汇总：大卫出售了他的ETH | EF撤离 | Hyperliquid突破 | 滞胀担忧

那当然了。

Of course he did.

我专门查过这事儿。

I read up on it.

没错。

Yes.

那当然了。

Of course he did.

那当然了。

Course he did.

但别因为这个就对解锁持悲观态度，对吧？

But don't let that be a reason you're bearish with unlocks, right?

因为这事儿是慢慢发生的。

Because that happens over time.

那眼下这一周，我们到底有什么进展？

And the here and now, we got what on the week?

这一周价格上涨了47%？

A 47% increase in price in the week?

是的。

Yeah.

三十天内涨了4047%。

4047% increase over thirty days.

上周涨了40%。

40% increase in the last week.

过去一周，Hyperliquid的势头特别强劲。

There has been particular momentum behind Hyperliquid in the last week.

我们稍后再聊这个。

We'll talk about that in a second.

Zcash 这周也涨了25%，快逼近历史高点了，虽然还没到，但已经非常接近了。

Zcash up 25% as well this week knocking on all time highs, not quite at all time highs, but knocking on all time highs.

熊市里还能创新高？

All time highs in a bear market?

我还以为比特币会带头呢。

I thought Bitcoin was supposed to lead.

是的。

Yeah.

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

最近一些山寨币出现了独立的走势。

There has been idiosyncratic moves down market coins.

没错，确实还没看到明确的新高，但实际情况就是这样，而且还有Venice、VVV，那个基于Base的私有AI推理应用，也创了新高。

Yeah, you're right, we don't really see firm all time highs, but we are, that's what we are, and also Venice, VVV, the private AI inference application on base, also new all time highs.

这我觉得不太对。

That's not so to me.

我知道我们待会儿要细聊Hyperliquid，但很明显，这属于永续合约的行情，现在是合约季，就像IPO、股票市场一样，不完全和加密货币同步，对吧？

So, I I could I know we're gonna talk about Hyperliquid more, but obviously that's some kind of perps, it's perps season, IPOs, you get stocks, it's it's kind of not necessarily purely correlated to crypto, right?

还有Venice，它属于AI赛道，最近势头不错，私有AI做得相当出色。

And then you got Venice, which is part of the AI trade, and picking up traction, and pretty amazing private AI.

Zcash才是真正独特的一个，因为它本质上是个山寨币。

Zcash is the truly idiosyncratic thing, because it is a quote unquote altcoin.

它确实是个替代性加密货币。

It literally is an alternative

确实是山寨币。

is literally an altcoin.

相对于比特币而言。

To Bitcoin.

是的。

Yes.

明白了。

Okay.

它本质上就是比特币的分叉。

It's literally a fork of Bitcoin.

不，不是这样的。

No, it's not.

对。

Yeah.

它不是分叉。

It's not a fork.

是的。

Yeah.

不，它根本不是比特币的分叉。

No, it's it's not a fork of Bitcoin.

是的，它是。

Yes, is.

什么？

What?

是的。

Yeah.

老兄，这它是个

Dude, it's a it's a

2100万的硬顶上限。

21,000,000 hard cap.

不，我知道。

No, I know

他们确实分叉了供应量之类的，但并不是说根本没分叉。

they fork the supply and such, but it's not like they didn't actually fork.

这是代码库的分叉。

It's a code base fork.

等等，什么？

Wait, what?

他们分叉了，这确实是个分叉？

They forked the the it's actually a fork?

是的，不过我对这个不太清楚。

Yeah, no, I don't know about that.

这并不是一个区块链分叉。

It's not it's not a blockchain fork.

但他们拿比特币的代码库做了分叉，从而创建了Zcash。

But they took the Bitcoin code base and they forked it to make Zcash.

我知道他们确实分叉了供应机制和一些其他东西。

I know they forked obviously the supply schedule and some

那些细节是分叉了，但整个代码库都是如此。

of those details, but the whole code base.

我的意思是，这其实很清楚。

I mean, it's all pretty sure.

所以你是很确定的。

So you're pretty

大卫，这事儿你可以查证一下。

sure a fact check David.

好吧，我们接下来要

Okay, we're gonna have

我们再回到这个话题。

to come back to this.

你不是刚做过一期关于Zcash的播客吗？

Didn't you just do a podcast episode on Zcash?

是的。

Yes.

我这些信息就是从那期节目里来的。

Which is where I got this from.

真的吗？

Oh, really?

明白了。

Okay.

那可能我确实有点落伍了。

Well, maybe I'm out of the loop then quite possibly.

Zcash是比特币的分叉吗？

Is Zcash a fork of Bitcoin?

是的。

Yes.

Zcash 是从比特币代码库分叉出来的，2016 年上线的。

Zcash is a fork of the Bitcoin code base and launched in 2016.

它是在原始比特币核心软件的基础上修改而来，加入了更强的隐私保护功能。

It was developed by taking the original Bitcoin core software and altering it to introduce enhanced privacy features.

没错，它确实是比特币的分叉。

Yeah, it's a fork of Bitcoin.

我刚知道这个。

I just found that out.

对。

Yeah.

他们做了分叉，然后加了零知识证明。

And so they forked it, and then they added the ZK

得继续听 Bankless 那些人的节目。

Gotta keep on listening to bankless suits.

是的。

Yeah.

我想是的。

I guess I do.

好吧。

Alright.

所以我的意思是，这才是真正独特的地方。

So that I guess my point is that is the truly idiosyncratic thing.

是的。

Yeah.

在熊市里，本来不该有哪个山寨币表现得这么突出的。

Like, it's not supposed to happen in a bear market that some altcoin is like, drastically outperforming.

你有没有看过Zcash对比比特币的汇率走势？

Actually, have you looked at the Zcash, Bitcoin Zcash ratio, the pair here?

那肯定创了历史新高。

Oh, that's gotta be at all time highs.

这肯定没错。

It's gotta be right.

这肯定是历史新高。

It's gotta be at all time highs.

