摧毁DeFi的EIP | Stani Kulechov & Mike Silagadze

Bankless nation，以太坊领域出了一个新EIP，引发了大量争议和不满。

Bankless nation, there is a new EIP in Ethereum land that has caused much gnashing of teeth.

为了帮我梳理一些新闻并获取一些反应，我请来了Aave的Stani和EtherFi的Mike。

To help me go through some of the news and get some of the reactions, I've got Stani from Aave and Mike from EtherFi.

Stani，Mike，欢迎两位再次来到Bankless。

Stani, Mike, welcome back to Bankless to you both.

谢谢你的邀请。

Thanks for having me.

很高兴见到你。

Great to meet you.

所以这个EIP是关于质押目标的，质押缩减。

So stake targeting is the EIP, stake tapering.

这涉及ETH的发行量。

This is around ETH issuance.

所以这是一场关于ETH货币政策的辩论。

So so it's a ETH monetary policy debate.

现在有一个提案，是来自以太坊基金会那边的六位研究人员和开发者提出的，就是那个EF的象牙塔。

There is a proposal out there from six Ethereum researchers and developers over in EF land, the EF, the ivory tower of the EF.

这个EIP想解决的问题是，目前对于有多少以太币会被质押到以太坊上，没有任何限制。

And the concern in this EIP, the problem that this EIP is trying to address is that there is no constraint on the amount of Ether that will be staked to Ethereum.

所以核心想法就是，质押更多ETH的激励没有上限。

So the the idea is that there's no cap on the incentive to stake more ETH.

现在大约有34%的ETH被质押了，这个EIP担心的是，这个比例会慢慢逼近100%，因为没有什么理由阻止它。

Right now, there is about 34% of all ETH is staked and the worry that this EIP has is that that will slowly march increasingly close to 100% because there's no reason for it not to.

质押的ETH越多，总共发行的以太币也就越多。

There is more Ether issued in sum in total, the more ETH is staked to Ethereum.

他们担心的是，随着这种情况发展，以太坊金融生态中的原生以太币，也就是DeFi生态，会逐渐被质押的ETH衍生品取代。

And the concern here is that with that Vanilla Ether in the Ethereum financial ecosystem, the DeFi ecosystem slowly gets replaced by staked ETH derivatives.

比如Lido的staked ETH，Rocket Pool的rETH，还有Mike这边EtherFi的eETH衍生品。

Things like staked ETH from Lido, R ETH from Rocket Pool, or with Mike, we have, EtherFi's e staked ETH derivative as well.

所以，就没有原生以太币了，正如我们所知，它消失了，变成了衍生品，研究人员担心这会是以太坊生态内的主导均衡状态。

So there's no Ether Vanilla Ether, as we know, it disappears and and turns into the derivatives, and the researchers are concerned about that being the dominant equilibrium inside of the Ethereum ecosystem.

这个EIP还担心以太坊在安全上花了太多钱。

Another concern that this EIP has is that Ethereum is overpaying for security.

我们根本不需要100%的ETH被质押，甚至超过50%都不需要。

We simply don't need 100% of ETH staked or even more than 50%.

这些研究人员认为，大约30%到40%的ETH被质押就已经能提供足够的安全保障了。

Something around 30 to 40% of ETH staked to Ethereum provides ample security according to the opinions of these researchers.

这个提案是上周提出的。

This proposal was introduced last week.

所有人都讨厌它。

Everyone hates it.

我觉得除了EIP内部的人，其他人都讨厌。

I would say everyone outside of the EIP.

连EIP内部的人也有反对的。

Even people inside of EIP.

有人甚至

There are people

对，甚至。

Even yeah.

甚至以太坊基金会内部的一些人。

Even some people inside of the EF.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这就是为什么我邀请了Aave的Stani和EtherFi的Mike来参加节目，听听他们的反应，并让他们表达对这个EIP给他们以及更广泛的DeFi和开发者生态系统带来的问题的看法。

And so that's why I have Stani from Aave and Mike from EtherFi here on the show to get some of their reactions and to elevate their voices about the problems that this EIP creates for them and for the broader DeFi and builder ecosystem.

也许，Stani，我先从你开始，因为Aave比EtherFi早。

Maybe, Stani, I'll just go with you since Aave came before EtherFi.

Stani，你看到以太坊基金会提出这个提案时，你的第一反应是什么？

Stani, what was what was your reaction upon seeing this proposal out of the EF?

你看。

Look.

我觉得这是一个值得评估的有趣话题。

I think it's a you know, it it is an interesting topic to evaluate.

而且你也问到了，我们是否在为安全性付出过高的代价。

And and, you know, you asked the question of whether we're basically paying are we paying sufficient sufficiently overpaying for security?

我觉得这个问题问得非常合理。

And I think that's a really legitimate question to ask.

那是肯定的。

That is for sure.

我认为以太坊一直建立在安全性以及网络和生态系统韧性的理念之上。

I think that Ethereum has been built on security and also on the idea that you have a resilient network and ecosystem.

任何开发者，比如我和Mike，选择以太坊正是因为它提供的这种安全性。

And anyone who is a builder, for example, like me and Mike, are choosing Ethereum because of that security and and what it provides essentially.

而这正是它的核心价值主张。

And and and that is the the sort of, like, a core value proposition.

所以为安全付费是其中很重要的一部分。

So so paying for security is is is big part of that.

我觉得这个提案真正的目标，本质上就是想以某种方式影响以太坊的ETH价格，把它推上去。

I think the the the the real sort of, like, objective of of this proposal is is basically somehow to affect the Etherium the the the ETH price and and get it up.

我知道我们现在处于一个相当低迷的市场，而且已经持续一段时间了。

So I know we're in a in a quite of, like, bearish markets and been for a while.

在这种情形下，我们看到各种提案和想法都在讨论怎么把价格拉上去。

So in this kind of situations, we see various proposals and ideas floating around about, you know, how do we get the price up?

而这个提案，它围绕的机制是关于发行量，特别是质押方面，降低质押者的收益，这样就能减少发行量，让以太坊作为资产更有吸引力、价格更好。

And and this is this proposal, while it's sort of things like while it's the mechanisms are around that it's taking and whether it should be capped and and the issuance, particularly on on the on the staking and reducing the yields that stakers are getting, And and that way influence that's there is less issuance and and better pricing, better appealing better appeal for Ethereum as an asset.

