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无银行化。
Banklessation.
我今天邀请到了卡恩·萨罗亚。
I'm here with Karn Saroya.
他是RE公司的创始人兼首席执行官。
He is the founder and CEO at RE.
卡恩，欢迎来到节目。
Karn, welcome to the show.
谢谢你们邀请我。
Thanks for having me.
非常感谢。
Appreciate it.
今天在播客里，我们还请来了一位特别嘉宾。
And, back on the podcast today, we're getting some extra help here.
来自Electric Capital的阿维卡尔，他是RE的投资人。
Avichal from Electric Capital who is an investor in Re.
Avichal，欢迎再次做客我们的播客。
Avichal, welcome back to the podcast.
很高兴见到你。
Good to see man.
谢谢邀请我们。
Thanks for having us.
Karn，我先问个简单的问题。
Karn, I'll just start you off with the easy layup.
Re 到底是做什么的？
What is Re?
是的。
Yeah.
我们是一家链上再保险公司。
We're we're an onchain reinsurer.
我们接收稳定币。
We take in stablecoins.
这些稳定币主要流向了美国的保险公司。
Those stablecoins find their way to primarily US insurance companies.
资本，这才是真正的保险业务。
Capital, that's the right insurance business.
他们收取保费，资金最终回流到这个链上资本层，这就是全部了。
They collect premiums, percolates all the way back to this onchain capital layer, and that's what it is.
我们为35家保险公司提供支持，业务规模大约5亿美元，预计在未来七个月左右增长到10亿美元。
We back 35 insurance carriers, about half 1,000,000,000 in business, and should should grow to about 1,000,000,000 over the course of the next seven ish months.
不错。
Cool.
要让这场对话有实质意义，我们需要了解哪些再保险的知识？为什么区块链和智能合约是构建再保险前沿的最佳基础？
What do we need to know about reinsurance to be productive in this conversation, and why is a blockchain, why are smart contracts the right substrate to build the frontier of reinsurance?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
你看啊。
It's look.
这其实是个规模巨大但特别枯燥的行业。
It's a massive, boring business.
每年全球再保险的保费规模大约有一万亿美元，由几十家大型再保险公司处理，比如慕尼黑再保险、瑞士再保险和劳合社。
There's about a trillion in reinsurance premium that's processed annually across dozens of very large reinsurers, Munich Re, Swiss Re, Lloyd's of London.
所有这些资金本质上都是一笔模糊不清的资本。
All of it is basically just a pot of opaque capital.
这些承诺是异步确认的，而他们真正销售的产品，其实就是一个承诺。
It's attested to asynchronously, and the product instead they sell is a promise.
承诺在出事时向他们的保险公司客户赔付，而第二部分则是要能随时证明自己具备赔付能力。
It's a promise to pay their insurance company customers if things happen, and then the second part of that is to prove that they can pay at a given moment's notice.
把业务搬到链上，利用链上资本，在我看来，这是链上资本最优雅的应用场景，因为它同时解决了这两个问题。
Being onchain and utilizing onchain capital is probably the most elegant use case of, in my mind, onchain capital, and that it fulfills both of those things.
我们接收的资本，任何人在任何时候都能查看——监管机构、保险公司客户、保险商本人，只要有一台电脑，就能看到我们完全有能力兑现承诺，随时都财务健康。
We take in capital that anyone in the world can see at any given point in time, regulators, insurance company customers, the insurers themselves, anyone with a computer can see that we are good for their promise and that we're solvent at any given moment in time.
这还是一大笔能够承担多元化风险的资金，而且资金流动完全透明——这一点在保险行业以前从未出现过。
It's also a massive pool of capital that can take diversified risks, and the cash flows back into this pool of capital being transparent, know, something that's never existed before in this space.
那么在再保险的资金结构中，区块链技术是通过智能合约在哪个环节发挥作用的呢？
So what part of the capital stack around reinsurance is blockchain tech doing this on smart contracts?
你们基于以太坊，使用稳定币，具体是哪个部分在做这个？
You know, you're built on Ethereum using stablecoins.
你们现在主要改进的是哪个环节？
What part of that are you improving now?
你们是单纯用区块链作为后台，来提升商业模式的利润率，还是说背后有别的关键点？
Is this like a are you guys simply improving your the business model margins by using blockchains as your back end, or what's what's really the secret sauce?
这里的真正关键到底是什么？
What's the x factor here?
是的，从两个方面来看，如果你把再保险看作一种产品，是保险公司另一个资金来源，那么第一点就是再保险产品的生产成本更低了。
Yeah, so in two parts, if you think about reinsurance as a product, as another capital source for insurance companies, the first part is the manufacture of the product of reinsurance, the expense ratio, is lower.
我们的运营杠杆率要高得多。
We're a much higher operating leverage business.
我们员工不到十人。
We have less than a dozen employees.
相比那些拥有数万名员工、传统业务和老旧系统的再保险公司，我们有望成长为一个数十亿美元规模的保险市场，这在运营成本上是一个巨大的优势。
We'll be on track to be a multi billion dollar insurance market in comparison to legacy reinsurers that have tens of thousands of employees, legacy business, legacy infrastructure, that's a meaningful difference in just the expense ratio load.
我们是首个在链上资本基础上实现规模化的公司，并将智能合约集成到所有使用我们的DeFi协议中，以一种前所未有的方式吸引资本。
And we're the first to find scale on with onchain capital and build transformers into all DeFi protocols that now use us or we're composable with to pull in capital in a way that hasn't been done before in this space.
我们的观点是，随着我们的产品在Pendle等平台广泛普及，我们的资本成本已经具备竞争力，甚至优于全球绝大多数再保险公司。
And our viewpoint is at scale, we as we kind of proliferate through those world end markets, as folks are using us our products on Pendle and the like, that we have a cost of capital that's competitive, if not superior, to practically every reinsurer in the world.
用于担保这些义务的资金本身并没有什么特别之处，我们认为，我们能以比传统保险行业更低的成本、更高效地构建这种机制。
And so there's nothing special about money that is used to security collateral, to secure these obligations, and we think we could just form that at a lower cost to a greater extent than anywhere else within traditional insurance.
Avichal，你当初在和Karn交流、研究Re Electric时，作为风投，你一向会仔细审查项目，那是什么让你对Re正在做的事、以及它能实现的潜力感到兴奋？
Avichal, when you were talking to Karn, looking at Re at Electric, you're a VC, you audit things, you kick the tires, what got you excited about what Re is doing, what what it can do?
是的。
Yeah.
也许我该从头说起，因为风投通常都只看宏观层面。
I so so maybe zooming because, know, VCs are very high level.
咱们先退一步看，这件事有两点特别吸引我。
So zooming out for a second, the thing that that there are, like, two things that kinda caught my eye about this particular thing.
如果你从远处想想Re到底是什么，我觉得可以这样理解：它是一个受监管的金融科技业务，注册在开曼群岛，必须取得牌照，有监管机构，也有必须遵守的规则。
And and it's a, you know, if you if you step back and think about what is Re, what I think the way to think about it is there's this regulated fintech business and it's a it's a registered Cayman Island, you know, you have to get licenses, there's regulators, there's there's rules you have to follow.
然后还有链上部分和智能合约部分。
And then there's the onchain piece and the smart contract piece.
所以从终端用户或客户的角度来看，这看起来就是一个再保险业务。
And so, kind of from an end consumer perspective or an end customer perspective, this just looks like a reinsurance business.
对吧？
Right?
它解决的是同一个问题。
It just solves the same problem.
但背后有两点让它运作得高效得多。
But there are two things behind the scenes that that make this work much, much better.
其中之一是，如果所有流程都基于智能合约，审计和合规成本会低很多，也简单很多。
So, one is the fact that if everything runs on smart contracts, auditing and regulatory compliance become much cheaper and easier.
你知道钱在哪儿，也能追踪它的流向，还有账本记录，一切都清清楚楚。
You know where your money is, you know how to track it, there's a ledger, it's everything's super clean.
很多金融科技公司主要关注的是资金怎么流转、钱都放在哪儿。
And and a lot of fintechs are about how you move the money around and where's the money sitting.
第二点，我觉得稳定币在资本市场这块的应用真的特别有意思。
The second is, I think the stablecoin capital market piece is really, really, really interesting.
很多人对稳定币的理解就是用来转账，而且大家都想要美元。
I think we have this, like a lot of people have the concept of stablecoins and they're gonna move money around and people want dollars.
我们这么看这个问题：现在你手里大概有几亿美元。
And the way we think about this is, okay, you're gonna have today you have a couple 100,000,000,000.
最终链上的美元稳定币规模会达到五千亿美元。
You're gonna end up with $5,000,000,000,000 of USD stablecoins onchain.
这些人都会觉得，太好了，终于拿到美元了。
And all of these people are gonna say, yes, I'm so glad I have dollars now.
要是能用这些钱买国债赚个4%的利息，那该多好啊？
Wouldn't it be great if I could make 4% using treasuries?
紧接着，很大一部分人会想，二十、三十、四十、五十，甚至可能有百分之八十的人会说：等等，我想赚的不止4%。
And then immediately, a large percentage of those people, think, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, maybe 80% of them will say, wait a second, I would like to make more than 4%.
那我该怎么做到呢？
How do I do that?
于是，他们就开始四处寻找更高的收益。
And so, they'll go hunting for yield.
在我看来，稳定币真正有趣的地方在于，它创造了一个全新的资本市场。
And so, the really interesting thing about stablecoins in my opinion is that you've created a new capital market.
会有五万亿美元在寻找收益，他们自然会需要各种金融产品。
You're gonna have $5,000,000,000,000 hunting for yield, and they will want products.
所以从商业角度看，没错，你有个金融科技公司，但如果你仔细看这些公司，你会发现它们大多都有强大的资本市场部门，因为金融科技的核心工作之一，就是不断去资本市场融资。
And so, from a business perspective, yes, you have a fintech, but and if you look at a lot these fintechs, you often have a very big capital markets function because so much of the job of a fintech is going to the capital markets and raising all the time.
这就是为什么像黑石这样的公司会存在。
This is why, like, Blackstone exists.
对吧？
Right?
他们把所有这些债务打包分层，证券化，然后卖给资本市场，背后是养老基金在接盘。
They take all this debt, they tranche it, they securitize it, they sell it to the capital markets, there's pension funds on the back end.
这整个体系非常庞大。
It's a it's a whole apparatus.
而你现在做的，是把这套复杂的体系直接压缩进了一个智能合约里。
And what you've done is you've collapsed that whole thing now into a smart contract.
稳定币市场，现在就是真正的资本市场。
And the stablecoin markets are just the capital markets now.
所以我认为，金融科技的未来架构，大概就像Re现在这样：面向终端客户的前端，是一个受监管的金融科技平台。
And so, I think the future architecture of fintechs looks something like what Re is now, which is on the front end, it's a regulated fintech to the end customer.
它做的还是同样的事。
It just does the same thing.
它解决的还是同一个问题。
It just solves the same problem.
但底层基于智能合约，让业务运营在合规方面高效得多，还内置了AI代理功能，这些可以让Karn来详细讲。
It's built on smart contracts so that the the operations of the business are much more efficient from a regulatory compliance perspective, and there's AI agents stuff built in, and Karn can talk about that.
然后你还有这个资本市场部分，这是做金融科技的核心内容之一，而它现在就体现在链上的稳定币市场上。
And then you have this capital markets piece, which is a huge part of what it is to run a fintech, and and that is just the stablecoin markets onchain.
所以我认为，这种架构就是金融科技未来的模样。
So that architecture, I think, is is what the future of fintech looks like.
我觉得 Re 是第一个真正把这一切拼凑起来并让它运转起来的公司。
And I think Re is is the the first that's actually sort of pieced it all together and is making it work.
所以，阿维卡尔，我理解你的意思是这样，如果我没说错的话，还有卡恩，我也希望你能补充一下，就是现在以太坊上已经有 1700 亿美元的稳定币了。
So I think what you're saying, Avichal, correct me if I'm wrong, and then, Karn, I think I want you to also hop in here, is that, you know, there's a $170,000,000,000 of stablecoins on Ethereum.
这个数字还在持续增长。
That number is growing.
大家都对稳定币的总供应量持乐观态度。
Everyone's bullish on the total supply of stablecoins.
在传统的再保险行业里，提供资本这件事通常是被严格限制的。
In the typical reinsurance world, providing capital to reinsurance is kinda just gatekept.
它是有层级划分的。
It's it's, you know, it's stratify.
它是有门槛的。
It's gatekept.
我根本接触不到。
It's not accessible to me.
