最被低估的链：Celo在全球出人意料的吸引力 | Marek Olszewski

这个问题在这个播客中很相关。

It's a relevant question on this podcast.

当然。

Absolutely.

你可以想象，当你在旅行时，身处一个你可能从未去过的国家，突然丢了实体钱包。

And I mean you can imagine you're traveling, you're you're in a country that you, you know, maybe you haven't visited before and you lose your physical wallet.

通常来说，这简直是一场大危机。

Normally, you know, that's like a pretty big emergency.

你得想办法申请一张新信用卡，甚至可能要改变行程。

You need to, I don't know, find ways to get a new credit card maybe even like you change your plans.

但他却继续在肯尼亚完成每一笔交易，后来还去了尼日利亚，因为他没有缩短旅行，反而飞到了尼日利亚并继续前行。

He instead proceeded to do every transaction in Kenya and then later Nigeria because he didn't cut his trip short he actually flew to Nigeria and continued.

他所有交易都使用了MINI Pay。

He did everything with MINI Pay.

现在，MINI Pay允许你在肯尼亚任何地方使用M-Pesa付款。

MINI Pay now lets you pay with M Pesa anywhere in Kenya.

在尼日利亚，可以使用当地的支付系统进行支付。

In Nigeria, can pay using the local rails there.

在阿根廷，DepConnect 推出了对 MercadoPago 的支持。

In Argentina, for DepConnect, they launched MercadoPago support.

你可以在任何支持 MercadoPago 的地方付款。

You can pay anywhere MercadoPago is supported.

在巴西，你可以使用 PICCs 等方式进行支付。

In Brazil, you can pay with PICCs, etcetera.

因此，这可能是你听众中一些人更实用的使用场景，比如他们去参加加密货币会议时，可能会遇到信用卡不被接受的情况。

And so this is kind of probably a more useful use case for maybe some folks in your audience who might travel to crypto conferences and might find themselves in situations where credit cards might not be accepted.

越来越多的情况下，MiniPay 将能覆盖这类人群。

Increasingly, think MiniPay will have folks like that covered.

但我认为，主要的使用场景仍然是自由职业者、汇款和储蓄场景。

But I think the primary use cases still continue to be kind of the freelancer, the remittance use cases and the savings use cases.

对于这些场景，你的听众可能有朋友或家人正处在这样的情况中。

And for those, maybe your listeners, you know, have friends and family who might be in those boats.

如果是这样，我强烈建议直接推荐这些朋友和家人使用 MiniPay。

And if so, you know, I'd highly recommend just directing, you know, those friends and family members to minipay.

因为它的这些使用场景做得非常出色。

To because it's just it just does a wonderful job with these use cases.

是的。

Yeah.

Mercado Pago 的例子让我深有共鸣。

The Mercado Pago example just rings true for me.

这可能也适用于许多参加在阿根廷布宜诺斯艾利斯举办的 DevConnect 的听众。

It's and probably for many listeners who just went down to to DevConnect in Buenos Aires in Argentina.

在阿根廷，Mercado Pago 几乎是最后一公里支付的首选服务商。

Mercado Pago is just kinda like the last mile payments provider across Argentina.

它就像我们的 Stripe。

It's like it's like our Stripe.

它就像我们的 Stripe。

It's like our stripe.

如果你去美国的任何商家，发现那个小小的Square或扫码支付设备，他们那里用的也是Mercado Pago。

If you go and like find out little square a little tap to pay thing inside of any merchant in America, they have the Mercado Pago down there.

而且在马伊尔当选之前，这根本是不可能的。

And like I like prior to Malay getting elected, it was impossible.

用信用卡并不是不可能，但你根本不会这么做，因为商家会加收40%到70%的手续费，因为交易会经过阿根廷的商业银行体系，而这个体系受到政府严密管控，会给你极其糟糕的汇率，因为他们依赖信用卡网络。

It wasn't impossible to use credit cards, but you would just wouldn't do that because they would do a 40 to 70% markup, because it would run through the banking commercial banking layer of Argentina, which would, you know, be very heavily managed by the government which would just give you a terrible exchange rate because they're using the credit card networks.

这些中间的商业银行体系从政府那里获得控制权，给你一个非常差的汇率，这成了银行和政府共同的收入来源。

You have these into the intermediary commercial banking layers who have this like control from the government to give you a pretty terrible exchange rate, which is like a source of revenue for both the banks and also the government.

自从马伊尔上台后，这个汇率已经下降了。

That exchange rate has gone down since Malay got into office.

它从大约40%的差价降到了5%到6%。

So it went from, like, 40% exchange to, like, five to 6%.

这种汇率水平在我们美国是绝对无法接受的，但如今人们却已经习以为常，因为在阿根廷用信用卡变得便宜太多了。

So, you know, it's not it's not anything we would ever tolerate in America, but still people just kinda tolerate it now as so much more low low using their credit cards in Argentina.

那是因为，我手机上根本没有MiniPay。

That's because, like, I didn't I didn't have MiniPay on my phone.

我真希望早点知道。

I wish I'd known.

但如果我有稳定币，这笔费用就会是零，而且会是我和商家之间的点对点支付。

But had I had stable coins, that fee would have been zero, and it would have been a p two p payment between me and the merchant.

稳定币在阿根廷正被广泛采用，因为商家发现，如果他们接受稳定币而不是信用卡，就能获得即时结算，这意味着他们可以立即获得资金，而不是像信用卡网络那样每两周结算一次，而后者将资金滞留作为其商业模式的一部分。

And stablecoins are getting adopted very heavily in Argentina because merchants found out that if they don't do if they take stable coins instead of credit cards, they get instant settlement, which means they get access to that capital immediately as opposed to like a biweekly settlement period of the credit card networks, which then are accruing flow as part of their business model.

但银行并没有把这笔钱给商家，而是利用这些滞留资金赚取收益。

But instead of giving it to the businesses, they're accruing the yield on the float that they have.

然后商家要等一到两周后才能真正拿到这笔钱。

And then the businesses don't actually see that money for, like, one to two weeks later.

因此，稳定币在阿根廷被如此广泛采用，正是因为商家能在交易完成的瞬间就获得资金，然后他们可以立即用这些资金投资自己的业务。

And so this is why, you know, stable coins in Argentina are being adopted so heavily is because they get that access to that capital immediately upon the actual transaction going through, and then they can actually just use that to invest in their business.

对我来说，这体现了一种非常去银行化的理念。

And it's to me, it's like a very bankless aligned ethos.

这就是商家和消费者之间的直接关系。

It's like, you know, merchant and consumer.

消费者直接用稳定币支付给商家，从而绕过了商业银行和政府，这非常好。

Consumer pays merchant directly with stable coins, and you cut out the commercial banks, you cut out the government, which is great.

而且这实现了资本更高效的使用。

And and it's a there's a more efficient use of capital.

而且我们想把这个和ManyPay联系起来。

And you you and I wanna connect this back to many pay.

这是一个ManyPay组织，我对此有一些问题，它正在Celo区块链上——一个互联网上的加密经济去中心化协议——促进这种支付方式。

This is a many pay, this organization that I have a few questions on that's kind of facilitating this on the Celo blockchain, you know, crypto economic decentralized protocol on the Internet.

但同时，CeloPay似乎已经解决了最后一公里的难题，通过在多个地区整合本地商家。

But also it seems that CeloPay has really done the hard thing of solving the last mile problem by integrating local merchants in a bunch of different regions.

你提到过这一点，但我真的想再强调一次。

You talked about this, but I really wanna highlight this just one more time.

虚拟银行账户，比如，如果你需要从雇主或他人那里收款，他们会为你创建一个虚拟银行账户。

The virtual bank account where, like, if you need to be paid by your employer or by someone, they will spin up a virtual bank account.

他们会直接给你一个存款号码，就像有人想付给我稳定币时，我会找到一个地址并分享给他们，他们就可以转账给我。

They'll just give you, here's your deposit number, kind of in the same way that, like, if somebody is trying to pay me stable coins, and I'll go find an address and I'll share them the address and they can send it to me.

