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车站的银行。
Bank of the station.
我又一次和来自Ondo的伊恩·德博德在一起。
I'm here once again with Ian De Bode from Ondo.
伊恩，欢迎再次做客我们的播客。
Ian, welcome back to the podcast.
谢谢你们邀请我。
Thanks for having me.
伊恩，现实世界资产现在可真是火得很。
Ian, real world assets, pretty hot right now.
Ondo早就扎根在现实世界资产这个领域了。
Ondo's been here building in real world assets for forever.
感觉整个加密世界现在都在往你们的领域靠拢。
It kinda feels like the rest of the crypto world is moving into your guys' domain.
早就深耕这个领域，现在其他公司纷纷跟进，这种感觉怎么样？
How how does it, feel to just have already been in the space that now a lot of other companies are moving into?
是的
Yeah.
看到你差不多三年前说的那些话如今全都变成了现实，确实有种不真实的感觉。
It's it's definitely a surreal experience to see what you were saying almost three years ago now all come to life.
对
Mhmm.
这感觉非常好。
So it's very nice.
某种程度上，这也让人感到欣慰。
It's in a way flattering.
竞争确实明显加剧了。
There's definitely increased competition.
我觉得每周都有大型加密交易所或经纪平台推出自己的代币化股票产品，但看到这么多人进入这个领域，真正拥抱现实世界资产，还是非常有趣和令人振奋的。
I feel like every single week there is a large crypto exchange or brokerage platform launching their own version of tokenized equities, but it is very interesting and exciting to see everyone entering the space and really embracing RWAs.
是的
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
尤其是今年上半年永续合约的兴起，正好和现实世界资产交易的崛起同步发生。
Especially with the rise of Perps really, rise of Perps in the first half of this year coincided with the rise of just, like, real world asset trading.
加密货币交易所和永续合约的交易量下降了，但现实世界资产的交易量却在上升。
It's like crypto volumes on crypto exchanges and also on Perps is down, but real world asset trading is up.
没错。
Yes.
看来人们确实喜欢现实世界资产。
Turns out turns out people like real world assets.
我想聊聊这周引起所有人关注的那一个现实世界资产。
I wanna talk about the the the one particular real world asset that has caught everyone's attention this week.
就是SpaceX，还有它的代币化版本。
That's SpaceX and a tokenized SpaceX.
SpaceX于6月12日在纳斯达克上市。
SpaceX IPO ed on Nasdaq on June 12.
同一天，也就是6月12日，Ondo在以太坊上发行了SpaceX的代币化股票。
Ondo's tokenized SpaceX stock was minted on Ethereum that same day, also on June 12.
这怎么做到这么快的？
How did that happen so fast?
是的。
Yeah.
好问题。
Great question.
他们刚开市，我们这边差不多五分钟内就上线交易了。
I think we were live with trading about five minutes after The Real Thing started trading.
这事儿我们不是第一次干了。
So clearly this was not our first rodeo.
我们之前做过一次IPO。
We've done an IPO before.
上次虽然顺利，但没这次这么顺，所以我们心里有数了。
That one went smooth but not as smooth as this one so we kind of knew what to do.
你们得提前部署好这个代币。
You deploy the token ahead of time.
确保所有做市商之类的机构都已经把代币集成到他们的系统里了。
You really make sure that all the market makers, etcetera, already have it integrated into their systems.
我们的代币化股票平台最适合和链上系统配合使用。
Our tokenized stock platform works best with intense based systems.
比如你们熟悉的 OneInch、Uniswap X、Kowswap 这些平台。
Like, think of your one infusion, Uniswap X, Kowswap, all those guys.
我们会提前确保所有这些平台都已接入代币，等一上市，我们只需要在系统里打开开关，接入价格数据，明确市场价格，之后任何人就能立刻买入了。
We make sure that ahead of time all of those platforms had already integrated to token and then the moment the thing becomes tradable, we just had to flip the switch in our system, get a get a a price feed essentially to make sure that we understand what the price is and the moment that happens, anyone can buy it.
整个过程大概只花了五分钟，所以 IPO 当天几乎所有人都能买到 SpaceX 的股票，那些买到了的人，现在大概涨了 30% 左右。
So that basically only took about five minutes, which is why everyone more or less at IPO was able to buy SpaceX and those who did quite frankly, I think are up 30% or so.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
或者这么说，如果股价跌了30%，你也不在意，因为你只是在为他们提供股票而已。
Or or I mean, if they were down 30%, like, you don't care because all you're doing is serving them the stock.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
That is correct.
我们非常支持投资者的自主选择权。
We are a big proponent of investor choice.
当我们的投资者赚钱的时候，我当然更开心。
It does make me happier when our investors are up versus down.
但归根结底，核心是提供准入机会，人们有权自由决定如何使用自己的资金。
But yes, in the end, it is all about enabling access and people are free to do with their money what they choose.
这可能需要我们简单回顾一下Ondo代币化股票是什么，以及它是如何运作的。
This might require just kind of a refresher on what is Ondo tokenized stock is and how it works.
但你们在SpaceX上市前就持有它的股票了吗？你们是怎么做到一上线就能让这些代币在以太坊上交易，并且真正由SpaceX股票支持的？
But did you guys have SpaceX shares ahead of IPO or how were you guys ready to flip the switch and have those tokens trade on Ethereum actually being backed by SpaceX?
这到底是怎么运作的？
How did that how does that work?
是的。
Yeah.
这次我们没有参与上市前的配售。
We did not do the pre IPO allocation this time.
上市前配售的问题在于，你完全依赖能否拿到IPO的份额，而这些份额基本都给了大型机构和大经纪平台。
The problem with those pre IPO allocations is that you are entirely dependent on getting an allocation in the IPO and that really gets handed out to large institutions, big brokerage platforms.
Ondo虽然不小，但也没大到那种程度，对吧？
You know, Ondo is big but not that big, right?
如果向一些合作伙伴承诺上市前配售，风险就在于最后拿不到，导致大家非常失望——这正是我们之前看到的情况，尤其是X股票这边，我觉得他们没把预期管理好。
And I think if the risk of trying to promise pre IPO allocation to some of the partners is that you end up not getting it and people are very disappointed and that is exactly what we saw, particularly with X stocks quite frankly, who I think did not set expectations in the right way.
所以BIBID、BITGET、Binance Wallet这些平台都挺失望的，因为他们根本没拿到想要的X股票配额。
So you had BIBID and BITGET and Binance Wallet, etcetera all being quite disappointed because they did not get any of the allocation Biotic stocks that they wanted.
所以考虑到这一点，我们一开始就没打算这么做，但未来还是有办法处理Pre-IPO股票的。
So with that in mind, we did not actually try that in the first place but down the line there are ways to do pre IPO stocks.
我的意思是，现在OpenAI、Anthropic这些公司都特别受关注，还有几家也一样。
I mean, there's a lot of excitement around OpenAI, Anthropic, a couple of others.
我们确实在考虑提供Pre-IPO股票，但目前我们的核心重点始终是IPO发生的那一刻——当某家公司股票在纳斯达克或纽约证券交易所开始交易时，我们能用我们的模型和封装机制，快速把它代币化，让美国以外的海外投资者也能参与。只要美股主流交易所一开市，大家就能通过我们的平台和DEFIRE机制，以封装形式买入。
We are definitely considering offering pre IPO stocks as well but right now our main focus is always the moment to the IPO happens, the moment something is tradable on the NASDAQ or the New York Stock Exchange, that is when we can tokenize something very quickly with our model, with the wrapper forum, so available to offshore investors outside The US so that the moment something trades on one of the national exchanges in The US, people can buy it in wrapped form via our platform and via our DEFIRE traditions.
也许我们可以用一个鲁布·戈德堡装置来打个比方——一堆零件连在一起，最后 SpaceX IPO 上市，股票在纳斯达克开始交易，所有环节就都接上了，灯泡亮了，代币也开始交易了。
Maybe we can illustrate a little bit of, like, the Rube Goldmurker machine where you have, like, different pieces all kinda connecting and then, you know, the SpaceX IPOs, it trades on the Nasdaq and then everything like I mean, the wires all connect, the light bulb turns on, the token starts trading.
那这些关键的零件到底是什么？
So what are these puzzle pieces?
是的。
Yeah.
一部分在链上，另一部分在链下。
There's an onchain bit and there's an offchain bit.
链上部分，就是终端投资者持有钱包的那个平台。
So onchain, you have essentially the platform where the end investor is in the wallet that they hold.
可能是 MetaMask 钱包，或者 Phantom 钱包，没错。
This could be MetaMask wallet, Phantom wallet Right.
BINNAS 钱包也行，随便哪个都行。
A BINNAS wallet, you name it, whatever.
对吧？
Right?
有些钱包已经内置了股票交易界面，有些则没有；你可以去 Uniswap、Kaoswap、1inch，或者 Solana 上的 Jupiter，具体情况因人而异。
Some wallets have integrated an actual stock trading interface natively in the wallet, some have not and then you can go to a Uniswap or a Kaoswap or one inch interface or Jupiter on Solana, right, kind of depends.
你选好想买的股票，大多数人会用稳定币来买，所以你的钱包里得先有稳定币。
You select the stock that you want to buy and typically most people buy it via stablecoins, you need to have stablecoins in your wallet.
当你看到一个满意的价格时，这个价格通常是通过我们自己的 API 实时获取的。
You see a price that you like, that price is being streamed typically fetched via our own APIs.
和买其他加密货币一样，也会有一点滑点容忍度。
It has a little bit of slippage tolerance just like you would buy any crypto.
一旦看到合适的价格，你就点确认，决定买入。
The moment you see a price that you like, you say, yes, I'd like to buy.
这时候，系统会发起一个报价请求。
At that point, an RFQ is kicked off.
我们的代币上并没有去中心化交易所的流动性池，对吧？
So there are no DEX pools on our tokens, right?
很多人可以部署这样的池子，但我们肯定不会这么做。
Many people can deploy them, but we definitely do not deploy them.