有人去查一下就能看到。

Somebody can go look at that even close.

你觉得这意味着什么？

What do think that means?

这也是为什么Venice现在这么火。

Well, this is also why Venice is pumping.

隐私币现在正流行。

Privacy is in right now.

你还能看到Railgun，这是以太坊上一个更小众的隐私项目，还有Veil，这是Base链上另一个小众的隐私产品。

You also see Railgun, which is a more niche privacy project on Ethereum, and also Veil, a more niche privacy product on base.

这些代币的表现也都很好。

All those tokens are also doing well.

现在隐私特别火，兄弟。

Privacy is in, dude.

现在隐私真的很火。

Privacy is in.

那太好了。

Well, that's great.

我很高兴隐私这么受欢迎。

I'm very glad it's in.

它确实得火起来。

It needs to be in.

我们需要更多的隐私保护。

We need more privacy.

大卫，接下来还有更多热点话题。

David, we got more on hype coming up.

还有别的吗？

What else?

等我们聊完Hyperliquid的势头，接下来就谈即将到来的、可能是史上最大、最重磅的IPO季。

After we're done talking about the Hyperliquid momentum, we'll talk about the incoming potentially biggest, most historic IPO season ever.

这周SpaceX已经提交了申请，OpenAI也快了，后面还有更多公司等着呢。

We got SpaceX who filed this week, OpenAI on the cusp of filing, and then there are even more after that.

之后我们会聊Wintermute进入资金库的事，还有SEC之前透露过的代币化证券框架。

And then we're gonna talk about Wintermute getting into vaults and the SEC framework that got teased about tokenized securities.

这些我们都会聊，还有更多内容，不过先来听一下赞助商的广告，正是他们让这个节目成为可能。

We're gonna talk about all of this and more, but first, a message from these sponsors that make this show possible.

交易正在改变，不是慢慢变，是现在就在变。

Trading is changing, not gradually, right now.

OKX刚刚在App里直接推出了交易机器人。

OKX just launched trading bots directly inside the OKX app.

网格交易、定投、套利，你设好策略，它就24小时自动执行。

Grid trading, DCA, arbitrage, you set your strategy once and it executes around the clock.

不用整天盯着图表，不用手动下单，睡着了也不会错过机会。

No staring at charts all day, no manual entries, no missing moves while you're asleep.

这是第一次，自动化交易真的变得简单了。

And for the first time, automated trading actually feels simple.

但OKX的野心不止于交易本身。

But OKX is thinking bigger than just trading.

他们还推出了代理支付协议，这是一个开放标准，让AI代理可以直接在链上完成完整的商业交易。

They also launched the Agent Payments Protocol, an open standard that lets AI agents execute full commercial transactions on chain.

以太坊基金会、Uniswap和AWS都已经在基于这个协议开发了。

The Ethereum Foundation, Uniswap, and AWS are already building on it.

现在，这项服务已经在美国正式上线了。

Now it's live inside The United States.

新用户只要存入资金并进行交易，就可通过Bankless链接领取最高500美元的比特币。

New users who deposit and trade can get up to $500 in Bitcoin through the bankless link.

更多详情请查看节目笔记中的链接。

The link is in the show notes to learn more.

这不是投资建议，纽约和德克萨斯州用户暂不可用。

Not investment advice, not available in New York or Texas.

下个月你最期待的是什么？

What's something you're actually looking forward to next month?

因为Coinbase最近在搞点新花样。

Because Coinbase is doing something interesting.

Coinbase ONE会员月活动，首年享八折，新用户在前30天内用Coinbase ONE卡消费满100美元，还能额外获得50美元比特币奖励。

Coinbase ONE member month starts with 20% off your first year of Coinbase ONE, plus a $50 Bitcoin bonus when you spend a $100 with a new Coinbase ONE card in your first thirty days.

整个月份还会陆续推出更多奖励和专属福利。

They're also layering in extra rewards and perks throughout the month.

如果你平时经常玩加密货币，Coinbase ONE简直就是为你量身打造的。

And if you're active in crypto, Coinbase ONE is basically designed for you.

你可以享受数千种加密资产的零交易费、USDC年化3.5%的收益、更高的质押和借贷回报，用Coinbase ONE卡消费还能最高返4%的比特币。

You get zero trading fees on thousands of crypto assets, 3.5% APY on USDC, and boosted staking and lending rewards, and up to 4% Bitcoin back with the COINBASE ONE card.

所以如果你打算试试，现在赶紧下手，趁周奖励还没开始，先把首年八折优惠锁定。

So if you're going to try it, now is the time to lock in that 20% discount before the weekly rewards kick off.

马上去 coinbase.com/banklist 开启你的会员月，首年立减20%。

Start your month of more with 20% off the first year of your annual plan at coinbase.com/banklist.

就是 coinbase.com/banklist。

That's coinbase.com/banklist.

现在就去 coinbase.com/banklist，享受首年八折优惠。

Visit coinbase.com/banklist to get 20% off of the first year of your annual plan today.

优惠截止到5月31日。

Offers are valid until May 31.

条款适用，Coinbase One 卡由 Coinbase Inc. 提供。

Terms apply, Coinbase one card is offered through Coinbase Inc.

以及 Cardless Inc.。

And Cardless Inc.

卡片由 First Electronic Bank 发行。

Card issued by First Electronic Bank.

比特币返现比例基于您在 Coinbase 的资产情况。

Bitcoin backed rates are based on cardholder assets on Coinbase.

本月上涨了47%。

Up 47% on the month.

为什么热度这么高？

Why is hype so strong?

这是Hyperliquid发的一条推文，说它不是个加密货币应用，而是一个超级应用。

Here's a tweet from Hyperliquid is not a crypto app, it's a super app.

它瞄准的不是三万亿美元的加密市场，而是六十万亿美元的全球资产市场。

It's not targeting the $3,000,000,000,000 crypto economy, it's targeting the $600,000,000,000,000 global asset market.

所有的万亿加起来就是这个数。

That's all the trillions.

