为什么近端NRR ETF与众不同 | Hunter Horsley 和 Sal Ternullo

Bankless Nation，我是和Sovereign的Sal一起在这里。

Bankless Nation, I'm here with Sal from Sovereign.

Sal在五六个月前我们请他上节目聊Sovereign和NEAR之后，现在又回到播客了。

Sal's going back onto the podcast after we had him on five or six months ago to talk about Sovereign and NEAR.

Sal，欢迎回到Bankless。

Sal, welcome back to Bankless.

谢谢你邀请我，David。

Thanks for having me, David.

我还请到了Bitwise的Hunter。

And I also am joined by Hunter from Bitwise.

Bitwise刚刚发布了，我相信是首个NEAR ETF。

Bitwise just released the first, I believe, Near ETF.

Hunter，恭喜你，也欢迎回到Bankless。

Hunter, congratulations on that, and also welcome back to Bankless.

谢谢。

Thank you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

很高兴和你们在一起。

Fun to be with you guys.

或者，Hunter，这是你第一次来Bankless吗？

Or, Hunter, is this your first time on Bankless?

我们通常请Matt和Ryan来。

We usually have Matt and Ryan on.

这是你第一次来吗？

Is this your first time?

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

那有可能。

That might be possible.

我不太确定。

I don't I don't know.

感觉有点奇怪。

Seems odd.

感觉不太对劲。

That feels wrong to

不过我很高兴你说得对。

me, but I'm glad you're right.

去查一下档案吧。

Look into the archive.

不管怎样，很高兴你能来。

Either way, it's a it's a pleasure to have you on.

对。

Yep.

好。

Okay.

我们只是……

We just...

NEAR刚刚获得了Bitwise发行的第一只ETF。

NEAR just got its first ETF from Bitwise.

这是今天的主题，不过我也想再多聊一点关于NEAR作为国库资产的话题。

That's the topic of the day, but I also wanna just talk a little bit more about NEAR as a treasury asset.

我们第一次在Bankless上讨论这个，是跟Sal一起，就像我刚才提到的，大概四五……

The first time we talked about this on Bankless was with Sal, as I mentioned, four or five...

我想应该是二月份的时候。

Back in February, I think.

萨尔，那段让我……

Sal, the sound bite that I...

至今仍在脑海中回响的话，大意是说，基于目前人类对 Near Blockchain 和 Near Intents 的使用情况，我认为在当前的普及水平下，Near 的价值被低估了两到四倍，这还远远没有考虑到 AI 智能体或 Near 处于人工智能与加密货币交汇点所带来的影响。

Is reverberates in my brain to this day was you saying something along the lines of based off of the current human usage of the Near Blockchain and Near Intents, I think Near is two to four x underpriced at current human level of a...

普及程度，而且这一切都发生在 AI 智能体或 Near 处于人工智能与加密货币交汇点的相关讨论之前。

Levels of adoption, and that's gets before anything around AI agents or how Near is at the intersection of AI and crypto.

当时你说 Near 的价格是一美元多一点，而今天它刚触及 5.5 美元后，交易价格略低于 5 美元。

When you said that Near was a dollar and some change or something and just trading today just shy of $5 after hitting $5.5.

所以，Sal，你确实值得称赞，你走在了前面。

So you gotta tip the hat to you, Sal, for being ahead of the curve here.

跟我说说，给我讲讲过去四五个月里，随着NEAR的活动和意图大幅增长，你的生活有什么变化？

Tell me, just give me give me the last, simulation of your life in the like, four or five months as NEAR activity and intention has just crescendoed so much.

说实话，感觉……

I mean, honestly, it feels...

而且我觉得不只是我。

And I think it's not just for me.

整个生态系统，整个开发者社区都有这种感觉。

It's to the entire ecosystem, the entire developer community.

有大量的精力和努力都集中在建设和推进NEAR上。

There is an incredible amount of energy and effort that is focused on building and advancing near.

在整个生态系统中，我觉得每个人都感受到了市场的认可和肯定。

And across that entire ecosystem, I think everybody has felt some validation and vindication from the market and recognition.

现在我有幸作为代言人，代表我们对这个资产的共同信念发声，看到价格走势这么好，我当然很高兴。

Now I get the fortunate opportunity to be a spokesperson speaking on behalf of our shared conviction around the asset, and I'm happy to see obviously how prices have shaped out.

但确实感觉现在是个关键时刻，我们需要抓住势头，继续扩大Intents产品和Near AI方面的规模。

But it definitely feels like a moment where we need to seize momentum and continue to scale both the Intents product and the Near AI side.

所以我也很期待深入这些方面。

So excited to get into those things as well.

那么，Hunter，随着Near真正获得了大量势头，加上最近几周和几个月的价格走势，Bitwise推出了Near ETF。

Now, Hunter, as soon as Near really caught a bunch of momentum and with the price action rate in recent weeks and months, Bitwise comes in with a Near ETF.

也许人们只是表面上看，然后说，好吧。

Maybe people are looking at that at at a surface level and saying like, okay.

嗯，Near引起了关注，所以Bitwise立刻发行了ETF。

Well, Near's got attention, so Bitwise issues the the ETF immediately.

也许情况确实如此，但我认为这低估了Bitwise在Near生态系统中长期以来的深度参与。

Maybe maybe that's the case, but I think that, underserved how integrated Bitwise has been in the Near ecosystem and has been for a long time.

也许你可以给我和听众们讲讲Bitwise与Near合作的历史。

Maybe you could just illustrate for me and the listeners the history that Bitwise has had with Near.

所以，我真的很高兴在……

So I mean delighted at at...

在这个旅程的这个节点，Bitwise Near ETF已经上线了，基金代码是NRR，但你说得对。

For this juncture of the journey where the Bitwise Near ETF, which has the fund ticker NRR, is live, but you're right.

我们观察Near已经很久了。

Have have observed Near for a long time.