但我认为这个提案的实际后果并不会达到那个目标。

And I think that's what are the actual consequences of the proposal aren't actually achieving that.

首先，它真的会摧毁单独质押的概念，因为减少了单独质押者的现金流，还会带来非常不可预测的税务后果。

First of all, it really destroys the concept of solo staking because it reduces the cash flows for solo stakers, creates also very unpredictable tax consequences.

所以，问题是如果某人因为质押收到一张500美元的账单，他们甚至可能变成负收益。

So, you know and the question is then if someone gets a $500 bill for staking, they can even go into negative as well.

所以这真的减少了个人质押的机会。

So it really reduces the opportunity to come as a sole staker.

然后第二个大问题是机构方面。

And then the second biggest issue there is the institutional side.

显然，机构想要可预测性。

So, obviously, institutions want predictability.

他们想要现金流部分，尤其是在构建金融产品和分销时。

They want a cash flow component, especially when they're building financial products and and distribution.

这也是很多机构进入的关键原因之一，因为他们有这部分。

And and this is one of the key areas why a lot of institutions come in because they have this component there.

第三，非常重要的一点是DeFi。

And third, really important is is DeFi.

以太坊是建立在DeFi轨道上的。

So Ethereum is built on DeFi rails.

无论EF现在承认与否，这都是事实。

Whether EF wants to acknowledge that now or never, that is the real fact.

以太坊上所有成功的东西都跟DeFi有关。

Everything that is on Ethereum that is successful is about DeFi.

这完全没问题，因为以太坊真正能做的就是彻底取代金融体系，并建立在以太坊提供安全性的弹性轨道上。

And that is totally fine because, you know, what Ethereum can really do is replace the financial system in in in in overall and and and build on resilience resilient rails that Ether provides the security.

而且有很多人争论说，如果我们降低质押的收益率，你可以去Aave和DeFi这些地方获取收益。

And and there's a lot of argumentation that if we reduce the yield on on on its staking, you can go to places like Aave and DeFi and, you know, get yield there.

但实际上，很多这样的收益都是基于以太坊质押的。

But a lot of this yield is actually being based on Ethereum staking.

如果ETH在DeFi上没有收益，那意味着ETH作为一种资产变成了融资腿。

And if there is no yield on on ETH, on DeFi, what it means is that ETH as an asset becomes a funding leg.

那么融资腿到底是什么意思呢？基本上就是当你做套息交易时，你想借入一种便宜的资产。

So what does what is a funding leg actually means is is basically when you do a carry trade, you wanna borrow a cheap asset.

一旦你借入它，你就卖掉这个资产，换成一种能产生收益的资产，然后你就可以靠那个资产赚钱。

Once you borrow that, you sell the asset to actually to an asset that can be productive, and then you can you can basically earn on that asset.

一个非常大的例子就是世界上最大的套息交易——日元套息交易。

And and a really big example is the biggest carry trade in the world, which is the Japanese yen carry trade.

所以日本经济在过去几十年里一直不太景气。

So Japanese economy hasn't been doing well for the past decades.

日元利率非常低，甚至接近于零。

Yen has a very low or zero interest rate.

所以这种套利交易通常的做法就是借入日元，然后用它来换成另一种能够产生现金流的资产。

So what typically is is done in this carry trade is basically yen is borrowed just just to replace with another leg that actually creates cash flow.

这就是当你降低以太坊作为资产的生产力，同时降低收益率时会出现的情况。

So this is the sort of element that comes when you reduce the productivity of it it as an asset and and also by reducing the yield.

关于这个过程，我心里其实有不少想法，还有其他一些相关的事情。

And those are sort of my there's a bunch of things about the the the process and and whatnot.

所以，我觉得这个话题本身很重要，但后果对单独质押者、机构以及那些真正在构建以太坊生态的DeFi项目来说，都是极其不利的。

So, like, I think the question of this whole topic is important, but I think the consequences are ex extremely negative for solo stakers, institutions, and DeFi that that that actually build the the the Ethereum house.

Mike，作为EtherFi在以太坊这边的代表，你看到这个提案时，最让你警惕的点是什么？

Mike, from the EtherFi sector of Ethereum, what were the biggest flags that were raised in your eyes when you saw this proposal?

说实话，我觉得每个方面都挺让人无语的。

Man, honestly, like, every aspect of it, I thought was was kinda frustrating.

首先，这个提案是在讨论纳入下一次硬分叉的会议前几天才提出的。

You know, first of all, it was proposed with, you know, a matter of days leading up to the meeting where where these proposals were discussed for inclusion in in the next hard fork.

所以，虽然我知道关于为什么这么晚提交肯定有各种理由，但这确实给人留下了不好的印象，让人觉得它想在没有太多讨论的情况下被硬塞进去，结果反而适得其反。

And so I you know, when I'm sure there's all kinds of arguments about why, you know, why it came in so late, but it just it certainly didn't create a good impression that this thing was it created the impression this thing was trying to get sort of squeezed in without without much debate, which, you know, in fact, had the opposite effect as a as a result.

所以这让人很沮丧。

So so that was frustrating.

很多人都对此感到沮丧。

A lot of people were frustrated by by that.

另外一点，Stani 你也提到了，就是它以一种奇怪的方式被包装成对 solo staker 有利，但实际上这直接伤害了 solo staker。

The other part of it was and, Stani, you alluded to this, is that it was, in a bizarre way, proposed as a way to benefit solo stakers when very straightforwardly this hurts solo stakers.

Solo staker 是以太坊上的独立节点运营者，他们在家运行自己的小节点，因为规模不经济，所以成本基础最高。

Solo stakers are individual node operators on Ethereum who are running their own little node, you know, at home, they have the highest cost basis because there there's no economies of scale.

他们有自己的机器。

They have they have their own machine.

他们有自己的网络连接。

They have their own Internet connection.

你知道，2.5%的收益率，2%的收益率，基本上就是目前运营节点的盈亏平衡点。

You know, a two and a half percent yield, 2% yield is is pretty much breakeven at this point in terms of the cost of operating a note.

所以如果发行量下降，当然这个提案会这样，所有独立质押者都会亏损。

So if the issuance goes down, which of course it it would with this proposal, all solo stakers go into a loss.

