup，只不过它同时也是第一层本身。

In fact, it maybe even is a ZK roll up, it just also is the layer one itself.

因此，我们获得了所有Rollup的性能优势，实现了对所有内容的ZK化，从而解除限制，释放以太坊一层的潜力，而且我们已经具备了完成这一目标所需的数据可用性采样基础设施。

So we get all the performance benefits of roll ups, we get to ZK everything, which unlocks the brakes, undoes, takes off the brakes on the Ethereum layer one, and we already have the infrastructure needed with the data availability sampling for this to get done.

因此，从性能角度来看，以太坊一层——众所周知是一个计算缓慢、陈旧且昂贵的区块链——自我升级为具备ZK Rollup的性能特征。

And so from a performance perspective, the Ethereum layer one, which is known to be a slow antiquated, you know, expensive blockchain to do computation on, upgrades itself to have the performance properties of a ZK rollup.

我刚才说的这些，是正确的吗？

Is that a true statement that I just said?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这是对的。

I I think that's right.

而且我认为，理解为什么以太坊会这么慢，这一点非常重要。

And I think I think, like, just I think it's important to understand, like, why even does Ethereum like, why is Ethereum so slow?

举个例子，如果我们提出这个富有挑衅性的问题，其中一个非常关键的要素是：以太坊设计哲学的核心在于它始终不愿妥协的保证——即易于验证和可审计性。

Like, if we ask that provocative question, the one really important element is that core to Ethereum's design philosophy is this guarantee that Ethereum never wants to compromise on, which is easy verifiability and auditability.

因此，以太坊始终希望维持这样一个世界：任何以太坊用户都可以轻松地，如果他们愿意的话，验证或审计协议是否遵循了规则。

So, world that Ethereum always wants to be in is that any user of Ethereum can easily, if they want to, verify or audit that the protocol is following the rules.

那为什么这一点如此重要呢？

And why this is so important?

人们总是会说：但现实中，很多用户并不会这么做。

People are always like, Well, but in practice, many users don't do it.

是的，其他链确实如此。

And like other chains, yes.

比如，如果你想加入那些高性能链，实际上要运行一个全节点是非常非常困难的，因为这些链仅通过快速提升硬件要求来实现扩展。

Like, for example, if you're trying to join one of those high performance chains, it's actually really, really hard to run a full node for one of those chains that scale just by increasing hardware requirements rapidly.

不仅因为你需要一台高性能的机器，而且通常你甚至无法加入点对点网络，因为这些网络对性能要求太高，必须设置白名单来决定哪些节点有资格接入，否则网络就会过于脆弱，对吧？

Because not only is it that you need a heavy machine, but often you're not even allowed to join the peer to peer network because it's so performance sensitive that they have to have whitelists for who even is allowed, which nodes are even allowed into the network because otherwise they are just too brittle, right?

它们会立刻崩溃。

And they just immediately collapse.

这为什么重要？

Why does it matter?

因为我认为人们总是把权益证明想成这样：有验证者，他们投票决定链的当前状态。

Because I think people think about proof of stake always in this, well, there's validators and they vote on what's the current state of the chain.

在以太坊中，验证者基本上是由社区赋予链的当前规则。

In Ethereum, validators basically get handed the current rules of the chain by the community.

任何硬分叉本质上都是一个社会决策，即：这是一个社会治理行为。

And any hard fork is basically a social decision of, hey, it's a social governance act.

以太坊社区决定现在链有了新的规则。

The Ethereum community decides that now there are new rules to the chain.

而验证者只是投票决定：好吧，根据这些规则，我看到了哪些区块？

And the validators only vote on, like, okay, given those rules, like, which blocks did I see?

哪些区块是接下来的？

Which blocks follow?

没有任何个人决策能通过某个测试或定理来决定。

There's no individual decision that in a test or any theorem that makes.

他们只是观察链，并确认他们所看到的内容。

They just watch the chain and they just attest to what they see.

在其他权益证明链中，理论上应该是一样的，但实际发生的情况是，由于链上的任何非验证者用户都只是轻客户端，你无法直接参与链的运行，因此这些链上的几乎所有用户都不信任大多数验证者。

In other proof of stake chains, while in principle, that should be the same thing, what in practice happens is that because any non validator user of the chain is just a Lite client because you can't just participate in the chain, basically any user in those chains distrusts the majority of validators.

所以，实际上，这些验证者决定了链的规则，对吧？

So, in practice, those validators determine what the rules of the chain are, right?

就像一条不以可验证性为中心的链，验证者实际上控制着链的规则。

Like, a chain that does not center about verifiability, validators de facto control what the rules of the chain are.

如果大多数验证者希望运行一组不同的规则，他们就可以这么做。

If the majority of validators want to run a different set of rules, they can do that.

在理论上，情况并非如此。

In a theorem, that's not the case.

验证者不能接受或拒绝一个分叉。

Validators can't accept or reject a fork.

他们只能创建自己的分叉。

They can just make a fork of their own.

他们只是从社区那里接收规则，而最终的权力始终掌握在社区手中。

They just get handed the rules by the community, and the ultimate power always lies with the community.

对吧？

Right?

所以，这就是为什么可验证性和可审计性对以太坊如此核心。

So, like, that's that's why, like, verifiability, auditability is so core to Ethereum.

这也是为什么我们历史上一直对扩展持谨慎态度，因为那会危及这一特性。

And that's why we have been historically slow to embrace scaling because that would endanger that property.

而现在有了ZKVM，我们有了这种神奇的方式，能够兼得可验证性和高性能。

And now with ZKVM, have this magical way of getting the best of both worlds, getting the full verifiability and the full performance.

不过我要说，这一切有点过于非黑即白了。

Although I will say all of this is a bit too black and white.

实际上，到目前为止发生的情况是，比如，我本人并没有直接参与我们的ZKBN工作。

Actually, what's been happening so, for example, I'm not actually like I'm personally involved with our ZKBN work.

我们有专家。

We have experts.

我们有Justin，他之前多次参加过这个播客。

We have Justin, who has been on the podcast before many times.

我们有Kev，他在那里做出了极其出色的工作。

We have Kev, who's doing absolutely amazing work there.

那里有很多人全职投入这项工作。

Have many people there that full time work on this.

而我实际上更专注于短期的扩展方案。

And I'm actually focused much more on short term scaling.

因此，确实，在传统扩展方式下，你会遇到一个极限，否则就不得不接受这种根本性的权衡。

And so, while it is true that with traditional scaling, there's like a limit that you can reach, and otherwise, you have this fundamental trade if you can't escape.

以太坊历史上一直秉持着这样的思路：我们正在朝着最终目标前进，你知道，我们知道最终会采用零知识证明技术。

Ethereum historically has been very much in this mode of, well, we're working towards this eventual end state, you know, and we know we want to eventually do ZKs.