我们看到了Sal在Sovereign做的事情，团队出色的执行力，以及社区长期的信念。

Saw what what Sal was doing with Sovereign, the incredible execution of the team and conviction of the community for a long time.

我们写了一年多前的机构研究覆盖和估值分析，还在欧洲推出了一个ETP。

We wrote institutional research coverage and valuation analysis, I believe over a year ago now, introduced an ETP in Europe.

然后通过我们业务的链上解决方案部分，我们直接作为质押服务提供商为网络做贡献。

And then through the on chain solutions part of our business, started contributing to the network directly as a staking provider.

今天，我相信我们是Near上第四大的验证者，然后也有机会通过MPC参与Intents的工作。

Today, I believe the fourth largest validator on on Near, and then had the opportunity to work also on Intents with an MPC.

然后，最终，最近最热门的进展就是NRR的推出，以及ETF的开放，为投资者参与Near提供了一条途径。

And then, ultimately, the the more the more recent and and topical development, which is the introduction of NRR and the opening of an ETF as as an avenue for for investors to participate in Near.

所以，你知道，我认为Near是加密领域最令人兴奋的团队和项目之一，我们一直这么觉得。

So, you know, I I think that Near is one of the most exciting teams and and projects, for lack of a better term, in the crypto space, and we felt that way for a long time.

这些事都不是一夜之间发生的。

These things didn't didn't happen overnight.

所以，我们非常高兴能以不同的方式为这个我们认为潜力巨大的项目做出贡献。

So so very delighted to get to contribute in different ways to what we think has such great potential.

你觉得Bitwise对Near协议的参与以及这种亲力亲为的做法，是不是很典型？

Would you say that the involvement that Bitwise has with the near protocol and being kinda hands on, is that typical of...

比如，你们对以太坊也是这样吗？

Like, do you do that with Ethereum, for example?

比如，你们运营一个……

Like, you run a run a...

你们有质押运营商，所以可能和以太坊有些类似的地方。

You guys have a staking operator, so maybe there's some corollary stake here with Ethereum.

你们是怎么发现这些机会，然后决定这么深入参与的呢？

How do you identify opportunities to go so hands on?

而且，是什么驱动你们这么做的？

And, you know, what what motivates this?

我们非常乐意尽可能深入地参与其中，我觉得这是很和谐的。

We we love being as involved as as we can, and I I think it's it's it's harmonious.

你知道，归根结底，退一步看，Bitwise 管理着大约 160 亿美元。

You know, ultimately, taking a step way back, Bitwise manages something like $16,000,000,000.

这些都是别人的钱。

It's other people's money.

我们是长期看多的。

It is long bias.

也就是说，从最高层面来看，对 Bitwise 和我们的客户来说，最好的事情就是 Near 或其他加密资产和生态系统能够发展得好，有机会成长为最有可能的最佳形态。

Meaning, at the highest level, the best thing for Bitwise for our clients is that Near or other crypto assets and ecosystems do well and have the opportunity to grow into, the best version of what's possible.

所以，其中一部分当然是让投资者通过 ETF 这样的解决方案获得投资机会，投资者也可以通过 Sovereign 获得机会，这是另一个很好的途径。

So a component of that is, of course, allowing investors access through solutions like, like an ETF, and investors have been getting access through Sovereign as well, which is another great avenue.

但与此一致的是，如果有……

But consistent with that also is if there's...

如果有办法通过运行验证器等方式为生态系统的健康和成功做出贡献，比如了解生态系统的发展方式，我认为 Near 尤其执行得非常出色，并且产生了许多令人兴奋的、有很好应用的发展。

If there are ways that we can contribute to the health and success of the ecosystem through running validators, for instance, understanding the ways that the that the ecosystems are developing that, you know, near near, I would say, in particular, has executed incredibly and has produced many exciting developments that have great usage.

当然，Near 就像一艘突破性的火箭船。

Near intense, of course, being a a breakout rocket ship.

我们想做所有这些事情。

We wanna we wanna do all those things.

所以，我的意思是，Bitwise 并不是加密货币领域最大、最重要的机构。

So, I mean, Bitwise is not the the largest and most important institution in crypto.

我们大约有150人，你知道，我们可以……

We're about a 150 people that, you know, we we we can...

不能做所有事情，但只要我们能做到，我觉得这是一种荣幸，而且这也非常符合客户对我们的期望，我们努力保持参与，并为ETF投资者所投资的项目成功做出贡献。

Can't do everything, but to the extent we can, you know, I think it's a it's a privilege, and it's also very aligned with what clients want from us that we we try to be connected and contributing to the success of the things that ETF investors are, are investing in.

Sal，你在Sovereign确实非常非常亲力亲为。

Sal, you are intentionally very, very hands on at Sovereign.

这基本上就是Sovereign的整个理念：持有大量NEAR，同时像拥有整个系统的股权一样去发展NEAR，因为从某种程度上说，你确实拥有很多NEAR，所以也算是拥有股权。

That's kind of the whole thesis of Sovereign is to own a bunch of NEAR, but also grow NEAR as if you own an equity stake in the whole entire system because in a way you kinda do because you own a bunch of of Near.

所以你非常亲力亲为。

So you are hands on.

这就是Sovereign背后的理念。

That's the thesis behind Sovereign.

说说你的看法吧，Bitwise和你们并肩作战是什么感觉……

Give me your perspective of what it's like to have had Bitwise also shoulder to shoulder with...

在NEAR生态里和你们并肩作战。

Shoulder to shoulder with you inside of Near.

说实话，这真的非常棒。

I mean, it's it's honestly been awesome.

我觉得Hunter提到的机构买方研究覆盖的起点，是基于目标市场的视角，这确实开始重新引导了原生流动性基金和对冲基金对这个资产及其潜力的关注，尤其是在加密和AI融合的背景下。

I think the starting point that Hunter talked about on the institutional kind of buy side research coverage took a target market based view that I think really started to reorient, you know, native liquid funds, hedge funds around the asset and the potential in the context of the convergence of crypto and AI.