大多数网民也接触不到，这就像华尔街那种封闭体系，你得先有天文数字般的资金，还得认识对的人
It's not accessible to most people on the Internet, and it's kinda just like the siloed Wall Street thing where you already need to have a bajillion dollars and know who to
才能谈得上合作
talk
这一点。
to.
阿维卡尔，你提到的重点是，这里有个再保险业务。
And, Avichal, what you're pointing to is like, oh, there's this reinsurance business.
Re其实包含两部分，我们待会儿会详细聊。
There's actually two parts to Re, we'll get into this later.
一部分是链上的Re，另一部分是Re Cover，我觉得阿维卡尔刚才指的就是这个，它本质上就是个传统的再保险业务。
There's Re, the onchain part, and then there's Re Cover, which I think is what you were alluding to, Avichal, it's just a normal reinsurance business.
这部分其实没什么新鲜的。
That part's nothing new.
真正新的是链上部分。卡恩的做法，是把原本只向那些资本雄厚、对再保险收益感兴趣的金融机构开放的入口，转向了链上的稳定币。
It's the onchain part that's new, and so instead of going to extremely well endowed financial institutions who have a ton of capital, who are interested in the yields that they get from reinsurance, what Karn is doing here with Re is simply pointing that opening, that funnel, that access point to onchain stablecoins.
现在，任何拥有链上稳定币的人，都能接触到再保险带来的收益了。
And now whoever has onchain stablecoins can get access to the yields that reinsurance provides.
这就是去中心化、链上化、区块链精神的核心所在。
And so that's the democratization thing, that's the onchain, that's the blockchain ethos thing.
这么说对吗？
Is this correct?
对，没错。
Yeah, that's right.
如果你想想现在谁在为这个市场提供资金，那就是养老基金、主权财富基金、超高净值个人，还有一些想配置与股票、加密货币完全不相关资产的家族办公室。
So if you think about who's supplying capital to this market right now, it's pension funds, it's sovereigns, it's ultra high net worth individuals, and certain family offices that want some exposure to a market that's completely uncorrelated with equities, with crypto, and the like.
我们所做的，是把保险风险切成小块，让它们能在整个去中心化金融体系里自由交易。
What we've done is turned this into something that cuts up slivers of insurance risk and makes them tradable across all of DeFi.
现在，这个完全不与其它市场联动的经济价值流，已经可以进行二级市场交易了。
So there's secondary market trading at this completely uncorrelated economic value stream that now exists.
没错，这个说法很准确。
And so, yeah, that's that's a good characterization.
我想补充一点，大卫，从客户受益的角度来看，现在资本方也能平等接触到这些机会了。
The thing I would add, David, I think is so there's the the customer benefit piece of this, which is, okay, now you can democratize access to to all of these, from the capital market side.
而市场的另一端，是那些购买再保险的人。
The other customer, the other side of the market here are the people that are purchasing the reinsurance.
如果从宏观角度看，很多金融科技公司其实都明白，风险本身是没法凭空创造或消除的。
And if you think about a lot of fintechs, again, sort of 10,000 foot, 50,000 foot view, you know, you can't really you can't really create or destroy risk.
对吧？
Right?
所以，不管是借贷市场，还是再保险和保险市场，本质上都由三个部分组成。
And so, if you think about for lending or you think about reinsurance or insurance markets, like, there are there are like three components to it.
首先是基础收益率，你不可能超越国债收益，对吧？
There's the base rate, and you're not gonna beat treasury yield, right?
你不可能以低于这个利率借到钱。
You just can't borrow money lower than that.
从客户角度看，你承担着相应的风险。
There is the risk that you're taking on from a customer perspective.
如果你在承保工伤保险，或者给信用评分760的消费者放贷，又或者是给信用评分580的借款人放贷，这些都会对应一个特定的概率，最终决定你必须以什么利率放款，才能让风险变得合理。
So, if you're underwriting workers compensation or you're underwriting a seven sixty FICO score credit borrower on the consumer side or a five eighty FICO borrower, that's just a certain percent percentage that gets, you know, imputed into saying, like, I have to lend you money at a certain rate to ultimately make this risk make sense.
第三点是业务的运营效率。
And then the third is the operational efficiency of the business.
对吧？
Right?
如果这家公司的运营效率更高——不管是因为人工智能、加密货币，还是稳定币——这部分效率提升就会被整合进最终的净收益里，也就是借款人、也就是享受这家金融科技产品服务的人必须支付的利率。
So, if the business is more efficient, at running the business for whatever reason, AI, crypto, stablecoins, whatever, that then gets packaged into the net yield that the that the the borrower of that money, the recipient of that fintech's benefits and as a product has to pay.
对吧？
Right?
所以，这就是三个组成部分。
So, are the three components.
所以，作为一家初创公司，你根本没法影响联邦基金利率。
So, you're not gonna reduce the you you know, as a as a as a startup, you have no control over the fed funds rate.
对吧？
Right?
你对基准利率也完全没控制权。
You don't have any control over the base rate.
你其实没必要试图去提高承保标准。
You don't really wanna try to underwrite better.
很多金融科技公司都犯了这个大错，总想着：‘瞧，这群人FICO评分不够高’，或者‘那些做再保险二十多年的人都太傻了’。
Like, think that's a huge mistake that a lot of fintechs make because they try to say, oh, here's this pocket of people and FICO isn't good enough or like, hey, all the other people who have been doing reinsurance for twenty five years are dumb.
我们有更厉害的方法。
Like, we have a better way to do it.
但通常情况并不是这样。
That's usually not the case.
这些市场参与者通常都很专业，早就把风险评估得明明白白了。
Like, usually these are pretty sophisticated market participants that have underwritten the correctly.
所以，作为一家初创企业，你真正能施加影响、赢得竞争的地方，在于提升运营效率。
So, the the place where you have leverage as a business to to ultimately compete as a startup is to be more operationally efficient.
从理念上讲，把资本市场的运作搬到链上，确实很有吸引力——普通消费者现在也能轻松参与，获得高达12%到25%的可观收益。
So, like, from a from an ethos perspective, the I'm gonna hit the capital markets onchain is, like, is very compelling in terms of democratizing access to phenomenal yields, like, you know, 12 to 25% yields for the average consumer, they can now just participate.
但从商业角度看，关键在于：有了智能合约，你的合规流程能更简单高效；资本运作也不用再雇一帮人，天天跑去向养老基金推销，还每人年薪五十万，烦不胜烦。这样一来，你的运营成本就大幅降低了。
But from a business perspective, the thing to to understand is that because you can do smart contracts, which means you can do your regulatory function much more easily and efficiently, and because you can have a capital markets function that just says, here's a smart contract, dump money into my smart contract, and now I don't have to hire a dozen people to go pitch all the pension funds all the time and pay these people $500,000 a year and yada yada yada, you have operational efficiency in your business.
你把这项功能的成本降下来了，就能给同样的客户报更低的再保险价格，从而逐步抢走市场份额。
You've actually lowered the cost of running that function inside your business, which then means you can go offer a lower rate on your reinsurance to those same customers, which means you can actually eat market share.
对吧？
Right?
所以，从投资者或创始人的角度看，真正吸引人的是：运营效率的提升，让你能提供更好、更便宜、更快的产品。
So, ultimately, from an investor's perspective or a founder's perspective, what's compelling here is that the operational efficiency allows you to offer a product that's better, cheaper, faster.
结果就是，你能不断抢占市场。
And as a result, you can eat up market share.
作为初创公司，你这才有了真正竞争的机会。
And as a result, have as a startup, you have a shot at competing.
过去，如果你想进入这些资本市场，就得雇上十五个人才能撑起规模。
Because historically, if you wanted to go compete in these capital markets, you need to hire 15 people to scale.
这事儿本来特别折腾，但现在你有了运营效率上的优势。
It's just like a really brutal exercise, and now you have an operational efficiency advantage.
我觉得这才是这个模式最关键的部分，也说明它确实是未来金融科技初创公司的正确方向。
Like, I think that's that's the other piece of this that makes this, I think, the right model for fintech startups going forward.
这其实也符合我们目前看到的大趋势：AI和现代平台让公司可以更小，却能实现更大的规模，因为每个人借助加密工具、区块链、稳定币，再加上AI，都能发挥出远超以往的效能，让小团队也能干出大事业。
And this sort of aligns with I think what we're seeing broadly AI and you know, modern platforms allow the firm to be smaller and operate at a higher scale, simply because every you know, individual has just more leverage to what they can do using using crypto tools, using blockchains, using stablecoins, and then also using AI to, like, keep keep companies small, let them punch above their weight class.
这种趋势我们已经看得很清楚了。
We're we're seeing this trend.
我们在加密领域最早就看到过这种对比，比如Uniswap和纳斯达克，一百人对一万人。
We started this trend in crypto with things like, you know, Uniswap versus Nasdaq, you know, a 100 employees versus 10,000.
现在连Hyper Liquid和Coinbase也是，十四个人对上千人。
And now with with Hyper Liquid even versus Coinbase, it's like 14 people versus another thousand.
所以我觉得，正是因为AI和这些工具，公司才变得越来越小。
And so I think the the firm is getting smaller because of AI and these tools.
所以，你跟我说的这些关于阿维卡尔的事，全都特别有道理。
And so, you know, everything you're telling me of Avichal makes a ton of sense.
我们确实能更高效地运作。
You know, we can operate more efficiently.
借助这些现代工具，我们有能力颠覆那些行动迟缓的行业巨头。
We can disrupt, you know, slower moving gargantuan incumbents in the space using the modern tools.
但这到底是一个千倍增长的机会，还只是对传统业务30%的效率提升？
But is that is that like a thousand x opportunity or is that just like a 30%, efficiency upgrade to a traditional business?
为什么这件事是重大突破，而不是个微小的改进？
Why is this the big thing rather than the marginal improvement thing?
我觉得这是在重新改造一套古老的系统。
I think this is rewiring of ancient plumbing.
对于金融科技公司和保险公司来说，关键在于，顶尖的核保人员都知道，每个风险都有其价格，最终都会趋于一致，而那些超额利润或垄断收益，迟早会被逐渐消除。
Just having back fintechs and insurance companies, a big part of this is, hey, sophisticated underwriters, every risk has a price, there's a convergence to ultimately what that is, and maybe excess economics or rents kind of get stripped away over time.
这里的论点其实有两方面。
Part of the argument here is like, again, twofold.
产品的生产成本下降了，边际成本也随之降低，如果我们像我们这样，深度整合了互联网资本市场，时间一长，市场就会逐渐被我们掌控，除非对手能迅速做出有效回应。
Production of the product cost comes down, so marginal cost of production comes down, and if you have a set of integrations or edge like we do into Internet Capital Markets, you kinda subsume the market over time unless people can competitively respond quickly.
第二点是，虽然定价会逐渐趋同，但各个市场参与者对风险的响应速度却大不相同。
The second piece is while underwriting converges to what price every risk should have, responsiveness differs between each of the market competitors.
如果你有这些AI工作流，能从风险最初产生或销售的源头接收信息，然后一路经过多个中间环节，最终直达资本端和风险端，
So if you've got these AI workflows that take in information at the top end where the risk is originated or sold, that passes through a bunch of different intermediaries all the way to the capital, all the way to the risk there.
这个过程在不同地方的推进速度是不一样的。
That happens at differing rates.
比如在保险行业，整个流程慢得惊人。
And in places like insurance, it happens incredibly slowly.
所以未来很可能是，AI和链上资本共同推动，彻底重塑那些承载数万亿美元流动的基础架构。
And so there's a future here where both AI and onchain capital make a really step function difference to to the fundamental plumbing that moves trillions of dollars.
这根本不是30%的效率提升。
So it's not a 30% improvement.
这是有可能彻底颠覆整个行业的可能性。
It is the potential to to eat an entire industry.
我觉得我可以补充一点
I think what I would add
那就是
to that is the
金融产品的市场动态，和SaaS、媒体或者其他行业不太一样。
specifically, the market dynamics with financial products are a little bit different than, let's say, a SaaS business, or a media business, or some other businesses.
原因是，在保险这类行业里，哪怕只提高0.1%的效率，也已经是巨大的突破了。
And the reason is that, like, a 10 basis point improvement in something like insurance is dramatic.
对吧？
Right?
因为市场参与者处理的资金量实在太大了，只要效率提升一点点，比如30%，就能让你直接成为一家上千亿美元的公司。
Like that is enough where you can go out compete everybody else because the the market participants themselves are often dealing with such large numbers at scale that a little bit of efficiency, like 30% is like you you are like a $100,000,000,000 company.
对吧？
Right?
作为一家金融科技公司，你只要比别人高效30%，就能彻底碾压对手。
Like you are gonna crush you're 30% more efficient as a fintech business.
这是因为市场参与者对数字的敏感度非常高，哪怕是很小的变动。
And it's because the market participants are thinking about numbers in very small increments.