我觉得他所说的总潜在市场，其实涵盖了几乎所有领域，投资者把它当成了一个东西，但其实它指的是另一个。

I think that's the TAM He of just about everything, said investors are valuing it as one thing, it's the other.

他指的那个‘另一个’。

The other, he means.

哪个数字更大？

What's the bigger number?

更大的那个数字？对，就是那个。

The bigger number, yeah, it's the Yeah.

更大的那个

Bigger

而且Bitwise对这波热潮相当看好。

And and this is Bitwise is pretty bullish on hype on the week.

之前Bitwise有新闻吧？

There was some Bitwise news, right?

是的，他们上周推出了HyperliquidETF，我们简单提过。

Yeah, they they launched their Hyperliquid ETF last week, we covered that briefly.

他们从这个ETF里拿10%的手续费，然后用这笔钱去买热度，直接记在Bitwise的资产负债表上，也就是Bitwise的金库。

They're taking 10% of the fees from that ETF, and they are just buying hype with it and holding it on the Bitwise balance sheet, just Bitwise treasury.

这其实是个表态，一个市场宣传，而Hyperliquid社区显然特别喜欢这种做法。

So just an alignment statement, a marketing statement from Bitwise that I've obviously the Hyperliquid community really, really likes.

目前只有两只ETF。

There's only two ETFs.

Bitwise有一只，另一只属于21Shares。

Bitwise has one and then 21 shares has the other.

刚开始的交易量就不错，看来已经成功渗透到传统金融圈了。

They are doing some pretty okay volumes for to to start, And so it's definitely penetrating into the trad fi circles pretty well.

瑞安，你关注这个账号吗？

Ryan, do you follow this account?

Geiger Capital？

Geiger capital?

我见过 Geiger Capital 的内容，

I've seen Geiger capital,

通常是用梗图或者图表的形式出现。

usually meme in meme form or some chart.

他是个对传统金融挺有了解的 FinTwit 投资者，但真正厉害的是他做的金融梗图。

It's decently well informed trad fi kind of FinTwit investor, but really his strengths are FinTwit memes.

他发过一条关于 Hyperliquid 的推文。

And he tweeted out Hyperliquid.

这是我第一次看到他提到 Hyperliquid。

First time I've seen him tweet about anything about Hyperliquid.

这个人简直就是FinTwit里专门发Hyperliquid表情包的那号人物。

And this person is just like the meme guy of all of FinTwit tweeting out Hyperliquid.

那为什么呢？

Now, why?

到底是什么原因让这么多人关注这个？

Why is it where is this attention coming from?

首先得说，Hyperliquid上的现实资产交易量已经突破了60%，它真正在服务实体经济。

First it's worth noting that real world asset volume on Hyperliquid is breaching 60% and so it's servicing the normal economy.

它服务的是马特·霍根说的那60万亿美元的市场。

It's servicing that $600,000,000,000,000 that Matt Hogan said.

它还支持比特币永续合约、Solana永续合约、以太坊永续合约、狗狗币永续合约。

It's also got, you know, Bitcoin perps, Solana perps, Ether perps, Dogecoin perps.

该有的主流品种它都有，不过——

It's got all the normal stuff, but

真不是一般的主流品种。

Normal really stuff.

我们这边的常规产品。

Our normal stuff.

我们的常规产品怎么样？

How our normal stuff?

对。

Yeah.

但Hyperliquid的增长其实主要来自现实世界资产。

But really like the growth of Hyperliquid has come from just real world assets.

它推出了原油市场，还与标准普尔500指数官方合作上线了标普500产品。

It launched oil markets, it launched the S and P five hundred with a real partnership with the actual S and P five hundred.

几个月前黄金白银热潮期间，它也上线了黄金和白银交易，那会儿交易量主要就来自这里。

They launched gold and silver during their gold and silver mania of a couple months ago, and that's where the dominant volume has come on.

而最近几周推动它爆发式增长的新亮点，是那些Pre-IPO股票。

And now the new thing, the thing that has pushed a ton of momentum into it in the last couple weeks is the pre IPO stonks.

因为这些产品 elsewhere根本找不到。

Because you can't get these anywhere.

因为这些股票 elsewhere 都买不到。

Because you can't get these anywhere.

所以在IPO文件公布前，像XYZ这样的股票已经成为Hyperliquid上交易量最大的品种。

And so ahead of IPO filings, really this is trade XYZ, is the dominant market deployer on Hyperliquid.

他们搭建了IPO前的交易市场，让投资者能提前买卖，这就是为什么你能在Hyperliquid上提前交易SpaceX——这是史上最受关注、规模最大的IPO。

They create a pre IPO market and allow people to trade it, which is why you can trade SpaceX on Hyperliquid ahead of the IPO, which is the most hyped IPO, the biggest IPO in history.

正因为提供了传统金融领域根本没有的服务，Hyperliquid才开始引起传统金融界的注意。

And so Hyperliquid is getting noticed by TradFi by doing a service that TradFi doesn't have.

这为平台带来了巨大的增长动力。

And so it's getting us momentum.

它还为这些资产提供了定价参考，毕竟我们根本不清楚它们的真实价值。

It's also a source for price discovery for these assets where we don't really know where they're valued.

上次估值还是在某一轮私募融资时定的。

I mean, the last valuation was some sort of private round.

没错。

Right.

那时候信息挺模糊的。

They were somewhat opaque.

对吧？

Right?

现在，像一些全球最大的公司，还有即将上市的企业，它们的价格发现反而先在这里发生了。

And now price discovery for some of the world's largest companies, and these companies that are getting ready to IPO, is happening first.

在哪？

Where?

在Hyperliquid上。所以这里的价格发现是20美元，4.07美元，

On Hyperliquid So in this that's price discovery 20 $4.07,

在加密货币的基础设施上，交易那些其他地方根本找不到的资产。

on crypto rails for assets that just aren't available anywhere else.

