Jito 宣战 Coinbase 和 Binance | Lucas Bruder 谈 JTX 的推出

现在区块还没满。

Blocks are not full right now.

偶尔会有满的时候，但我觉得目前大概只用了五到六成。

There'll be some spikes where they're full, but I think they're probably around 50 to 60% full right now.

不过，还是有很多优先费在支付。

There's still a lot of priority fees being paid, though.

很多交易员、套利者这类人对速度要求很高，愿意为此付费。

A lot of traders and arbitragers and things like that have a need for speed, and they're willing to pay for it.

所以大部分SOL销毁都来自优先费，是这样吗？

Does it so the bulk of SOL burn comes from the priority fees, the contest contestant?

不是。

No.

优先费的多少主要取决于每天处理的交易总量。

The bulk the bulk of priority fees is basically just a function of how many transactions are being processed a day.

也就是说，纯粹是交易量大？

So there's just straight volume?

就是交易量？

Straight volume?

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yes.

纯粹是交易量。

Straight transaction volume.

可能有很多这样的交易。

Those could be like a lot of yeah.

本质上就是看交易数量。

It's just based on the transaction count, essentially.

没错。

Mhmm.

没错。

Mhmm.

所以，没错。

And so, yeah.

如果我们能把通胀率降下来，然后根据区块大小来收费，这对 SOL 的代币经济会非常有帮助，尤其是当越来越多新资产上线、人们开始交易的时候。

If we can get the rate of inflation down and then charge based on the essentially on the block size, then that would be super helpful for SOL tokenomics, especially as we start to see basically every new asset that comes on chain that people wanna trade.

已经为它搭建了一个专业做市商系统。

There's a Prop AMM spun up for it.

而且，大概有十到二十个这样的专业做市商系统。

And, you know, there's, like, probably 10 or 20 Prop AMMs.

每个专业做市商系统都需要往链上发送一个预言机。

So, like, you take every Prop AMM, they need to send an oracle on chain.

每上线一个新的资产，几乎都会配套一个专业做市商系统。

There's you know, every new equity that comes on chain is gonna have a Prop AMM.

所以，随着越来越多资产上链，产生的交易量将会非常惊人。

And so the amount of transactions that are gonna be generated as more and more assets come onchain is gonna be insane.

你说 Solana 的执行效率在过去十八个月里大幅提升，是因为这些专业做市商系统吗？

When you say execution on Solana has gotten drastically better over the last, like, eighteen months, is that because of the Prop AMMs?

这部分进步很大程度上要归功于 Prop AMMs 吗？

Like, much of that is due to Prop AMMs?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得主要有两个方面。

I would say there's two main things.

第一，是协议底层的优化。

One, I would say is just core protocol work.

比如 FireDancer 和我们以及其他核心客户端团队在做的工作，目的是让网络更快。

So the work that on and FireDancer and us and other core client teams are doing to make the network faster.

我不确定你记不记得，上次我们聊的时候，差不多是 Jito 空投前后吧。

I don't know if you use I think last time we chatted, it was, like, right around the Jito airdrop, maybe shortly after.

那时候用这条链，简直是一团糟。

If you use the chain back then, it was just, like, a nightmare to use.

交易根本确认不了。

Like, transactions wouldn't land.

当时大家只能靠Jito来打包交易，因为正常的交易通道问题太多，根本用不了。

Basically, everyone was landing transactions through Jito because, like, it the normal pipeline was just super it was just buggy and, like, not good.

所以核心协议层其实做了大量出色的工作。

And so there's been a ton of really good work at the core protocol layer.

区块容量一直在提升，而且变得越来越大的。

Blocks are going up and they're, like, getting bigger and bigger.

我们预计，接下来一个月左右，核心客户端团队就能把区块大小几乎翻倍。

The core client teams that we should get, we should almost double block size within the next, like, month, I would say.

这也会带来很大的改善。

And so that's gonna help a lot too.

所以，第一点就是这些方面的持续改进。

So, yeah, one is all the the work going on there.

而另一项推动执行效率提升的关键，无疑是Prop AMMs。

And then I would say the other thing that led to execution improvements would definitely be the Prop AMMs.

它们在表达做市商意图方面，效率真的非常高。

And so, yeah, those are just really efficient at expressing the, like, what the market maker wants to do.

它们把做市商的逻辑直接放在链上了。

And they're kind of putting the market maker logic on chain.

因为机制的设计，更新这个资产的价格成本低得惊人。

It's really, really cheap to update the pricing for that asset just because of the way it works.

举个例子，如果你在用订单簿，想调整挂单位置，就得一个个撤单。

And, yeah, I guess, like, the to explain, like, on five is, like, if you're if you're running an order book and you wanna shift your orders around, you have to go to every tick and, like, cancel it.

你得先把所有订单全撤掉，再把中间价挪一挪，然后重新挂单。

So you have to cancel all these orders and then, like, move your mid over and, like, replace all the orders.

而这些Prop AMMs不一样，它们有个价格曲线，只需要移动曲线上那个点就行。

Where these Prop AMMs, they kind of just they have this curve and then they can basically just shift this point around.

所以调整中间价格，成本低到几乎可以忽略。

And so shifting that that midpoint price, it's super cheap.

我记得最便宜的Prop AMM价格更新，成本还不到100个单位，但要在订单簿上交易，一次就得花4万左右。

It's like, I think the cheapest Prop AMM Oracle update is like sub a 100 cost units, where if you wanna make a trade on an order book, it's like 40,000.

没错。

So Right.

