莫尔福午夜：固定利率借贷的未来 | 保罗·弗兰姆博特

这也就是个术语问题，不过无所谓。

That's like terminology, but whatever.

对。

Right.

所以呢，大概的思路是——如果我说错了细节你纠正我——但大致是，如果我们提供一年期5%的年利率，那这个债务凭证就会发行，价值95美分。

And so, like, the idea like, maybe correct me if I get these details wrong, but the idea is that if we are offering 5% yearly on a one year loan, then this obligation is issued and it's worth 95¢.

没错。

Exactly.

然后它会到期结算。

But then it will it will settle.

一年后以1美元的价格结算。

It will resolve in one year at $1.

然后这个东西可以在市场参与者之间交易，在Morpho之外或者其他地方，这样就能形成一个市场、一个交易平台。

And then this thing can be traded between market participants on elsewhere or elsewhere from Morpho, and it can be traded, and and that kinda creates creates a market a marketplace.

你觉得这在Morpho上是怎么实现的？

How do you see that happens on Morpho.

所以你不能，我是说，如果你想的话，可以在别的地方交易，但真的没必要，因为所有流动性都会集中在Morpho市场层面。

So you can't, like, I mean, you could trade it elsewhere if you wanted to, but there's really no reason to because all the liquidity will be aggregated at the Morpho market level.

所以你设定好这个水平

So you set the level

这个市场会怎么形成呢？

How will that market emerge?

会是那种订单簿的形式吗？

Will that be like an order book?

是的。

Yes.

它确实像订单簿。

It is it is like an order book.

它就像订单簿一样。

It is like an order book.

它就像一个订单簿，基本上，你知道的，策展人可以进来挂单，比如在Morpho Midnight里，你可以挂出借单、接出借单、挂借款单、接借款单。

It is like an order book where, basically, you know, curators can come in and put make offers, like so in in Morpho Midnight, you can make make bar offers, take bar offers, make land offers, and take land offers.

实际上有四种订单类型。

You have really four types of orders.

所以作为流动性提供者，你可以按某个利率向借款人提供你的流动性。

So as a as a landmaker, you can offer your liquidity to to borrowers at a at at at a given rate.

对吧？

Right?

然后当借款人接受这个报价时，你就相当于进入了贷款，之后双方如果想退出，可以接受现有的报价，或者自己提出报价来退出。

And and so when it gets taken by a borrower, you basically are are are entering the loan, and now the two participants can decide to exit if they want to, in which case they can take existing offers or they can make offers themselves to exit.

对吧？

Right?

但重要的是，一级市场和二级市场要处于同一个框架内。

But it's important that the primary and the secondary markets are in the same construct.

对吧？

Right?

比如，协议几乎不区分这两者，这意味着，如果你参与了一个年底到期的项目，情况就是这样。

Like, the the protocol makes almost no difference between the two, which means that, you know, if, for example, you are there is, like, this end of year maturity that is happening that you're in.

嗯，也许吧，如果你想在年底前一个月退出，你可能会匹配到某个只是为了要一个月期限贷款的人。

Well, maybe, you know, if you want to live one month before the end of the year, maybe you'll be able to match with someone that is here just because they wanted a one month maturity law.

对吧？

Right?

这些基本上就是同一个市场。

And and those are, the same markets, basically.

所以我对固定利率、固定期限市场有点零售用户的反感，是因为单个合同、协议或市场义务并不代表市场本身。

And so the the reason why I have some sort of, like, retail oriented aversion to fixed rate, fixed term marketplaces is because an individual, like, contract or agreement or, like, market obligation is not the market.

而我之所以推崇像Uniswap的x乘以y等于k或者Aave的模式，是因为它们本身就是市场。

And the reason why I I call things like Uniswap's x times y equals k or Aave's model is because there it is the market.

它们只是把很多人聚合在一起。

It's just like aggregated a bunch of people.

所以当两方聚在一起，同意固定利率、固定期限贷款时，我会觉得，这太自上而下了。

And so, like, when two parties come together and they agree on fixed rate, fixed term loans, I'm like, well, that's so top down.

你怎么知道那甚至就是市场的现行利率呢？

That's that that's how do you know that's even what the market going rate is?

但我觉得这里的情况是，当大量这样的东西被创建出来时，整体上市场就形成了，因为有太多独立的构建模块在产生它。

But I think what happens here is that when a ton of these things are created, then in aggregate, the market emerges because so there's so many individual building blocks producing it.

不对。

No.

我其实认为在Midnight里这两种效应都存在。

I I actually think you have both of those effects in Midnight.

所以，如果我没理解错你的问题，对于某个特定的债务，你可以建立一种端到端的关系，就像在Uniswap或Aave上一样。

So if if I'm reading your question correctly, for a given obligation, you can have it's a end to end relationship just like on Unisoft or on Avid.

它不像场外交易。

It's not like an OTC.

如果你想的话，也可以通过Midnight的架构进行场外交易。

You could do OTC transaction if you wanted to through the the the the Midnight construct.

但如果你拿BTC-USDC市场到年底来看，它的运作方式和Morpho Blue池或Aave池完全一样。

But if you take, like, the the BTC USDC market and end of the year, it functions exactly the same as as a Morpho Blue pool or an AAVE pool, etcetera.

这些特定的债务是可互换的，就像你的aToken是可互换的一样。

It's like the given obligations are fungible the same way your a tokens are fungible.

对吧？

Right?

所以对于特定的债务来说，它就是一个市场。

So it is a market for a given obligation.

在此基础上，因为你有这么多债务，你还会有横向的网络效应，这得益于多市场报价和回调机制。

Now on top of that, because you have so many obligations, you also have transversal network effects, thanks to, like, multi market offers, callbacks.

这个我们可以再聊。

We can talk about this.

不过，是的。

But but but but yeah.

这样说得通吗？

Does that make sense?

对。

Yeah.

我觉得可以理解。

I think so.

我比较期待看到的是，某种类似资产端的子利率曲线会出现。

The thing that I'm I'm interested to see emerge is some sort of, like, sub interest rate curve on assets.

我觉得在Morpho Midnight里，占主导地位的资产会是稳定币和美元，毕竟我们生活的世界就是这样。

Now I think, like, the dominant asset inside of Morpho Midnight is going to be Stablecoins and dollars just because that's just the world that we live in.

但像ETH和比特币这类非加密资产或非稳定币，也会逐渐形成自己的利率。

But there's going to be interest rates emerging on, like, non crypto asset or non Stablecoins like ETH and Bitcoin.

所以你可以聊聊这个。

And so maybe you can talk about that.

你一边笑一边点头，看起来挺兴奋的。

You're smiling and you're nodding your head somewhat enthusiastically.

那不如就聊聊，像比特币和ETH这类资产，利率或者说债券市场是怎么形成的。

So maybe maybe talk about, like, how interest rates or, like, bond markets emerge for for, like, things like Bitcoin and ETH.

对。

Yeah.

你知道我为什么笑吗？因为我们发布Midnight之后，才过了十个小时，就已经有五六个帖子在讨论利率曲线了。

You know, the reason I'm I'm laughing is because we released Midnight, and then literally ten hours later, you had already, like, five or six threads on, like, the rate curve.

尽管协议才刚刚启动，流动性大概只有10万左右，但人们已经开始画利率曲线了。

Even though, you know, the protocol was just launching, there was, like, a 100 k of liquidity or something, and people were already drawing the the the the rate curves.