Hyperliquid社区里有人发了一条推文，讲的是Cerebris，一下子火了。

There was a tweet that rocketed around the Hyperliquid community of somebody doing the Cerebris.

上周有一家Nvidia的竞争对手上市了。

There was the IPO that happened last week, the Nvidia competitor.

哦，对啊。

Oh, right.

我们之前聊过这个。

We talked about this.

没错。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

然后在华尔街交易大厅里，有个人来自这家公司的——我不太确定自己念得对不对。

And somebody there was a like, on the Wall Street Trading Floor, there was somebody from this I don't know if I'm pronouncing the company right.

但Cerebris公司的人发消息说：‘恭喜啊，你们团队真棒！’，他们身后全是电脑，屏幕上清清楚楚显示着Hyperliquid的界面，真没想到。

But the Cerebris company was like, yo, congratulations, you like the Ceribris team, and they had computers in the background and there was very clearly the Hyperliquid interface Oh, wow.

就在华尔街的交易大厅里。

On the Trading Floor of Wall Street.

是的。

Yeah.

所以人们都在用 Hyperliquid 来查看和确定价格。

And so you know people are using Hyperliquid to determine prices, to look at prices.

而且这个——

And this

SpaceX 上周，我记得是，正式向美国证交会提交了 S-1 招股说明书，为上市做准备。

is SpaceX, last week I believe, officially filed their S one registration statement with the SEC ahead of this IPO.

他们的年收入大约是50亿美元，但目前在 Hyperliquid 上的估值，已经超过了1.8万亿美元，差不多是这个数吧？

Their revenue is about $5,000,000,000, but the value of this, the current value in Hyperliquid, is it like north of 1,800,000,000,000, something like this?

我本来还以为 IPO 的定价就是这个水平。

I mean, that's what I thought the IPO price was.

差不多是1.7万亿美元左右吧。

It's like 1,700,000,000,000 or something.

对，就是这样。

That's the okay.

对。

Yeah.

明白了。

Okay.

所以我其实挺好奇的，一直在想这件事。

So I I was kind of curious, because I was thinking about this.

Hyperliquid 推出了一种叫 SpaceX 的资产，其实就是对标 SpaceX 的价格表现。

With Hyperliquid, they're releasing an asset called SpaceX, it's SpaceX price exposure.

这明显是个合成产品，属于某种永续合约。

You're definitely this is a synthetic, so this is a perpetual of some kind.

你要是买了这个，根本不是在持有 SpaceX 的股权。

You you definitely don't if you buy this, you you don't own SpaceX equity.

清楚吧？

Okay?

你不是股东。

Not an equity holder.

对。

Right.

但你确实有价格敞口。

But you do have price exposure.

不过问题是，去看看Hyperliquid上其他永续合约是怎么做的。

But the question is, follow the other perps on Hyperliquid.

对吧？

Right?

比特币有现货价格。

Bitcoin has spot price.

以太坊也有现货价格。

ETH has spot price.

它们都依赖某个现货价格的预言机作为参考。

There's all some sort of reference spot price Oracle to refer to.

如果SpaceX根本没有现货市场，那怎么确定它的价格参考点呢？

How do you get a reference point for the price of SpaceX if there's no spot market?

它在现实中根本不存在，这东西到底是什么？

It doesn't even exist in the real What is this thing?

你在Hyperliquid上买SpaceX，到底买的是什么？

What are you buying if you buy SpaceX on Hyperliquid?

这正是为什么这是一个创新。

That's exactly why this is an innovation.

这个创新就在于，当没有任何参考物时，你怎么确定价格？

This is an innovation, is that how do you find the price when there is nothing to refer to?

这里有个细微差别：不是Hyperliquid在推出或上架SpaceX，而是像Trade XYZ这样的任何HIP-3部署方在做。

And so just a small nuance, it's not Hyperliquid that's deploying or like listing SpaceX, it's trade XYZ or any HIP three deployer.

也就是说，这是Hyperliquid平台上的一家第三方服务商。

So it's like a third party who's a service provider on Hyperliquid.

他们只是去做一些基本的尽职调查。

And so they just go and they do a little bit of due diligence.

他们会看SpaceX最近一轮融资的估值，查阅一些文件，比如409A报告和二级市场报价。

They look at the last funding round of SpaceX, how much that was valued at, they look at some some documentation, four zero nine a's, the secondary bids.

然后他们大概估一估，感觉差不多值17亿美元吧。

They kind of like, you know, lick their fingers, stick it up in the air and be like, seems about 1,700,000,000.

所以我们选一个看起来合理的数字作为锚点， traders 就围绕这个价格交易。当期货价格偏离这个锚点时，利息就会升高；但 Hyperliquid 和预售 IPO 平台会控制这种偏离的幅度，因为它们希望价格能适度偏离锚点——这才是价格发现的过程。

And so we'll pick a number that seems correct, and then that's the anchor number, that's the reference number, and then traders can trade around that number, and as perps work, if that number dis if the price that traders are trading around that number dislocates the yields, the interest rates go up, but they Hyperliquid and the pre market IPO platforms, they dampen the volatility or the severity of the yields if it dislocates too far because they want it to dislocate away from the anchor price because that's that is the price discovery.

这跟比特币、以太坊这些有明确预言机的资产完全不同，在那些市场里，多空双方的利息完全由两边的仓位比例决定。

And so this is in contrast to Bitcoin, Ether, or anything with an actual known oracle where the interest rate, the yields paid by the people going long and short are set off by how many people are going long and short.

如果一方过度占优，利息就会飙升得很高。

And so the yields can get really high if it's too one-sided.

但这里的利息水平一直保持在可控范围内，这样才能让价格发现顺利进行。

The yields, the interest rates that's charged to traders stays pretty manageable, which allows for the price discovery.

在正式上市之前，交易者可以自由地围绕这个由市场部署方设定的任意价格波动。

And so this is all before the actual IPO, actual moment, traders are free to push the price around this arbitrary number set in stone by whoever is deploying the market.