所以，我们会专注于这一点。

So, you know, we'll focus on that.

大约一年、一年半，或者两年前，我认为以太坊的思维模式已经发生了很大转变，开始说：看，我们现在正处于这样一个时刻。

And as of, like, say, a year, year and a half, two years ago, I think the mindset on Ethereum has shifted a lot towards saying, Look, we're now in this moment in time.

现实世界的采用已经到来。

Real world adoption is here.

它不再是我们在未来努力构建的东西了。

It's no longer this future thing that we're building towards.

我们现在就必须行动，而且这是一件非常重要的事情。

We have to now and it's a very nontrivial thing.

我们必须找到正确的平衡，在继续推进像实时ZKVM这样的曼哈顿式飞跃的同时，也要兼顾现实需求。

We have to find the right balance between still working on these Manhattan projectile type jumps, like real time ZKVM.

我真的同意你的看法。

I really I think I agree.

就像你所说的，我认为这可能是以太坊有史以来最重要的成就。

Like you said, I think it's the biggest thing Ethereum probably will ever have done.

但我们不能只是再等三年才等到它实现。

But we can't just wait for another three years for this to arrive.

我们现在就必须采取行动。

We have to do things now.

因此，这就是为什么我认为我们现在所面临的扩展问题正是一个完美的例子。

And so, this is why I think we're now scaling is this perfect example.

我们采用了一种非常出色的混合方案。

We have this really good hybrid approach.

我们从去年夏天开始推进。

We started last summer.

我们当时说，ZKVM 还需要三年才能实现。

We were saying ZKVM is three years out.

接下来，我想我们会进一步讨论具体上线的顺序安排。

We will, in a second, I think, talk about more the sequencing of the exact rollout.

但我们不想再等三年了，对吧？

But we don't want to wait three more years, right?

这正是旧版以太坊会采取的做法。

This is what the old Ethereum would have done.

而我们实际所做的，是制定了一套扩展计划，这是一个非常连续、平滑的过程。

What we're actually doing is we came up with scaling plan, and it's a very continuous, smooth function.

我们的目标基本上是遵循这样一个经验法则。

Our goal is basically we have this rule of thumb.

我们的目标是每年实现三倍的扩展。

We're saying our goal is 3x scaling every single year.

也就是说，每年将以太坊区块链的吞吐量提高大约三倍。

So, are increasing the throughput of the Ethereum blockchain by roughly 3x every year.

这更像是一种目标，一个雄心勃勃的声明。

This is more of like a goal, an ambitious statement.

我们并不确定每年都能实现这一目标，但我们至少看到了一条可行的路径。

It's not clear that every single year we'll be able to hit that, but we think we see a path at least.

这是一种可能实现的结果。

It's a possible outcome.

实际上，前三年的扩展将通过传统方式完成。

And in practice, the first three years of that scaling with traditional means.

从那时起，我们将平稳过渡到ZKVM范式。

And then that from that point on, basically, we have the smooth handover into the ZKVM paradigm.

所以这并不是非黑即白，只决定完全采用ZKVM。

So it's not all just black and white and determines only doing ZKVM.

实际上，我认为我们现在已经兼顾了两者的优势。

We're actually now I think I think we have the best of both worlds now.

在未来两到三年，我们会并行推进ZKVM，但同时仍在进行传统扩容。

We have, like, the next two, three years, we are we're doing this ZKVM in parallel, but we're still doing the traditional scaling.

然后我们再全面过渡到ZKVM范式。

And then we jump into the ZKVM paradigm.

这意味着，如果你是一个开发者，正在考虑在以太坊L1上构建应用，你就不必纠结于具体哪个硬分叉、确切的方案是什么。

And so that means if you're a builder and you're considering building on Ethereum L1, you have this, like instead of having to, like, exactly think, okay, one is this hard fork and what is the exact no.

你只需要说：每年提升3倍。

You can just say 3x every year.

你看看今天的吞吐量。

You look at the throughput today.

你可以非常简单地计算出：我需要多大的吞吐量？

You can and you can just, like, very simply calculate, like, you know, what throughput needs do I have?

L1是否是一个合适的选择？

Is the L1 a good fit or not?

这其实是一个非常简单的说法，但其底层包含这两个协同作用的要素。

It's it's it's a very simple story, but under the hood, it has this, like, these, like, two synergistic elements to it.

抱歉。

Sorry.

刚才的回答有点长。

Those long answer there.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我们的想法是，在多个方向上加速扩展，而不是等待ZK-EVM这个像曼哈顿计划一样的项目，你知道，ZK-EVM自以太坊创世以来就一直在路线图上。

Well, the idea is that we're pressing the gas on stealing scaling on multiple fronts, not waiting for the Manhattan project of the ZK EVM, which, you know, the ZK EVM has been in the Ethereum roadmap since Genesis, I think.

我们从理论上早就理解了将EVM转化为ZK算法的可能性。

Like, we've understood theoretically of the possibility of turning the EVM into a a a ZK algorithm.

而且，你知道，我们早在2015年就从理论上理解了这一点，现在是2026年，哦，原来这已经只是一个工程问题了，我们几乎走到了最后一步，它基本上就要实现了，与此同时，我们也在传统的扩展路径上同步推进。

And that, you know, we understood that theoretically back in 2015, now we're in 2026, and like, oh no, this is now, you know, just an engineering challenge and we're like in the last mile of this, and like it's basically almost here, and in the meantime, we are scaling on the more traditional front as well.

我想深入探讨一下ZK EVM扩展的定性特征。

I wanna get into the the qualitative nature of the scale of the ZK EVM.

所以，区块时间和区块大小是决定吞吐量的两个方式。

So with block times and block sizes, those are the two ways that you have throughput.

你得看区块有多大，以及它们多频繁地产生，你知道的。

You have how big is your block and how frequently do those come, you know.

你知道，高度乘以高度再乘以长度。

You know, height times height times length.

那么，我们能谈谈ZK EVM的扩展方式具体带来什么影响吗？

So can we talk about what that the nature of scaling with the ZK EVM does?

它能缩短区块时间吗？

Does it help lower block times?

它只是增大区块大小吗？

Does it just increase block size?

我希望Onsgar的区块既快又大。

I want Onsgar both fast and big blocks.

我喜欢区块又大又快。

I like my blocks big and fast.

如果我们能增加区块大小就好了，但区块时间对于交易和金融来说也同样至关重要。

It would be great if we could increase the size of blocks, but there is also very important element of just like block times is critically important for for trading and finance.

是的。

Yeah.

那么ZK EVM如何影响这两个因素呢？

So how does the ZK EVM impact both of these variables?