Mini Pay 会为你所在地区的司法管辖区创建一个虚拟银行账户。

Mini Pay spins up a virtual bank account for your local jurisdiction.

我不确定他们是否在全球范围内都实现了整合，但你们是不是只提供存款号和路由号，然后将这些信息映射到你的稳定币钱包？

I'm I don't know if they're integrated all over the world, but do you just have like the deposit and routing number and then they map that to your stablecoin wallet.

当一笔100美元或1000美元的银行转账到账时，后台会将其转换为稳定币，然后存入你的账户，嗯。

And when the 100 or $1,000 bank transfer comes in, it converts to stablecoins on the back end and then deposit it into your account Mhmm.

以稳定币的形式存入 Mini Pay 在 Celo 上的账户。

As stablecoins in mini pay on sello.

我不清楚他们已经整合了多少全球范围，但根据我和你的对话，马克，似乎已经覆盖了相当大的一部分世界。

And I don't know how much of the globe that they've integrated, but for my conversations with you, Mark, it seems to be a decent amount of the world of the globe.

你对刚才我说的有什么反应吗？

Is there anything react to anything I just said.

完全正确。

Totally.

而且他们是一比一兑换，这非常了不起。

And they do it one for one, which is pretty amazing.

所以他们补贴了兑换费用和手续费。

So they subsidize the exchange fees and the honorable fees.

对于虚拟账户，目前仅支持欧洲和美国的银行账户。

For the virtual accounts, it's currently only European and US bank accounts.

但仍然

But for still

Mini Pay 的目标是解决最后一公里问题。

goal of mini pay is to do is to solve the last mile problem.

对吧？

Right?

所以是的。

So yeah.

我想，也许回到瑞安之前的问题，为什么是现在？

And I think, you know, maybe coming back to Ryan's question earlier, like, why now?

我们一直在这上面埋头苦干了这么久。

Have spent again, we've just been grinding on this for so long.

我们花了大量时间在新兴市场培育入金和出金渠道。

We spent so much time working to nurture on and off ramps in emerging markets.

早在我们启动孵化器项目时，就设立了一个生态系统基金，与SiloCamp的一些生态伙伴合作，他们一直在做出色的工作。

We started an ecosystem fund way back when we started an incubator program with some ecosystem folks doing wonderful work over at SiloCamp.

要让公司成立、融资并成功在众多新兴市场推出入金和出金服务，花了好几年时间。

And it took years for companies to form, for companies to raise capital and to launch successful on and off ramping companies throughout a lot of these emerging markets.

直到现在，人们才能在这些市场中轻松实现入金和出金。

And only now can people easily on and off ramp in a lot of these markets.

所以我认为这确实起到了帮助作用，而MiniPay目前大概有二三十家全球接入的入金和出金合作伙伴，现在可能甚至更多。

And so I think that certainly helped And MiniPay has, I don't know, I think probably like 20 to 30 on and off ramp partners that have integrated globally, maybe even more at this point.

它们允许你进行入金和出金，但不一定像拥有虚拟银行账户那样便捷。

And they allow you to on and off ramp, not necessarily as easily as having a virtual bank account.

在某些情况下，这仍然更像MoonPay那样的体验，但越来越多的平台现在提供了非常无缝的体验：对于资金主要来源地，比如美国和欧洲，通过这些银行账户汇款变得非常容易；而对于资金使用地，现在也让你能轻松消费，而无需再经历繁琐的入金和出金流程。

Know, it's still more like kind of a MoonPay type of experience in some cases, but more and more now they're offering these really seamless experiences where for places where money tends to originate like you know The US and Europe, it's really easy to send money in using one of these bank accounts and for places where you want to spend that money, they're now making it really easy for you to spend without the on and off app experience.

你只需扫描或生成一个二维码，资金就会直接支付。

You just scan them or cut out a QR code and then it just gets paid directly.

现在终于实现了。

And it's finally happening.

让所有这些公司成立并开始提供这些服务，花了太长时间。

It just took forever to get all of these companies to form and to start offering these services.

我认为这最终也是为什么加密货币会在这一领域胜出的原因，对吧？

And I think that's ultimately why also why crypto will win in this category, right?

因为有时候人们会问我，Venmo 为什么不能直接全球化呢？

Because sometimes people ask me like, can't Venmo just become global, right?

为什么全球版的 Venmo 必须基于加密货币的基础设施？

Why does global Venmo have to be on crypto rails?

我认为答案是，你需要大量公司，在每个市场都获得大量许可，并且齐心协力，才能创造出如此出色的体验。

And I think the answer is you need just a crap ton of companies with a crap ton of licenses in each of these markets to row in the same direction, work together to create this amazing experience.

但由于各种原因，任何一家公司都很难独自做好这件事。

And it's just for various reasons too difficult for any one company to do that well.

但如果你想让多家公司都做得很好，并提供这种卓越的体验，那么事实证明，加密货币恰恰是激励大量参与者齐心协力的完美方式。

But if you want to have multiple companies doing it well and delivering this amazing experience, Well, then it turns out that crypto is actually the perfect way to incentivize a lot of folks to row in the same direction.

因此，在这方面，Solo 的表现非常好。

And so it's it's working really nicely in that regard with Solo.

是的。

Yeah.

这让我想起了 Inverious Antinopolis 的理念，也就是公共领域的节日——当拥有许可证 A 的公司 A 与拥有许可证 B 的公司 B 在同一个区块链上运行时，这两者就能互相通信、协同合作，从而实现共同利益的增长，当我们把所有这些整合在一起时，就会产生出色的体验。

It kinda reminds me of Inverious Antinopolis, this idea of the festival of the commons of just, like, when we all when, you know, company a with license a operates on the same blockchain as company b with license b, well, those two things can talk to each other and coordinate together, and there's, like, a growing of the pie that when we all add all these together with the experience that comes out of it.

我们已经多次讨论过这个叫 Mini Pay 的东西。

We've talked about this this thing, mini pay, a lot.

我想深入聊聊这个，直接谈一谈它。

I wanna dive into that and just kind of, like, touch on that directly.

这个组织到底是什么？

What is this organization?

这到底是什么？

What what is this?

我觉得有些人可能以为这是个销售性质的东西。

Is this I think maybe people think that this is a sell of thing.

据我所知，它并不是，但那里确实存在合作关系。

As I understand it, it's not, but there is a partnership there.

跟我讲讲，MiniPay到底是什么？

Talk to me and and fill me in about what MiniPay actually is.

是的。

Yes.

MiniPay 是一个产品。

So MiniPay is a product.

它是由浏览器公司 Opera 开发的。

It's by Opera, the the browser company.

他们已经存在了三十年。

They've been around for thirty years now.

这是一家在纳斯达克上市的公众公司。

They're a public company traded on NASDAQ.

在 Chrome 出现之前，他们在桌面端非常流行。

They were very popular on desktop before Chrome came out.

然后Chrome的出现，我认为彻底摧毁了桌面市场。

And then Chrome, I think, really decimated the desktop market.

从那以后，Opera在移动领域取得了巨大成功，而现在实际上又逐渐回归桌面，这真令人欣慰。

Opera has had a lot of success on mobile since then now actually increasingly back on desktop, which is cool to see.

所以MiniPay可以说是他们进军金融科技领域的尝试。

So MiniPay is their entry into the fintech world, so to speak.

由于他们拥有大量用户——旗下所有产品的月活跃用户数量约为五亿——他们处于一个绝佳的位置，几乎可以赢得全球Venmo的市场。

And just by virtue of them having a lot of customers, like they have on the order of 500,000,000 monthly active users across all of their products, they are just an amazing they're in an amazing position to basically win at Global Venmo.

他们拥有这些用户，如今月活跃用户接近全球人口的10%。

They have the customers they have close to 10% of the world population as a monthly active user today.