那是个大胆的时刻。

It was a bold moment.

你知道，当时并不是……

You know, it was not...

那时候我们在市场上的表现并不好。

We're not performing well in markets at that time.

我记得NEAR当时的价格是一块三毛钱。

I think NEAR was trading at, a dollar and 30¢.

要对项目有根本性的理解，了解团队的经验、执行模式、产品里程碑，这样才能思考他们瞄准的市场，并开始围绕这个来评估估值预测。

And to have the fundamental understanding of the project, you know, experience with the team, the execution model, the product milestones that can lead you to think about the market they're going after and start to underwrite valuation projections around that.

从我的角度来看，这非常有吸引力。

Super compelling from my perspective.

当然，这在很多投资者对话中都用到了。

Certainly used in a number of investor conversations.

我们显然会利用自己的研究，但这里面有固有的偏见，因为我们不是横向看各个生态系统的。

We obviously leverage our own research, but there's an inherent bias associated with that where we are not looking horizontally across ecosystems.

我们特别关注NEAR。

We're focused on Near specifically.

但我觉得真正让Bitwise成为生态系统如此重要合作伙伴的，是那些基础设施层的组件。

But I think what really defines why Bitwise is such an important partner for the ecosystem is those infrastructure layer components.

他们实际上和我们以及验证者社区一起在运营这个网络。

They're actually operating the network alongside us and the validator community.

他们在运营MPC网络和链签名，这是支撑他们意图的基础原语。

They're operating the MPC network and chain signatures, which is, you know, the foundational primitive powering their intents.

我觉得这让合作达到了一个不同的层次。

And I think that takes alignment to a different level here.

所以我们非常非常期待Hunter和团队推出NRR。

So we're super, super excited for Hunter and the team on the launch of NRR.

说实话，从你发的推文来看，头三天Hunter在资金流入方面表现相当不错。

And, candidly, I think the first three days based on your tweets, Hunter looked pretty good on the Inflow side.

所以很期待看到市场需求真的得到验证。

So excited to see the market demand actually prove out here.

太棒了。

Incredible.

太棒了。

Incredible.

而且，你知道，而且它……

And and, you know, and it...

不是每种资产都这样。

It's not true of every asset.

所以在前三天，我觉得大概有5000万资金流入NRR。

So in the in the first three days, I I I think something like 50,000,000 of inflows into NRR.

而且，你知道，有时候我会发一些推文，比如很高兴看到投资者的信心，我觉得我昨天就发了。

And, you know, sometimes I'll I'll tweet something along the lines of, you know, delighted to see the conviction from investors, which I think I tweeted yesterday.

说实话，我确实是这么想的。

And that's honestly how I feel.

你知道吗？

You know?

我……

I've...

没人需要买任何东西，而且没人买Bitwise的ETF是为了接触Bitwise。

Nobody needs to buy anything, and nobody's buying a Bitwise ETF for exposure to Bitwise.

他们买是因为有信心，并且想要接触near。

They're buying it if they have conviction and and want want exposure to near.

所以看到这么强烈的反响，我觉得非常令人兴奋，而且这对一个ETF来说是一个非常强劲的开局。

So to see the strong response, think, is is incredibly exciting, and and it's a very strong start for for an ETF.

每次有Bitwise的人来我们节目，我都喜欢问一个问题：向外界谈论这些资产是什么感觉？

Whenever we have somebody from Bitwise on the show, I always enjoy asking the question, what's it like to talk about these assets to the outside world?

那些不听Bankless、不在加密推特上的人，他们明白加密货币是一个合法的资产类别，他们可能应该在这方面进行多元化配置。

The the people who, you know, don't listen to Bankless, who aren't on crypto Twitter, understand that crypto is a legitimate asset class, and they should probably be diversified in that direction.

他们有像Bitwise这样的公司提供ETF和ETP，可以纳入他们的投资组合。

And they have people like Bitwise offering ETFs and ETPs to include in their portfolio.

所以我觉得当你们推出比特币ETF时，我们请你们上节目问过这个问题。

So I think when you guys launched the Bitcoin ETF, we had you on and ask you this question.

以太坊ETF也是一样，就是：你怎么解释NRR，也就是Bitwise Near ETF？

Same thing with the Ethereum ETFs, which is just like, how do you explain NRR, the Bitwise Near ETF?

你怎么向普通投资者解释，让他们更了解自己买的是什么？

How do you explain it to the average end investor who wants to know a little bit more about what they're buying?

所以，你知道，你们有比特币ETF。

So, you know, you got the Bitcoin ETF.

他们可能知道比特币，也有以太坊ETF。

They probably know Bitcoin, they have the Ethereum ETF.

那Near ETF在投资组合里扮演什么角色呢？

How does a Near ETF fit into somebody's portfolio?

其实有很多不同的方式来看待这个问题。

There's there's a lot of a lot of different approaches.

我觉得，嗯……

I I think with with...

我想说的东西太多了。

There's so many things I wanna say.

首先，我想说的是，Bitwise和客户之间的对话，与其说是教授讲课，不如说是助教辅导，就像你回想一下上学时的情景。

The first thing I wanna say is that a conversation for Bitwise with a client is less like being the professor and more like being the TA, if you think back to school.

我们会从客户或合作伙伴的现有认知出发，而每个人的起点可能都不一样。

But we start wherever wherever the the partner or the client is at, and and that can be a lot of different a lot of different places.

我觉得我们的工作不是像Ilya或Sal那样才华横溢，而是努力去理解对方，站在他们的角度去沟通。

And I think our our job is is not to be as as brilliant as Ilya or Sal, but to try to meet people where they are.

所以，你知道，这是我要说的第一点。

So that, you know, that I would say number one.

实际上，会议之间的差异很大……

So actually, there's a lot of variation in the conferences...

抱歉，是对话之间的差异，目标始终是帮助客户向前迈一步，让他们觉得有用。

Sorry, in conversations, and the goal is always to just to help the client step forward and feel things are useful.