就差这么多。

Just that massive.

从工程效率的角度来看，把做市逻辑搬到链上，真是个巨大的创新。

Like a engineering efficiency innovation with in terms of just, like, putting market maker logic on chain.

这显然是更好的做法。

It's just, a way better way to do it.

对。

Yeah.

看到这些进展也真的很棒。

It's been really cool to see too.

比如最早的那个叫 Laffinity，但最近已经停了。

Like so, yeah, I think there's, like, the super OG one called Laffinity.

接下来主要的就是 Ellipsis 团队做的 SOL PHY，就是做永续合约的那个团队。

They shut down recently, but the next main one was SOL PHY from the Ellipsis team, the team that's billing perps.

他们是第一个打造出这种新一代链上做市机制的团队。

So they were, like, the first team that created the this, like, next generation of Prop AMMs.

现在我们有了Humidify和BisonFi，后者由Jump Trading或Jump Crypto运营，还有Scorch、Tessera这些Prop AMM项目。

And, you know, now we have, like, Humidify and BisonFi who's run by Jump Trading or Jump Crypto and, you know, Scorch and Tessera and all these Prop AMMs.

接着你就会看到Prop AMM开始在Base和其他L2链上冒出来。

And then you start seeing Prop AMMs pop up on base and other l twos.

现在我们看到Prop AMM进入了以太坊，它们在以太坊上做的也是类似的事，比如BAM的Maker Priority插件，让像Titan这样的区块构建者能接收Prop AMM的更新，从而在所有这些链上实现比任何中心化交易所都更窄的价差。

And now we're seeing Prop AMMs go on to Ethereum, and they're doing on Ethereum, they're doing similar stuff like BAM's Maker Priority plug in where they have top of that block builders like Titan and others can, like, receive Prop AMM updates and get all these super tight spreads that are, like, tighter than the tightest centralized exchange onto all these chains.

这确实很令人兴奋，因为这种创新最初诞生于Solana，现在又扩展到了L2和以太坊。

And so that's been something really cool to see that, like, that's born on Solana, and then now we're seeing it on l twos and Ethereum.

我觉得Robinhood Chain上也有团队在做类似的事情。

And I think there's some people doing it on Robinhood Chain as well.

看到这种创新从Solana诞生，再被带到其他链上，真的特别棒。

And that's just been really cool to see that, like, innovation being born on Solana and, like, taking that to other chains.

希望很快，其他所有链都能提供比最顶尖的中心化交易所还要窄的价差。

And I think, you know, hopefully all these other chains can offer spreads that are tighter than the tightest centralized exchange pretty soon.

Prop AMM里的AMM到底指的是什么？

What's the AMM word doing in a Prop AMM?

这么说准确吗？

Is that is that accurate?

你能给我解释一下吗？

Can you explain that to me?

差不多够用了，能把意思说清楚就行。

Let's say it's it's accurate enough to get the point across.

明白了。

Okay.

AMM 就是 Uniswap 推出来的那种机制，比如 x 乘以 y 等于 k 这类公式。

So, like, an AMM is, like, what Uniswap invented, you know, x times y equals k or whatever whatever that exchange is.

我好一阵子没想这公式了。

It's been a while since I've thought about that that equation.

而 Prop AMM 的想法是，像 Uniswap v3 这样的系统，其实 v2 时期就已经有苗头了——流动性会刚好在需要的时候补上来。Uniswap v3 的特点是流动性集中，所以 x 乘以 y 等于 k 这个关系，其实是个固定斜率。

And then the idea of a Prop AMM is like, you know, it with Uniswap v three, something that we saw maybe this was even happening in Uniswap v two, was that we would you would see just in time liquidity come in on the Uniswap v three curve, And the Uniswap v three curve had concentrated liquidity so you could well, x times y equals k was a was a, you know, a constant slope.

这个斜率是不变的。

The slope didn't change.

Uniswap V3 的创新在于，你可以把流动性只加在曲线的某个特定区间里。

When you what Uniswap v three brought to the table is you could add liquidity just in a particular band on that slope.

所以曲线的某一段会聚集大量流动性，正好围绕着资产的中间市场价格。

And so parts of that slope would have very high liquidity, and it would be around the mid market price of an asset.

而曲线两端则几乎没有流动性，毕竟谁会愿意为比如 10 美元的 ETH 提供流动性呢？

And then, like, the tails of the slope would have no liquidity because why would you ever provide liquidity for, like, $10 ETH?

根本没必要这么做，或者为一百万美元的 ETH 提供流动性。

Like, it's just don't do that or or a million dollar ETH.

也别这么干。

Also, don't do that.

希望有一天吧，但现在还不行。

You know, hopefully one day, but no.

我们看到，在 MEV 领域，有人会在内存池里发现有人要下单买一百万美元的 ETH 时，立刻冲进来提供流动性。

And so, like, what we saw is we saw and like kinda in the MEV world, we would see people come in and provide very high liquidity when they saw in the mempool somebody coming and slapping a $1,000,000 ETH USD buy.

他们就是想在集中流动性里，刚好赶在那一刻注入资金，把大部分手续费都赚走。

And so they would they would provide liquidity to capture the majority of those fees just in time inside of the concentrated liquidity.

听起来这就是 Prop AMM 正在做的事情。

It sounds like that's what Prop AMMs are doing.

只不过它不是去监控内存池，而是把这套逻辑直接放在链上执行。

But rather than viewing the mempool, the logic for that is onchain.

这算是它们的核心创新点吗？

Is that the kind of the core innovation?