而这些用户中的许多人身处金融基础设施薄弱的地区，很难接收来自海外的资金。

And many of those users are in markets where financial rails are lacking and it's difficult for people to receive money from overseas.

因此，这正是他们建立网络效应、进而称霸全球的完美起点。

And so it's just a perfect starting point for them to kind of create network effects needed to take over the world here.

这就是Opera。

So that's Opera.

你知道，Cello基金会。

Know, Cello, the Cello Foundation.

我在Sea Labs，Cello基金会与Opera有合作关系。

I'm over at Sea Labs, the Cello Foundation has a partnership with Opera.

我想上个月，他们宣布将这份合作延续到本十年末。

I think just last month, they announced the renewal of that partnership through, I think, the end of the decade.

所以我们是，是的。

So we're yeah.

我们一直与他们紧密合作。

We've been working really, really closely with them.

我认为双方都非常一致，希望彼此成功。

I think both parties are just very aligned having, you know, each other succeed.

这项协议的具体内容是什么？

What's the nature of that agreement?

你们达成了哪些协议？

Like, what what did you guys agree to?

这是一份独家协议。

It's an exclusive agreement.

是的。

Yeah.

为什么呢？我的意思是，我猜如果塞拉是这么强大的对手，他们为什么会希望独家合作呢？

How well, why I mean, I I would guess why Sella would want them to be exclusive if they're such a powerhouse.

他们为什么要同意只和你们合作？

Why would they agree to be exclusive to you guys?

对。

Yeah.

而且，再说一遍，我并不在太阳基金会，但当然。

As and, again, I'm not at the Solar Foundation, but Sure.

当然，有一些财务条款让这个合作很有吸引力。

You know, there's financial terms, of course, that that makes that appealing.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

梅里克，你之前提到的一个问题是关于接入通道和最后一公里问题，这些曾经是障碍，但现在我们正在建立这些接入通道和退出通道。

One of the things, Merrick, you you were talking about is on ramps and the kind of the last mile problem that's being solved and how that's been a impediment, but now we're setting those up on ramps, of course, and off ramps.

我在想，是否有可能在未来，这些通道变得不那么必要了。

I'm sort of wondering if there's a world where those become less necessary over time.

完全正确。

So Totally.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，随着我们的发展，我们不再需要接入通道了，因为每个人都在使用微型支付，进入了去中心化金融生态系统。

I mean kinda like where we're going, we don't need on ramps any longer because everyone is just on mini pay, and they're in the DeFi Open Finance ecosystem.

一旦所有人都跨越了这个鸿沟，完成了接入，他们对退出的需求就会越来越低。

And once everybody has crossed that chasm, they've on ramped, they feel less and less of a need to off ramp.

为什么？

Why?

因为所有他们想互动的人都已经上了车。

Because everyone else that they wanna interact with is already on ramped.

我在想，你觉得这需要多长时间才能实现。

I'm wondering how long you think that will take to play out.

基本上，我们需要多久才能在这里真正实现更去中心化的银行体系，并建立网络效应，使得进出通道变得几乎不那么重要？

Basically, how long until we can actually go much more bankless here and build the network effect such that on ramps and on off ramps become, like, almost, like, minorly important?

这是个非常棒的问题。

Really, really great question.

我本来以为，当我们八年前刚开始时，这就已经发生了。

I would have thought it would have happened by now when we started eight years ago.

我显然对这个未来非常看好，而且我们已经为此努力了很长时间。

I'm very bullish on this future, obviously, and and we've been working towards it for a long time.

我们认为，要让这一切真正运作起来，还需要本地货币的稳定币。

We think that for this to really work, you also need local currency stablecoins.

这就是为什么我们也与Mento协议合作，以帮助培育新的生态系统。

So that's why we've also worked with the Mento protocol to help nurture new ecosystems.

那还需要一段时间，对吧？

That's still a ways away, right?

我们现在只有美元。

All we have is dollars right now.

Mento 在 Cello 上有 15 种稳定币。

Mento has 15 stablecoins on Cello.

真的吗？

They do?

好的。

Okay.

但它们的规模还非常小。

They're just very small small in terms of amounts.

是的。

Yeah.

但事实证明，它们目前已有的金额已经足以在 Cello 上实现链上效应。

But it turns out that, you know, the amounts that they have already are sufficient to do on chain effects on Cello.

我们也应该谈谈链上效应，因为我认为这是一个每年高达三万二千亿美元的巨大市场。

We should talk about on chain effects as well because it's a quadrillion annual, I think 3.2 market annually.

所以这是一个巨大的市场。

So it's like a huge market.

外汇当然是，但我认为越来越多的交易正在转向链上，也许最终所有交易都会在链上进行。

FX is, of course, but I think increasingly more and more of that is coming on chain and maybe eventually everything will be on chain.

但回到让所有人都摆脱银行体系的问题，我认为这需要一段时间。

But coming back to making everyone bankless, I think it will take a while.

我认为这需要很长时间，因为每个人都需要拥有一个自托管钱包，只有这样才说得通。

And I think it will take a while because you need effectively everyone to have a self custodial wallet only then will it just make sense.

从那时起，你就可以直接在链上向下一个人、下一个供应商或下一个员工付款。

From then on you can just continue to pay the next person or the next vendor or the next employee on chain.

在我们实现这一点之前，我们必须让它变得非常简单。

And until we get there, we effectively need it to be very easy.

无论人们生活在世界哪个角落，从法币到稳定币的转换都应该是零摩擦的。

There should be no friction going from fiat to stablecoins in the back for everyone in the world regardless of where they live.

而这是在全球范围内难以实现的。

And that's something that is difficult to accomplish globally.

但越来越多地，我们看到这种情况正在发生。

But increasingly, we're seeing that this is happening.

因此会有一个过渡期。

So there will be this transition period.

我认为这可能会是一个相当漫长的过渡期。

I think it's probably going to be a fairly long transition period.

但谁知道呢，对吧？

But who knows, right?

我认为网络效应的特点是，起初进展缓慢，然后突然间烟雾变成烈火。

I think the thing with network effects is that things start slow and then suddenly smoke turns into fire.

然后突然间，一夜之间每个人都开始使用自托管钱包。

And then suddenly overnight everyone's using a self custodial wallet.

所以也许它会很快发生，想想看。

So perhaps it'll happen soon, think.

但我认为，过去八年我一直在构建和运营Solo，这让我觉得这仍然需要一段时间。

But I think this experience building and working on Solo for eight years has made me think that it will take still a while.

但这并不意味着世界上很大一部分人口不能以这种方式行动。

But that doesn't mean that you can't get very significant percentage of the world's population acting this way.

我认为，这在今天已经越来越普遍了。

And I think that is certainly increasingly just happening today already.

谈谈链上外汇吧，因为当你提到数千万亿时，这个数字对我来说挺有意思的。

Talk about that on chain FX because when you said quadrillions, like, that's kind of an interesting number to me.

这听起来太多了。

That feels like a lot.

所以当你提到外汇时，你指的是这种使用场景下的法币之间的兑换吗？

So when when you say FX, right, are you just talking about, like, for this type of use case, currency conversion from one fiat to another?

这是否就是外汇的实际含义？

Is that what FX effectively means?

那么当你说到链上外汇时，你具体指的是什么？

And so and when you say on chain FX, what are you talking about?

如今的外汇市场我认为是世界上最大的金融市场。

So the FX market today is, I think, the biggest financial market in the world.

每天交易的金额现在达到了约9万亿美元。

There's now on the order of $9,000,000,000,000 exchanged every day.

所以全年来看，是的，这达到了数千万亿，3.2万亿美元。

So across the year, yeah, that's in the quadrillions, 3.2 quadrillions.

这是人们在美元、日元、人民币、欧元以及非洲、亚洲和全球各地的本地货币之间来回兑换吗？

And this is people going from dollars to yen to yuan to euros back and forth to all the local currencies in Africa and in Asia and all over the world?

没错。

Absolutely.