对吧？
Right?
只要你能提升几个基点，就能直接胜出。
It's like if if you can improve things by a couple of basis couple basis points, you win.
到时候，所有人都会转投你这边。
Like, everybody will just switch over to you.
而且，你的交易对手通常都非常理性。
And it's also because your counterparties often are very, very rational.
如果你能帮他们每年省下一点成本，他们一定会毫不犹豫地采纳。
So, you know, if you're talking about a business saving a little bit of money on on something that they have to do every year, they're totally gonna do that.
但反过来想想，你真会在乎每月省十块还是二十块吗？相对于你每月一百块的Airtable、Notion或者Slack订阅费？
Contrast that with, like like, do you really care if you're gonna save $10 a month or $20 a month relative to your $100 a month, you know, Airtable subscription or your Notion subscription or your Slacks?
换起来太麻烦了，根本不值得。
It's just like too much work to rip it out.
所以你做决定的时候，根本不是这么想的。
And so you just that's not why you make decisions that way.
但说到金融产品，比如贷款，我就想到房贷。
But for for these financial products, lending, I think about a mortgage.
人们是怎么选房贷机构的呢？
Like, how do people decide where to get a mortgage?
这边利率是6.3%，那边是6.25%，差那么一点。
It's like, well, it's 6.3 over there, and it's like 6.25 over there.
我肯定选那个低一点的。
I'm going to that first cent.
对吧？
Right?
这些微乎其微的利率调整，一旦做成了，整个市场都会跟着跑。
It's like these are tiny, tiny improvements that you have to make in sort of the the net rate that somebody pays, and the entire market will flow.
所以，如果阿维卡尔你说得对，那在再保险这一块，假设这个理论本身成立，也就是再保险只在某个方向上提升了30%的效率，但它的规模会变得极其庞大。
So if you're right, Avichal, I think what is going to happen on the Re side of things, you know, assuming in a vacuum that the concept and and theory of Re is correct, that, you know, Re Re is only a 30% efficiency upgrade in one direction, but the size of it grows very, very, very large.
如果你的理论是对的，那结果就会是这样。
That if you were if you are correct about your theory, that would be the outcome.
对吧？
Correct?
没错。
That's right.
不仅如此，从创业的角度来看，真正吸引人的是：如果你能在稳定币这一块，像Re这样利用链上资本市场实现突破，传统机构想跟上这种效率几乎不可能。
And and and not only that, but I think this is what's so compelling from a startup perspective, is that if you manage to do this on the stablecoin side, with the onchain capital markets the way that Re is, I think it's gonna be very difficult for the incumbents to tap into that same efficiency.
对吧？
Right?
每个人都会做AI。
So, like, everybody's gonna do AI.
所有金融科技公司都会跟进。
All of fintechs are gonna do it.
银行也会试着去做。
The banks are gonna try to do it.
在初创公司这边，你们执行起来更快，真的有机会提升流程效率。
And I think the on on the startup side, you execute faster and you have a real shot at workflow efficiency.
所以初创公司肯定会这么做。
So, startup is gonna do that.
我觉得银行、保险公司、房贷中介、房屋净值贷款机构和信用卡公司，要搞懂链上资本市场，得花上很长时间。
I think it's gonna actually take these the banks and the insurance companies and mortgage brokers and HELOCs and credit card companies, it's gonna take them a long time to figure out how to tap into this the onchain capital markets.
所以我认为，这确实是一个持久的优势。
And so, I actually think that's a that's a durable advantage.
因此，你不仅能借助这个机会做大做强，而且你面对的竞争对手根本不知道怎么干，因为他们从零开始，甚至比他们在人工智能领域起步时还落后得多。
So so, not only can you get big on the back of this, but I think you're gonna be competing against incumbents that don't know how to do it at all because they're starting from zero, and they're starting actually even farther behind than they are on the AI stuff.
因为他们连加密货币是怎么运作的都不懂。
Because they have no they they're like, I don't I don't know how crypto works.
他们也不懂以太坊是怎么回事。
I don't know how Ethereum works.
更别提链上资本市场了。
I don't know how onchain capital markets work.
我其实一直在等局势明朗一点。
I've kinda I'm kinda waiting for clarity to happen.
现在合规和技术方面都还有不少摩擦点，各种各样的。
There are all these sort of points of friction in compliance and tech and whatever.
不过AI这块已经拿到绿灯了。
AI is already greenlit.
对吧？
Right?
所以大家都在加速推进AI相关的工作。
So everybody's starting to move faster on AI stuff.
实际上，那些像Re一样搞定了AI和链上稳定币这两块的公司，相比传统巨头会更有优势。
So actually, the companies that figure out the AI piece and the onchain stablecoin piece, the way that Re has, actually have more of an advantage relative to the incumbents.
这样一来你就能迅速做大，开始从大公司手里抢市场份额，因为他们没法像你一样享受到同样的效率红利。
And so you get big, and you just start eating up the market share from the big guys because they're not gonna be able to tap into the same efficiency pools that you are.
他们基本上做不到。我觉得有一种观点认为，传统巨头还是能拿到那些效率提升的，而且像OpenAI和Anthropic这样的公司，正因为钱都往那儿流，所以正在组建前沿的工程团队。
They can't basically, like, with AI, I think there's an argument that the incumbents will be able to to to gain those efficiency improvements, and that OpenAI and Interopic have these forward deployed engineering, teams that they're building because that's where all the money is.
所以他们得去找那些大公司。
So they have to go to the big guys.
他们得向现有巨头寻求流程优化，而人工智能公司会拼命推动这件事尽快实现。
They have to go to the incumbents to get the workflow optimizations, and and the AI companies are gonna try to make that happen as quickly as possible.
这对初创公司来说，处境其实挺棘手的。
And so that's a that's a tricky place to be as a startup.
不过你当然还是能在那里打造出巨头企业，而且能走得快得多。
Now, think you can still obviously build huge companies there, you can move a lot faster.
但现在根本没人带着工程团队去保险公司，教他们怎么搞初创、怎么正确做稳定币。
But there's, like, there's no forward deployed engineering organization that's going into insurance companies and teaching them how to do startups, to to do stablecoins right now.
对吧？
Right?
所以我觉得这个生态系统的竞争优势更持久，因为现有巨头对稳定币市场根本一无所知。
So so I think this ecosystem actually has a more durable advantage because the incumbents have no idea what they're doing right now with the stablecoin markets.
顺便说一句，这才是更大的机会。
And that that that is the bigger idea, by the way.
对吧？
Right?
比如说，我现在拥有或再保险的协议，掌控着链上庞大的资本池，这已经正在发生，百慕大和开曼的再保险公司都在主动找我们，想接入这个资金池。
So, like, while I own or reinsurer and the protocol controls an onchain vast capital ocean, and is already happening, Bermuda reinsurers, Cayman reinsurers are approaching us to be able to tap that pool.
这就开始变得很像伦敦劳合社了，有一个共同的资金池，可以为全球任何保险公司和再保险公司提供支持。
So it starts to behave much more like a Lloyd's of London where you have this common capital pool that can feed any insurer and any reinsurer in the world.
这是一个非常重大的构想。
And that is a massive idea.
我不知道你有没有兴趣往这个方向聊，但我认为这其实是个特别有意思的角度，你在很多行业都能看到类似的情况。
I I don't know if you wanna go in this direction, but I think this is, like, a fascinating thread to pull on, which is you see this in a lot of markets.
我以前在亚马逊实习，就在他们推出AWS之前，当时我在软件工程团队。
Like, I was an intern at Amazon, right before they launched AWS, so on software engineering side.
那段时间特别有意思，因为CTO沃纳已经在内部讨论，他们打算推出这些计算产品，因为亚马逊本身早就 built 在这套基础设施之上。
It was really interesting because the CTO of Werner was already talking internally about how they were gonna launch these compute products because Amazon was built on all that infrastructure.
他们只是把自己内部最先用的这些工具，开放给所有人使用。
And they were just gonna take those things that that they were using as the first customer and open them up to everybody else.
现在很多人还没完全意识到的是，其实有一批金融科技公司正在做这件事。
And so I think the the other thing that a lot of people are not fully appreciating right now is I think there are a handful of fintechs.
你看RAMP在AI领域就是这样，我觉得还有几家金融科技公司也发现了，AI的工作流和加密货币的工作流——像Stripe也在尝试——本质上都是底层基础设施。
You're kinda seeing RAMP do this with AI, I but think there are a handful of fintechs that are figuring out that the AI workflows and the crypto workflows, like Stripe is kinda trying to do this, are actually infrastructure.
只要你先把自己内部的问题解决了，让整个系统运转起来，就可以把这套系统当作你的AWS，开放给其他人使用。
And if you solve it for yourself and you really get the flywheel going, then you can go offer that as your AWS to everybody else.
所以我认为，这些金融科技公司如果做得好，最终都会迎来第二增长曲线。
So I think a lot of these fintechs, if they're done well, actually end up having a second act.
第一阶段的问题是：你能不能靠再保险、房屋净值贷款、信用卡这些业务，做成一家估值一千亿美元的公司？
So the first is, like, can you be a $10,000,000,000 company on the back of reinsurance or HELOCs or credit cards or whatever?
第二阶段则是：我已经解决了自己的问题。
And then your act two is, I've solved my own problem.
所以现在，整个行业里的其他人，都应该用我的平台。
And so now everybody else in my industry should be running on my platform.
最终，这里会出现一些关键节点，比如在Karn的案例里，慕尼黑再保险和瑞士再保险，如果想接入链上的稳定币市场——这里可是数万亿美元的资本池，而且成本比别处低得多——那就只能通过我们的基础设施。
And so, like, the eventual the eventual thing here, I think, is there will be these choke points that are like, hey, in in Karn's case, you know, Munich Re and Swiss Re, if you wanna access the onchain stablecoin markets, and this is a multiple trillions of dollars of capital markets sitting here, at a net lower cost than you can get in other places, you gotta go through our infrastructure.
现在你是在为整个行业赚钱了。
And now you're monetizing the whole industry.
我觉得，每个细分领域都会出现那么几家金融科技公司，比如保险、再保险、信用卡、房屋净值信贷额度、房贷之类的，它们都能搞明白这一点。
I think there will be a handful of fintechs that figure that out, you know, per per sort of industry slice, whether it's insurance, reinsurance, credit cards, HELOCs, mortgages, like whatever.
我觉得，人们也会逐渐意识到，这其实是一种基础设施。
I think people will start to figure that out as infrastructure as well.
而这，很可能成为许多金融科技公司的第二增长曲线。
And that think that'll be the act two for a lot of these fintechs.
你是说，对Re来说，这理论上也能成为它的第二增长曲线？
And you're saying that that can't could be in theory act two for Re here.
如果继续用这个比喻，亚马逊当初卖书，现在成了亚马逊；Re当初卖再保险，那它将来会变成什么？
So like the if we're extending the metaphor, Amazon once upon a time sold books and now it's Amazon, and Re once upon a time sold reinsurance, and then it becomes what?
不好意思。
Well, sorry.
对。
Yeah.
不好意思。
Sorry.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
整个保险行业的互联网资本市场。
In in in the Internet capital market for all of insurance.
对吧？
Right?
劳合社，你知道的，它其实是
So so Lloyd's, it's you know, the the
或许我们可以聊聊劳合社的历史。
It might be it might be worth talking through the history of Lloyd's.
我觉得很多人可能都不清楚
I think people may not even understand how
劳合社这个生意挺有意思的。
interesting Lloyd's of London is as as business.
是的。
Yeah.
它是个差不多有330年历史的保险市场，起源于伦敦的咖啡馆。
Roughly 330 year old insurance marketplace started in coffee houses in London.
当年一些人想自己为跨大西洋贸易投保，后来慢慢发展成了全球最大的保险市场之一。
You know, folks who were attempting to self insure Transatlantic trade, morphed into one of the largest insurance markets in the world.
他们现在有大约103家来自世界各地的独立承保人，带来各种业务。
They have roughly 103 distinct underwriters from around the world that bring in business.
劳合社市场就像RE协议一样，规定了哪些交易对手是被认可的、哪些业务线可以做、资本要求是多少，还设有治理委员会来监督这一切，背后还有一大笔资金作为保障——虽然这么说不太准确，但确实如此。
The Lloyd's market, much like the RE protocol, dictates who the acceptable counterparties are, lines of business, capital requirements, has a governance council that oversees all of this, and behind it, a very large pool of capital that secures the network for for a lack of better term.
我们很多灵感都来自劳合社，而它本身几乎在世界每个国家都有牌照，相关法律也已制定，让当地保险公司和承保人能在平台上开展业务。
So a a ton of our own inspiration comes from from Lloyd's, and that that itself is you know, it has its licenses in all practically every country in the world, laws that have been drafted that enable local insurance companies and underwriters to be able to transact on the network.