但到了上市那一刻，就像《夺宝奇兵》里的场景一样——真正的锚点价格会被瞬间替换。

But then there is the moment of the IPO, And then that is when kind of like the Indiana Jones things happen where they hot swap, the actual anchor price.

之前的那个随意设定的数字，就直接作废了。

So the former anchor price, the arbitrary number is just discarded.

取而代之的是真实交易中的股票价格，由预言机提供，市场也重新回归到更传统的永续合约模式。

And then now an actual Oracle price of the actually trading equity takes over, and then it kind of resumes being a normally, more traditional perpetual.

我刚才讲清楚了吗？

Did I explain that okay?

讲得很清楚了。

You did, yeah.

在IPO之前，这个参考价格是由Hyperliquid设定的。

And so there's a before IPO, it's kind of this this reference number set by Hyperliquid.

IPO之后，现货市场就变成了真正的定价基准。

After IPO, the spot market becomes kind of the reference oracle.

只要流动性足够，而Hyperliquid已经证明它确实足够，那么围绕这个基准的价格就会非常接近实际市场对该资产的定价。

And the pricing around that, provided you have enough liquidity and Hyperliquid has shown that it does, seems to be pretty close, pretty accurate to what the actual market would price these things at.

整个机制其实比纸上谈兵时想象的要有效得多，因为——

It all works, I guess, better than you you think it would, like, work on on paper, because it's Yeah.

因为在IPO之前，根本没人真正在交易，直到他们开始围绕一个真实的价格基准交易。

It's because there's literally trading nothing before the IPO, and then they're trading around an Oracle price.

你表面上是在交易空无一物，但实际上你是在交易某种东西。

You're trading nothing, but you are trading something.

你交易的是投资者对这次IPO的需求和供给。

You're trading what investors demand and supply for that IPO.

所以你实际上是在为这个资产找到市场价格。

So you're effectively, you're finding a market price for this thing.

对。

Yeah.

这就是为什么整个机制能行得通。

That's why it all works.

但未来，这个机制还会继续发挥作用，确实如此。

But then also there, the mechanism of in the future, it will be That's right.

其实还有一些

There's some

信任是建立在预言机上的，这样你才能确信最终会顺利结算。

trust Anchored to the Oracle so that you know that it will settle.

这简直令人难以置信。

It's actually incredible.

我觉得布拉德·菲看到这个，肯定在想：天啊，我们怎么就没早点想到呢。

And I think Brad Fi is probably looking at this and be like, Oh, shoot, we should have thought of that.

真的呢，

Like,

我们确实得向以太坊上的Lighter平台致敬，

we do have to give a tip of the hat to lighter lighter the purpose platform on Ethereum.

他们两周前就上线了SpaceX的交易。

They actually listed SpaceX two weeks ago.

真的吗？

Oh, they did?

是啊，他们在这方面可领先太多了。

Yeah, they were way ahead of the curve here.

其实呢，

Well, actually,

Hyperliquid不也一样吗？

so did Hyperliquid, right?

从那以后就一直可用了吧。

It's been available since.

不对，Hyperliquid 是前几天才刚上线的。

No, Hyperliquid just launched it like a couple of days ago.

原来如此。

Okay.

Lighter Lighter 比他们早了整整两周。

Light lighter beat them by like two weeks.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这太棒了。

I mean, it's fantastic.

我们在加密领域确实一直在创新。

We're we're innovating here in crypto.

大卫，让我特别感慨的是，这正是我们长期以来在去中心化金融里一直期待的那些原始理念。

What's so striking to me about this too, David, is this is some of the original things we've been excited about in DeFi for a long time.

这些事情正在发生在那些并非在这里诞生的平台和应用之外。

It's happening outside of the platforms and the apps that were originated here.

但这讲的是凯恩·沃里克的合成资产。

But this is like Kane Warwick synthetics.

它有原始版的合成资产。

It has OG Synthetics.

有原始版的。

Has OG

是的。

Yeah.

我们处在一种不同的监管环境下，显然这种做法是被允许的。

It just, like, we're in a different regulatory regime where apparently this is okay.

现在我们有了扩展的能力，也有用户需求的支持。

Now we have the ability to scale this, we have the kind of user demand.

我觉得，很多时候，把这类事情做对，关键就在于时机。

Strikes me that it's so much about, sometimes getting these things right is so much about timing.

没错。

Totally.

要让这件事成真，得先有完整的基础设施和监管体系。

You need all of the prerequisite infrastructure and regulatory apparatus in order to make the thing happen.

但合成物这个想法其实早就有了。

But the idea like has been around Synthetics for like was early.

合成物，是的。

Synthetics, yeah.

合成物早就出现了。

Synthetics was early.

那就是SpaceX的IPO。

So that's the SpaceX IPO.

这又将是史上规模最大的IPO，高达17亿美元。

Again, going to be the biggest IPO of all time, 1,700,000,000.

他们一上来就想融资大约1.7万亿美元。

They're trying to raise something like $1,700,000,000,000 out of the gate.

它已经注定要跻身前十甚至前二十名的公司了，简直不可思议。

It's already gonna be like a top top 10, top 20 company, which is just wild.

有个有趣的事，瑞安，你知道SpaceX持有近一万九千枚比特币吗？

Fun fact, Ryan, did you know SpaceX holds almost 19,000 Bitcoin?

我不知道。

I didn't.

天哪。

Wow.

我知道特斯拉有。

I knew Tesla did.

看来埃隆旗下的公司账上都少不了点比特币。

Guess all Elon companies a little bit of Bitcoin in the balance sheet.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我其实也不知道SpaceX是怎么弄到这么多比特币的。

I actually don't know how SpaceX got so much Bitcoin.

这比特币数量真不少。

That's a lot of Bitcoin.

这可是13亿美元的比特币。

That's $1,300,000,000 of Bitcoin.

哦，确实。

Oh, yeah.

这比特币数量真不少。

That's a lot of Bitcoin.

这数量简直太夸张了。

That's lot lot.

