伊朗解缚：伊斯兰共和国如何维持权力以及为何抗议不断重现 | 萨娜·易卜拉希米 与 阿明·索莱马尼

没人知道我父亲在哪里。

No one knew where my father was.

他为什么被逮捕？

Why was he arrested?

所以他的朋友是共产主义组织的一员，他们抓错了人。

So his friend was like part of this communist system and they picked him up instead.

然后他们开始对他施加酷刑，逼他认罪，说那些事是他做的。

And then they started like torturing him trying to get forced confession saying like this was you.

这是一种很常见的做法。

This is a pretty common practice.

他们现在也会这么做，甚至对抗议者的父母，也会抓他们的兄弟姐妹，你知道的？

They'll do this with today, even with like parents of protesters, they'll pick up brothers, sisters, you know?

是的。

Yeah.

所以他们折磨了我的父亲。

So they tortured my father.

我父亲经常告诉我他们具体对我做了什么。

My father would like tell me exactly what they did.

他说，首先，他们用布蒙住了眼睛。

He said, first of all, they had their eyes blindfolded.

他被倒吊着，双手被吊在天花板上，他们用粗电缆抽打他，他因疼痛和伤势而昏厥。

He was hanging from his wrist from the ceiling and they would flock him with a thick cable and then he would pass out from the pain and the injuries.

他们会往他身上泼水，然后再次施暴，逼他签署一份虚假的供词，但我父亲从未签过。

They would throw water at him and start torturing him again just to get him to sign a forced non vision, which my father never did.

他说，有一次蒙眼布松开了，他稍微能看到一点，发现整个房间的天花板和墙壁都沾满了血迹，是其他人的血。

And he said once like this blindfold went down and I could see a little bit and I saw a room that was all the ceiling and the walls were covered in blood, blood of other people.

他们甚至威胁要处决他。

And they even threatened to execute him.

我父亲之所以能获释，一是他从未签署那份虚假的供词。

And the only reason my father could get released was one, never signed that forced confession.

二是我祖父通过一些朋友找到了人脉，最终把他救了出来。

Two, my grandfather found like through some of his friends found some connections that could basically get him out.

所以这简直是个奇迹。

So it was a total miracle.

我能够活下来真是侥幸。

I am barely here.

那就是他对那段经历的描述。

And that was like his experience of that.

是的。

And yeah.

据我理解，这个体系是这样的：你们已经识别出这是一个压迫性的政权，但同时也存在一种地下、非正式的腐败机制——如果你认识对的人，只要你能打通关系，就像这个政权的腐败脊柱一样，也许人们都与之有联系，比如你找到政权后台的某个关键人物，就能帮忙让家人获释，或者让自己脱身，诸如此类。

This is as I understand the system is you have this oppressive regime as we've identified, but there is also the back alley, back channel corruption of if you know the right person, if you can like, it's just like there is a spine of a corrupted backbone that, like, may maybe even the people are connected to in the sense of like, you find the right person in the back end of this regime to help, you know, get a family member free, get yourself free, something like this.

这似乎也是我对伊朗政权的了解中一个相当持久的特征。

That also seems to be a pretty persistent part of like what I understand the Iranian regime to be.

基本上，如果你没有与权力资源建立联系，你就寸步难行。

Basically, if you are not connected to sources of power, you cannot get anywhere.

如果你是个商人，或者在生活的任何方面有所牵涉，你都别想有所作为，他们会彻底毁掉你。

If you're a business owner, if you have any anything in any aspect of life, you cannot get anywhere and they will destroy you.

是的

Yeah.

比如伊斯兰革命卫队，本质上就像一个黑手党。

Like the IRGC, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps operates as essentially a mafia.

他们会去找那些他们没有股份或控制权的企业，说：‘要是出了什么事可就不好了，你知道的，除非你让我们占你20%的股份。’

And like, they'll go up to businesses that they don't have a stake in or control and be like, be a shame if something happened, you know, if you don't let us have 20% of your business.

如果他们不答应，就毁掉这家企业，转而扶持他们的竞争对手。

And if they don't do it, then destroy it in favor of their competition.

明白吗？

Know?

没错。

Exactly.

整个这件事用加密货币的术语来说，就像一次代际的跑路骗局。

This whole thing can sort of be described in crypto terms as like a generational rug pull.

明白吗？

Know?

他们最初声称要做的，和最终实际发生的情况根本不一样。

The thing that even they said going in is not what it happened, what became.

那些理解这一点的人开始发声。

And the people who understood that started speaking out.

但到那时已经太晚了。

But at that point it was already too late.

我想对美国人，尤其是纽约人来说，这里有一个教训。

And you know for the in this, there is a lesson I would say for Americans, especially New Yorkers.

马达尼的言辞与霍梅尼向人民许诺的内容非常相似。

Mamdani's rhetoric was very similar to what Khomeini was promising the people.

我的意思是，自由，给每个人提供福利。

I mean, the freedoms, all the welfare for everyone.

免费，所有东西都免费。

Free Free everything.

是的。

Yeah.

我们对这个很熟悉。

Like, we are familiar with this.

我们看到了事情最终变成了什么样。

And we saw how that turned out.

如今许多怨恨也是由国家财富和资源的腐败与管理不善造成的。

And a lot of the resentment today is just also caused by the corruption and the mismanagement of the country's wealth and resources.

如果人们能够获得水和食物，拥有经济机会，而不是与整个世界隔绝，或许就不会对政府有如此多的敌意，但他们连国家都管不好。

If people could, you know, get their water and their food, you know, and had economic opportunities weren't isolated from the whole world, there might not be as much animosity against the government, but they can't even manage the country.

是的。

Yeah.

阿萨纳在阐述伊斯兰政权的使命时提到，就是要利用国家资源来改善人民生活。

One of the things that Asana read out in the, mandate of the Islamic regime was, just, you know, use the resources of the country to better the people.

但实际情况是，大量资金被流向了伊朗的一些代理人。

Well, what what actually happened is it that money a lot of that money got funneled into some of Iran's proxies.

还有200亿美元被投入到伊朗的核计划中，据我们所知，这个项目最终完全失败了。

It also got funneled $20,000,000,000 is like the Chachi Bouti number for how much money Iran has invested in its nuclear program, which is as far as we understand to be completely destroyed.

所以，所有这些本可以用于桥梁、基础设施、清洁水源的投资，值得注意的是，伊朗各地正面临严重的水资源危机，因为全国的基础设施状况极其糟糕，而这正是腐败的必然结果。

So, you know, all that investment that could have gone into bridges, infrastructure, clean water, it's worth noting that, like, there is a water crisis across Iran because the infrastructure across Iran is so terrible, which is, you know, a pretty logical outcome of of corruption.

我想

I I wanna

对他们来说，这并不是优先事项。

It's not a priority for them.

没错。

Right.

这个

The

人民不是他们的优先事项。

people are not a priority.

这并不是说，我面前正好有一句霍梅尼的名言。

That's it's not like, I have a I have a Khomeini quote in front of me.

我给你快速念一下。

I'll read you real quick.

它说，我们不崇拜伊朗。

It says, we do not worship Iran.

我们崇拜安拉。

We worship Allah.

爱国主义是异教的另一种说法。

For patriotism is another name for paganism.