在利率曲线上做PJ。

Doing PJ on the rate curve.

对。

Yeah.

我当时就想，各位，这个市场还很小。

And I was like, guys, it's still very small market.

你知道，任何人都可以操纵它。

Like, you know, anyone could manipulate that.

不过，我觉得这仍然是好事。

But still, I think it's good.

对吧？

Right?

而且我认为，确实会出现全新的数据点。

And I think it's it's true that you're gonna have brand new data points.

对。

Right.

坦白说，这些数据在DeFi甚至传统金融里，有些方面你根本找不到。

That, you know, you frankly, you don't have in in in DeFi or even in finance, you know, for for some of this.

比如，当我们把资产代币化等等。

Like, as we tokenize assets, etcetera.

所以我对这个非常兴奋。

So I'm I'm very excited about this.

我得说，这更像是一种——我觉得短期内对Morpho的商业价值不大，所以对我来说，这有点像一种书呆子式的兴趣。

I will say it's more like, I don't think it has so much business value for Morpho in the short term, so it's like I need to like, it's a bit like a nerd, like, interest for me.

但是，是的，我认为随着市场参与者越来越复杂，我们会为很多不同的资产及其原生利率提供价格发现。

But but, yeah, I I think I think as the market participants get more complex, we will offer price discovery on on a lot of different assets and their, like, native interest rate.

我最兴奋的其实不是某个稳定币利率的价格发现，而是背后的信任假设。

What I'm most excited about is actually not the price discovery of the rate of the given Stablecoin, but more of the underlying trust assumption.

我这话是什么意思呢？

What do I mean by this?

也就是说，当你到Morpho来借钱的时候，你得先证明自己，才能拿到融资。

Is that when you come to Morpho as a bar to borrow something, you have to prove yourself, right, to get the financing.

通常，你会带着一大笔比特币或者一大笔抵押品过来。

So usually, you come with a big stash of Bitcoin or a big stash of collateral.

但Midnight让你可以把这个范围扩大，如果你愿意的话。

But Midnight lets you extend this to more than that if you want to.

所以协议里有一个模块，让你可以表达为什么你值得被信任。

So there's a module in the protocol that lets you express why you should be trusted.

这可以是抵押品，但也可以是你的身份，或者你的应收账款之类的。

So that could be collateral, but that could also be your identity, or that could be your, you know, receivables, whatever.

然后放贷方就能看到这些信息，并据此定价。

And then the creators will be able to see this and then price it.

对吧？

Right?

这让我想起我大约一年前写的一篇文章，叫《信任的价格》，显然，那是在Midnight的背景下写的。

And and that echoes to an article I wrote, like, a year ago, approximately, that's called the price of trust, which, you know, obviously, I wrote in the context of Midnight.

所以，基本上，让我兴奋的是，Morpho Midnight 就像一台机器，用来评估信任假设，以及你为什么值得信任或值得获得信贷。

And and and, basically, this is what I'm excited about is, like, Morpho Midnight is a machine to price trust assumptions and why you should be trustworthy or creditworthy in general.

总之就是这样。

And anyway.

所以作为借款人，

So as a borrower,

我可以提供额外的理由来说明为什么我值得信任，有些理由可以是链上硬编码的、原生的加密资产，比如抵押品。

I could I could give extra reasons as to why I am trustworthy, and some can be very, like, hard coded on chain crypto native, like collateral.

但也可以只是说，我有这个业务，我们赚了这么多钱，这里有文件可以证明。

But it could also just be like, I have this business, and we make this much money, and here are the documents to prove that.

但信不信由你。

But it's up to you to believe that or not.

对。

Exactly.

没错。

Exactly.

这就是最激动人心的地方。

And this is the exciting part.

你甚至根本不需要抵押品。

You don't even need collateral at all.

比如，我现在就可以去Midnight市场说，嘿。

Like, you could I I could come to the Midnight market right now and say, hey.

你知道，我是保罗。

You know, I'm Paul.

我是这个项目的CEO，我签字确认。

I'm, like, the CEO of this thing, and I I sign it.

你明白吗？

You know?

我通过某种带有信任度的证明机制来验证这一点。

I prove it in some capacity with a proving mechanism that has some trust factor.

我申请贷款10万美元。

I'm I'm I'm requesting a 100 k.

我相信会有人愿意借给我的。

I'm I'm sure people will lend to me.

对吧？

Right?

他们可能会以很差的利率借出，但价格嘛……对。

They probably lend at a terrible rate, but their prices Yeah.

你你你得

You you'll you'll have to

那那利率由谁来决定呢？

how how who would determine the rate?

你会说，比如，嘿。

You would say, like, hey.

一千，十万。

1 k, a 100,000.

谁愿意承担风险谁说了算。

Whoever is willing to take the risk.

关键是这一点。

And here's the key thing.

当你把风险和利率外部化，显然，你知道，你比我更清楚这一点。

When you externalize risk and you externalize rate from the obviously, like, you know, we've been you know, you you know this better than I do.

比如，我们讨论低抵押贷款已经六年了，一直在问我的DeFi协议如何承销低抵押贷款。

Like, it's been, like, six years since we talk about, like, undercollateralized loans, and we've always been asking how is my DeFi protocol gonna underwrite under collateralized loans?

答案是，它做不到。

Like, the the the answer is it does not.

一段代码无法给人们提供信用。

Like, a piece of code is not here to to give credit to people.

信用是很复杂的。

Like, credit is complex.

不过，也许世界上最大的私人信贷基金知道如何承销这些东西。

However, maybe the largest private credit funds in the world know how to underwrite those things.

对吧？

Right?

然后他们会给它定价。

And they'll give it a price.

对吧？

Right?

所以，要解锁下一波贷款和低抵押信贷等业务，关键需要具备的要素，其实就是把利率和风险外部化，这样市场就能为任何类型的风险定价。

And so the key things, the key elements that you need to have in place in order to unlock the next pockets of loans and under collateralized credit, etcetera, is actually, like, externalizing the rate and externalizing the risk such that the market can price any type of risk.

也许你展示出来的自己，有点花哨，不太值得信任，但市场会给你定价，然后说，哦，其实你关于你公司的那些说法，我不信。

And maybe what you prove about yourself is, like, a little bit, like, you know, fancier and not that trustworthy, but then the market will price it and say, oh, actually, your your statement, like, about your company, I don't believe that.

我觉得那不是一份好文件。

I I don't think that's a good document.

对吧？

Right?

所以，也许它就是那样。

So the the maybe it is.

对吧？

Right?

所以他们会根据这个给你一个利率。

And so they'll they'll give you a rate according to that.

对。

Right.

因为，比如，有人可能会进来，说，嘿。

Because, like, somebody come in could come in and and say, hey.

我们代表苹果。

We represent Apple.

我们就是苹果。

We we are Apple.

这是我们的S-1文件，然后这可能是欺诈。

Here are our s ones, and then it could be fraud.

当然。

Of course.

而Morpho Midnight并不负责判断这是否是欺诈。

And it's not it's not for Morpho Midnight to ascertain whether that's fraud or not.

但所有这些信息都是在链上生成的吗？

But that all of that information is made on chain?

也就是说，这些都是公开的证明？

Like, this is like public attestations?