我的意思是，还没到迈克尔·塞拉那样的级别。

I mean, we're not talking Michael Saylor levels.

不过这可能是比特币领域第二大持仓了。

That's probably the the second largest debt though for Bitcoin.

对吧？

Right?

老兄，还有比这更多的比特币。

Dude, more Bitcoin than that.

差不多就是这个数。

Something like that.

是的。

Yeah.

但话说回来，不只是SpaceX，还有OpenAI。

But then, okay, so it's not just SpaceX, it's also OpenAI.

据说OpenAI这周就可能提交IPO申请。

OpenAI is rumored to be filing potentially as early as this week for their IPO.

还有Anthropic这些公司也紧随其后，所以人们才说这是史上规模最大的IPO季，这也让Hyperliquid的布局特别有优势。

And then also, you know, just Anthropic and other companies are just shortly thereafter, which why people are calling it the most historic IPO season of all time just in terms of size, which is why Hyperliquid's positioning here is particularly strong.

另外，瑞安，这周SEC还暗示即将出台关于交易代币化证券或数字证券的框架。

Adding to the momentum, Ryan, the SEC this week hinted at releasing a framework for trading tokenized or digital versions of securities.

是的，有传言说SEC可能会在本周内，也就是今天或明天，推出针对代币化股票的创新豁免政策。

Yeah, there's a rumor that was leaked somehow, that the SEC is expected to release an innovation exemption for tokenized stocks, potentially as soon as this week, which will be today or tomorrow.

所以我们很快就会听到这方面的消息。

So, we should be hearing about that

SEC现在跟以前完全不一样了，对吧？

a different era of the SEC, right?

对。

Yeah.

以前盖斯勒掌管SEC的时候，你得去参加他的办公时间，他还会对着视频镜头摇手指，说你别干那种事。

Like, with Gensler's SEC, you would have had, you know, office hours with Gary Post, where he would have a video wagging his finger at you and saying Don't that

别买那些非法的。

don't buy those illegal

像SpaceX这种，根本就不是正经产品。

SpaceX, you know, like Those aren't real.

产品。

Products.

那不是真正的东西。

It's not the real thing.

只有在SEC监管的交易市场上，你才能拿到真正的资产。

Like, you can only get the real thing from an SEC regulated Yeah.

交易平台之类的。

Trading market, whatever.

对。

Uh-huh.

现在，SEC的态度变得开放多了，甚至可以说是在鼓励，而不是阻止这种自由市场的探索。

And now, the SEC is much more embracing, almost encouraging, certainly not preventing some of this free market discovery.

大卫，关于Wintermute最近也有点新闻，他们开启了金库。

David, there was some news about Wintermute as well, opening vaults.

金库这个概念挺重要的，我觉得。

The vault theme is a pretty big deal, I think.

是在Morpho上。

Is on Morpho.

给我们讲讲这个。

Tell us about this.

是的。

Yeah.

去年年底我们请了Bitwise的马特·霍根来做年度预测节目时，他们就预测过 Vaults 会很重要。

When we had Matt Hogan from Bitwise on the end of last year to do a predictions episode, this is one of their big predictions was vaults.

这会变得非常关键吗？

Are we going to become a very big deal?

Wintermute，可能是加密领域最大的做市商，现在进入了一个全新的业务领域——DeFi金库精选服务，他们已经在Morpho上推出了两个金库，分别是USDC Prime和USD Select。

Wintermute, probably crypto's biggest market maker, are is getting into a new line of business, brand new line of business, a new DeFi vault curation business, they have two vaults that they are, deploying on Morpho USDC Prime and USD Select.

这代表了两种不同的风险偏好。

This is just two different levels of risk appetite.

一个比较保守，Prime的目标收益率是4%到5%，而Select更激进，目标是5%到8%。

One's less aggressive, prime is less aggressive at four to 5% is our target and select is more aggressive at five to eight percent.

很明显。

Obvious.

更激进一些。

More aggressive.

我可不为那8%的收益拿我的USDC去冒险。

I'm not here for 8% yield on my USDC dude.

等你有超激进的方案时，叫醒大卫。

Wake wake David up when you have ultra aggressive

两位数的收益。

Double digits.

明白了。

Okay.

不过对你这种保守型投资者来说，这倒是不错的选择，而且这是基于USDC的产品。

Anyway, it's great for less aggressive investors than you, and this is on USCC, so it's a stable coin type product.

对。

Yes.

没错。

Yes.

是的

Yeah.

没错

That's right.

没错

That's right.

对

Yeah.

有意思的是，他们是在 Morpho 上做的，对吧？

So, what's interesting about this is they're doing it in Morpho, right?

所以看起来这些公司，这并不是 Wintermute 本身，而是一个子公司？

So, it seems to be these companies, this is not exactly Wintermute, it's it's what a a subsidiary?

不是

No.

不过今天我们要推出 Armitage，所以他们是用另一个品牌在操作，我想。

Well, today we're launching Armitage, so they're doing this under a separate brand, I suppose.

但他们把所有的做市经验和风险管理能力都用到了这些金库上。

But they're bringing all of their market making expertise and risk management skills to these vaults.

所以，这不像随便把稳定币丢进一个你不了解、或者由某种治理机制管理的金库，而是明显看到专业人士在接管金库的管理、责任和风险，还带着自己的品牌背书。

So, rather than just, you know, throw stablecoins into a vault from somebody who you don't know or is part of some governance form or something else, it very much feels like professionals taking over the management and the accountability and the risk with a brand name of these vaults.

对吧？

Right?

今年早些时候，Bitwise 就已经做过类似的事，推出了自己的 Bitwise 金库。

So Bitwise did this earlier in the year with a Bitwise vault.

这是一份新闻稿。

This is a press release.

Bitwise 在 Morpho 上推出了非托管金库的精选服务。

Bitwise expands on chain solutions with non custodial vault curation also on Morpho.

他们的年化收益率是 6%。

Theirs was a 6% APY.