我说，让这片土地伊朗燃烧吧。

I say let this land Iran burn.

我说，让这片土地化为灰烬，只要伊斯兰教能在世界其他地方取得胜利。

I say let this land go up in smoke provided Islam emerges triumphant in the rest of the world.

我认为值得强调这一点。

I think it's worth highlighting that.

让这片土地燃烧吧。

Let this land burn.

我的意思是，很多人可能天真地以为，如果抗议声足够大，政权就会说：‘哦，你知道吗？’

It's like, I I think a lot of people just might naively think that, like, you know, that maybe there there is if the protests get loud enough, the regime will be like, oh, you know what?

也许人民是对的。

Maybe the people are right.

也许我们会直接让位。

Maybe we'll just step down.

你知道的。

You know?

哎呀。

Whoopsies.

那我该怎么回应呢？

What respond to that, I mean.

当然。

Sure.

不幸的是，沙阿比那些毛拉们要好得多，也更爱伊朗。

Unfortunately, the Shah was a much better man and loved Iran much more than the Mullahs.

当1979年沙阿面临抉择，是向自己的人民开枪，还是让位的时候。

When when it came time for the Shah to, in 1979, decide if he wanted to turn his guns on his people or step down.

他选择了退位。

He chose to step down.

他最后说的一句话是，历史不会掩盖真相。

And one of his final words that he said is his history will like, you can't hide the truth from history.

他相信伊朗人民终将识破他们所听到的谎言，明白自己是如何被误导的，并最终找到正确的道路。

And he was betting that the people of Iran would figure out the lies that they were told and how they were misled and eventually find their way.

这些毛拉们可不是这样的。

The mullahs are not like that.

正如他们所展示的那样，他们毫不犹豫地向自己的人民开枪。

They have no hesitation as they've shown in turning their guns on their people.

如果这符合他们的利益，而且他们觉得这是生存所必需的，他们会不惜烧毁整个国家和所有人民，只为在灰烬中多当一周的国王。

And if it benefits them and they feel that this is what they need to do in order to survive, they will burn down the country and everybody in it just to be king of the ashes for an extra week.

我甚至不会说是管理不善。

I wouldn't even say mismanagement.

他们是主动憎恨伊朗和伊朗人，并愿意为心中那些愚蠢的信念牺牲一切，而这些信念本质上不过是想在伊斯兰世界中维持权力。

Actively hate Iran and Iranians and they are ready to sacrifice that for whatever stupid cause they have in their mind, which is basically like holding power within Islamic world.

不知怎么的，竟然有马克思主义者支持他，这简直难以置信，但确实发生了，而且今天我们依然能看到这种情况。

And somehow they got Marxists supporting him, which is quite unbelievable, but it happened and we are seeing happening even today.

你提到了性别隔离。

You brought up the gendered apartheid.

我想再多谈一点这个话题，因为我觉得我们之前并没有充分讨论它。

I want to just touch on that a little bit more because I don't think we really did it justice.

在西方，自由派人士非常喜欢用《使女的故事》作为象征，提醒我们绝不能让类似的事情在美国发生。

In in the West, Western liberals really like to use the Handsmaid's Tale as, like, a symbol of something we need to avoid here in America.

坦白说，他们确实在有效地让西方社会对任何接近《使女的故事》的情景保持警惕——那是一部关于神权统治、压迫性、极权主义的科幻未来小说，后来被拍成了电视剧，讲述一个神权政权的故事。

And, like, to their credit, they are doing a fantastic job inoculating the West against anything close to the Handsmaid's Tale story, which is another, like, theocratic, oppressive, totalitarian, sci fi futuristic fiction novel that I think got turned into a TV show about just a a theocratic regime.

我不知道这是否准确，但感觉它和伊朗当前的情况关联性相当薄弱。

I I don't know if this is true, but it seems pretty loosely related to what's going on in Iran.

也许你可以进一步解释一下，具体说明一下所谓的‘性别隔离’究竟是怎么回事。

Maybe you can talk about just, like just illustrate, illuminate this, like, gender in apartheid a little bit more.

伊朗女性究竟要经历哪些可怕的遭遇？

What are some of the horrors that women have to go through in Iran?

这是个很好的例子。

That was a good example.

当我看《使女的故事》时，我一直在跟人说，我在看这部剧。

When I was watching Ham's Mane Tale, I was just telling people, was watching it.

这简直就是伊朗。

Was like, this is Iran.

这就是伊朗正在发生的事。

This is what's happening in Iran.

为了让你了解一些伊朗的实际情况，比如，女性不能担任某些职位。

And just to give you some, like some of the examples in Iran, women cannot hold like certain positions.

男女之间存在官方的薪酬差距。

There is an official pay gap between men and women.

女性如果没有丈夫的许可，就没有权利离开国家。

Women do not have the right to leave the country unless their husbands give them permission.

除非丈夫签字同意，否则她们没有权利离婚。

They don't have the right to divorce unless their husband signs and gives them the right to divorce.

如果她们离婚，甚至可能失去孩子的监护权。

They can even lose their right to the custody rights of having their children if they divorce.

全国范围内禁止堕胎，没有任何例外情况。

There is no, there is a national abortion ban and there are no circumstances.

有关于堕胎、头巾法，甚至我们连穿什么衣服都没有选择权。

There is an abortion, hijab laws, or we cannot even choose what we want to wear.

你可能会因为这个被逮捕。

You get arrested for that.

你可能会因为这个被道德警察殴打。

You get beat up by the morality police for that.

你可能会因为这个被罚款。

You get fined for it.

整个玛萨·阿米尼运动的爆发，源于一位普通的库尔德妇女——玛萨·阿米尼，仅仅因为她没有戴头巾就被道德警察殴打。

Like the whole Mass the whole Massahamini movement happened as a result of like, oh, you know, just some normal Kurdish woman, Gina, you know, Massa Amini, beaten by the morality police for not wearing her hijab.

这种事情经常发生，人们已经受够了。

And this happens all the time and people are sick of it.

这就是三年前人们开始抗议的动机。

And that was the motivation to up, you know, start protesting, you know, three years ago.

只是想让你知道，就我个人的经历而言，我每天都会去上学或者坐火车上学。

Just just to let you know, like my own experience, like I would go to school every day or take the train, go to school.

在路上，经常会遇到警察设卡检查。

On my way, there were police stops.

那里有大型的警车。

Like there was there were this big van, police vans.

车上会有两名女性，穿着一种叫查多尔的长袍，那是保守女性用来遮盖身体的长面纱，她们会过来骚扰你，强迫你遮住头发；或者如果你穿的上衣太短——我们叫它‘曼图’，是一种长至膝盖的长衫。

They had like two women with like covers like what is called chadors this like long veil that people that women cover themselves with like very conservative women and they will come up to you and harass you basically force you to like cover your hair or if you had like let's say short shirt but we call it mantou is like a long shirt that we wear it comes to like our knees, up to our knees.

如果衣服短于一定长度，他们就会逮捕你，把你带到警察局，你的监护人——也就是你的父母——必须来签字，并给你带来新的衣服。

If it was like short, shorter than a certain amount, they arrest you and basically take you to a police station and your guardian, your parents has to come and sign something and bring you new clothing.

然后我才会到达大学。

And then I would get to the university.

