战略陷入困境与危机——“它现在基本上就是个对冲基金”| 杰夫·多尔曼与马特·沃尔什

目前最有可能的情况是，授权出售这12.5亿枚比特币的行为，会在他实际出手前一直压制着比特币的价格。

The most likely path at this point is that, you know, the authorization to sell the billion and a quarter Bitcoin probably keeps a lid on Bitcoin until he actually sells it.

迟早他得把这些比特币卖了，然后说：好了，这段时间我们真的不玩了。我觉得那时候比特币才会见底，MSTR也一样——当他们终于不再拿出售消息吊市场胃口，真正把现金记在账上，什么都不做的时候。

At some point, he has to sell that and be like, now we are actually done for a while and that's when I think Bitcoin probably bottoms and and and, you know, MSTR probably bottoms as well when they actually finally stop teasing the market with sales and just do it, hold the cash on the balance sheet, and and and do nothing.

我的看法是，过去几周其实有各种资本结构操作可以做。

So, you know, my my stance is that there was all kinds of capital structure trades to do over the last few weeks.

但现在这些操作基本都结束了。

I think it's largely over right now.

至少在短期内，除非再出现什么不必要的失误，或者市场逼着他们做点什么，否则我觉得接下来一段时间，这事儿就会变得特别平淡。

Think, you know, at least for the time being until, you know, another unforced error or the market forces, you know, force something else, I think this is just sort of a boring story for the foreseeable future.

马特，你认同这个说法吗？

Does that resonate with you, Matt?

对。

Yeah.

我觉得他肯定会把这12.5亿美元的比特币卖了，然后接下来六到十二个月按兵不动。

I think clearly what he's going to do is just sell the $1,250,000,000 of Bitcoin and kinda sit tight for six to twelve months.

其实另一个选择是直接卖更多比特币，比如一大笔。

You know, another option here would have been to just sell a much bigger amount of Bitcoin.

如果我是这家公司的董事会成员，我大概会建议直接卖一大块，七万到十万枚比特币左右，就这么干。

That's probably what I would have recommended if I was on board of a company like this is just sell a big chunk, like 75,000 Bitcoin up to 10 a 100,000 Bitcoin, something like that.

这样就能给自己留出很长的缓冲空间。

Give yourself a a huge runway.

当然，另一个选择是干脆不卖，等着比特币价格上涨。

I mean, another option would be to not sell any Bitcoin and just hope the price of Bitcoin goes up.

要是想想现在压着比特币价格的因素，我觉得首先是MicroStrategy的这个问题。

If you think about what's weighing on Bitcoin right now, I think you have the micro strategy question.

然后是利率的大问题，还有量子计算的潜在影响。

I think you have a big interest rate question, and I think you have the quantum question.

那六个月后比特币价格会涨吗？

So will the price of Bitcoin be up in six months?

谁说得准呢。

Who knows?

这谁也说不准，但我也能想象西勒直接赌一把，就盼着六个月后比特币价格能涨上去。

It's anyone's guess, but I could also see Saylor just taking that bet and just hoping that the price of Bitcoin goes up in six months.

对。

Yeah.

做点什么

Doing something

我当然不清楚内情，但我觉得这招不太靠谱。

I obviously I I I don't know this but it doesn't feel like that works to me.

因为西勒是个大玩家，

Like there there's something about seller is a large enough player.

他的策略也是个大动作，

Strategy is a large enough player.

他手上有八十五万个比特币，

He's got 850,000 Bitcoins.

所以你刚才说的那七八万到十万枚的抛售量，对他来说可是相当可观的一笔了。

So sell selling the number that you said, like 70 to a 100,000 Bitcoins is a very meaningful chunk of their Bitcoin holdings.

这等于说赛勒得低头认错。

And it would have to represent sailors just eating some humble pie.

而且这还等于承认，他之前太自信了，把话说得太满。

And to add that it would also like be an admission that like he got over his key tips, he issued a little bit too much stretch.

他确实太冒进了。

He just got too bold.

我觉得这正是市场所期待的。

And I think that's what the market wants.

但要是只卖最少的比特币，只为争取一点喘息时间，指望市场自己反弹，反而会让市场更加困惑。

But the selling the minimum amount of Bitcoin to buy himself like the minimum amount of time in the hopes that the market just goes up, will actually cause the market just to not get clarity.

赛勒还是会陷在亏损里。

Saylor will still be in the hole.

只要他的策略还在影响比特币价格，市场就会觉得：你别唬人了，我就是要逼你把比特币吐出来。

And to whatever degree that strategy is actually determining Bitcoin price, I think the market is just like I'm not I'm calling your bluff, and I'm gonna make you cough up Bitcoin.

只要你不低头认错，不拿出足够多的比特币来平息市场，比特币价格就别想涨。

And I'm not going to Bitcoin price not is not going up until you eat some humble pie and you cough up enough Bitcoin to satisfy the market.

我就是这么想的。

Like, that's kind of my attitude.

其实投资一向如此，市场更能接受坏消息，反而最怕不确定性。

Well, that's a that's a thing that's always been true with investing in general is that the market markets can handle bad news better than they can handle uncertainty.

坏消息来得越快越好，就像新上任的CEO一样。

The faster you get bad news it's like any new CEO that comes into a company.

对吧？

Right?

他们上任后第一件事是什么？

What's the first thing they do?

先把业绩搞得最差，

They just have the worst earnings ever.

把所有问题都推给前任，把坏消息一次性摊牌，然后重新开始。

Blame everything on the on the, you know, outgoing CEO and then get all the bad news out of the way and then start fresh.

对吧？

Right?

你要是老这么制造过剩预期和不确定性，这正是市场最讨厌的。

When you all you do is constantly create an overhang and uncertainty, that's what markets hate the most.

对吧？

Right?

他就是这么做的，而且很可能还会继续这么做，就像你说的，这给比特币带来了压力，也阻碍了他最需要的结果——那就是他退居幕后，让比特币价格上涨。

And that's what he has done, and and will likely continue to do, which which, like you said, is weighing on, you know, Bitcoin and probably prevents the outcome that he needs the most, which is that he is him getting out of the way and Bitcoin going higher.

不过呢，他其实还有另一个选择，一个我们还没聊过的策略，我一年前就提过：他完全可以打造一个加密货币界的伯克希尔·哈撒韦，直接用比特币去收购公司。

But I will say there is a there is another option for him and for strategy, which we haven't discussed yet, which I talked about even a year ago, is that, you know, the he could very easily create the Berkshire Hathaway of crypto and just start making acquisitions with the Bitcoin.