我要说的第二点是，我觉得我们……

The second thing I would say is that I think that we're...

我们已经走出了币市值排名的时代，也就是说，很多新进入这个领域的投资者，主流投资者、财富管理经理、机构、你的叔叔阿姨们，他们不再根据coinmarketcap.com上的相对排名来组织不同的加密资产。

We've we've we've moved on from the coin market cap era, which is to say that, you know, many of the new investors in the space, mainstream investors, wealth managers, institutions, your uncles, they they don't organize different crypto assets based on their relative ranking on, coinmarketcap.com.

他们听说过比特币，可能还知道其他几个。

They've heard of Bitcoin, maybe a few others.

他们不知道这些资产之间的关系。

They don't know the relationship between these things.

而且我认为，Near实际上与当今投资者关心的事情有很强的联系。

And and I think that that Near actually has very strong connection to what investors today care about.

大家都知道，AI 显然是现在投资者、经济等各个领域最热门的话题。

AI, you know, to to say the obvious, is the main topic of everything for investors, the economy, and so on and so forth.

对于 Near 来说，你可以这样介绍它：大语言模型的联合发明者创建了一条区块链，不仅帮助个人使用 AI 并在链上转移资产，其架构还允许智能体（agents）也能做到这一点，而且发展速度非常快。

And with Near, you you have the opportunity to to introduce it by saying the co inventor of LLMs has created a a blockchain that helps individuals use AI and move assets across the blockchain, but also is architected so that agents can do so as well and is growing like crazy.

这不需要别人去成为加密货币基础设施细微差别方面的博士，或者对金融系统的未来有某种宏大的愿景。

That doesn't require that somebody become a PhD in, you know, the the nuances of of crypto infrastructure or a vision of a different future of the financial system.

我觉得这点非常强大。

I think that's very powerful.

所以我觉得，这就是Near……

So I I think that that's something that that near...

你知道的，对于主流投资者来说，这真的是它的优势所在。

You know, in the context of the mainstream investor really really has going for it.

那它怎么融入投资组合呢？你知道的，这真的完全取决于具体情况。

Then how does it fit into a portfolio that, you know, it really it really depends.

这真的取决于具体的投资者。

It really depends on on the investor.

我觉得2026年的主题是，投资者已经对比特币感到熟悉，开始把目光投向比特币之外，寻找其他想接触的资产。

I think the theme of 2026 is that investors have gotten comfortable with Bitcoin and are looking beyond Bitcoin at what else they want exposure to.

而且我认为NEAR绝对是这个故事里的一流候选者。

And I think NEAR is a first class candidate for for what will be part of part of that story.

我觉得NEAR作为资产之所以有趣，其中一个原因就是链上原生产生的一些收入，比如通过NEAR Intents和Confidential Intents。

I think one of the things that makes NEAR interesting as an asset is some of the revenues that is produced natively by the chain through NEAR Intents, confidential intents.

萨尔，既然你在这儿，能不能给我们简单讲讲NEAR Intents和Confidential Intents，它们到底是怎么为NEAR区块链创造价值的，还有……

Maybe, Sal, just because we have you here, can you kinda just give us the one zero one on Near Intents, Confidential Intents, how that actually captures value for Near the blockchain, and that...

这最终会变成什么，对NEAR这个资产在经济上有什么影响？

What what that turns into, how that economically impacts Near the asset?

非常乐意。

Happy happy to do that.

顺便说一句，亨特，讲得真棒。

And by the way, Hunter, great pitch.

如果让我回到几年前的经验，我会……

If I was rewinding multiple years in my experience, I would...

那对我来说会非常打动人心，也很有共鸣。

That would land and resonate very well with me.

所以我觉得在投资者买方参与方面，我可以从你身上学到不少东西。

So I think I can learn a a thing or two from you on on my own investor kind of buy side engagement there.

说到Intents，David，我记得上次我们聊过这个。Intents框架的核心想法是，用户表达他们想要达成的目标或愿望，然后让一个由解决者组成的市场来帮他们实现这个目标。

So intense, David, I think we talked about this when we were on the last time, but the intense framework is really the idea of a user expressing the outcome that they aim or wish to achieve and then allowing for a market of solvers to solve for that outcome.

目前已经实现的功能，基本上就是基础数字资产之间的兑换。

And so what has been implemented today is effectively basic digital assets to digital asset swaps.

而最近几周，随着Ondo和400种代币化股票产品的推出，现在可以在任何数字资产和任何代币化股票工具之间进行兑换。

And now recently in the last several weeks with the introduction of Ondo and 400 tokenized equity products, the ability to swap between any digital asset and any tokenized equity instrument.

你会看到这个规模还在不断扩大。

You'll see that continue to scale.

目前，这主要是由人工操作来驱动的。

Right now, it's been driven by human interactions.

NEAR Intents的重点包括一个第一方应用叫near.com，今天刚刚推出了一个新的用户体验，我在这次通话前看了一下，真的非常棒。

NEAR Intents focuses both on a first party application called near.com, which actually just today dropped a new user experience that I was looking at before this call and it's incredible.

我也建议你们俩都去看看。

I also encourage you both to check it out.

但更重要的是，B2B分销合作伙伴。

But more importantly, B2B distribution partners.

所以NEAR Intents已经与多家钱包提供商集成，从Ledger到Zodle以及Zcash生态系统，这使得资产之间的交换能够无缝进行。

And so Near Intents is implemented with a number of different wallet providers from Ledger to Zodle and the Zcash ecosystem, which enables the seamless interaction to swap between assets.

但同样，目前它主要还是聚焦于人工交互。

But, again, right now, it's very much focused on human interactions.