包括个人旅行者，但我认为更重要的是商业公司、机构和银行通过相应的银行系统相互交易。

So individuals, people traveling, but I think more than that, commerce companies, institutions, banks, transacting with each other through the corresponding banking system.

还有所有人都在寻求对冲风险。

And then everyone looking to hedge as well.

因此这是一个庞大到极点的市场，但它对很多人来说并不容易接触，效率仍然很低，仍依赖于传统的银行系统。

And so that is a massive, massive market, but it's not very accessible to a lot of people, quite inefficient working still through the corresponding banking system.

而且它并不能24/7正常运行。

And it doesn't work 20 fourseven.

因此，将这一切上链将为每个人带来巨大的价值，原因有很多。

And so there is just so many reasons why bringing this on chain will just deliver so much value to everyone.

我们越来越多地看到，这些活动主要发生在Celo上，很大程度上是因为Mento在Celo上推出了15种稳定币。

And increasingly we're seeing that activity happening on Celo in large part because Mento has 15 stablecoins on Celos.

如果去掉美元和欧元，那就是13种本地货币稳定币。

If you take away the dollar and the euro, that's 13 local currency stablecoins.

Celo上还有许多其他本地货币稳定币。

There's also a lot of other local currency stablecoins on Celo as well.

虽然规模可能不如Mento那么大，但专注于瑞士法郎、英镑或巴西雷亚尔等货币。

Maybe not quite as big as Mento but focused on the Swiss franc or the pound or the Brazilian real.

我们越来越多地看到，Uniswap、Velodrome以及许多其他交易所的交易量持续增长，这相当令人振奋。

And increasingly, we're just seeing Uniswap, on Velodrome, on a lot of these exchanges, just more and more volume, which is pretty cool to see.

但我认为即将发生的真正令人兴奋的事情是，PerpDex可能在本视频发布时已经上线，支持x y z功能。

But I think the real exciting thing that's about to happen is there's a PerpDex that perhaps by the time that this airs will be live, up down that x y z.

他们的重点确实是作为链上效应的永续合约平台。

And their focus really is on just being a perp tax for on chain effects.

所以

So

将 Up Down XYZ 作为永续合约平台的名字，真是个绝佳的命名。

Up down XYZ as a name for a perp tax is just a great name.

干得漂亮。

Well done.

我也很喜欢。

I love it as well.

是的。

Yeah.

在许多方面，这都堪称天才之举。

It's it's genius in in many ways.

而且，我认为这里的理念是，第一，如果你想对冲货币风险，你就需要类似 Cryptex 的东西。

And, you know, I think the thesis there is, you know, one, if you want to hedge currency risk, you need something like a cryptex.

而这将促成这一点。

And so that will enable that.

但此外，如果你对日内交易或加密货币投资感兴趣，我推测你可能比以往更清楚你的本币相对于其他货币的表现。

But also, arguably, if you're interested in just day trading or kind of investing in crypto, I would postulate that you probably have a better sense of how your local currency will perform relative to other currencies.

当你思考某个迷因币可能表现如何时，情况也是如此。

Then you might have when you think about how some meme coin might perform.

对吧？

Right?

说到迷因币，通常是一些内部人士或小团体在决定这些币的方向。

Like when it comes to meme coins, it's usually kind of insiders, cabals that are deciding the direction of these things.

而说到OnionFX，我认为更多是经济市场力量在驱动国家之间的交易。

If when it comes to OnionFX, it's I think it's more the economic market forces driving trade between countries.

你可能对这种情况的发展有相当不错的判断。

And you probably have a fairly good sense of how that's going.

因此，从某种角度说，尤其是当你加入杠杆时，因为显然这些波动相对较小。

And so arguably, especially if you add leverage because obviously these swings are relatively small.

但如果你通过Perplex添加杠杆，这可能会对那些可能比在其他一些特别是模因币类资产上拥有更多阿尔法收益的激进投资者产生吸引力。

But if you add leverage through a perplex, suddenly this becomes interesting for perhaps the degen crowd who might have again a little bit more alpha than they would on some of these other especially meme coin type assets.

所以我对这个非常期待。

So I'm really excited for this.

它将24小时不间断运行。

It's going to run twenty fourseven.

它将对全球所有人开放。

It's going to be accessible to everyone in the world.

希望它能为定制的资产对提供更高的效率。

Hopefully it'll be more efficient for bespoke pairs of assets.

对吧？

Right?

比如，如果你想通过对应银行系统从尼日利亚奈拉兑换成巴西雷亚尔，我认为你最终要支付大量费用。

Like if you want to go from the Nigerian naira to the Brazilian real through the correspondent banking system, I think you're going to end up paying a lot of fees.

我认为链上交易在这方面会高效得多。

I think on chain can be a lot lot more efficient for that.

然后，如果你再加入一个永续合约去中心化交易所，你就能开始做一些真正有趣的事情。

And then if you add a perp dex, then you can start doing some really interesting things as well.

所以是的，我真的很兴奋，而且我们越来越多地看到，Sello上稳定币交易量中，来自这些不同稳定币之间互换的比例正在上升。

So yeah, I'm I'm really excited and yeah, increasingly we're seeing a bigger percentage of stablecoin volume on on sello coming from these swaps between these different stablecoins.

我想这让我想到了两件事。

I guess this makes me think of two things.

比如，一是如果你的论点——我认为这也是Bankless的核心观点——是所有金融都会上链。

Like, one is if your thesis, which I think is part of the bankless thesis, is all finance goes on chain.

对吧？

Right?

加密货币还没完，伙计们。

Crypto is not done yet, guys.

它才刚刚起步而已。

It's not it's, like, barely even started.

如果你想想链上外汇交易的数万亿美元规模，如果你相信这一切最终都会迁移到链上。

If you think of the quadrillions in on chain FX, if you believe all of that is going to end up on chain.

为什么？

Why?

因为链上交易费用更低，随着时间推移流动性也更好。

Because on chain is lower transaction fee, you know, better liquidity over time.

我们才刚刚触及链上外汇市场的0.00001%。

We are 0.00001 of the way in the on chain FX market.

我们才刚刚开始。

Like, we're just getting started.

这个加密货币的事情绝对还没完。

There's no way this crypto thing is done.

明白吗？

Alright?

这是我想到的第一点。

Like, that's one thing I was thinking of.

我想到的另一点是，好吧。

The other thing I was thinking of is, like, okay.

但我们真的听不到这些现有势力的最后声音了吗？

But, like, have we heard the last of the incumbents here?

当我提到现有势力时，我指的是许多新兴市场国家，它们的本币疲软，政府可能不像我们或它们的民众那样热衷于去中心化金融和开放金融这个概念。

And when I when I say incumbents, I'm I'm talking about, you know, like, countries, a lot of countries in emerging markets that have weak local currencies and governments that maybe they're not as excited about this whole DeFi open finance thing as we are and as excited as their people are.

为什么？

Why?

因为它们必须而且也希望将民众锁定在一种货币体系中，以便征税。

It's because they have to and they want to lock their people into a currency system in order to tack tax them.

对吧？

Right?

这还涉及格雷欣法则，即劣币驱逐良币。

There's this whole, you know, Gresham's law thing, which is bad money tends to drive out good money.

所以当你在市场上流通着一种比本地交易单位更优质的货币时，比如美元——对许多国家来说，美元就像一种顶级掠食者的货币资产。

And so when you have a good money in circulation, a better money than your local unit of exchange, say you have dollars, which is like for a lot of countries, it's like an apex predator currency asset.

明白吗？

Okay?

因为美元流动性太强了，而且相对于你们本国货币来说相对稳定。

Because it's just so damn liquid, and it's relatively stable relative to your own local currency.

当你能轻松获取美元时，除非别无选择，否则你为什么要用本国货币呢？

When you have access to dollars and it's just a tap away, why would you even use your local currency unless you absolutely had to?

而开放金融让你不必非得用本国货币。

And Open Finance makes it such that you don't have to.

你可以直接使用美元。

You could just use dollars.