他们背后有一整个团队，专门负责风险管理，你可以放心，这些人已经仔细评估过金库里的资金流向和收益来源。

They have a whole team around this, a whole risk management team that you can just be like, these guys have looked at what's going in the vault, how the yield is generated.

这打的是Bitwise的品牌。

It's got the Bitwise brand name.

我们在这上面做得非常严谨，每一个细节都到位，所以你自然会信任它——因为Bitwise的品牌已经押在上面了。

We're doing this we're dotting all the the i's and crossing all the t's, and so this is implied, something you can trust, because it's the Bitwise brand is being staked on it.

我喜欢这种模式。

I like that model.

是个不错的模式。

A cool model.

它本质上还是个智能合约，但有风险团队的声誉背书，让你能放心一点，不至于把钱扔进一个连收益来源都不清楚的东西里。

It's still a smart contract, but there's some reputational skin in the game from risk managers so that you have a bit of assurance that you're not just, like, chucking your money into something that who knows where the yield is coming from.

对吧？

Right?

比如某个DeFi农场，随时可能被黑或者跑路。

Some, like, DeFi farm somewhere that's gonna get hacked or gonna get rugged.

这些项目背后都有专业团队在把关。

The professionals are on the scenes with these faults.

我认为，Bitwise 现在管理的资产已经达到了一千五百亿美元。

And I think, Bitwise, now they're 15,000,000,000 in assets under management.

老实说，他们已经是一家规模不小、正在快速崛起的金融公司了。

So, they're a pretty large and upcoming financial company, quite honestly.

你觉得黑石要多久才会跟进？

How soon like, how long until BlackRock does this?

富达呢？

Or Fidelity?

我觉得马特·霍根说得一点都没错。

Like, all of the the fit I think Matt Hogan is exactly right.

这确实是个重大的举动。

Like, this is a big move.

我觉得今年和明年，资金库会变得特别重要。

I think vaults are gonna be a big deal this year and then into the next year.

我很高兴看到去中心化金融越来越成熟、越来越复杂。

Well, I enjoy seeing DeFi evolve and get more sophisticated and mature.

我总觉得有点难过，因为AAVE和一些元老级DeFi平台上的黑客事件，跟这些由法律实体管理的金融结构化产品之间，差距实在太大了。

I can't help to feel a little bit sad because the juxtaposition between the hacks on AAVE and DeFi native stuff in some of the OG DeFi platforms, the juxtaposition between that and then these legal entity managed financial structured products.

这中间确实有一道鸿沟。

There's just there's just a gap there.

你是不是还怀念那些YAM农场啊？

Oh, do you miss do you miss the the yam farms?

你还记得那时候吗？

Do you remember that?

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly

我就是这个意思。

what I was going for.

但我觉得这是另一个话题了。

But I think that's a different topic.

我确实挺怀念那些玉蜀黍的。

I do miss the yams.

那时候你只是把钱投进去，那是什么时候来着？

What was that era where you were just

那时候就是DeFi的夏天。

That like was DeFi summer.

是的。

Yeah.

你只要把稳定币存进某个金库就行。

You would just put your stable coins in some vault.

我们根本不知道收益是从哪儿来的。

We had no idea where the yield was coming from.

年化收益动不动就两位数，有时候甚至三位数，这不就是你想要的吗，大卫？

It was double digits, sometimes triple digits, the way you like it, David.

但是

But

那根本不可持续。

it was not sustainable.

因为原因

Because the reason

就是不可持续，是因为大家在炒作一个叫DMs的代币，这玩意儿压根儿没有任何规划。

why it wasn't sustainable was because people were speculating on a token called DMs, which had no plan whatsoever.

我就举个例子，比如把USDC存进Aave，就像我之前在Lauritian的平台上听Kane Warwick的播客时聊到的那样。

I'm just talking about like, putting USDC and Aave, like people like I was listening to Kane Warwick on his podcast on Lauritian's platform.

他说，我现在把钱投进DeFi，感觉压力好大。

He's like, I feel so stressed out about putting my money into DeFi right now.

全是黑客攻击。

Just hacks.

你刚才说

You're talking

全是黑客攻击，还得面对各种风险。

just hacks just have to get a fair d five risk had the hacking.

是的。

Yeah.

然后我看了一眼Bitwise的金库策略，发现这确实是解决这个问题的一个合理方案。

And then like, I look at Bitwise's vault strategy and they're like, that is a completely valid answer to this problem.

为什么说这是个合理的方案？

Why is it a valid answer?

因为有人承担责任。

Because there's someone with accountability.

有一个具备法律责任的实体在负责。

There's a legal entity with accountability.

这跟那种纯粹的、无银行的、真正的DeFi理念——代码即权威——不太一样。

Not really the bankless, like true DeFi, you know, code not kings philosophy.

所以，这也是为什么我喜欢看到这种趋势在发展。

And so again, why I like I like that this is growing.

我喜欢那些在成长的事物。

I like things that grow.

这明显是行得通的。

This is clearly working.

这显然是一个有效的解决方案。

This is clearly a solution here.

我忍不住觉得，你应该能明白我的意思。

I can't help to feel like, yeah, I think you get what I'm saying.

我懂你的意思，但你也知道，这本质上还是无需许可的，谁都能搭一个出来。

I get what you're saying, but you know what I mean, like, it's still permissionless, anyone can spin this up.

有抵押背书的信誉挺好的，有人能追踪收益来源，给投资者这种保障，也很重要。

It's nice to have stake backed reputation, it's nice to have somebody who's looking where the yields are coming from, and giving investors that that level of assurance.

我不太清楚他们是怎么处理智能合约风险的。

I'm not sure how they're handling smart contract risk.

这可能是个挺有意思的问题。

That might be another funny question.

但在一些大机构，比如富达和贝莱德，真正加入之前，这可能是必须解决的。

But and and that might be required before some of the big, big guys, the Fidelitys and BlackRocks, come aboard.

大卫，特朗普政府现在正在量子计算领域投资二十亿美元。

David, the Trump administration is investing $2,000,000,000 in quantum computing companies right now.