在这些人工交互背后，我们在系统上处理了超过320亿美元的交易量，并且开始以类似于中心化交易所的方式，逐步提高每笔交易的费率，这既推动了NEAR Intents产生的总费用，更重要的是，以净收入为基础，为协议带来了留存收入，这推动了NEAR代币的回购，这些代币被存放在一个永久资本工具中，目前并未销毁，需要明确的是。

Behind those human interactions, we process more than 32,000,000,000 in volume on the system and are starting to scale the take rates in each of those transactions in a similar manner to what you would conceptualize for a centralized exchange venue, and that's driving both gross total fees generated by NEAR Intents but more importantly retained revenue to the protocol on a net revenue basis which is driving buybacks of Near tokens that are held in a permanent capital vehicle and not being burned today to be clear.

所以我们非常兴奋地看到这将如何发展，不仅是在NEAR Intents上支持的资产范围和产品种类会扩大，更重要的是，正如我们之前讨论过的，真正实现背后的代理机会，这将以10倍的乘数效应而非线性方式增长。

So we're super excited to see where this goes as not only the asset scope and kind of spectrum of supported products expands on near intents but more importantly as we've discussed in the past really realizing the agentic opportunity behind this where this scales not on a linear basis, but on a, you know, 10 x multiplier outcome.

随着Intents交易量和使用的增长，有没有一种概念，比如NEAR会变成通缩的？

With growth in intense volume and usage, is there a notion of, like NEAR being deflationary?

这是否会影响NEAR代币的经济模型，还是说会进入质押收益？

Is that how it impacts the economics of the near the token or does it go into the staking yields?

那这些收益最终是怎么回到代币上，让终端用户受益的呢？

How does it actually come back into the token for the end user?

这个问题问得好。

It's a good question.

我们发布了一份关于通缩阈值的报告，不过我觉得在下一版报告里，我们会修正其中的一些内容。

And we put out this report looking at the deflationary threshold, which I think we're going to correct in our next iteration of our report.

你知道，在经济学和供需体系的语境下，通缩这个词有非常明确的含义。NEAR 的净收入回购并没有被销毁，而销毁机制在 Hyperliquid 这样的生态里很常见。

You know, deflationary has a very explicit meaning in the context of economics and kind of supply side, demand side systems where the NEAR that's being purchased back on a net revenue basis is not being burned, which is the mechanic that you oftentimes see in ecosystems like like hyperliquid.

这些 NEAR 是保留在协议内部的。

That NEAR is being retained in the protocol.

所以我觉得，随着时间推移，当我们思考这个机制会带来什么时，它实际上是在系统里形成了一个需求吸收池，把 NEAR 从流通供应中抽走。未来，它可能还会为激励架构提供资金，就像我们最近在 NEAR 治理论坛上提议的那样——考虑在两年内通过线性曲线把通胀率从 2.5% 降到 1.6%。但更重要的是，在第二阶段，我们会开放学术和技术研究流程，去探讨围绕 NEAR 实现固定供应资产是否可行。

And so I think over time as we contemplate what that looks like, that is a demand sink on the system that is removing near from circulating supply and may in the future fund incentive architecture like what we are proposing very recently in the near governance forums to think about, again, reducing inflation from 2.5% to 1.6% over a two year linear curve, but really on the second phase, opening up the academic and kind of technical research process to think about whether or not it's feasible to ever contemplate a fixed supply asset around Near.

这个问题我目前没有答案，但我正在推动生态和合作伙伴们认真思考这件事。

I don't have the answer to that question, but I'm challenging the ecosystem and our partners to really think through it.

而且，显然，如果我们最终能达到那样的状态，那么产生的收入回购的 NEAR 就可以用于激励设计，以确保经济安全、去中心化等等。

And, obviously, if we end up in an end state like that, you know, revenue that's being generated and buying back Near could be used in the incentive design to ensure economic security, decentralization, etcetera.

好的。

Okay.

所以你是……

So you are...

你是在……

You're...

你做的事情，其实是在抛出一个信号，嘿。

What you're doing is you're kinda throwing a flag at the, hey.

“通缩”这个词在这里可能不太合适。

The deflation word might not make the most sense here.

实际情况是，NEAR 产生了收入，这些收入被用来回购，但不是销毁，而是回购并移出流通供应，进入一个临时的持有工具，之后我们会根据情况，以最合适的方式重新引入到 NEAR 系统中。

What is happening is there is revenue being generated from near intense that is going to buying back, not burning, but buying back and removing from supply into kind of this temporary holding vehicle where we will reintroduce it into the near system maybe in some way as we've determined the fitness and the most appropriate nature to do with that at a later point in time.

但不管怎样，回购是实实在在的。

But nonetheless, the buybacks are still real.

是不是这样……

Is that...

这样总结可以吗？

That is a way to summarize that?

对。

Yep.

然后重新引入的想法很大程度上是……

And then the idea of reintroducing is very much a...

如果社区、生态系统和验证者集合决定朝那个方向走的话。

If the community and ecosystem and validator set decides in that direction

我们可以把它重新引入到销毁地址。

We could we could reintroduce it to the burn address.

没错。

Exactly.

我们完全可以这么做。

We very much could.

比如，社区可以决定，嘿。

Like, the community could decide that, hey.

这些积累起来的NEAR，我们应该直接烧掉。

All this NEAR that's accumulated, we should just burn it.

但我希望我们能建立一个真正专注于NEAR价值积累的系统，并且独特地思考我们与其他第一层生态系统相比的差异化。

But my hope is that we can get to a system that is really focused on value accrual to NEAR and thinking uniquely about kind of the differentiation that we have versus other l one ecosystems.

我认为其中一个差异化就是现在在Intents上看到的真实收入和真实的产品市场契合度，而且很快，我认为你会开始看到很多关于Near AI方面的数据，讲述同样的故事。

And I think one of those is obviously real revenue and real product market fit right now at Intents, and soon, I think you'll start to see a lot of data on the Near AI side that tells the same story.

我交易加密货币差不多十年了，用过很多不同的钱包、交易所、聚合器和前端。

I've been trading crypto for almost a decade, and I've used so many different wallets, exchanges, aggregators, front ends.