对。

Right.

要直接回答这个问题，ZK EVM确实不是万能解。

So to answer that question directly, ZK EVM, indeed, it's not a panacea.

它专门提升了吞吐量水平。

It specifically addresses the the the the throughput level.

因此，在相同的时间限制下，它让我们能够获得大得多的区块。

So it gives us much, much, much bigger blocks in the same kind of time constraints.

为了完全透明地说，它确实给时间安排带来了一点额外的压力，因为你多了一个步骤。

It's even, to be fully transparent, it a small extra strain on the timing just because you have one extra step.

对吧？

Right?

你必须在区块创建和区块验证之间加入一个证明步骤。

You have to have this proving step that's in between block creation and block verification.

你必须进行证明，但这只是一个微小的限制。

You have to have proving, But that's a minor constraint.

但它本身并不能降低延迟。

But it in itself does not give us lower latency.

这就是为什么你刚才说这是有史以来最大的变革时，我其实很想说：对我而言，这在区块链的执行层面确实是正确的，对吧？

And this is why when you said at the top, like it's the biggest ever change, I was actually tempted to say, well, to me, that's true on the execution side of the blockchain, right?

就像比特币一样，我们说过，它的共识机制是工作量证明；而在我们的系统中，则是权益证明。

Like same as Bitcoin, how we said there's the consensus mechanism, proof of work in that case, in our case, of stake.

然后是区块的实际处理，比如比特币交易、以太坊交易，对于这类额外的执行，ZKVM及相关改动才是未来五年最重要的核心。

And then there's the actual processing of the blocks, Bitcoin transaction, Ethereum transactions, For that kind the extra execution, for the transaction bits, the ZKVM and the related changes really are the major story for the next five years.

与此同时，我们也在积极制定共识层方面一个非常令人兴奋的路线图。

We, parallel, are also now putting together this really, really exciting roadmap on the consensus layer side.

而延迟问题，这完全是共识层的故事，对吧？

And the latency, that's all a consensus layer story, right?

因为区块链的脉搏正是在这里决定的。

Because that's where basically the heartbeat of blockchain is determined.

所以，把这个过程单独分开，或许这为我们准备了一个独立的播客专题。

And so, have this separate process and you should probably you know, this is maybe setting us up for a separate podcast episode.

你应该请一位专门研究这类工作或更广泛生态系统的人来聊聊，因为我觉得我们在这一块有一条非常令人兴奋的路线图，能让我们实现更快的最终性。

You should bring someone on that's specifically focusing on that type of work at the end or the broad ecosystem because I think we have this really exciting roadmap there that's getting us to a much faster finality.

目前，以太坊的最终性需要两个周期。

So, right now, finality in Ethereum takes two epochs.

平均而言是64个插槽，实际上甚至超过两个半周期。

That's 64 slots on average, two and a half epochs, actually, even.

所以这可是很长很长的时间。

So it's, like, long long amount of time.

我们正在将这个时间大幅缩短至单插槽最终性，甚至两插槽最终性。

We're bringing this down all the way to basically single slot finality, two slot finality.

这将减少好几个数量级。

Like, it's it's it's going to come down, like, orders of magnitude.

这真是太令人兴奋了。

So that's that's super exciting.

甚至在一个插槽内，我们也不再是十二秒，而是有一条路径能逐步将时间从十二秒缩短到八秒、六秒、四秒，快得多得多。

And then even within a single slot, instead of twelve seconds, we have a story there that's going to gradually get us down from twelve seconds to, I don't know, eight, six, four, much, much, much faster.

然后还有其他独立的工作方向，比如能否实现更快的包含保证？

And then there's separate work streams around, can you get even faster inclusion guarantees?

对吧？

Right?

这正是区块链实际推进的节奏，你也能由此获得关于交易结果的保证。

Like, so that's the heartbeat at which the chain actually progresses, and you get guarantees about that's the result of your transaction.

但原则上，你能否实现光速级别的确认，也就是交易被包含的往返时间确认？

But can you maybe get, in principle, like speed of light, you know, like how just round trip time confirmation that your transaction will be included.

对吧？

Right?

理想情况下，希望点一下按钮就行。

Like, ideally, want to click a button.

在我还没来得及意识到发生了什么（甚至在一百毫秒内），就已经收到确认了，我的交易已经被包含。

And before I can even like, you know, within the one hundred milliseconds it even takes me to realize something happened, boom, I have the confirmation, like, my trade will be included.

然后在大约四秒内，我就知道交易的价格了。

Then within, like, say, four seconds, I know at which price.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得，这正是我们理想中希望达到的世界。

Like, I think that's the world we'd ideally want to be in.

我们在这方面也有一个非常、非常令人兴奋的路线图，但它与ZK EVM是独立的路线图。

And we have a really, really exciting roadmap there as well, but it is a separate roadmap from ZK EVM.

好的。

Okay.

明白了。

Understood.

明白了。

Understood.

所以，ZK EVM 大幅增加了区块大小。

So the ZK EVM massively increases block sizes.

我不确定你能否给出具体数字。

I don't know if you can put numbers around that.

然后它略微增加了区块时间。

And then it adds a marginal increase in block times.

未来区块速度能再降低吗？

Can that block speed come down in the future?

或者，要怎样才能让区块时间变得更快？

Or what does it take for block times to get faster?

这是否是我们路线图中所追求的目标？

And is that something that we are aspiring to in the roadmap?

是的。

Yeah.

所以，这正是我刚才提到的。

So that's that's what I was was just talking about.

比如，我们确实正在追求这一点。

Like, we are aspiring to that.

这不仅仅是追求，而是已经确定的。

That's that's not not just aspiring.

这看起来太过于模糊和乐观了。

That seems so indetermine indeterminate optimism.

我们实际上已经有了一个明确的计划，将会逐步落实。

We actually have a plan that will come down.

最早在今年年底之前就会实现。

It will come down as early as towards the end of this year.

这还不完全确定，但基本上，我们正在开始也将此列为优先事项，并且它将迅速成为主要优先事项。

That's not quite certain yet, but, basically, like, it's starting to make this a priority as well, and it will rapidly then become a major priority.

所以，也许我之前不确定的部分是，区块确认速度不一定能大幅降低，但交易确认速度会非常、非常快地提升，而你似乎在说，这正是人们真正想要的。

So maybe maybe the part that I wasn't sure of is, like, maybe the block speeds don't necessarily come down, but transaction assurances come down very, very fast, and you're kinda saying, well, that's what people want anyways.

对吗？

Is that correct?

嗯，基本上你有三件事。

Well, it's it's basically you have three things.

一是交易包含确认的时间，二是下一个区块的实际生成时间，三是最终确认的时间。

You have the the time to inclusion confirmation, you have the the actual time to the next block, and you have the time to finality.