因此，我们正看到一些国家、政府和银行系统——很多时候它们是一体的——试图打压这种趋势，试图加以限制。

And so we're seeing some early signs of some countries and some governments and some banking system, and oftentimes they're one and the same, try to push this out, try to restrict it.

对吧？

Okay?

这显然与一个开放自由的社会相冲突，在这样的社会中，所有公民都能访问互联网并下载他们想要的任何东西。

And that runs at odds, obviously, with a an open free society where all citizens have access to the Internet and they can download everything they want.

我在想，你是否认为这将是未来需要应对的一场斗争。

I'm wondering if you see that as a battle to fight in the future.

也许你已经在某些地方开始与之抗争了。

Maybe you're fighting it in pockets already.

你对此怎么看？

And what you think about that?

比如，从某种层面来说，我们所设想的加密货币愿景是每个人都能摆脱银行，拥有自己的钱包，并使用任何他们想要的货币。

Like, at some level, this crypto vision that we have of everyone has the ability to go bankless and have their own wallet and use whatever currency they want.

是的。

Yeah.

但世界各国政府会阻止他们这样做吗？

But will governments around the world stop them from doing that?

对。

Yeah.

我认为本地稳定币将发挥非常重要的作用。

I think this is where local stablecoins will play a really big role.

我认为，拥有一种与你日常开支和你对世界的认知相匹配的计价单位，仍然具有价值。

I think there still is value to having a unit of account that just matches your day to day expenses and and the way you think about the world.

除非你生活在完全美元化的国家，否则对很多人来说，不断在这两种货币之间兑换始终是个麻烦，尤其是当汇率不断波动的时候。

Is, unless you live in a country that's fully dollarised, it is always a chore for a lot of people to have to constantly try to convert between these two currencies, especially if the exchange rate keeps changing.

所以我认为，对于某些类型的交易，人们会乐意继续使用本国货币。

So I think for some types of transactions, I think people will happily stay in their local currencies.

也许他们不会用这些货币来储蓄。

Maybe they won't save in those currencies.

这正是我的意思。

That's what I mean.

这正是我的意思。

That's what I mean.

好的。

Okay.

这就是格雷欣法则，即劣币驱逐良币，意味着人们会把良币储存起来，而不愿流通。

So that's the Gresham's Law thing, which is bad money tends to drive out good money out of circulation, which means the good money, they store and they keep.

而对于劣币，人们则乐于花掉。

The bad money, they're happy to spend that.

他们会一整天都花掉这些钱。

They'll spend that all day.

我会用稳定币储蓄，但去杂货店时，我会把稳定币兑换成当地货币然后花掉。

I'll save in stablecoins, but then I'll go to the grocery store and spend those stablecoins converted to my local currency and spend that.

这未必是政府想要的。

That's not necessarily what governments want.

这也不是银行想要的。

That's not what banks want.

他们需要财富留在当地货币中，以便通过通胀稀释它，本质上就是征税。

They need the wealth to stay in their local currency in order to inflate it away, in order to tax it essentially.

而这与个人的意愿相悖。

And that runs contrary to like what an individual wants.

你明白我的意思吗？

You see what I mean?

在某些地方，存在这种权衡。

There's this trade off in places.

完全正确。

Totally.

我认为布赖恩·阿尔姆斯特拉最近在达沃斯就这个问题发表了看法，他因此获得了不少赞誉，尤其是他的一句名言。

And I think Brian Almstrach actually addressed this in Davos recently and he's been getting a lot of credit about one of the quotes he made.

他在谈论加密货币如何几乎成为对全球央行的一种制衡机制。

You know, he's talking about how crypto almost is a like a check and balance on central banks globally.

对吧？

Right?

如果央行行为不当，只会促使更多人转向加密货币。

Like if a central bank misbehaves, then that only pushes individuals into crypto more.

但如果他们不这样做，我觉得也没问题。

But if they don't, then I think it's fine.

因此，我真诚地希望所有人都能上链。

And so I think my sincere hope is that everyone will go on chain.

人们仍然可以使用本地稳定币来以自己的账户进行思考。

There will still be local stablecoins for people to think in their own account.

拥有本地货币对商业很有用，因为你可以用它们轻松应对贸易逆差。

It's useful for commerce to have local currencies because you can adjust to trade deficits easily with them.

我认为，只要中央银行不疯狂印钞，所有东西仍然可以共存。

And I think as long as central banks aren't printing insane amounts of money then I think everything can still coexist.

如果他们真的这么做了，那么人类历史上第一次，人们将拥有选择权，并能够真正采取行动。

And if they do, then ultimately for the first time ever people will have a choice and will be able to actually do something about that.

在我看来，这正是加密货币的全部意义所在。

And I think that to me is just really what crypto is all about.

确实如此。

It really is.

这是一个尚未被充分讲述的故事。

And it's an untold story.

这是关于加密货币本质的被低估的故事。

It's an undertold story of what crypto is about.

这是一种自由技术。

It's a freedom technology.

我认为在西方，人们有时看不到这一点。

And I think sometimes in the West, like, people don't see it.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

比如，Celo 在做什么，全球的稳定币正在做什么，它们通过提供一种替代方案，来输出这种选择和自由，并让政府官员和中央银行承担责任。

Like, what, you know, Celo is doing, what stablecoins are doing around the world to export this choice and this freedom and to hold government officials and central banks accountable by having an alternative.

这是一种退出的权利。

It's the right to exit.

这是一件美好的事情，也绝对是让我们对这个领域感到兴奋并投身其中的原因。

It's a beautiful thing, and it's definitely why we're excited about this space and why we're in it.

我想问你一个问题，关于你之前提到过的一件事，那就是加密货币似乎已经开始专注于稳定币层，我们这么叫吧。

Wanna ask you a question about, you know, something that, yeah, you've referred to earlier, which is seems like crypto has really started to focus on the stablecoin stack, let's call it.

我们之前谈到了 Tron。

And so we talked about Tron earlier on.

这里还有一些其他竞争者。

There's some other competitors here.

所以最近Polygon做了一件事，他们在某种程度上也推出了一条专门的稳定币区块链。

So there's Polygon has done something recently where they have sort of a a stablecoin blockchain as well at some level.

现在他们又收购了一些法币入金类型的公司。

And now they've gone and they've acquired some on ramp type companies.

你可以看到他们正在垂直整合，扩展到整个技术栈的上层。

And that you could see they're kind of verticalizing, let's say, and, like, expanding up the stack.

当然，在另一端，你有像Stripe的Tempo这样的项目。

And then, of course, on the other side, you get projects like Tempo from Stripe.

Stripe当然已经拥有法币入金通道和相关的开发者工具。

Now Stripe already has the Fiat on ramps, of course, and the dev tools for that.

那他们在做什么呢？

And what are they doing?

他们缺少的是区块链。

They they're missing the blockchain.

所以他们正在构建自己的区块链。

So they're building their own blockchain.

他们在开发Tempo，这就是他们的整个技术栈。

They're building Tempo, and that's kinda their stack.

现在我看到Celo也在与此竞争，Celo最初是从区块链起步，现在正与MiniPay合作，拓展入金通道和钱包应用。

And now I see Celo competing against this, which is Celo started with the blockchain, is now partnering for the on ramp and the wallet app with with MiniPay.

但某种程度上，这些技术栈都颇为相似。

But at some level, all of these stacks are somewhat similar.

这里出现了一些融合趋势。

There's some convergence here.

一个从这个方向扩展，另一个从另一个方向延伸，但本质上都是在构建完整的技术栈。

One comes from one direction, another from another, but it's kind of a building out of the stack.

我不禁想，你对这些有什么看法？比如我们最近看到的Tempo和Stripe的组合，还有Polygon与入金通道的结合。

I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on that, like some of the other plays that we've seen recently, the Tempo and Stripe thing, the Polygon with with on ramps.

你觉得Circle和Arc呢？

Do you think or even even Circle with Arc.