这是一个模块。

So this is this is a a module.

顺便说一下，我们现在不关注这个。

And by the way, I should say we're not focusing on that for now.

我们关注的是协议中可行的部分。

We're focusing something that's possible in the protocol.

但目前，我们从最基本的借贷开始——不是借贷，而是超额抵押的加密贷款之类的。

But for now, we're starting with the very borrowing I mean, not borrowing, but, overcollateralized crypto loans, etcetera.

但那是……

But that's something

对，基础的东西。

The basics of yeah.

我们可以分享更多

We would be able to share more

关于这个协议，它让你在链上表达关于你自己的信任信号。

in time about is is the protocol lets you express on chain trust signals about yourself.

对吧？

Right?

不管那是什么意思。

Whatever that means.

可以是一个预言机。

Could be an oracle.

我们不会说它具体是什么，它是一个非常通用的模块。

Like, we don't say how it's a very general module.

基本上就是这样。

It's basically Yeah.

它就像一个备注字段。

It's just like a memo field.

就是，对吧。

Is it just is yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

就是一个

It's a

备注字段。

memo field.

对。

Yeah.

它就像一个空模块，你基本上可以说，嘿。

It's it's like an empty module, and and you can basically say, hey.

这是我的，随便什么，零知识证明之类的，你懂吧？

Here is my, whatever, z k proof of whatever, like you know?

然后策展人会评估这个，我们再给它定价。

And that the curators will assess this and when we'll price it.

对吧？

Right?

而且我觉得，顺便说一句，这其实是解决抵押不足贷款问题的答案。

And I think by the way, I think this is the answer to undercollateralized loans.

我认为这会构建出

I think this will construct

我明白那是怎么运作的了。

I see how that would work.

确实如此。

It is.

对吧？

Right?

这很令人兴奋。

That's exciting.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

对。

Yeah.

因为这就像，嘿，

Because it because it's like, hey.

你同时也在做的是，比如像苹果这样的公司，如果它想获得一笔信用额度，它需要提供足够的材料来建立市场信任。

What you what you're also doing is like, if somebody like Apple, the company Apple, for example, wanted to get a line of credit, it's it's on them to provide enough material to create trust in the market.

所以它们需要让律师签署一些文件，比如发表一份公开声明。

And so they their need to get their lawyers to sign off on something, like, they need to make a public statement about this.

比如，是的，这确实是我们。

Like, yes, this is actually us.

这确实是我们承诺要做的事情。

This is actually what we're committing to.

然后那些可能给这个市场提供资金的人就会想，如果苹果不履行承诺，我就去告他们，把他们告上法庭。

And then the people probably supplying money to that market are like, well, if Apple doesn't follow through on that, I'm going to sue them because I'm gonna take them to a court.

但这又跟链上没有任何关系了。

But that's, again, outside of anything on chain.

没错。

Exactly.

链上的价值就在于匹配。

The value of on chain is is the matching.

就是最终贷款人和最终借款人之间的公开匹配，这样可以实现更好的价格发现，提高效率，从而降低苹果或者其他任何公司的资金成本。

It's the open matching with end lenders, with end borrowers, which achieves better price discovery and and better better efficiency, which lowers the cost of capital for an apple or for whoever, frankly.

对吧？

Right?

这不只限于苹果。

It's not restricted to apple.

比如说，如果你想申请房屋抵押贷款，基本上，Morpho 可以让你对每一个贷款人进行全球拍卖。

Like, if you want to a home mortgage, mortgage, you could you basically it lets Morpho lets you run global auctions on every single lender.

当你申请房贷的时候，你不再只是去银行，接受他们给的利率，而是会在上万家银行之间搞一个拍卖。

And when you get your home mortgage, like, you're gonna instead of doing, like, a just going to your bank and and obey to whatever interest rate they give you, you're gonna run an auction on 10,000 different banks.

对吧？

Right?

实际上，我们会帮忙促成这件事。

Now in practice, we are gonna help facilitate this.

当然，我们并不负责执行任何条款，但我们可以提供一套语言，让人们表达自己为什么值得信任。

Like, obviously, we're not responsible for the enforcement of any of that, but we can come up with a language for people to express why they are trustworthy.

而且，如果我们能有一套好的语言、好的抽象框架，就能促进资本的有效形成和流动。

And and if we you know, a good language, good abstraction will allow for good capital formation and and fascinate.

这就是我们在整个过程中扮演的角色。

So that's our role, right, in in in in all of this.

但我觉得，总的来说，这是解决现有超阶级关系之外问题的方案。

But I think, overall, this is the solution to, like, extending beyond the set of overclass relations that we have.

我们花了很长时间才意识到这一点。

Took us a lot of time to realize.

说实话，我不骗你。

I'm not gonna lie.

但我觉得这确实是问题的关键所在。

Like but I think this is really the the key of of this.

另一个让人兴奋的地方是，如果这能行得通，身份信息就会开始在链上浮现，因为你会需要地址、信用记录、身份信息、还款历史等等，然后身份就自然而然地从中显现出来了。

The other thing that is exciting about that is that if that works, that starts to get identity to emerge on chain because you're going you're going to want addresses and their credit history and who they are and their, like, history of repayment, and all of a sudden, like, identity emerges out of that.

完全同意。

100%.

我觉得Morpho Midnight会成为身份层第一个实现产品市场匹配的项目。

I think I think Morpho Midnight is gonna be the first PMF of the identity layer.

身份层之前一直有产品市场匹配的问题，因为没有商业场景。

The identity layer had the PMF problem because there was no business case.

但现在商业场景会非常清晰：如果你提供身份基础组件，你的资金成本就能降低几个基点。

But now the business case is gonna be very clear is that your cost of capital is gonna be a few bips lower if you provide the identity primitive.

所以，把身份信息放在链上，就能带来明确的价值回报。

Hence, there's, like, a, like, clear value that you can achieve by having your identity on chain.

你预计在 Morpho Midnight 上哪些资产会表现不错？

What assets do you expect to to do well in Morpho Midnight?

显然，稳定币非常普遍，我预计稳定币的收益和以比特币、以太坊这类基础抵押品进行的稳定币借贷，也就是现状，会继续下去。

Obviously, like, Stablecoins are just so prolific, and I would expect Stablecoin yield and Stablecoin borrowing with basic collateral like Bitcoin and Ether, which is the status quo, to also continue.

但是，会不会有新型资产在 Morpho Midnight 上引起共鸣呢？

But, like, will there will there be new types of assets that will hit resonance with Morpho Midnight?

会的。

Yes.

首先我想说，就像你提到的，稳定币总体上是我们关注的重点。

And I think first, I should mention, as you said, that stablecoins is the major focus for us, like, in general.

一个有趣的数据是，Morpho 的贷款中 92% 是稳定币，而借贷协议的平均水平大约在 50% 到 60%。

One interesting statistic is that 92% of Morpho is loans are stablecoins, whereas the average for lending protocols is, like, around 50% or 60%.

所以仍然有很多的轻松借贷、杠杆操作等等。

So there's still a lot of, like, ease, leverage, lending, etcetera, etcetera.

实际上，我们现在是 EVM 上最大的 USDC DeFi 协议，领先幅度相当大。

We're actually the largest USDC, like like, DeFi protocol on on EVM by quite far now.

