EtherFi的下一幕：股票、贷款与全球银行 | Mike Silagadze

谢谢，大家听好了。

Thank you, listen, nation.

我们又把EtherFi的Mike Silagadze请回了播客。

We got Mike Silagadze from EtherFi back on the podcast.

Mike，欢迎再次来到节目。

Mike, welcome back to the show.

嘿。

Hey.

谢谢再次邀请我。

Thanks for having me on again.

所以我听说EtherFi那边好像有什么新动静。

So there is something brewing as I hear over in EtherFi, EtherFi land.

也许有些听众还没注意到EtherFi最近在忙什么。

Maybe for just listeners who haven't been paying attention to what's going on in EtherFi.

EtherFi确实是2024年兴起、一直延续到2025年的新银行革命的先驱。

EtherFi really pioneered the neobank whole revolution that started in 2024 and moved on into 2025.

我觉得它确实开启了整个新银行平台的先河。

Really kick started the whole neobank platform, I think.

首先，通过重新质押这一块，然后让人们能够在DeFi里做很多酷炫的事情，在EtherFi里持有资产，部署到DeFi中，还能进行消费，开始真正地冲击传统金融银行体系，让一些无银行的想法在消费者应用里得以实现。

First first, just with the whole restaking thing and then allowing people to do a lot of cool stuff in DeFi, hold assets in EtherFi, deploy them into DeFi, also spend them starting to, like, really chip away at the TradFi banking system and allow some of the bankless ideas to manifest into a consumer app.

据我听说，迈克，你们有第二幕要上演了。

As I hear it, Mike, you guys have a second act coming.

跟我说说。

Let me know.

给我讲讲EtherFi接下来要上演的第二幕是什么吧。

Tell me about this second act coming down the pike for EtherFi.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得这算是第三幕了吧。

I mean, I guess it's sort of like the third act.

对吧？

Right?

我们的第一个产品是收益层。

Our first product was the the yield layer.

所以这有点像，好吧，我们得先创造一个类似的东西，虽然这个类比不太完美。

So it's almost like, okay, we had to, like, create a version of this is not a perfect analogy.

我们得先做出一个类似国债的产品，然后在这个基础上再搭建其他用户期望从传统金融里得到的东西。

We had to create a version of t bills that allowed us to build on top of that all the other stuff that, you know, users come to expect from, you know, from a financial from TradFi.

所以质押是第一个收益层，然后是DeFi策略金库，我们实际上应该是第一个或者最早一批做协议自有金库的协议之一。

And so staking was the first yield layer, DeFi strategy vaults, we were actually, I think, the first or one of the first protocols to have protocol owned vaults.

现在这已经很常见了。

Now that's, like, pretty common.

但我们推出了我们的流动金库。

But we introduced our, you know, our liquid vault.

所以那就像是，好吧。

So that was kinda like, alright.

你有了收益层，然后你想把它部署到DeFi里去赚更高的回报，当然风险也更高。

You've got the yield layer, but then you wanna deploy it into DeFi to earn higher rewards, higher risk.

所以我们推出了这个产品。

So we introduced that.

接着我们围绕它推出了一款加密信用卡，这算是打造出了第一个去托管式加密新型银行的雏形。

And then we launched the the sort of the wrapper around that with the, you know, the crypto credit card that created the first, I guess, proto version of a non custodial crypto neobank.

如今，我想如果我们看看所有的加密卡项目，我们绝对是其中最大的去托管式平台。

And today, I mean, we're still the largest I think, yeah, if you look at all the crypto card programs, we're by far the largest non custodial one.

我认为，我们为用户提供了最一体化的综合体验，实现了我心目中DeFi的圣杯：真正让人们摆脱传统银行体系，实现资产自主保管，同时又不做任何妥协，依然能正常使用并融入传统金融系统，在享受DeFi和自主保管带来的优势的同时，无需牺牲便利性。

And I think that the the one that sort of creates the most integrated packaged experience for users that achieves what I what I think is sort of the holy grail of of DeFi, which is truly allowing people to get off of their traditional banking rails, to have self custody over their assets, but not make any sacrifices, but, you know, continue to be able to use you know, interact with the normal financial system while getting the benefits of of DeFi and, you know, in self custody.

所以这就是它的最初版本。

So so that was like the first version of it.

不过，那个最初的版本还是相当偏向加密圈的风格，我想这么说吧。

But but that first version was still very crypto forward, I guess.

我的意思是，使用这个产品时，你仍然需要懂很多加密货币的知识。

What I mean by that is you still needed to know a lot about crypto to use this this product.

光是看这个应用或者产品的呈现方式就能看出来。

Even just the the way the app, the the product was presented.

那会儿全是加密术语。

It was very crypto jargony.

所以对DeFi老手来说很好用，就是那些天天用DeFi、习惯往Aave里存钱的人。

And so it was great for DeFi natives, for people that, you know, day to day, you know, use DeFi, they're comfortable depositing into Aave or or whatever.

但对普通人来说太难用了。

Very difficult to use for normies.