这正是我们追求的目标。
That's the the north star for us.
这真的很有意思。
It's really interesting.
我特别喜欢回过头去研究金融史，因为金融和资本市场本质上是一种技术，帮助我们协调资源、分担风险，从而去抓住那些重大的机会。
Like, I'm I'm such a huge fan of going back and reading the history of finance, because because finance and capital markets are technologies to allow us to coordinate and and share risk and then go pursue really big opportunities.
所以，卡恩，如果我说得不对，你尽管纠正，毕竟这方面你才是专家。
And so, I mean, Karn, correct me if I'm wrong, but but I think, like, if I say anything incorrect here, you're the you're the expert on this.
但你看劳合社，它简直就像一个去中心化金融协议。
But, you know, I I think if you look at Lloyd's, it looks like a DeFi protocol.
我第一次听卡恩跟我讲清楚的时候，简直惊呆了。
Like, when I first, like, understood it when Karn first explained it to me, I was like, holy shit.
这不就是个去中心化金融协议吗？
This looks like a DeFi protocol.
一堆资金就搁在这儿。
There's like a bunch of money sitting here.
还有一个治理委员会。
There's like a governance council.
人们会来向这个资本池提交他们的想法。
People come in and sort of like pitch their idea to the capital market pool.
你会把风险分隔开来处理。
You sort of like section off the risk.
你仔细一看，就会觉得这跟Morpho、Ave和Silo很像，再细看，简直惊了——我们这是在链上重新发明了伦敦劳合社啊。
You squint at it and you're like, this looks kinda like Morpho and Ave and Silo and, you know, you start squinting at it, you're like, holy moly, we just like reinvented Lloyd's of London onchain.
对吧？
Right?
它们真的太像了。
And they just look so similar.
所以，如果你还没回头了解过这些历史，我建议你去看看联合股份公司、荷兰东印度公司、劳合社这些已经存在了几百年的机构，你会发现，我们现在用智能合约做的，本质上跟它们一模一样。
And so for anybody who hasn't gone back and read the history of this stuff, I think reading about, like, the joint stock company and the Dutch East India Company and Lloyd's of London and these things that have been around for hundreds of years, you look at them and you're like, oh, we're just doing the same thing now with smart contracts.
这些结构作为协议，看起来非常非常相似。
Like, the the structure of these things as protocols looks very, very, very similar.
它们简直如出一辙。
It very it it it rhymes.
你可以一看就明白，为什么这件事会以这种方式发生。
Like you can look at it and say, this, I get why this is gonna happen in a very particular way.
我们现在很少这么说了。
We don't say it too often anymore.
但以前我们经常讲。
But we used to say
在《Bankless》节目中，我们常说的是，我们正在链上重写货币与金融的历史。
it quite frequently on bankless is we are just beadwriting the history of money and finance onchain.
是的，包括人类的协作在内。
Yeah, including including human coordination.
Karn，我想了解一下再保险市场。
Karn, I want to learn a little bit about the reinsurance market.
这个市场到底有多大？
Just how big is this market?
每年有多少资金在流转？
How much dollars change hands?
你打算进入这个市场，能用哪些指标来衡量它呢？
What kind of metrics can you put behind the market that you are going into?
是的，全球的保费总额大约是一万亿美元，也就是7.1万亿美元。
Yeah, so a trillion in premium globally, about What does that mean $71,000,000,000,000
保费？
in premium?
意思是有一万亿美元的保费被支付出去？
That means a trillion dollars gets paid?
没错。
Yes, correct.
保费指的是全球正在销售的保单所对应的金额。
Premium, there's policies out in the world that are sold.
就我们而言，主要承保一些非常基础、低波动的险种，比如汽车保险、家庭保险、工伤赔偿和商业财产保险，都是很稳定的类型。
In our specific case, we cover very plain, low volatility stuff like auto, home, workers' comp, commercial property, the basics, very low volatility.
因为你才刚起步，对吧？
Because you're getting started, right?
所以你是从最基础的做起。
So you're starting with the basics.
没错，是的。
Correct, yeah.
我们不碰那些波动特别大的，也不做那种非黑即白、要么亏光本金、要么赚好几倍的生意。
So nothing that's super high volatility, nothing with a binary outcome that says, We destroyed capital or We made a multiple of our money.
这类业务当然可以在规模上来做，但目前我们还是专注低波动的。
Certainly, you titrate that type of stuff in at scale, but as of right now, low volatility.
所以是万亿级别的再保险市场。
So a trillion in reinsurance
我觉得这一点特别棒，就是它符合大数定律。
what I'll say about that, what's really nice about that, I think, is that it's law of large numbers.
对吧？
Right?
你不是在说，比如飓风袭击佛罗里达，或者加州发生了山火这类事情。
So so you're not talking about, like, oh, hurricane hit Florida or there's wildfires in California.
这些东西很难建模，损失风险也特别大。
That stuff is really hard to model and you have tremendous loss risk.
但你想啊，比如小行星撞地球这种事，怎么可能刚好让马萨诸塞、佛罗里达和加利福尼亚的大量工伤保险同时出险赔付呢？概率太低了，大数定律下这种事根本不会发生。
But, you know, like, what are the odds that for some reason I mean, maybe, like, if an asteroid hits the earth or something, there's a bunch of workers' comp policies in Massachusetts and Florida and California that have to get paid out all at the same time, but a lot of large numbers, that just doesn't happen.
所以这意味着，这个生意非常稳定可预测。
And so what that means is the business is really predictable.
作为这些市场的资金提供方，你预期的盈亏平衡点非常清晰明了。
And so then as as like a capital provider into those markets, you're you're you're, you know, the balance of what you're gonna expect are very, very well understood.
你可以直接做个表格模型，一切都很清楚。
Like, you can you can run a spreadsheet model and it all Right.
因为说到底，我们比的不是Karn和Re的核保能力。
Because once again, we are not competing on Karn and Re's ability to underwrite.
我们比的是吸引大量资本的能力，好去利用大数定律带来的优势。
We are competing on the ability to attract a large amount of capital to take advantage of the law law of loss numbers.
我们是从最基础的部分开始的。
We're starting with the basics.
我们先从最稳定、波动最小的产品入手，主要是为了验证这个市场到底行不行。
We're starting with probably the least volatility thing ever, kind of just to, like, prove out the market and, like, I don't know.
等业务规模上去了，Karn 也许可以涉足更复杂的产品，不过那些咱们以后再说。
Maybe Karn, as things get larger, you can ensure more exotic things, but, like, we'll save that for later.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
That that's right.
得先把基本功练扎实。
You wanna build the muscles.
要盯住全球范围内在特定领域有专长的核保团队。
You wanna you wanna track the underwriters around the world that have the specialty in that particular domain.
对吧？
Right?
不管是地震、洪水还是火灾，你的目标应该是成为资金提供方，或者成为全球最懂行的参与者，去对接这些资源、实现收益，而不是自己从头去搭建这套能力。
So if it's earthquake or if it's flood or it's fire, what you want to be is the capital source or the most sophisticated actors in the world to be able to tap this and deliver economics rather than trying to build that muscle entirely yourself.
是的，再保险市场规模非常庞大。
Yeah, so massive reinsurance market.
它下面还有一个更大的保险市场，单是全球保险保费就达到了七八万亿美元，涵盖健康险，
This sits below an even bigger insurance market, so we're talking about 7 to 8,000,000,000,000 in just insurance premiums across health,
人寿险和普通保险。
life Normal insurance.
财产和意外险，没错。
Property and casualty, yeah, correct.
这些产品你通常通过经纪人购买，或者在网上直接买。但随着时间推移，你会发现这些界限开始变得模糊，因为归根结底，所有这些都依赖于一个庞大的资本池，边界也越来越不清晰。
And so this is the stuff that you will buy from your broker or you'll buy on the internet, What you'll see is that even that starts to over time start to convert, because if you abstract everything away, all of it is just supported by a massive pool of capital, and there'll start to be fuzziness around those edges.
所以这个市场极其庞大。
So it's incredibly large.
我觉得大概占全球GDP的12%。
12 I think it's roughly 12% of global GDP.
全球GDP的12%？没错。
12% of global so a global GDP is Yeah.
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差不多就是那样。
Something like that.
每年那上万亿美元的保费，其实呢，
Is with the 1,000,000,000,000 in premiums that are paid that, like,
整个保险市场的价值就在这里。
value The entire the entirety of the insurance market.
所以是七到八万亿美元的保险加上这一万亿美元。
So the 7 and $8.07 to 8,000,000,000,000 of insurance plus the trillion.
我曾经听过一个说法，不过这主意不是我想出来的。
One one, framework I heard at at one point, so I can't take credit for it.
我记得好像是谁说的，但具体是谁记不清了。
I think it might have been I can't remember who was.
我可不想曲解原意。
Don't wanna misinterpret it.
你甚至可以把政府看作一家保险公司。
But you can literally even think about the government as an insurance company.
对吧？
Right?
那政府到底在做什么呢？
Like, what is the government ultimately doing?
就是，比如消防、警察、军队这些，你知道的，
It's like, you know, fire and police and the army and, like, you know
他们提供服务。
They provide services.
还有医疗补助、军队，特别是保险类的服务。
And Medicaid and the military and and specifically insurance services.
对吧？
Right?
就是以防万一发生什么糟糕的事，这些才是政府该干的。
It's like just in in case something terrible happens, that's the stuff the government should do.
所以我觉得有个观点我很认同，其实政府支出没那么高，不是占GDP的12%。
So I think there's an argument that I actually like it's not, like, 12% of GDP.
其实就是这么一回事。
It's actually like The whole thing.
对。
Yeah.
因为归根结底，政府承担的正是所有这些后盾性保障。
Because it's like all of the stuff the government actually, like, backstops ultimately.
说白了，政府就像一家巨型保险公司。
It's it's basically like, the government is a giant insurance company.
是的。
Yeah.
但这家保险公司还握着枪。
But but with both guns.
没错。
Yeah.
一家拿着枪的保险公司。
It's an insurance company with guns.
两把枪。
Both guns.
没错。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
就是这样。
That's right.
有十万美元的奖金等着大家去赢。
$100,000 is up for grabs.
METAMASK 和 Ondo 正在 Ondo 交易大赛中送出这笔奖金。
METAMASK and Ondo are giving it away in the Ondo trading competition.
持续五周，分为三个等级。
Five weeks, three tiers.
每个等级中收益率最高的人，就能拿到最大的奖金份额。
Whoever earns the best percentage return in each tier wins the biggest cut.
从260种由Ondo代币化的股票、基金和商品中选择，直接在MetaMask里兑换，让你的投资组合自己说话。
Pick from 260 Ondo tokenized stocks, funds, and commodities to swap inside MetaMask and let your portfolio do the talking.
如果你觉得自己能赢过所有人，现在到6月18日就是你证明自己的机会。
If you think you can outtrade everyone else, this is your chance to prove it from now until June 18.
点击下方描述里的链接，在MetaMask手机端报名参赛。
Click the link in the description below and opt in on METAMASK Mobile.
无论用手机还是电脑，交易现实资产来参与竞赛。
Trade RWAs on mobile or desktop to compete.
这不是投资建议。
Not investment advice.
2024年，新兴市场为投资者创造了超过1150亿美元的年收益，收益率在10%到40%之间。
In 2024, emerging markets generated over a $115,000,000,000 in annual yield for investors, with yields ranging between 10 to 40%.
这些是全球最高、最稳定的收益率之一。
These are some of the highest, most persistent yields on earth.
问题出在哪？
The problem?
去中心化金融无法接触到这些资产。
DeFi can't access them.
BRIX 改变了这一点。
BRIX changes this.
基于 MEKAET 构建，BRIX 将新兴市场的货币市场和主权套利转化为可组合的底层模块，你直接通过钱包就能使用。
Built on MEKAET, BRIX takes emerging market money markets and sovereign carry and turns them into composable primitives you can access straight from your wallet.
当去中心化金融投资者在稳定币和国债上只能获得 3% 到 6% 的收益时，机构早已通过主权货币政策获取 10% 到 50% 的回报。
While DeFi investors earn three to 6% on stablecoins and T bills, institutions have been harvesting 10 to 50% yields backed by sovereign monetary policy.
BRIX 通过机构级代币化、本地银行通道、跨司法管辖区的合规体系以及实时稳定币结算，连接了这两个世界。
BRIX connects these worlds with institutional grade tokenization, local banking rails, compliance across jurisdictions, and real time stablecoin settlement.