对吧？

Right?

如果比特币真像他说的那样是稀缺资产，而且全球有大批人也这么认为，那就有不少场景下，他可以用比特币收购公司，对方甚至愿意折价接受，就为了拿到比特币。这样一来，他就能在旗下建立起一些能产生现金流的业务，不仅能缓解债务利息压力，还能让公司整体更多元化。

If Bitcoin really is the scarce asset that he's telling everyone it is and that, you know, a a large cohort of the world thinks it is, then there would probably be scenarios where he could buy companies with the Bitcoin where the company would be willing to even take a discount to fair value in order to get the Bitcoin, in which case he can actually build some cash flow generating, entities under his umbrella that not only helps satisfy the dividends and the interest rate on the debt, but also ultimately, you know, diversify the company a little bit more.

老派的MicroStrategy多头可能会说，我们买MSTR可不是为了这个，我们就是要押注比特币的杠杆。

You know, old school micro strategy bull might say that's not why we wanna own MSTR.

但话说回来，他早就把这事儿搞成了一个资本市场对冲基金，叙事早就崩了。

We just wanna own the Bitcoin leverage, but, again, he's already ruined narrative by turning it into a capital markets hedge fund anyway.

所以到这一步，不如干脆彻底点，用你手里的比特币资源真真正正地建一家公司。

So at this point, you might as well go full on, you know, build a real company with the Bitcoin stack that you have.

你看看那些成功的案例，比如银河公司收购那些陷入困境的矿场，做得多好。

You know, you look at some of the success stories, like, look at what Galaxy has done by buying distressed mining assets.

现在银河的股价可能是全球最被低估的，就因为他们把那个濒临破产的比特币矿场，改造成了一座高性能计算和AI数据中心。

And, you know, now the Galaxy stock is probably the most undervalued stock on the planet because of the fact that they own this Bitcoin mine this this distressed Bitcoin mining facility that they turned into an HPC AI data center.

对吧？

Right?

Celsius 也是，破产的时候也这么干过。

Even the Celsius did the same thing, you know, with in bankruptcy.

对吧？

Right?

现在用比特币这一套资源，能做的事儿多着呢，完全能把这变成一家正经公司。

There's all kinds of things they can do with this Bitcoin stack now that could actually turn this into a real company.

不过说实话，我也不确定。

Again, I don't know.

我今天不觉得这事发生的概率很高，但要是我持有MSTR的股票，这正是我最终会追求的方向。

I wouldn't put a high probability on that today, but to me, if I were an MSTR shareholder, that's what I would be ultimately looking for.

我觉得并购这个选项挺有意思。

I think the MNA option's an interesting one.

你是说真的用比特币来支付，还是用普通股来收购这些公司？

And are you suggesting you'd actually pay Bitcoin, or would you acquire these companies with common equity?

我猜如果你能找到一家现金充裕的公司，你更倾向于用普通股收购吧。

Because I assume you'd try to buy them with common equity first if you could find a cash rich company.

是的。

Yeah.

也许吧。

Maybe.

我其实想的是，直接用比特币来买。

I I was thinking actually, use the Bitcoin.

对吧？

Right?

这一点，我们目前还没到那一步，但如果比特币真成了稀缺资产，而有一家公司掌握了全部比特币的百分之四到五，那就会出现一种情况：其他公司会争相抢购这些比特币，哪怕条件不太划算，也愿意用比特币来交易。

That, again, like, we're not there yet, but if Bitcoin truly becomes a scarce asset and one company owns four or 5% of it all, like, there is a world where people would, you know, companies would clamor for that Bitcoin and would might, you know, actually take a less than favorable deal in Bitcoin with Bitcoin as the asset.

不过，你说得对，股票交易的方式也依然存在。

So, know, it's but to your point, you know, doing a stock deal would be there as well.

但最终，你不可能一直是市场上唯一买比特币的人。

But ultimately, you know, that you get to a point where you just can't be the only buyer of Bitcoin in the market.

你总得想别的办法，对吧？

You have to do something else, right?

所以要么去收购其他资产，要么做点别的，或者以某种方式多元化你的业务。

So either go buy some other assets or do something else or diversify the businesses in some way, shape, or form.

而且，因为你一直是比特币的主要买家，也可能成为主要卖家，这就造成了巨大的市场压力。

And, again, you've created this massive overhang by being the Bitcoin buyer and potentially the Bitcoin seller.

得进军其他行业了。

Get into some other businesses.

利用你现有的庞大资本结构和资产负债表，去打造一个真正的实业。

Use that massive capital structure that you have and that massive balance sheet that you have to build a real business.

说到底，杰夫，迈克尔·赛勒和他的策略在构建资本结构方面确实不错，但说到买卖比特币、拿个好价格，他们简直一塌糊涂。

Kind of to your point, Jeff, Saylor and strategy are good, competent at building that capital structure, but they're they're just dog shit traders or dog shit at just like making good execution prices for for Bitcoin.

要是他们根本没这方面的天赋怎么办？

What if they just don't have the talent for that?

他们好像就擅长这一件事，别的事儿都干不好。

Like, they seem to be very good at this one thing and not very good at anything else.

嗯，我记得好像看过说他们有一千名员工。

Well, I I I did you know, I think I read somewhere they have a thousand employees.

那一千个人到底都在干些什么？

Like, what what do those a thousand employees do?

他们只是在做……

Are they just making

一部分是做软件业务，可能还涉及人工智能。

AI Some part of the software business.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

他们确实还有软件业务。

They still have a software business.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得他们在比特币资本市场这边有十到十五名员工。

So I think they have 10 to 15 employees on the Bitcoin capital market side.

对。

Yeah.

其余的人就在做AI社交短视频。

And and rest of them are just making AI social media videos.

说实话，我不清楚他们到底在干什么。

Like, I I don't know what they I don't know what these I don't know what they do.

但你说得对，缺乏这种专业能力，并不意味着不能培养或者收购这种能力。

But, you know, to your point, like, not having that expertise doesn't mean that you can't either develop or acquire that expertise.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，确实如此。

I mean Mhmm.

你得暂时以风险投资的眼光来看待这个问题。

You know, again, this is you have to put your venture hat on for a second.