因为我们非常专注于稳定币市场，我们认为它最终会增长得最快。

And because we focus so much on on just, like because we think Stablecoin markets are the one that will eventually grow the most.

话虽如此，这里面还是有很多价值的。

That being said, there's a lot of value.

虽然市场较小，但允许人们借出资产和做空资产——无论是ETH、比特币，还是未来代币化的股票——都很有价值。

It's a smaller market, but there is a lot of value for allowing people to lend assets and to short assets, whether that is ETH, Bitcoin, tokenized stocks at some points.

比如证券借贷，在传统金融中就是一个非常大的应用场景。

SEC lending, for example, securities lending in general, is is a big, big use case in.

所以，最终Morpho Midnight应该在合适的合规框架下支持这种功能。

And so, eventually, Morpho Midnight should allow for this with the right compliance guardrails.

是的。

And yeah.

所以，我觉得很兴奋，因为从数据来看，这最终会是一个巨大的应用场景，但我更兴奋的是稳定币借贷本身。

And so I'd say I am excited because I think it's gonna be a huge use case eventually if you look at stratifying numbers, but I'm even more excited about, like, Stablecoin lending in general.

你觉得哪些新实体能因为Morpho Midnight而上链？

What new entities do you think will be able to come on chain, because of Morpho Midnight?

比如，你们有没有已经对接好的合作伙伴，来真正在 Morpho Midnight 上开展做市业务？或者，你觉得接下来最有可能加入的华尔街机构是哪一家？就是那种心想：‘终于搞明白了，那些加密圈的人已经弄懂了固定期限、固定利率的借贷’，然后说：‘现在我可以进场链上玩了。’

Either, like, any sort of, like, partners that you have lined up to actually make markets happen on Morpho Midnight or or just, like, what's the next most proximate Wall Street institution who's like, oh, finally, they figured the crypto bros have figured out fixed term, fixed rate interest.

现在我可以进场链上玩了。

Now I can go play on chain.

你觉得会是哪家机构呢？

Like, who who do you think that is?

所有那些设有加密业务部门的大型机构，如果它们还没接触 Midnight，那未来二十四个月内一定会跟进。

All the large ones that have a crypto arm, if they haven't touched midnight already, they will in the next twenty four months.

对吧？

Right?

我这么说可不是随便说说的，你懂的。

I've I've and I'm not saying this just like you know?

真的，我们确实跟他们都聊过。

Like like, we we literally talk to all of them.

我们还跟他们一起做了几个概念验证项目，其中一些已经过了那个阶段了。

We actually built POCs with a bunch of them, and and some of them, they are not at POC stage anymore.

他们实际上正在推出完整的业务。

They're actually, like, launching entire businesses.

顺便说一句，这确实是机构采用加密货币的一个真正有趣的时刻。

So which, by the way, is, like, a true interesting moment for the institutional adoption of crypto.

它正在走出概念验证阶段。

It's, like, moving out of POCs.

不过，是的，我认为顺序一直是：钱包优先，然后是交易所，接着是金融科技公司、新型银行、资产管理公司，最后才是传统银行，这就是采用的顺序。

But, yeah, I think, you know, the order of things has always been, like, wallets first, then exchanges, then fintechs, then neobanks, then asset managers, and then the actual banks is the order of the adoption.

然后对于每一类，你都会看到最激进的玩家会率先行动。

And then for each of those buckets, you look at the most aggressive players, and they will move in first.

对吧？

Right?

然后他们会迫使该类别中通常最保守的大玩家最终也参与进来。

And and then they will force the the bigger players that are usually the most conservative in the category to to lean in eventually.

是的。

And yeah.

这跟我们在以太坊上看到的整个新银行、新券商革命有什么关系？

How does this fit into the whole neobank, neobrokerage revolution that we're kinda watching on Ethereum?

差不多去年这个时候，整个圈子都在关注新银行，大家都在讨论这个。

So, like, last year about this time, there was this whole whole movement and, like, attention on on neobanks.

比如，有了稳定币，稳定币增长这么快，钱包又容易搭建，他说，搞个新银行很容易。

Like, oh, without with Stablecoins with such a prolific growth of Stablecoins and easy to build wallets, he says, it's easy to make a neo bank.

然后EtherFi算是开了个头。

And, like, EtherFi kind of led that.

现在呢，我们开始进入新券商的时代了。

Now we're getting into, like, neo brokerages.

对啊，现在链上已经有代币化的股票了。

Well, now there's tokenized stocks on chain.

有了代币化股票之后，

And now with tokenized stocks.

就算不是真正的券商，也能轻松搞个新券商或者经纪业务。

It's easy to make a neo brokerage or brokerage without actually being a broker dealer.

我大概理解Morpho Midnight和Morpho Blue的意思，它们好像在说，难道你不想要保证金交易吗？

I kinda see Morpho Midnight and and Morpho Blue generally saying, well, don't you want margin?

是的。

And Yes.

如果所有这些资产都在链上，那Morpho这个平台难道不能为所有这些资产创建保证金账户吗？

If you have all of these assets on chain, like, can't Morpho, the platform, platform, create create margin margin accounts for all of these things?

对。

Yeah.

完全正确。

100%.

你知道，Morpho就像基础设施，让所有这些参与者能够连接到全球网络，提供优质的收益产品或贷款产品。

Like, you know, Morpho is infrastructure for all those, like, players to connect to global networks to offer good yield products or loan products.

对吧？

Right?

所以它绝对是一个核心组成部分。

So it's like an absolutely essential piece.

比如说，如果你想做一个金融类的应用，就得有贷款和收益功能。

Like, if you want to offer some form of financial app, you have loans, you have yield.

否则，你就不是一个好的金融应用。

Otherwise, you're just not a good financial app.

对吧？

Right?

没有这些，很难有竞争力。

It's gonna be hard to defend without without that.

不过我得说，我觉得这是一场有趣的革命。

And and I will say, though, I think it's an interesting revolution.

我得说，现在任何有用户基础的人都会考虑把自己的用户群体金融化。

I will say anybody that has distribution now will think about financializing their user base.

我甚至不知道‘金融化’这个词是不是真的存在。

I don't even know if financializing is a word.

但它确实存在。

But It is.

基本上，我觉得，对，我是法国人，所以有时候我会用一些词。

Basically, I think I think, yeah, I'm I'm French, so I'd sometimes I I use words.

我其实也不是百分之百确定。

I'm, like, not 100% sure.

但我

But I

觉得任何与大量用户有交互界面的平台，最终都会拥有由自我托管钱包驱动的用户账户，比如像Dynamic、Turnkey或Privy这样的。

think anybody that has a surface of interaction with a large set of users will end up with user accounts that are powered by self custodial wallets, like a a dynamic, a turnkey, or a privy.

然后从那里，他们就能接入链上的全球网络，这样一来，像Twitter或者任何有用户基础的应用，都能让用户从余额中赚取利息。

And and and from there, they will be able to access global networks on on on chain, which will allow, like, a Twitter or, like, you know, frankly, whatever app that has distribution to or let the users earn interest on their balances.

或者像现在的Uber，它有Uber Cash，然后通过链上让用户赚利息，Airbnb或者其他应用也一样。

Or, like, now you have Uber that has, you know, Uber cash, and they will let you earn interest through chains, like, on this, or Airbnb or, like, whatever.

所以我觉得这件事可以从两个角度看。

So I think it's you could see it both ways.