我知道今年我们一直把量子技术当作重点话题，讨论它对所有加密货币——包括比特币——的密码学影响。

I know quantum has been a big theme for us this year as we've talked about the effect of quantum computing on all of our crypto cryptography, including Bitcoin.

现在，特朗普和美国政府正在这个领域投入二十亿美元。

Now Trump, the the US government, is spending 2,000,000,000 in this area.

其中十亿给IBM，另一笔给芯片制造商，还有一些流向了初创公司。

So 1,000,000,000 going to IBM, another to a chipmaker, some to some startups.

顺便问一下，我一直在想，这笔资金是从哪儿来的？

By the way, I was looking at where does this funding come from?

你觉得这笔钱是从哪儿来的？

Where do you think it comes from?

纳税人的钱吧？

Taxpayers?

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

正是如此。

That's right.

这笔钱来自纳税人。

It's from taxpayers.

更准确地说，是拜登2022年的《芯片法案》。

More specifically, it's Biden's twenty twenty two CHIPS Act.

你明白吧？

You know?

特朗普只是把其中一部分重新分配给了量子领域，然后挂上自己的名字。

Trump's kinda allocating some of that and throwing that at quantum and putting his is name on

这在我看来挺讽刺的。

humorous to me.

是的。

Yeah.

你支持这个吗？

Do you support this?

我觉得我们的议程里 somewhere 提到过这是笔拨款。

Like, I think in our agenda somewhere it said this was a grant.

这是一笔投资。

It's an investment.

这是一笔投资。

It's an investment.

这个政府

This government

拥有这些公司。

owns these companies.

持有股份，实实在在的股份。

Own equity and equity.

挺有意思的是，他们用‘补助’这个词，却拿走了股权。

It's an interesting that they use the word grant, but then they get equity.

所以这本质上是一种投资。

And so It's an investment.

对。

Yeah.

他们其实就是投资者，对吧？

They are investors, right?

我们也是投资者，你是美国的纳税人，你也在参与这种投资。

So we are investors, you're a taxpayer in The US, you're an investor doing some of this.

你怎么看这件事？

How do feel about that?

你觉得政府该这么做吗？

You think the government should be doing this?

是的，那这么说，他们的理由到底是什么？

Yeah, so like, what's what's the rationale here?

这是产业政策，对吧？

Industrial policy, right?

产业政策没错，但他说的是白宫实际投资的领域——比如和英特尔合作的半导体、芯片，这些在人工智能领域至关重要，还有矿物，对无人机领域也同样关键。

Industrial policy, but these are the what he is investing in, what the White House has invested in, it's it's semiconductors with Intel, it's chips, critically important in the world of AI, it's minerals, also critically important in the world of drones.

你讲的是以前的投资，不是这个量子项目，就是之前的那些，没错。

You're talking about previous investments, not this quantum one, just previous Yeah,

这根本不是他们第一次、第二次，甚至不是第三次这么做，这已经是第四次了。

this is actually not the first or second or even the third time they've done this, this is the fourth time they've done this.

对。

Yeah.

量子技术只是最新的一个技术领域，政府认为它关乎国家安全，必须投入资金，还要掌握主导权。

And like quantum is just the new tech stack that the government is deeming a national security interest that they need to invest in and also own and govern over.

像关键矿物，他们之前也这么干过。

So critical minerals, they also did this.

现在白宫直接拥有了六家关键矿物公司。

There's six different critical mineral companies that the White House owns now.

还有一家核能公司。

There's a nuclear energy company.

半导体方面，我之前说过，是和英特尔合作的。

There's semiconductors, as I said, with Intel.

特朗普现在对这些事特别上心，

And Trump is like up on his And

他现在支持力度大得惊人。

then he's up so big.

他在这几项上都投入得特别多。

He's like up five He's so big on all of them.

就连所有量子公司，比如IBM，股价都涨了4%，这还是涨得最少的。

Even all of the quantum companies, like IBM is up 4% and that's the one that's up the least.

其他他投资的八家公司，股价涨幅都在7%到10%之间。

Like the other eight companies that he invested in are up between 710%.

所以只要特朗普往这些领域砸钱，它们股价就涨，这很自然，毕竟有政府监管保护，还都是政府控股的。

So like anytime Donald Trump dumps money in these things, these things go up obviously because they have like regulatory protection because they're owned by the government.

从看涨的角度来说，有这么个老板还挺不错的。

It's like as far as being bullish goes, it's a pretty good owner to have.

但问题是，你觉得政府插手企业治理，这事儿你怎么看？

But like, how do I how do you feel about the government politics having corporate governance over

是的。

Yeah.

这位可是个自由意志主义者。

This critical is a libertarian.

对吧？

Right?

这根本不是自由市场。

This is not like free market.

让市场自己去运作不好吗？

Let the free market play out.

这分明是产业政策。

This is industrial policy.

这是在挑选赢家。

This is selecting winners.

这还能叫别的什么，我也说不上来。

This is I don't know what else this is.

这也很可能成为腐败的渠道。

This is also a vector, you know, for corruption, quite possibly.

对吧？

Right?

只要给对的人送点好处。

Give give the right person a bribe.

找到对的门路。

Find the right contact.

他们就会投资你的公司。

They will invest in your company.

大家都得利。

Everyone wins.

当然，这也有一些挑战，还有不少负面的地方。

Like, there's some challenges, there's some like bad sides to it as well.

是的。

Yeah.

这其实就是中国模式的直接体现。

This is basically explicitly the China model.

这就是中国的做法。

This is what China does.

他们实际上掌控了中国境内所有公司，因为他们管着方方面面。

They just, they effectively own all of the companies inside of China just because they govern they govern everything.

所以这看起来有点像那样，而我觉得这可能是个不错的策略，毕竟中国一直占优势。

And so this starts to look a little bit like that, which I I probably is a good play because China's China's been winning.

他们效率很高。

They are efficient.

我不确定这能不能持久。

I don't know if it's the long term.