对吧？

Right?

大多数风险投资人都会在职业生涯中的某个时刻说，我们其实是在押注创始人。

Most venture capital investors will say at some point in their careers, we just bet on the founder.

我们就是相信这个人。

We just bet on the guy.

我们并不完全了解他们的业务，但就是觉得这个人特别出色。

Like, we don't know you know, we just think that that, you know, guy or girl is amazing.

某种程度上，MSTR的股东，或者任何持有其资本结构的人，做的也是同样的事。

Like, in some ways or shape or form, that's what MSTR shareholders or anybody who owns any part of the capital structure they're doing.

他们是在赌西勒，觉得他能想出什么新招来。

They're betting on Saylor, and they think that he's going to come up with something.

但总有一天，他的老办法会用完，那时候他得够谦逊，就像马特之前说的，承认自己已经走不下去了。

But at some point, his playbook runs dry, and he has to be humble enough, as Matt, you know, to use the word Matt said earlier, to basically say, okay, we're now beyond what I can do.

赶紧找些真正厉害的人来接手公司其他部分的运营。

Let me go get some real talent in here to to run other parts of the business.

所以，再说一遍，我并不是说这事儿现在概率很高，但你看看推特上那么多人，用完全错误的事实拼命为MSTR辩护，真是让人无奈。

So, you know, again, I I'm not suggesting that that is a a high probability outcome today, but it is, you know, reading through cryptic Twitter and watching so many people just defend MSTR with with with just blatantly incorrect facts.

你要真想替它辩护，至少得想点有创意的理由吧。

If you're gonna defend it, you know, at least be creative with why you're defending it.

他们明明还有别的路可走，没必要非得牺牲一部分资本结构去保另一部分。

That that there are some other things they can do besides just, you know, killing one part of their capital structure to save another part.

我觉得并购的想法挺有意思的。

I think the MNA idea is a very interesting one.

但你要想想，他具体能为比特币做点什么？他搞了个量子计划，可又好像完全不把量子威胁当回事。

If you think about what he can do for Bitcoin, though, specifically, he has this quantum initiative, but it seems like he's poo pooing the quantum threat in general.

他今天在伦敦的高盛峰会上登台发言了。

He was on stage at the Goldman conference today in London.

他对这个威胁的态度有点轻描淡写。

It was somewhat dismissive of the threat.

我觉得，他真正能为这个宏观资产做的，反而是全力投入、资助量子计算领域的研发，制定比特币核心的路线图，多谈谈这事儿。

I'd actually say that might be the one thing that he could do for the macro asset is to just really lean in and fund some development there, fund some just a roadmap for Bitcoin Core, and just speak more about it.

我觉得，降低这方面的风险，反而可能比并购更直接地改善他的资产负债表，至少短期来看是这样。

I think that being de risked could actually just help his balance sheet in a way that maybe the MNA wouldn't in the short term.

所以。

So

我感觉这件事儿现在处于一种既解决了又没解决的状态——股价已经从低点反弹了17%，但离高点还是差了17%。

I kind of I kinda get the sense that this matter is simultaneously resolved and unresolved in the sense that like, the stretch is trading back up, it's up like 17% from the bottom is still about 17% off from the top.

至少说明情况没继续恶化，MSTR是跌了，但没崩。

So it's like, it's like, of it's not getting worse, at the very least MSTR is down.

不过话说回来，如果他们卖掉12.5亿美元的比特币，还能撑上26个月呢。

But hey, they've got like twenty six months of runway if they sell the 1 and a quarter billion dollars of Bitcoin.

二十六个月的缓冲期，已经算挺长了。

And so at twenty six months of runway is a decent amount of time.

所以这就像一场迟早要发生的车祸。

And so like, it'll it's a car crash in the future.

所以说，这件事既是解决了，又没真正解决。

So it's simultaneously resolved and unresolved.

总觉得这儿没个像样的了结，心里挺不踏实的。

Kind of did just feel very unsatisfied about any sort of, like, local conclusion here.

所以，我也说不好。

So, like, I don't know.

也许故事的下一页，是二十个月后我们再请你们回来，重新聊聊他们到底用了什么招数来化解这个局面。

Maybe the story is I have you guys back on in twenty months and we have this conversation all over again and see what the hell strategy that they've done to mediate this thing.

顺便说一句，很多背负巨额债务的公司都是这样。

This is the case in a lot of companies, by the way, though, that have huge debt loads.

比如iHeartMedia，按他们现在的债务水平，三年后根本不可能继续运营下去。

And so if you take a look at iHeartMedia, for instance, there's no way that business can be a going concern business three years in the future given their debt load.

所以问题就在于他们什么时候会再融资，迟早会有一个强制性的节点出现。

So it's just a matter of when are they going to re finance, and the forcing function will come at some point in the future.

我觉得真正起关键作用的，其实是那些看跌期权。

I think the puts are really what would be the forcing function here.

中间可能还有其他压力点，比如被剔除出指数之类的，但说实话，我觉得这家公司未来六个月不会破产。

There could be other interim forcing functions around getting dropped from indices, something like that, but yeah, I don't see this as this is not a company that's going bankrupt in the next six months.

那里根本不存在什么强制性压力。

There's no forcing function there.

我还想补充一点，你刚才这么一说，恰恰体现了MicroStrategy营销方式的精明与荒谬。

I'd also add that even just the way you described that shows the brilliance and the craziness of the way MicroStrategy markets itself.

你居然把还没发生的12.5亿美元比特币销售，直接算进资产负债表里当现金来用。

The fact that you just included a billion and a quarter of Bitcoin sales that haven't happened yet on their balance sheet as cash to pay daily.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know?

这跟他说‘我们有三十年的股息支付能力’没什么两样。

That's no different than him saying, we have thirty years of dividend coverage.

嗯，如果你大量抛售比特币，那确实会自动计入现金流，因为他们说过可能会这么做，而他也一直这么在做。

Well, yeah, if you sell a ton of Bitcoin, you know, you're just you're just automatically adding that because they said they might do it, which is what he's been doing.

对吧？

Right?

这整个就是一套障眼法，魔术师那一套，他就是靠这些手段让市场相信他资金充足，其实这些操作还没真正发生。

It's all sort of slight of hand slight of hand, you know, magician stuff that he's been doing, you know, just to convince the markets that that that, you know, he's covered in ways that he actually isn't until he actually does these actions.