我一路上都会看到这些情况。

I would see that on my way.

然后我就到了大学。

And then I would get to the university.

在沙里夫大学，我认为伊朗每一所大学都有两个不同的门。

Had at Sharif and I think every university in Iran, there were two different doors.

一扇门是给男生用的。

One door was for men.

另一扇门是给女生用的。

Another door was for women.

当你走过时，必须经过一个房间，里面有人坐着，仔细打量你穿的衣服。

As you are walking through, you have to pass through a room where someone is sitting there and basically looking at what you're wearing.

如果你穿的衣服不合规范，不符合他们的标准，他们就不让你进学校。

And if what you're wearing is not appropriate and does not meet their standards, they don't let you go into the school.

比如，作为女性，如果我涂了指甲油，他们就会把我赶出去。

Like I had, like as a woman, if I had nail polish, they would kick me out.

如果我的衬衫太短，他们也会把我赶出去。

If my shirt was short, they would kick me out.

如果我没戴特定的头巾，他们就会把我赶出去。

If I was not wearing a certain head covering, they would kick me out.

这种情况发生过很多次。

And this happened to me like multiple times.

如果我们在校园里，女性如果想躺在草地上，保安就会过来，赶我们走或强迫我们离开。

If we were on campus, if we would like lay down on the grass, if women would lay down on the grass, the security would come and basically kick you out or force you to leave.

但男性可以自由地躺在任何他们想躺的地方。

But men were free to lay down anywhere they wanted.

这就像每天反复发生的事。

And this was like a daily thing over and over again.

这是我每天生活的一部分，走在街上，去大学。

That was something I lived with every single day, walking through the street, going to university.

我可以举一个例子，当我了解到女性在被处决时所遭受的待遇时，这真的深深伤害了我。

I can bring up just like one of the more examples that this really fucked with me when I learned about it of women are treated by the police in situations where they are to be executed.

据称，在伊斯兰教中，处决一名处女女性是一种罪行。

The it's apparently a crime in Islam to execute a virgin woman.

所以他们会让警察中的一人与她结婚，当晚剥夺她的处女之身，然后在处决后向她的家人展示尸体，并提供一笔嫁妆作为婚姻的补偿。

And so what they would do is marry her to one of the police officers who would then take her virginity that night, and then they would present the family after the execution with a body and a dowry for the marriage.

是的。

Yeah.

这里的细节有些奇怪。

Does in the detail details are weird here.

她必须同意这段婚姻吗？

Does she have to consent to being married

不。

No.

在这种情况下？

Under that context?

不。

No.

她不能。

She can No.

不，她不可能被结婚。

No Marriage can happen to her.

这本质上是一种强奸，只是得到了伊斯兰教士的许可，因为伊斯兰教中存在一种临时婚姻的概念，教士可以为你与某人缔结临时婚姻。

It's it's a rape that's just essentially sanctioned by the Islamic cleric for there is a concept of temporary marriage in Islam where a cleric can marry you temporarily to somebody.

所以他们会把她临时嫁给他们的某位官员，然后让她遭受强奸。

And so they would temporarily marry her to one of their, you know, officers and then have her raped.

然后这就会被说成是安拉的旨意。

And then it would be, you know, by the will of Allah.

然后他们会，你知道的，处决她。

And then they would, you know, execute her.

需要注意的一点是，在伊朗，女性不需要同意。

One thing to notice is in Iran, woman, there's no need for a woman to consent.

没有人会征询她们对婚姻的同意。

No one asks for their consent for marriage.

他们会问她们

They ask their

所以，如果我想结婚，我父亲必须同意。

So father's if I wanted to get married, my father would have to give me consent.

如果我父亲不同意，我就不能结婚。

If my father didn't consent, I was not allowed to get married.

而当涉及到阿明所说的那种情况时，就连你的父亲也没有发言权。

And then when it comes to a situation like what Amin was saying, that's where even your father does not have a right to say anything.

那时，神的权威会替你做主，为你同意。

That's when have a divine authority over your life to consent for you.

根据《古兰经》的教义，所有女性所能得到的只有嫁妆。

And all women get, this is according to textbook of Quran, all women get is the dowry.

所以经文说，你可以娶你的女奴。

So it says you can marry your female slaves.

顺便说一下，他们确实有奴隶。

By the way, they had slaves.

只要你支付嫁妆，就可以娶你的女奴。

You can marry your female slaves as long as you pay the dowry.

不需要同意。

No need for consent.

当他们强奸并处决一名女性时，这一切都是为了让她无法进入天堂。

And this is all when they execute when they rape and execute a woman, this is so that she does not go to heaven.

没错。

That's right.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

她根本不相信天堂的存在。

She's she doesn't even believe in heaven.

那根本不是她的天堂。

It's not even her heaven.

不是。

No.

那只是他们的天堂

It's just their heaven that

是的

Yeah.

对

Right.

他们想确保她去不了他们的天堂。

They wanna make sure she doesn't go to their heaven.

对

Right.

我漏掉了这个细节。

I left that detail out.

谢谢你，是的。

Thank you for Yeah.

我不久前看过一部电影，叫《索拉雅·M的石刑》。

There's a movie that I watched not terribly long ago called The The Stoning of Soraya M.

它讲述了一位记者偶然来到一个村庄，一位妇女向他讲述了刚刚发生的事——这位妇女嫁给了一个男人，而这个男人想摆脱她。

It's a it follows this journalist who stumbled into this village who a woman has tells her the story that just happened as this journalist comes to this village of this this woman who was married to this man, and this man wanted to be rid of her.

这不仅仅是一个关于伊朗对女性严重侵犯人权的故事，也涉及了我之前提到的那种腐败核心——这个男人必须除掉他的妻子。

And this is not only just a story of just, like, the complete human rights violations that Iran has on his women, but also kind of that that corruption backbone that I was talking about, where this man needs needs to be rid of his wife.

他只是想摆脱妻子，不再为她操心，然后可以再娶别人。

He just wants to be rid of his wife so he can go on his way, not have to worry about her, marry and marry somebody else.

于是他去找了镇上的市长，我想这个词应该是对的。

And so he goes to the the local mayor of the town, I guess, is the right word.

当然可能有更准确的词，但就是镇长，他策划了一个阴谋，诬陷妻子通奸，而她真的被这样指控了。

I'm sure there's a more precise word, but, like, mayor of the town, and there the plots of conspiracy to falsely accuse his wife of adultery, which she goes and does.

然后镇上的人聚集起来举行了一场类似法庭的审判，包括女人的父亲。在电影里，被指控的女性说：‘那是我父亲。’

And then the town gathers to have a sort of courtroom, which includes the woman's father, and in in the movie, the the woman being accused is like, it's my father.

他只会顺从他们说的任何话。

He's just going to go along with whatever they say.

于是，她被错误地判处石刑，而她根本从未通奸。

And and so she is sentenced to be stoned falsely after being falsely accused of of adultery which never happened.

她被判处石刑，她的丈夫、父亲和两个儿子被命令首先向她扔石头，因为她被活埋到腰部，动弹不得，最终在这一幕中死去。

She is she's sentenced to be stoned and her husband and her father and her two sons are given the first rocks to be thrown at her as she is buried halfway up to her waist in the ground so she can't move and then she dies in that scene.