当用户点击‘购买’按钮时，他们想买的代币通常还不存在于链上。
The token that someone wants to buy typically is not on chain yet the moment they click that button that says buy.
实际发生的情况是，系统会发起一个报价请求，也就是说，那些接入了我们DeFi和TET协议的做市商，会收到通知：有人想买价值十万美金的SpaceX股票。
What ends up happening is an RFQ is kicked off, that just means that market makers who are integrated into those DEFI and TET protocols, they get a ping that says, hey we have an inbound for whatever, someone wants to buy a $100,000 worth of SpaceX, right?
这些做市商接入了我们的系统，收到通知后会调用我们的API，问：十万美金的SpaceX股票，你们报个价？
They get that ping, those market makers are onboarded with us and then ping our APIs that says, hey, $100,000 worth of SpaceX, what's the price you got?
我们会查一下纽约证券交易所或纳斯达克的实时价格，然后在此基础上加5个基点，也就是0.05%。
We check exactly what is the price available on the New York Stock Exchange or the Nasdaq and we add five bps, so 0.05% on top of that price.
这个价格就是我们最终收取的报价。
That is the price that we charge.
我们会为做市商锁定这个价格一段时间，让他们能参与后续的竞拍流程。
That market, we lock that price in for that market maker for a period of time so that that market maker can then go and compete in that auction process.
他们通常会加非常小的价差，一到两个基点，谁给终端投资者报出最优价格，谁就赢得竞拍。
They typically add a very small spread on top, one to two bips, whichever market maker offers the best execution price to the end investor wins the auction.
接着，他们会用我们提供的链上签名证明，加上用户的稳定币，提交到我们的铸造智能合约；合约验证签名和资金后，就会铸造代币，再由做市商转给终端投资者。
They then take that signed attestation that we gave them onchain, they take the user stablecoins, they submit that into our minting smart contract, our minting smart contract recognizes that signed attestations and sees the stablecoins, they mint them the tokens and that market maker sends it over to the end investor.
整个过程大约只需要一秒钟。
This entire process can take about a second.
对吧？
Right?
速度很快。
It's pretty quick.
一旦我们为SpaceX代币完成铸造，就必须立即进行抵押，也就是去公开市场买入实际的SpaceX股票，确保所有铸造的代币都有充足 backing。
The moment we minted the tokens for SpaceX, that's when we have to collateralize and we have to actually go out and buy the underlying SpaceX stock to make sure that whatever we minted is fully backed.
在代币铸造完成并确认后的几百毫秒内，我们就会去市场上买入对应的SpaceX股票。
So within a couple hundred milliseconds that we have minted the token and it is finalized, that is when we buy the SpaceX on the open market.
在我们锁定价格之后，SpaceX的股价可能已经有些变动了。
It is possible that the price of SpaceX has since moved a little bit since we locked in that price.
所以我们收取五个基点的费用，主要是为了对冲一点波动风险。到了这一步，全球任何拥有自托管钱包的人都能买到完全抵押、完全背书的SpaceX代币了。
That's why we charge that five bips is basically to protect ourselves with a little bit of a volatility buffer and at that point, you know, someone globally with a self custodial wallet has bought SpaceX fully collateralized, fully backed in wrapper form.
整个流程总共需要多久？
What's the total time?
从开始到结束，整个过程要花多长时间？
What's the total round trip time that takes?
在币安链或者Solana上，大概一秒钟。
On the Binance chain or Solana, about a second.
明白了。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
而在以太坊上，可能需要长达十二秒。
And then in Ethereum up up to twelve seconds.
十二秒而已。
Well, twelve seconds.
对。
Yeah.
如果是通过Cow Swap购买， technically 是三个区块。
Three blocks technically if you buy it on a cow swap.
所以。
So
三十秒左右，但你们这边不会面临太大价格波动风险，因为一旦收到钱，你们能立刻完成交易。
thirty seconds But you you guys don't feel you have too much exposure to price volatility on your side of things because your side of things, once you receive the money, you guys are able to execute super quick.
没错。
So Correct.
价格波动大概率会控制在你们预留的那五个基点范围内。
Price volatility is very likely to stay within that 5 bp range that you guys pad for yourselves on.
这正是为了应对高波动性资产而设计的缓冲机制。
That is designed basically to have that padding on very volatile assets.
我们可能会稍微多收一点，但总体来说，这五个基点已经足够了。
It is possible that we charge slightly more, but by and large, yes, that five bits is enough.
市场不会只动一个资产。
Markets don't move one asset at a time.
今天可能是比特币，明天是英伟达，然后是黄金，再接着是标普指数。
One day it's Bitcoin, the next Nvidia, then gold, and then the S and P.
但大多数交易员还是在不同平台、不同账户和不同资金池之间管理他们的投资组合。
But most traders are still managing their portfolio across different platforms, different accounts, and different pools of capital.
BITGET彻底改变了这一点。
BITGET just changed that.
他们的新产品 Stocks 2.0 让你直接用 USDT 交易代币化股票，全都集成在你平时用的同一个 App 里。
Their new stocks two point o product lets you trade tokenized equities directly with USDT, all inside the same app you already use for crypto.
这可不是普通的代币化股票产品。
This is not just another tokenized stock product.
Stocks 2.0 的设计核心是更深的流动性、更快的成交速度，以及市场上最低的手续费——仅 0.04%，并且与标的股票实现 1:1 的收益对应。
Stocks two point o is designed around deeper liquidity, faster execution, and the lowest fees on the market at just point zero four percent and one to one economic exposure to the underlying stock.
股息、股票分拆和其他公司行动都会自动更新，确保你的持仓始终与你真正想投资的资产保持一致。
Dividends, stock splits, and other corporate actions are reflected automatically, helping your position stay aligned with the asset you actually want exposure to.
一个平台、一个账户，覆盖多个市场——加密资产、股票、商品等等，全部用USDT交易。
One platform, one account, multiple markets, crypto equities, commodities, and more, all accessible with USDT.
BITGET。
BITGET.
更聪明地交易。
Trade smarter.
立即通过节目简介中的链接开始交易。
Start trading today through the link in the show notes.
这不是投资建议。
This is not investment advice.
有个好消息要分享。
Some exciting news.
我们即将推出一档新播客，帮助大家理解加密货币的周期，以及如何应对它。
We are launching a new podcast to help people figure out the crypto cycle, how to navigate it.
我认识的最厉害的加密货币周期投资者，叫迈克尔·纳托。
The best crypto cycle investor I know, his name is Michael Nato.
他运营着《DeFi报告》。
He runs the DEFI REPORT.
就是他，在价格暴跌10比10之前给我发了卖出提醒。
This is the guy that sent me a sell alert before the 10:10 price drop happened.
他的周期分析一直非常精准。
His cycle analysis has been absolutely on point.
我关注他很多年了。
I've been following him for years.
今年，我们开始每周录制一期播客。
And this year, we started recording weekly podcast episodes.
每期都会深入他的投资组合，看看他持有哪些资产，分析市场结构、入场目标，以及对比特币和以太坊的合理估值，还有我们当前所处的周期阶段。
Each one, we get into his portfolio, what he's holding, the market structure, entry targets, fair market value of Bitcoin and Ether, and where we are in the cycle.
每周三都会更新新一期内容。
There's new episodes that are released every Wednesday.
每期大概三十分钟。
They're thirty minutes.
篇幅不长。
They're short.
内容紧凑有力。
They're punchy.
我觉得这次加密周期比以往更难把握，不如咱们一起跟进。
I think this crypto cycle is harder to navigate than most, so let's do it together.
赶紧去订阅这个播客吧。
Go subscribe to this podcast.
在你常用的平台搜索“DEFI REPORT”，无论是YouTube、Apple还是Spotify，或者查看节目说明里的链接都可以。
Search the DEFI report wherever you get your podcasts, YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or find a link in the show notes.
新一期已经上线，等你来听。
There's a new episode waiting for you now.
比如，我们先说说SpaceX代币，大部分买入来自哪里？
Where does the majority of buying for example, let's we can just talk about the SpaceX token.
大部分购买行为发生在哪儿？
Where does the majority of the buying happen?
是在你们的前端发生，还是用户直接去像Uniswap这样的平台？
Does that happen on your guys' front end or is it just like users going to, like, Uniswap?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得大概是八二开。
It's definitely I'd say eighty twenty.
百分之八十在我们平台之外，百分之二十在平台内。
80% is outside of our platform, 20% in the platform.
我们接入了众多主流加密钱包和交易所，比如币安、BITGET、Gate、OPEX、MetaMask等等，用户量很大。
We are integrated into a lot of the large crypto wallets and exchanges, Binance, BITGET, Gate, OPEX, MetaBask Fed and so there's a lot of users.
它们的用户比我们多得多。
They have more users than us.
目前，我们80%到90%的交易量和锁仓资金其实都来自平台外部，但
So typically eighty eighty to 90% of our flow in TVL right now is coming from outside of our own but
但交易还是走的这条核心路径。
But it's still going through the intense route.
对吧？
Correct?
在AMM池子里买就太傻了，因为流动性肯定不如直接找做市商，他们跟你们直接连着，你们也直接连着交易所。
Because it would be silly to buy it on an AMM pool because the liquidity is not going to be as good as directly tapping into the market makers because those people are directly tapped into you and you're directly tapped into the actual exchange.
你说得一点没错。
You nailed it.
没错。
Right.
明白了。
Okay.
这么说就全都讲得通了。
That that makes all pretty sense.
要说像鲁布·戈德堡机器那样复杂，这个机制其实挺简单，也很好理解。
As far as like a Rube Goldberg machine, that one's pretty pretty simple and pretty easy to reason about.