BRIX 负责处理复杂的底层工作，让去中心化金融终于能接触到真实资产和基于现实收益的金融产品。
BRIX does the heavy lifting so DeFi can finally access real collateral, instruction products on top of real world yield.
即便是最好的套利交易，现在也触手可及。
Even the best carry trades can be within reach.
BRIX 让去中心化金融的愿景走进新兴市场，同时把新兴市场的高收益直接带到你的钱包里。
BRIX brings DeFi's promise to the emerging world and brings the emerging market yield to your wallet.
让收益随BRIX自由流动。
Let the yield flow with BRIX.
交易正在改变，不是慢慢来，就是现在。
Trading is changing, not gradually, right now.
OKX刚刚在App内推出了交易机器人。
OKX just launched TradingBots directly inside the OKX app.
网格交易、定投、套利，你设好策略，它就24小时自动执行。
Grid trading, DCA, arbitrage, you set your strategy once and it executes around the clock.
不用整天盯着图表，不用手动下单，睡着了也不怕错失机会。
No staring at charts all day, no manual entries, no missing moves while you're asleep.
第一次，自动化交易真的变得简单了。
And for the first time, automated trading actually feels simple.
但OKX的野心不止于交易。
But OKX is thinking bigger than just trading.
他们还推出了代理支付协议，一个开放标准，让AI代理能在链上完成完整的商业交易。
They also launched the agent payments protocol, an open standard that lets AI agents execute full commercial transactions onchain.
以太坊基金会、Uniswap 和 AWS 已经在使用它了，现在这项服务已经在美国正式上线。
The Ethereum Foundation, Uniswap, and AWS are already building on it, and now it's live inside The United States.
新用户只要存入资金并交易，就能通过 Bankless Link 获得最高 500 美元的比特币。
And new users who deposit and trade can get up to $500 in Bitcoin through the bankless link.
更多详情请查看节目笔记里的链接。
The link is in the show notes to learn more.
这不是投资建议。
Not investment advice.
纽约和德克萨斯州的用户暂不支持。
Not available in New York or Texas.
有个好消息要分享。
Some exciting news.
我们推出了一档新播客，专门帮大家理解加密货币的周期，学会怎么应对。
We are launching a new podcast to help people figure out the crypto cycle, how to navigate it.
我认识的最懂加密周期的投资人，叫迈克尔·纳托。
The best crypto cycle investor I know, his name is Michael Nato.
他运营着《DeFi报告》。
He runs the DeFi REPORT.
就是他，在比特币价格暴跌10%之前给我发了卖出提醒。
This is the guy that sent me a sell alert before the ten '10 price drop happened.
他的周期分析一直非常精准。
His cycle analysis has been absolutely on point.
我关注他好几年了。
I've been following him for years.
今年，我们开始每周录制一期播客。
And this year, we started recording weekly podcast episodes.
每期都会深入他的投资组合，看看他持有哪些资产，分析市场结构、入场点、比特币和以太坊的合理估值，以及我们当前所处的周期阶段。
Each one, we get into his portfolio, what he's holding, the market structure, entry targets, fair market value of Bitcoin and Ether, and where we are in the cycle.
每周三都会更新新一期内容。
There's new episodes that are released every Wednesday.
每期大约三十分钟。
They're thirty minutes.
它们都很简短。
They're short.
而且很有力。
They're punchy.
我觉得这个加密货币周期比以往更难把握，不如我们一起搞清楚。
I think this crypto cycle is harder to navigate than most, so let's do it together.
赶紧去订阅这个播客吧。
Go subscribe to this podcast.
在你常用的播客平台搜索‘DeFi Report’，无论是YouTube、Apple还是Spotify，或者查看节目说明里的链接。
Search the DeFi report wherever you get your podcasts, YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or find a link in the show notes.
现在就有一期新内容等着你。
There's a new episode waiting for you now.
好的。
Okay.
你再给听众多讲讲吧，因为我们平时总在谈银行体系里的资金，却很少想到保险。
You let just to kinda, like, keep on illuminating this for listeners because, you know, we we think about financing money a lot on bank lists, but not really insurance.
我其实会买好几种保险产品。
So, like, I I'm a consumer of a certain number of insurance products.
我有租房保险。
I have renter's insurance.
我有房屋保险。
I have homeowners insurance.
我有汽车保险，这些都是基础保险。
I have auto insurance, and this is primary insurance.
所以，如果我被偷了、车撞了、房子着火了，都会有家保险公司负责赔我。
And so there's a specific insurance company that, you know, will will pay me out if I get robbed or my car crashes or my house burns down or something.
但你们是给这些保险公司做保障的，所以你们离实际风险更远，但也得规模更大才行。
And but you insure those those people, and so you are a step further away from the risk, but you also need to be larger as a result.
那你们是怎么赚钱的？
And so how do you get paid?
再保险公司又是怎么收费的？
How does reinsurance get paid?
接着说这个流程
Complete this flow
是的，保险公司购买再保险有各种原因。
of Yeah, so insurance companies buy reinsurance for a variety of reasons.
可能他们觉得自己的业务在某个地区或领域过于集中，或者增长速度超过了预期。
Maybe they feel they're too concentrated in a particular geography or line of business, Perhaps they have faster than expected growth ambitions.
也可能他们想拓展新的业务领域。
Perhaps they want to diversify into new line of business.
这些都需要资金，所以他们可以去市场上筹措。
All of that requires capital, and so they could go to market for it.
这样做是有一定资金成本的。
There's a certain cost of capital for that.
从监管角度看，购买再保险通常更有利，因为有其他受监管的合作伙伴可以向你提供资金，支持你的各种目标。
From a regulatory perspective, it tends to be advantageous to buy reinsurance because you have these other regulated counterparties that could now funnel you cash that enables those ambitions, whatever they may be.
所以，很可能是你的房屋保险、汽车保险，或者其他任何保单，其中一部分都由主要再保险公司分担了。
And so very likely, your home insurance policy, your auto insurance policy, or what have you, some part of it is reinsured by one of the major reinsurers.
我敢说几乎肯定如此。
I almost guarantee it.
一部分是为了分散风险，另一部分则取决于保险公司的管理团队到底有什么目标，以及他们成功说服董事会做了什么决定。
Part of it is diversification, part of it is just ultimately what's the ambition of the team that's running the insurance company, and what have they convinced their board to do.
是因为有人愿意承担更多风险来换取更高回报，而另一些人不想承担这么多风险，所以愿意付钱让人替他们承担吗？
Is that just because there's somebody out there who's willing to take more risk for more wheeled and then somebody out there who doesn't want that much risk and will pay someone to take that risk?
所以你可以把风险和收益以各种方式拆分，这正是保险市场的运作方式。
So there's you can kinda slice up risk and yield in any different way, that's kinda what the insurance market does.
在某种程度上，作为从业者，你会看到，自己从事的业务确实涉及一些风险和波动。
To to some extent, I mean, like, what what you would be looking at as an operator is, hey, I'm in a in a business that involves some risk, right, and and some volatility.
我希望自己的一部分收益能更稳定、更像固定费用那样可预期。
I want some part of my economics to look much more defined and fee like.
所以，作为一个运营无银行保险公司的负责人，我会更乐意只拿20%到25%的费用，用来促成保单、提供服务，而把风险转出去，至少转走一部分，这样我的收益波动就能小一些。
And so as somebody who's running the bankless insurance company, you'd say, I'm much happier earning 20 or 25% for just originating the insurance policy, servicing the insurance policy, and I wanna send the risk out the door, or at least in some part so that I can dampen volatility in my earnings.
再保险有非常明确的目的，那就是作为资本来源，帮助实现这一目标。
There's a very specific purpose for reinsurance, and it is as a capital source that helps to achieve that end.
好的，Karn。
Okay, Karn.
假设我存入了USDC或者稳定币到Re，你们会怎么用我的钱？
Tell me say, I am a depositor of USDC or stablecoins into Re, do you do with my money that I just deposited?
这笔钱是怎么进入系统的？它具体起什么作用？
How does that get into the system, and what what does that do?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
作为稳定币的存入方，你的资金会进入某个资本层级，这个层级有不同的风险等级和流动性特征。
So so as as a stablecoin depositor, you'd end up in kind of one of the capital tranches that is of varying degrees of risk remoteness and liquidity.
在资本结构的最底层是我们自己的资金，这也是我们能说服DeFi市场将资金托付给我们的关键——我们自己也把钱押上，和大家共担风险。
At the bottom of the, you capital stack is our own money, and so one of the ways we've been able to convince the DeFi market that we're a credible place to park capital is by putting our own capital at risk and eating what we cook.
目前，我们的再保险公司资产中大约有七千七百万美元用于承保风险，并作为首要损失承担者。
And so there's roughly 77,000,000 in our reinsurer assets that on underwriting risk today and act as first loss.
Re有一个叫USDE的产品，属于中间层，收益相对较高，流动性较低，用户可以把钱存进去，拿到一个存款凭证，然后在DeFi里做各种操作；另外还有一个流动性很强的高级层，叫Re USD，抵押率至少是两倍以上，和保险风险几乎无关，现在Morpho、Fluid和Pendle上已经出现了很多围绕这个产品的交易市场，大家都在用。
There's a Re USDE product, which is kind of like a mezzanine layer that is relatively high yielding, less liquid that folks can park their money into, receive a deposit token, go do things in DeFi, and then a fairly liquid senior layer called Re USD, which is minimum doubly over collateralized, very remote from insurance risk, and there's all sorts of markets have popped up around this already on Morpho and Fluid, on Pendle that folks take advantage of today.
这就是整个资本结构的核心——我们是市场上唯一真正自己掏钱、言出必行、把存款人的资金放在第一位的团队。
So that's a capital structure, critical to all of this is we are the only folks in market that eat our own cooking, put our money where our mouth is, and protect the depositor capital ahead of everything else.
当我把稳定币存入RE时，你们是直接锁着不动，还是会把它转到传统金融体系里，比如说……
When I deposit stables into RE, do you guys just hold onto it, or do you guys take it into TradFi and it's, you know
是的，这个过程其实包含两个部分。
Yeah, so there ends up being two components to it.
保险业务的特别之处在于，它不是放贷业务，钱一进来就会立刻出去。
The beauty of the insurance business is it's not a lending business, it's like going out the door right away.
我们存在的一个重要目的，就是向外界证明，我们真有足够资本应对大规模风险事件。
A big part of our reason to exist is to prove to the world that we have the capital in case certain things happen en masse.
所以，有很大一部分资金仍然留在链上，是无风险的资产；当保险公司需要资金时，这些钱会通过一个合规的票据通道，进入独立的信托账户。
So there remains a significant amount onchain and risk free and related assets, and then as capital is called by insurance companies, that finds its way through a transformer in the form of a regulatory compliant note that ends up in segregated trust accounts.
所有这些资产都是无风险的，完全隔离、破产隔离，由保险公司使用，用完之后再原路返还。
So it's all kind of risk free assets, it's all bankruptcy remote and segregated, utilized by the insurance company and then returned by the insurance company.
这就是基本的流程。
That's the basic flow.
只有当有人需要赔付，出了什么状况时，才会发生这种情况。
And that only happens when somebody needs to get paid out because something bad happened.
我不确定保险行业里有没有专门的术语来描述这个。
I don't know if there's a technical word for this in the insurance
没有。
No.
实际上没那么复杂。
It's actually more mechanical than that.
每家保险公司都受监管，必须证明自己具备偿付能力，而其中一部分偿付能力就体现在再保险信用上，因此每年都有几个固定时间点，他们必须确认：资本已经进入信托账户。
Each of the insurance companies is regulated, they need to show solvency, part of their solvency is showing reinsurance credit, and so there are distinct points in the year where they need to check a box that says, Hey, Capital has moved into a trust account.
这笔资金存放在信托账户里，用于应对任何不利的赔付情况，随着时间推移，保费逐步实现，风险逐步释放，资本就会从另一端流出。
It is available in that trust account for any sort of adverse development, and as time passes, premium earns, risk risk is removed, that capital comes out the other door.
这就是基本的流程。
That's that's the basic flow.
然后再保险公司把它重新放到链上，为存款人提供收益？
And then and then Re takes it and puts it back on chain to provide the yields to the depositors?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Okay.
没错。
That's right.
明白。
Okay.
从机械的角度来看，再保险业务可以这样理解：政府规定了特定的抵押比例。
One one way to think about it, kinda mechanically for a reinsurance business is like, the government has certain collateralization ratios.
因为这里的数字很明确，你可以这么做：把一美元存入一个独立的信托账户，作为高达五到七美元已承保保费的抵押。
So because the numbers are well understood here, what you can do is you can say, I will put a dollar in a in a in a trust account, a segregated account, and that serves as collateral for up to 5 to $7 worth of written premium.