一方面，这对新型银行来说是好事，但另一方面，所有人都会变成新型银行，包括那些并非专业做银行、但凭借其他相关业务拥有用户优势的机构。

It's like, oh, it's gonna be great for neobanks, but also everybody's gonna become a neobanks, including those that are not professional neobanks and that have the edge of having distribution from their other adjacent activity, basically.

对。

Yeah.

你肯定也注意到了，你说的这种模式大概十年前就在麦当劳和星巴克开始出现了。比如星巴克，你可以往里面存钱，他们当时有数亿美元的未偿债务，都是客户往星巴克钱包里充了50美元之类的，然后星巴克就从中赚取收益。

You definitely saw that the this pattern that you're talking about kind of emerging, like, a decade ago with McDonald's and Starbucks, where, like, Starbucks, you were like, you can deposit they they had something like hundreds of millions of outstanding obligations to their own customers who had loaded up their, like, Starbucks wallet with, like, $50, and then Starbucks was, like, collecting

全部收益。

all the yield on that.

所以我们很早就看到了这种苗头。

And so, like, we saw early early tremors of that.

我记得2020年的时候经常讨论这个。现在你说的意思是，只要任何应用有用户基础，就能轻松把它变成一个带收益的Venmo。

I remember talking about that a lot in 2020 And now now what you're saying is like, well, if anyone has any sort of distribution, you can turn it you can turn your app into a Venmo with yield so easily.

是的。

Yes.

我觉得没错。

I think that's right.

现在做这个确实非常容易。

I think that's incredibly easy now.

这也回到了我刚才说的开放性和可访问性的问题。

And that also comes down to the point I was making about openness and accessibility.

说白了，现在要建一家新银行非常容易，多亏了DeFi，你直接嵌入一个自托管钱包就行了。

It's like, literally, can build a new bank, like, very easily, thanks to basically, like, you know, like, DeFi, where you can just, like, issue embed, like, a self custodial wallet.

就是这么简单。

It's, like, so easy.

而且我觉得我们不久前才刚达到这个转折点。

And I think we've reached this inflection point not so long ago, by the way.

大概就三个月前吧，在加密轨道上构建金融应用成了最简单的方式。

I think it's, like, a three three month thing where it became the easiest way to build, like, a financial app is on crypto rails.

没有别的选择，它就是最简单的。

Like, there's no it's easiest it's easier.

我觉得金融产品的质量还没跟上，除了支付和收益这些领域。

I don't think we have the quality of the financial products yet, except in some areas, like payments or or yield sometimes.

但只要我们不断改进，总会越来越好的。

But but, eventually, if we just get better and better.

我们来谈谈资本效率吧，因为机构即将上链。

Talk about capital efficiency because institutions are going to come on chain.

他们只有在链上资本效率更高的情况下，才会把钱放上去。

They're gonna put their money on chain if and only if it is more capital efficient for them to do so.

而这其实一直是加密货币长期以来的承诺。

And that's kind of always been the long promise of crypto.

在加密货币里，你的资本能发挥更大的作用。

Just your capital goes further in crypto.

那么Morpho Midnight在这个方程里扮演什么角色呢？

How does Morpho Midnight fit into this equation?

对。

Yes.

资本效率最终将决定一切。

Capital efficiency, ultimately, is gonna be everything.

我认为，链上贷款的资金成本更低，这将成为下一波大规模采用的最大引力。

I think the cost of capital for loans being better on chain is gonna be the largest, the biggest gravity pull for the next wave of adoption.

而且，我承认我很有偏见，因为我正在搭建一个借贷协议，但我真的觉得就是这样。

And, again, I'm super biased because I'm building a lending protocol, but I really think it is.

我真的认为融资是金融的基石，就像名字暗示的那样。

I really think financing is the cornerstone of finance and as the name hints at.

而且，我真的觉得融资也是当今市场中缺乏竞争的部分，这给金融体系带来了巨大的净息差，对整个经济来说，大概有两三百个基点。

And and I really think financing is also some of the markets today in that is uncompetitive, and and that gives a huge net interest margin to the financial system, which we should account for, like, 200, 300 bps on the entire economy.

而且，因为在链上轨道上，一切都是开放的，如果你有一个能让你定价的基础设施，那么就会有公开竞争。

And and because on on chain rails, everything is open, if you have an infrastructure that lets you set the price, then you have open competition.

如果有了公开竞争，就会压缩净息差，这既是我们会被讨厌也会被喜欢的原因，因为这会带来巨大的颠覆。

And if you have open competition, you compress the net interest margin, which is both the reason we're gonna be hated and loved because that's gonna create an immense amount of disruption.

对。

And Right.

我们会破坏一些商业模式，但同时也帮其他人省了一大笔钱。

We trust a bunch of business models, but then we also save other people a bunch of money.

完全正确。

Exactly.

而且，你知道，科技的故事就是颠覆行业。

And, you know, it's like the story of tech is, like, disrupting industries.

我们花了很长时间才颠覆金融，因为这是一个监管严格、信任要求高的行业，等等原因。

Took us a lot of time to disrupt finance because it's, like, it's a much lower industry for regulations reasons, for so trust reasons, etcetera.

但我们现在已经做到了。

But we're we're we're there now.

我可以告诉你，那些银行和资产管理公司真的在认真对待这个问题。

And I can tell you those, like, those banks and asset managers detect this problem seriously.

他们很清楚，他们过去赚钱的方式会因为链的开放性而消失。

Like, they really understand that the way they were making money is gonna disappear because of the openness of the chain.

基本上，你可以采取两种姿态，要么阻止这种情况发生，要么全力投入。

And, basically, you can take two postures, either you prevent this from happening or you fully lean in.

因为如果你先行动，你就有机会在别人之前颠覆自己和他人。

And because it's your first, then you have the opportunity to disrupt yourself and disrupt others before they do.

博弈论的现实是，你应该全力投入，因为有些人已经开始全力投入了。

And the reality of the game theory is that you should fully lean in because some others are already started to fully lean in.

是的，你没得选。

And and and, yeah, you don't have the choice.

对吧？

Right?

而且我觉得，实际上，DeFi对传统金融的影响力比人们想象的要大得多。

And I think, actually, DeFi has much more leverage on TradFi now than than people may think.

这对他们来说不是选择题。

It's like, this is not a choice thing for them.

他们必须这么做，因为有些竞争对手已经在积极布局了。

Like, they they have to because some of their competitors are already leaning in.

有些人看到银行被拆解，可能会幸灾乐祸。

Say someone took some Schradenfreude in watching banks get unbundled.

我觉得这会是那个过程中一个非常重要的时刻。

I would expect that this would be a very big moment along that journey.

因为你刚才提到，这就像是在压缩净息差。

Because, like, it was something that you said is, like, collapsing the net interest margin.

那其实就是在说，银行赚钱的方式被瓦解了，利润又回到了微薄的利差上。

Well, then you're just talking about collapsing how banks make money and giving and putting it back at the margins.

所以，你看，我们在加密货币领域发明了不少东西，从技术层面来说，已经催生了一整套所谓的“无银行”运动。

And so, like, you know, there's been a bunch of things that we've invented in crypto that have created, like, this whole, like, bankless movement technologically speaking.