很少有普通人能克服那些麻烦成功上手的。

Very few normies kind of broke through the pain and onboard.

所以我们现在发布的不只是下一代产品，更让我兴奋的是，它对普通人友好多了。

And so what we're releasing now is not only is it the next generation of that, but more excitingly, the reason I'm excited about it is that it is much more normie friendly.

也就是说，哪怕你对加密货币一无所知，也能轻松上手，享受所有好处，根本不需要了解底层技术。

So someone genuinely could not know anything about crypto and should be able to navigate it and get all the benefits without really having to have any familiarity with these sort of the underlying tech.

其次，它还能让人们做到传统金融机构做不到的事情。

And secondly, it actually allows people to do stuff that they would not be able to do with their traditional financial institution.

换句话说，它不只是复制以前的东西。

So in other words, it's not just like recreating what existed before.

它实际上是利用DeFi的力量，让你做到以前做不到的事情。

It's actually using the power of DeFi to let you do stuff that you, you know, you previously wouldn't wouldn't have been able to do.

我觉得，这就是加密货币普及的关键：第一，必须对普通人友好；第二，得有一个使用它的理由。

Which is I mean, that's how you get I think crypto adoption is A, it has to be normie friendly and B, there has to be like a why there.

对吧？

Right?

比如，我对我的大通银行账户挺满意的。

Like, I'm pretty happy with my Chase account.

为什么我需要用这个呢？

Why do I need to use this thing?

所以，希望现在我们能给大家提供这样的理由。

And so, hopefully, now we, you know, we have that for for people.

那具体是些什么呢？

What is all of that stuff?

有什么实质性的好处？

What's the meat on the bone?

你们在EtherFi产品套件里加了哪些酷功能？

What is the cool things that you guys are adding into the e EtherFi product suite?

对。

Yeah.

所以，有很多东西。

So there there's a bunch of things.

首先，我觉得目前的或者说之前的EtherFi的限制是，你只能持有很少几种特定的加密资产。

The first thing is, I guess, the current limitations or previous limitations of EtherFi is you could only hold us pretty small number of select crypto assets.

比如可以持有稳定币，像USDC、USDT这些。

Like, you could hold stablecoins, could hold USDC, USDT.

你也能持有ETH。

You called could hold ETH.

你也能持有比如封装版的比特币之类的，反正就是各类加密资产。

You could hold, like, you know, a rap version of of pipe and Bitcoin, a very crypto assets.

我们现在正在改变这一点，让你以后能持有代币化的股票。

We are now changing that to where you will now be able to hold tokenized stocks.

所以会有非常丰富的代币化股票。

So huge range of tokenized stocks.

你还能持有贵金属。

You'll be able to hold metals.

比如黄金、白银，还有几乎所有你想持有的代币。

So gold, silver, all that great stuff along with pretty much any token that you want.

基本上任何主流币种，只要你想持有了。

Any, like, any of the majors that you'd, you know, you'd wanna hold.

所以现在它不仅仅是一个普通的加密钱包，而是可以通过智能合约封装，让你能够持有更多传统金融领域的代币化资产。

So really is now becoming not just a general, you know, crypto wallet, but can, you know, wrapped in a smart contract to say, but you you can actually just hold any, you know, any of the more TradFi tokenized TradFi assets.

这真的很令人兴奋。

So that's pretty exciting.

首先，我想 Crypto NEAR Bank 是第一家允许人们享受同样好处、保持非托管特性的平台。

First, you know, first time I think Crypto NEAR Bank has allowed people to to do that same benefits, same non custodialness, you know, goodness.

我们要添加的第二项功能是集成 Aave V4 市场。

The second thing that we're we're adding is an Aave V4, an integrated Aave V4 market.

所以这意味着两件事。

So what that means is twofold.

第一，如果你选择参与，你存入的任何稳定币现在都能产生收益。

One, any any, you know, stables that you deposit now earn yield if you choose to to opt in.

现在你存入美元，就能自动获得两到三个百分点的利息，因为系统会自动帮你借出去。

So now you deposit your USD, you're just gonna be getting two or 3% interest on it because it'll just automatically be loaned out for you.

这比你在银行拿到的利率通常要高，而且你还可以根据整个投资组合的价值来贷款。

So that's a higher rate than you get from your bank typically and you can actually take out loans against your entire portfolio value.

基本上可以想象成一家银行，它会看你支票账户里有什么，加密钱包里有什么，还有你的证券账户里有什么，把这些都打包在一起，然后给你一个信用额度，你可以从这个Aave市场里以我认为非常有竞争力的利率借款。

So basically imagine a bank that looks at like what's in your checking account, what's in your crypto wallet, what's in your, you know, your brokerage account, package it all together and effectively give you a line of credit that you can now from this, you know, this Aave market that you can now borrow at I think what I think is gonna be a very competitive interest rate.