我的意思是，现在回头看，确实如此，但很多竞争对手一开始都用去中心化交易所的流动性池，根本没搞懂怎么直接接入TRATFA里已有的流动性，所以早期很多人买的代币化股票价格总是大幅波动。
I mean, right, yes, now in hindsight, but you know, a lot of our competitors launched with DEX pools, they never figured out how to do that straight tapping into the liquidity that already exists in TRATFA, which is why initially a lot of people were buying tokenized stocks that would be pegged left and right.
但真正的方法，说实话，唯一正确的方式，就是直接接入这些已经存在的分层流动性，这样你才能做到。
But the real way, the only way quite frankly to really do this is to tap into that stratified liquidity that already exists and that way you can
根本不可能，AMM池子产生的流动性根本没法跟直接对接相比。
go There's away no way an AMN pool is going to create anywhere near as much as liquidity as possible.
就连现在，我们上周看到一个新对手在Solana上上线，还截图炫耀说：‘天啊，我们的DEX池子里有六百万美元的流动性，快来跟我们一起买吧。’
But even right now, like we saw a new competitor launch on Solana last week and then they screenshot this like, oh my god, we have $6,000,000 in the DEX pool liquidity, come and buy it with us.
但你只要去Jupiter上挂一个一百万美元的订单，看看滑点就知道了。
And then you literally just have to go on Jupiter and put in a $1,000,000 order, check the slippage.
在DEX池子里滑点能到百分之十，而在IOS上滑点只有百分之零点一。
It would be 10% slippage on a DEX pool and point 1% slippage of IOS.
我觉得没错，六百万美元的池子，其实没多少资金就能把它打穿。
I I feel like, yeah, I mean, on a $6,000,000 pool, much less than that will blow it out.
AMM池子根本经不起多大波动，稍微一动就失衡了。
Like it doesn't take much to like move an AMM pool.
不是。
No.
不过别误会，我还是挺喜欢AMM池的，毕竟周末交易得靠它，对吧？
And don't get me wrong, I love AMM pools because they are required for weekend trading this Right?
所以AMM池在那个时候才有用。
So that's when an AMM pool becomes helpful.
但真正靠谱的做法，还是像我们这样，在全天24小时、每周5天的交易时段，甚至夜间，提供即时流动性。
But yeah, doing just in time liquidity like we do it during, you know, twenty four five market hours and overnight is really the only way to do to do it right.
你们平台上最成功的代币化股票是哪些？
What have been your guys' most successful tokenized stocks?
哪只股票买得最多？
Who is buying what stock the most?
Circle出人意料地遥遥领先，稳居第一。
Circle is surprisingly so the number one by a mile actually.
听说中国有些交易团体觉得它会是下一个英伟达。
Apparently, there's like trader groups in China that think it's the next Nvidia is what I was told.
这挺奇怪的
It's very
我觉得挺有意思。
funny to me.
但你知道，大家就是喜欢这只股票，所以就去买。
But, you know, people love people love the stock so they buy it.
美光很受欢迎，当然还有
Micron is very popular and then obviously
这倒更符合我的想法。
That would make more sense to me.
对。
Yeah.
美光最近表现特别突出。
Micron really came up.
其他半导体股票，像你懂的，英伟达、特斯拉这类，其实都是些Max 7系列的。
Other semi stocks, your, you know, Nvidia's, Teslas of the world, it's a bunch of the max sevens.
现在SpaceX正在迅速上涨。
Now SpaceX is climbing very rapidly.
所以，你知道的，老面孔了。
So, you know, the usual suspect.
不错。
Cool.
明白了。
Okay.
是的。
Yeah.
现在最火的那些股票。
The the in vogue stonks.
对。
Yes.
没错。
That's right.
好的。
Okay.
假设我手里有这些资产，比如MU、SpaceX、Circle，我持有一篮子这样的东西，那为什么把它们代币化之后，比放在Robinhood里更好呢？
So say I have some of these things, MU, SpaceX, Circle, say I have a portfolio of these things, why are the tokens, the tokenized versions of the equities better than holding them in my Robinhood, for example?
在链上我能用它们做什么，是Robinhood做不到的？
What can I do with them onchain that you can't do in Robinhood?
确实如此。
Yeah.
现在越来越多的情况是，你可以把它们
Increasingly, you can use
当作任何地方的抵押品使用。
them as collateral wherever you want.
如果你打算在我们的永续合约平台里用它们做保证金或者抵押，完全可以。
So if you want to use them for margin purposes or collateral purposes on our own Perps platform, you can.
我觉得围绕股票的去中心化金融生态才刚刚起步，因为DeFi最初并不是为一下子支持几百种资产设计的。
I'd say the DEFI ecosystem around stocks is only just developing because DEFI wasn't really built to support hundreds of assets right off the bat.
我觉得在加密货币领域，你围绕二十个资产搭建一个去中心化金融平台就足够了。
I think with crypto, you know, you could build a DEFI platform around 20 assets and you're fine.
没错。
Right.
要是看其他市场，通常几十个资产也就差不多了。
If you think about other markets, for markets tends to be okay.
但股票不一样，一不留神你就得面对几百只市值超过五百亿美元的股票。
But with stocks before you know it, you're in the hundreds of different stocks that all have market caps of 50,000,000,000 plus.
对吧？
Right?
所以去中心化金融当初根本没打算处理这么大规模的资产池，不过现在这些整合功能正在陆续上线。
So DEFI wasn't really built to incorporate the size of that asset pool, but a lot of those integrations are getting built now.
我们已经开始看到像Morpho、Camino这样的平台出现了相关应用。
So we're starting to see some faults on Morpho, Camino, and the like.
Ondo Perps平台上现在也有了新的抵押品使用场景。
And there's also collateral use cases now on Ondo Perps itself.
所以你可以用你实际的代币化股票作为抵押，在我们的平台上开永续合约。
So you can use your actual tokenized stocks as collateral to open up a perp on our platform.
对。
Mhmm.
明白了。
Okay.
那我们就直接聊聊 Ondo Perps 吧，我觉得这才是今天对话的重点，也是我请你来的原因——想更深入了解真实资产永续合约这个领域。
So, yeah, let's just go into Ondo Perps because I think this is actually gonna be the meat of this conversation and why I wanted to bring you on to understand a little bit more about the real world asset perp world.
如果我没理解错的话，真实资产永续合约最早是今年早些时候在 Hyperliquid 上出现的，当时 Trade XYZ 率先上线了黄金和白银资产，时机简直完美。
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, real world asset perps kinda started on Hyperliquid earlier this year where first Trade XYZ listed the gold and silver assets right before they had the mania, so fantastic timing.
但那时候并没有实际的底层资产。
But there was no underlying.
他们只是报了个价格，没有真实的标的物，这跟有实际底层资产的交易环境和市场结构是完全不一样的。
They just quoted the price and there was no no underlying, which is a different environment, trading environment, market structure environment than if there was an underlying.
后来石油市场也上线了，情况也一样。
Then oil markets came online, same thing.
现在我们开始进入股票永续合约的世界了。
And now we're starting to get into the world of equity perps.
美国商品期货交易委员会的迈克·塞利格对永续合约平台和股票永续的概念表达了非常正面的看法。
We have Mike Selig from the CFTC talking very fair favorably about perp platforms and the concept of equity perps.
我不太确定这会走向哪里，因为一旦涉及股票永续，就得谈那些现有玩家，合规问题会变得特别复杂，但其实也没那么关键，算了，不提了。
I don't know really where that goes because if we get into equity perps, we start to talk about some incumbents, and there's just so much more compliance about all that, but not really, not really, well neither here nor there.
我真正感兴趣的是那种离岸版的股票，背后有真实的代币资产支撑——不是靠预言机报价，也不是完全合成的，而是有链上现货市场真实交易的底层资产，永续合约直接挂钩它。
What I'm really interested in is kinda like the offshore version of equity where there is an underlying token, and so rather the perp instrument quoting an oracle or not really quoting anything and it's just being synthetic, that's different than there being an actual underlying asset that is being traded in spot onchain that is accessible to that PERP instrument.
我关心的就是这个。
That's kinda what I'm interested in.
也许我有点跑题了，不过你能不能跟我讲讲 Ondo Perps，你们那边具体在构建什么样的市场结构？
Maybe maybe I'm getting a little bit ahead of myself, but like talk to me about Ondo Perps and like the specific market structure that you guys are building over there.
你说得对，永续合约确实是个非常优雅的设计。
You know a PERP is a very elegant beautiful instrument to your point.
它本质上是一个由数据驱动的合约，对吧？
It is it means it's a driven object, right?
完全是无抵押的。
It's fully unbacked.
它是一种基于预言机定价的资产合成敞口，你可以清楚知道它的价格。
It's synthetic exposure to an asset that you have an oracle for and you can figure out what the price is.
然后根据你是做多还是做空，还会有一个持续的资金费率，相当于你一直在为持仓付费。但这个产品设计得特别简洁，因为是合成敞口，你只需要用稳定币就能开仓，可以一直持有，不用展期，也没有到期日——这正是很多加密交易员喜欢永续合约的原因。
And then there's a funding rate depending on whether, you know, go long or short, you're basically paying on an ongoing basis to have a position, but it's a beautifully simple prop product because it is synthetic exposure, you can open it just with a stable coin, you can keep it open 20 fourseven, it's got no rollovers, no expiry, that is why so many crypto traders really like the concept of a perpetual future.
但现在的永续合约市场有个问题，就是资本效率很低。
But the problem with the PERP market right now is that it's a pretty capital inefficient product.
我的意思是，尤其是针对现实世界资产，情况往往是这样：比如有人想做多特斯拉。
I mean by that is particularly for real world assets, what ends up happening is, let's say someone wants to go long Tesla.
对吧？
Right?
投资者进来，存入稳定币，然后加10倍杠杆做多特斯拉。
So an investor comes in, they deposit stablecoins, they go 10 x long Tesla.
在这些永续合约平台上，每一个多头都对应着一个空头。
For every long on these per platforms, there's a short.
对吧？
Right?
所以做市商进来，存入稳定币，做空特斯拉。
So a market maker comes in, they deposit stablecoins, they short Tesla.