算是吧。

Kind of.

对。

Yeah.

每个提案式的自动做市商都有自己的曲线，而且这些曲线会随时间调整。

They every Prop AMM has its own curve, and they will change the curves over time.

所以真的

So there's a really

叫它自动做市商有点勉强，因为它本质上就是一条曲线。

call cool it an AMM because it's a curve.

对。

Yeah.

链上还有一套逻辑，每个Prop AMM都不一样，它们可以调整点差，改变曲线的走势。

And there's there's some logic on chain where every Prop AMM's different, but they can, like, widen their spreads and change the way the curve works.

其实有个特别棒的网站，大家可以去看看。

So if you go there's a really cool website people can view.

打开sandsandwich.me，在左边有个Prop AMM的板块。

If you go to sandsandwich.me, if you go on the left side, there's a Prop AMM sec section.

你可以看到所有做市商的曲线和链上的点差情况。

And so you can see the curves from all these different market makers and the spreads on chain.

比如你点进BisonFi，会发现他们现在的点差非常窄，大概只有半个基点，曲线也特别陡。

And so, yeah, you can click through some of these, like, if you, like, go to BisonFi, you can look to see their spreads are pretty tight right now, like, half a bip, and they have a really steep curve.

但要是看其他几个，曲线就宽一些，没那么陡了。

And then if you go to some of the other ones, you know, their curves are a little wider and maybe not as steep.

所以，这是所有曲线在SOL和USDC交易对上的统一视图，然后你

So, yeah, this is the this is a unified SOL USDC view of all the curves, and then you

你可以查看所有Prop AMM在SOL-USDC市场上的汇总曲线。

can click in aggregate curves of all the Prop AMMs of the SOL USDC market.

没错。

Correct.

是的。

Yeah.

如果我点击其中一条曲线，这就是其中一条，把所有曲线加在一起，就能看到整体的净曲线。

And so if I click on one of these, this is like one of the one of the curves, and when you add them all together, they come you you see the the net curve.

这其实就是个订单簿。

And this is just an order book.

有点像订单簿。

It's kind of an order book.

对。

Yeah.

这就像

It's like a

看起来确实像一个订单簿。

It looks like it looks like an order book.

是的。

Yeah.

没错，就是这样。

It look yeah.

这是一个隐含的订单簿。

It's a it's a implied order book.

这是一个隐含的订单簿。

It's an implied order book.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你看，现在在Solana上，100个SOL的深度下，价差还能低于一个基点。

So, yeah, you can see here that for a 100 SOL depth on Solana right now, you can get less than a BIP spread.

这简直太棒了。

That's just like Cool.

太惊人了。

Insane.

我觉得这趋势不会只停留在SOL上。

And so I don't think that's gonna stop with SOL.

我们在比特币、Zcash上也看到了，还有Hype，确实如此。

We're seeing it on Bitcoin, Zcash, hype Mhmm.

SpaceX也会是这样。

SpaceX.

今天上市的那家韩国内存股，估计也会出现这种情况。

We'll probably see it on that South Korean memory stock that gets listed today.

所以，我觉得这个趋势不会放缓。

And so, basically, like, I think that this is not a trend that's gonna slow down.

当初我们开始做JTX的时候，就觉得，好吧。

And, like, when we started looking at building JTX, we're like, okay.

趋势明显在向好的方向发展，价格也越来越有吸引力。

Things are definitely trending in the right direction and, like, prices are getting good.

Solana 上即将有更多资产上线。

There's more asset issuance coming on the Solana.

这事儿肯定会火，而且已经比中心化交易所更受欢迎了。

And so it's like, this is gonna be really big and it's already beating it's already being centralized exchanges.

我觉得它迟早会超越，说不定现在已经超过了。

I think it's gonna start beating if it hasn't already.

一些像纽约证券交易所和纳斯达克那样的传统市场，价格都开始被它赶超了。

Some of these more, like, New York Stock Exchange and Nasdaq's on prices.

而且你可以全天候运行，完全无需许可。

And you run it twenty four seven totally permissionless.

没错，各种事情都在发生。

So, yeah, things are things are happening.

我和迈克·阿博利托早就一直在讨论这个问题：除非链上能自然实现价格发现，否则加密货币、去中心化金融、去中心化交易所和区块链永远不可能超越中心化交易所。

Me and, Mike Abolito have been pounding this rum for a while where crypto, you know, DeFi, DEXs, blockchains are never going to surpass centralized exchanges unless we can get price discovery to happen natively onchain.

那到底是谁来决定价格的？预言机又起什么作用？

Like, who determines the price of something like what the Oracle is?

现在是币安在主导。

Right now, it's Binance.

币安已经主导很久了。

It's been Binance for a while.

第二名是Coinbase，但我们得让价格发现真正发生在以太坊、Solana，或者别的区块链上。

You know, second place is Coinbase, but we need it to happen on Ethereum or Solana or some have it make it happen on the blockchain.

如果我们没有链上原生的价格发现机制，如果我们不是决定价格的地方，那你其实就是被做价格发现的人牵着鼻子走——抱歉，我这么说有点粗俗。

And if we don't have native price discovery, if we are not the place where price is determined, then you're kinda just, excuse my language, cucked by whoever is doing price discovery.

所以，价格发现能原生在链上发生，这简直是金矿。

And so having price discovery happening natively on chain is such a golden goose.

这简直就是终极目标。

It's such a trophy.

而且

And

对。

Yeah.