所以对我来说，这真的只是天真的想法，认为所有这些成千上万运行节点的人都会无私地继续运行，即使他们在亏钱。

And so to me, I mean, it it just really represents magical thinking to believe that all of these thousands of people who are currently running nodes are just gonna altruistically keep doing it even when they're losing money on it.

我是说，有些人也许会，但显然，很大一部分人不会。

I mean, some people maybe will, but, like, self evidently, a large proportion of them will not.

事实上，最近ETH staker做的一项调查显示，大多数独立质押者的保留价格是2%。

In fact, there was a survey fairly recently by done by ETH staker that showed that the sort of reserve price for most solar stakers is 2%.

他们说，你可以相信他们的话，或者你也可以，嗯，想象他们在撒谎，我猜。

And they they say, I mean, that you take them at their word or you can, you know, imagine that they're they're lying, I guess.

但大多数独立质押者说，如果收益率低于2%，他们就会关闭节点。

But most solo stakers say that, you know, if it drops below 2%, they turn off their notes.

所以至少让我们看看这里的一阶效应，然后说，看。

So at least let's look at the first order effects here and say, look.

这会让网络变得中心化，因为像Coinbase、币安、SharpLink这样的大型实体，

This is gonna centralize the network because anti large entities like COINBASE, Binance, SharpLink,

还有，

and,

你知道，比特大陆，他们没有资金成本。

you know, BITMINE, they have no cost of capital.

对吧？

Right?

用户把资金存入他们的交易所，存入那些债务里。

Users are depositing into their exchanges, into the, you know, the debts.

以太坊就在那里。

The ETH is just there.

即使收益率只有20个基点，他们还是会质押。

If the yield is 20 basis points, they'll still stake.

所以基本上会看到独立的小型运营商大量退出。

So you're gonna have basically an exodus from independent smaller operators.

流动性质押代币会迅速集中到一个巨大的单一代币上，因为当收益率只有20或50个基点时，你只能赚到1个基点的收入，所以你必须拥有巨大的规模，才能覆盖支付给开发者和审计人员的费用，让这件事变得有意义。

LSTs will immediately concentrate into one giant LST, liquid staking tokens, because at 20 basis points, 50 basis points, you're only making one basis point of of revenue, and so you need massive scale for it to make any sense to pay developers and auditors and and all that.

所以这会导致高度的中心化。

So this is it's hugely centralizing.

这一点看起来是不言自明的。

That that seems self evident.

我觉得对很多人来说，这也是显而易见的。

I think it's self evident to to a lot of people.

所以，看到提案里说这能帮到去中心化，我觉得这种说法挺奇怪的。

So seeing the the argument from the proposal being that this will help send you know, decentralization is just, like, kinda kinda bizarre.

另一方面，流动性质押代币提供的服务不仅仅是帮你做质押中介。

The the other aspect of it is that liquid staking tokens provide more of a service than just, you know, intermediating staking you.

流动性质押服务提供了一些用户保护机制，这些在协议层可能不合适，但在应用层就完全合理了。

Liquid staking service provide user protections that would be inappropriate to provide at the network level, but totally makes sense at the application level.

比如，万一朝鲜突然决定或者实施攻击，偷走了 EtherFi 大量流动性质押的代币，我们还有选择进行分叉的余地。

Like, if North Korea all of a sudden decides to or executes an attack that steals like a, you know, giant chunk of EtherFi's liquid stake teeth, we have the option to do a fork.

说实话，我觉得我们走正规的治理流程然后去救回那些资金，是完全合理的。

And that would be frankly totally reasonable, I think, for for us to do the proper governance process and then rescue that.

在网络层面，你不会这么做，还有其他类似的保护措施。

You would not do that you know at the network level and other protections along those lines.

所以流动性质押代币在ETH和用户之间提供了一个应用层，对吧，就是人们实际使用的那层。

So liquid staking tokens provide an application layer between right, you know, ETH and users, you know, they they eat that people actually use.

你看看传统金融市场的衍生品市场，它的规模是现货市场的十倍以上。

If you look at the TradFi markets, the market for derivatives is 10 times more more than 10 times the size of the market for spot.

所以不管你在哪个世界里，如果以太坊成为所有金融的平台，那么所有的ETH都会进入衍生品市场。

So whatever universe you live in, if Ethereum becomes the, you know, the platform for all of finance, all ETH is gonna be in derivatives.

这就是现实，没办法。

Like, that that that's just that that's just the reality of it.

所以这个论点说我们应该限制流动性质押代币吸收ETH的能力，因为这会减少ETH被困在衍生品中的数量

So this argument that we should reduce, you know, the ability of liquid staking tokens to, you know, to to pull in ETH because it'll reduce, you know, the amount of ETH stuck in derivatives.

我觉得这完全是个误导，因为不管怎样，那都会发生。

I mean, it's just it's a red herring because it's like that's gonna happen anyway.

不管是Aave，还是A ETH，还是别的什么。

Whether it's gonna be Aave, you know, A ETH or whatever else.

就像，当你付钱的时候，比如你在商店买东西，你一般不会直接给现金。

Like, all the like, when you pay money to to, you know, when you buy some groceries at a store, you're not generally giving them like a hard, you know, hard cash.

对吧？

Right?

你给的是银行的信用，而那是基于部分准备金的。

You're giving them a credit from your bank, which is based on a fraction of reserve.

不过，是的。

But we yeah.

这些我们可以再讨论。

We can argue about all that.

但关键是，现实经济中的所有交易都是通过各种金融衍生品来完成的。

But the point is all transactions in the real economy happen using various financial derivatives.

如果以太坊成为一个真正的经济系统，这里也会是这样。

If Ethereum becomes a real economic system, that's gonna be the case here too.

再说最后一点，在真实经济中，固定货币供应量是非常糟糕的。

And again, last point, in a real economy, having a fixed money supply is really bad.

没有任何经济学家，没有严肃的经济学家会说，是的，你应该有一个永远不变的固定货币供应量。

There are no economists, no serious economists that would say, yeah, you should have a fixed money supply that never changes.

对吧？

Right?

然后以米尔顿·弗里德曼的观点为例，他认为货币供应量应该每年固定增长3%。

And then Milton Friedman's perspective to take one one example is that their money supply should just grow at a fixed amount of 3% per year.