做市商其实并不想做空，这不符合做市商的本职，他们总是希望对冲风险。
No market maker actually wants to be short, it's not what a market maker does, market makers always wants to be hedged.
于是他们在链下开个经纪账户，用其他资金买入特斯拉股票，用这笔股票来对冲他们在永续合约上的空头头寸。
So they have a brokerage account offchain where they buy the Tesla stock, the brokerage account is funded with whatever else they want, they buy the Tesla stock to offset the short on the PERP.
现在他们确实对冲了，但永续合约平台并不承认这种对冲，因为抵押品全在链下。
Now they're hedged, but they're not hedged in the eyes of the PERP platform because the collateral is all offchain.
所以他们还得准备更多稳定币，以防市场走势对他们不利时追加保证金。
So they need to have more stable coins available to top up their position in case the market moves against them.
结果就形成了一个效率极低的系统，充其量也就50%的资本利用率，对吧？
So you end up with a system that is just not very capital efficient at best, probably 50%, right?
这边一堆稳定币，那边是特斯拉股票，这边又是一堆稳定币。
Bunch of stables here, Tesla stock there, more stables here.
所以问题的关键在于，这会导致做市商不愿意在链上提供流动性，因为他们的资金成本实在太高了。
So the reason why that matters is because it ends up hurting the end liquidity that market makers are willing to put on chain because their cost of capital is very, very high.
没错，他们得把钱锁在一边，另一边还得再锁一笔。
Right, because they have suck up, they have to lock up dollars on one side and on another side.
对。
Correct.
所以你通常看到的个股衍生品流动性都很差，原因就在这儿。
That is why when you typically look at the liquidity particularly on single name equity perks, it's just not very good.
理想情况下，用户进来做多特斯拉十倍，做市商就反向做空特斯拉，直接把代币化的特斯拉作为抵押品存到永续合约平台，这样就完全对冲了，只管收资金费就行。
In an ideal world, what ends up happening is user comes in, they go 10 x long Tesla, market maker comes in, they short Tesla, they deposit, tokenized Tesla as collateral on the per platform itself, now they're fully hedged and they can just collect the funding.
对。
Right.
资本效率几乎能达到百分之百，做市商自然更愿意往平台投入更多资金，因为太省本钱了。
Capital efficiency more or less a 100% and that really enhances the liquidity that any single market maker is willing to put on the platform because it is so much more capital efficient.
流动性一上来，交易者就会跟着增多，正向循环就形成了，市场这才真正进入加速阶段。
And when you get more liquidity, you get more traders, the flywheel becomes real and that's when really the market gets into escape velocity.
我并不是想暗示Trade XYZ和Hyperliquid不成功。
Now I don't mean to imply that Trade XYZ and Hyperliquid have not been successful.
对吧？
Right?
显然它们已经很成功了。
Clearly they have been.
但如果你看单只股票，哪怕是在Trade XYZ上，流动性也还是不够好。
But when you look at single name equities in particular, even on Trade XYZ, the liquidity isn't that great.
这主要是因为我刚才说的这种机制造成的。
And it's primarily because of that dynamic that I just described.
所以，我们将在Ondo Perp平台上支持代币化股票作为抵押品。
So we will be able to support the tokenized stocks as collateral on the Ondo Perp platform.
Ondo Finance开发了这项技术，Ondo Perps是独立实体，注册在海外，只对海外投资者开放，但它的技术跟我们在Ondo Global Markets上做的非常相似——因为我们能大规模地代币化这些资产，因为这些代币化股票作为抵押品本身就有真实流动性，也正因为有真实流动性，我们才能在需要时大规模平仓，对吧。
Ondo Finance built it, Ondo Perps is a separate entity, it is offshore, only available to offshore investors, but the technology is very similar to what we had built for Ondo Global Markets because we can tokenize these things at scale, because there's real liquidity on these tokenized stocks as collateral, and because there's real liquidity in these tokenized stocks as collateral, you can also liquidate them in size, right.
这自然就引出下一个问题：为什么不是所有人都这么做呢？
This is ultimately then the next question of like why doesn't everybody just do this, right.
为什么非得跟金融挂钩不可？
Why does it have to be on the finance?
我觉得原因在于，如果你作为交易所接受任何形式的抵押品，就必须有能力大规模平仓。
And I think the rationale there is if you as an exchange support collateral of any type, you need to be able to liquidate it in size.
否则，交易所就会背上一堆坏账。
Otherwise, as an exchange you're going be saddled up with a bunch of bad debt.
Ondo Finance 是这些代币化股票的发行方。
Ondo Finance is the issuer of the tokenized stocks.
我们直接掌握着这些代币背后的实际资产。
We are literally sitting on the actual backing of the tokens.
所以，要大规模平仓这些资产，相关的通道早就整合进了纽约证券交易所和纳斯达克的系统里。
As a result, liquidating these things in size, the rails to do that have already been built straight into the New York Stock Exchange and the Nasdaq.
对吧？
Right?
这就是为什么这些资产能大规模平仓，而其他永续合约平台却做不到的原因。
That is why these things can be liquidated in size and why other per platforms can't necessarily do that.
明白了。
Okay.
我复述一遍我理解的内容，你来判断我有没有说对。
Let me let me repeat back as you what I understood and you can, you know, tell me I'm smart or tell me I didn't get it.
对于没有底层资产的平台来说，交易双方都是散户，因为永续合约本质上就是个散户工具。
On a per platform that doesn't have an underlying, it's retail versus retail because perps are just a fundamentally like a retail instrument.
如果做多的散户和做空的散户数量对不上，融资利率就会自动调节来平衡。
And, you know, if the retail going long doesn't offset the e retail going short, well then the funding rate, you know, will counterbalance that.
但如果没有做市商介入，这种情况很容易严重偏离正常水平。
But it could get really dislocated because there's not a market maker in the middle.
在没有底层资产的平台上，确实可能有做市商，因为散户对赌散户，总能收得到手续费，至少能吸引一两个做市商。
Maybe there is market makers on a per platform that does not have an underlying because if retail is going against retail, then, you know, there's retail flow to collect fees from, so it's gonna attract some market maker, at least one.
但要吸引大量做市商就很难了，正如你所说，这太重资本了——因为你得能真正做空底层资产，这就需要在券商账户里押上真金白银。
But attracting a scalable amount of market makers is hard to your point because it's just so capital intensive that because you have to be able to go short on the actual underlying, which requires putting up actual real dollars, money in a brokerage somewhere to be able to go short.
我们做的，就是把资产上链，让做市商能在同一个平台上自由地做多或做空，彻底解决这个问题。
So what we're doing is we're solving that problem by bringing the asset onchain, allows market makers to go short or long as needed in the same venue.
而且他们不需要把美元锁定起来，直接用实际的底层资产就行，这正是所需的资金。
And rather than, like, locking up dollars, they're just using the actual underlying, which is the capital that's that's needed.
所以这就像是某种共鸣——当资产和交易都在同一个平台上时，一切都顺理成章。
And so there's, like, a resonance thing, like, the chakras are aligned with the with the asset being on the same platform that they are going along and short on.
因此，他们根本不需要冻结资金。
So they don't need to, like, lock up dollars.
这样一来，多个做市商就能同时进入这个平台，让整个市场流动性大大提升。
And so, like, multiple market makers can come into the same platform and make the whole thing much more liquid.
你刚才说的就是这个意思吧？
Is that that that's what you were saying?
说得太准了。
Nailed it.
除了这个，围绕资金费率，还有没有其他可以构建的金融模块？
Is there other things that can happen with this like just more financial building blocks about around like funding rates and Totally.
我总觉得，那种没有底层资产的永续合约，就像一种单维度的东西，太单一了。
I feel like they like the idea of a perp that does not have an underlying, like one dimensional perps is like one one dimensional.
但一旦把底层资产加进来，整个局面就一下子打开了，因为这个关键的资产实体真正上了链。
And but then you add the underlying there and it like blossoms into like, oh, this whole like landscape of opportunity because this very important puzzle piece of the actual asset is there on chain.
那接下来会怎么发展呢？
Where does this go from here?
我觉得会变得特别有意思，因为只要允许资产作为永续合约的抵押品，就能解锁无数新场景。
Oh, I think it's gonna get very interesting because the moment you enable the asset as collateral on a perp, you just enable so many new use cases.
这能提升流动性，这也是我们一直关注的重点，因为它让平台的资金使用效率高多了。
I mean, the it adds liquidity and that's the part that we've been focusing on because it makes the platform more capital efficient.
但对普通交易者来说，这也是构建投资组合更优雅的方式。
But for your average trader, it's also a much more elegant way to build a portfolio.
比如，你可以存入黄金，同时做多黄金、做空白银，对吧？
Like you can deposit gold, be long gold and short silver, right?
你可以用完全不同的方式来做这种对冲交易。
You can do these types of pair trades in a very different way.
你还能逐步实现机构级的投资组合保证金机制——目前机构能用，但全球散户通常还享受不到。
You can build towards proper portfolio margin that most institutions right now have access to but retail globally typically does not.
这样你就能做到资本效率最大化，为所有人打造真正意义上的主经纪商服务。
So you can go really capital efficient and really bring build towards proper prime brokerage for everyone involved.
你还可以考虑不同的交易策略，或者根据如何使用这些资产，开辟各种收入来源。
You could also think about, you know, just different type of trading strategies or different type of income streams depending on how you use these stocks.
比如，你可以构建一个类似‘Max Seven’的ETF。
So one thing you could do is say, hey, I'm going to construct the equivalent of a max seven ETF.
你把七只核心股票以代币化形式封装起来，让投资者能买入这个Max Seven ETF；更进一步，你甚至可以在周末把这些股票作为抵押品放到永续合约平台，做空它们，赚取融资利息，进行套利交易。
You just have your seven major stocks that you put in there, you put that in tokenized form in a wrapper so that people can buy the max seven ETF, but you could think about potentially juicing the return of that ETF equivalent by maybe over the weekend you take those single stocks and you deposit them on the per platform to actually then use it as a short, collect the funding and do the carry trade, right?