这三者都会缩短。

All three of these will come down.

区块链的心跳——即下一个区块的生成时间——最终可能会从十二秒减少到四秒左右，大约降低到三分之一。

The the heartbeat of the chain, the time to next block, will actually be the one that's only going to come down maybe by a factor of three, something like that, from twelve seconds, maybe to four seconds eventually.

我们或许还能更低，但我不会轻易承诺这一点。

Maybe we can go lower, but I don't wouldn't necessarily wanna promise this.

我认为另外两个才是更令人兴奋的。

I think the other two are actually the more exciting ones.

最终确认时间会大幅缩短，而包含时间则仍处于探索阶段，但也会大幅缩短。

Finality will come down massively, and and time to inclusion, that's a bit more of an exploratory process still, but that also will come down massively.

所以我觉得，基本上，是的。

So I think I think basically, like yeah.

但区块时间也会缩短。

But but block times as well will come down.

但这些都不会通过ZKVM实现，尽管它将是集成系统的一部分。

But none of this will be through ZKVM, although, of course, it will be part of an integrated system.

对。

Right.

好的。

Okay.

明白了。

Understood.

好的。

Okay.

所以你的意思是，以太坊在整体上加速的方式有很多，而‘加速’本身在不同层面有不同的含义，你刚刚就详细讲了这些；至少从用户体验的角度来看，我们已经有办法让用户感受到近乎即时的速度。

So you're saying there's a a variety of ways in which Ethereum speeds up broadly, and then there's, like, and zooming into what speeding up means, you know, has nuances, which you just went into, and as at least when it comes from a user experience perspective, we have ways of providing essentially instant speeds from the perspective of a user.

对。

Right.

好的。

Okay.

我们来谈谈 ZK EVM 的推出计划。

Let's talk about the the rollout plan for the ZK EVM.

我们目前处于一个没有 ZK EVM 的以太坊阶段。

We are in phase of Ethereum where there is no ZK EVM.

未来，我们将进入一个全部采用 ZK EVM 的阶段，但据我理解，这并不是一个突然发生的转折点。

In the future, we will be a phase of Ethereum where it is all ZK EVM, but it is not an acute moment as I understand it.

我们该如何从 A 阶段过渡到 B 阶段？

How do we go from a to b?

这个路线图是什么样的？

What does that what does that roadmap look like?

当然，因为这是一个多年的过程，这是典型的。

Of course, because this is, a multiyear process, it's it's as typical.

比如在未来十二个月内，会有非常具体的步骤。

There's, like, very concrete steps as, say, for the next twelve months.

当你展望更远的未来时，我只能指出这是当前的计划。

And then as you go further further into the future, I can more point out that's the current plan.

这些可能是开放性问题。

These are maybe the open questions.

这些是方向。

These are the directions.

对吧？

Right?

事情总是这样运作的。

So that's how these things always work.

正如我之前在播客开头提到的，有趣的是，这不仅仅是一次性的硬分叉。

The interesting thing, as I said, top of a podcast, is that it's not just a one time hard fork.

确实会有一场一次性硬分叉，那就是最终从可选的ZKVM开始切换——这些ZKVM供那些希望使用证明而非重新执行的以太坊节点使用。

There will be a one time hard fork, and that is about the eventual switch from what will come first, which is optional ZKVMs for for those valid or those nodes in the Ethereum network that want to consume proofs instead of re executing.

然后在某个时刻，我们会说：好吧，现在以太坊完全基于证明运行了。

Then at some point, there will be this moment in time where we say, okay, now Ethereum just runs on proofs.

当然，如果你愿意，仍然可以选择以重新执行模式运行节点。

Of course, you can still run a node optionally in in in re execution mode if you want to.

但默认情况下，网络现在保证始终存在证明。

But by default, like, the network now guarantees that there will always be proofs, basically.

而当你真正获得扫描收益的时候，就是从强制使用证明的这个转折点开始。

And then from this point where where this where the switch to mandatory proofs is is when you really get the scanning gains.

因为在此之前，你并没有强制任何人必须这么做。

Because before then, you're basically not yet mandating that anyone.

对吧？

Right?

所以，你仍然可以运行一个完整的重新执行节点，而且

So, like, you're you're still allowed to run a full re execution node, and

你可以选择慢速运行，网络还是会接纳你。

You're allowed to be slow, and the network will hear you.

没错。

Exactly.

之后，如果你想运行一个重新执行节点，那现在就变成了一种需要专用硬件的特殊角色。

And after that, it's like, okay, if you want to be a re execution node, that's a special purpose role now that requires special purpose hardware.

当然，这在内部是一个庞大的工程。

Of course, that's internally, it is a big project.

比如，我们如何确保在速度大幅提升的情况下，仍然能高效地运行RPC节点，对吧？

Like, how how do we make sure that if we run at much faster speeds that you can still run an RPC node in a performant way, right?

所以，这是一项我们正在推进的独立工作。

So, like, this is a separate work stream that we're working on.

但就普通验证者，以及那些根本不是验证者的普通全节点而言，到那时，他们默认都会切换到ZK。

But in terms of both typical validator even and the typical full node out there that's not even a validator, those people basically by default will all at that point then switch over to ZK.

现在，正如我之前所说，这属于可选证明的阶段。

Now, again, as I was saying before, then is this phase of optional proofs.

所以，这个阶段还没有开始。

So, has not started yet.

目前，我们还处于概念验证阶段。

Right now, we're in the proof of concept phase.

我想Justin在布宜诺斯艾利斯展示了这个概念验证，他说：看，我的验证节点原则上已经可以在ZK上运行了。

So, I think Justin presented in Buenos Aires this proof of concept of, hey, see, my validator can in principle already run on ZK.

但目前还不能说，作为验证节点，你今天就能使用这个功能。

But that's not yet like if you're a validator, you can't use this yet today.

对吧？

Right?

但我们的想法是，很快——比如在未来十二个月左右——我们将把这个功能推向一个初步可用的生产状态，届时我们会明确给出关于系统安全性的具体置信水平等指导信息，对吧？

But the idea is that very soon, meaning within, say, the next twelve months or so, we are starting to put this out there in an early production ready state where the idea is that will, of course, will give very quick guidance of like, this is the specific Nuance level of confidence we have yet in the security of the system, all these kind of things, right?

比如，那时我们还不能让网络的大多数节点都运行在这个系统上，对吧？

And, for example, at that point, we could not yet have the majority of network run on this yet, right?

因为，如果它出了什么bug或者其他问题，你仍然非常希望所有主要验证节点的骨干都运行在这个系统上。

Because, like, if there is some bug with it or something, you very much still want to have the backbone of all the major validators run on this.