这确实是一个真实的故事。

And this this is a true story.

这是一个真实的故事。

This is a true story.

这件事被一位第二天途经该镇的法国记者听闻，并发生在1986年。

It was happened to be told to a French journalist who was passing through the town the next day, and this happened in in 1986.

所以四十年前，也许伊朗那时已经现代化了，但我并不抱任何乐观态度。

So forty years ago, maybe Iran is modernized by then, but I'm not optimistic by any means.

我觉得这是一个很好的例子，用来展现对女性的残暴、野蛮以及二等地位，还有那种根深蒂固的腐败现象。

I think it was just a good a good anecdote to, a, show the brutality and the barbarism and the second class nature of women as as well as this backbone of corruption where, like, okay.

当然。

Sure.

你有《古兰经》的法律，但有时候，如果你认识对的人、用对的方式，连这些法律也不算数。

You have the laws of the Quran, but not even they matter at times if you know the right people in the right ways.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道他们要证明那个女人出轨，需要什么吗？

And you know what they need to prove that like that woman cheated on her husband.

如果有男性目击者，需要两名；如果是女性目击者，则需要四名。

You need two eyewitnesses if there are men or four eyewitnesses if they are women.

所以，女性的证词相当于男性的一半。

So a woman's testimony is half of a man.

我们来谈谈现代，当下的事件。

Let's get into modern times, current events.

当下的事件。

Current events.

我们会讨论抗议活动，但我也想回顾一下抗议活动的历史。

We'll talk about protests, but also I wanna go through the kind of some some of history of protests as well.

过去四十五年左右，据我所知，维基百科上记录了大约十六次重大抗议活动。

There's been 16 major protests, I think if you go to Wikipedia, roughly over the last forty five years.

我猜其实还有那么多抗议活动，根本没必要全都记录下来吧？

I'm guessing that there also just are so many protests that, like, why document them all?

但至少有16次抗议活动获得了维基百科的页面。

But it's at least 16 protests that have earned Wikipedia pages at the very least.

在这些抗议活动中，每一次都有记录显示政权为了镇压抗议而造成的死亡。

Of of those protests, every single one of them has documented killings from the regime in order to crack down and and and the protests.

伊朗人明明知道有人会死，甚至可能死的是自己，为什么还要一次又一次地走上街头抗议？

Why do the Iranians continue to go out and protest over and over and over again when they know that somebody is going to die and it could be them?

他们似乎每隔一两年就重复这种仪式，再次走上街头抗议，然后政权再次镇压。

They they continue to just go out seemingly like a ritual every one, two, three, four years and protest again and have the regime crack down again.

他们为什么一直这么做？

Why do they keep on doing it?

我认为其中一个原因是，即使你不出门，也无法保证自己不会被政权杀害。

I would say one is that even if you don't go out, there is no guarantee you're not gonna die or you're not gonna get killed by the regime.

这些杀戮是如此随机。

The killings are so random.

你做的任何事，比如在社交媒体上说句话，都可能让你丧命。

Anything you do as much as like saying something on social media can get you killed.

所以你有无数种方式可能被杀，即使你不出门，也无法保证自己不会被杀害。

So there are really many ways that you can get killed and there's no guarantee that you won't be killed if you don't go out.

其次，我认为局势已经糟糕到人们觉得没什么可失去的了，除非你无论如何都要直面它，否则没有其他出路。

And second, I would say the situations are so dire that people feel like they have nothing to lose and there is no other way out of this unless you face it however you can.

还有一点是，我们早就知道这个政权的残暴，对此非常清楚，但即便如此，我们依然对它们如何镇压人民感到震惊。

And one thing is that, I mean, we knew the brutality of this regime, we were very much aware of it, but I think even though we knew it, we are still in this belief in shock of how they crack down on the people.

我个人感到非常震惊。

I personally was shocked.

我的意思是，我从小父亲就告诉我，这些人根本不是人。

Mean, I always, I grew up with my father telling me these people are not humans.

他们是野兽，什么事都做得出来，任何你所能想象的事，你都想不到他们竟然能做到。

They are wild animals that can do anything like anything you can imagine and you cannot imagine they're capable of.

但我还是震惊于他们怎么能直接射杀一个孩子？

But I was still in shock of how can you just shot a child?

这在任何世界上都是难以置信的。

Like that is unbelievable in any world.

但确实，我觉得人们看不到其他出路。

But yeah, think I think people do not see any other way.

当现代抗议活动规模扩大时，政权几乎立即切断了互联网，伊朗政权经常封锁抗议活动或切断互联网。

The regime shut down the internet maybe basically as soon as the modern the current protests got large and the Iranian regime shuts down protests or shut down shuts down the Internet all the time.

我最初听到的一些解释是：为什么伊朗政权要切断互联网？

And, like, some of the the first explanations I heard was, like, why does the Iranian regime shut down the Internet?

哦，是为了阻止抗议者协调行动。

It's like, oh, well, to prevent protesters from coordinating.

对吧？

Right?

为了压制信息传播。

To to suppress to suppress information.

毕竟，他们只是普通人，根本得不到任何信息。

So, like, you know, the the they're just people, and they just don't have any information.

因此这削弱了抗议活动，这可能也是事实。

So it's it weakens the protest, which is probably also true.

我的意思是，你为什么这么认为？

I mean, why do you think?

你觉得伊朗政权为什么要关闭互联网？

What what would you say to why the Iranian regime shuts down the Internet?

如果你打算屠杀数万人，你当然不希望这些视频被上传出去。

If you're about to massacre tens of thousands of people, you don't want these videos getting uploaded.

你希望有时间去找到每个人，并尽可能遏制媒体的传播。

You want time to be able to find everybody and try to mitigate as much of the media distribution as possible.

他们试图阻止任何人从内部联系外部的人。

And they are trying to prevent anybody from the inside of, you know, contacting people on the outside.

这个国家可能只有几万个星链终端。

There's only maybe tens of thousands of Starlinks in the country.

对吧？

Right?

我不确定。

I don't know.

最多也就十万左右，但这人数并不多。

Up to a 100 k tops, but that's not a lot of people.

所以，据报告，比如说，

And and so, know, that there there are reports, for example.

一开始，人们说可能有两千人被杀了。

You know, initially, were like, oh, maybe they killed 2,000 people.

我们不确定，因为我们没有互联网。

We're not sure because we we didn't have the Internet.

这些人并不傻。

And these guys aren't dumb.

对吧？

Right?

他们了解新闻周期。

They understand news cycles.

他们了解我们的社交媒体注意力持续时间。

They understand our social media attention spans.

对吧？

Right?

所以他们知道，如果能把他们的残忍行为集中在很短的时间内，之后只放出少量零星的后续内容，人们就会转移注意力并遗忘。

And so they know that if they can concentrate as much of their cruelty into a short span of time where afterwards there is limited amount of, you know, dripped content that is coming out about it that people will move on and forget.

是的。

Right.

所以，比如在一周或两周后，当他们决定重新开放互联网时，新的视频就会出现。

So so like in a in a week or two weeks, whenever they decide to turn the Internet back on, new videos will surface

两个月。

two months.

然后西方的人就会说：哦，我已经听说过伊朗大屠杀的事了。

And then and then people in the West be like, oh, I I already heard about the Iranian massacre.