这是一种观点。

Like, that's one one argument.

否则，就会出现通缩，这在某些方面其实比通胀更糟糕。

Because otherwise, you have deflation, which in in some ways is actually worse than inflation.

货币供应量需要随着经济增长而增长。

The money supply needs to grow as the economy grows.

所以，那种认为以太坊在某个时候必须零发行的说法，真的是一个很糟糕的观点。

So this argument that we need to have zero issuance in sub at some point is a really bad argument.

这就像一种比特币的思维病毒，在现实世界里根本说不通。

It's it's like a Bitcoin brain worm that actually makes makes no sense in the in the real world.

所以，回到我一开始说的，这件事的方方面面都挺让人头疼，因为完全没道理。

So, again, going back to what I said initially, like, every aspect of this is sort of frustrating because none of it actually makes any sense.

某种程度上，我能理解以太坊基金会或者研究人员想解决的一些问题，但肯定有更好的解决办法。

In some ways, I can sympathize with some of the problems that are, you know, the the the, you know, EF or, I guess, the the the researchers are trying to solve, but there's better ways to solve them.

我的观点是，我以前也说过，我们应该直接把LST（流动性质押代币）写进协议里。

My perspective is and I've argued this in the past is that we should just enshrine LSTs.

这就把 EtherFi 和 Leidos 排除在外了。

And that that kicks EtherFi is taking Leidos taking out of the picture.

直接搞一个被正式认可的 LST，解决他们那些让人担心的问题。

Just have an enshrined LST that solves some of the issues that, you know, they have, you know, concerns about.

在我看来，这比去乱动发行曲线、导致 DeFi 崩盘并引发各种副作用的做法要好得多。

And that's a better solution in my mind than, you know, fucking with the issuance curve in a way that's gonna blow up DeFi and have all kinds of other externalities.

对我来说，我现在最想深入探讨的，就是你刚才最后说的那点。

To me, the biggest argument that I would like to delve dive into now is what you just said at the end.

它会把 DeFi 搞崩的。

It was gonna blow up DeFi.

我想了解一下，如果这个提案通过了，DeFi 会发生什么？

I'd like to understand if this proposal were to go through, what would happen in DeFi?

如果质押率达到 50% 的目标，导致收益归零，那第二、第三甚至第四层级的连锁反应会是什么？毕竟我们已经有足够的安全保障，所以要把所有收益都销毁掉。

What what are the second, third, fourth order consequences of a potentially zero yield because, like, staking hits the target at 50%, and so we're burning all of the yield because we have ample security.

这就是如果这个 EIP 通过，将会产生的影响。

That's the effect that would go in if this EIP were to go through.

但本质上，当质押率接近50%时，收益率会趋近于零。

But essentially, yield approaches zero as stake teeth approaches 50%.

迈克，如果这个提案实施，DeFi领域会发生什么连锁反应？

Mike, what would happen in DeFi as a repercussion of this proposal?

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，排名前10的DeFi协议中，有7个会面临大规模的资本外流。

I mean, the seven of the top 10 DeFi protocols would face a massive capital exodus.

所以我的意思是，那对我来说就像是摧毁DeFi。

So that's I mean, so that don't know if that that blow that to me is seems like that's blowing up DeFi.

所以所有大型DeFi协议都停止了，你知道，DeFi活动。

So all the big DeFi protocols stop, you know, DeFi ing.

你知道，这可能是个不太完美的类比，但想象一下美国政府说，好吧，我们要改变国债的发行曲线。

You know, it would be imperfect analogy, but imagine the US government said, okay, we're gonna change the issuance curve on t bills.

如果太多人持有国债，你知道，我们会突然开始缩减利率，或者让购买更多国债变得不可能。

If too many people, you know, are holding t bills, we're gonna, you know, suddenly start tapering the the rate or making it impossible to, you know, to buy more t bills.

你知道，就像短期债券提供了基础收益层，然后有上百层的衍生品构建在上面。

You know, like, low short term bonds provide the sort of foundational yield layer and there's, you know, a 100 layers of derivatives that are, you know, then built on top of that.

如果你动摇了那个基础收益层，不管你认为国债收益是太高还是太低，或者你认为这个收益率是太高还是太低，如果你动摇了这个基础收益层，而很多其他东西都堆叠在上面，我的意思是，你真的会破坏整个系统。

If you mess with that foundational yield layer, whatever you think about whether t bills are paying too much or too little or if taking you this too higher or too low, If you're messing with this foundational yield layer on top of which a lot of other things are stacked, I mean, you're gonna you're gonna really break the system.

所以你真的需要认真思考，是的，ETH上1.5%的通胀到底有多大的问题？

And so you really have to think hard about, yeah, how much of a problem is a, you know, one and a half percent, you know, inflation on ETH?

再说一次，那是我们忽略了燃烧的部分。

And again, that that's a we're we're ignoring the burn.

对吧？

Right?

因为有了EIP-1559，会有销毁，所以实际上会低于1.5%。

Because with EIP one five five nine, there there is burn, so it's actually gonna be lower than 1.5%.

但假设销毁归零，有1亿个ETH被质押。

But let's say burn goes to zero, a 100 of ETH is staked.

1.5%的收益率算多大问题呢？

How much of a problem is 1.5% yield?

我觉得实际上收益率应该更高，而不是更低，这个论点更有说服力。

I think the case is actually stronger that the yield should be higher than that it should be lower.

原因就是我之前说的，你确实需要货币供应量扩张。

As I for for the reason that I articulated that you actually need the money supply to expand.

如果货币供应量不扩张，反而会引发各种其他问题，因为如果ETH是通缩的，你就不想把它作为债务持有。

And if it doesn't expand, it actually creates all kinds of other problems because you don't wanna hold ETH as debt if it's deflationary.

你懂吧？

You know?

所以这确实让ETH作为货币变得很难用。

So it actually makes it hard to use ETH as as money.

那样的话，我不会主张提高收益率。

In that case, I wouldn't argue for increasing the yield.

我主张别去动它。

I argue for not fucking with it.

这就是我的立场。

That's my that's my position.

Stani，Stani，你对哪部分有共鸣？

Stani Stani, what what resonates with you there?