但如果你只是一个全节点，只是为了兴趣，或者你是在一台性能很弱的机器上运行验证节点。

But if you are just a full node, just for hobby purposes, or maybe you're a validator on a very weak machine.

在那个时候，你可能会倾向于直接切换过去。

You might be tempted to just, at that point, transition over.

所以，这将是第一步。

So, that will be the first step.

然后，我们还没怎么谈到的一点是，实际上我们需要满足许多技术要求，才能将大部分验证节点迁移到这个系统上。

And then one thing we haven't really touched on yet is that like well, I guess a little bit is that there's actually quite a few technical requirements that we need to hit before we can move the bulk of our validators over.

我可以简要介绍一下这些要求。

And I can briefly go over those.

所以，我们已经提到过的一个例子是区块和数据blob，这将在某个时候实现，届时我们会说：看，我们现在把区块直接放入数据中。

So, one we already touched on, for example, is the block in blobs, which will come at some point where we basically say, Look, we now put the the block into the the data.

因此，这其中还涉及采样方面的问题。

So there's also the sampling aspect to it.

如果你是一个重执行节点，你仍然需要下载全部数据。

If you are a re execution node, you still download all of it.

但如果你现在是一个ZK节点，就可以开始只采样数据了。

But if you now are a ZK node, you can start only sampling it.

对吧？

Right?

但这一点会在初始的可选证明上线之后才实现。

But this will come after the initial optional proofs rollout.

所以在那之前，验证者必须下载证明，同时也必须下载完整的区块存储。

So before then, a validator basically has to download the proof, but also has to download the full block store.

这意味着他们还无法获得任何带宽上的优势。

So it means they don't yet gain any bandwidth benefits.

他们只能获得I/O和计算方面的优势。

They only get the IO and the compute benefits.

所以基本上，我们需要先完成区块和数据blob的上线。

So basically, like we have the block and blobs that will have to come.

我们总体上需要一些正在开发中的网络改进。

We have to have, in general, networking improvements that are in the works.

我们需要重新定价，也就是说，必须确保以太坊链中特别难以进行零知识验证的部分稍微贵一些。

We have repricings, meaning we have to actually make sure that the parts of the Ethereum chain that are especially hard to ZK verify, we make a bit more expensive.

我们基本上是在重新平衡成本。

We basically rebalance the cost.

而对于强制证明的最关键技术依赖，也就是整个过渡过程，与状态性元素有关。

And then the most important technical dependency for mandatory proofs, the full transition basically, is it's related to the statusness element.

具体来说，我们需要将以太坊状态树转换为一种新格式。

And that's specifically that we need to transition the Ethereum state tree over to a new format.

长期关注的听众可能对这个神秘的‘工作树’概念有所耳闻。

Like, long term listeners might be familiar with this elusive worker tree idea.

对吧？

Right?

因此，默克尔树是早期以太坊的一个想法，即：我们目前使用的是默克尔树。

And so Merkle trees were this early Ethereum idea of like, hey, we currently have a Merkle tree.

所以，以太坊中的任何账户都是这个庞大树结构的一部分，每个区块都会更新整个树。

So, like, any account in Ethereum is part of this huge tree structure, and every block, the entire tree, is updated.

在根节点上，你拥有你的余额以及关于你账户的各个元素。

And at the roots, you have your balance and all these individual elements about your account.

最初的设想是将它转换为一种更高效的形式，这就是所谓的垂直树。

The original idea was let's transition this over to a more efficient form, and it's called vertical trees.

而垂直树的不幸之处在于，它们实际上从来都不是必需的。

And that was the unfortunate trait that vertical trees had is that they were just never really necessary.

它们在过去只是可有可无的功能，那时我们还不确定究竟要多激进地扩展链的规模。

They were always one of those nice to have features back then, back when we were not quite sure, like, how aggressive do we want to scale the chain?

状态增长会多快成为问题？

How quickly will state growth become a problem?

有些情况下，这会是一个更紧迫的话题，但因为我们从未走上那些路径，它始终处于紧迫性边缘，从未真正需要被实施。

There were some worlds in which it would have been a more urgent topic, but because we never went down those routes, it was always right beyond the edge of urgent enough to ever do.

所以我们最终从未推出过垂直树。

So, we never ended up shipping Virgo trees.

但好的是，我们现在已经有大量的前期工作了。

But the nice thing is we now already have a lot of prior work.

现在我们可以直接进入下一代密码学结构了。

Now we can actually go directly to the next generation of cryptographic structures here.

因此，从Verkle树转向一种基本上被称为统一二叉树的结构。

And so, of a Virgo tree, we're going to something that's basically called a unified binary tree.

它们有些相似。

And it's somewhat similar.

主要区别在于，Verkle树是一种非常宽的树，而二叉树则非常窄。

The main difference is that it has a very different kind of like of like a Virgo tree is a very wide tree, a binary tree is a very narrow tree.

最主要的区别是，二叉树使用了一种后量子安全的哈希函数，这种函数在证明时也非常高效。

And the main, I guess, simple set, the main difference is that the binary tree uses a post quantum secure hash function that is also very efficient to prove.

因此，它已经基本契合了以太坊即将进入的未来世界，而Verkle树则更像是一个孤立的组件，不太契合。

So it's already basically fitting into this future world that Ethereum is going to, whereas the Verkle trees were basically the standalone piece that doesn't quite fit.

但好的是，我们拥有大量的前期经验。

But the nice thing is we have a lot of prior expertise.

我们有吉勒姆，他一直是Verkle树的倡导者，但他非常沮丧，因为我们最终没有推出它。

We have Guillaume, who has been the champion of VIRGLE trees, and he's frustrated to no end that we never ended up shipping it.

现在他的时刻终于到来了。

And now his time has come.

所以，他一直非常兴奋。

So, like, he's been he's been very excited.

他现在已经在幕后积极推动这一二叉树升级，并与他的团队一起做得非常出色。

He's now working towards this binary tree upgrade behind the scenes already and doing an amazing job there with his team.

因此，在未来两年里，我认为以太坊最大的个人故事就是这次向二叉树的升级。

And so, actually, over the next two years, I would say the biggest kind of individual story that we'll have in Ethereum will be this upgrade to binary trees.

所以，在接下来的几个月里，这可能会成为一个越来越重要的议题。

So, that will probably, over the coming months, start to become a bigger and bigger topic.

人们将开始听到关于它的消息。

People will start hearing about it.

而这将使节点能够实现非常高效的无状态操作或部分无状态操作。

And that will then enable very efficient stateless operations or partially stateless operations for nodes.

所以，总结一下，大约从一年后开始，我们将推出可选证明。

So, to recap, basically, starting a year or so from now, we will roll out optional proofs.