那对我来说已经是旧闻了。

Like, that's old news to me.

让我

Let me

滑过那个视频。

scroll past that video.

对。

Right.

还有那些数字。

And and the numbers.

对吧？

Right?

他们就是想阻止任何人准确了解这场暴行的规模。

They they wanna prevent anybody from getting an accurate sense of the scale of the atrocity.

对吧？

Right?

而且还有来自一些小镇的额外报告，那些地方没有人有Starlink，据说这些小镇实际上遭受了最严重的袭击，但没人知道，因为他们没有任何联系。

And so there there are like additional reports coming in from smaller towns where nobody has a Starlink that, you know, say those towns were actually hits in some cases the hardest and nobody hears about it because they don't have any contact.

你知道，这不仅仅是外部互联网连接断了。

You know, it's not it's not like just the external connection with the Internet is down.

而且人与人之间的内部联系也断了，通常电话也是如此。

It's also the internal connections between people are also down and you know, oftentimes telephones.

因此，伊斯兰革命卫队和国家机器正在运行他们自己的互联网。

And so you know, the IRGC and the apparat the state apparatus is running its own Internet.

这样他们就能彼此沟通和协调。

And so they can communicate with each other and coordinate.

我认为另一件阻止人们获取外界信息的事情是。

Another thing I think is stopping people from receiving information from outside world.

比如，特朗普总统向政权发出的警告，民众是听到了的。

Like for example, the warning that president Trump sent to the regime was heard by the people.

很多人在几天后选择回去的一个动机是，这次他们镇压我们，一定会付出代价。

One motivation for a lot of people to go back after days was that there is this time, there's going to be consequences for the way they crack down on us.

所以我会回去。

So I will go.

或者他们会收到类似的消息，比如，这件事引起了关注。

Or they would receive like news of like, okay, this is getting attention.

这件事正在获得动力。

This is getting momentum.

这件事正在获得国际社会的支持。

This is getting support from the international community.

所以我们这次有机会。

So we have a chance this time.

正是这种感觉让人们走上街头，他们觉得：我们这次有机会了。

Like that was what really drove people to the streets that they felt like, we have a chance this time.

这次不一样。

This time is different.

这次感觉不一样。

This time feels different.

一个月来，他们一直在接收关于伊斯兰共和国失去其民兵组织的信息，比如在十二天战争后、对真主党镇压后，它真的被削弱了，人们注意到了这些变化，现在人们会听到这些消息，他们失去了委内瑞拉。

For a month, they were receiving information about the Islamic Republic losing its militias, like really getting weakened by like after the twelve days war, after the crackdown on Hezbollah, like people notice things, people hear these things now, They lost Venezuela.

他们什么都没了。

They lost everything.

他们比以往任何时候都更虚弱。

They were weaker than ever.

所以我们有机会。

So we have a chance.

我们正在获得支持。

We are gaining support.

他们正在支持我们。

They are supporting us.

我们正在得到美国总统的支持，这与过去任何一次起义都不同。

We are getting support from the president of The United States, unlike any of the other uprisings in the past.

这些真的非常重要。

These are really, really important things.

另一点是，该政权主要依靠宣传运作。

And another thing is that the regime really operates on propaganda.

所以当外界没有信息传出、也没有信息传入时，他们就能控制双方的舆论。

So when there is nothing going out and nothing going in, they can control narrative in both sides.

他们对外控制叙事，声称这些抗议者并非 unarmed 平民。

They control narrative outside of Iran saying that, oh, these protesters were not unarmed civilians.

他们是中情局和摩萨德特工。

They were CIA Mossad agents.

他们携带武器。

They were armed.

他们杀害了官员。

They were killing officers.

他们向他们开枪。

They were shooting them.

而在内部，他们却说：‘是的，我们已经镇压了。’

And then from the inside, they can be like, hey, yeah, we killed it.

一切现在已经结束了。

Everything is now done.

你们得不到任何支持。

You're not receiving any support.

没有人会来救你们。

No one is coming to save you.

这就是为什么他们在伊朗国家媒体上大肆宣扬，哦，我们打败了美国。

So that is why they are blasting on Iran state media that, oh, we defeated The U.

我们

S.

在十二天的战争中我们打败了以色列，他们实际上失去了伊朗的领空权。

We defeated Israel after twelve days war where they literally lost the airspace of Iran.

政权在大概两天内就失去了制空权，甚至可能更短。

The regime lost the airspace within like, I think two days, if not less.

另一方面，在伊朗国家媒体上，他们却在宣扬完全相反的内容，比如：看，我们正在摧毁以色列。

On the other hand, on Iran state media, they were blasting something complete opposite like, look, we are burning Israel down.

以色列被打败了。

Israel is defeated.

我们击败了以色列。

We defeated Israel.

我们掌控一切。

We have control over everything.

完全是1984式的虚假信息。

Complete nineteen eighty four misinformation.

所以当你向人们灌输这些信息时，你实际上是在夺走他们的希望。

So when you are feeding people with that information, then you are basically taking their hope away.

是的。

Yeah.

你不会赢的。

That, oh, you're not gonna win this.

你已经输了。

You lost it already.

人们知道吗？

Do the people know?

比如，当他们看到伊朗的广播说，嘿。

Like, when they see the Iranian broadcast of, hey.

我们正在烧毁以色列。

We are burning down Israel.

人们知道这是胡说八道吗？

Do the people know it's, that's a bunch of bullshit.

或者，你觉得怎么样？

Or, like, what what what do you think?

是的。

Yeah.

人们都知道。

People know.

对。

Yeah.

除了那些明显的边缘群体——比如政权支持者、宗教保守派或忠于政权的人，我认为他们占全国人口的极少数，可能不到10%。

Other than like, obviously the fringe that are regime supporters, religious conservatives, or loyalists that I would say are very low percentage of the entire country, maybe like less than 10%.

除了这些人之外，绝大多数人，尤其是与外部世界保持联系的年轻一代，都非常清楚。

Other than those people, the majority of the people, especially young generation who is in touch with the outside world, they know very well.

没人再看他们的电视了。

No one even watches their TV anymore.

我们还注意到，在抗议活动初期，雷扎·巴列维——前沙阿的王储——他的一个视频在Instagram上获得了大约八千万次观看。

One of the things that we also saw was like in the initial week of the protest, like Reza Pahlavi, the crown prince, the son of the former shah, like his Instagram got like, I don't know, 80,000,000 views on like one of his videos.

这可是所有人啊。

That's everybody.

伊朗总共有九千万人，大约一千万在国外。

Like there's 90,000,000 Iranians and like maybe 10,000,000 outside.

每个人都看到了。

Like everybody saw that.

对吧？

Right?

如果你是政权，看到这种情况一定会感到害怕。

And so if you're the regime and you see that, that that scares you.

因为这意味着你意识到，人民正在关注我们所描述的反对派领袖——王储雷扎·巴列维，这确实说明了问题。

Because then you understand that the people are paying attention to the lead, know, who we have, you know, described the leader of the opposition, Crown Prince Rasupadhavi and that is a credit like, that is what they're It's Yeah.

然后当他们切断互联网时，这些浏览量从八千万骤降到三。

And then and then when they cut off the Internet, those views went from 80 I think it went from 80,000,000 down to three.