不过我也觉得，很多人对这家公司的看法太极端了。

But I do think too a lot of people don't a lot of people are talking in extremes with this company.

你看有些研报，比如Benchmark给出500美元的目标价，可又有人断言这家公司马上就要破产归零。

Like, you know, it's gonna go you see some equity reports, like Benchmark coming out with a $500 price target, you know, and then there's someone else who says this thing's going bankrupt and going to zero.

就像马特说的，其实这里既没有特别看多的理由，也没有彻底崩盘的依据。

Like, most likely, as Matt mentioned that I said, like, there is no there's there's no huge bull case here, and there's also no bankruptcy case here.

更可能的情况是，它会像印刷厂或者黄页公司一样，慢慢衰落，持续几十年。

It's most likely just gonna be a slowly kinda melting ice cube for decades, very similar to, like, printing companies or yellow page companies.

对吧？

Right?

如果回溯十五年、二十年前，互联网刚兴起的时候，大家都说黄页、电话簿公司和印刷企业比如R.会完蛋。

If you go back, like, fifteen, twenty years when the Internet first started kinda getting going, everyone started calling for the demise of the yellow pages and the phone book companies and the printing companies like R.

R.

R.

唐纳利这些公司。

Donnelley and all that stuff.

但事实上，这些公司的债务反而是很好的投资标的，因为它们简直就是印钞机。

And instead, the debt was great instruments to own because they these these companies were just cash flow machines.

八十多岁的老人还在用电话簿，还是会去找印刷厂。

Like, 80 year olds still get phone books, you know, and they they still go to, you know, the printers.

这些生意不会一夜之间就消失。

Like, these businesses don't just go away overnight.

除非有某种巨大的外部冲击逼得企业破产，否则很少有行业会突然彻底消亡。

It's very rare to see something just go away overnight unless, again, there's some sort of massive trigger that forces a bankruptcy.

这更像是一块慢慢融化的冰块，眼下你几乎找不到什么真正的看涨理由，除非你只是想说：既然看好这家公司，干脆直接买比特币算了。

This is just gonna be a slow bleed melting ice cube where, you know, you'd be hard pressed to find a real bull case for the stock right now that isn't just, why don't you just buy Bitcoin if you're bullish on the stock?

除非他做出什么极端举动，比如我们提到的，直接砍掉股息，或者大举收购搞并购交易。

Outside of him doing something crazy like we mentioned, which is, you know, the nuclear option of killing the dividends and or, you know, becoming pretty acquisitive in some MNA scenario.

所以短期内，这事儿就只能这么干巴巴地耗着，等有什么新动静了，我们再回来聊新的变化。

So it it's just gonna be kinda dead and boring for a while until something happens, in which case you get us back on and we talk about the new things that are going on there.

市场从来不是只动一个资产。

Markets don't move one asset at a time.

今天是比特币，明天是英伟达，接着是黄金，然后是标普指数。

One day, it's Bitcoin, the next, Nvidia, then gold, and then the S and P.

但大多数交易员还是得在不同平台、不同账户、不同资金池之间来回管理自己的投资。

But most traders are still managing their portfolio across different platforms, different accounts, and different pools of capital.

BITGET 改变了这一切。

BITGET just changed that.

他们新推出的 Stocks 2.0 产品，让你可以直接用 USDT 交易证券代币，全都在你平时用的同一个 App 里完成。

Their new stocks two point o product lets you trade tokenized equities directly with USDT, all inside the same app you already use for crypto.

这可不是又一个普通的代币化股票产品。

This is not just another tokenized stock product.

Stocks 2.0 的设计聚焦于更深的流动性、更快的成交速度，以及市场最低的手续费，仅需0.04%，并且与标的股票实现一对一的收益对应。

Stocks two point o is designed around deeper liquidity, faster execution, and the lowest fees in the market at just point zero four percent and one to one economic exposure to the underlying stock.

股息、拆股以及其他公司行为都会自动反映，确保你的持仓始终与你真正想投资的资产保持一致。

Dividends, stock splits, and other corporate actions are reflected automatically, helping your position stay aligned with the asset you actually want exposure to.

一个平台，一个账户，覆盖多个市场——加密资产、股票、大宗商品等等，全部用USDT就能交易。

One platform, one account, multiple markets, crypto equities, commodities, and more, all accessible with USDT.

BITGET，更聪明的交易方式。

BITGET, trade smarter.

立即通过节目简介里的链接开始交易。

Start trading today through the link in the show notes.

这不是投资建议。

This is not investment advice.

交易正在改变，不是慢慢变，就是现在。

Trading is changing, not gradually, right now.

OKX刚刚在OKX应用内直接推出了交易机器人。

OKX just launched TradingBots directly inside the OKX app.

网格交易、定投、套利，你设好策略后，它就会全天候自动执行。

Grid trading, DCA, arbitrage, you set your strategy once, and it executes around the clock.

不用整天盯着图表，不用手动下单，也不用睡觉时错过机会。

No staring at charts all day, no manual entries, no missing moves while you're asleep.

第一次，自动化交易变得真正简单了。

And for the first time, automated trading actually feels simple.

但OKX的野心不止于交易。

But OKX is thinking bigger than just trading.

他们还推出了代理支付协议，一个开放标准，让AI代理能在链上完成完整的商业交易。

They also launched the agent payments protocol, an open standard that lets AI agents execute full commercial transactions on chain.

以太坊基金会、Uniswap和AWS都已经在使用它，现在它已经在美国上线了。

The Ethereum Foundation, Uniswap, and AWS are already building on it, and now it's live inside The United States.

新用户只要存入并交易，就能通过Bankless链接获得最高500美元的比特币。

And new users who deposit and trade can get up to $500 in Bitcoin through the bankless link.

更多详情请查看节目笔记中的链接。

The link is in the show notes to learn more.

这不是投资建议。

Not investment advice.

纽约和德克萨斯州无法使用。

Not available in New York or Texas.

有个好消息要分享。

Some exciting news.

我们即将推出一档新播客，帮助大家理解加密货币的周期，以及如何应对。

We are launching a new podcast to help people figure out the crypto cycle, how to navigate it.

我认识的最厉害的加密周期投资者，叫迈克尔·纳托。

The best crypto cycle investor I know, his name is Michael Nato.

他运营着《DeFi报告》。

He runs the DEFI REPORT.