当然，因为这是一个DeFi市场，利率是动态的，但我认为它会比你在传统金融里能拿到的任何贷款都要好。

Obviously, it's dynamic because it's, you know, it's a it's a DeFi market, but I think it'll be better that it's certainly better than any loan you can get in in Tragify.

而且当你借出这笔钱后，你当然可以用它做任何事。

And then when you take out that loan, you could, of course, do anything wrong with it.

你可以花掉它。

You could spend it.

你可以循环操作。

You could loop.

也就是说，你可以把SPY这类标普500代币放进去，借一笔贷款，再买更多代币，做各种DeFi里能做的事情，但现在是跟传统金融资产一起操作，这太让人兴奋了。

In other words, you could, you know, put some SPY, like the S and P 500 tokens in there, take out a loan, buy some more tokens, do all this stuff that you do in DeFi, but now with with TradFi assets, which is super exciting.

另外一个大重点是，非常全面的法币通道，覆盖的网络非常广。

And then the other big thing is like super comprehensive fiat rails, very broad network support.

也就是说，现在你可以从Tron、Solana、Tempo或任何地方存入资金。

So in other words, now you'll be able to deposit from from Tron, from Solana, from Tempo, from whatever.

所以你可以从任何地方直接存入，而且我们大概会支持70种不同的货币。

So you'll be able to just deposit from from anywhere, and we're gonna support, I think, like, 70 different currencies.

基本上，无论是印度卢比、哥伦比亚比索，还是其他你想要的货币，你都能进出，而且手续费要么为零，要么是市场上最低的。

So, basically, you know, your Indian rupees, your Colombian pesos, anything you want, you'll be able to do in and out with, really, like, either no fees or lowest fees on the on the market.

所以你现在真的可以直接把你的工资存进去。

So now you can literally you can deposit your salary.

你会有一个实名账户，直接把工资存到EtherFi里。

You'll have a named account, deposit your salary into EtherFi.

钱会进入你的非托管账户，买入代币化股票、金属，申请贷款，基本上什么都能做，还能拿到信用卡，超棒的返现，所有你平时需要银行办的事都能办。

It goes into your non custodian account, buy your tokenized stocks, your metals, take out loans, basically do everything, get a credit card, great, great cashback, everything that you normally do need to do for the bank.

但现在你是全球公民，不再受制于某个特定的金融机构或政府体制。

But now you're a global citizen, you're not, you know, tied down to, you know, a particular financial institution or or, you know, government regime.

自我托管赢了，但可用性还是有问题。

Self custody won, but it still has a usability problem.

写在纸上的助记词仍然是单点故障。

A seed phrase on paper is still a single point of failure.

手机会丢，设备会坏，备份会消失。

Phones get lost, devices break, backups disappear.

BITKEY就是为这种现实而生的自我托管硬件钱包。

BITKEY is a self custodial hardware wallet built for that reality.

它采用2/3多重签名，密钥分别存放在你的手机、BITKEY硬件设备和BLOCK上。

It uses a two of three multisig with keys split across your phone, the BITKEY hardware device, and BLOCK.

没有任何一把单独的密钥能移动你的比特币，而且BLOCK永远无法单独移动它。

No single key can move your Bitcoin, and BLOCK can never move it alone.

没有助记词需要担心丢失或泄露。

There's no seed phrase to lose or expose.

而且如果你丢了手机、你的BitKey，或者两个都丢了，内置的恢复功能能帮你找回来。

And if you lose your phone, your BitKey, or both, built in recovery gives you a path back.

硬件屏幕还能让你在确认交易前核对一下收款地址。

The hardware screen also lets you verify the destination before approving a transaction.

这就是关键所在。

And that's the point.

更多的掌控，而不会因为一个失误就让一切陷入风险。

More control without one mistake putting everything at risk.

所以今天就下载BitKey，使用促销码bankless，享受10%的折扣。

So download BitKey today and use promo code bankless to get 10% off of your BitKey.

本期节目由BitKey赞助播出。

This episode has been sponsored by BitKey.

旅行奖励本来不该这么复杂。

Travel rewards have gotten way more complicated than they need to be.

你有点数会过期，有转点伙伴，有黑名单日期，但你还是会怀疑自己到底是不是真正得到了好交易。

You've got points that expire, transfer partners, blackout dates, and somehow you still end up wondering you actually got a good deal.

Coinbase的做法就简单多了。

Coinbase is taking a much simpler approach.

当您通过Coinbase ONE旅行门户使用您的Coinbase ONE卡预订航班、酒店、租车或度假屋时，合格旅行预订可获得5%的比特币返现。

When you book flights, hotels, rental cars, or vacation rentals through the Coinbase ONE travel portal using your Coinbase ONE CARD, you'll earn 5% in Bitcoin on eligible travel bookings.

比如订一张400美元的机票，你会赚回大约20美元的比特币。

Book a $400 flight, and you'll earn about $20 back in Bitcoin.

没有奖励积分表，没有转点伙伴，没有兑换门坎，就是你可以持有或交易的比特币。

No reward charts, no transfer partners, no redemption gains, just Bitcoin that you can hold or trade.