那这样一个Max Seven ETF，周末还能做套利、收融资利息，会是什么样子？
So what does an ETF on the max seven look like where over the weekend you're doing the carry trade and collecting the funding?
这个我还说不准。
I don't know.
但这类玩法，大家很快就会开始尝试，真正打开新的策略空间——无论是主动型还是被动型，加密原生资本都会感兴趣。一旦有人找到真正有效的策略或产品模式，我敢肯定，它很快就会被产品化，甚至推给传统金融机构，就像当初加密ETF那样，被整合进传统券商的体系。
But those are the types of things that people are going to start experimenting with pretty quickly and that really opens up, think, new types of strategies, both active and passive that crypto native capital is gonna be interested in, but if people really find a winning strategy or winning product strategy, I'm pretty sure that's going to get productized and be offered to even TradFi brokerages pretty soon just like we saw with an ETF on a crypto product and you built that into a TradFi brokerage.
用不了多久，人们就能在链上构建出收益远超传统金融的产品组合，把它标准化后，再推向机构资本。
Before you know it, people are going be able to construct different type of product portfolios onchain with a superior return of what you can normally get in TradFi, productize that, and distribute it to institutional capital.
我理解你的意思是，我之前问的是‘接下来会发生什么’？
Kind of what I heard your answer was is I was asking like, you know, what happens next?
如果我们有这两个基础模块，这两个‘粒子’，把它们撞在一起，会冒出什么新东西？
If like we have these two building blocks, these two particles, we smash them together, like what particles come out of that?
我觉得你的回答其实是：老兄，有什么不会冒出来的？
And I think what your answer is like, dude, what particles don't come out of that?
你去看看传统金融里那些ETF吧，主动管理的、被动管理的，这个组合、那个组合，各种杠杆比例，这一切之所以能实现，是因为他们手头真有这些资产，而且有足够的保证金和流动性，能玩出各种花样。
I think if you go go look in TradFi, see all these different ETFs, you know, actively managed, passively managed, like, this bundle, that bundle, these ratios, that amount of leverage, And all of that is made possible by the fact that, a, they literally have all the assets, and, b, they have the margin and the liquidity to be able to kind of formulate any sort of chemistry.
我觉得你表达的是，一旦你有了底层资产，再加上永续合约平台，就会迎来一场爆发——到处都是机会。
And I think what you're saying is, like, well, you once you add the underlyings and you have the perp platform, you do get this like blossoming of like, dude, there's all these opportunities out there.
你只需要一个有创意、有动力的人，把正确的‘粒子’组合起来，满足消费者的需求。
You just need somebody with creativity and motivation to like smash the right particles together that the consumers want.
完全正确。
100%.
未来十二到十八个月，一旦所有这些基础模块都到位了，创新就会大规模爆发，资产管理和财富管理的方式将被彻底重塑。
The next twelve to eighteen months, once all once all these building blocks are in place, is more or less happening right now, people are gonna dramatically innovate in how asset management and even wealth management is done.
对吧？
Right?
我认为这确实是所有这些代币化股票、ETF、预测市场、大宗商品和权益平台的下一个前沿。
I think that really is the next frontier for all these tokenized stocks, ETFs, prediction markets, commodities, perks platforms, and the like.
这将如何影响资产管理、财富管理以及产品策略？
How does that feed into asset management, wealth management, product strategies?
有些人从根本上看好永续合约。
There's some people out there who are just fundamentally bullish, the perpetual.
你看好永续合约吗？我是说像传统金融、华尔街那样的方式？
Are you bullish, the perpetual, as in like TradFi, Wall Street?
我敢肯定期权会一直存在下去。
You know, I'm sure options are gonna stick around.
它们已经存在很久了，而且非常出色。
They've been here for They're great.
有些人特别喜欢它们。
You know, some people love them.
他们有林德。
They have Linde.
但永续合约正在进入，作为一种金融工具，它正加入到金融产品的行列中。
But the perpetual's coming in, and as an instrument, it's it's entering the arena of financial instruments.
也许目前永续合约的渗透率只有1%，未来可能达到4%、8%。
You know, maybe we're at 1% penetration of perpetual, maybe we get to 4%, maybe 8%.
有些人却坚持说，不不不，我们最终会成为主流。
Some people are like, no no no no, we're going the majority.
就像大多数东西都会转向永续合约一样。
Like most thing most things are getting perped.
你对永续合约在更广泛金融领域中的普及程度有多看好？不是说加密货币内部，毕竟永续合约在加密市场已经表现得很好了。
How how bullish are you on the perp in just, like, penetrating the world, not even about crypto, because, the perp's done pretty well in crypto.
现在在某些市场，永续合约的交易量已经占到90%，现货只占10%，具体看你怎么算。
Like, we're at, like, 90% perp's volumes versus 10% spot, depending on how you count it.
但我们还得想想，金融世界的其他部分该怎么看待这个问题。
But, like, we have the rest of the world to, like, talk about when it comes to finance.
你对永续合约怎么看？
How bullish are you on the perp?
说实话，我对永续合约挺看好的。
I'm pretty bullish on the perp to be honest.
这得看你的投资时间跨度了。
It depends a little bit on your time horizon.
对吧？
Right?
我们说的是两年、五年，还是十年？
Are we talking two years, five years, ten years?
确实如此。
But Yeah.
我们讨论的是十年期的前景。
We're perp talking ten We're talking ten years.
没错。
Right.
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是的。
Yeah.
从产品类别来看，我不明白为什么永续合约不能发展到和期权市场一样大的规模。
As a as a product category, I don't see why a perp wouldn't be able to grow into a same size as like the options market.
这只不过是另一种方式，让你对个股实现杠杆交易。
I mean, it's just a very different way to get leverage on an instrument on on an actual stock.
期权的好处是，你永远不会被强平。
I mean, the benefit of an option is you're never gonna get liquidated on it.
对。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
但期权对普通散户来说太难理解了。
But options are very difficult to understand for the normal retail.
亏钱不就算被强平了吗？
Doesn't doesn't being out of the money count as a liquidation?
话虽如此，你确实也能这么讲。
I mean, you could argue that too.
没错。
Yes.
是的。
Yeah.
你并不会
You don't
如果你的投资血本无归，那才叫爆仓。
get your money, if you get $0 back on your investment, that's the liquidation.
某种程度上，这其实是个二元结果。
I mean, it's a binary bit in a way.
对吧？
Right?
但至少在市场波动加剧、临近到期时，你不会因为市场波动而爆仓——而期货就不同了。
But at least as the volatility in the market, as you approach that expiry, you're not going to get liquidated by volatility in the market, which you would on a perp.
有道理。
Fair.
这么说的话，期权确实挺不错的。
So, you know, in that sense, options are great.
永续合约也很棒，毕竟简单明了，对吧？
Perps are pretty great because they're just so simple, right?
而且它们本质上已经是24/7的交易产品了。
And they're synthetic 20 fourseven already.
人人都能大概理解。
Everyone can kind of understand it.
现在的永续合约还不算完美。
Perps aren't perfect right now.
整个ABL机制之类的确实有不少问题，但我相信我们还会不断找到更好的解决方案，比如用代币化的股票作为抵押来提升资本效率，诸如此类的方法。
Whole ABL mechanism and the like is not great, but I'm pretty sure we're going to continue to find some better workarounds, better capital efficiency via tokenized stock as collateral, all these sorts of things.
所以我觉得永续合约完全有可能发展成一个成熟的品类，而现货本身也值得单独关注。
So I think perps can really grow into a pretty mature category and then spot as a thing in and of itself is also interesting.
这太乱了。
That's a mess.
这简直就是金融危机2.0。
Financial crisis two point o right there.
根本没什么现实，只有衍生品。
There's no reality, there's only derivative.
是的。
Yeah.
不是。
No.
我不至于走到那一步，但我认为永续合约是一种非常优雅的工具，完全能成为一个独立的产品类别。
And so I don't I don't go that far but I think a PERP is a very elegant instrument and will be really a product category in and of itself.
我还有一个关于永续合约的重大疑问。
Another big question I have about the PERP.
你觉得永续合约本质上是面向散户的工具吗？
It's like, do believe that the PERP is fundamentally a retail instrument.
它是面向普通投资者的。
It's retail oriented.
杠杆高，全天候、全年无休。
It's high leverage, it's twenty four seven, three sixty five.
但其他金融领域也会跟上，因为零售端先带起了势头，之后才慢慢超越了零售的范畴。
And but but the rest of finance can come because retail is there, so then it evolves beyond retail because retail kind of bootstrapped it.
我另一个大疑问是，PERP 本质上是不是一个离岸产品？
The other the other big question I have is, like, is the perp fundamentally an offshore instrument?
它在没有监管、没有流动性限制、也不受资产类型或交易场所约束时，表现才最出色。
Like, it just does better when it's not regulated and there aren't constraints on liquidity or what asset it can PERP or what venue it can be on.
境内版本的 PERP，无论好坏，都远不如离岸版本那么灵活和强大。
Like, the the internal to the onshore version of PERPs is just not going to be as expressive and as powerful for better or for worse than the offshore perp.
你同意这个观点吗？
Do you agree with this?
我的意思是，确实有这方面的因素。
I mean, there's yeah.
一旦你进入美国市场，任何类型的衍生品合约都会面临不同的监管，尤其是面向散户的时候，对吧？
There's gonna be different regulations the moment you come into The US on any type of derivative contract, particularly if you offer it to retail as well, right?
美国对散户的杠杆上限
The caps that are on retail leverage in The U.
要低得多
S.
相比离岸市场来说。
Are much lower than what is available offshore.
你当然可以说这既有好处也有坏处，对吧？
Now you could argue that's both good and bad, right?