就是他，在价格暴跌10:10之前给我发了卖出提醒。

This is the guy that sent me a sell alert before the 10:10 price drop happened.

他的周期分析一直非常精准。

His cycle analysis has been absolutely on point.

我关注他已经有好几年了。

I've been following him for years.

今年我们开始每周录制一期播客。

And this year, we started recording weekly podcast episodes.

每期都会深入分析他的持仓、市场结构、入场点位，以及比特币和以太坊的合理估值，还有我们现在所处的周期阶段。

Each one, we get into his portfolio, what he's holding, the market structure, entry targets, fair market value of Bitcoin and Ether, and where we are in the cycle.

每周三都会更新新一期内容。

There's new episodes that are released every Wednesday.

每期大概三十分钟。

They're thirty minutes.

时长不长。

They're short.

内容紧凑有力。

They're punchy.

我觉得这个加密周期比以往都更难把握，不如我们一起搞清楚。

I think this crypto cycle is harder to navigate than most, so let's do it together.

赶紧去订阅这个播客吧。

Go subscribe to this podcast.

不管你在哪儿听播客——无论是YouTube、Apple、Spotify，还是在节目笔记里找链接，搜索‘DEFI REPORT’就行。

Search the DEFI REPORT wherever you get your podcast, YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or find a link in the show notes.

新一期已经上线了，等你来听。

There's a new episode waiting for you now.

你好，Bankless的朋友们。

Hey, bankless nation.

我是David。

It's David.

如果你听到这段话，说明你正在收听免费的Bankless播客频道。

If you're hearing this, that's because you are listening to the free bankless podcast feed.

你有没有

Did you

知道其实

know that there is a

付费的Bankless RSS订阅吗？

premium bankless RSS feed?

付费订阅包含我为个人研究特别做的额外访谈，是一些更深入的问题，我想搞清楚加密行业里的各种事，这样我才能在Banklist Ventures投资，以及我个人的投资组合中，做出更明智的决定。

The premium feed has extra interviews that I do for my own personal research and just deeper questions that I want answered about the crypto industry, questions that I want to answer so I can be more informed as an investor both at Banklist Ventures and also just in my own personal portfolio too.

而且付费版没有广告，也就是说，如果你选择听付费版而不是免费版，每年能省下大约二十个小时——因为你直接支持了Banklist。

Also, there are no ads, which means if you listen to the premium feed instead of the free feed, you'll get about twenty hours of your life back every year because you choose to support Banklist directly.

所以，如果你想要获得更多内容，同时避开广告的话……

So if you're interested in getting extra content all while skipping the ads

或者你只是欣赏我们所做的事，希望我们能继续做下去，

or you just appreciate what

我们非常感谢你开通Banklist付费服务，详情链接在节目笔记里。

we do here and want us to keep doing it, we'd appreciate it if you signed up for Banklist Premium, and there is a link in the show notes to get started.

祝大家2026年一切顺利。

Cheers to a good 2026.

当然，最有可能发生的情况就是比特币暴涨，这样一来，Sailor Sailor就得救了。

The the thing that could happen, of of course, is that Bitcoin just pumps and, you know, Sailor Sailor is saved.

我之所以难以相信这一点，是因为Saylor在推动比特币看涨情绪上占了太多风头。

The reason why I have trouble seeing that is because Sailor has taken such a large amount of the oxygen out of the room when it comes to being bullish on Bitcoin.

至少到现在为止，我们还没见过谁比Saylor更坚定地大手笔买入比特币。

At least just because we haven't had it, we don't have a larger figure than Saylor being bullish and buying Bitcoin in size.

怎么才能出现比Saylor更大的人物呢？

Like how do you how do you have sailors larger than life?

这其实正是这种策略一半的吸引力所在。

That's kind of half the appeal of strategy.

所以，除非比特币战略储备真的动用税收资金来买比特币，否则Saylor必须有个更大的人站出来买，或者得有个宏观环境、流动性条件，让其他人觉得比特币看涨，而不是只因为Saylor。

And so anything short of like, the Bitcoin strategic reserve deciding to actually take tax money and buy Bitcoin, like, sailor needs somebody bigger than him to come and buy Bitcoin or needs a macro environment or some liquidity environment for other people to say Bitcoin is bullish rather than Saylor.

Saylor一直被推到聚光灯下。

And there's been such a slimelight on Saylor.

‘共谋’这个词听起来有点负面，但他确实把比特币的叙事给占了大半。

And he's just like, co op is kind of a negative word, but he's just co opted a bit of the Bitcoin narrative.

现在一提到比特币，大家想到的就是Saylor，两者几乎成了一回事。

And now it's the sailor narrative, Bitcoin and sailor are kind of the same thing.

他真的需要有人接过大旗，继续推动比特币向前发展，好让他能松一口气，毕竟他一个人根本扛不动这一切。

And he really needs somebody else to take the torch away from him, and carry it forward and push the Bitcoin ball up the hill so he can be saved, because he clearly can't do it all of himself.

所以我对比特币的一个看空理由，甚至不是基于策略，而是因为现在整个叙事都被萨伊尔占了。

And so like one bear case I have for for bit Bitcoin, not even strategy is just that Saylor has the narrative.

比特币持有者和迈克尔·萨伊尔都需要有其他人站出来，比特币才可能真正看涨。

And Bitcoin holders and and Michael Saylor needs somebody else to kind of step in, in order for Bitcoin to be bullish.

因此，我不觉得比特币能单靠萨伊尔这个核心人物，就莫名其妙地重回历史高点。

So I don't really see Bitcoin just magically appreciating back to all time highs with Saylor also being the core figurehead.

马特，你怎么看这个说法？

Matt, what's your response to that?

我部分同意你的观点。

So I agree with part of that.

我的意思是，如果你是个大买家，确实会想清楚微策略接下来会怎么走，毕竟这关系到资金流向。

I mean, I agree that if you're a large buyer of Bitcoin, you probably would wanna have a view on what is going to happen to micro strategy before you step in just from a flows perspective.

所以在短期内，我完全认同这一点。

So in the near term, I completely agree with that.

不过，从比特币的整体宏观逻辑来看，Saylor 其实也明白这一点，对吧？

However, on just the macro thesis for Bitcoin, sailors kinda know part of that, right?

那么，比特币到底是什么？

So what is Bitcoin?

比特币的目标是成为数字黄金这一新兴资产类别中的投资标的。

Bitcoin is competing to be a venture bet on the emergence of digital gold.