我基本上一直在寻找同样的东西，就是一个界面，跨多条链和资产提供深度流动性，让我能接触永续合约等市场，赚取收益，保密交易，同时还能完全控制我的资金。

And I'm basically always looking for the same thing, just one interface with a deep liquidity across a bunch of chains and assets where I can access markets like perps, earn yield, trade confidentially, and still control all of my funds.

我从来没有真正找到过，总是切换钱包，处理燃气费，或者被滑点吃掉利润。

I've never really found it, and I'm just always switching wallets, juggling gas fees, or getting eaten by slippage.

但near.com给我的感觉根本不同。

But near.com feels fundamentally different to me.

我可以从任何链做任何我想做的事，并且保持所有活动保密。

I can do anything I want from any chain and keep all of my activity confidential.

加密货币、代币化资产、永续合约、支付。

Crypto, tokenized assets, perps, payments.

我甚至还能保密地赚取收益。

I can even earn yield confidentially.

一个账户覆盖30多条链，默认保密。

One account over 30 chains, confidential by default.

这才是加密货币该有的样子，而且它由NEAR驱动，NEAR已经跨链转移了超过300亿美元，使用后量子签名，主网运行五年多零停机。

It's the way that crypto ought to work, and it's powered by NEAR, which has moved over $30,000,000,000 cross chain, uses post quantum signatures, and has run over five years on mainnet with zero down time.

Near.com是在链上操作并保持控制的最佳方式。

Near.com is the best way to be on chain and be in control.

通过节目笔记中的bankless链接在near.com上获得20%的交易费返还，这不是投资建议。

Get 20% of your trading fees back on near.com using the bankless link in the show notes, not investment advice.

Bankless的伙伴们，我们为你们打造了一些东西。

Bankless nation, we've built something for you.

隆重推出Bankless MCP。

Introducing the Bankless MCP.

Chad GPT和Claude在很多事情上都很厉害，但如果你问他们一些超出加密货币基础的问题，比如协议机制、代币经济学，或者只是上周加密货币发生了什么，他们的短板就会暴露出来。

Chad GPT and Claude are great at a lot of things, but ask them anything beyond the basics of crypto about protocol mechanics, tokenomics, or just what happened last week in crypto, and the gaps will start to show.

问题在于上下文。

The problem is context.

而Bankless这边，花了将近十年的时间，建立了全球最深的加密货币数据档案之一。

Bankless, on the other hand, has spent almost a decade building one of the deepest archives of crypto data anywhere.

超过2000份播客文字稿，10000篇文章，还有无数与真正在建设这个行业的人的对话。

More than 2,000 podcast transcripts, 10,000 articles, and countless conversations with the people actually building this industry.

现在，我们把所有这些数据整合进了Bankless MCP。

And now we've structured all of that data into the Bankless MCP.

你可以把它连接到你的Claude或ChatuchuBT，然后你的AI就能回答你的加密货币问题，背后有整个Bankless档案库支持。

So you can go and connect it to your Claude or ChatuchuBT, and suddenly your AI can answer your crypto queries with the entire Bankless archive behind it.

而且每一篇新的Bankless文章或节目都会自动添加，所以上下文会一直保持最新。

And every new Bankless article or episode gets added automatically, so the context keeps staying up to date.

Bankless MCP只对Bankless高级订阅用户开放。

Bankless The MCP is exclusively available to Bankless premium subscribers.

所以你可以去bankless.com，升级到高级版，几分钟内就能连接MCP，然后你问AI大模型的所有加密货币问题，不管用的是什么，都会好上一千倍。

So you can go to bankless.com, upgrade to premium, and connect the MCP in just a few minutes, and all of a sudden, your crypto queries to your AI LLM, whatever you use, will get a thousand times better.

快去看看吧。

So go check it out.

节目说明里有链接。

There is a link in the show notes.

一旦你成为Bankless高级会员，就可以加入Bankless的Discord，告诉我你的使用感受。

And once you become a Bankless premium member, you can hop into the Bankless Discord and let me know how you like it.

有个好消息。

Some exciting news.

我们正在推出一档新播客，帮大家搞懂加密货币周期，以及如何应对。

We are launching a new podcast to help people figure out the crypto cycle, how to navigate it.

我认识的最厉害的加密货币周期投资者，他叫Michael Nato。

The best crypto cycle investor I know, his name is Michael Nato.

他运营着DEFI REPORT。

He runs the DEFI REPORT.

就是这个人，在10月10号价格大跌之前给我发了卖出提醒。

This is the guy that sent me a sell alert before the 10/10 price drop happened.

他的周期分析一直都非常准确。

His cycle analysis has been absolutely on point.

我已经关注他好几年了。

I've been following him for years.

今年我们开始每周录制播客节目。

And this year, we started recording weekly podcast episodes.

每一期我们都会聊他的投资组合、他持有什么、市场结构、入场目标、比特币和以太坊的公允价值，以及我们现在处于周期的哪个阶段。

Each one, we get into his portfolio, what he's holding, the market structure, entry targets, fair market value of Bitcoin and Ether, and where we are in the cycle.

每周三都会发布新的一期。

There's new episodes that are released every Wednesday.

周三。

Wednesday.

每期大概三十分钟。

They're thirty minutes.

时间不长。

They're short.

内容很精炼。

They're punchy.

我觉得这轮加密货币周期比大多数周期都更难把握，所以让我们一起应对吧。

I think this crypto cycle is harder to navigate than most, so let's do it together.

去订阅这个播客吧。

Go subscribe to this podcast.

无论你在哪里收听播客，YouTube、Apple、Spotify，都可以搜索“DEFI报告”，或者查看节目说明里的链接。

Search the DEFI report wherever you get your podcasts, YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or find a link in the show notes.

现在有一期新节目在等着你。

There's a new episode waiting for you now.

好的。

Okay.

所以那个……

So that...