对。
Mhmm.
卡恩，如果我哪里说得不对，你随时告诉我。
So, let me let me know if I misspeak on anything here, Karn.
意思是说，这些人之所以这么看，是因为他们基于大数定律，觉得反正自己借个钱，利率也就4%或者5%左右。
What that means is that you're essentially, right, if those people, because they're looking at these as large a law of large numbers, they're like, well, I could borrow money myself at like 4%, right, or 55%.
所以本质上，这一美元被杠杆放大了五到七倍。
What you have is essentially that dollar is levered, right, five to seven times.
这样一来，这笔资金池的收益就能达到无风险利率的五倍。
And so, in effect, that pool of capital can earn five x the risk free rate.
对吧？
Right?
这池子钱因为承保了相当于五倍的额度，但实际赔付没那么多，所以实际收益率能到20%左右。
So that pool of dollars, because it's underwriting $5 essentially that have been lent out, and you know you only have to pay a certain amount out, you're actually making like 20% Mhmm.
这笔收益上再拿一部分。
On on that.
当然，也会有赔付率的问题，得支付一部分赔款，中间还要扣掉运营成本，但你粗略算一下就知道了：如果杠杆是五倍，资金池能赚20%，减掉所有费用后，就能明白为什么把钱放进这些智能合约、再转入信托账户的人，还能拿到10%、12%甚至14%的回报。
And so then you do have some loss ratios, you do have to pay a certain amount out, the business needs to take its cut, so and you can very quickly back in the envelope, you can say, okay, well, you're if you're operating like a five x leverage ratio here, that pool can make 20%, you take out all your fees and now you can see why the people who are putting the money into those smart contracts that's getting off boarded into these trust accounts could make ten, twelve, 14%.
对吧？
Right?
这些显然都是变量。
It's it obviously, these things are variable.
风险确实不少，但这不是投资建议，你随便算算就能明白。
There's a lot of risk, not investment advice in any form, but you can very quickly do the back of the envelope math.
现在你开始谈到稳定币持有者的回报能达到百分之十几，而且你心里清楚这背后的风险在哪。
And now you're starting to talk about, return for stablecoin holders in the teens, but in a way that you're like, wait, I understand the risk here.
对。
Mhmm.
对吧？
Right?
这跟Terra Luna那种情况完全不一样，那种是跟加密货币无关、全靠自我循环，一崩就全崩。
This is not like a Terra Luna situation where it's all, you know, exogenous to crypto and it's all self referential and when it unwinds, it unwinds in a terrible way.
这个完全是不同类别的风险，地域上不相关，行业上不相关，跟加密货币本身也不相关。
This is like totally uncorrelated risks, geographically uncorrelated, sector uncorrelated, uncorrelated crypto.
我能理解，如果公司能用这笔钱赚到20%，那作为资本提供方，我拿到百分之十几的收益也就说得通了。
And I can see why if if the company can make 20% on the money, why I, as a capital provider into the company, could make in the teens.
所以让我理一下逻辑：有些稳定币会一直留在链上，它们自然就能获得链上的利率，也就是Athena利率，USCC在链上产生的收益，反正也没理由不拿。
So just so I'm getting the flow, there is stables that remain onchain, and though those get kinda like the onchain rate, the Athena rate, the yield rate that you get from USCC onchain just because why not, obviously.
然后，RE会把其中一部分资金拿去投资，用来为其他保险公司提供抵押，因为行业规则就是这么要求的，为了合规、为了保持偿付能力。
And then, RE takes some of that capital and deploys it where it needs to to collateralize other insurance companies because that's just what's required in the industry world and and to be compliant and, you know, solvent.
这些资金才是真正产生收益的钱，它们在收取费用，赚取实际回报——在一切顺利的情况下，少量资金流出，大量资金回流，只要没发生系统性危机把整个保险行业一锅端。
That money is like the productive money that's like collecting the fees and, you know, earns the actual yield, a little bit of money goes out, a lot of money comes back in, in the happy case, so long as no systemic thing happened that wipes out all of insurance.
所以少量资金流出，大量资金回流，这部分收益又会重新注入资金池，变成像我这样的USCC存款人最初存入时所期待的那部分收益。
And so a little bit of money comes out, a lot of money comes back in, and then that gets added back into the pool and turns into the yields that the USCC depositor like me put in there in the first place.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
所以为了确认一下，系统性风险是被排除在外的，对吧？
So so just to be sure, there are exclusions for the systemic things.
这些在我们这个行业里根本不存在，但本质上就是这样。
Those aren't a real thing in our business, but fundamentally that's it.
保险公司付给我们保费，这些保费就变成了可投资的浮存金。
The insurance company pays us premiums, those premiums end up being investable float.
我们在这个基础上再加一层安全垫，用来缓冲各种波动。
We layer a safety cushion over on top of this to absorb any sort of volatility.
大数定律告诉我们，如果我们把这种模式应用到几百家保险公司身上，结果会非常非常稳定。
Law of large numbers says if we do this across hundreds or hundreds of insurance companies, our results are very, very stable.
我们目前有51个正在执行的保险协议。
We've got 51 active insurance treaties today.
用不了多久，数量就能达到几百个，随着规模扩大，波动也会越来越小。
We'll get to the hundreds in short order, and so volatility continues to dampen kind of as that happens.
如果再往远处看，保险公司和资产管理机构的配合，就像花生酱和果酱一样完美契合。
And then if you zoom out a little bit, this exactly insurance companies and asset managers go together like peanut butter and jelly.
我们现在看到的是大量保费源源不断地进来，资本成本几乎为零，这些钱可以按无风险利率投资，或者像伯克希尔那样，交给旗下的资产管理团队，从而获得隐性杠杆带来的回报。
What we're seeing is a whole bunch of premium come in at zero cost of capital that could be invested at the risk free rate, or if you're Berkshire Hathaway, it's invested amongst their asset management arm and generates a return that's implicitly levered as a result of that.
是的，伯克希尔有GEICO和Gen Re，它们源源不断产生这些保费资金，然后全部投入投资。
Yeah, Berkshire has GEICO and has Gen Re that generate all of this premium float, ends up being invested.
阿波罗有Athene。
Apollo has Athene.
这种模式在各处都能看到。
You see this kind of everywhere.
没错，投资收益本质上是无风险利率的杠杆敞口，再加上保险业务的利润空间，毕竟整体经济模型里，保险本身也得赚钱。
But yes, investment income, kind of a levered position on risk free rate, plus the insurance margin because you still expect to make money on the insurance as the totality of the economics.
那么在这种情况下，你真正能掌控的成功关键是什么？
So then in that case, what are the vectors of success that you really have control over?
我们并不是想改进核保，你知道的，那些事他们自己会处理，我们只是想不断获取更多资本。
Because we're not trying to improve on underwriting, you know, we're not trying to mess with any of that, know, they they figure that out, you're trying to just like access more and more capital.
Karn，你每天早上醒来，最先想的是什么？
So Karn, you wake up in the morning, what do you think about?
具体来说，哪些数字是你希望推动上涨，从而让整个初创企业成功的？
Like, how what what are the numbers that you want to make go up in order to make the the whole startup successful?
是的。
Yeah.
所以你看，这个业务本质上取决于我们能调动多少资本，原因在于，当我们去和这些保险公司打交道时，关键一点是——他们喜欢钱。
So so look, I I think the business ends up being a function of how much capital we have that we're able to deploy, and the reason for that is as we go to market and we talk to these insurance companies, a big part of it is like, hey, they like money.
他们希望合作的对手方更高效，长期来看能帮他们省下一点成本。
They wanna know that they're working with a counterparty, it's more efficient, That marginal is gonna cost them slightly less over time.
就像我们之前说的，由于这些技术的革新，保险产品或再保险的生产成本现在已经可以降到极低。
As we talked about, the production of the product or reinsurance can happen as low as possible cost now because of these conversions of these technologies.
我经常在想资金总量的增长。
I think about TVL formation.
我考虑的主要是怎么吸引资本，还有人力资本——那些长期管理数十亿再保险业务的人，他们脑子里积累了对市场的深刻理解与人脉关系，我该怎么把这些人才吸引过来？
I think about bringing in just capital, and then I think about human capital in a sense that there are these existing relationships, there are these understanding of these markets that locked in the heads of people who have managed these multi billion dollar books of reinsurance business, and how do I track them to read?
所以我每天大部分时间都在想这些事。
So that's how I spend most of my day.
就是琢磨怎么提升资金总量，以及该请谁加入团队，继续推动业务增长。
It's like thinking about TVL formation and who to bring onto the team to continue to accelerate the top line.
到目前为止，我们在这方面做得相当不错。
So far, we're doing a pretty good job of that.
十亿美元的业务量，可不是小数目。
Half 1,000,000,000 in business is nothing to sneeze at.
这会成为全年达到十亿美元交易规模为数不多的DeFi协议之一。
It'd be one of the very few DeFi protocols at a billion run rate over the course of the year.
你们能获得多少收益？
What are the yields that you get?
分为两个层级。
There are two tranches.
一个是优先级层级，另一个是次级层级。
So there's the senior tranche and the junior tranche.
你们能拿到多少收益？
What are the yields that you can get?
你知道具体数字吗？
Do you know that?
是的
Yeah.
对于优先级部分，收益率是固定的。
So so for the senior the senior tranche is fixed.
它比无风险利率高出250个基点。
It's a it's 250 basis points above risk free.
明白了。
Okay.
至于中间级，我觉得收益率在8%到8.5%之间，具体要看投入的资金情况。
And then for the mezz tranche, I think it's between $808.50 depending on what's deployed.
好的。
Okay.
是比无风险利率高8.5%吗？
So eight fifty Above risk free or?
对，比无风险利率高。
Above risk free.
是的
Yeah.
明白
Okay.
这次again，一个BIP是850个基点，也就是0.85%，高于无风险利率
This once again, a bip is 850 bips is point 85% So above risk
8.5%
eight and a half percent.
8.5%
Eight and a half percent.
明白
Okay.
这还差不多
That's that's more like it.
是的
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
如今无风险利率大概在百分之三到四左右。
So the risk free rate is something like three or 4% these days.
差不多是这样吧？
Is that about right?
十二。
12.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
That's right.
对。
Yeah.
而且
And
那你现在已经是12%了。
so then you're already 12.
好的。
Okay.
没错。
Correct.
是的。
Yeah.
那既然它偏离锚定价8个点，只给我11%的收益，而你却说能拿到12%以上，我干嘛还要买Stretch呢？
So so then why would I ever buy stretch if it if it and goes $8 off of its peg and it's only giving me 11%, and you're telling me that I can get, like, 12 something percent?
所有抵押品都经过验证了
With with all of the collateral attested to
用所有的抵押品。
With all of collateral.
放在独立信托里。
In segregated trusts.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
那，大卫，
Which which Well, David,
我觉得你正好说到点子上了。
I think you're you're hitting on exactly the right thing here.
对吧？
Right?
长期以来一直缺的东西，就是资本的高效利用，我们在加密领域讨论了好几年了。
Which is, like, I think the thing that has been missing for so long, and what we talked about it for several years in crypto, is the productive use of capital.
对吧？
Right?
这本质上是一个资本市场。
This is a capital market.
你得把这些钱用在真正有意义的事情上。
You're gonna take these dollars and you're gonna do something useful with them in the world.
我强烈建议大家去了解一下保险和再保险最初是怎么出现的，它们真正释放了人的潜力。
And and again, I would really recommend people go read the history of why things like insurance or reinsurance exist in the first place, but they unlock people.
对吧？
Right?
它们促进了资本的有效配置。
They unlock productive formation of capital.
它们让你能建起一座工厂。
They let you go build a factory.
它们让你能造出汽车。
They let you go build cars.
它们让你能在现实世界里做点真事。
They let you go do stuff in the real world.
有了责任保险，小企业主就能安心经营，比如当个牙医。
It lets a small business go run their business and be a dentist because you can have liability insurance.
这些所谓的工具，其实都在现实世界里创造着真正的价值。
Like, all of the these, like, things are actually productive in the real world.
所以，别让这变成一个基于加密资产价格的自我循环——一旦资产崩盘，你的收益就完蛋，你还得卖资产来支付收益，陷入恶性循环。
And so, rather than this being like some feedback loop inside a crypto based on, you know, the price of the asset, and if that asset unwinds, then your yield gets destroyed and you're in a death loop because you gotta sell the asset to pay the yield.
而这里的情况完全不同，资金真正流入实体经济，支持那些能创造价值的企业。如果一家企业年增长40%，那当然愿意为它买保险，毕竟它在持续成长。
This is actually uncorrelated and it's going into the real economy where it's funding things where those businesses can can make eighteen, twenty, 30, you know, if you have a business that's growing 40% a year because it's a real business, then, yeah, you're happy to buy insurance on that business because it's growing 40% a year.