它是一种非主权的资产储存方式。

It is a non sovereign store of value.

如果未来几年利率环境有利，我相信比特币会吸引越来越多的人关注，价格也很可能上涨。

If we have a interest rate regime that is favorable over the next few years, I'm sure Bitcoin will become more interesting to a lot more people, and you could definitely see it going up.

如果量子路线图切实可行，并且有明确的执行计划，很多大型投资者的疑虑就会得到解决。

If quantum roadmap is a good roadmap and there's an actual plan there, then I think a lot of the questions from the bigger allocators will be addressed.

我认为，Saylor 在推动市场结构性资金流入方面，不会像以前那样扮演核心角色。

And I don't think Saylor will be as big of a piece of that market in terms of just the structural flows that could come into this market.

不过更大的问题是，Saylor 到底在做什么？

I think the bigger question though is what is Saylor doing then?

如果比特币涨到现在的两倍、三倍，他是不是又在重复同样的套路，五年后我们又在另一个熊市里聊这个？

And so if Bitcoin is double, triple what it is right now, is he just running the same playbook again, and we're having this conversation five years from now in another bear market?

我的意思是，他到底什么时候才会停？

I mean, where does he stop?

他看起来根本不是那种会收手的人。

He doesn't seem to be the type of guy that's gonna stop.

是的。

Yeah.

你觉得他最后还是会陷进去，而且这次的陷阱会更大？

You think he just finds himself back into it just another trap even bigger this time later?

我觉得他目标是持有更多的比特币。

I mean, I think he has ambitions to own a lot more Bitcoin.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这有点像一支球队，有个球员场外麻烦不断，但你其实不一定非得把他交易掉。

I think I think it's, you know, it's probably no similar to, a sports team where, you know, you have one player who's got all these off the field distractions, and it's like, you know, you just wanna you don't necessarily have to cut that player.

你只需要让他们安静一阵子，别再上新闻了。

You just need them to shut up for a while and get out of the press.

说实话，我觉得这对比特币来说反而是最好的结果。

Like, again, I think that's the best outcome for Bitcoin right now.

我既不是比特币的多头，也不是空头。

I'm I'm I'm neither a Bitcoin bull nor a Bitcoin bear.

实际上，我觉得现在比特币相对区块链领域其他东西来说，挺无聊的，待会儿我再细说。

I actually kinda think it's fairly boring asset now relative to a lot of things in blockchain, which I'll get into in a second.

关键是，他们只要别再掺和，别上热搜，别当焦点，让这事自然平息就好。

But, like, the you know, just just getting out of the way, getting out of the press, getting out of the story, just letting this sort of die down.

你想想，他们在毁掉了四千亿企业价值之后，终于做了一件负责任的事——把现金都堆到了资产负债表上。

You know, again, they they they they they finally did something responsible after crushing 40,000,000,000 of enterprise value, which is build up that cash value on the balance sheet.

他们完全可以彻底退居幕后，长时间别再露面。

Like, they can just get out of the way for a long time.

对吧？

Right?

一年到一年半，安静点，让比特币自己发展出一个不靠炒作的叙事，说不定最后反而对它们有利。

A year, year and a half and just sort of be quiet and let Bitcoin develop its own non sailor narrative for a while, which, you know, very well may, you know, develop into something that that helps them.

但你说得对，只要他还是焦点，是核心人物，这对比特币就没好处。而且我还想说，这背后有个讽刺的地方——比特币熊市和赛勒的熊市，恰恰发生在区块链成为当下最热门的投资领域之一的时候，跟人工智能和机器人并驾齐驱。

But, you know, to your point, while he is the main story, while he's the ringleader, it just it's it can't be good for Bitcoin, and I think on top of that, and this is what I was saying about other areas, like, the irony of this sort of Bitcoin bear market and the Saylor bear market is that in a lot of ways, blockchain is one of the hottest investment areas alongside AI and robotics right now.

大多数投资者都会说，他们想找到办法押注区块链的增长，因为 everywhere 都能看到它的身影。

Like, most investors will tell you they want to find a way to get long the growth of blockchain because they're seeing this everywhere.

问题是，区块链的增长其实发生在三个完全不同的领域。

The problem is the growth of blockchain is happening in three distinct areas.

一个是稳定币和支付，今天又有个大新闻，一群金融科技公司和银行正联手参与 O U 那个什么来着？

It's happening in stablecoins and payments, you know, even another huge announcement today about a consortium of fintech companies and banks that are getting involved in in in in in O U what is it?

OSAT，或者在别的支付轨道上推出新的稳定币，跟西联汇款、贝宝这些公司一起在稳定币和支付领域发力。

OSAT or a new stablecoin on different rails alongside, like, you know, your your your Western Unions and PayPal and all the other companies that are doing stuff in stables and payments.

这可是市场里一个巨大的增长点。

So that's a huge growth area for the market.

还有去中心化金融，这个领域也是持续向上，再就是现实资产代币化，几乎每条曲线都在往右上角冲。

DEFI, you know, another area that's just up into the right, and then RWA tokenization, which is just every chart is up into the right.

现在区块链有三个主要的增长领域，但这些跟比特币完全没关系。

There are three main areas of massive growth in blockchain right now that just don't happen to touch Bitcoin in any way, shape, or form.

对吧？

Right?

另一方面，由于比特币之外的发展实在太快，Saylor和比特币现在连参与区块链讨论都变得困难了，更别说还有他那场闹剧般的表演——这真不是好事。我觉得，不管怎样，他都得退场了，好让比特币有机会实现当初大家期待的、那种非主权但像主权资产一样的价值存储角色。

And that's sort of the other part of it is that while Saylor Bitcoin is already struggling right now to even be part of the blockchain discussion given how much is happening outside of Bitcoin and then on top of it, you've got the $Sailor clown show, like it's not good, right, and I think he has to get out of the way one way or another to give Bitcoin at least a chance to fulfill, you know, the role of that kinda, you know, non sovereign sovereign store of value that that that people wanted to be in.

曾经，它看起来是朝着那个方向发展的。

At one point, it looked like it was headed towards.

我不觉得Saylor会安静下来，或者消失。

I'm not bullish on Saylor being quiet and going away.

有些人就是喜欢当主角。

Some people just like to be the main character.

是的。

Yeah.

这确实挺难的。

It's tough.

是的。

Yeah.