它们是稳定币发行方，现在也正试图进入区块链领域。

So they're a stablecoin issuer, now they're trying to get into the blockchain game as well.

你认为什么会在这里成功？

What do you think is gonna work here?

你有没有看到我所看到的这种趋同现象？

Do you think there's are you seeing the convergence that I'm seeing here?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，Tempo 确实是个值得注意的案例，说实话，我很惊讶他们没有选择 L2 路线。

I mean I think Tempo is definitely something that, you know, I was surprised to see they didn't go the l two route.

我认为这可能会拖累他们。

I think that will probably hurt them.

作为一个从 L1 转型为 L2 的链，我对任何推出 EVM 兼容的替代 L1 都感到惊讶。

As a chain that transitioned from an L1 to an L2, I'm just surprised when anyone launches an EVM compatible Alt L1.

我认为这样的时代应该很快就会过去。

I think those days shouldn't be long behind us.

如果你要推出 EVM，就应该把它作为 L2 来发布。

If you're launching EV machine, you should launch it as an l two.

我认为如果Tempo成功了，它将转型为一个L2。

I think if Tempo is successful, it will transition to become an l two.

我怀疑它会成功，但可能最初只会在美国实现。

I suspect that it will be successful, but probably only in in The US initially.

嘿，Bankless社区。

Hey, Bankless Nation.

我是David。

It's David.

如果你听到这段话，那是因为你在收听免费的Bankless播客频道。

If you're hearing this, that's because you are listening to the free Bankless podcast feed.

你知道吗？还有一个付费的Bankless RSS频道。

Did you know that there is a premium Bankless RSS feed?

付费频道包含我为个人研究进行的额外访谈，以及一些我想深入探讨的关于加密行业的问题——这些问题我希望能找到答案，以便在Bankless Ventures以及我个人的投资组合中成为更知情的投资者。

The premium feed has extra interviews that I do for my own personal research and just deeper questions that I want answered about the crypto industry, questions that I want to answer so I can be more informed as an investor both at Banklist Ventures and also just in my own personal portfolio too.

此外，付费频道没有广告，这意味着如果你选择收听付费频道而非免费频道，每年你能节省大约二十个小时的时间，因为你直接支持了Bankless。

Also, there are no ads, which means if you listen to the premium feed instead of the free feed, you'll get about twenty hours of your life back every year because you choose to support Banklist directly.

所以，如果你希望获取更多额外内容，同时跳过广告，或者只是欣赏我们所做的工作并希望我们继续下去，我们非常感谢你注册 Banklist 会员，详情链接在节目说明中。

So if you're interested in getting extra content all while skipping the ads or you just appreciate what we do here and want us to keep doing it, we'd appreciate it if you signed up for Banklist premium, and there is a link in the show notes to get started.

祝大家 2026 年一切顺利。

Cheers to a good 2026.

在加密货币领域，很少有人在公开预测顶部或底部时真正押上真金白银。

Few people in crypto put real skin in the game when they make public top or bottom calls.

DeFi 报告就是其中之一。

The DeFi report is one

其中之一。

of them.

在 10 月 10 日闪崩前一周，DeFi 报告的迈克尔发邮件给他的全部订户，表示将大幅降低风险，将大部分加密资产抛售并转为现金。

The week before the October 10 flash crash, Michael from the DeFi report emailed his entire newsletter saying he's going aggressively risk off and sold the majority of his book from crypto into cash.

当时以太坊价格约为 4000 美元，比特币价格为 11000 美元。

This is when ETH was about $4,000 and Bitcoin was a 110.

迈克尔运营着 DeFi 报告——一个以数据、周期洞察、风险管理、透明度，最重要的是，以真金白银投入为基础的行业领先研究平台。

Michael runs the DeFi report, an industry leading research platform built on data, cycle awareness, risk management, transparency, and most importantly, skin in the game.

我们在Bankless很喜欢Michael。

We like Michael at Bankless.

我们喜欢他的分析，这就是为什么你大约每个月都能在Bankless播客上听到他。

We like his analysis, and that's why you hear him on the Bankless podcast about once a month.

DeFi报告正在为Bankless的听众提供一个月的免费访问权限。

And the DeFi report is giving Bankless listeners one free month of access to the DeFi report.

所以，如果你正在寻找一些敏锐、以数据为驱动的分析，以便对你的投资组合做出更明智的决策，你可以在DeFi报告专业版中了解Michael是如何预测顶部的，以及他接下来的计划。

So if you're looking for some sharp, data driven analysis to make better informed decisions around your portfolio, you can learn why and how Michael called the top and what he's doing next all in the DeFi report pro.

去看看吧。

Check it out.

链接在节目说明中。

There is a link in the show notes.

我们能就这一点多聊一会儿吗？

Can we camp on that for a second?

比如，为什么是L2？

Like, why an l two?

那为什么不是 L1 呢？

Like, why why why not an l one?

你为什么这么强调这一点？

Like, why do you say that so emphatically?

我的意思是，以太坊继续作为一个 DeFi 的场所。

I mean, Ethereum is continuing to be, you know, just a place for DeFi.

对吧？

Right?

不管其他任何所谓的 Alt+1 如何努力竞争，都无济于事。

It's It just doesn't matter how much any other kind of Alt plus one is trying to compete.

流动性持续流向以太坊，而随着这些以扩展为中心的 Alt 路线图，现在任何链都有一种方式——你不必是 EVM 兼容的，但如果你是 EVM 兼容的，那么同时接入流动性以及以太坊围绕所有 L2 建立的网络效应，就更是显而易见的选择了。

Liquidity continues to go to Ethereum and with the Alt scaling centric roadmap, now there is just a way for any chain you don't have to be EVM compatible but if you're EVM compatible it's even more of a no brainer to tap into both liquidity but also into the network effects that Ethereum is formed around all of the L2s that have been created.

我认为，目前可能感觉成为 L2 并没有带来太多优势，因为我们还没有实现 L2 之间，或者 L2 与主网之间的出色互操作性。

And I think maybe right now it doesn't feel like being an L2 gives you that much because we don't yet have incredible interop between l twos or between mean net and l twos.

但这一点将在未来一两年内得到解决。

But that's going to be solved in the next year or two.

我认为，随着以太坊在缩短区块时间、降低最终性方面投入越来越多的努力，再加上零知识技术的惊人创新，所有二层网络都将能够完全在以太坊上验证自己的链，并实现六秒的最终性。这意味着你可以在以太坊和这些二层网络之间、以及二层网络彼此之间发送消息，从而释放当前生态系统中大量的流动性。

I think increasingly all of the effort on lowering block times, on reducing finality on Ethereum coupled with all of the amazing ZK Tech innovation will effectively mean that all L2s will be able to fully validate their chains on Ethereum and have like six second finality And that means that you'll be able to send messages between Ethereum and these L2s and between L2s and other L2s and that means you'll be able to send a lot of this liquidity that exists today in the ecosystem.

所以对我来说，这简直显而易见。

So to me, it just seems such a no brainer.

这正是我们上个月如此努力为 Sello 添加零知识技术的原因之一。

I mean, it's one reason why we worked so hard on adding ZK to Sello last month.

我觉得你们在某个节目中讨论过这个。

I think you guys talked about this in one of your shows.

Sello 今年已经进行了第四次硬分叉。

Sello had its fourth hard fork of the year.

去年我们真的度过了极其精彩的一年。

We really had quite an incredible year last year.

第一次硬分叉自然是转型为二层网络。

The first hard fork being of course the transition to becoming an L2.

之后我们又进行了两次相当重要的分叉，而第三次则尤为关键——我们加入了简洁支持，现在你可以使用零知识证明来实现错误证明。

Then we had two more pretty meaty ones and then the third one was super meaty where we added succinct support and now you can do fault proofs using ZK proofs.

所以我们有一个与Mega ETH非常相似的ZK错误证明系统。

So we have a ZK fault proof system very similar to Mega ETH.