我上次跟他聊这个话题，已经是好几年前的事了，但我们在链上实现原生价格发现这件事上，似乎一直没什么进展。

It's like the last time I talked to him about this was, like, a number of years ago, but we just seem to have stalled out in getting native price discovery on chain.

这就是为什么模因币总是出现在以太坊上。

This is why, like, meme coins are always on Ethereum.

它们在Uniswap上都是用ETH计价的，因为模因币本来就是主要在以太坊，还有Solana上推出的。

They're always denominated in ETH on Uniswap is because that's just like, you know, meme coins launched on on Ethereum and also on Solana.

而在Solana上，模因币都是和SOL配对交易的。

And in in Solana, it's it's you know, the meme coin is paired with SOL.

这样一来，模因币的价格发现就在链上完成了，这也正是它有点赛博朋克精神的原因。

And that's you know, the meme coin price discovery happens on chain, and that's why it's actually kinda like cypherpunk.

但一旦交易量主要集中在Binance或者Solana这样的平台，我们就会慢慢失去链上的主导权。

But then as soon as, like, with volume dominates on, like, Binance or Solana, then we kinda, like, lose that that that chain dominance.

所以我现在说Prop AMMs，就是想创造一个新渠道，让像USDC-SOL、USDC-Bitcoin这样的大额交易对也能在链上完成价格发现。

So what I'm saying here with Prop AMMs is, like, we have a new venue for getting price discovery on bigger pairs, USCC SOL, USCC Bitcoin, to happen onchain.

一直以来，中心化交易所的订单簿和区块链上的AMM之间，就一直在打一场持久的拉锯战。

And, like and so, like, there's been this this forever arms race between order books on centralized exchanges and, you know, AMMs on blockchains.

AMM 一直受到很大限制，但现在有了 Prop AMM，它开始越来越像订单簿了。

And AMMs have been really constrained, but now we have Prop AMMs, is starting to look like an order book.

这让我重新燃起了一丝希望，觉得我们终于能让全球最重要资产的价格发现发生在链上。

And so this is actually kinda giving me some renewed hope that we can get price discovery for the world's biggest assets to happen on chain.

你觉得这事能成吗？

You think we can get that done?

绝对没问题。

Oh, a thousand percent.

我觉得我们很快就能看到。

I think we'll be seeing that.

其实现在已经开始有价格发现的迹象了。

I mean, they're kind of already is starting to be price discovery.

Hyper Liquid 上明显已经有价格发现的活动了。

There's definitely price discovery on hyper liquid.

我觉得 Solana 也会很快跟进，尤其是在非交易高峰时段。

I think Solana will be there very shortly just in, like, the off venue hours.

你知道，股票不是24小时交易的，所以那里面还是会有价格发现的。

So, you know, stocks don't trade twenty four seven, so there'd be some price discovery there.

我觉得Solana其实并不适合运行订单簿。

And, yeah, I think this is I think that Solana is not the right environment to run order books.

未来应该是专业做市商机制主导，不仅在Solana上，几乎每条链都会这样，除非你完全专注于订单簿模式，像那种专门的应用链。

I think it's gonna be Prop AMMs for the future, not only on Solana, but basically, essentially every chain unless you're, like, 100% dedicated to order books and more like an app chain.

我觉得这对传统自动做市商来说是个巨大的利空，因为它们根本无法实现真正的价格发现，只能依赖套利者来拉平价格。

And, yeah, I think this is super bearish on just like traditional AMMs because those those can never do price discovery because they rely on people arbitraging the price to bring it in line.

但你看专业做市商机制，是有人主动在建立和调整市场报价，根本不需要靠套利来推动价格。

Where if you look at Prop AMMs, there's actually like people that are making these markets and they're moving them around without getting arbitrage.

比如你在Uniswap上做个SpaceX和USDC的交易对，那根本不可能持续发现真实价格。

Where, like, the if you make, like, a SpaceX USDC pair on Uniswap, that's not going to be constantly discovering the correct price.

只会有人不断去套利这个价差。

It's just gonna be people other people that are gonna arbitrage against it.

所以我觉得，Solana上的专业做市商机制，将会极大推动价格发现的实现。

And so this I think Prop AMMs on Solana are just gonna be massive for making price discovery happen on there.

AMM的一个好处是，你能看到所有的流动性。

One thing that was that is nice about AMMs, like vanilla AMMs, is that you can see all the liquidity.

比如你能清楚看到ETH-USDC池子里有多少USDC，信息一目了然。

Like, you can see how much USCC is in the eth USDC paired and Ethan like you just have that information.

但Prop AMM就不一样了，很多逻辑都放在链下，由Prop AMM自己处理。

With Prop AMMs, we don't have that because a lot of logic is held off chain by the Prop AMM.

是这样吗？

Is that true?

其实我们看的只是价格曲线。

Well, I mean, were just looking at the curves.

你还是能看得到曲线的。

It's like you can see the curves.

对。

Right.

但流动性会不会在几个区块内就突然消失了？

But could the liquidity just like disappear inside of a couple blocks?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这种事在普通AMM上也可能发生。

I mean, that can happen on like a normal AMM too.

如果有人是

If someone is the

主要的做市商。

main True.

明白了。

Okay.

我觉得Prop AMM通常是由单一做市商在运作，而像以太坊上的AMM，一般会有多个流动性提供者。

I guess that the Prop AMMs are, you know, it's just one market maker running it where, you know, hopefully in the the AMMs on, like, Ethereum, there's multiple liquidity providers.