并且，您使用COINBASE ONE卡的其他所有消费，最高可获得4%的比特币返现。

And every other purchase on your COINBASE ONE CARD can earn up to 4% back in Bitcoin.

此外，新持卡人在开户后前30天内消费满100美元，还可获得50美元的比特币奖励。

Plus new cardholders earn a $50 Bitcoin bonus after spending a $100 in their first thirty days.

所以如果你是最近有出行计划，请查看节目说明中的链接，今天就能申请，而且不会影响你的信用评分。

So if you've got travel coming up, check out the link in the show notes and see if you're approved today with no impact on your credit score.

或者直接访问 coinbase.com/banklist。

Or just visit coinbase.com/banklist.

适用条款。

Terms apply.

更多信息请访问 coinbase.com/banklist。

That's coinbase.com/banklist for more information.

我想退一步谈谈这对以太坊意味着什么，以及为什么我认为 EtherFi 有点像以太坊整体发展轨迹中的金丝雀。

I wanna take a step back and talk about what this means for Ethereum and why I'm seeing EtherFi as a bit of a canary of where Ethereum as a whole is in its arc.

你为 EtherFi 解释的零代一二，从单一原语开始。

The the gen zero one two that you explained for EtherFi where you started with one primitive.

在 Bankless，我们非常喜欢我们的金钱动词。

And at Bankless, we really like our money verbs.

你开始的第一个原语是储蓄。

The first primitive that you started with is saving.

我们让你在以太币上获得收益，即收益层。

We allowed you to get yield on your ether, the yield layer.

你可以把它叫做债券层、储蓄层，或者储蓄原语。

You can call it like the the bond layer, the savings layer, the savings primitive.

这是EtherFi在LRT运动中真正开创的第一个货币动词。

That was the first money verb that EtherFi really pioneered with the whole like LRT movement.

它扩展了。

It expanded.

它进化了。

It evolved.

一个新的层出现在它上面，那就是消费。

A new layer came on top of that that is spending.

所以通过整合稳定币（一种来到以太坊的资产）和EtherFi卡，你可以在EtherFi应用中添加一个新的货币动词。

So with the integration of stable coins, an asset that came to Ethereum, and the EtherFi card, you could add a new money verb into the EtherFi app.

现在你也可以消费了。

Now you can also spend.

所以你可以储蓄，现在你可以消费。

So you can save, now you can spend.

我觉得到了第三代，随着 EtherFi 金融体验的这次新升级，又能想到另外两个跟钱相关的动词了。

And I think with this gen three, this new evolution of the EtherFi financial experience, you get to add a few more two more money verbs come to mind.

投资。

Invest.

你现在可以在 EtherFi App 里进行投资了。

You get to invest now inside of the EtherFi app.

你可以购买代币化股票、黄金，还可以加杠杆或者申请贷款。

Can buy tokenized stocks, you can buy gold, and then you can also margin or get a loan.

保证金，我觉得可能是保证金这个动词，随便怎么说吧。

Margin I think maybe maybe margins verb, whatever.

所以现在你也可以贷款了。

And so now you can also get a loan.

我们就是在EtherFi的金融体验里不断加入新的‘金钱动作’，打造那种类似新型银行加起来的综合体验。

And so we are adding on the money verbs into the EtherFi financial experience like the neobank plus experience.

为什么我觉得这很重要呢？我想可能有些加密领域的老手刚才听了会觉得，Mike，这有什么好激动的？

And why I think this is important, like, I think maybe crypto natives might have listened to heard you just now and be like, Mike, why is this exciting?

我已经能够拿到Aave贷款了。

I've already been able to get an Aave loan.

我已经能够购买代币化股票了。

I've already been able to buy tokenized stocks.

这不是给你用的。

It's not for you.

这是给世界上其他所有人的。

It's for the rest of the world.

这是给那些被困在非美国金融体系里，没有这些机会，需要一站式无缝体验的产品来帮助他们摆脱银行束缚的人们。

It's for everyone else who is still stuck inside their, like, non United States financial system that don't have these opportunities and need a bundled product, seamless bundled experience to come together in order to get them and break them free from their bank.

所以，当所有这些功能整合在一起时，对我来说，这充分展示了以太坊的各种底层组件已经一个接一个地成熟起来了。

And so with all of these things all being put together, it's illustrative to me of all the primitives of Ethereum that have grown up and become pretty mature one by one by one.

看起来，根据EtherFi的说法，以太坊上的代币化股票资产已经准备好上主网了，准备好部署到消费者应用里了，我们可以把它推广到全世界。

This seems that according to EtherFi, that the tokenized stock primitive on Ethereum is ready for main net, is ready for, like, deployment into a consumer app, and we can scale that out to the rest of the world.

不仅如此，保证金交易和贷款也一样，都准备好了。

And not only that, but also so is margins and and loans as well.