他长期以来都是我们最突出、最抢戏的那个人，这个头衔非他莫属。

He's been our biggest and and most main character for a long time now so I think he holds the title for that.

是的。

Yeah.

希望你播客里永远别放《绝地战警》的音乐，Matt，尤其是提到迈克尔·塞勒的时候。

Hopefully, never have to hear the Bad Boys music on your podcast, Matt, when it comes to Michael Saylor.

我也不希望这样。

I hope not too.

我也不希望这样。

I hope not too.

杰夫，你有没有哪个价格会考虑买入Stretch？

Jeff, is there a price you would ever buy Stretch at?

这个得从两个角度来回答。

Well, I'd have to answer that in two ways.

首先，凡事都有个价格，所以答案是肯定的。

Well, first of there's a price for everything, so the answer is yes.

但我和自己掏钱买，和用我们基金的钱买，是两回事。

But, you know, there's a difference between when I put it in my personal account with my own money versus when I put it in our funds.

对。

Mhmm.

你

The you

我先说基金这边。

know, I'll start with the funds.

除非这东西涨到三四十美分，而且你认为马上就要破产了，否则我不会买。

Probably not unless this thing gets to 30 or 40¢ on the dollar and you think that there's some sort of imminent bankruptcy.

风险和回报太不成比例了——你手里这个工具，随时可能取消分红，价格直接掉六十点。

It's just the risk reward is just terrible when, you know, you literally have an instrument that at any moment they could just turn the dividend off, and it just goes down 60 points.

就算我清楚地知道四年之后他们才会这么做，顶多也就是保本而已。

So, you know, even if I had a clear four year horizon before they do that, at best, I'm breaking even.

对吧？

Right?

四年才赚48点分红，结果一停派息，立马跌50点，这太不划算了。

I'm getting, you know, 48 points over four years of dividends to watch the thing fall 50 points as soon as they cut it.

这种基金的风险收益比实在太差了。

That's just bad risk reward for a fund.

不过如果你是用自己的钱投资，愿意承担风险，那情况可能就不一样了。

Now, in your personal account where it's your own money and, you know, you take risks and whatever, maybe that's a different story.

对吧？

Right?

我上周跟团队内部聊过，其实现在价格在七十几的时候，反而是个不错的加仓时机——毕竟我们刚才说的那些诉讼和法律风险，让他短期内根本不敢停派息。

I I actually thought, you know, last week, I was telling people internally, right, you know, in the low seventies, it's actually not a bad time to add because of everything we just said, which is that given all the potential lawsuits, given all the legal risks, there's no way he's cutting the dividend anytime soon.

他必须得撑住这个局面。

He's going to have to kinda support this thing.

所以作为短期交易工具，或者四到五个月的持仓，上周六十几到七十几这个区间，其实并不算差，可以适当小仓位介入。

So as a trading instrument or as a, you know, four, five months, you know, I think in the, you know, sixties and seventies area or even low seventies last week was not a terrible place to nibble.

我对MSTR股票也会这么说。

And I I'd actually say the same thing for the MSTR stock.

如果它跌到净资产的70%到80%，那也是值得入手的区域，毕竟那里有明显的价值。

Like, if it gets to 70 or 80% of them NAV, that's the area you'd wanna buy that stock too, you know, where there's clear value there.

对。

Mhmm.

我们还看到，除了这个策略之外，还有别的东西。

We we've seen there's also beyond strategy.

还有STRiVE，它已经推出了SATA，就是S-A-T-A，跟Stretch非常相似。

There's also STRiVE, and STRiVE has has issued SATA, s a t a, which is very similar to Stretch.

本质上就是策略的一个迷你版，但规模小得多。我心里就想，如果只是一个人在做这件事，自己全权操办，那还说得通。

Basically, a carbon copy of strategies strategy, But as a much smaller carbon copy of strategy, and like over in my mind, I'm like, okay, there's one thing if there's just one guy doing this thing, and he's doing it all of himself.

但要是有第二个人也跟着做，而且这个人还说，‘哦，对啊’，那就不太一样了。

But when there's a second, like, and the second guy is like, oh, yeah.

这说明这事儿真不是偶然，我说的可不是玩笑。

This this is a real again, no pun intended.

这确实是个真正的策略，我也会自己这么做，因为任何人都能做到。

This is a real strategy and I'm gonna do this for myself too because anyone can do this.

我当时就想，说不定比特币爱好者们又要再来一次了。

And I was like, maybe Bitcoiners are just going to do it again.

他们就是能把这事儿给搞成真，人越多，彼此就越容易成功。

They're just going to mean this thing into existence and if there's of them, they all make it more successful for each other.

现在这个时候，Stretch的股价跌了17%，SATA也跌了10%。

Now in this particular moment, both Stretch is trading 17% off, like, SATA's trading 10% off.

看起来状态并不算好。

It's not necessarily looking healthy.

但我一直会想，这背后到底有没有真东西？我的意思是，这个数字资本结构，有普通股、优先股这些安排。

But I will always kind of wonder if like if there is a there there and what I mean by that is like this whole digital capital structure thing with the equity and the the preferred instrument.

这玩意儿真能做成一个长期 viable 的生意吗？

It's like, is this thing a viable long term business?

听你们俩这么说，我感觉你们觉得不行。

I'm hearing from both of you guys that it's not.

但我还是忍不住想，会不会其实这根本就是个天才的点子呢？

But I still kind of wonder if if there's a if there's just a chance out there that this is actually genius.

只要比特币继续遵循四年周期，这两个人买的比特币，早就远远超出了他们靠股权和优先工具能负担的量。

And so long as Bitcoin follows in the four year cycles, like both of these people have bought way more Bitcoin than they could have ever bought because of their, like, equity preferred instrument.

马特，你对这个怎么看？

Matt, what is your reaction to this?

我觉得，这种现象远远不止发生在比特币上。

I mean, I think you can extend that well beyond Bitcoin.

你看看我们现在背了多少债务。

Just look at how many debts we have now.

我们到底有多少？

What do we have?

三十笔债务，都在

30 debts at

还有汤姆·李，他搞了个收益率9.5%的股权优先工具。

And this and Tom Lee, he did an equity preferred instrument at 9.5% yield.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，我能理解为什么有人会推出这些东西。

And so, I mean, I get the reason for people launching these things.