咱们先不谈价值判断，但我觉得结果就是，离岸市场会持续存在，而岸内市场也会逐渐发展起来，两者会非常不同。
Try to stay away from those value judgment, but I do think as a result, you'll continue to see an offshore market and you'll over time see an onshore market and they will be very different.
岸内市场的优势在于完全受监管，随之而来的是各种保护机制。
The benefit of the onshore market is that it's fully regulated and that comes with different types of protections.
离岸市场监管较少，因此杠杆可以更高，类似这样的特点，有人喜欢，也有人不感兴趣。
Offshore, it is more not regulated and as a result, leverage can be higher and the like, some people like that, some people don't.
所以这两个市场会并存，这本身是好事。
So both markets will coexist and that in and of itself is good.
不过我觉得美国得留意，规则别定得太死，不然没法跟离岸市场竞争。
I think as the what The US needs to be mindful of though is that the rules and regulations are not too restrictive that they can't compete with the offshore market.
我现在在代币化股票这个领域，也看到了类似的态势。
It's a very similar dynamic that I'm starting to see just in tokenized stocks more broadly.
目前所有这类现货包装产品，Ondo是领头的，全都在离岸市场。
Right now all of these spot wrappers that Ondo is the category leader in, they're all offshore.
有些其他司法管辖区已经对这类包装产品建立了完整的监管框架，但在美国，‘包装’这个概念根本不存在。
And there are other jurisdictions where there is a full regulatory framework for these wrappers, but in The US, the wrapper as a concept does not exist.
对吧？
Right?
就连允许第三方托管发行这种事，都还在争论，而这跟我们做的包装产品非常相似。
And there's even debate around allowing what they call third party custodial issuance, which is very similar to what we do with the wrappers.
我觉得美国有时候得花点时间看看离岸市场，了解那里已经有哪些成熟的东西、怎么监管的，这样才能把握好自己监管框架的边界，别把自己搞得太没竞争力。
I think The US at times needs to make sure it spends enough time looking offshore and what is already available offshore and what is regulated offshore to better understand how far can they push their own frameworks that they do not become not competitive, right?
在美国，由于现有玩家的影响力，他们并不希望太多创新，只想维持现状，所以就算定再多规则也没用。
Because you can put all the rules in place in The US because of the dynamics with the incumbents and the incumbents don't want too much innovation and they want to keep the system as it is right now.
但终究你得看看现实，这个市场早就跑到海外去了。
But to at some point you got to look around and say, well, this market is already offshore.
而且海外的发展势头越来越猛。
It is very much growing.
你是想在全球竞争，还是不想？
Do you want to compete globally or not?
如果真想竞争，就得允许一些可能让人不舒服的模式，不然根本没法跟别人比。
And if you are, you're going to have to allow certain models that maybe are uncomfortable but otherwise you can't compete.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
不。
No.
这话说得通。
That all that makes sense.
我们现在确实有一些明智的监管者，或许可以抓住这个机会。
We do have some sensible regulators at this moment, and maybe we can take advantage of the opportunity.
我想聊聊Ondo永续合约这个项目。
I wanna pop up in the hood about Ondo Perps.
这到底是什么东西？
What actually is it?
它是怎么构建的？
How is it built?
它是基于区块链的吗？
Was it on a blockchain?
具体是怎么运作的？
Like how does it work?
是的，Ondo Perps 的交易执行完全在链下进行。
Yeah, so it is the execution of Ondo Perps lives entirely offchain.
所以，到底是把系统完全建在链上还是链下，中间有很多权衡要考虑。
So there's a lot of trade offs to be made whether you build something fully onchain or offchain.
现在大多数区块链的问题在于，执行速度跟中心化环境比起来根本跟不上。
The problem right now with most blockchains is that the execution speed, at least relative to what you can get in a centralized environment is just not there.
对吧？
Right?
你看中心化平台，延迟两百毫秒都算慢了，而像 Hyperliquid 这样的区块链，延迟都要六百毫秒。
When you look at centralized environments two hundred milliseconds and below, even on a blockchain, even on a hyperliquid, you're looking at six hundred milliseconds.
这个速度勉强能接受，但如果你还想做更复杂的计算，比如保证金、多资产抵押之类的，就快碰到区块链的性能天花板了。
That's fine ish, but if you then wanna do more complicated calculations, including margin, multi asset collateral, and the like, you're starting to bump up to what a blockchain can handle.
另外，完全用公链的缺点是，根本没法保障隐私。
The other downside of going full public blockchain is the privacy that, you know, it does not enable essentially.
对。
Mhmm.
所以要在可组合性——这是公链的优势——和结算确定性、系统性能以及隐私之间找到平衡，确实需要权衡。
So finding the right balance between composability, which is where public blockchain shine and settlement finality, as well as the performance of the thing and the privacy, there's a little bit there's trade offs to be made.
对。
So Mhmm.
Ondo Perps 将支持从多个区块链进行存取款。
Ondo Perps is going to allow deposit and withdrawals from multiple chains.
交易执行本身是在链下进行的，因此存取款也完全在链下处理。
The execution itself lives offchain, so the deposit and withdrawals are fully offchain.
交易执行虽然在链下，但通过验证者模型实现了去中心化。
The execution itself lives offchain, but the execution is decentralized via a tester model.
我们运行交易所的代码由多个实体共同托管。
So the code that we run the exchange on is hosted by multiple entities.
你可以把它们比作区块链节点，但仅限于执行部分，而不是结算部分，因为使用中心化交易所的缺点是，你往往不清楚撮合引擎内部到底发生了什么。
You can always compare them to blockchain nodes but only the, you know, execution component not the settlement component because what you do also then want to be mindful of in the downside of the centralized exchange model is that you don't necessarily know what happens in the matching engine.
没错。
Right.
你并不清楚跟你交易的到底是谁。
You don't necessarily know who you're trading against.
没错。
Right.
而且你把太多问题都压在信任上了。
And you're placing a lot of issue.
信任。
Trust.
完全正确。
100.
为了解决这个问题，我们把代码开放给多个验证方，确保他们能核实执行引擎内部实际运行的代码。
So in order to account for that too, we are making our code available to multiple testers to make sure that they can verify the actual code that is happening inside the execution engine.
我们也不能单方面修改代码，否则就等于卷款跑路了，对吧？
We also can't unilaterally change the code and as a result RUG our users, Right?
所以这并不是托管模式，而是自托管模式。
So it's not a custodial setup on the purposes of self custodial setup.
真的很棒。
Really neat.
没错。
Yeah.
说白了，这是一种混合模式，介于完全中心化的交易所和完全公开的无许可区块链之间。
So there are it's kind of a hybrid model quite frankly between a full centralized centralized exchange type model and a full public permissionless blockchain.
我们努力找到一个合适的中间点：用户不必信任我们来保障资金安全和撮合引擎的完整性，但我们会把执行放在链下，以保护隐私并获得最佳性能。
We try to like find that right intermediary in the middle where a user does not have to place their trust in us for the security of their funds and the security of the and the integrity of the matching engine, but we do offchain execution in order to preserve privacy and get the best performance.
明白了。
Okay.
你们是怎么做到的？
How did you do that?
这跟二层方案看起来挺像的，至少你们的产品有相似之处——你们有中心化的排序器，因为你们的系统里有中心化的撮合组件。
Because this seems very overlapping at least in the product that you were offering with a layer two, in that it's, you know, a centralized sequencer because you have centralized components, centralized matching.
你们是非托管的，就像二层方案一样。
You're non custodial just like a layer two.
你们本身并不是一条区块链。
You're not a blockchain though.
那你们是怎么做到的？
So how how do you do this?
我们称之为安全围栏模式。
We call it a secure enclave model.
这其实是一项由一家叫Enclave Markets的初创公司率先试点的技术。
It's actually a technology that a that a startup called Enclave Markets had piloted.
他们已经运营这项技术好一段时间了，后来今年早些时候被Ondo收购了。
They've been around for a while running this for a while, but Ondo acquired them earlier this year.
基本上是为了
Basically To
做这件事？
do this?
就是为了做这件事。
To do exactly this.
就是为了做这件事。
To do exactly this.
不是。
No.
我以前从来没听说过这个。
I have never heard of this before.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，确实不是。
I mean, it's No.
还没人打造过新的
No one's built a new
一辈子都没见过。
in my life.
是的。
Yeah.
这其实是两者之间一种相当独特的结合。
It's pretty it's a pretty unique blend between the two.
随着时间推移，我们的理念一直很明确：尽可能把所有东西都放在公链上做。
Now over time, I think our our philosophy has always been we wanna do as much as possible on public blockchains, quite frankly.
对。
Mhmm.
因为我们确实相信各种组件之间的可组合性。
Because we do believe in the composability of things.
我们每次推出资产都会部署在多个区块链上，还会专门做封装，确保能无缝接入DeFi生态，而不是用原生模式。
We always launch our, you know, assets on multiple blockchains, really make we do the wrappers to make sure that we can integrate into DEFI, right, we don't do the native model.
所以我们从根本上相信，所有东西都应该尽可能无许可、可组合。
So we fundamentally believe in having everything be as permissionless as possible and composable as possible.
不过考虑到性能和隐私的权衡，目前这种带安全围栏、多个验证节点的模式，算是兼顾了两方面的优势；等技术再成熟一点，我们会逐步把更多功能迁移到公链上。
But given the performance and privacy trade offs, we do believe that this current model with a secure enclave multiple of testers is kind of the best of both worlds, but over time we'll shift as much as we can onto public blockchains as the tech matures.
那为什么不直接用你自己的资产，在Hyperliquid上做个HIP-3部署呢？
Why not just become an HIP three deployer on Hyperliquid using your own assets?
是的。
Yeah.
我们一直认为，掌控更多技术栈是更好的选择。
I think we've always believed in owning more of the stack
说实话，HIP3确实不错。
quite frankly because you know HIP three is good.
Hyperliquid的表现非常出色，从交易量和历史记录来看都很亮眼，但每个仓位都会完全公开。
Hyperliquid is very good clearly given their volume and track record but every single position is going be fully public.