而且因为这一切都在以太坊上，以太坊就像一个超级应用，所以EtherFi这个新银行加很容易把以太坊的体验打包起来，卖给世界其他地方。

And all because all of this is in one place on Ethereum, like Ethereum is the super app, it's easy for EtherFi, the neobank plus to wrap up the Ethereum experience and sell it to the rest of the world.

所以我觉得，基于这个框架，我想把问题抛回给你，因为我觉得，如果听众只听你说，他们会想，哦，我们已经有Aave好多年了，Mike。

So I think I think with that framing, I wanna throw that back to you because I think, again, if a listener was just listening to you, it's like, oh, we've had Aave for years, Mike.

不，

It's like, no.

不，

No.

不，

No.

不，

No.

现在这是一个无缝统一的金融体验，被EtherFi打包起来，提供给世界其他地方。

This is now a seamless unified financial experience being like bundled up and being offered to the rest of the world by EtherFi.

我把问题抛回给你。

I'll throw I'll throw it back to you.

对。

Yeah.

我会这样描述它，我可能有点越界了，但你可以把它想象成第一个非赌博类的加密货币消费应用。

I the way I would describe it and I'm I'm probably overstepping a little bit here, but like, think of it as like the first non gambling crypto consumer app.

如果你想想所有的加密货币消费应用，因为现在确实有很多，比如pump fun，还有，你知道的，甚至中心化交易所。

If you think about like all the crypto consumer apps because there there are lots of them right now, there's pump fun, there's, you know, whatever, even centralized exchanges.

就像，你只有赌场版本一、赌场版本二。

Like, you just have, like, casino version one, casino version two.

它们都只是赌场，只是换了不同的包装，比如Polymarket。

It's either it's just like casino with different, like, window dressing, you know, like polymarket.

哦，现在还能赌天气了。

Oh, gamble on the weather now.

好吧。

Okay.

而且这非常赚钱。

Like and and that's it's super profitable.

对吧？

Right?

就像赌场靠赌博赚大钱一样，尤其是在赌博这种市场里，这是个巨大的行业，而且非常赚钱。

Like, the casinos make tons of money gambling, especially in, you know, in a gambling type type market is it's a huge industry and it's very profitable.

而且创建这些赌场变体、发行代币很容易，这本身就像是一个小型的赌博单元，我们还能从中抽成。

And the ease of creating these, you know, casino variations and launching tokens, which again in itself is, you know, like a microcosm of, k, we're launching a little gamble unit that we then get to, you know, take a rake off of.

这就是模因币的本质。

That's what meme coins, you know, basically were.

所以这基本上把真正有价值的东西的生存空间都挤掉了，因为任何进入加密领域的建设者都会想，我是花五年时间打造一个真正的消费产品，这太难了，而且我们的业务比代币刚发行时好了100倍，但代币价格却跌到谷底，我们也在讨论如何改善这一点。

So that basically sucked all the oxygen out of like the real shit because like any builder going into crypto was like, okay, do I spend, you know, five years building like a real consumer product and it's fucking hard and you could tell I don't know our token, like, our our business is a 100 times better than it was when our token first launched, but, like, the tokens in the gutter where, you know, we talk about things we're doing to improve that as well.

但这真的很难。

But, like, it's it's really hard.

打造一个真正的产品比搞那些赌博的玩意儿要难得多。

Like, it's way harder to build a real product versus like build some other gambling bullshit thing.

所以这完全挤掉了区块链上真正经济的生存空间，根本不给这类东西留任何余地。

And so it sucked all the oxygen out of the the real, you know, the real economy on on on the blockchain and just didn't leave any room for this this kind of stuff.

但是，你知道，就是，我也不知道，就是固执己见或者什么的，我们就是说不。

And but, you know, being just, I don't know, pig headed or whatever, we just said, no.

我们实际上就是要打造一个真正实用的消费级应用，每天都能用，真正帮助人们日常生活的那种。

We're we're actually just gonna build a real consumer app that's usable day to day that actually helps people in their day to day lives.

不是关于赌博，不是关于投机，而是更偏向个人理财。

Not about gambling, not about speculation, but more personal finance.

然后就是年复一年地埋头苦干，已经三年了，你知道，而且我们，我是说，我们离目标还差得远呢。

And just like grinding away for years, like it's been three years, you know, it's and we're I mean, we're still not even close to, you know, where where it needs to be.

所以，这就是为什么我觉得这个很重要，因为这是产品的第一个版本，我觉得至少能有几千万用户使用。

So, like, that's that's why I think this is important because this is, you know, the first version of the product that I can see at least tens of millions of users using.

你知道，第一版就是，好吧，它对加密货币圈的人有用，可能几十万用户。

You know, the v one of it was like, okay, it's it's good for crypto people, maybe a few 100,000 users.

但这个版本，有了法币，简单的法币出入金通道，还有所有这些集成，我觉得能有几千万人使用。

But this version with the fiat, easy fiat, you know, on and off ramps and like all these integrations, I can see tens of millions of people using it.

然后还有一个版本，再往后，可能十亿人也能用上。

And then there's a version, you know, version further on that a billion people might might actually be able to do.