而且在Solana上，所有人都在用聚合器。

And the thing is on Solana, everyone is using an aggregator.

每个人都在用Jupiter、DFlow、Titan，或者其他的聚合器。

So everyone's using Jupiter or D Flow or Titan or any of these other aggregators.

所以它们会持续监控所有这些专业AMM的曲线，寻找报价最优的交易渠道。

And so they are constantly looking at the curves of all these Prop AMMs and trying to route to the best venue for prices.

如果某个做市商宕机了，不管是程序出bug还是需要升级，这个AMM就会被自动从路由中剔除，系统会直接转向其他做市商。

And so if a market maker goes down, they need to you know, it's a bug or they need to upgrade their program or whatever, like that, AMM will just get pulled from the route and, like, they'll route to other market makers.

因此，聚合层其实非常稳健，而这正是大多数人现在采用的方式。

And so you have a lot of there's a lot of, like, robustness at the aggregation there, which is what most people are doing.

没人会只去buysonfi.com这种单一平台做交易。

People aren't going to, like, buysonfi.com and only swapping against that.

他们希望把所有交易渠道都连在一起。

They they wanna get all the venues hooked together.

所以这里头的稳健性很强，就算某个做市商突然下线，系统也能扛得住。

So there's a lot of, like, robustness going on there, and it can handle, like, a market maker going down.

然后你就会看到非常激烈的竞争，大家都想抢交易量，报价自然就更紧了，而这些聚合器则在不断挑选最优的路径。

And then you, yeah, you just get really good competition and, like, people wanna get more flow so they're quoting tighter and these aggregators are, like, choosing which one to go to.

这里面其实有很多特别有意思的东西，我有点忍不住想多聊几句，但这就是我最感兴趣的部分，也正好和我们做JTX时的思路完全吻合——真正理解这些细节背后的逻辑。

So there's a lot of, like, really cool stuff and, like, kinda nerd out here a little bit, but, like, this is what I love, and I feel like we know a lot about this and kinda just ties back into, like, what we're doing with JTX and, like, really understanding a lot of the nuance here.

大家好，我是Bankless的听众们。

Hey, Bankless Nation.

我是大卫。

It's David.

如果你正在听这段音频，说明你正在收听Bankless的免费播客频道。

If you're hearing this, that's because you are listening to the free Bankless podcast feed.

你知道吗？我们还有一个付费的Bankless RSS订阅源。

Did you know that there is a premium bankless RSS feed?

付费频道包含我为个人研究专门录制的额外访谈，我会提出一些更深入的问题，想搞清楚加密行业里的各种细节——这些问题能让我在Bankless Ventures的投资决策中，以及在自己的个人投资组合里，变得更明智。

The premium feed has extra interviews that I do for my own personal research and just deeper questions that I want answered about the crypto industry, questions that I want to answer so I can be more informed as an investor both at Bankless Ventures and also just in my own personal portfolio too.

而且，付费频道没有广告。如果你选择订阅付费版而不是免费版，每年能省下大约二十个小时的时间，因为你直接支持了Bankless。

Also, are no ads, which means if you listen to the premium feed instead of the free feed, you'll get about twenty hours of your life back every year because you choose to support Banklist directly.

所以，如果你想要更多独家内容、避开广告，或者只是欣赏我们做的工作，希望我们能持续下去，那我们非常感谢你开通Bankless会员。

So if you're interested in getting extra content all while skipping the ads or you just appreciate what we do here and want us to keep doing it, we'd appreciate it if you signed up for Bankless Premium.

节目简介里有链接，点击就能开始订阅。

And there is a link in the show notes to get started.

为一个美好的2026年干杯。

Cheers to a good 2026.

没错。

Yeah.

确实。

Yeah.

当然。

Yeah.

我的意思是，链上资本市场正变得越来越丰富。

I mean, what I'm saying is just like a growing richness of onchain capital markets.

这就是链上资本市场该有的样子。

Like, this is what onchain capital markets would look like.

关于这个话题，我还想多了解一些，好让自己更明白。

There's a little bit more on this subject so I can understand it more.

现在有个热门话题，就是Robinhood链上的Cash Cat代币，最近因为Robin全面转向beams，价格就猛涨了。

Like, one of the conversations that's happening right now is the cash cat token on Robinhood Chain that recently just, like, pumped because Robin has all about beams now.

人们现在在对比Cash Cat和Solana上Ansem代币的流动性。

And people are, like, looking at the liquidity of Cash Cat versus the liquidity of of the Ansem token on Solana.

这简直就像一个对照实验，或者A/B测试：看看Cash Cat的流动性，再看看Ansem代币的流动性。

And we kinda have just, like, a a control study or, an AB test of, like, look at the liquidity of Cash Cat and look at the liquidity of Ansem, the Ansem coin.

大家都在指出Ansem代币，说你看，Cash Cat在Robinhood链上的流动性是Ansem在Solana上流动性的好三倍。

And people are are, like, pointing at the Ansem coin and saying, like, look at Cash Cat has three times the low the liquidity on Robinhood Chain than Ansem has in the Ansem coin on Solana.

这样的比较公平吗？还是说Prop AMMs里其实也有没被算进去的流动性？

Is that a fair comparison, or are the Prop AMMs, you know, also there's also liquidity inside of the Prop AMMs that aren't being measured there.

那Prop AMMs的讨论该怎么融入这个分析里？

Was how how does the Prop AMM conversation fit there?

我不确定Prop AMMs现在有没有在报价Ansem代币。

I don't know if the Prop AMMs are quoting Ansem right now.