比如，第一，无银行货币——比特币和以太坊、稳定币，这些其实才是真正银行的钱。

Like, one, bankless money, Bitcoin and Ease, Stablecoins, like the money of actual real banks.

然后，这其实也是在把银行的后端系统拿出来，让它能在链上运行。

And then this is is just like also just taking kind of the back end of banks and allowing it to get expressed on chain.

所以到了2026年，我们终于有了固定利率、固定期限的贷款，而银行很大一部分收益和资金供给正是来自这类业务。

And so like in 2026, we finally have fixed rate fixed term loans, that is kind of where banks get a lot of their yield and supply a lot of just getting to make a lot of their a lot of their money.

所以，我觉得如果有人办了个叫“无银行”的播客，他们肯定会为此兴奋不已。

And so I so I suppose if somebody had a podcast called bankless, they would be thrilled about this.

我确实……我确实没把这两件事联系起来。

I did I actually did not make the connection.

那我在做什么呢？

How about what I was doing?

就是关于我们刚才聊的，跟播客名字有关的那部分。

About, like, the the the sort of, like, what we were saying in in in in the name of the podcast.

我觉得，我觉得，我觉得没错。

I think I think I think that's right.

我觉得这事儿有意思，不光是因为固定利率固定期限贷款是银行业的一大块业务。

I think it's not big just just because fixed rate fixed term is a big part of the banking industry that it's interesting.

还因为现在利率是由市场决定的。

It's also because now it's market defined interest rate.

比固定利率固定期限更关键的是，现在它成了一个市场。

This is more than being fixed rate fixed term is because now it's a marketplace.

这才是竞争性资本成本最纯粹的体现。

This is how this is the purest expression of we're gonna have competitive cost of capital.

就是这样。

This is it.

我们有了一个开放的信任市场。

We have an open market for for for for trust.

顺便说一句，这也是我为什么总体上做Morpho的原因。一种理解净息差的方式是，我喜欢把借款人看作是有抱负去实现某些事情的人，他们需要资本来实现目标。

And by the way, this is this is why I this is why I do Morpho in general is one way to think about this net interest margin is so the I like to think of borrowers as as people that have ambitions to realize something in the world, and and and they need capital to achieve it.

对吧？

Right?

他们需要贷款人，也就是那些相信他们、信任他们能做成事的人。

And they need the lenders, which are the people the the believers, that the people that that trust them to achieve stuff.

对吧？

Right?

我认为这是一项非常崇高的活动。

And I think of this as a very noble activity.

金融看起来并不总是最崇高的活动。

Finance does not look always the most noble activity.

它看起来像是唯一一个只转移价值而不创造价值，却还要从中抽成的行业。

It looks like the only industry that moves value around without, like, creating value and yet takes a cat.

对吧？

Right?

听起来确实很吸引人。

It seems sounds very attractive.

但当你描绘出这样一个画面：人们有抱负。

But when you paint a picture of, like, okay, people have ambitions.

他们想要实现这些抱负。

They wanna realize them.

有人相信他们，于是资金就流动起来了。

People believe in them, and so they transmit capital.

这看起来是一件非常重要的事情。

It seems like a very important thing to do.

然而，连接这两层的基础设施层面所承担的成本却非常高。

Yet the cost that is bared on, like, the at the infrastructure level that connects the two layers is very high.

这就像我们一直在讨论的，整个经济中那300个基点的成本。

And it's like the 300 bps that we've been we've been talking about on the entire economy.

我认为Morpho的使命本质上就是降低信任的成本，降低人与人之间相互信任所需的代价。

I think of Morpho's mission is basically collapsing the cost of trust, like collapsing the cost at which humans have to believe in one another and trusting one another.

而实现这一点的方式，就是提供开放的轨道，让各方可以竞争，为对手方提供最优的条件。

And you achieve this by providing open rails in which people can compete to offer the best possible terms to their counterparts.

说实话，这就是我从事加密货币领域的原因，也是我对这些事情感到兴奋的原因——因为在我看来，这个前景简直令人振奋。

And, frankly, I've this is why I work in crypto and why I get excited about all of those things is that the promise is, like, absolutely exhilarating in my perspective.

你觉得到2027年底，Morpho Midnight的总锁仓量能达到多少？

How much TVL do you think Morpho Midnight will have by the end of twenty twenty seven?

哦，大概一年半左右吧。

Oh, one of that one and a half years.

那好吧。

So okay.

我认为一切都高度取决于我们何时能为传统金融解锁应用场景。

I think everything is highly dependent on when we unlock the business cases for TradFi.

因为，你看，现在的总可寻址市场，比如加密货币抵押贷款，大概是一个600亿美元的市场，这已经很不错了。

Because, you know, if you look at the TAM today, like, crypto back loans is, like, what, a $60,000,000,000 market, it's great.

我觉得Midnight最终会吃掉其中很大一部分，并且会成为远超其他任何平台（包括Morpho Blue）的主导者。

I think Midnight is gonna eventually eat a lot of that and and will be the largely dominant player over, like, you know, anybody else, including Morpho Blue.

但这仍然只是几百亿的规模。

But that's still in the order of magnitude of tens of billions.

对吧？

Right?

而且要达到那个水平，可能还需要几年的时间。

And that's probably gonna take a few years to get there anyway.

我真正兴奋的是，午夜协议会解锁哪些新的可触及市场。

What I'm excited about is what are the new addressable markets that were gonna be unlocked by midnight.

那些市场是什么样的？

What are those like?

因为如果你在网络上引入新型的资产托管人或资产管理人，他们能处理数万亿美元的资金，那么规模量级就会迅速改变。

Because the order of magnitude can very quickly change if you onboard new types of of asset curators or asset managers in the network that's basically hand to handle trillions of dollars.

对吧？

Right?

所以我并不是说，午夜协议到2027年就能达到数万亿美元。

So I'm not saying, obviously, Midnight will be trillions of dollars by 2027.

这些时间线我自己并不能完全掌控。

Those are timelines I don't fully control myself.

但我希望它能超过100亿美元，我希望它能超越Morpho Blue的规模。

But I think I think I think I hope it will be more than $10,000,000,000 that would be like, I hope it would have outgrown Morpho Blue.

如果做不到的话，老实说，我会非常失望。

If that's not the case, I would be very disappointed, to be frank.

而且如果到那时我们已经突破了1000亿美元的大关，我也不会感到意外。

And I would not be surprised if we've crossed, like, the $100,000,000,000 mark then.

因为说实话，Morpho Blue花了两年时间才达到100亿美元的规模。

Because it you know, frankly, it, like, took two years to Morpho Blue to reach, like, $10.10 $10,000,000,000.

所以我觉得，按照这样的量级来推算，这个目标并不是不合理的。

So so I think that's an not unreasonable to to take in those orders of magnitude.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我和区块链资本的几位聊过一期播客，他们说到2030年，两万亿美元都算保守的。

I did a podcast with, the Blockchain Capital guys, and, they said $2,000,000,000,000 is, like, conservative by 2030.

那又怎样？

And so what?

你是说Morpho Midnight？

For Morpho Midnight?

不好意思。

Excuse me.

说的是稳定币。

For Stablecoins.

稳定币。

For Stablecoins.

到2030年，链上稳定币规模达到22万亿美元。

$22,000,000,000,000 of Stablecoins on chain by 2030.

是的。

And Yeah.