五。

Five.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

在加密货币领域，很少有人在公开预测顶部或底部时真正押上真金白银。

Few people in crypto put real skin in the game when they make public top or bottom calls.

《DeFi报告》就是其中之一。

The DeFi report is one of them.

在10月10日闪崩前一周，DeFi报告的迈克尔发邮件给他的整个通讯订阅者，称他将大幅降低风险，把大部分加密资产抛售换成现金。

The week before the October 10 flash crash, Michael from the DeFi report emailed his entire newsletter saying he's going aggressively risk off and sold the majority of his book from crypto into cash.

当时以太坊价格约为4000美元，比特币约为11000美元。

This is when ETH was about $4,000 and Bitcoin was a 110.

迈克尔运营着DeFi报告，这是一个基于数据、周期洞察、风险管理、透明度，最重要的是，具有真正利益绑定的行业领先研究平台。

Michael runs the DeFi report, an industry leading research platform built on data, cycle awareness, risk management, transparency, and most importantly, skin in the game.

我们在Bankless很喜欢迈克尔。

We like Michael at Bankless.

我们喜欢他的分析，这就是为什么你大约每个月都能在Bankless播客上听到他。

We like his analysis, and that's why you hear him on the Bankless podcast about once a month.

DeFi报告正在为Bankless的听众提供一个月的免费访问权限。

And the DeFi report is giving Bankless listeners one free month of access to the DeFi report.

所以，如果你正在寻找一些敏锐、以数据为驱动的分析，以更好地为你的投资组合做出决策，你可以在DeFi报告专业版中了解迈克尔是如何预判顶部的，以及他接下来的行动。

So if you're looking for some sharp, data driven analysis to make better informed decisions around your portfolio, you can learn why and how Michael called the top and what he's doing next, all in the DeFi report pro.

去看看吧。

Check it out.

链接在节目说明中。

There is a link in the show notes.

然后想象一下，当你在伊朗这样做时，伊朗境外还存在着我们所谓的政权辩护者网络。

And then imagine at the same time that you do this in Iran, outside of Iran, they have their networks of what we call regime apologists.

美国和欧洲的机构里都有学者。

There are scholars in American institutions and European institutions.

还有记者。

There are journalists.

还有一些智库积极为他们传播宣传。

There are think tanks that actively push their propaganda for them.

所以他们也试图在这里主导叙事。

So they try to dominate the narrative here too.

我一位伊朗朋友给我讲了个故事，他的亲戚正和一位穆斯林男子订婚，她本不想去和他们聚会，因为她了解这个人的立场，但这件事还是被提起了。

I was told a story by one of my Iranian friends who has a relative who is engaged to a Muslim man, and she was invited to hang out with she didn't want to because she knew the nature of this individual, but it was brought up.

他们聚会时谈到了伊朗的抗议活动。

The Iranian protests were brought up while the three of them were hanging out.

她的亲戚说，像是记不清了。

And it was said by the her relatives that, like can't remember.

不知道那家伙的名字，但她说，我未婚夫说他认为伊朗抗议是假的，我也这么认为。

Don't know the guy's name, but, like, my fiancee, he says he thinks, the Iranian protests are fake, and I I think so too.

这两个人在美国。

These two people are here in America.

我不是在谈论伊朗的人。

I'm not talking about people in Iran.

这是一位美国穆斯林和他的未婚妻，他说，哦，是的。

This is a and there's an American Muslim and his fiancee, and he is saying like, oh, yeah.

伊朗的抗议？

The Iranian protest?

假的。

Fake.

不是真的。

Not real.

我简直惊呆了。

And, like, my jaw dropped.

而且，外面也有不少人处于伊朗政权的影响和控制之下。

And that, like, there's there's people outside of Iran who are also in the Iranian regime's sphere of influence and control.

这让我震惊不已。

That astounded me.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，有一个叫伊朗裔美国人理事会的组织，简称NIAC。

You know, there is National Iranian American Council, NIAC.

它非常有名。

It's very famous.

它是一个非营利组织，但从成立之初到现在，他们一直在做的是。

It's a nonprofit organization, but all they've been doing since their foundation, this is the beginning.

我认为他们是在2000年初由特里塔·帕尔西创立的。

I think they were founded in early two thousand by Trita Parsi.

他们所做的基本上就是在西方传播伊斯兰共和国的宣传，他们影响力很强，人脉广泛。

And all they do is basically push the Islamic Republic propaganda in the West and they have a really strong influence and they have a lot of connections.

比如，他们的记者会去《金融时报》、《纽约时报》等媒体撰文。

So like for example their journalists go write an article in financial times, in New York times.

他们还会去CNN、CBS、BBC等媒体做采访。

And they go do interviews at CNN, CBS, all of these BBC or

他们帮助在西方传播伊朗伊斯兰共和国的叙事，你知道，你可以看到他们讲话的视频，然后伊朗伊斯兰共和国的人也说同样的话。

They help propagate the Islamic Republic's narrative in the West, you know, and you can see videos of like them talking and then like the Islamic Republic people talking and you're like, they're saying the same thing.

是的。

Yep.

你

You

你知道，我们为什么要听这个家伙的话？

know, like, why would we listen to this guy?

比如一开始，《纽约时报》就刊登过一篇文章，内容完全和伊朗国家媒体的说法一致。

Like right in the beginning, there was this article on New York Times where basically they were saying exactly what the Iran state media was saying.

不，一切都很好。

No, everything is okay.

我的意思是，确实有一些抗议活动，但都发生在低收入社区，而滑雪场全都开着，而且人满为患。

I mean, there were some protests, but they were in lower income neighborhoods, but the ski resorts are all open and they were full.

人们过着正常的生活。

People are living their normal lives.

然后我们有些人actively声称，抗议活动仅仅是因为经济原因。

And then we have some of them actively saying first, the protests are only for economical reasons.

经济之所以崩溃，是因为制裁。

And the economy is collapsing because of the sanctions.

那谁该为此负责呢？

And who's to blame for that?

美国。

America.

所以一切都是美国的错。

So it's all America's fault.

西方帝国主义，对吧？

Western imperialism, right?

是的。

Yeah.

西方帝国主义，帝国主义者。

Western imperialism, imperialists.

这是他们的错。

That's their fault.

一些武装抗议活动，比如那些被杀的抗议者，他们是持械的。

And some of these armed protests, like the protesters that were killed, they were armed.

他们并不是无缘无故被政权杀害的。

They were not killed by the regime for no reason.

他们是持械的。

They were armed.

然后你看看那些被杀的人的名单：16岁、17岁、15岁，还有3岁、5岁的孩子。

And then you look at the list of the people killed 16 years old, 17 years old, 15 years old, three years old, five years old.

这些人都持械吗？

Are these all armed?

这些太吓人了。

Like, these are scary.

有些抗议活动就像是家庭聚会。

Some of these protests were like family affairs.

有推着婴儿车的人，还有祖父母，你知道的？

There's like people with strollers and grandparents, you know?

我

I

认识一个孩子才12岁就被射中眼睛的人。

know someone whose 12 years old child was shot in the eye.

12岁。

12 years old.

他们当时是和家人一起出门的。

They were like going out with their families.

这些是政权经常宣扬的著名论点，这些组织和个人也在美国媒体上大力传播这些说法。

And these are very famous talking points of the regime that these organizations and these individuals also blast here in American media.