对。

Yeah.

就是，我觉得对于DeFi协议来说，DeFi协议对各种资产和用例都是中立的。

It it's it's sort of it's I I I think for DeFi protocols, DeFi protocols are agnostic to different assets and and and, obviously, use cases.

所以资产会变，但Mike说的确实指出了，这真的削弱了它作为资产的生产力。

So assets will change, but it it does point out what Mike basically said is that it really removes the pro productivity around it as an asset.

所以如果没有收益部分，你在DeFi里就得不到那个收益，除非你往风险曲线上走得很高。

So if you don't have the yield component, you won't have that yield component in DeFi unless you go high up on the risk curve.

所以这基本上就是提案者们提出的最大论点：就是说，咱们直接削减发行量吧。

So this is the the the basically, the the the biggest argument that actually the orders of the proposals the proposal are making is that, you know, let's just let's just cut the cut the issuance.

我们把它封顶。

We cap it.

不再发行。

No more issuance.

收益基本上会一路降到零。

Yield goes down all the way to to zero, basically.

然后，他们的论点是人们会在DeFi里找到收益，但实际上这不是一回事，因为提案者们没有真正意识到，而且他们中很多人几乎不用DeFi，也不了解DeFi是怎么运作的。

And then, like, you know, the the the argument is that people will find the yield in in in in DeFi, but that is actually not the same thing because what the orders of the the the proposal don't really realize, and and many of them very barely use DeFi and understand how DeFi works.

但很多收益实际上来自这些流动性质押衍生品，它们基本上让质押和进出变得更容易，然后这就创造了借贷需求，你可以进入借贷协议，存入和提取，而不用经历排队过程。

But a lot of the yield actually comes from these liquid staking derivatives that basically just makes it more feasible to stake and come in and out, and then that creates the the borrowing demand that you can go into lending protocols, supply, and withdraw without sort of going to the queue process.

所以如果你移除那个部分，并转移底层收益，实际上发生的是，用户不得不在风险曲线上走得更远，或者基本上在ETH收益上走得更远。

So if you remove that component and you move the underlying yield, effectively, what happens is that users have to go higher in the risk curve or on on on basically ETH yields.

我其实不太清楚有哪些可扩展的收益来源，能让你在以太坊上获得除了无风险或低风险（来自原生质押）之外的收益。

I don't particularly know many yield sources at a scalable way where you can actually get yield on ETH beyond the sort of, like, a kind of, like, a risk free or this low risk yield that is derived from native staking.

所以接下来发生的情况是，DeFi用户和以太坊持有者开始寻找其他的现金流来源。

So what actually happens then is that the users of DeFi and the holders of ETH are starting to actually look for other source of sources of cash flow.

我认为其中最大的赢家其实是稳定币。

And I think there, the biggest the biggest winners are actually stablecoins.

让我用一个更具体的例子来解释这在传统金融中是如何运作的。

And let me explain this in a more concrete example how it works in in TradFi.

所以每当利率处于低位，也就是在低利率环境下，这会刺激股市、大宗商品市场，甚至加密货币市场。

So whenever the interest rates are low, set by you know, when we have a low interest rate environment, that stimulates the the equities and the stock markets and commodities and so forth and even the the the crypto markets.

这是合乎逻辑的，因为你不希望持有零收益的现金，毕竟通胀会不断侵蚀你的本金。

When the and that that that that's logical that makes logical sense because you don't wanna sit on zero yielding cash because your inflation is just basically eating your capital.

所以你会去寻找新的机会。

So you you're finding new opportunities.

道理也是一样的。

So it works the same way around.

所以如果你没有足够的收益或现金流，而你的现金部分有收益，资金就会流向现金，比如。

So if you don't get, you know, sufficient beta or cash flow and you have a yield component in cash, funds move towards cash, for example.

这有点像传统金融中资金流动的方式。

This is sort of like how the money movements are in in the in the traditional finance.

实际上会发生的是，那些对ETH有信心并看重现金流的持有者，可能会把他们的仓位从ETH转向稳定币收益，因为那里有巨大差异，而且是在链上操作。

What will actually happen is that those holders of ETH that are comfortable with the better of ETH and appreciate the cash flow, they might actually then switch their positions from ETH into stable point yields because they there there's a big difference there and and doing that on chain.

所以那真的是一个很大的挑战。

So that is, like, a really big challenge there.

然后，显然，当你移除ETH的生产性资产属性时，它就会变成一种融资腿。

And then then, obviously, what happens to ETH when you remove this productive asset nature is that it becomes that sort of like a funding leg.

这就是我之前提到的那个大型日元套利交易。

And this is where I earlier mentioned about the the the sort of, like, the the the big Japanese yen carry trade.

它存在的原因是，有便宜的日元可以借，然后卖掉换成美元，再用这些美元赚取更高的利率，比如更高。

Why does it exist is because there's cheap yen available that you can borrow and then sell it for dollars and then basically take those dollars and and earn at a softer rate, for example, or or higher.

我认为类似的方法也适用于这种零收益资产的情况。

And I think the similar approach applies into into the same scenario where you have a a zero yielding asset.

你只需要借出来，换成更有生产力的资产，然后去做策略。

You simply borrow it to just swap it into a more productive asset and then to do strategies.

这会给ETH作为资产带来卖压，这就是为什么它对那些想持有ETH的用户群体有影响，因为他们相信ETH的货币属性和价值属性。

And that creates sell pressure for ETH as an asset, And that is why sort of, like, it has an impact for that user base that is coming and and want to hold ETH because, you know, they believe in the sort of, like, a monetary aspect and the value aspect of ETH.

这就是我提出这个观点的原因，因为这是提案作者们想要实现的目标。

And that is why I'm bringing up, like, this point is because that is what the authors of the proposal are trying to achieve.

他们想努力让ETH成为一种更好的货币，或者更好的价值捕获资产。

They are trying to make a more sort of, like, a better ETH as a money sort of, like or better, like, value capture asset.

但实际上，这确实造成了与那个目标和目的相悖的情况和后果。

But in fact, it really creates, you know, circumstances and consequences that go against that objective and goal.

我不怪他们，因为我觉得我看到的基于真正经济学的经济评论不多，这些评论真正审查了这个提案，或者论证的基础。

And I don't blame them because I don't think there has been many sort of, like, economical reviews that I've seen based on true economics that actually review this proposal or or down argumentation is based on.