对吧？
Right?
这才是资本真正 productive 的用法。
And so that's a real productive use of capital.
所以，这笔资金回流过来，其实就是我们一直说的那层粘合剂。
And so that money flowing back is I mean, this this is the glue that we always talked about.
对吧？
Right?
实际上，你现在正在对这个世界产生真正的净生产力影响。
It was like, actually, this this is you're now having real net productivity impact in the world.
这不是虚假的回报。
And that that's not fake return.
这是真实的回报。
That's real return.
没错。
Mhmm.
我觉得这太棒了。
Which I think is awesome.
我的意思是，一直以来这些技术承诺的就是要把一切连接起来，现在终于实现了。
I mean, that's that was always the promise of this stuff is we're gonna glue it together and it's actually finally happening.
我觉得特别有意思的是，这事偏偏发生在熊市里，而这正是历来都会发生的情况。
I think it's so funny too that it's happening in the in the bear market because this is what always what happens.
对吧？
Right?
五年前我们还对这类东西狂热追捧，结果后来DeFi好像就死掉了。
We, like, we had all this hype about this kind of stuff five years ago, and then and then, you know, DeFi looks like it's dead.
但现在，监管清晰了，稳定币市场也明朗了，智能合约能正常运行，而传统金融科技圈还没搞明白怎么接入。
But now you can actually wire everything together end to end between regulatory being clear and the stablecoin markets being clear, smart contracts working, and the fintech people haven't figured out how to off port.
所有基础设施终于齐备了，可以真正把事情做起来，偏偏现在是熊市，没人注意。
It's like all of the infrastructure now exists finally to do the thing, it's the depths of the bear market, so nobody's paying attention.
对的。
Mhmm.
等大家反应过来的时候，市场可能已经进入狂热牛市了，那时候人们才会说：‘哎，我怎么十八个月前没留意呢？’
And so by the time people figure this out, you know, we'll be like in a raging bull again, and people will be like, oh, yeah, why wasn't I paying attention eighteen months ago?
但我觉得最惊人的是，现在所有零件都凑齐了，整个系统真的能端到端跑通了。
But it's I think, to me, it's really amazing that all the pieces now fit, and it actually works end to end.
你知道吗，这些都不是纸上谈兵了。
You know, these guys are it's it's not theoretical.
他们真的在用稳定币里的美元去做现实世界里的事情。
Like, they're actually using the dollars from stablecoins to go do stuff in the real world with them.
对。
Yeah.
卡恩，你提到过，当人们存入USCC时，系统会给他们一张代表抵押品的凭证代币。
Karn, you mentioned when people come and deposit USCC, they get a receipt token representing the collateral inside of the system.
说到阿维查尔刚才说的那些拼图块终于对上了，你这个凭证代币正是其中一块，能让DeFi领域的人拿去用。
You know, speaking of what Avichal just said about puzzle pieces fitting together, that's a puzzle piece that you are allowing to go into DeFi and DeFi people can do DeFi things with it.
我第一个想到的就是循环操作。
First thought for me is looping.
我能拿这张凭证代币去抵押，借一笔贷款，再把更多USCC存进池子，从而提升我的收益仓位吗？
Can I go and take that receipt token, collateralize it, you know, get a loan on that, put more USCC into the pool, and, like, loop up my yield position?
你难道不觉得这种操作迟早会有人做吗？
Because, like, don't you expect that to happen?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这事已经在发生了。
So so it's happening.
对吧？
Right?
我们已经请了不少顶级审核方对我们的产品进行了风险评估。
So so we've had we've had a number of the top tier curators do the risk assessments on our products.
Steakhouse、Chaos Labs 都评估过我们，现在你确实可以在 Morpho、Fluid 以及其他好几个 DeFi 平台上用 REPORT 做杠杆。
Steakhouse, know, Chaos Labs has looked at us, and you can now, yeah, you can loop against REPORT on Morpho, on Fluid, a and bunch of other boron end markets.
它们现在能提供多高的收益率？
What kind of yields are are they paying out?
如果完全加杠杆的话，我上次看的时候，年化应该在百分之十几到二十出头，不过这……
So on on a fully looped basis, I I think it's gotta be high teens, low twenties is is my last check, But, you know, that that
这些操作会让你担心吗？我的意思是，你之前说的不就是，给低风险保险产品提供非常稳定的结果吗？
Do those things make you nervous or I mean, you're what you've been saying is, like, yeah, you give low risk insurance a very stable, like, outcomes.
所以，说实话，我也不确定。
So, like, I don't know.
我以前拿那笔钱干过不少蠢事。
I I've I've done pretty stupid stuff with that money.
现在跟你们这边先了解一下情况，我觉得这还不算最蠢的。
I don't think kicking the tires just with you guys right now, that doesn't seem like the stupidest.
是的。
Yeah.
从我的角度看，我们最关心的是把资金吸引过来，向外界证明：在风险调整后，这里确实是存放稳定币资本的理想选择。至于大家在更广泛的DeFi里自己决定做什么，我们并不打算多加干涉。
So from my perspective, I think what we care about is making sure that we take in the capital, we show the world that, hey, on a risk adjusted basis, this is a great place to park stablecoin capital, we have less to say on what people decide to do in broader DeFi, kind of of their own volition.
那属于每个人自己承担的风险。
That's to everyone's own kind of risk
这超出了你们的范围。
It's outside of your
当前的考量之外。
current view.
而且说实话，虽然我完全不是在提供任何财务建议，但相关的基础设施都已经到位了。
And and honestly, yeah, not not giving financial advice in any regard, but the the infrastructure is all there.
对。
Yeah.
不过呢。
But yeah.
但你之所以兴奋，是因为循环产品每增长一点，都会让你的产品里多出更多稳定币，而这本来就是你的初衷。
But you're stoked about it because any growth in the looping product ends up with just more stablecoins inside of your product, which is what you want in the first place.
是的。
Yeah.
这正是阿维卡尔说的，看看那些现成的资本市场。
Is what which is what Avichal say with, like, look at these capital markets that are available.
这就是它们的样子。
This is what that'll that looks like.
没错。
That's right.
是的。
Yeah.
这让产品和整体方案更有吸引力。
That it just it makes the the product and offering more compelling.
而且，确实有助于资本形成。
And, yeah, it helps capital formation for sure.
顺便说一下，传统金融里也有这种情况。
By the way, this happens in TradFi too.
对吧？
Right?
所以，我们称作‘循环’的这种机制，在DeFi里看起来很新，但实际上金融圈早就都懂了。
So so this notion of of looping as we call it in DeFi, it's like, this this is like the the the financial people have all figured this out.
对吧？
Right?
比如说，我跟某个养老基金有合作关系。
It's like, hey, I got some relationship with the pension fund.
他们让我以4%的利率借款，而这些人却愿意给我12%的回报。
They're letting me borrow at 4%, and like these guys are giving me 12.
如果我把这个操作重复几次，其实就是赚取利差，但也承担了风险——万一实际风险比预想的更大，那我就得自己承担损失。
And like if I just like stack that a few times, I'm just arbing the spread and I'm taking some some risk that that that thing like, you know, if if the risk is greater than I thought, then like I eat in my own margins.
杠杆和我们说的‘循环投资’，就是从一个地方借入资金，利率较低，再投到另一个利率更高的地方，从中赚取利差。
But like, you know, leverage and and what we call looping, which is like borrowing from one place at some rate to go invest it into some other place that has a higher rate and capturing that spread.
这正是金融的本质所在。
That's that's that's what finance is all about.
对吧？
Right?
接下来的问题是，你能不能找到愿意一直以这个利率借钱给你的资金方？
And then the question is, can you find capital providers that will continue to lend you at that at that rate?
所以，我觉得这没什么不妥，只要大家清楚自己在承担什么风险，明白在什么情况下可能会亏钱。
So, yeah, I don't I don't think there's like anything untoried about it as long as people understand the risk that they're taking and people understand, you know, when when and when they can't get, you know, incur losses in that sort of scenario.
没错。
Right.
Karn，Re代币今天上线了，这正是我们今天录制并发布这个播客的原因。
Karn, the Re token is coming or is here today because that's why we are recording this podcast and releasing it today.
Re代币到底是什么？
What is the Re token?
它有什么作用？
What does it do?
它在系统中是如何运作的？
How does it function in the system?
对。
Yeah.
它是Re生态系统的治理代币。
So so it's a governance token for the the Re ecosystem.
正如我们之前讨论的，它的设计是为了模仿劳合社的治理模式，决定哪些交易对手是被认可的、哪些业务线可以开展、需要多少资本，更重要的是，它还管理着整个网络的公共资本池——包括资本释放的规模，以及随着时间推移网络所获得的经济收益。
It's intended, you as we discussed, to emulate Lloyd's of London governance, so it dictates who the acceptable counterparties are, lines of business, what capital is required, and it governs importantly the common pool of capital, the size of that capital when it gets released, the economics that accrue to the network kind of over time.
这就是它的目标。
And so that's the goal.
这一切的妙处在于，我们并没有发明任何新东西。
The beauty of all of this is that we're not inventing anything new.
这其实是保险市场三十多年演变的成果，现在被搬到了链上作为起点。
This is like three thirty years of of evolution in the insurance market that's found its way onchain as a starting point.
所以，正如你所说，劳合社就是这个代币的原型。
What so Lloyd's of London, it was the model of this token, as you said.
那治理的动机是什么？
What was what's the incentive to govern?
我为什么要参与治理？
Why would I govern?
我为什么要关心这个？
Why would I care?
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这有可能成为一笔巨额资金，为全球数千万人提供保障，而且它的投资策略非常有价值，资金投向也极具意义。
I mean, it it has the potential to be a enormous sum of money that protects tens of millions of people around the world, and that has an investment policy that access is valuable, where it's pointed to is valuable.
全球每一个资产管理人、每一家再保险公司都应该对这个感兴趣。
Every asset manager and every reinsurer insurance company in the world should be interested in this.
如果我们能将数百亿美元投入当前稳定币市场的主流趋势中，并让这个资金池向广大市场开放，那它就会成为一个极强的杠杆工具，让持有治理代币的人获得巨大回报。
In If we a position to be putting tens of billions in whatever the secular trend of the stablecoin market is into a pot that is now accessible to this broad market, you know, it it becomes a really high leverage tool for for folks to to be holders of the governance token.
对。
Mhmm.
没错。
Right.
如果你持有大量治理代币，就能引导整个系统的资本流向特定的目标。
So if you have a lot of the governance token, you can allocate cap the capital of the system towards certain endpoints.
作为代币的大额持有者，你的利益和系统是绑定的——如果你决策失误，或者有腐败行为，实际上就是在摧毁你自己持有的代币价值。而你之所以有权力和影响力，正是因为持有大量代币。
You, as a large holder of the token, have some sort of, like, internal alignment with it because if you choose poorly, if you are corrupt, then you're, you know, invalidating the value of the tokens that you hold, and clearly you hold a lot because that's why you you have the power and influence in the first place.
Karn，这其实讲透了DeFi中治理代币的核心理念，以及它们为何从一开始就具有价值。
Karn, this has been just like the broad concept of, like, governance tokens in DeFi and and the philosophy about why they are valuable in the first place.
大多数情况下并不是这样运作的，你只要看看市场价格就知道了。
Not most of them have not worked that way, just if you look at the price on the market.
有时候产品本身没兑现承诺，有时候产品兑现了，但那个治理代币却没有带来价值。
And there's been sometimes the product themselves didn't follow through, sometimes the product did follow through, but the token was a governance token that didn't capture value.
那这个为什么能不一样呢？
Why will this one be any different?
背后有一个真正赚钱、现金流巨大的业务。
There's a real business with massive cash flows behind it.
如果你把它想象成一个类似劳合社的中央基金，它所产生的经济收益、用来保护网络和保险公司的资金流动，本身就蕴含着可观的经济价值和现金流。
If you think about a central fund analogous to Lloyd's, the economics that it accrues, the economic disbursement or accumulation to protect the network and to protect insurance companies, there is a sum of economics and cash flows that can perform multitude of economic actions that show value here.
所以我觉得你问的其实是治理权和价值积累之间的区别。
So I think what you're asking about is governance and distinction between value accrual.
长远来看，能掌控地球上最大的保险资本池，这价值简直无可估量。
I think it is super valuable to potentially be controlling the largest insurance capital pool on earth over time.
那些决定资金如何运作的调节机制和参数。
The knobs and parameters that dictate kind of how it moves.
不错。
Cool.
Karn，等我们结束这个播客后，你回去Re要忙什么？
Karn, when we log off of this podcast here in a second, what are you gonna go do back at Re?