一旦有了这些大型企业，它们创造价值、产生大量收入，就会形成一个生态系统，吸引其他参与者加入。

And once you have, like, these large businesses that, you know, create value, generate lots of revenue, that's gonna create an ecosystem that brings other players in.

然后我觉得在某个时候会有一个临界点，加密货币世界的投机性质会变成一个小小的10%的部分，而不是像今天这样占90%的主导地位。

And then I think at some point, there's gonna be a tipping point where the gamble y nature of the crypto universe becomes like a, you know, a little 10% sliver rather than this sort of 90%, you know, sleeve that that we have today.

我想多了解一下这两个原始功能的具体细节，就是投资和保证金功能。

I wanna learn a little bit more about the specifics behind each of these two primitives, the invest and the margin primitives.

我们来谈谈代币化股票这个部分。

Let's talk about the tokenized stocks element.

你们是怎么决定的？

How are you deciding?

EtherFi是怎么决定使用哪个代币化股票提供商，或者哪些代币化股票会出现在应用里？

How is the EtherFi deciding what tokenized stock provider or what tokenized stocks show up in the app?

你们是怎么展示这些的？

How are you like displaying that?

你们做了哪些选择？

What choices have you made?

后台的服务提供商是谁？

Who's the service provider in the background?

请补充一些细节。

Just fill in some of the details there.

对。

Yeah.

这是个好问题。

That's a that's a great question.

首先，这将是无需许可的。

So, I mean, first of all, it will be permissionless.

所以，你可以……我会谈谈它不久后的样子，而不是现在的样子。

So you you'll be able to I'll talk about the way it'll be, you know, soon after versus what it is today.

最终，你可以使用那个。

Eventually, I mean, you'll be able to use on that.

你可以使用x股票。

You'll be able to use x stocks.

以太坊上有的东西，你都能用。

Whatever is on Ethereum, anything on Ethereum, you'll be able to to use it.

第一天上线，我们就和x stocks一起推出。

Day one, we're launching with with x stocks.

这有很多原因。

A lot of reasons for that.

说实话，就是因为我们和那些人关系好，合作也愉快。

Honestly, it just we we have a good relationship and had a good partnership with those folks.

所以我们上线时，x stocks是主要的选择。

So so we're launching with x stocks being the the primary, you know, the primary option there.

然后还会有一些大宗商品，比如代币化的黄金资产，这些也都可以用。

And then there'll be a number of, you know, commodities, so tokenized gold assets that are available as well.

你们会不会特别推荐x stocks或者代币化黄金资产，而不是其他的？

Do you guys, like, kind of opinionatedly show, like, ex oxen or, like, the tokenized gold assets more than, like, others?

对。

Yeah.

你们确实是在挑选，选出那些我们觉得质量好、可以放心提供的。

You do, like, are selecting, here are the quality ones that we feel comfortable selling.

不是卖，而是展示，给用户提供购买的选项。

Not selling, but displaying, giving the option to buy to our users.

对。

Yeah.

因为我们需要决定哪些资产可以在Aave市场上作为抵押品启用。

Because we need to make a choice about which ones are enabled as collateral on the Aave market.

所以这是我们做出的选择，有风险管理者来做这些决定。

And so the that's the choice that we're making as there's a risk curator that's making those decisions.

然后还需要做一些接线工作，用于清算，以及为每种资产设置风险参数。

And then and then there's a bunch of, like, wiring that needs to be done for liquidations and, you know, setting the risk parameters on each of these assets.

所以这个选择已经做了。

So so that's kind of a choice that's been made.

明白了。

I see.

好的。

Okay.

我们来看看Aave这边的情况。

Let's go into the Aave side of things.

跟我讲讲Aave的spoke模型吧。

Talk to me about the Aave spoke model.

我们从来没做过关于Aave spokes的节目，所以我觉得我们需要先理解一下这个结构是什么意思。

We've never done an episode on Aave spokes, so I think we would need to help understand, like, what that construction means.

嗯，是的。

So Mhmm.

给我讲讲那是什么，之后我们可以深入一些更具体的细节。

Walk me through what that is, and we can get into some of the near, giddier details after that.

对。

Yeah.

所以Aave是Aave V4，这是Aave的新版本，你知道，他们最近发布的，发展得非常好，是一个非常灵活的系统。

So Aave is Aave V4, which is the new iteration of Aave that, you know, they recently released that's, you know, growing really nicely, is a very flexible system.

比如说，你可以创建这些隔离市场，只在一个资产和另一个资产之间进行借贷。

Like, you could you could create these isolated markets where you only, you know, borrow and lend one asset versus another.

我们目前的使用方式还比较简单，就是一个市场，你所有的投资组合都放在这个市场里，我们只是为每个资产设定风险参数和阈值，规定你可以怎么操作。

We're using it in a at least for now in like a a pretty simple way where it's one market where you you know, all your portfolio stuff goes into this one market and we just we set risk parameters and thresholds around each asset in terms of what you can do with it.