我认为这暗示着信贷市场、信贷借贷和贷款市场会出现某种爆发，因为它在整个金融体系中是根本性和基础性的。

I think that implies some sort of explosion in credit markets, credit borrowing and lending markets as well because it's so fundamental and foundational to finance at large.

对。

Yeah.

我同意这个观点。

I I agree with that.

说实话，我不太擅长量化预测。

And to be fair, I'm very bad at quantifying predictions.

在DeFi领域，我发现自己比较擅长判断大方向，比如宏观趋势，但要量化具体数字和时间点，那很大程度上取决于很多因素，比如监管政策是否通过。

I I've turned out to be pretty good in DeFi at defining, like, directions and you know, at the high level, but quantifying how much and when is, like you know, depends a lot on, you know, maybe clarity not passing or clarity passing.

这影响很大，或者有些因素是我无法控制的。

It will influence a lot or, like, things that are not in my control.

有个好消息。

Some exciting news.

我们正在推出一档新播客，帮助大家理解加密货币周期，以及如何应对它。

We are launching a new podcast to help people figure out the crypto cycle, how to navigate it.

我认识的最厉害的加密货币周期投资者，他叫迈克尔·纳托。

The best crypto cycle investor I know, his name is Michael Nato.

他运营着DeFi报告。

He runs the DeFi report.

就是这个人，在10月10日价格下跌之前给我发了卖出提醒。

This is the guy that sent me a sell alert before the 10/10 price drop happened.

他的周期分析一直非常精准。

His cycle analysis has been absolutely on point.

我关注他好几年了。

I've been following him for years.

今年，我们开始录制每周的播客节目。

And this year, we started recording weekly podcast episodes.

每期节目，我们都会聊他的投资组合、他持有的资产、市场结构、入场目标、比特币和以太坊的公允价值，以及我们目前处于周期的哪个阶段。

Each one, we get into his portfolio, what he's holding, the market structure, entry targets, fair market value of Bitcoin and Ether, and where we are in the cycle.

每周三都会发布新节目。

There's new episodes that are released every Wednesday.

每期三十分钟。

They're thirty minutes.

时间不长。

They're short.

内容很紧凑。

They're punchy.

我觉得这轮加密周期比大多数都更难把握，所以让我们一起应对吧。

I think this crypto cycle is harder to navigate than most, so let's do it together.

快去订阅这个播客。

Go subscribe to this podcast.

在你能找到播客的地方搜索 DeFi 报告，YouTube、Apple、Spotify 都行，或者看节目介绍里的链接。

Search the DeFi report wherever you get your podcasts, YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or find a link in the show notes.

现在就有新一期等着你。

There's a new episode waiting for you now.

嘿，无银行国度。

Hey, bankless nation.

我是大卫。

It's David.

如果你听到这段，说明你正在收听免费的无银行播客。

If you're hearing this, that's because you are listening to the free bankless podcast feed.

你

Did you

知道还有付费的无银行RSS订阅吗？

know that there is a premium bankless RSS feed?

付费订阅包含我为了个人研究而做的额外采访，以及我想深入了解的关于加密货币行业的问题——这些问题能让我在Bankless Ventures和我的个人投资组合中做出更明智的决策。

The premium feed has extra interviews that I do for my own personal research and just deeper questions that I want answered about the crypto industry, questions that I want to answer so I can be more informed as an investor both at Bankless Ventures and also just in my own personal portfolio too.

另外，没有广告。这意味着如果你选择付费订阅而不是免费版，每年能省下大约二十个小时的生命，因为你直接支持了Banklist。

Also, there are no ads, which means if you listen to the premium feed instead of the free feed, you'll get about twenty hours of your life back every year because you choose to support Banklist directly.

所以，如果你对获取额外内容、跳过广告感兴趣，或者你只是欣赏我们在这里做的事，希望我们继续下去，我们很感激你注册Banklist付费版。节目说明里有链接可以开始。

So if you're interested in getting extra content all while skipping the ads or you just appreciate what we do here and want us to keep doing it, we'd appreciate it if you signed up for Banklist premium, and there is a link in the show notes to get started.

为2026年干杯。

Cheers to a good 2026.

我想听听你对Hester Peirce最近声明的看法。

I wanna get your take on Hester Peirce's statements recently.

她上周发布了一些声明，我觉得她对Vault这个领域挺尊重的，毕竟它已经发展得相当大了，但同时也指出了她对这一领域继续扩张的一些主要担忧。

She released some statements last week that I'd them as, like, respectful to the sector, the Vault sector, because it's grown pretty large while highlighting some key concerns that she has about the sector growing any larger.

具体来说，她说Vault可能属于投资公司或投资合同，还提到借贷策略可能产生属于证券的票据。

More specifically, she said that vaults may be investment companies or investment contracts, and she also said that lending strategies may create notes that are securities.

你看到Hester Peirce的声明时，第一反应是什么？

What what was your reaction when you read Hester Peirce's statements?

对。

Yeah.

首先，我一点也不意外。

So first, I wasn't surprised.

实际上上周，我整个星期都在华盛顿，多次与美国证券交易委员会、商品期货交易委员会以及不同的参议员和工作人员会面等等。

I actually last week, I spent the entire week in in Washington meeting multiple times with the SEC, with the CFTC, with the different senators and staffers, etcetera.

所以我们和所有这些监管机构都保持着密切的联系。

So we're in, like, close contact with with with all of those regulators.

总的来说，我很感激他们考虑得这么周全——我不知道你有没有读完那篇文章，但我觉得它非常合理。

I think, generally, I'm thankful of the thoughtfulness that goes into I I I don't know if you read the full post, but it seems very reasonable to me.

读的时候你会觉得，嘿，

Like, when you read it, you're like, hey.

有些金库可能确实是投资公司。

Some of those vaults may be investment companies.

对吧？

Right?

而且现在市面上有很多金库堆栈。

And there's a bunch of vault stack out there.

金库种类繁多，有些是完全非托管的，比如完全不可变，在时间锁范围内无法更改风险参数。

There's a bunch of different types of vaults, and some of them are fully non custodial, like fully immutable where you can't change the risk parameters within the bounds of a time lock.

而另一些，坦白说，就只是Fireblocks钱包而已。

And some others are, frankly, just Fireblocks wallets.

对吧？

Right?

你只是把钱存进一个Fireblocks钱包，然后这个钱包就能管理一切。

You just deposit into a Fireblocks wallet, and then this Fireblock wallet gets to manage everything.

这里面其实有一个很大的范围。

And there's a world spectrum.

而且，是的，我愿意相信其中有些确实属于投资公司。

And, yes, you know, I'm ready to believe that, you know, some of it is like investment, you know, company companies.

对吧？

Right?

但有些可能不是。

And some of it may not be.

对吧？

Right?

所以我觉得这个声明考虑得非常周全。

And so I think it's a very thoughtful statement to make.

就像她说的，如果某样东西看起来像什么，那它很可能就是什么。

Like, you know, to her points, like, if it looks like, something, then it probably is that something.

而且，我鼓励策展人以及一般的太空参与者去接触SSC。

And, you know, I encourage curators and, you know, just generally space actors to engage with the SSC.

我觉得他们过去几个月一直很开放，就我们所见。

I think they've been very open in in my opinion over the last, you know, months as we know.