现在我们已经把 NEAR 的经济模型的基本原理讲清楚了，Hunter，这在 Bitwise NRR ETF 里是怎么体现的呢？

Now that we have, the one zero one and two zero one of near the economics on the table, Hunter, how does this work in its way into the Bitwise NRR, ETF?

所以这里有一个质押的部分。

So there's a staking component.

讲讲这在 ETF 里是怎么运作的吧。

Talk about the way that this expresses itself here.

我觉得 Sal 刚才说的对 NRR 的投资者来说有两个方面很重要。

I I I think what what what Sal was describing is relevant in two ways for investors in in NRR.

首先，当然也是最简单的，就是 ETF 会代表投资者处理质押。

I mean, the the the first, of course, and simple is is that the ETF handles staking on behalf of of investors.

这样就少了一步，少了一个需要他们做对的决策，我觉得这对投资者来说是个好处。

So it's one less step, one less decision that they have to get right, and I think that that's a that's a benefit to investors.

但退一步讲，我觉得更广泛地说，Sal 提到的两个点对投资者非常有吸引力，至少我们是这么感觉的。

But then stepping back, I think I think that more broadly, two elements that that that Sal touched on are very compelling to investors, at least that's our our sense.

那就是不断增长的实际应用，通过价值捕获和之前提到的回购机制与投资者相连，我觉得到 2026 年，投资者已经逐渐成熟，开始期待这些了。

The fact that there is growing utility that connects to the investor through value capture and the buyback feature that was discussed, I think in 2026, that's something that investors have sort of matured into looking for.

而且从宏观概念上讲，我觉得这也反映了生态系统的健康程度，它没有僵化，而是充满活力。

And then also, of a high level concept, I think it's also indicative of the health of the ecosystem, that it hasn't ossified, but rather is dynamic.

而且我认为这在NEAR生态系统中体现在很多方面，有一个充满活力的社区，当然还有核心团队，他们一直在思考如何继续推进其目标、实用性和生态系统。

And and I think that that's that's evident in in so many ways in the near ecosystem, but there's there's a vibrant community and, of course, a core team that are thinking about how to continue to advance advance the purpose, usefulness, and ecosystem.

所以我觉得这些在2026年都很重要。

So I think those those things in 2026 matter.

我……

I...

你知道，我有点喜欢打个比方……

You know, I I kind of like to draw an analogy to...

如果你们回想一下2000年代初的互联网公司……

If if you guys think back to early two thousands Internet, Internet companies...

消费互联网公司当时非常新，人们谈论的是页面浏览量和眼球，那些有页面浏览量和眼球的网站。

Consumer Internet companies are very new, and people were talking about page views and eyeballs, websites that had page views and eyeballs.

而二十年后，人们……

And, you know, twenty years later, what people...

随着事物的发展成熟，人们开始关注更具体的指标和所追求的东西。

The way that things have matured is people have more specific metrics and things that they're looking for.

他们关注每用户平均收入，也就是ARPU。

They're they're looking for average revenue per user, ARPU.

他们关注日活跃用户数、月活跃用户数和留存率。

They're looking for daily actives, monthly actives, retention rates.

所以，随着时间推移，人们的理解不断加深，这也是一个行业走向成熟的一部分。

So the understanding has increased over over time, and and that's part of the maturing of a category.

我认为在加密货币领域也是如此，到2026年，这已经不是一个全新的领域了。

I think similarly in crypto, this is not a brand new space in 2026.

这个领域已经成熟，我认为看到开发者生态的健康状况是大家关注的重点。

The space has matured, and I think seeing the health of the develop...

人们会关注开发者生态系统的健康状况。

Of of the development ecosystem is something that people look at.

当然，他们也希望看到实际的应用场景。

They, of course, wanna see the use case.

他们想了解价值创造和价值获取的故事，这其实就是收入的另一种说法。

They wanna understand the story around value creation and value capture, which which is revenue by another name.

而且我认为NEAR在这些方面都有很强的实质内容，Sal已经展示了这一点。

And and I think Near Near has strong substance across all those dimensions, which which Sal illustrated.

那么，Hunter，给我讲讲NRR交易的第一天到第四天的情况。

So, Hunter, give me the day one through four, I think, of NRR trading.

我们现在还在第一周内。

So we're we're still in the first week.

你提到NRR的开局相当健康，相当强劲。

You mentioned it was a pretty healthy start, a pretty pretty strong start to NRR.

给我一些指标，以及你实际上是如何衡量成功的。

Give me some of the metrics and how you actually measure success.

有没有可能把它和以太坊、比特币、Hyper Liquid以及其他一些ETF进行比较，以及你是如何展示NRR的成功之处的。

Is it possible to, like, comp these to Ethereum, Bitcoin, Hyper Liquid, some of the other ETFs, and how how you illustrate success in NRR.

我觉得也许最容易的是和今年推出的其他ETF进行比较。

I I I think I think it's maybe easiest to to compare it to to other ETFs that have launched this year.

相比之下，这表现非常强劲。

It has been extraordinarily strong relative to that.

我不想具体点名，但确实有一些市值更大的资产，在它们今年推出ETF时，交易量和资金流入都不如这个。

I don't wanna sort of call out specific instances, but there are assets with larger market caps that are are trading less volume and have had less inflows when ETFs for those assets launched this year.

前三天，我还得等周五的数据，但前三天，我估计每天接近一千万美元的资金流入……

In the first three days, I have to wait to see the the results from Friday, but in the first three days, I believe close to $10,000,000 of inflows...

抱歉，是每天超过一千万美元的资金流入，日交易量在一千万到两千万美元之间。

Sorry, over $10,000,000 of inflows a day, volumes ranging from 10 to 20,000,000 a day.

对于一只ETF来说，这非常强劲，和今年其他单一加密资产ETF相比，也是相当出色的。

This is extremely strong for an ETF and very strong when compared to other ETFs launched for single crypto assets this year.

所以我认为，这很大程度上表明市场对Near敞口有需求，当然，从经验来看，也确实有投资者感兴趣。

So I think a lot of indication that there is demand for exposure to Near, and and then, of course, anecdotally, that there's interest as well.