我交易加密资产已经快十年了，用过很多钱包、交易所、聚合器、前端，我一直在寻找同样的东西。

I've been trading crypto assets for almost a decade, and I've used so many wallets, exchanges, aggregators, front ends, and I'm kinda always looking for the same thing.

一个界面，跨多条链和资产有深度流动性，还能保持隐私，同时我仍然控制自己的资金。

One interface with deep liquidity across a bunch of chains and assets and the ability to act in private, and I still control my own funds.

而且我从来没真正找到过，我总是换来换去钱包，忙着处理燃气费，或者被滑点吃掉利润。

And I've never really found it, and I'm always switching wallets, juggling gas fees, or getting eaten by slippage.

对我来说，Near.com感觉完全不一样。

Near.com feels fundamentally different to me.

我的账户很容易用，我可以从任何链上进行所有我想做的操作，同时我的活动保持私密。

My account is easy to use, and I can take all the actions I want from any chain while my activity remains confidential.

它运行在NEAR上，NEAR已经通过后量子签名跨链转移了超过230亿美元，并且有超过五年的正常运行时间。

It runs on NEAR, which has moved over $23,000,000,000 cross chain using post quantum signing and has over five years of up time.

Near.com是在链上操作并保持控制的最佳方式。

Near.com is the best way to be on chain and be in control.

通过bank list链接，你可以拿回20%的交易手续费。

Get 20% of your trading fees back through the bank list link.

链接在节目说明里，这不是投资建议。

It's in the show notes, not investment advice.

自我托管赢了，但它仍然存在可用性问题。

Self custody won, but it still has a usability problem.

写在纸上的助记词仍然是一个单点故障。

A seed phrase on paper is still a single point of failure.

手机会丢，设备会坏，备份会消失。

Phones get lost, devices break, backups disappear.

BITKEY 就是为这种现实而设计的自托管硬件钱包。

BITKEY is a self custodial hardware wallet built for that reality.

它采用 2/3 多重签名，密钥分别存放在你的手机、BITKEY 硬件设备和 Block 上。

It uses a two of three multisig with keys split across your phone, the BITKEY hardware device, and Block.

没有任何一把钥匙能单独移动你的比特币，Block 也无法单独操作。

No single key can move your Bitcoin, and Block can never move it alone.

没有助记词需要担心丢失或泄露，即使你丢了手机、BITKEY，或者两者都丢了，内置的恢复功能也能帮你找回。

There's no seed phrase to lose or expose, and if you lose your phone, your BITKEY, or both, built in recovery gives you a path back.

硬件屏幕还能让你在确认交易前核对收款地址。

The hardware screen also lets you verify the destination before approving a transaction.

这就是关键所在。

And that's the point.

拥有更多控制权，同时不会因为一个失误就导致全盘皆输。

More control without one mistake putting everything at risk.

所以今天就去下载 BitKey 吧，使用优惠码 bankless 购买 BitKey 还能享受九折优惠。

So download BitKey today and use promo code bankless to get 10% off of your BitKey.

本期节目由 BitKey 赞助播出。

This episode has been sponsored by BitKey.

旅行积分奖励的规则变得比实际需要复杂多了。

Travel rewards have gotten way more complicated than they need to be.

积分会过期，还得找兑换伙伴，碰上禁飞期什么的，结果你最后可能还在纠结自己到底有没有占到便宜。

You've got points that expire, transfer partners, blackout dates, and somehow you still end up wondering if you actually got a good deal.

Coinbase 的做法就简单多了。

Coinbase is taking a much simpler approach.

通过 Coinbase One 的旅行门户预订机票、酒店、租车或度假屋，并使用你的 Coinbase One 卡支付，符合条件的旅行预订能返现 5% 的比特币。

When you book flights, hotels, rental cars, or vacation rentals through the COINBASE ONE travel portal using your COINBASE ONE card, you'll earn 5% in Bitcoin on eligible travel bookings.

订一张四百美元的机票，大概就能拿回二十美元的比特币。

Book a $400 flight, and you'll earn about $20 back in Bitcoin.

没有奖励图表，没有转点伙伴，没有兑换收益，只有你可以持有或交易的比特币。

No reward charts, no transfer partners, no redemption gains, just Bitcoin that you can hold or trade.

而且，你使用Coinbase ONE卡进行的其他所有消费，最高可获得4%的比特币返现。

And every other purchase on your Coinbase ONE card can earn up to 4% back in Bitcoin.

另外，新卡持卡人在开户后30天内消费满100美元，即可获得50美元的比特币奖励。

Plus new cardholders earn a $50 Bitcoin bonus after spending a $100 in their first thirty days.

如果你近期有出行计划，可以查看节目说明中的链接，看看你今天能否获批，而且不会影响你的信用评分。

If So you've got travel coming up, check out the link in the show notes and see if you're approved today with no impact on your credit score.

或者直接访问coinbase.com/banklist。

Or just visit coinbase.com/banklist.

适用条款。

Terms apply.

更多信息请访问coinbase.com/banklist。

That's coinbase.com/banklist for more information.

这个提案中有几个元素我觉得很有意思，甚至可以说不错，但只是在理想情况下不错，现实中并不好。

There are a few elements of this proposal that I find interesting and I'll say even like good, but good in a vacuum, not good in reality.

也许我会挑其中几个来讲讲。

And maybe maybe I'll go through some of those.

我觉得这个提议里，保留原生以太坊、让用户能持有不被通胀稀释的原生以太坊，这个初衷是很好的。

The idea of preserving Vanilla Ether and enabling end users to hold Vanilla Ether without being inflated away is is noble to me.

这个提议背后的理念之一就是，你不需要非得把以太坊存进 Lido、Rocket Pool 或者 EtherFi 这些平台，因为从某种意义上说，它们都是中介。

And like that that's one of the spirits behind this proposal is that, you know, Vanilla Ether, you shouldn't be compelled to have to put your Ether inside of Lido or Rocket Pool or EtherFi because those are all intermediaries in a sense.

说白了，这些都是第三方中介机构。

These are all, you know, third party intermediaries.