为什么西方，还有我的社交媒体圈子里，这么多人对伊朗感到困惑？

Why does the West, the the my sphere of of social media, so many people seem to be confused about Iran?

在我看来，根据我的理解，关于谁站在历史正确的一方、谁是邪恶的，这里的道德界限分明得就像黑夜与白天。

And to me, as I understand it, the moral clarity here as to like what is who's on the right side of history and who is evil is night and day.

当我跟家人交谈，或者跟那些原本漠不关心的人聊天时，他们似乎完全没有我或你们所拥有的这种清晰认知。

And I go talk to my family, I go talk to, you know, otherwise indifferent people and they just don't seem to have the same sense of clarity that I have or or what what what you guys have.

所以，不行。

So it's like, no.

不行。

No.

不行。

No.

不行。

No.

别忘了伊朗政权有多么邪恶。

Don't forget about how evil the Iranian regime is.

为什么在这一时期，有这么多人对这件事感到困惑？

It's this period why why are so many people confused about this?

这取决于你的社交媒体圈子，但我这里要做一些假设。

It depends on what your social media circles are, but I'm gonna make some assumptions here.

对于许多人的身份如今已与支持巴勒斯坦紧密相连的人来说。

And for a lot of the people who, for example, their identity is now wrapped up in supporting Palestine.

他们认为，加沙是世界上最严重的人权灾难。

They think that the way, you know, Gaza is the most, you know, human rights disaster.

这是一场种族灭绝。

It's a genocide.

以色列应对此负责，因此抵抗是正当的，我们不仅应该支持巴勒斯坦，最终还应倾向于为10月7日事件辩护，并站在哈马斯一边。

Israel is to blame and therefore resistance is justified and we should not just being pro Palestine, but ultimately leaning in favor of justifying October 7 and siding with Hamas.

一旦你被这种观念灌输了三年，当伊斯兰共和国被看作犯下暴行时，你就会产生认知失调，心想：哦，这些可是站在我们这边的人，因为他们支持抵抗轴心。

And once you have been indoctrinated in that, you know, for three years, then when the Islamic Republic is seen as, you know, committing atrocities, you have this cognitive dissonance about, oh, well, these are the guys who are on my side because they're supporting the axis of resistance.

如果没有伊斯兰共和国，可能就不存在抵抗轴心。

And without the Islamic Republic, then, you know, there might not be an axis of resistance.

所以我支持伊斯兰共和国。

And so I support the Islamic Republic.

我会这么说：这些抗议是假的。

And that and the way I'll do that is I'll say the protests are fake.

抗议者手中持有武器。

The protesters were armed.

这全是摩萨德干的。

It's all Mossad.

为了能心安理得地不去承认这是一场彻底的人权与人道主义灾难，并保持一致性，我会想尽办法回避它。

Whatever I can do to live with myself for not having to treat this as a human human rights and humanitarian complete disaster and and be consistent.

幸运的是，还有一小部分人，我和他们的立场一致，比如一位名叫约翰·阿齐兹的巴勒斯坦人说过，支持自由的伊朗，是你能采取的最支持巴勒斯坦的立场。

And and then, I mean, fortunately, there's like other there there there's a minority of which I find myself aligned with where where it's like people who I think there's a a Palestinian guy named John Aziz said something like being pro free Iran is the most, like, pro Palestinian you could position you could take.

对我们来说，这显而易见，因为我们希望中东实现和平。

And it's for us, it's as obvious because we want, you know, peace in The Middle East.

对吧？

Right?

我们不希望圣战分子继续发动圣战，所以我们希望伊朗伊斯兰共和国停止资助所有圣战分子和圣战行动，以便实现和平。

We we don't want the jihadists to continue doing the jihad, and so we want the Islamic Republic to stop funding all the jihadists and doing the jihad so that we can have peace.

对我们来说，这意味着好吧。

And for us, this is it means, okay.

所以我们应该想办法消除或克服伊斯兰共和国，以便实现和平。

Well, we should try to figure out how to eliminate or, you know, overcome the Islamic Republic so that we can have peace.

我认为，很多有内疚感或自我毁灭式共情的人，他们憎恨西方。

And that that I think a lot of people who have, you know, either guilt or suicidal empathy have you know, they they hate the West.

对吧？

Right?

在憎恨西方的过程中，他们接受了这些立场。

And in hating the West, they come to adopt these positions.

他们不明白，他们实际上是在支持那些会剥夺他们权利、自由，并摧毁西方体系的人，而正是这个西方体系才赋予了他们发声的权利。

And they don't understand that, like, they are actually supporting the people who would take away their rights and, you know, their liberty and destroy the western system that actually gives them the right to speak up about this stuff in the first place.

除了以上所有因素外，我还想指出其他几个方面。

There's a couple other vectors that I also wanna identify here in addition to all of that.

就像你刚才说的，这一切背后还有一些影响因素。

There's, like, influences to, like, how that came to be, everything that you just said.

一是伊斯兰国家对西方机构有大量的投资。

One is there is a ton of Islamic investment into Western institutions.

不只是来自伊朗，还包括其他伊斯兰国家。

Not just from not from Iran, but just from local Islamic countries.

也许你可以再多谈一点这方面的情况。

Maybe you could touch on that a little bit more.

然后还要谈谈伊朗如何紧邻俄罗斯和中国，在互联网上开展信息战、宣传和水军操作。

And then also talk about, you know, Iran sits right next to Russia and China in information operations, propaganda on the Internet, astroturfing, bot bot armies.

正如一些无银行姐妹可能知道的，我一直非常公开地谈论伊朗，结果我的回复里总出现一些机器人，它们在巴勒斯坦国旗旁边配上爱尔兰国旗，或者巴勒斯坦国旗旁边配上英国国旗，而且全都是一模一样的格式——彼此完全没有共同关注者，我被称作‘锡安主义者’。

And then I have been as bankless sisters might know, I've just been very loud about Iran, And I get these bots in my reply with a Palestine flag next next to an Ireland flag or a Palestine flag next to a UK flag, and then it's all just like the same kind of form factor of, like, zero mutual followers, the same kind of I'm being called, like, a Zionist.

我根本不是犹太人。

I'm not even Jewish.

而且这些人在推特、X平台上，全都使用一模一样的风格，试图扭曲讨论、操纵舆论。

And, like, all of the same, like, all of the same sort of, like, profile of these people on Twitter, on x, trying to just, like, you know, tilt the conversation, tilt the narrative.

当我看到那些出现在我回复里的伊朗人、波斯人，或者中东地区的人时，往往有17个共同关注者，比如来自加州的艺术家，一个我真实认识的人，而我正在亲身体验这种机器人水军操作。

And then when I see, you know, these Iranians, Persians, any anyone in The Middle East, in in my replies, it's like, you know, 17 mutual followers, an artist from from California, somebody very tangible to me, and I'm experiencing this bot astroturfing firsthand.

所以，如果你能谈谈另外两个支柱，比如伊斯兰世界对西方机构的投资，以及伊朗在信息战方面的投入。

So so talk about those other two those other two pillars if you can, like the Islamic investment into Western institutions and just the information operations that Iran has invested in as well.