这个市场的使用方式和其他Aave市场或者其他DeFi借贷协议很不一样。

And this market is very much not meant to be used the same way that other Aave markets or other DeFi lending protocols have been used.

具体来说，其他DeFi市场通常非常激进，风险很高。

Like, what I mean specifically is other DeFi markets are very DGN heavy.

所以就像，好吧。

So it's like, okay.

你可以在这个市场上加10倍杠杆。

You can, like, lever up 10 x on this market.

你可以非常激进地循环你的资产。

You can, like, loop, you know, your assets, you know, super aggressively.

你可以一直加到极限。

You you know, take it all the way or right up to, you know, the the limit.

然后如果价格变动几个百分点，你就会被清算，这非常激进。

And then if the price changes by a few percent, you get liquidated and it it's very, like, aggressive.

你不想那样，因为你不想在风险管理操作上走得太远。

And you don't want that because you don't want to be, like, too far on the in the operations of risk management.

你会做风险管理，但那不是你的专长。

You are going to do risk management, but that's not yours that's not your specialty.

你会想保持得更温和一些。

You're going to like keep it a little bit more moderate.

其实那不是真正的原因。

It's actually that's actually not the reason.

我是说，我们当然可以做风险管理，毕竟这显然有效，对吧，像Aave在相当疯狂的市场条件下都挺过来了。

I mean, we certainly could do the risk management to I mean, it's it's it's clearly worked, right, for like, Aave's worked across, like, pretty insane market conditions.

不。

No.

我们只是不想让我们的用户被搞垮。

We we just don't want our users to get wrecked.

比如像交易所，像是中心化交易所或者什么资金盘之类的。

Like, an exchange, like a centralized exchange or a pump fund or whatever.

我是认真的，我坚持这个观点。

And I, you know, I mean, I'll stand by this.

它就像个碎木机。

Like, it's a wood chipper.

你只管把用户往里扔，然后他们全都被吞掉。

Like, you just feed users into it and they just all of them come in.

大家都会亏钱。

Everyone loses money.

然后他们就被清算了，接着再去赚点钱，再投进去一些。

And they just like, you know, they they get wiped out and they go and they earn a little bit more and they put some more in.

这简直就是个赌场。

It's just it's a casino.

这就是他们的商业模式。

Like, that's the business model.

就是把用户往这台机器里喂。

It just fucking feed the users into into this machine.

如果我们这么做，我们就会倒闭。

And, like, we we go out of business if we do that.

我们不能那样做。

We cannot do that.

我们需要用户保持偿付能力，做出合理的决策。

We need our users to stay solvent and, like, make reasonable decisions.

所以对于EtherFi，我们允许你借的额度非常有限，只能拿ETH和其他基础资产作为抵押来借款。

So with EtherFi, I mean, we've had a much more limited, you know, ability to borrow for for your your card against, like, this against, like, ETH and, like, other basic assets.

在我们运营的整个期间，被清算的资产总额只有几千美元。

In the entire time that, you know, been we've been around, like, the amount of assets liquidated is, a few thousand dollars.

而相比之下，这些金库里有大约2亿美元。

So, like, this is out of, like, I think, $200,000,000 in these vaults.

我们只清算过价值几千美元的资产。

We've only ever had to liquidate a few thousand dollars worth of assets.

这就算赢了。

Like, that's and that's a win.

我们本可以提高风险水平，那样的话我们会在清算中赚很多钱，但那样会把我们的用户都搞垮。

Like, we we could have, like, dialed up the risk profile and, like, we would have made tons of money on liquidations, but, like, then we, you know, wipe out our own users.

所以这个市场本来就应该更保守。

So so this market is very meant to be much more conservative.

没有10倍杠杆。

No 10 x leverage.

实际上，这个市场和其他市场有两个不同点，就是有两个阈值。

And and in fact, there's two the difference with this market versus others is there's actually two thresholds.

一个阈值是超过它就不能再借或再花了，另一个更高的阈值是会被清算。

One threshold above which it will not let you borrow anymore or spend anymore, and then a much higher threshold where you get liquidated.

而其他市场只有一个阈值。

Whereas in other markets, there's just one threshold.

一直借到不能再借为止。

Just keep borrowing all the way to the end.

然后如果你继续点击下去，你就会爆仓。

And then if you, you know, click over your you get wiped out.

而我们的情况是，我们设了一个保守的阈值，哪怕价格波动40%也不会让你爆仓。

In our case, we we have, like, one conservative threshold where, like, even a 40% price move won't, like, won't kill you.

然后还有一个更激进的阈值，到那个点才会真正触发清算。

And then another much more aggressive threshold where you get to actually liquidate.

所以这就是应用场景不同而已。

So it's just a different use case.

我们不指望别人到这里来加杠杆，去搞什么最大程度的投机。

We're, like, we're not looking for people to come here and, like, you know, lever up and, know, go max max d gen.

这更像是给个人理财用的工具。

This is really meant to be like a personal finance tool.

那么当资产流入这个Aave时，它叫什么名字？

So as assets flow into this Aave, what is it called?