它们是去中心化金融应用，所以像这样，它们比银行或券商这些中间商要好一些，但本质上还是中间商。

They're DeFi apps and so, like, they're better intermediaries than, a bank or brokerage, but they're an intermediary nonetheless.

以太坊除了减少中间商之外，还能做什么呢？

And what is Ethereum for other than reducing intermediaries?

有了质押目标机制，你不需要质押你的ETH，你可以持有普通的ETH，也不需要把ETH放到Aave里，就能跟上发行率并获得收益。

And so by with stake targeting, you don't have to stake your ETH, you get to hold Vanilla ETH, and you don't have to put your ETH in Aave in order to keep up with the rate of issuance and to get the yield.

你只需要持有普通的以太币，就可以实现没有中间商。

You can just hold Vanilla Ether and be intermediary free.

这非常自主，非常像比特币，是非常硬的货币，稳健的货币。

It's very self sovereign is very Bitcoin like, it's very hard money, sound money.

而且你知道，Aave 的 Stani，稍微回应一下你的观点，日元套息交易里，实际收益率和名义收益率被混淆了。

And you know, Aave, Stani to a little bit of your point, the Japanese yen carry trade is a is there's there's a conflation on real yield and nominal yield.

ETH 的质押率是名义收益率，因为我们在铸造 ETH，同时把它发给质押者。

There's a lot the ETH stake rate is a nominal yield because we are minting ETH as we are giving it to the ETH to the ETH stakers.

实际收益率并没有发生。

Real yield is not happening.

实际收益率是支付给质押者的交易费用，也许你还想把销毁也算进去。

Real yield is the transaction fees that are paid to stakers and then maybe you also wanna count burn in that as well.

那才是实际收益率。

That's real yield.

而名义收益率其实只是一个金融游戏。

And the nominal yield is really just a financial game.

而通过这个质押目标 EIP，也就是质押缩减，我们直接去掉了人们喜欢玩的名义收益率游戏，但那全是假的。

And with this stake targeting EIP, you know, stake tapering, we just remove the whole game around nominal yields that people do love to play like like a little people really love nominal yield games, but it's all fake.

所以，如果你只是自己持有普通的ETH，配合stake targeting EIP，你就不需要那样做。

And so we you don't have to do that if you just hold Vanilla ETH self sovereignly with the stake targeting EIP.

那会是一个论点。

That would that would be one argument.

Mike，你对此有什么回应？

Mike, what would your response to that be?

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我认为这有点像是对经济的现金会计层面的理解，这是非常基础的层面。

I mean, I think it's I I I described it as sort of a cash accounting level of understanding of the economy, which is a, like, a, you know, very kinda base level.

是的。

Like, yeah.

对。

Yeah.

如果你持有固定蛋糕、零和的观点，那就是名义收益。

It's nominal yield if you have like a fixed pie zero sum perspective.

如果经济在增长，而发行量低于经济增长的速度，那你还是有实际收益的。

If the economy is growing and like the the issuance is less than, I guess, the growth of the economy, I mean, you still have real yield.

而且你把这些收益重新注入经济中，因为你提供了有价值的服务，比如运行网络或者保护用户权益，这能帮助经济增长。

And this yield that you're injecting back into the economy for providing valuable services like running the the network or providing user protections helps the economy grow.

实际上，这真的能支持整个生态系统的发展。

Like, the the it actually, like, supports the growth of the the ecosystem.

所以，用这种非常单一的角度来看问题，比如只看数字上涨就觉得不好，这完全是比特币的思维方式。

So looking at it in this, like, very sort of one dimensional, like, number go up, therefore bad, that is very much a Bitcoin mindset.

我觉得你说得对，我可以用各种脏话来形容那种想法。

I think you're right on that, and it's I could use all kinds of expletives to to to describe that.

我是在正面使用那个词。

I was using it positively.

我觉得你是在负面使用它。

I think you're using it negatively.

非常负面。

Very negative.

对。

Yeah.

我对大多数比特币持有者印象很差。

Have a very negative opinion of most Bitcoiners.

你知道，这有点像在说，好吧。

You know, it's it's a little bit like saying, okay.

我唯一真正有钱的方式就是随身带一小袋金币。

The only real way, you know, I have money is if I carry a little bag of gold coins with me.

如果我付钱给你，我给你一枚金币，而不是那些疯狂的iPhone、Cash App之类的东西。

And if I pay you, I give you a gold coin like none of this crazy iPhone Cash App stuff.

你到底在给我发什么啊，兄弟？

Like, what are you even sending me bro?

什么？

Like, what?

你看，如果我们还是原始人，用贝壳交易，那还行。

Like, look, we're yeah, like if we're cavemen and we're trading, you know, seashells, like, fine.

但在一个成熟的经济体里，所有的以太坊都会以衍生品的形式存在。

But, like, in a sophisticated economy, like, all ETH is gonna be in derivatives.

就算他们取消了质押，搞出别的什么系统，你还是会交易衍生品。

Like, you're not even in a world where stake let's say they eliminate staking, they come up with some other, you know, system, you're still gonna be trading derivatives.

对吧？

Right?

如果有个协议替你保管资产，我们再用部分准备金银行的例子来说。

If there's some protocol that holds your assets and again, let's take the fractional reserve banking example.

你不会真的把以太币转给别人。

Like, you're not gonna be like sending people real Ether.

你转的是代表银行存款凭证的信用，在成熟的经济体里，你不会去交易那种原始的、像金币一样的东西。

You're gonna be sending people credits that represent, you know, a deposit certificate at a bank and there's in a sophisticated economy, you're not gonna be, you know, trading these sort of raw, you know, gold coins.

所以我觉得这个……我不知道。

So I think this I don't know.

这种认为只有放在自己账户里的原始以太坊才是真以太坊的观点，几乎就是基于一种不相信以太坊能真正成为健全经济基础的心态。

This this perspective that the only true ETH is like raw ETH that you hold in your EOA is it's almost like a it's based on this lack of belief that Ethereum truly can be the foundation for a proper economy.

对吧？

Right?

这又是那种比特币思维，觉得我就把ETH囤着，反正它总会升值，除此之外我啥也不干。

It it comes from this idea again of this sort of Bitcoin or mindset that I'm just gonna stack my ETH and it's gonna appreciate in value for some reason and that's all I'm ever gonna do with it.