我们还使用了类似于Mega ETH的Eigen VA。

We also use Eigen VA similar to Mega ETH.

但与Mega ETH不同的是，我们的成本更低，并且在L2Beet上被评为最优，截至上个月（12月），我们在Optome和Bilidium分类中位列第一。

But unlike Mega ETH, we're cheaper than them and we're rated on L2Beet and they put us at the top of the Optome and Bilidium tab as of last month, as of December.

所以，是的，如果你喜欢类似MegaEase的东西，那你一定会喜欢Snowlo。

So, yeah, if you like something like MegaEase, you know, you're definitely gonna like Snowlo.

我认为它比Perl更安全、更便宜，而且同样具有可扩展性。

I think even more more secure as Perl to beat cheaper and, you know, I think equally scalable.

非常欣赏你们的架构选择。

Really like the architecture choices.

你们整合了我认为以太坊在这里提供的最佳方案。

You're incorporating kind of the the best of, I think, that's that Ethereum offers here.

但我还想就一件事向你提问，Merrick，因为你刚才说这简直是不言而喻的。

But but I wanna push you on something, Merrick, because you just said it was a no brainer.

明白？

K?

所以这是显而易见的。

So no brainer.

但那些决定推出 EVM L1 的人，我知道他们都很聪明。

And yet the people making the decision to launch EVM l ones, I know they've got brains.

这些人都是非常聪明的。

These are some smart people.

而你就是其中之一。

Which you were one.

这是 Stripe。

It's Stripe.

明白吗？

Okay?

而且这不仅仅是 Stripe。

And it's it's not just Stripe.

是Paradigm团队。

It's the Paradigm folks.

他们很聪明。

They're smart.

他们是原生加密货币人士。

They're crypto native.

他们知道自己在做什么。

They know what they're doing.

是Circle，一家原生加密货币公司，他们在做EVM一层链。

It's Circle, a crypto native company, and they're doing an l one EVM.

有时候我会想，好吧。

And sometimes I think, okay.

有时候我会想，像你一样，然后我就想，好吧。

Like, sometimes I think like you, and I'm like, okay.

他们为什么要做这件事呢？

Like, why could they be doing this?

哦，一定是还存在的 L1 代币溢价。

Oh, it must be the l 1 token premium that still exists.

这正是一个理性行为者会做的事。

That would this is what a rational actor would do.

你拿到这种代币后，可以稍微通货膨胀一下，而且这种代币确实有某种溢价，这么做价值更高。

You get this kind of token you can kind of inflate, and there's, like, sort of a premium associated with that, and it's just, like, worth more to do it.

你总可以以后再变成 L2，那为什么不在还能的时候充分利用 L1 的溢价呢？

You can always become an l two later, and so why not milk the l one premium while you can?

但另一些时候，我想，嗯，这些人都很聪明，他们总是给我一些技术性的解释。

And then and then other times, I'm like, well, you know, these are smart people, and they they keep giving me technical answers for this.

你知道，以太坊做不到 X Y Z，或者我们不想依赖以太坊的速度之类的。

You know, Ethereum can't do x y z, or we don't wanna be dependent on Ethereum speed or something like this.

总之，我只是想提出不同意见，因为这些人很聪明。

Anyway, I just wanna push back because these are smart people.

他们很有头脑。

They have brains.

显然，Tempo团队在宣布L1方向时遭遇了大量质疑。

Obviously, the Tempo team got a lot of pushback when they announced the l one direction.

我认为，马特公开表示，最终性是一个重要原因。

Matt, I think, publicly came out and said, you know, finality is a big reason.

我们专注于支付。

We're payments focused.

我们需要快速的最终性。

We need to have fast finality.

这其中确实有一些道理。

And you know there's some truth to that.

Solo作为L1时拥有单块最终性，后来我们转型为L2，现在必须等待以太坊的最终性，而你知道，这可能需要长得多的时间。

Solo had one block finality as an L1 and then we transitioned to becoming L2 and now we have to wait for Ethereum finality, which as you know can take quite a bit longer.

所以我认为，最终性这个理由是站得住脚的。

And so I think you could argue the finality reason.

当然，以太坊正在努力实现一到两个区块的最终性，并致力于缩短区块时间。

Of course, Ethereum is working to add one or two block melody and it's working towards shortening its block time.

所以这个问题很快就会消失。

So that problem will go away soon.

因此，他们要么不想等，要么不相信这会发生，要么只是把这当作一个技术理由，但实际上另有原因。

And so either they didn't want to wait for that or they didn't believe that that would happen or they're using this as a technical reason, but really it's something else.

也许只是因为参与L1项目让人兴奋，对吧？

Maybe it's just the excitement of having working on an L1, right?

我认为对很多人来说，仍然觉得作为L1与以太坊竞争比作为L2更容易。

I think for a lot of people there's still this idea that it's easier to compete against Ethereum if you're an L1 and not an L2.

但我认为这最终可能只是自尊心作祟，随着以太坊改进其最终性，所有这些网络效应带来的好处变得对每个人来说都显而易见。

But I think that's ultimately maybe just ego and as Ethereum improves its finality, as the benefits of all of those network effects that are being created just become so obvious to everyone.

我认为以太坊最终会吸引所有人。

I think Ethereum will just pull everyone in.

我坚信以太坊将成为整个互联网的结算层，而不仅仅是Web3。

I have just a lot of conviction that Ethereum will become the settlement layer of the whole Internet, not just Web three.

这需要一些时间，但网络效应非常强大，这件事一定会发生。

And it'll take a while but network effects are powerful and it's going to happen.

但在我们这边，例如，我们长期以来一直在应对这个最终性问题，因此现在我们实际上正在与Espresso合作，利用Espresso系统重新实现两秒的最终性。

But on our end, for example, we've been grappling with this finality question for a while and so now we're actually working with espresso to add two second finality back using the espresso system.

这利用了Espresso的经济保障，当然，这些保障与以太坊相比微不足道。

And so that's using espresso economic guarantees, which obviously are, you know, nothing compared to Ethereum.

我认为我们在这一方面可以接近以太坊的水平。

I think we can touch Ethereum on that front.

但对于小额交易，你可以拥有这些保障。

But for smaller transactions, can have you can have these guarantees.

而如果你真的在转移十亿美元，你也可以等待通过Cello的最终性确认。

And then if you really, you know, are moving a billion dollars, you can you can wait for it through infinality on Cello as well.

让我们谈谈这里最后一块拼图——self.xyz。

Let's talk about this last piece of the puzzle here, self dot x y z.

这块拼图对Cello意味着什么？你们是如何利用它的？

What puzzle what puzzle pieces this represent for Cello and how are you guys leveraging

是的。

Yeah.

对我们来说，这一切都是为了将所有人带入加密世界。

So for us, this is all about onboarding everyone into crypto.

你知道，只要全球版Venmo还没上Celo，我们就不会停下脚步。

You know, we we're not gonna stop until global Venmo is here and it's on Celo.

为了做到这一点，我们需要将全世界的人纳入进来。

And to do that, we need to onboard everyone in the world.

我们不能只吸引那些懂加密、狂热者或对当前加密技术感兴趣的人。

We can't just onboard crypto savvy or degens or people who are excited about what crypto is today.

而我们能将他们带入的唯一方式，就是通过激励措施。

And the only way we'll be able to onboard them is through incentives.

我认为你必须使用激励手段。

I think you're going to need to use incentives.

激励措施一直是公司吸引用户的主要手段。

Incentives have primarily been the mechanism that companies have used to onboard folks.

但在Web3世界中，当你提供激励时，人们利用系统漏洞的可能性要高得多。

But when you offer incentives in a Web three point world, your ability for people to game you is just so much higher.

这真的非常非常困难。

It's just really really hard.

所以我们需要非常完善的公民保护机制。

And so we need really good civil protection.

讽刺的是，比特币最初是基于一种公民抵抗机制，而权益证明则是另一种非常好的机制。

And it's ironic that Bitcoin obviously started with kind of a civil resistance mechanism and proof of stake was another really good one.