对吧？
Right?
并不是所有基金，也不是所有机构都愿意接受这一点。
Not all funds, not all institutional funds want that.
延迟是六百毫秒。
The latency is at six hundred millisecond.
这还算可以，但不像币安那样快，而且也不支持多资产抵押。像这种代币化的股票作为抵押品，再整合进保证金系统，我们在Hyperliquid上是做不到的，对吧？
That's okay but it's not as fast as say a Binance and multi asset collateral, so this whole tokenized stock is collateral for the purpose and integrating that into the margin engine, we wouldn't be able to do on Hyperliquid, right?
Hyperliquid 支持多种资产作为抵押，但主要还是以比特币和稳定币为主。
Hyperliquid supports multi asset collateral but it's high Bitcoin and stable.
他们不支持代币化的股票。
They don't support tokenized stock.
所以我们想自己掌控保证金系统，以便上线这些代币化股票；但要做到这一点，就必须从头到尾完全掌控整个技术栈。
So we wanna be able to control the actual margin engine to be able to list these tokenized stocks but in order to do that, we need to own the full stack end to end.
我明白了。
I see.
Hyperliquid 确实没法像 Ondo 那样，对使用 Ondo 股票作为抵押品提供同等程度的保障。
I see Hyperliquid can't have the same level of assurances of using Ondo stocks as collateral as Ondo can.
而 Ondo 的整个商业模式就是做自己的产品，因此他们能确保用自身资产提供抵押和杠杆服务。
Therefore, Ondo can as being its whole business model is its own product, can have the assurances to offer, you know, collateral and margin using your guys' own assets.
所以，把技术栈的不同环节垂直整合起来，确实存在一些协同效应。
So And there's some, synergies about just vertically integrating different parts of the stack.
完全正确。
100%.
我们掌握着这些股票的底层资产，而不是Hyperliquid。
We sit on the backing of the stocks, not Hyperliquid.
对。
Right.
没错。
Yes.
明白了。
Okay.
有意思。
Interesting.
Ondo Perps什么时候上线？
When does Ondo Perps open up?
我们上周刚开启了公开测试版。
We had public beta last week.
全面正式上线预计就在接下来的几周内。
The full general availability will come in the next couple of weeks.
说实话，我们看到的需求已经远远超出了预期。
We've already seen quite frankly more demand on this than we had anticipated if I'm being honest.
所以多出这几周时间来确保平台足够稳定，真的很有帮助。
So having those extra weeks to fully make sure the platform is robust is very helpful.
不过，接下来几周我们就会正式开放，到时候大家都能用上单只股票的永续合约，流动性完全不用担心。
But, yeah, we'll open it up in the next couple of weeks for general availability so that everyone is gonna be able to have all the liquidity you want to do perps on single name equities.
Ondo Perps上线的目标很明确，尤其是在股票永续合约这块，流动性一定要超过Hyperliquid和Trade XYZ。
So at launch, aspiration for Ondo Perks for sure is to have better liquidity than Hyperliquid and Trade XYZ on equities in particular.
到目前为止，使用公测版的客户主要是哪些人？
Who who are the customers that are using it at least so far on the the public beta?
是散户投机者为主，还是也有基金？
Is it like just retail speculators, funds?
你们的用户到底都是些什么人？
Who's who who are your users?
各种类型的都有。
A little bit of everything.
离岸零售用户特别喜欢，因为我们的模式让我们能快速上线一大批资产。
So the offshore retail really likes it because we can list a bunch of assets quite quickly given our model.
所以市场活跃，流动性也很好。
So there's good markets with good liquidity.
做市商也非常青睐，因为他们的资本效率大幅提升。
Market makers like it a lot because they their capital efficiency is significantly better.
对机构投资者来说，情况也是一样。
And then same thing for the really the institutional players.
可以说是两者的结合。
It's kind of like a combination of both.
他们既能利用这些新型策略，比如套利交易，想做什么就做什么，同时还能获得深厚的流动性，无论是做多还是做空都游刃有余。
They can tap into these new types of strategies, the carry trade, whatever they want to do, as well as really have deep liquidity to, you know, go long short, whatever it is.
大家好，Bankless 的朋友们。
Hey, Bankless Nation.
我是大卫。
It's David.
如果你正在听这段内容，说明你正在收听免费的 Bankless 播客频道。
If you're hearing this, that's because you are listening to the free Bankless podcast feed.
你知道吗？Bankless 还有一个付费的 RSS 订阅源。
Did you know that there is a premium Bankless RSS feed?
付费频道里有我为个人研究专门做的额外访谈，会深入探讨一些关于加密行业的问题，这些问题我想搞清楚，好让自己在 Bankless Ventures 的投资，以及我个人的投资组合里更有把握。
The premium feed has extra interviews that I do for my own personal research and just deeper questions that I want answered about the crypto industry, questions that I want to answer so I can be more informed as an investor both at Banklist Ventures and also just in my own personal portfolio too.
而且付费版没有广告，也就是说，如果你选择听付费版而不是免费版，每年能省下大约二十个小时。因为你支持了 Bankless，我们才得以持续运作。如果你想要更多内容、避开广告，或者只是认可我们的工作、希望我们继续做下去，欢迎订阅 Bankless Premium，详情链接在节目笔记里。
Also, there are no ads, which means if you listen to the premium feed instead of the free feed, you'll get about twenty hours of your life back every year because you choose to support Banklist So if you're interested in getting extra content all while skipping the ads or you just appreciate what we do here and want us to keep doing it, we'd appreciate it if you signed up for Banklist Premium, and there is a link in the show notes to get started.
祝大家 2026 年一切顺利。
Cheers to a good 2026.
Ian，我想跟你聊聊我最近的一个担忧。
Ian, I wanna ask you about a worry that I have.
我们现在有这些大型传统市场，比如纳斯达克、纽约证券交易所。
We have, like, these these big markets that pre you know, the preexisting markets, the Nasdaq, the New York Stock Exchange.
它们都在试探性地涉足区块链、加密货币，以及代币化的现实资产。
They're all dabbling in blockchain, crypto, tokenized real world asset stuff.
他们看到了其中的潜力。
They they see the potential.
他们心想：我们可不会让那些加密圈的人来替我们做事。
They are like, well, we're not gonna let crypto bros do our job.
我们要自己来做。
We're gonna do our job.
于是他们都在各自试探，慢慢尝试，看看怎么把袜子代币化，怎么在区块链上完成结算。
And so each one of them is kind of experimenting, dipping their toes, getting their feet wet with how to do tokenized socks, how to, like, settle on a blockchain.
我担心的是，这些老牌机构会故意阻挠原生的加密生态，比如纽约证券交易所自己搞了一条私有区块链。
What I'm worried about is that the people, the incumbents, kind of just, like, run interference on the crypto native ecosystem, and, you know, the New York Stock Exchange is building its own internal blockchain.
纳斯达克也在搞自己的资产代币化系统。
The Nasdaq is doing its own internal stock tokenization.
说实话，我不希望他们赢。
I don't I don't want them to win, honestly.
我希望像你们这样的人能赢。
I want people like you guys to win.
我希望股票能上以太坊，而不是纽约证券交易所自建的私有链。
I want the stocks to come on Ethereum, not private New York Stock Exchange chain.
我担心他们搞的是‘区块链但不是比特币’这一套，虽然这套说法已经死过上万次了，但下一次死亡可没那么容易。
I'm worried that they're doing the blockchain not Bitcoin thing, And while blockchain not Bitcoin has died ten thousand deaths, the next death is not guaranteed.
所以我挺担心那些老牌机构会抢先下手，阻挠一些原生加密项目的发展。
And so I'm kinda worried about the incumbents, kinda just like front running and running interference on some of the crypto native stuff.
你有这种担忧吗？还是你能打消我的顾虑？
Do you worry about that, or can you quell my fears here?
是的。
Yeah.
让我换个角度说，我根本不怕这个。
Let me try to reframe because I'm not worried about this at all.
明白。
Okay.
好的。
Cool.
事实上，纽交所和纳斯达克越能转向全天候交易，对我们越有利。
In fact, the more New York Stock Exchange and NASDAQ can move towards twenty four seven markets, the better for us.
因为现在，作为这些资产的代币化发行方，我们主要得担心链上和链下之间的流动性错配问题。
Because right now, there's this weird as an as a tokenizer, as an issuer of these things, the main thing we have to worry about is liquidity mismatch, right, between onchain and offchain.
因为我们有这些在以太坊和其他公有链上自由流通的代币化股票。
Because we have these tokenized stocks that are freely circulating on Ethereum and other public blockchains.
目前我们只能支持每周七天、每天二十四小时中的五天进行铸造，做不到全天候。
Right now we can only support minting twenty four five, not twenty four seven.
为什么？
Why?
因为纽约证券交易所和纳斯达克，对吧？
Because the New York Stock Exchange and the NASDAQ Right.
周末是休市的。
Are closed over the weekend.
但链上有很多交易员，特别是在去中心化金融领域，对吧？如果你想在周末进行去中心化金融的清算，理想情况下，你肯定也希望能在周末完成赎回和铸造操作。
But a bunch of traders onchain particularly in DEFI, right, if you wanna do DEFI liquidations over the weekend, ideally you really wanna be able to, you know, do that and do redemptions and minting over the weekend as well.
所以我们需要纽约证券交易所和纳斯达克开通周末交易，而他们正用私有区块链技术来实现这一点。
So we need the New York Stock Exchange and the NASDAQ in order to turn on weekend markets and they're doing that on private blockchain technology.
但不管是公有链还是私有链，我明白他们为什么选私有链——其实就是为了更快，相当于把交易移到链下。
But you know, it's public or private, I mean, I understand why these guys are doing it on private blockchain technology, it's essentially just saying offchain because it's faster.
对吧？
Right?
这没问题。
That's fine.