不过，这种对比确实是可以做的。

I mean, it's definitely a comparison you can make.

我只是不太清楚这种信息能用来做什么，但所有流动性仪表盘——比如Bird Eye、Helios、JTX这些，我们后端用的就是Bird Eye。

I'm not really sure what you can, like, do with that information, but all the liquidity dashboards like Bird Eye and Helios and those guys and JTX, We use Bird Eye on the back end.

他们应该通过 Prop AMMs 来追踪流动性。

They they should track the liquidity via on the the Prop AMMs.

所以，如果有流动性在 Prop AMMs 上，就会显示出来。

And so, yeah, if there's liquidity on Prop AMMs, it'll show up.

不过，我觉得 Robinhood 上的这个情况真的很有趣。

But, yeah, I think the the Robinhood stuff's really interesting.

前几天我还发过一条推文谈到这个。

It's just like I had a tweet the other day about it.

你可能会为现实场景开发产品，但最终人们交易什么，你说了不算。

It's like, you might make things for, like, real world use cases, but you don't really get to decide what people trade.

真正决定一切的是

What happens on

你的链上发生了什么。

your chain.

对。

Yeah.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

有一部分人就是想搞链上生成，这也没问题。

There's people who just wanna there's a subset of people that just wanna de gen, and that's fine.

对于Solana来说，这反而是好事，因为当时极大地考验了网络，也正因如此，它现在才能领先这么多，轻松应对SpaceX的IPO，还有今天晚些时候要发生的事。

And, like, for Solana, that that was the best thing because it really stressed the network, and it's why it's so far ahead and able to handle, like, the SpaceX IPO and what's gonna happen later today.

明白

Mhmm.

没错

Mhmm.

如果很多资产都跑到Robinhood链上，大家想在上面交易，但JTX只接入Solana，那这些资产就无法在JTX上用了。

What if a lot of assets happen land on Robinhood Chain that people wanna trade, then they're not going to be available in JTX because JTX just hooks into Solana.

你们会考虑接入Solana以外的其他区块链吗？

Would you integrate something like any any other chain other than Solana?

是的。

Yeah.

我们对此持开放态度。

We're open to it.

我觉得这不是最优先的，但 definitely 是开放的。

I would say it's not the highest priority, but definitely open to it.

Robinhood 的用户覆盖面确实惊人，对它们来说，这能很好地帮助推动这条链的发展。

I think the Robinhood obviously is insane, incredible distribution, and it's gonna be really good for them helping bootstrap that chain.

但 Solana 的用户基础也很强，所以我很期待接下来会发生什么。

But there's also Solana has really good distribution too, so I think it'll be interesting to see what happens.

我想你知道我支持谁，不过我确实在密切关注这个情况。

I think I you know who I'm rooting for, but, yeah, I don't I'm definitely monitoring the situation.

对。

Mhmm.

我记得以前听过 Zero X Matcha 的 Will Warren 在东丹佛的演讲，他当时对 Solana 上的 Prop AMMs 提出了批评。

When I remember listening to Will Warren from, Zero X Matcha, listening to his talk at East Denver, and it was kind of an indictment of Prop AMMs on Solana.

有些做市商行为还不错，但他特别点名批评了几个Prop AMM，它们会故意挂出诱饵订单。

Like, some of them have good behavior, but he was specifically calling out the bad behavior of a few Prop AMMs that would just, like, leave in bait transactions.

它们先用诱饵订单操纵价格，然后等有人真的想把代币卖进这些订单时，它们就立刻撤单，纯粹是为了最大化套利，这种做法太恶劣了。

And so they would set the price with a bait transaction, but then they would go in the bait transaction and somebody would try and, like, you know, sell a token into that bait transaction, and they it was it was just toxic behavior to just, you know, max extract.

这其实就是适者生存，达尔文主义在这里体现得再明显不过了。

And it's just, you know, it's Darwinism, survival of the fittest definitely fits into that camp.

几个恶劣的Prop AMM一搞，就拖累了整个生态。

And then, like, a few toxic prop AMMs would kind of spoil it for the rest of them.

结果其他正常的做市商也被牵连，市场环境变得对散户极其不友好。

So the rest of them were kinda dragged down into the into the market and kinda just really made execution toxic for for retail.

这种情况现在怎么样了？

What's going on with that?

JTX有没有采取什么措施来保护用户，避免他们被这些恶劣的Prop AMM坑害？

And does JTX protect users in any particular way from toxic Prop AMM quoting?

是的，几个月前Solana上确实发生过这类操作。

So, yeah, I think some of those games were going on on Solana several months ago.

当时发生的事，其实有很多公开数据都能看得到。

There was, I think, lot of there's a lot of public data on what was going on.

你可以清楚地看到一些 Prop AMMs 在玩这些把戏。

So you could see some Prop AMMs playing these games.

我觉得不仅在 Solana 上，很多地方都出现了公开指责的情况，我也看到一些相关的讨论，确实存在这种舆论压力。

I think a lot of, like, social shaming happened not only on Solana, but I've seen bits and pieces of that talk and, you know, there's some social social shaming going on there too.

我觉得有几种办法可以缓解这个问题，Solana 上的人，还有 Zero X 团队，很可能也在用这些方法。

I think there's there's a few things that you can do to mitigate this and that people on Solana and likely Zero X team are doing too.

第一，你可以长期观察这些 Prop AMMs 的行为。

So one is you can just watch what these Prop AMMs are doing over time.