但这些机制只对那些有足够资金来运行挖矿节点或质押资本的人有效。

But that only works for people with basically money either to run mining nodes or to stake capital that they have.

如果你想让每个人都能加入，就需要一种适用于所有人的公民抵抗机制。

If you want to onboard everyone, you need to be able to have a civil resistant mechanism that works for everyone.

我认为，World 在为全人类提供接入方面有着独特的设计。

And I think you can argue that World has an interesting design for for, say, onboarding the whole world.

因此，当我们思考 SELF 时，我们希望设计出一种同样有吸引力、但可能采取了略微不同方法的方案。

And so when we thought about SELF, we wanted to do something that I think was equally compelling but maybe took a slightly different approach.

也许它能弥补基于硬件方案的一些不足。

Maybe that addressed some of the shortcomings of the hardware based approach.

归根结底，要让全世界所有人都加入，就需要让人们接触到物理硬件。

At the end of the day, to onboard everyone in the world, the world needs to get people in front of physical hardware.

这意味着他们必须旅行。

And that means they have to travel.

这意味着存在大量的摩擦和障碍。

That means that you have to there's just a lot of friction.

这涉及整个供应链，而且

It's a whole supply chain And

因此，我们想做的是，借助当今人们最信任的人类身份验证方式。

so instead, what we wanted to do is we wanted to piggyback on the most trusted attestation of humanhood that people have today.

而目前，这就是你的生物识别身份证，要么是生物识别护照，要么许多国家现在正在发放生物识别国民身份证。

And that right now is your biometric ID, either your biometric passport or many countries now are issuing biometric national IDs.

这些在现实世界中通常是验证你独特性和人性的最有效方式。

And these tend to be just in the meat space the best attestation of your uniqueness of your humanity.

这很酷的一点是，这些生物识别技术之所以有效，是因为它们通过一个证书颁发机构链，最终指向国家层面的认证，由你的本国政府证明该身份证是有效的。

And what's really cool about this, what makes these things biometric is that they effectively have a signature through kind of a certificate authority chain leading up to country wide certificate that basically attests by your home country that this ID is valid.

所以只有少数人知道，如今的现代护照上都印着一个小的生物识别护照标志。

And so a few people know this but you know modern passports today they have this little biometric passport logo on them.

那是一个带有小圆圈的矩形图案。

It's a little rectangle with a little circle in it.

这意味着你的身份证里有一个微型芯片。

That means that there is a microchip in your ID.

越来越多的国家身份证也具备这一功能，通过NFC可以读取该证件，而NFC读取的数据包含一个签名，用以证明你身份证的真实性。

You have this also for national IDs increasingly and the ID can be read by NFC and data that you read by NFC includes a signature that basically proves the authenticity of your ID.

因此，Self本质上是一种零知识护照协议，能够在链上证明你拥有有效的身份证。

And so what self is, is it's a ZK passport protocol effectively that proves on chain that you have a valid ID.

这很酷的一点是，你可以将身份验证中的第三方移除。

And what's cool about this is you can take the third party out of ID verification.

通常当你验证身份或注册Coinbase时，Coinbase会使用某个第三方服务，而你会把你的身份证信息提供给这个第三方。

Usually when you verify your ID or you're signing up for Coinbase, Coinbase has some third party that they use and you're kind of giving your ID information to some third party.

他们查看你的证件，判断它是否看起来像是伪造的。

They're looking at it, they're saying does it look like it's forged or not.

如果不是，那么他们会证明你拥有有效的身份证件。

If not, then you know they attest that you have a valid ID.

现在有了智能合约，就可以在链上完成这一过程，而无需第三方。

Well now with smart contracts, can do that on chain without that third party.

你只需在智能合约中验证签名的正确性，这非常棒，因为你不必把数据交给可能丢失或被黑客攻击的人。

You can just verify the correctness of the signatures in a smart contract And that's pretty cool because you don't have to give your data to someone who might lose it, might get hacked.

最近我们看到了大量KYC数据泄露事件，这在许多方面都令人真正感到恐惧。

We've seen just an incredible amount of KYC data hacks lately that are honestly truly frightening in many ways.

但更棒的是，你还可以使用零知识证明来实现。

But even better than that, you can do it in ZK.

因此，你可以验证这些数据的真实性，并在不泄露个人信息的情况下，证明关于你自己的某些声明。

So you verify the authenticity of this data into your knowledge and then you can prove statements about yourself into your knowledge without having to reveal your personal information.

而这正是Self的最终目标。

And so that's ultimately what self is.

它在公民抗争方面尤为出色，能够利用人们当前已有的身份凭证，无需面对实体设备，就能帮助数十亿人便捷地接入加密世界。

It's primarily great for civil resistance which is primarily amazing for onboarding billions of people into crypto using rails, IDs that people have today without requiring to go get in front of physical hardware.

但它实际上还有更多可能性，因为你可以在零知识的前提下使用可验证凭证。

But it's also actually so much more because you can, in zero knowledge, do verifiable credentials.

你可以证明关于自己的某些陈述，而无需泄露任何其他信息。

You can prove statements about yourself without revealing anything else.

因此，一个相当有趣的用例是，你可以证明自己已达到某个年龄。

And so one pretty interesting use case is you can prove you're over a certain age.

我们正看到全球范围内越来越多的监管措施，旨在保护未成年人免受社交媒体或成人内容网站的影响。

We're seeing a lot of regulation globally that's protecting minors either from social media or from adult content sites.

但它们通过KYC来执行这些规定，我认为这可能是错误的做法。

But the way that they're enforcing that is through KYC, which is I think probably the wrong move.

像自我验证这样的技术，可以让你证明自己已满18岁，而无需向任何人透露你的生日。

Something like self allows you to prove that you're over say 18 without even revealing your birthday to anyone.

另一个有趣的用例是证明你不在OFAC制裁名单上。

Another cool use case is proving that you're not on the OFAC list.

当你领取空投时，越来越多的项目方开始担心制裁法律问题。

If you're getting an airdrop increasingly more projects are worried about sanctions law.

我们可以证明你不在OFAC名单上，而无需个人透露任何关于自己的信息。

We can prove that you're not on the OFAC list without revealing without the individual having to reveal anything about themselves.

因此，有很多非常酷的应用场景。

And so there's a lot of really cool use cases.

有些非常严肃，属于Web3范畴，有些则更接近Web2。

Some very serious, very web three, some more web two.

还有一些有趣的用例，比如你可以用零知识证明自己的发色。

And then there's also just like fun ones, like you can prove your hair color in zero knowledge.

所以如果你想发行一种真正的金发币，你可以做到。

So if you wanna do a true blonde coin, you could

我的身份证上的发色信息是错的。

My hair color is incorrect on my ID.

我的身份证上写的是黑色。

My ID says it's black.

黑色？

Black?

你可以，是的，你可以为一次理发申领空投

You could, yeah, you could claim an airdrop for for a haircut

因为拥有黑发。

For having black hair.

和你实际的发色不一样。

Different than your actual Mhmm.

但我的意思是，确实有很多有趣好玩的事情可以在这方面的应用。

But But I mean, yeah, there's, like, cool fun things you could do on that front.

你肯定可以搞一个David币。

You know, you could definitely do a David coin.

实际上，你们俩都应该搞一个David币或者Ryan币。

Actually, both of you should do, you know, either David coin or Ryan coin.

然后免费提供给其他David和Ryan。

And then for free to other Davids and other Ryans.

我们确实有一个由220人组成的Dave DAO。

We do have a Dave DAO of 220 people.

是的。

Yeah.

但你

But you

你并不知道他们就是Dave。

don't know that they're Dave.

这倒是真的。

This is true.

我们不知道那个站点

We don't know that station

嗯。

Mhmm.

那是经过零知识证明确认他们确实是Dave的。

That is ZK verified that they are actually Dave's.

里面可能有一些冒充的Ryan。

You could have some imposter Ryans in there.