你打算亲自去处理哪块事儿？
What need do to go get your fingers dirty with?
最近的路线图上有什么安排？
What's on the near term road map?
这个季度和今年，你最想完成哪些目标？
What are what are you trying to get done, like, this quarter and this year?
是的。
Yeah.
TGE确实是一段挺折腾的经历。
It's you know, I TGE is is a trying experience.
很高兴我们总算熬过来了。
I'm glad that that we're kind of past it.
我们正经营着一个真正的生意。
We have a real business to run.
未来几个月，我们要新增几亿美元的业务，然后为2027年1月1日做准备——那时保险市场会迎来新一轮的续保，目标是实现十亿美元的保费。
We're running at adding a couple 100,000,000 more new business over the course of the next couple months, and then we're gearing up for 01/01/2027, which is when the insurance market kind of turns over or renews to crack a billion in premium.
所以我们早就不是那种玩玩而已的小项目了。
So we're longer you know, a toy.
也不再只是个听起来有意思的概念了。
We're no longer kind of conceptually interesting.
我们现在是一个有真实市场准入和充足资本的真正玩家。
It is a real market player with real market access and and capital to boot.
对。
Mhmm.
阿维卡尔，这个问题想问问你。
Avichal, this is a question for you, actually.
链上还有很多投机者，事实上，他们几乎是现在仅存的主力了。
There's a lot of degens onchain, in fact, it's kind of one of the few players that are left.
本质上就是链上的投机者和华尔街在加密领域联手做事情。
It's like basically degens and Wall Street building on on in crypto.
所有对Re所提供收益感兴趣的相关方——比如14%的收益率、再保险收益——都在链上吗？
Are all of the the relevant parties that are interested in what Re is offering, the the yields, the 14% yields, the reinsurance yields, are they on chain?
我们之前聊过稳定币资本市场，对吧？
Like, do we even like, we talked about the stablecoin capital market.
没错。
Sure.
这个市场确实存在，但我还不确定Re想吸引的那些资本方是否已经上链了。
That totally exists, but I don't know if the parties that Re is interested in in collecting their capital to are on chain yet.
我这么想对吗？还是说，未来为了Re的发展，还得把更多人拉到链上来？
Am I am I wrong in that, or is there more people to bring on chain for the future of Re's growth?
我觉得还有很多人在路上，等着上链。
I think there are a lot of people still to come onchain.
我的意思是，整个保险行业最终都得来到这里，接入这些资本市场的机会。
I mean, I think the entire insurance industry ultimately, you know, needs to be here tapping into these capital markets again.
如果我们进入一个几年后的未来世界，那时有五万亿甚至十万亿美元的稳定币在流动，仅仅因为这是保管和转移资产、追踪其去向最高效的方式，整个金融体系都该迁移到这里，那么就会有大量资金……
If we go to this future world several years from now where there's 5 or $10,000,000,000,000 of stablecoins sloshing around, and it's just because it's the most efficient way to custody and move these assets and track where they are, that the entire financial world should should move here, then a bud
一大批资金会……
a bunch of
这些资金会寻求收益，其中很大一部分自然会流入这些资金池。
that will want to seek yield and a bunch of that will find its way to to these pools.
所以，链上资本市场，我觉得总有一天会像二十多年前，比如二十五年前，大约2000年那样。
And so, you know, the the onchain capital markets, I think there will come a day, you know, like, twenty years ago, twenty let's say, twenty five years ago, let's say circa '20 the year 2000.
对吧？
Right?
那时候人们开始意识到要上网。
There is this notion of going online.
你会说，‘我还没上网呢。’
And so you'd say, like, oh, I'm offline.
是的。
Mhmm.
我觉得链上现在的情况就跟当年一样，大家总在谈链上资本，或者稳定币。
And and I think onchain is kinda like that, where people talk about onchain capital today, or we talk about stablecoins.
我觉得再过十年左右，我们就不会再用这个词了。
And I think there will come a day somewhere in the next decade where we just stop using that term.
就像现在，你不可能说自个儿不上网。
Like, you can't be offline today.
根本没人会再提什么上网不上网了。
There's no notion of being online or offline.
它早就融合在一起，变成同一件事了。
It's just like, well, it just kinda merged and it just became the same thing.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得链上和链下也会是同样的发展路径。
I think the same thing happens with onchain versus offchain.
等资金规模达到五万亿美元的时候，就不再说什么链上资本市场了，直接就叫资本市场，对吧？
And so, when we hit 5,000,000,000,000, it's not gonna be onchain capital markets, it's just capital markets at that Right?
它们就慢慢融合在一起了。
And they just kinda blend together.
要让所有相关市场参与者都坐到桌边，还有很长的路要走。
So, there's a long way to go to get all of those market participants that that need to be around for for around the table for the for that to actually happen.
我觉得未来五年内这事肯定会发生。
And, I do think that happens over the next five years.
有意思的是，我们早就一直在想这个问题。
Now, what's interesting is we've always thought about that.
对吧？
Right?
自从2018年我们创立Electric时，我们的核心观点就是可编程货币。
We've we've been talking about, like, our thesis at Electric back in '18 when we started was this notion of programmable money.
我们一直都说，这事迟早会成真。
We've always said that that's gonna happen.
我觉得真正关键的是——顺便说一句，这个说法可不能算我们的原创。
I think the thing that, and by the way, we can't take credit for that term.
我觉得这个词早就已经在空气中了，当然我不是在玩双关。
I think that term has has been in the ether for a while, no pun intended.
但那时候我们写的那份核心观点报告，就在探讨：我们为什么非得做这件事？
But but that was like our thesis paper that we wrote that said, why should we even do this?
我觉得真正做成了的是那些开发者，他们把整个供给体系搭建起来了。
And I think the the thing that, the builders did was they created all of the supply.
我们开发了协议，设计了循环机制，推出了Morpho和Ave，还有Gauntlet和Steakhouse这些工具。
Like, we created protocols, we created looping mechanisms, we created, you know, Morpho and Ave, we got Gauntlet and Steakhouse.
所有这些组件都准备好了，就等上线了。
We got all these components that are like, hey, I'm ready to go.
但缺的一直是需求。
And the thing that was missing was the demand.
问题是，为什么有人要把自己的稳定币放进来？
It's like, well, why is somebody gonna bring their stablecoins in here?
为什么有人愿意把资产管理搬到链上？
Why is somebody gonna do asset management onchain?
那到底为什么会发生呢？
Like, why is that gonna happen?
我们需要的，是最后那一公里——我得能把这些资产用起来，产生实际的收益。
And the thing that we needed was that final last mile, but I need to be able to take these assets and and get productive yield from them.
我得让这些资产派上用场，这样持有代币或承担资金风险的人，才能看到明确的回报，比如百分之六、八、十、十二、十四、十八， whatever。
I need to be able to do something useful with them so that the person who is holding this token or is putting the capital at risk knows that what they're getting is six, eight, ten, twelve, fourteen, eighteen, whatever percent.
我觉得现在这种趋势已经开始出现了。
And I think that is what's starting to happen now.
所以我认为，其实很多基础建设早就有了，就像你提到的循环机制。
So I actually think, like, a lot of the plumbing exists, like you're talking about the looping.
让飞轮转起来的基础设施，其实都已经到位了。
The plumbing is in place to make the flywheels work.
我们缺的，最后就差需求端了。
The last thing that we needed was the demand side.
对吧？
Right?
问题是，稳定币持有者为什么要这么做呢？
It's like, why do the stablecoin holders want to do this?
他们一开始为什么愿意把资金投入这套系统？
Why do they want to put it into the plumbing in the first place?
就是为了获得收益。
And it's to get yield.
而现在，我们真的能获得实实在在的收益了。
And now we can actually get productive yield.
这样一来，飞轮就开始转起来了。一旦转起来，大资本方就会顺着链条往下看，发现：哦，这里才是该投的地方。
And so that I think gets the flywheel going, and then once the flywheel is going, then the bigger capital providers just look down chain and they're like, well, that's where I should be.
钱就在这里。
That's where the money is.
效率也在这里。
That's where the efficiency is.
所以，整个事情就会开始运转——至少，这是我们所看好的方向。
And so then the whole thing starts to at least that's that's our bet.
对吧？
Right?
我觉得未来五到七年大概就是这个样子了，因为现在需求已经全部接入，飞轮开始转动，循环开始运作，链上的资本提供者也开始活跃起来，大玩家就不得不关注并转向链上了。
I think that's that's probably what the next five to seven years look like because now that demand is all plugged in, the flywheel starts to work, the loops start to work, the the capital providers onchain start to work, and then the big guys start paying attention and have to move onchain.
是的。
Mhmm.
这个播客的名字叫Bankless。
Karn, the name of the podcast is Bankless.
我们2020年创办这个节目时，想法很简单：既然银行每年只给我0.04%的收益，那我为什么要把钱存在银行里？
We started it, you know, back in 2020 with the idea of, like, oh, taking control of one's money because why would I put my money in a bank that's giving me point 04% yearly yield?
他们可以把钱拿去创造价值，就像阿维卡尔说的那样，把钱用起来产生收益，而所有收益都归他们。
And they get to go do exactly what Avichal is saying, make it go productive, but they get all the productivity out of it.
而我们什么也得不到。
We get none of it.
那我们到底在干嘛？
So what are we doing?
我们直接绕开他们，转到链上。
Giving them the finger and we're going onchain.
Coinbase 上已经整合了不少产品，都符合‘DeFi 多数派’的思路——前面是传统金融科技，背后才是去中心化金融。
There has been a number of products integrated into Coinbase that have kind of been of the DeFi Mullet thesis, you know, fintech in the front, DeFi in the back.
我们已经接入了 Morphos，提供比特币贷款服务。
We got Morphos in there giving Bitcoin loans.
现在 Athena 也上线了，能提供收益回报。
Athena's in there now giving giving yield.
你觉得 Re 会成为新一代的储蓄账户吗？
Could you see Re being, like, the new savings account?
这样形容这个产品合适吗？
Is that an appropriate way to illustrate the product?
这和有人批评 Sailor 把 Stretch 叫储蓄账户一样，难道不也是不负责任吗？
Is that not is that not responsible in the same way some people are critiquing Sailor calling Stretch a savings account?
你有没有觉得，DeFi 多数派这个思路，其实只是在为 Re 打造一个资金入口？
Like, do you see the DeFi Mullet thesis kind of playing out for just being a funnel for capital for Re?
是的。
Yes.
我的意思是，先生，我们现在确实就是个DeFi多层风。”
I mean, sir certainly, like the the current say, we are a DeFi Mullet.
对吧？
Right?
我们前端做的是传统的再保险业务。
We we run a traditional reinsurance business on the front end.
后端有一套系统，虽然有点隐蔽，但设计得很精巧。
We've got the machinery on the back end that is is distracted away.
而且用户会愿意去使用它。
But elegant and people will want to access.
如果你想想再保险公司和保险公司最终会变成什么，它们其实会成为全球最大的资产管理机构。
If you think about what reinsurers and insurance companies become in the limit, they become the largest asset managers in the world.
所以，这里其实有一条路，能走向更多元化的方向。
And so there is a pathway here to something that's a little bit more diversified.
我现在不敢说有这方面的打算，毕竟再保险和保险行业本身就有太多事情要做。但一旦有公司承保的保费达到数千亿美元，自然就会延伸到金融的其他领域，这不是强行跨界，而是水到渠成。
I won't profess to having designs on that right now, because I think there's tons to do in reinsurance and insurance generally speaking, but as soon as you have entities that are writing hundreds of billions in premium, There there are natural segues, and they're natural they're not natural paths into other parts of finance.
对的。
Mhmm.
阿维卡尔、卡恩，谢谢你们今天来做客，让我深入了解了再保险，也祝你们的TGE顺利，希望你们早日突破十亿美元大关。
Avichal, Karn, thanks for coming on the show today and teaching me all about reinsurance and re, and and good luck with the TGE, and I hope you guys cross a billion dollars sooner rather than later.
谢了，兄弟。
Thanks, man.
感谢你抽出时间。
Appreciate the time.
很高兴见到你。
Good to see you.
再见，各位。
Cheers, guys.
Bankless 国家。
Bankless nation.
你们都明白规矩。
You guys know the deal.
加密货币有风险。
Crypto is risky.
你投进去的钱可能会亏掉。
You can lose what you put in.
保险也有风险。
Insurance is also risky as well.
这正是它的核心所在。
That's kind of the whole point.
但无论如何，这都是前沿领域。
But nonetheless, it's the frontier.
不是每个人都能参与，但很高兴你和我们一起踏上无银行之旅。
It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey.
非常感谢。
Thanks a lot.
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