如果发现他们在搞小动作，而你又掌控着像 Jupiter 或 DFlow 这样的入口渠道——也就是用户流入的第一站——你完全可以直接叫停。

And if they are starting to play games, if you own the distribution like Jupiter or D Flow and these this is like the top of funnel where people are coming in, you can just be like, stop it.

我可以切断你的连接，或者减少往你那里分配交易流量。

I'm gonna, like, disconnect you and or I'm gonna, like, route less flow to you.

我相信这类措施已经在用了，这一点不难理解。

And I'm sure there's some of that going on, you know.

我觉得可能确实也有这种情况在发生。

I don't there's probably some of that going on.

另一件最近越来越常见的事，我觉得现在每个聚合器都在做，就是某种链上路由机制。

The other thing that's really cool that we've started to see more recently, and I think every aggregator does this now, is some forms of, like, onchain routing.

这对像 Solana 这样出块速度快的高性能网络来说特别重要。

So this matters a lot more for high performance networks with low slot times like Solana.

比如你想买 SOL 换 USDC，聚合器会查看链上的实时状态，然后说：好。

But if you wanna buy SOL USDC, the aggregator will look at the chain state and they'll be like, okay.

我现在就去这两个 Prop AMM 和这个 AMM，因为当前它们的报价最划算。

Like, I'm going to go to these two Prop AMMs and this AMM because that's the best price right now.

然后，它们会为你生成一个报价。

And then, you know, they'll build the quote for you.

你发送交易，它很快就上链了。

You send your transaction, it lands.

整个过程可能就一两秒的时间。

That can be like a second or two.

在Solana上，这一两秒内可能发生很多事。

On Solana, a lot can happen in that second or two.

比如专业AMM的点差会扩大，或者AMM上的流动性突然被撤走，类似的情况都有可能。

Like the Prop AMMs can widen out or like maybe liquidity on the AMM gets pulled or something like that.

所以我们看到越来越多的AMM或聚合器把它们的实际路由逻辑直接部署到Solana上。

And so we're seeing more AMMs or more of these aggregators put their actual routing logic onto Solana.

它们会说，好的。

And so they'll be like, okay.

这些AMM之前的表现证明它们能给出很紧的报价。

This these AMMs have shown that they can quote tight.

所以这里有一些信息，程序可以直接在链上使用。

And so here's, like, some some information that the program can use on chain.

比如，该关注哪些AMM，我会负责路由交易，安排资金流动，以及从链上哪些池子里提取多少资金。

Like, here's the AMMs to look at, and I will route the transaction and, like, build the flow and, like, how much gets pulled from what decks on chain.

这样我就能看到实时价格，而不是依赖一个已经过时的快照。

So I can actually look at the live price as opposed to, you know, having this like snapshot that's stale.

这确实帮了大忙。

So that's definitely helped a lot.

这两点都特别有用，而且我猜聚合平台肯定也会做些数据分析，看看谁的报价最划算。

Those two things have helped a lot and then like, you know, I'm sure aggregators do like some statistics and all the stuff on, like, who's quoting the best.

所以他们会倾向于把交易流向那些表现更好的平台。

So they'll they'll kinda bias flow there.

不过我觉得这个问题现在已经有了解决方案。

But I think that's a solved problem at this point.

我们用的是 G Flow。

And we use G Flow.

他们已经在链上做了路由处理。

They have some onchain routing.

所以这方面我们基本不用操心。

So, you know, don't really have to worry about that.

听起来不错。

Good to hear.

听到这个真不错。

Good to hear.

咱们聊聊 JTX 的上线计划吧。

Let's talk about the rollout of JTX.

你们将在14号或15号开放等待名单，目前名单已经挺长的了。

So you guys are opening up the waitlist, a pretty big waitlist on the fourteenth fourteenth or fifteenth.

我们录制的时候是前一周，但听众听到的时候已经是当周了。

We're recording this the week before, but listeners are hearing it the week of.

那普通人怎么才能获得 JTX 的访问权限？

How does somebody get access to JTX?

接下来几个月的短期计划是什么？

And then what's the plan the short term plan for, like, the next few months?

我们会在14号正式上线。

So we will be rolling out on the fourteenth.

我们会根据你推荐的人数来排序。

There's we're going by the number of referrals that you have.

所以如果你的推荐人数排在前10%左右，就能比推荐少的人更早获得权限。

So if you're in the top, like, 10% or something, you'll get access earlier than if you have less referrals.

接下来这一周左右，我们会逐步开放这个功能。

So we're gonna roll that out gradually over time over the next week or so.

到时候看到效果一定会很精彩。

And, yeah, it's gonna be really cool to see.

这目前只是一个最基础的版本，我们后面还有很多计划要推进。

This is like a total MVP and so there's definitely a lot more that we have planned.

这肯定不是最终的产品。

This is not the final product.

其实我们私下还在做很多关于数据方面的优化。

I would say there's a lot of stuff that we're doing behind the scenes on like more data.

这些功能是别人没有的，只有我们会提供。

So that will be no one else we'll have a feature and no one else has.

我觉得很多交易员会对数据功能特别感兴趣，之后我们会再扩展到股票、永续合约和预测市场。

I think a lot of traders will really like on the data side and then roll into equities, perps, and prediction markets after.

持续迭代，发现bug，了解用户真正需要什么，然后尽快把这些功能上线。

And just keep iterating, you know, discovering bugs, what do people want, and try to ship those as fast as possible.

那从长远来看，你们有什么规划呢？

And what what's what did you have for over the, like, the longest term horizons?