不是叫spoke，那个不是spoke。

Not not a spoke spoke.

这是一个中心。

It's a hub.

对，这是一个中心，然后会有多个分支从它延伸出来。

It's a hub, and then there's there's gonna be multiple spokes coming out of it.

目前只有一个。

Just one.

那

What are

那这些分支是什么？

the what are the spokes then in

在这种情况下？

that case?

目前就一个。

For now, just one.

就只有一个主要分支。

There would just be the one main spoke.

因为它是在Optimism上推出的，我们讨论过通过推出另一个专门用于Optimism上更多DeFi活动的分支来实现。

Because it's being launched on optimism, we we've talked about them by launching another spoke specifically dedicated to more DeFi activity on optimism.

我想我可以这么说。

I think I can say that.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

比如说，假设你是我，我是EtherFi的用户。

So like say say you have my I'm a EtherFi user.

我有，我在买一些股票。

I have I'm buying I'm buying some stocks.

我买了一些特斯拉。

I got some Tesla.

我买了一些黄金。

I got some gold.

现在因为这个Aave市场，我相当于有了一条信用额度，所以我就借点钱。

Now I have like a line of credit because of this Aave market, and so I borrow some money.

那这些钱是谁借给我的呢？

Who is lending me that money?

这个借贷关系的另一方是谁？

Who's on the other side of that borrow lend equation?

要么是其他在EtherFi市场存款的用户，反正简单回答就是其他用户。

So either other users who are depositors in in this EtherFi market or well, I guess other users is the the short answer.

世界上任何人都可以往这个市场存钱。

So they can be anybody in the world can deposit into the market.

所以是完全开放无门槛的。

So it's totally permissionless.

所以基本上就是那些存款用户？

So basic cash users

或者什么的。

or or anything.

我的意思是，存款。

I mean, deposit.

这只是一个开放的市场。

It's just an open market.

所以你可以是现金用户、EtherFi用户，或者任何人。

So you can be a cash user, an EtherFi user, or anybody.

也可能是金融机构，想在低风险市场赚取收益。

It could be a financial institution looking to earn yield in like a pretty low risk market.

所以任何人都可以存款。

So anybody can deposit.

借款仅限于现金用户。

Borrowing is limited just to cash users.

这就是大概的想法。

So that's sort of the the idea.

所以你是在向各种各样的存款人借款。

So you're borrowing from a wide variety of depositors.

我们有几个合作伙伴，他们实际上会存入一部分资金库，以此来帮助促进市场的发展。

We have a few partners that are actually gonna be depositing some of their treasury as sort of a way to help facilitate the growth of the the market.

所以会有各种各样的参与者参与进来。

So there's gonna be a variety of players participate.

所以EtherFi是利用Aave V4作为自己用户的借贷撮合平台。

So EtherFi is using Aave V4 to be like a matchmaking platform for its own users for borrowing and lending.

所以这就像是，是的。

So it's like a Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

确实，但它是无银行化的。

Does, but doing it bankless.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

说得特别对。

That's exactly right.

我的意思是，传统银行把大家的存款收上来，然后拿去赌那些抵押贷款债券之类的东西，全藏在什么看不见的黑箱里操作，结果每隔几年还能拿政府救助。

That's I mean, a bank gets together, takes your deposits, you know, gambles in our mortgage bonds or whatever in some opaque black box, and then every few years, they get bailed out.

但在这个体系里，一切都非常透明。

In this case, you know, it's fully transparent.

你可以自由选择参与或者不参与。

You can choose to participate or choose not to participate.

但如果你选择参与，存入资金后就能获得一定的利息收益，然后其他用户可以用这些资金去申请贷款，或者做他们想做的任何事情。

But if you choose to participate, you deposit, you're in a bit of interest, and then other users can use that to to take out a loan and, you know, do whatever whatever they wanna do.

这是EtherFi损益表里新增的一项收入来源吗？

Is this a new revenue line item in the EtherFi P and L?

也就是说，这能给EtherFi带来利润？

Like, this makes money for EtherFi?

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

所以不管是资产互换还是这个借贷市场，都能赚钱。

So both the swaps on on assets makes makes money, and this lending market also makes money.

好的。

Okay.

行。

Alright.

所以你们从借贷收益里抽一点手续费，然后当有人，比如说……

So you you take a little bit of the fee of of the lending yield, and then when somebody, like, say as

像Aave或者其他Aave市场，总是有……

Aave or any Aave market, there's always

对。

a Right.

Aave是在跟你们分享一部分收益。

Aave is sharing some of their economics with you.

我肯定Aave也拿了一些。

I'm sure Aave gets a little bit too.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

我觉得这是公开的。

I think this is public.

你知道，有过一个Aave的治理提案。

There was a, you know, an Aave governance proposal.

所以是80比20。

So it's 8020.

EtherFi留80%。

So EtherFi keeps 80%.

Aave拿20%的收入分成，作为基础设施的回报。

Aave gets a 20% rev share for the the infra.