正如你提到的，反西方和反帝国主义、压迫者与被压迫者的叙事。

As you mentioned, the anti Western and then this anti imperialism and this oppressor oppressed narrative.

在这个压迫者与被压迫者的叙事中，唯一的压迫者只能是西方、美国或以色列。

In this oppressor oppressed narrative, the only oppressor can be the West, be America, can be Israel.

而其他所有人都是被压迫者。

And then everyone else is oppressed.

因此，在这种叙事中，伊斯兰共和国属于抵抗轴心，不可能成为压迫者，我们无论如何都不能停止支持他们，因为他们正在对抗这个邪恶的、帝国主义的实体——美国，同时支持这个反帝国主义的伊斯兰共和国。

So in that narrative, Islamic Republic is part of axis of the resistance, cannot be the oppressor and in any shape or form we cannot stop supporting them because they were standing against this evil entity, this imperialist entity that is America, meanwhile supporting the Islamic Republic that is anti imperialist.

但事实上，如果你去查阅帝国主义实体的定义，它指的是向其他国家输出权力和影响力，试图控制其政治体系、资源、运动等。

But in fact, if you go and read the definition of an imperialist entity is what exports power and influence into other countries, try to control their political systems, their resources, their movements and everything.

它会影响这些国家人民的日常生活。

And it affects daily life of the people in those countries.

而这正是伊斯兰共和国正在做的。

And that's exactly what Islamic Republic does.

伊朗伊斯兰共和国是一个披着共和外衣、进行反抵抗重新包装的帝国主义实体。

Islamic Republic is an imperialist entity that has a Republican cover up and anti resistant rebranding and the resistant rebranding.

它所做的就是这些。

That's all it does.

更让我难以置信的是，居然有人相信这些叙事，尤其是那些自称聪明、博学、受过良好教育的人。

And it's imperialist and it's just mind blowing to me that people buy into those narratives, especially people who claim to be intelligent and well read and educated.

我是在穆斯林家庭长大的。

So I I was raised Muslim.

我在马里兰州波托马克地区的罗克维尔上过一个伊斯兰教育中心。

I went to an Islamic education center in, I don't know, the Potomac area of Maryland, Rockville.

那是一个正统的伊朗式伊斯兰教育机构。

And it was like a proper Islamic Iranian education thing.

对吧？

Right?

但我直到二十年后才明白。

And like, I only learned twenty years later.

我讨厌它。

I I hated it.

对吧？

Right?

我妹妹也讨厌它。

My sister hated it.

你必须戴头巾。

You had to wear a hijab.

这可是华盛顿特区的郊区啊。

And this is like in the suburbs of DC.

对吧？

Right?

我经常和老师争论。

And like, they I would argue with the the teacher.

我会问：为什么非得这样？

I'd be like, why is this?

他就说，是上帝说的。

And he'd like, God said so.

我就说，我不明白。

And I'm like, I don't get it.

你知道的。

You know?

惹人生气，而且你还得学一大堆阿拉伯语。

Piss people off and and, you know, had to learn a whole bunch of Arabic.

他们不明白，我到现在还是不明白这到底是什么意思。

They didn't understand I still don't understand what it means.

但我后来才得知，整整二十年后，才发现我上的那所学校其实和伊朗伊斯兰共和国有关联，我在美国学波斯语的那所学校竟然有这种背景。

But the I only found out later, like twenty years later, that my school actually has ties to the Islamic Republic Of Iran, where I went to learn Persian in America has ties.

这种情况还有很多。

And there are many such cases.

很多资金都通过卡塔尔流转，还有许多伊斯兰研究项目都是这样设立的。

A lot of the money goes through Qatar, and there are all these Islamic studies programs that are set up.

所以，每所大学都有某种伊斯兰研究项目，被看作是在展示自己。

And so, like, in every university, there is some sort of Islamic studies program that is seen as, you know, promoting look at us.

我们非常有文化。

We're we're so cultured.

我们有来自各种信仰的代表，可以研究一切。

We we have, you know, representatives from all sorts of faiths, and we can study everything.

于是他们请来了伊斯兰教教授。

And so they bring Islamic professor.

而这位伊斯兰教教授的工作，本质上是一个支持这些势力所宣扬的相同理念的政治宣传项目。

And then the Islamic professor, it's essentially a political propaganda project supporting all of the same ideas that these guys put out.

然后我们就会奇怪，为什么我们的大学生会复述伊斯兰共和国的言论，以及普遍反西方、亲圣战的论调。

And then we wonder why our college kids are, you know, parroting, you know, Islamic talking like Islamic Republic and also generally anti western pro jihadi talking points.

他们实际上得到了豁免。

They essentially get a pass.

这是共产党人制定的策略。

This is the playbook that was created by the communist.

所以克格勃和俄罗斯基本上完善了这套体系，训练了伊朗伊斯兰共和国使用这种宣传手法，然后放任他们行动。

And so the KGB and Russia, they like essentially perfected the system and trained the Irani the Islamic Republic in this propaganda technique and set them loose.

所以现在你既有马克思主义类型的研究，也有伊斯兰研究。

And so now you have both on the, you know, like the the sort of Marxist type of studies, and then you also have the Islamic studies.

这两者都在对大学生进行本质上反西方的洗脑。

And both are doing essentially anti Western indoctrination for university students.

而且有一位大学教授，我想是普林斯顿大学的，叫何塞·穆萨维翁，你可以查一下他的名字。

And like there is this university professor at I think it's Princeton, Jose Musavion, if you can look his name up.

他曾是德国政府的外交官，在慕尼黑恐袭事件后被驱逐出境，我想是这样，如果我没记错的话。

He used to be diplomat for the government in Germany and he got expelled after Mykonos, I think terror attack in Germany, if I'm not mistaken.

然后他来到美国，最终成了普林斯顿大学的教授。

And then he came, ended up in America and now is a professor at Princeton.

如果你看看他的社交媒体活动，就会觉得，是的，确实如此——你看到的是伊斯兰政权的宣传者，称以色列为希特勒，说犹太人是纳粹，美国很糟糕、很可怕，尽管他本人生活在美國。

And if you look through his social media activities, you think, well yeah, checks out, you're looking at Islamic regime propagandists calls Israel Hitler and Jews are Nazis and America is bad, America is awful, even though he lives in America.

想象一下，他是一位教授，正在教导学生。

And imagine he is a university professor who teaches people.

纽约大学、哥伦比亚大学、耶鲁大学等众多高校都有这样的例子。

And there are many examples of this at NYU, Columbia, Yale, like all of these universities.

而且他们甚至不一定都是穆斯林或宗教人士。

And they are not even like necessarily, some of them are not even like Muslim or religious.

有些人甚至不是伊朗人，也与该地区没有任何关联。

Some of them are even not Iranian or have any ties to the region.

他们就是一些美国人，正在合作并推动这种叙事。

They are like Americans that are collaborating and pushing this narrative.

我想谈谈西方干预这个话题，因为外界对西方是否应该介入伊朗事务存在争议。

I want to talk about the topic of about Western intervention because there's a debate out there about whether the West should intervene at all, get involved at all in Iran.

我认为，人们的第一反应是，美国军队介入中东国家的想法。

And I think, the first reaction that people have is, like, the idea of US of The US military engaging in a Middle Eastern country.

不行。

It's like, no.

不行。

No.