但一旦他们开了周末交易，我认为Ondo会成为这个生态里的重要客户，因为这些人根本不会快速开展面向散户的离岸分销。
But once they turn on their weekend trading, I think Ondo will be one of the larger clients in that ecosystem because we these guys are not gonna do offshore retail distribution in a rapid format.
这根本不是他们的模式。
That's just not their model.
他们只想在周末打造有流动性的交易市场。
They're gonna focus on creating liquid markets over the weekend.
然后Ondo就可以顺势说：非常感谢。
And then an Ondo can come in and say, thank you very much.
我在以太坊上有个买家，或者有个DEFIRE协议需要在周六凌晨两点平仓。
I've got a buyer on Ethereum or I've got a DEFIRE protocol that needs to liquidate a position Saturday 2AM.
我其实可以直接在纳斯达克买卖底层资产，现在技术已经到位了。
I'm gonna actually buy or sell the underlying on the NASDAQ and I can do that now because they've built the tech.
说实话，这对整个生态和Ondo作为他们的客户都很有帮助，因为我们有一批用户和生态，真正需要7x24小时的市场，跟他们大多数客户不一样。
So I think this all quite frankly helps the ecosystem and Ondo as a client to them is quite interesting to them too because we have a user base and an ecosystem that actually demands twenty four seven markets contrary to most of their traffic clients.
明白了。
Okay.
我原本以为，他们看到这里面的价值，就会想着自己动手，直接原生做出来。
So my mental model was that, you know, they they see all the value and they're like, well, let me go and build that value for myself and just do this, you know, natively.
但你的意思是，不是这样的。
What your answer is like, oh, no.
他们还是会去做这件事。
They're going to do the thing.
不管公有链还是私有链，他们都会把股票代币化上链。
They're gonna tokenize stocks on the blockchain whether it's public or private or whatever.
但我，也就是Ondo，才是他们主要的服务对象，我会利用他们所构建的价值，这其实是相辅相成，而不是竞争关系。
But I, me, Ondo, am the main target customer of that and I'm going to leverage the value of whatever they're building and that's actually synergistic not competitive.
完全正确。
Totally.
他们只是在重建一套基础设施，而这正是24/7世界迫切需要的。
They're just doing an infrastructure rebuild that is much needed for a 20 fourseven world.
我们正在通过封装层构建分发渠道和DeFi集成。
We are building distribution reels and DEFI integrations via the wrapper.
不错。
Cool.
两件事很不一样，但彼此高度互补。
Two very different things, but very synergistic.
好的，兄弟。
Alright, man.
Ian，还有很多东西等着去搭建呢。
Ian, there's a lot out there to build.
那我就不多打扰你了，让你回去工作吧。
So maybe I need to to let you get back to work.
不过在你走之前，能不能跟我聊聊？你们Ondo对2026年最大的期待是什么？
Before I let you go though, just, like, talk to me about, like, what you guys what Ondo say say Ondo achieves his wildest hopes and dreams for 2026.
到2026年底，你们希望看到Ondo变成什么样？
What does the end of 2026 look like for your you guys?
你们对Ondo的未来，还有整个行业的发展，有什么样的展望？
What's your guys' just, like, kinda outlook about Ondo and also where you hope the industry will be?
是的。
Yeah.
到年底，我们希望能做到十五亿到二十亿美元的代币化股票规模。
I think by the end of the year, we wanna have, you know, call it billion and a half, ideally 2,000,000,000 in tokenized stocks.
我知道这听起来有点理想化，对吧？
Now I'm being really aspirational, right?
但我们的方向很明确：继续扩大代币化股票业务，深化DeFi整合，同时把Ondo永续合约彻底上线，提供充足的流动性，把平台做大。
But I think continuing to grow on the tokenized stock product, more DEFI integrations and the like, We wanna have Ondo Perps fully shipped, general availability with deep liquidity and grow that platform.
同时，我们还要推出奥ndo的投资策略或投资组合产品，让第三方资产管理人能用我们的平台，或者我们自己推出策略，真正切入更广泛的资产管理与财富管理场景。
And then in parallel also launch these, you know, Ondo strategies or portfolio products, right, that third party asset managers can leverage our platform or we can launch our own strategies to really start going after broader asset management and wealth management use cases.
如果这三大核心板块都能实现，到2026年底我肯定特别满足，而2027年可能会精彩得不得了。
I think if we can put those three big building blocks together, I'll be a very happy man by the end of twenty twenty six, and then 2027 is gonna be wild.
2027年一定会很精彩。
In 2027 is gonna be wild.
我希望2027年能精彩纷呈。
I hope 2027 is wild.
看到我们在这个行业里辛辛苦苦搭建了十几年的基础设施，终于开始真正发挥作用，真的挺让人振奋的。
It is pretty cool to see the infrastructure that we have been building in this industry for, oh, like, over fifteen years now actually doing the thing.
这确实让人感到焕然一新。
And so that is that is refreshing.
这真的很棒。
That's pretty cool.
你们正在开拓前沿，感谢你们所做的一切。
You guys are there building on their frontiers, so thank you for everything you're doing.
在你走之前，我还想和你聊最后一个话题。
Before I let you go, there is one last topic I wanna talk to you about.
上次你上节目时，是和纳森·艾尔曼一起的，但他这次没来。
The last time you were on the episode on the show, you were joined with somebody who is missing from this episode, Nathan Allman.
他不幸去世了。
He unfortunately passed away.
我不太清楚具体情况。
I I I don't know the details.
我也没去查过。
I I haven't looked into them.
也许这些事是私人的吧。
May may maybe they're private.
他是个很棒的嘉宾，你能聊聊纳森吗？说说他对Ondo的意义，或者任何你想分享的关于他的事。
But he was a great guest, and maybe maybe just talk a little bit about about Nathan and what he meant for Ondo and just anything else you want to share about Nathan.
哦，是啊。
Oh, yeah.
这真的是巨大的损失。
I mean, it's a huge loss.
Nathan 是一切的开创者。
Nathan was the guy who started it all.
正是他让我进入了这个领域，至少是进入了 Ondo。
Was the one who also got me into the space or at least within Ondo.
我记得三年前第一次见他时，我现在说的这些，他早就已经规划好了。
But I remember meeting him about three years ago and everything that I'm talking about now he had already laid out.
他对这个领域未来的发展方向了如指掌。
He knew exactly where this space was going.
你一定会被深深怀念。
So you will be dearly missed.
他是一位非凡的创始人。
He was an exceptional founder.
他的产品愿景，就是把所有可能发生的未来都一一实现了。
He had the most, you know, his product vision of everything that could happen is happening.
他极具远见，但最让人意外的是，他的才华竟与他的谦逊不相上下。
He was incredibly prescient but the weirdest thing about him was that his brilliance was really only matched by his humility.
他非常谦逊，因为他深知，在加密世界里，谁也无法预料未来会发生什么。
He was incredibly humble because he also then realized that you never know what happens, particularly in crypto.
所以他总是愿意倾听别人的想法，确保自己的假设经得起推敲。
So he always wanted to hear from others what they thought to make sure that his own assumptions were always pressure tested.
他一定会被深深怀念。
He will be very much missed.
他不仅是个非凡的创始人，更难得的是，他的愿景如此清晰，以至于我们的产品路线图也变得无比明确。
He was an exceptional person, not just an exceptional founder, but the benefit of him as a founder was that his vision was so crystal clear that our product roadmap is also crystal clear.
我们知道该专注什么才能让他欣慰，但说实话，这过程确实很艰难。
So we know exactly what to focus on to make him proud, but it's been obviously pretty challenging.
他去世那周，我和他母亲聊过，情绪自然非常沉重。
I had a conversation with his mother, the week that he passed away, obviously pretty emotional.
但她对我们整个团队说了一句话：‘把油门踩到底’，因为她明白，时间不等人。
But the the one thing she also said to us and the entire team was Ian two feet on the gas pedal because she understands there's no time to lose, right?
现在人人都在抢着入场做代币化股票和永续合约，真的不能再拖了。
Everyone and their mother is getting into tokenized stocks and perps so there really is no time to lose.
所以整个团队都充满干劲，一定要把他的愿景变成现实，让他感到骄傲，把Ondo做到最好。
So everyone at the team is extraordinarily motivated to make his vision come to life, to make him proud, and to make Ondo the best it can be.
我很抱歉。
Well, I'm sorry.
为你们的损失深表哀悼。
Sorry for your guys' loss.
我知道失去一位创始人，尤其是像你这样和他朝夕相处的人，远不止是失去一位老板。
I know losing a founder, especially for you who's worked with him so closely, is something more than just losing a founder.
这更像是失去了一位兄弟，甚至更亲近的人。
It's it's losing a brother or something closer to that.
但我想，我们能做的最好的事，就是把股票上链。
But I think maybe the best thing that we can all do is get stocks on chain.
说得好。
There you go.
因为这就是他想要的。
Because that's what he wanted.
这正是他希望看到的。
That's what he wanted.
没错。
That's right.
确实是他想要的。
That is what he wanted.
伊恩，谢谢你今天来参加节目。
Ian, thanks for coming on the show today.
祝你们下半年一切顺利。
Wish you guys the best in the second half of the year.
你们是最早布局链上现实资产、链上股票的，现在整个行业都在跟上你们的步伐。
And you guys have been early to real world assets on chain to stocks on chain, and now the world's coming to you.
所以，祝愿你们今年剩下的时间一切顺利，也期待你们在充满希望的2027年再创佳绩。
And so I wish you guys the best for the remainder of this year and onto a very exciting 2027.
谢谢，大卫。
Thanks, David.
非常感谢。
Much appreciated.
Bankflation，你们都懂的。
Bankflation, you guys know the deal.
加密货币有风险。
Crypto is risky.
你投进去的钱可能会亏掉，但这就是前沿。
You can lose what you put in, but this is the frontier.
不是每个人都能接受，很高兴你们一路陪着我们走《Bankless旅程》。
It's not for everyone, and we're glad you're with us on The Bankless Journey.
非常感谢。
Thanks a lot.
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