这些可选证明最初仅能立即用于压缩计算和部分减轻IO负载，但你仍需以有状态模式运行。

Those optional proofs will initially only be immediately effective for compressing computation and helping somewhat with IO load, but you still have to run-in stateful mode.

然后，我们将逐步把这些组件引入协议，以释放ZK AVM的全部潜力，同时并行加强ZK AVM的安全性，这样当我们用尽传统扩容手段时，这一切就显得格外完美。

Then we will, bit by bit, start bringing these pieces into the protocol that unlock the full potential of ZK AVM and, in parallel, keep hardening the ZK AVM security properties so that by the time we are running out of conventional scaling means, which is that's that's why all of this is so beautiful.

换句话说，我们大概还有三年的传统扩容空间，或者说还有两年半左右的传统扩容余地。

Like, we basically have exactly, like, three years of scaling or, like, two and a half more years of scaling ahead of us, of traditional scaling.

到那时，我们将能够无缝过渡到ZKDM。

And at that point, we will be ready to just seamlessly move over to ZKDM.

所以，一年后，推出可选证明。

So one year from now, optional proofs.

两年半左右后，差不多就是全面过渡到强制证明，之后我们将准备好所有组件，立即基于ZKBMs继续扩容。

Two and a half years from now ish, plus minus, this full transition to mandatory proofs, and then we'll have all the pieces ready to then immediately keep keep scaling based on ZKBMs after that.

所以，这就是整个后续发展的脉络，对吧。

So that's that's the the, like, the fallout Right.

这个

The

依赖链。

the the dependency chain.

据我理解，情况是这样的：一年后，我们将引入可选证明。

As I understand it, the the way that it happens is that in a year, we will introduce optional proofs.

全球那些热爱以太坊、热衷于 tinkering 以太坊、出于纯粹热情运行节点的以太坊爱好者，将开始使用这些可选的零知识证明。

The Ethereum enthusiasts of the world who just, you know, love Ethereum, tinker with Ethereum, run nodes or Ethereum out of pure passion, will start to do these optional ZK proofs.

他们将成为以太坊从传统区块链向零知识区块链转型的先驱。

They will be the pioneers of the transition of Ethereum to be a, you know, a classical blockchain transitioning into a ZK blockchain.

这些爱好者因为深爱以太坊而自愿运行这些可选功能，这将为你们这样的以太坊基金会研究人员提供大量真实生产环境中的数据。

And that will give, you know, Ethereum researchers like you, the the EF, a lot of data of what it looks like to be in production because of these enthusiasts that are running this optionally because they just, you know, love Ethereum so much.

这些数据将帮助你们获得所需的信息，以完成实现全量强制性零知识 EVM 分叉所需的前置升级。

That will give you guys the information you need to do the prerequisite upgrades that are needed to actually get a full mandatory ZK EVM fork.

正如你所提到的，这还将让我们深入了解零知识 EVM 的实际应用情况。

And as you alluded to, it'll also give us just insight into, you know, introduction use of the ZK EVM.

可能有一些漏洞。

Maybe there are bugs.

如果有漏洞，我们需要在将其设为强制性之前找到它们。

If there are bugs, we need to find them before we make them mandatory.

因此，不同的客户端会有各自版本的ZK EVM，我们会通过在生产环境中使用它们来对所有这些进行压力测试。

And so, you know, all the different clients will have their own version of the ZK EVM, and we'll be stress testing all of those by using them into into production.

基本上，会有一个完整的以太坊ZK EVM演示阶段，我认为你提到过，这个阶段将持续两到三年，直到我们用尽传统的扩展方案，届时我们将获得经过验证的数据和信息。

Basically, there's a whole era of demo Ethereum ZK EVM, and that that will take, I I think you said, you know, somewhere two to three years as we run out of classical scaling that will have we will have the hardened data and the information.

我们将完成必要的前期工作，以实现强制性的ZK EVM。

We will do the prerequisite work to unlock mandatory ZK EVM.

大约两年半到三年后，强制性的ZK EVM硬分叉将发生，届时以太坊将完成向ZK EVM区块链的转型。

Around two, you know, two and a half, three years from now, the mandatory ZK EVM hard fork will happen, and then Ethereum will make the transition to this is now a ZK EVM blockchain.

但这个故事还没有结束。

The story doesn't end there though.

强制性ZK EVM分叉之后会发生什么？

What happens after the mandatory ZK EVM fork?

这个故事在那之后会如何发展？

How does the story continue beyond that point?

顺便澄清一下，对于那些可能认为我们现在热情高涨地开始向任何想当实验对象的人发布可选证明的人。

And just by the way to clarify a little bit for, like, for people that maybe think, oh, we are now gung ho starting to release optional proofs for anyone who wants to be like an experimental guinea pig here.

我认为，当我们准备发布时，会明确说明这究竟是为了什么？

I think when we are ready to start releasing this, there will be very explicit guidance around what is this for?

它对于哪些使用场景具备怎样的生产级成熟度？

What kind of production grade readiness does this have for which use cases?

你可以想象，这更像是小数点后有多少个9，对吧？

I think you can imagine more like it's about how many nines after the comma, right?

如果零分钟绝对不能宕机，对吧？

If zero minute must never go down, right?

我们有100%的正常运行时间，不愿意冒这个风险。

We have 100% uptime and we're not willing to risk this.

因此，我们基本上愿意在这里采取额外的预防措施。

So, we're basically willing to take extra precaution there.

但重要的是，如果你在某个时候运行一个ZK验证节点，结果发现了一个bug之类的，对吧？

But importantly, if you're, for example, at some point running a ZK Validator and you actually days a bug or something, right?

最糟糕的情况也不会有人被惩罚，对吧？

The worse it happens, like no one will get sashed, right?

实际情况只是你会被短暂地从链上移除，然后自动切换回正常的重新执行模式。

Like what happens is just you're briefly kicked off the chain and then you're automatically flipping over back to normal re execution mode.

而最坏的情况下，如果我们已经处于这种部分状态的世界中，你可能需要先重新同步一部分状态。

And then worst case, if we're already in this partial status world, you might have to first resync some of the state.

对吧？

Right?

所以，最坏的情况是你离线几个小时，然后重新上线，回到链上。

So, worst case, you're offline for a couple hours, and then you're back online, back on the chain.

我们做这一切都非常谨慎，只是想澄清一下这一点。

None of this we do it very responsibly, just because, you know, just to clarify this.

很符合品牌定位。

On brand.

但是，是的。

But, yeah.

所以，基本上我认为，这些令人惊叹的ZK团队所谈论的生态系统，去年可以说是性能之年，实现了实时ZK ABM。

So, and basically, I think the way these, absolutely amazing ecosystem ZK teams are talking about this, I think last year was all about I would say it was the year of performance getting to real time ZK ABM.