我知道你们现在专注眼前，但我也说不好。

I know you guys are just focusing on the here and now, but, like, I don't know.

你希望到年底，甚至更远的未来，JTX会变成什么样子？

What do you want JTX to look like by the end of the year and into the future?

是的。

Yeah.

我相信，未来你可以在JTX上交易世界上任何一种资产。

I would say that you will be able to trade any asset in the world on JTX.

如果有人在Solana上发行了新资产呢？

If somebody comes and issues it on Solana?

我们也许不会离开Solana，但可能会接入其他区块链，把它们也加进来。

Maybe we'll go off Solana, but I think that maybe not go off Solana, but, you know, add add these other chains.

但如果你一直在关注推特，就能明显看出股市的发展趋势。

But there's a if you've been paying any attention on Twitter, you can kind of see where things are heading definitely in the equities world.

我觉得再过六到九个月，你就能在链上交易任何国家的股票了。

And I think within the next probably six to nine months, you will be able to trade any stock in any country in the world on chain.

所以，这就是我们正在为未来做准备的方向。

And so, you know, that's the that's the future that we're preparing for.

现在各个公司都在产品层面忙得不可开交，希望监管方面也能尽快明朗，SEC的豁免政策能早点落地。

There's a lot going on at the the product level at different companies, and then, hopefully we see clarity go through and this the SEC exemption come through as well.

这无疑是大势所趋，我们也会朝着这个方向走。

And so that's definitely the direction things are heading and that's where we're going.

卢卡斯，你觉得SOL被低估了吗？

Lucas is SOL undervalued?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，如果你想做个好投资者，就得学会看情绪。前几天我听了图沙尔的一个播客，他说，通常我一觉得自己在行业里像个傻子，那就是该买入的时候；要是觉得自己特别聪明，那多半就该卖了。

I mean if you wanna be a good investor, you have to there's a podcast with Tushar the other day, he's like, yeah, usually if I'm feeling like an idiot for being in the industry, that's when I should buy and when I'm feeling like a genius, that's when I should sell.

所以从内部来看，Solana的走向其实很清楚。

So it's pretty clear from the inside where things are heading on Solana.

但要达到那个状态，还得花点时间。

It's gonna take a bit to get there.

不过如果你想做个好投资者，就得提前布局，别等大家都看明白了再行动。

But if you wanna be a good investor, you have to get ahead of these things.

所以我觉得，它肯定被低估了。

And so I think it's I think it's undervalued for sure.

不过我也想，这种低估可能是因为整个加密市场本身都被低估了。

But I suppose there is being undervalued because crypto is potentially undervalued.

你看，比特币现在才六万四千美元。

You know, Bitcoin is at $64,000.

以太坊也才一千八百美元。

Ether is at $1,800.

Solana 目前是 78 美元。

Solana is at $78.

你觉得 Solana 相比整个加密行业，是不是特别被低估了？

Do you think Solana is uniquely undervalued compared to the rest of the crypto industry?

是的。

Yes.

是因为它有 Prop AMM、高性能执行、代币化股票这些功能吗？

Because of all the Prop AMM, the execution, tokenized stocks, all that kind of stuff?

对。

Yeah.

我觉得有几个原因。

I think there's a few reasons.

主要是之前提到的那些 SIMD 和协议改进，比如通胀控制和代币销毁机制。

Would say a lot of the the SIMD and protocol improvements that we were talking about earlier around inflation and burning.

还有代币化股票。

There's tokenized equities.

我觉得通过JTX，我们会推出很多新功能，让更多人参与交易，也让那些平时不在链上交易的人开始在Solana上交易。

I think there's a lot of stuff that we're gonna bring via JTX to get people trading more and also get people that don't trade on chain to trade on Solana more.

接下来一个月左右，我们会有很多协议升级，区块容量将从六千万提升到一亿。

There's a ton of protocol improvements coming, so we're gonna go from 60,000,000 to a 100,000,000 block size within the next month or so.

我觉得，最好的团队往往是迭代速度最快的。

And I would say the, like, the best teams win by iterating the fastest.

要说迭代速度，目前没有任何团队能比得上Solana，不管是现有的团队，还是新冒出来的团队，都没人能超过。

And I would say no one is iterating faster than Solana across all the the teams, not only teams that exist today, but the new teams that are coming up too.

只要对比一下Solana在协议层面和整个生态中的迭代节奏，和其他任何生态系统相比，它的速度绝对是遥遥领先的。

And so, like, if you just look at the pace of iteration on Solana between the protocol and all the people working on it and, like, compare that to any other ecosystem, it's by far the best and the fastest iterating.

所以，你当然可以看当前加密市场的整体状况感到悲观，但只要你关注Solana的迭代速度，就很难再悲观了。

And so, like, yeah, you can look at the current state of the world in crypto and, like, be bearish, but it's hard to do that if you just look at the the state of iteration on Solana.

不错。

Cool.

卢卡斯，感谢你来参加节目。

Lucas, thanks for coming on the show.

谢谢邀请

Thanks for having

不客气。

me.

这里是Bankless频道。

Bankless station.

你们都懂的。

You guys know the deal.

加密货币有风险。

Crypto is risky.

投入的钱有可能亏掉。

You can lose what you put in.

但这就是前沿领域。

But, nonetheless, this is Frontier.

不是每个人都适合，但我们很高兴你和我们一起踏上Bankless之旅。

It's not for everyone, but we are glad you're with us on The Bankless Journey.

非常感谢。

Thanks a lot.