所以我们对这个旅程的开端感到非常兴奋。

So we're we're very excited for the for the start of the the journey here.

它最终是一座桥梁，或者说一条管道。

It is ultimately a a bridge or a a pipe.

它让投资者能够接触到Near。

It allows investors to get access to Near.

Near是核心资产。

Near is the is the subject.

但能有这样额外的渠道打开，我认为对Near资本市场的成熟度来说是一件非常好的事情。

But to have this this additional pipe open, I think, is a is a great thing for the maturity of the capital market around around Near.

你怎么解释Near ETF在最初几天就取得的成功？

How do you account for the success in just the first early days of the the Near ETF?

我想其中一部分原因肯定是时机。

Part of it, I have to imagine, is timing.

比如，Near在加密货币市场中吸引了很多智能合约领域的关注，所以时机非常非常好。

Like, Near has captured the attention of a lot of the smart contract bid in the crypto market, so the timing has been very, very strong.

除了时机，还有其他原因可以解释为什么表现这么强劲吗？

Are there any other reasons that you can add into just, like, why the strength has been so good?

我觉得是……

I think it's...

我觉得时机总体来说真的很好。

I think timing timing is, in general, really good.

你明白吗？

You know?

就是……

It it...

即使在熊市，ETF 也有可能成功推出。

It's possible to have a successful ETF launch even in a bear market.

我们看到过 b hype 的例子，就是那个 hyper liquid ETF，它是在……

We saw that with b hype, the hyper liquid ETF, which launched in a...

在普遍是熊市的时候推出的。

In what was broadly a bear market.

所以……

So...

但是我觉得市场情绪有点转变了。

But but I I I think the market the market sentiment turning a bit.

你知道，我不会说我们现在处于一个狂热的牛市。

You know, I wouldn't say that we're in a in a raging bull market.

我们仍然，你知道，明显低于比特币的历史高点，我认为这决定了人们对这个领域的看法。

We're still, you know, meaningfully off of all time highs for for Bitcoin, which I think sets sets the the tempo for the perception of the space.

然后我认为我们也正处于一个重要的时刻，投资者之间关于人工智能的讨论很热烈。

And then I think I think also we're we're in an important moment with with the conversation about AI broadly amongst investors.

而且我认为NRR和Near总体上为许多投资者持有的一个论点创造了新的有趣机会。

And I think that NRR and Near in general create a new interesting opportunity around a thesis that a lot of investors have.

所以我认为这两件事，以及，你知道，希望……

So I think I think that those two things as well as, you know, hope...

希望我们努力做好提高ETF及其机会的知名度的工作。

Hopefully, we strive to do a good job of of raising awareness of of the ETF and and the opportunity.

而且我认为所有这些因素加在一起，为成功的可能性奠定了基础。

And I I think all those things taken taken together set it up for the possibility of success.

所以你在Near已经很久了。

So you've been in Near for forever.

现在你在Near，而Near已经有了ETF。

Now you are in Near when Near has an ETF.

谈谈这可能会如何改变Near在牛市中的动态。

Talk about how that might change just the dynamics of Near moving forward into a bull market.

如果我们，敲敲木头，正处于牛市的初期阶段，结束看起来是牛市的第一个或第二个，Near过去已经经历过两三次牛市了。

If we, you know, knock on wood, are at the beginning stages, ending looks one or two of a bull market, Near has seen two bull markets or three bull markets in the past.

你知道，Near并不是一个新的第一层区块链。

You know, Near is not a new a new layer one.

它是一个相当资深的第一层区块链，而且如果我没记错的话，你几乎全程都在。

It's a pretty veteran layer one, and you've been around for, like, the whole time if I if I remember correctly.

所以当我们带着AI进入这个新牛市时，这是自切片面包以来最令人兴奋的事情。

So as we go into this new bull market with AI, it's the most exciting thing since sliced bread.

现在我们有了Near的ETF。

Now we have a near ETF.

你觉得随着加密货币回归主流世界的一定相关性，这种动态对Near会有什么变化？

How do you just think that dynamic changes for near as kinda crypto returns to some semblance of relevancy to the mainstream world?

说实话，我很欢迎Hunter团队今天来播客交流，他们正在把不同的主题融合起来，从收入叙事到Ilya描绘的愿景，这些愿景正在Near AI的产品旅程中逐步实现，让用户能够自主掌控模型，而这一切都建立在第二到第三季度企业市场觉醒、开始担心前沿模型的知识产权和数据保密性的背景之上。

I I honestly say it's it's welcome to, like, to have Hunter team communicating as they are on this podcast today and kind of bridging the convergence of these different themes from the revenue meta to the vision that Ilya has painted that's being realized in kind of the product journey of Near AI to enable user owned sovereign control of models on the back of kind of the Q2 to Q3 arc where the enterprise market woke up and started to get concerned around IP and kind of data confidentiality as it relates to frontier models.

这感觉就像是时机上的完美契合。

It just feels like a perfect conflict of timing.

而且从整个生态系统的角度来看，欢迎一个管理着超过1.5万亿美元资产的成熟机构资产管理公司，来向公开市场上的新投资者群体讲述这个故事，是非常棒的。

And I think from the whole ecosystem viewpoint, welcome a sophisticated institutional asset manager with $1,516,000,000,000 plus in AUM helping to tell that story to a new investor universe on the public market side.

所以，你知道，显然我们自己也在做这件事。

So, you know, obviously, we were we were off doing that ourselves.

我们一直在做，但那是不同的平台。

We have been doing that, but it's a different platform.

我们是个小团队。

We're we're a small team.

我记得Hunter提到Bitwise那边有150人。

I think Hunter alluded to a 150 people that are working on the Bitwise side.

所以，我们张开双臂欢迎他们，也很高兴看到这个产品表现很好。

And so so welcome with open arms to to have them out here, and I'm glad to see that the product's done really well.