今年是安全之年，目标是达到绝对加固的水平。

This year is the year of security getting to absolutely hardened.

还有一项安全措施，对吧？

There's also like this bit of security measure, right?

就是要达到我们对安全水平非常有信心的程度。

Like getting to a level where we are very confident in the security level.

然后明年，我认为将是ZK虚拟机实现生产化的一年。

Then next year, I think, will be the year of productionizing the ZK VMs.

再之后的一年，将是转向强制性的一年。

And then the year after will be the year of transition to mandatory.

所以，这基本上就是性能、安全、生产化，然后全面过渡。

So, that's basically the performance, security, production, and then full transition.

这就是我们对它的看法。

That's how we think about it.

一年一年来。

It's like one year at a time.

至于过渡之后会怎样，嗯，我认为正如我之前所说，展望得越远，未知的未知就越多。

In terms of what comes after the transition, well, it's just I think and that's why I was saying earlier, the further you go out, the more unknown unknowns there are.

到那时，我们将会拥有所有必要的要素。

It's just about saying at that point, we will have all of the ingredients.

比如，我们已经有了部分状态，有了区块和数据块，也有了可以用于扩展的ZKVM。

Like, you know, we have the partial statusness, we have the block and blobs, and we have the ZKVM to take advantage for scaling.

但我们并不认为，一旦接近目标，就会像一次性切换开关那样，立刻让系统快上一千倍。

But we don't expect that once we get closer, that it's like a one time switch and now we can run it a thousand times faster.

相反，我们现在保守地（引号为原话）预计每年提升三倍，因为我们预计仍会有一些遗留挑战需要解决，对吧？

Instead, we basically, like right now, conservatively, quote unquote, are projecting this three times per year because we expect that there will be individual remaining challenges we have to address, right?

也许我们需要重新设计节点同步的方式，或者重新调整RPC节点的运行方式，以确保在更高吞吐量下链仍然可用，对吧？

Maybe we have to restructure the way nodes sync, or maybe you have to restructure the way RPC nodes again operate so you're confident that the chain is still usable at higher rates, right?

所以，这表明虽然我们已经有了主要的架构要素，但仍然会有很多细节工作需要完成。

So, this is just expressing that while we have the main architectural ingredients, there will still be a lot of detailed work.

因此，我们预期不会一次性全部利用这些要素，而会是一个持续的过程。

And so, we expect, instead of making use of it all at once, it's going to be this continuous process.

而且，这个大约3倍的数字的好处在于，如果你说，每两年就能获得大约10倍、9倍、10倍的提升。

And again, the nice thing about this rough 3X number is if you just say, Look, every two years, you get a rough 10X, 9X, 10X.

所以，我们基本上认为，这样的发展路径可能能持续五到六年。

So, basically, we're thinking we have a path for maybe five or six years of this.

六年时间，每两年提升10倍，就意味着提升1000倍。

So, six years at 10x every two years means 1000x.

因此，这前三年我们按传统方式实现，接下来的三年则是Ezek AVM。

So, basically, the first three years of that we get traditionally, then the next three years so this is Ezek AVM.

所以，六年后，我们将大致达到去年起点的1000倍。

So, in six years, roughly 1000x of where we started last year.

我认为，这是否已经得到了保证呢？

That's, I think, again, is this guaranteed yet?

不，我们还没有完全确定，但我们看到了一条路径。

No, don't yet have we think we see a path.

我们看到了一条路径。

We think we see a path.

这是我们的目标。

That's our goal.

然后，当然，如果往科幻方向想，你可以考虑原生的滚动聚合。

And then, of course, beyond that, if you want to be more in sci fi world, now you can think about native roll ups.

所以，也许我们超越这一点的扩展方式，并非仅靠单一链。

So maybe the way we then keep scaling beyond that is not through just the single chain.

也许我们会回到这种多链同步组合的图表式架构。

You know, maybe then we are back to this kind of charting type setup of multiple chains synchronously composed.

是的。

Yeah.

我们还得走着瞧。

We'll have to see.

但这就是计划。

But that's that's the the plan.

如果你能用和交易加密货币相同的工具和速度来交易黄金、外汇和全球市场，会怎样？

What if you could trade gold, forex, and global markets with the same tools and speed that you use for crypto?

这正是 Bitget TradFi 所实现的功能。

That's exactly what Bitget TradFi unlocks.

在经历强劲的测试期需求后，包括单日黄金交易量超过一亿美元，Bitget TradFi 现已向所有用户开放。

After strong beta demand, including over a $100,000,000 in single day gold trading volume, Bitget TradFi is now live for all users.

在你现有的 Bitget 账户中，你可以交易涵盖外汇、贵金属、指数和商品的 79 种金融产品，所有交易均直接以 USDT 结算。

Inside of your existing Bitget account, you can trade 79 instruments across forex, precious metals, indices, and commodities, all settled directly in USDT.

无需切换平台，也无需法币兑换。

No platform switching and no fiat conversions.

这就是 Bitget 普适性交易所愿景的体现。

This is Bitget's universal exchange vision in action.

加密货币与传统金融并肩共存。

Crypto and traditional finance side by side.

你可以获得深厚的流动性、低滑点，以及最高500倍的杠杆，让你将加密货币的策略应用于宏观市场。

You get deep liquidity, low slippage, and leverage up to 500 x, letting you apply crypto strategies to macro markets.

对传统金融还不熟悉？

New to TradFi?

从黄金开始。

Start with gold.

黄金兑美元货币对流动性强，受宏观因素驱动，是加密货币与传统市场之间自然的桥梁。

The gold USD pair is liquid, macro driven, and a familiar natural bridge between crypto and traditional markets.

立即在 bitget.com 上交易黄金。

Try trading gold on Bitget now at bitget.com.

点击节目说明中的链接获取更多信息。

Click the link in the show notes for more information.

这不是财务建议。

This is not financial advice.

在加密货币领域，很少有人在公开预测顶部或底部时真正押上真金白银。

Few people in crypto put real skin in the game when they make public top or bottom calls.

DeFi报告就是其中之一。

The DeFi report is one of them.

在10月10日闪崩前一周，DeFi报告的迈克尔通过邮件向整个通讯订阅者宣布，他将大幅降低风险，将大部分加密资产仓位转为现金。

The week before the October 10 flash crash, Michael from the DeFi report emailed his entire newsletter saying he's going aggressively risk off and sold the majority of his book from crypto into cash.

那时以太坊价格约为4000美元，比特币价格为110。

This is when ETH was about $4,000 and Bitcoin was a 110.

迈克尔运营着DeFi报告——这是一个以数据、周期洞察、风险管理、透明度，最重要的是——真金白银投入为基础的行业领先研究平台。

Michael runs the DeFi report, an industry leading research platform built on data, cycle awareness, risk management, transparency, and most importantly, skin in the game.