但如果你想构建一个经济体，你就得建立金融衍生品、金融机构、保护措施、拒付机制等等各种必要的东西。

But if you wanna build an economy, you're gonna build financial derivatives and institutions and protections and chargebacks and all kinds of, you know, fun stuff that needs to exist.

这些机制之所以被开发出来，肯定是有原因的。

There was a reason, you know, this stuff was developed in the in the first place.

那里是有价值的。

There's value there.

所以，你知道的，在以太坊实现我们所有人希望它达到的那种愿景的世界里，你根本就不会直接用纯粹的 ETH 进行交易，因为说实话，那样做甚至都不安全。

So the you know, in a in a world where Ethereum does what we all hope it'll do, you're never really gonna be transacting with, you know, pure ETH in the first place because it's frankly, it's not even safe to do so.

你肯定不希望你的银行只是简单地拿着一个巨大的钱包，里面塞满了 ETH。

You don't want your bank to just be holding, you know, a giant wallet with a bunch of ETH stuck in it.

你想要的是围绕它建立层层保护机制，而这正是我之前提到的 LST（流动性质押代币）实际上能提供的服务之一，成本几乎为零，大概只需要付出百分之零点零五到百分之零点一的代价。

You you want layers of protections built around it, is one of the services that I said that LSTs actually end up providing for basically zero cost for, like, five or 10 basis points of cost.

嗯。

Mhmm.

比那个Tratify系统便宜多了。

A lot cheaper than, you know, the the Tratify system.

对。

Yeah.

我想从另一个角度来看我刚才说的那个论点，以太坊的一个优势就是它有一个DeFi经济。

I guess to take the flip side of the, the argument that I was giving a second ago, one of the benefits that Ethereum has is that it has a DeFi economy.

DeFi经济的一个效果也可以是让收益民主化，让终端用户都能享受到。

And one of the effects of the DeFi economy can also to be democratize the yield to end users.

没错。

Right.

所以问题就是，我们怎么才能达到最终目标，让终端用户能自由获取以太坊安全和以太坊经济的价值？

And so it's like the it's a question of like, how do we want to get to the end result of end users having free access to the value of Ethereum security and the Ethereum economy?

我觉得有了流动性质押衍生品和像Aave或EtherFi这样的DeFi应用，如果100%的ETH都被质押了，所有这些价值都可以重新分配给持有以太币的终端用户，效果其实和一开始就没有增发是一样的。

And I think with liquid staking derivatives and DeFi apps like Aave or or EtherFi, if a 100% of ETH gets staked, all of that value can be redistributed to end users with Ether in their account effectively the same way as it would be if we like had zero issuance in the first place.

而且我觉得，从DeFi建设者的角度来看，ETH减发的精神和目标其实是通过以太坊的应用层，也就是DeFi层来实现的。

And I think maybe from the perspective of the DeFi builders is that all of the the spirit of ETH tapering and the goals of ETH tapering is actually achieved through the application layer, the DeFi layer of Ethereum.

我们到底在干什么？这就是我们存在的意义。

What do we even that's what we're here for.

这就是我们要做的事情。

That's what we are here to do.

我们就是围绕以太坊这个资产的金融化层和民主化层。

We are the financialization layer and the democratization layer around the Ether of the asset.

这是我们的工作，而这个提案只是想把这份工作正式写进以太坊，而DeFi生态系统做得同样好，甚至更好。

This is our job and the and the this proposal is just trying to enshrine this job in Ethereum which the DeFi ecosystem does just as well if not better.

这就好比私营市场比政府做得更高效，而且我们一直在做这件事。

It's like the private market is doing it better than the government more efficiently, and we've already been doing this.

所以别把这个角色从我们手里夺走。

So don't take this role away from us.

这可能是另一方的强硬论点吧。

That's maybe the strong man of the other side of the argument.

迈克，你同意这个观点吗，还是你想补充点什么？

Would you agree with that, Mike, or would you wanna say it or add

是的，我确实有不同的看法。

There's anything to yeah.

我只是从不同的角度来看待这个问题。

Just the one I got the different ways of looking at this.

所以我可以补充的另一个视角是，你可以把质押率看作是对储蓄者的一种奖励。

So another perspective that I can add is you can look at the staking rate as a way of rewarding people that are saving.

你知道，如果你在美元经济中，你创造了一些财富，你制造了一个小玩意儿，你卖掉它，你得到美元。

You know, if you're if you in a dollar economy, you produce some wealth, you make a widget, you sell it, you get your dollars.

而不是消费它们，不是花掉它们，你选择储蓄。

And instead of consuming them, instead of spending them, you save them.

作为储蓄的回报，你让这些钱去工作，赚取一些利息，因为你把财富投入了世界，没有花掉它，所以你从这些财富在世界上做有益的事情中获益。

And in exchange for saving them, you're getting your, you know, they're put to work and you're earning some bit of interest because you put out wealth into the world, you're not spending it, and so you're reaping the rewards of that wealth out there, you know, doing productive things.

这也许是看待质押收益的另一种方式。

That is perhaps another way of looking at the staking yield.

质押ETH的人通常不会卖掉它。

People that stake their ETH generally are not selling it.

所以如果你做了些事情，得到了ETH作为报酬，你不想花掉它。

So if you're you did some stuff, you got some ETH in payment for, you know, your your services, you don't wanna spend it.

你把它质押起来。

You stake it.

你持有它。

You hold it.

你帮助保护网络，这个网络运行着这个经济。

You help secure the network, the network which is running this economy.

作为交换，你获得那个资产在外部产生收益的回报。

And in exchange, you're getting the the rewards of that asset being productive out there.

这再次说明，如果经济在增长，把它看作名义收益率并不是正确的思考方式。

This is again why thinking of it as nominal yield is not really the right way to think about it if the economy is growing.

因为如果经济每年增长10%，但货币供应量每年只增长1%，那么你实际上每年有9%的实际增长，你希望从ETH的升值以及这个利率中受益，这个利率又会反馈到经济中。

Because the if the economy is growing at 10% a year, but the money supply is growing at 1% a year, well, then you you actually have 9% of real growth per year and you're getting the benefit of that hopefully in the appreciation of ETH and, you know, in this interest rate which feeds back into, you know, into the the economy.