首先，从个人角度看，这些项目的激励机制确实非常诱人。

First of all, there's phenomenal incentives just from a personal perspective.

而且很多这类产品还附带资产管理协议，所以我明白为什么大家会做，我也知道这是杠杆敞口，但我不禁要问：这些东西真有那么吸引人吗？

You have asset management agreements on a lot of these things too, so I get why people are doing them, and I understand that it's levered exposure, but I think there is a question there, Are these things that interesting?

除非它们捆绑了实际的运营业务，否则这些产品最终很可能看起来就像主动管理的对冲基金。

These these will end up probably looking like actively managed hedge funds unless they staple on operating businesses.

如果没有实际的运营业务，我觉得这些东西其实没什么特别的。

So absent an operating business, I just don't think these things are that interesting.

其实我觉得优先股并不是问题所在。

I actually don't think the prefers were the problem.

我觉得，像任何事情一样，不能非黑即白。

I think, like anything, it's not black and white.

关键是要适度。

It's in moderation.

赌博本身不见得是坏事。

Gambling, not necessarily a bad thing.

赌得太多，那就很糟糕了。

Gambling too much, very bad thing.

有一点债务，没什么问题。

Some debt, not a bad thing.

债务太多，那就非常危险。

Too much debt, very bad thing.

其实，持有一些优先股是有道理的。

Like, having some preferreds made sense.

问题在于规模太大了，因为这个人一向以冒险著称，总爱走钢丝。

The the problem was just the size and the scale because, again, this guy is just, you know, known for just flying too close to the sun.

他做的这些事，跟公司的现金流相比，规模实在太过离谱，根本撑不住。

Like, the size and the scale of what he did relative to the cash flows of the business were just untenable.

你刚才提到了Bitmined，对吧？

Whereas, you know, you mentioned Bitmined.

Bitmined自己发行了三亿美元的优先股，跟你是喜欢以太坊还是比特币没关系。

Bitmined just did, I think, a $300,000,000, preferred of their own independent of whether you like ETH versus Bitcoin the asset.

以太坊至少是个能产生价值的资产。

ETH is at least a productive asset.

你可以用以太坊做很多事情。

You can do things with ETH.

你可以把它质押起来。

You can stake it.

也可以借出去。

You can lend it.

实际上是有真实需求的。

There's actually some demand.

比特币就只是个宠物石头。

Bitcoin is a pet rock.

你根本拿它做不了任何事。

You can't do anything with it.

根本没人想借它。

There's no demand to borrow it.

就连那些新兴的看涨期权策略，波动率也已经被压得喘不过气了。

Even, you know, all these call overriding strategies that have come about, like, vol has just gotten crushed.

你几乎没法用比特币产生任何收益。

Like, there's almost no way to generate yield with your Bitcoin.

但以太坊就不一样了，这说明汤姆·李真能每年产生三亿美元的现金流，用来覆盖资产负债表上一小部分优先股。

With your Ether is, which means that he can actually Tom Lee can actually generate $300,000,000 a year of of real cash flows to be able to satisfy a small amount of preferreds on the balance sheet.

这些金融工具本身，你知道的，我记不清具体是从什么时候开始的，优先股和Stretch大概是在九到十八个月前出现的。

So the instruments themselves, you know, again, I don't remember exactly when they started these, preferreds and Stretch specifically, but it was somewhere in the nine to eighteen months.

他刚推出这些产品的时候，根本没人反对。

Like, nobody was up in arms when he started this.

真正让事情走向失控的，是他把规模做得太大了。

It was the size and the scale that he got to that made this, you know, completely teeter in the wrong direction.

马特，杰夫，这次对话真的让我彻底明白了眼前发生的一切。

Matt, Jeff, this has been, immensely helpful for me understanding exactly what's going on.

非常感谢你们来参加节目，帮我理清了思路，也希望给Bankless的听众们带来一些启发。

So I appreciate you guys coming on the show and just providing me some clarity and and hopefully the bankless listeners some clarity.

还有没有哪些关键点是我还没问到的？

Is there any other stone that I haven't unturned, turned over?

你们觉得还有哪些部分值得再深入聊聊？

Any other component of this conversation that you think is worth elevating here?

没有了。

No.

该说的都说了。

Think we covered it.

马特，我每周五都会听你和尼克·卡特的播客。

Matt, I listen to your podcast, every Friday, you and Nick Carter.

Bankless的听众们可能早就知道了，但你还是跟大家介绍一下你的播客吧，大家去哪儿能听到？

Listeners of Bankers probably know that by now, but, tell people about your podcast and where can they go find it.

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

谢谢。

Thank you.

节目叫《On the Brink with Castle Island》。

It's On the Brink with Castle Island.

我们每周五更新一期。

We do an episode every Friday.

聊的是《On the Brink》。

Speaking on the Brink.

这周我们谈的是战略。

Talking about strategy this week.

杰夫，我早就一直在关注你了。

And, Jeff, I've been following you for forever now.

我真的很欣赏你所有的观点。

I I really appreciate all of your takes.

人们在哪里能关注到你呢？

Where can people find you?

对。

Yeah.

在推特或者X上，你可以找到我

On on Twitter or X, you

我的账号是jDorman81，或者访问我们的网站ar.ca，那里每周都会发布一篇博客，叫《That's Our Two Satoshis》，已经持续更新八年了。

can find me at j Dorman eighty one or on our website ar.ca where we put out a weekly blog called That's Our Two Satoshis that I think has been running now for eight years every week.

所以。

So

八年了。

Eight years.

看来我们确实算得上是这个行业的老前辈了。

Man, we are some we are some industry veterans at this point.

马特，杰夫，谢谢你们来参加节目。

Matt, Jeff, thank you guys for coming on the show.

真的非常感谢。

I really appreciate it.

见到你们真好。

Good to see you guys.

太好了。

Great.

谢谢大卫，也很高兴见到你，马特。

Thanks, David, and good to see you, Matt.

Bankless的观众们，你们都懂的。

Bankless nation, you guys know the deal.

加密货币有风险，股权和优先工具也一样。

Crypto is risky, and so are equity preferred instruments.

你投进去的钱有可能亏光。

You can lose what you put in.

但不管怎样，这正是前沿领域。

But nonetheless, this is the frontier.

并不是每个人都适合，很高兴你和我们一起踏上无银行之旅。

It's not for everyone, and we are glad you're with us on the bankless journey.

非常感谢。

Thanks a lot.