我们在Bankless喜欢迈克尔。

We like Michael at Bankless.

我们欣赏他的分析，这也是为什么你每月大约能听到一次他在Bankless播客中出现。

We like his analysis, and that's why you hear him on the Bankless podcast about once a month.

DeFi报告正在为Bankless听众提供一个月的免费访问权限。

And the DeFi report is giving Bankless listeners one free month of access to the DeFi report.

因此，如果你正在寻找一些敏锐、以数据为驱动的分析，以便更明智地管理你的投资组合，你可以在DeFi报告专业版中了解迈克尔是如何预判顶部的，以及他接下来的动向。

So if you're looking for some sharp, data driven analysis to make better informed decisions around your portfolio, you can learn why and how Michael called the top and what he's doing next all in the DeFi report pro.

去看看吧。

Check it out.

简介中有链接。

There is a link in the show notes.

安扎尔，据我理解，客户端多样性在这里是个重要话题。

Anzgar, as I understand it, client diversity is a big topic here.

客户端多样性为何与ZK EVM相关？ZK EVM又如何影响它？

Why is client diversity relevant to the ZK EVM, and how does the ZK EVM impact it?

我的意思是，大家当然都清楚为什么客户端多样性对以太坊及其100%的正常运行时间如此关键，对吧？

So, I mean, of course, I think people will be familiar why client diversity is so core to Ethereum and to Ethereum's kind of 100% uptime, right?

客户端多样性带来了冗余优势。

Like, there's the redundancy factor you get from client diversity.

所以，这个问题之所以相关，是因为在这个新世界中，客户端及其多样性的本质发生了变化。

And so the reason why this is relevant is just that the nature of clients, the nature of client diversity changes in this world.

这是因为，如果我们回想起我之前解释的，ZK最有可能的中间目标是五种左右的层级。

And that is because, again, if we think back to how I explained how there's like this basically most likely risk five kind of intermediate target for ZK.

然后你基本上运行一个经过大幅修改的、但本质上仍是传统执行层客户端的程序，它会被编译成RISC-V代码。

And then you basically you just run a, of course, heavily modified, but basically like a traditional execution layer client that gets compiled to risk five.

然后你使用其中一个新型的ZK证明系统，对RISC-V代码的执行过程进行证明。

And then you take one of those new ZK proving systems that then take the RISC V code and prove execution over it.

对吧？

Right?

这意味着，如今以太坊的执行层节点实际上存在于ZK证明之中，这当然在概念上与以往大不相同。

So what that means is now basically the Ethereum execution layout nodes live inside of the ZK proofs, right, which is, of course, conceptually very different from what that used to be before.

因此，现在的节点架构实际上变得相当有趣。

And so what it means is that now the actual node architecture is actually quite interesting.

你基本上会运行它——不过这一点仍待确定。

You basically run and that is a little bit still TBD.

比如，你可能仍然运行着两个客户端的显式分离，即共识层客户端和执行层客户端，但执行层客户端的角色现在完全不同了。

Like, it might be that you're still running this explicit split of two clients, like the consensus layer client and the execution client, but the execution client's role is very different now.

它基本上只是验证你本地运行的那些证明，对吧？

It basically just verifies the proofs, the one that you run locally, right?

它只是验证证明，并做一些类似内存池网络、状态管理之类的事情。

It just verifies the proofs and does some maybe like mempool networking, that kind of stuff, statement management.

但在证明内部，是那个也源自执行器AI客户端的CK程序。

But inside of the proof lives the CK program that was also derived from an Executioner AI client.

所以，如果你思考现在客户端的角色，基本上核心问题是：这些证明内部的多样性如何？

So if you think about the roles of clients now, basically, it means that the main question is, like, what about the diversity within those proofs?

对吧？

Right?

因为我们熟悉的是外部系统，但这些证明内部的多样性又如何呢？

Because the outer system we are familiar with, but what about the diversity within those proofs?

所以好处是，原则上，你可以获得一种非常相似、高度并行的映射方式——你不仅仅只取一个执行客户端并将其编译为RISC-V。

And so the nice thing is that in principle, you kind of you get a very comparable, very parallel type of mapping where you can just, you know, you don't just take a single execution client and compile it into RISC V.

你取多个。

You take multiple.

所以，基本上，你可以采用现有的那些客户端，或者也包括一些专门为这种用例专门编写的客户端。

So, you know, basically you take kind of, you know, the existing ones you know, or like also there's the few ones that will be specially written for that use case.

你将所有这些都进行编译。

You compile all of those.

为了确保冗余是端到端的，而不仅仅是栈的前半部分，你还拥有多个这样的证明系统来处理RISC-V，因为这些系统也可能出现在栈的这一部分，对吧？

And then to make sure that the redundancy is full stack, not just the first half of the stack, you also have multiple of these proving systems that take RISC V because, of course, they could also be back in that part of the stack, right?

它们获取RISC-V并对其生成证明。

Like, they take the RISC V and prove over it.

所以，比如说，你每种各有五个，对吧？

So, you say you have, like, as an example, five of each, right?

你有五个可以编译成RISC-V的执行层，然后你还有五个不同的证明系统。

You have five execution layers that can be compiled into this risk five, and then you have five different proving systems.

你可以基本把这些配成对。

And what you can do is you can basically build pairs of those.

Justin有一个非常棒的想法，你甚至可以原则上对它们进行性能匹配。

So you can say and Justin has this really nice idea where you can even you could, in principle, even, like, say, performance match them.

也许最快的执行客户端与最慢的证明系统配对。

So maybe the fastest execution client is paired with the slowest proving system.

所以这些配对基本上相互平衡。

So you basically so the pairs kind of balance each other out.

但这只是一个想法。

But that's just an idea.

但关键是，你会得到这些组合，比如这个执行客户端搭配这个证明系统。

But, basically, the point is you you then have these these these these combinations of, like, okay, this execution client with this proving system.

最后，在这个五组的例子中，你会处在一个拥有五种不同证明的世界，它们都是冗余的。

And then in the end, basically, again, in this example of five, you'd be in a world again where you have like five different types of proofs that could all and they're all kind of redundant.

它们各自都是完全不同的全栈实现。

They all have different they're full stack different from each other.

这里普遍新颖的地方是，如今你只运行一个执行客户端，对吧？

The generally novel thing here is that today you run one execution client, right?

当然有多个，共识客户端也有多个，但你只会选择其中一个。

Like there's multiple, of course, and there's multiple consensus data clients, but you choose one of each.

在这个新世界中，你可以验证多个证明。

In this new world, what you can do is you can just verify multiple proofs.