所以，是的，我认为他们承认金库的多样性，对我来说最重要的是，他们真正理解策展人对金库的控制权、托管权等存在一个完整的谱系。

So so, yeah, I think them acknowledging the spectrum of vaults was, like, the most important piece for me is that they truly understand that there is, like, a whole, like, spectrum of, like, non custodality control agency that a curator would have on the vault.

借贷协议也一样。

And same for lending protocols.

比如，一个借贷协议在风险参数设置上可能有很大的自主权，也可能完全没有，就像Morpho那样。

Like, a lending protocol can have a lot of agency on how the risk parameters are set or no agency, like like, it's the case for Morpho.

对。

Yeah.

她说了那句关于金库的话。

She said this line about vaults.

这个描述故意写得宽泛而笼统。

This description is purposefully broad and generic.

就像加密货币领域的许多新概念一样，这个词并没有一个明确且广泛认可的定义。

As with many new developments in crypto, this term does not have a specific widely understood definition.

只有那些关注加密货币超过五年的人，才会意识到我们有时候会创造一些词，而这些词本身就被故意设计得过于宽泛和笼统。

And only someone who's been paying attention to crypto for, like, five plus years would be able to, like, have that realization that sometimes we come up with words, and the word itself is just, like, over purposefully broad and generic.

比如“代币”这个词本身。

For example, the word token itself.

有些代币本质上就是证券，而另一些只是收据代币、实用代币——对。

Like, some tokens are literally securities, and others are just, like, a receipt token, a utility yeah.

它实际上什么也解释不了。

Just doesn't actually explain anything.

是的。

Yeah.

你来说吧。

And you go for it.

你说吧。

Go ahead.

抱歉。

Sorry.

其实我想说的是，你知道，当初我提出“策展人”这个词的时候，也是故意这么做的。

I was just gonna say, frankly, that's you know, when I came up with the word curator, I that was also on purpose.

对吧？

Right?

我当时完全不知道这个角色会是什么样子。

I had no idea what this role was gonna be about.

对吧？

Right?

比如，它是不是更接近资产管理人？

Like, and is that, you know, closer to an asset manager?

嗯，其实不是，因为它是非托管的，他们实际上不能管理资产。

Well, not really because it's non custodial and they can't really manage assets.

但同时，有些活动确实有点像，但那些就一定是管理性质的吗？等等。

But at the same time, there are some parts of the activity that resembles that, but, like, is that, you know, necessarily managerial activities, etcetera?

所以我觉得，最稳妥的办法就是，这是个新东西，那就造个新词。

And so I think, you know, the safe bet is, like, it's a new thing, so you create a new word.

然后随着我们和监管机构讨论，慢慢划清界限，比如什么算投资合同，什么不受SEC监管，到时候可以再调整用词，比如用网络代币或证券代币来把概念说清楚。

And then eventually, you know, as we as we discuss with regulators and figure out like, we draw the line on on what should be, like, an investment, like, contract in that case or or or not regulated under the SEC, then you can maybe do a second iteration on the vocabulary you use in order to have maybe an extra objective, like a network token, or a securities token in order to clarify the verbiage.

你最近有没有听我和Andrew Hong的访谈？

Did you listen to my interview with Andrew Hong not too long ago?

那你认识Andrew和他的公司Heard吗？

So so, you know, you know Andrew and and his company, Heard?

不认识。

No.

我没听说过。

I'm not familiar.

他做的是那种AI驱动的智能合约保险库审计。

He they they he does, like, AI enabled inspect source of vaults.

所以这个金库会存入那个金库，然后那个金库再存入这些金库。

And so this vault deposits into that vault, which deposits into these vaults.

所以他搞了个初创公司，能给你展示出所有那些错综复杂的组合拓扑结构。

And so he he, like, has a startup that kind of, like, shows you a sort of topology of all the intertwining permutations.

很多金库之间的相互关联程度，坦白说，挺吓人的。

The frankly scary level of intertwiningness in a lot of the vaults.

所以我和他聊了聊金库行业，我们谈到了这些金库的风险。

And so him and I were him and I were talking about just, the vault industry, and and it was we were talking about the risks of said vaults.

播客快结束的时候，他刚跟我讲了一大堆各种金库的组合方式，把我吓得不轻。

And we came down to the end of the podcast, and this was after he's, like, scaring me with all the different, you know, combatory and comb combinations of different vaults out there.

就好像，你以为自己只是老老实实地把USEC存进这个金库赚6%的利息，结果它又衍生出17个金库。

And just, like, if you you think you are innocently supplying your USEC to get 6% in this vault, but then it explodes into 17 more vaults.

我们最后得出的核心问题是：金库领域里没人愿意承担责任——Morpho不想担责，因为你们只想做个中立的技术平台。

And, like, the the problem the problem statement that we kinda came up with is, like, no one in the vault space is taking a liability because Morpho doesn't want liability because you guys just want to be a neutral tech platform.

而金库的策展人也不愿意担责。

And the curators don't want liability.

是啊，因为没人愿意承担责任。

Well, give me a because because no one wants liability.

但我们得出的结论是，在保险库这个领域里，必须有人站出来承担责任，去注册并遵守那些三个字母、四个字母的监管机构的规定，这样他们才能——我也不确定正确的说法是什么。

But, like, our our our the conclusion that we came down to is, like, somebody in the vault vertical needs to take the liability and become registered and compliant with, you know, the three letter agencies, four letter letter agencies so that they can, you know I don't know what the correct term is.

也许赫斯特在她的论文里提到过，比如投资经理之类的角色。

Maybe Hester had it in the in her her paper just like investment manager or whatever.

但必须有人承担起受监管的职责，这样整个体系才能更合规，风险也能得到管理，同时这些人也能获得更多收益，让整个规模扩大一百倍。

But somebody needs to take on a regulated duty so that this thing can be a little bit more compliant and the risk is managed, but then these people are taking more upside so this whole thing can grow a 100 times bigger.

这大概就是我的主要收获。

That was kinda, like, my takeaway.

我觉得这个想法挺有意思的。

I think that's a that's a an interesting thought.

我认为基本上有三个不同的角色。

I think there are basically three different actors.

分别是分销方、管理方和基础设施方。

You have the distributor, the curator, and the infrastructure.

对吧？

Right?

而且，你把金库基础设施和市场基础设施分开来看。

And the the Vault infrastructure and the market infrastructure as you separate those.

你知道，作为Morpho，我觉得我们的责任是提供安全、经过审计的代码等等。

You know, as Morpho, I think we think of our responsibility as, like, we wanna provide code that is, you know, safe and and, you know, audited and etcetera.

同时，我们也想为策展人提供一个受控的环境。

And, also, we wanna provide a controlled environment for the curator.

比如，Morpho金库不能存入其他金库。

Like, for example, a Morpho Vault can't deposit into other vaults.

Morpho金库只能存入Morpho市场，这保证了用户，我们的责任就是保证用户：金库策展人只能在时间锁期限内添加Morpho市场。

A Morpho Vault can only deposit into Morpho markets, and it guarantees the user and the responsibility that we have is that guarantees the user that Vault Curator can only add Morpho markets within the period of a time lock.

在这个时间锁期间，重要的是要明白用户可以撤资。

And during that time lock, it's important to understand that users can withdraw.

无论是稳定币——如果金库有流动性——还是以实物形式持有的头寸。

Whether the Stablecoins, if the vault is liquid, or the position in kind.