Zcash创始人谈隐私、人工智能以及ZEC为何是“加密的比特币” | Zooko Wilcox-O'Hearn

也许还是Facebook。

Maybe it's still Facebook.

嗯，是的。

But Mhmm.

在加密货币真正成功、取得一定程度的成功，足以激励传统金融和Web2采纳我们所创造的最有价值、最有用的功能，并将其规范化、整合到他们的技术栈中的前提下。

Under the conditions that, like, crypto is actually successful, has enough of a modicum of success that it incentives incentivizes TradFi and Web two to pull some of the best value, the best utility that we are producing out of crypto and then formalize it and integrate it into their tech stack.

这难道不是一种胜利吗？

Is that not a win?

这种胜利会不会也导致我们所谓的‘运动’走向终结？因为那不再是我们的东西，而是他们的东西，但我们的价值观依然获胜。

And is that a win that also leads to the demise of the what we call the movement because it's not our stuff, it's their stuff, but our values still win.

这不就是Linux发生过的情况吗？

Is is that kinda what happened with Linux?

你对这个怎么看？

What do you think about this?

嗯，我认为Linux最初就是这样发展的，我隐约记得一些讨论，让我想起你刚才说的那些。

Well, I I think that with Linux, it started like that, and and I kind of vaguely remember discussions that remind me of what you just said Mhmm.

比如在邮件列表上之类的。

On, like, mailing lists or something Mhmm.

二十年或四十年前，不管怎样。

Twenty or forty years ago, whatever was.

而就Linux而言，它并没有为最终用户带来额外的自由。

And with Linux, it has resulted in almost no additional freedom for the end user.

如果你想象一个非专业人士的最终用户——他们不是什么资深极客，只是个普通人，生活中有其他兴趣和优先事项，只想做一件事，比如安装一个新应用并使用它——我不确定今天Linux是否比从未存在过时，为他们提供了更多选择。

If you imagine an end user who's not a specialist, they're not a super shadow coder or whatever, they're just a normal person who has other interests and priorities in life, and they just want to do a thing, like install a new app and use it, I don't know if Linux is giving them any more options today than they would have had if Linux had never existed.

可以想象这种情况会这样发展：Facebook、华尔街或任何其他公司都可以使用这项技术，就像他们过去对Linux所做的那样，今天也对Linux这么做，同时却剥夺了用户选择其他替代方案的自由，设置了竞争对手进入市场的壁垒。

Could imagine that scenario going like that because the Facebook or Wall Street or whoever can use the technology, which is what they did with Lennox and do today with Lennox, while denying their users like, the option the freedom to exit, like alternatives, barriers to entry for their competitors.

他们完全可以省略这部分内容。

They can leave all that part out.

所以当你讲这个故事时，我在想，好吧。

So when you're telling that story, I was thinking, okay.

那是否意味着，即使只有10%的用户懂得如何操作，也足以对竞争对手形成压力，促使他们表现得更好？

Well, would that mean users unsophisticated users or sometimes if 10% of the users know how to do a thing, that is still enough pressure that it motivates the competitors to behave better.

其他90%的用户不会做这件事或者搞不懂，这也没关系。

It's okay if the other 90% of the users wouldn't do the thing or that wouldn't figure it out.

也许吧。

Maybe.

但无论如何，我的问题是，假设华尔街或脸书或任何其他机构打算采用加密行业率先推广的一些技术。

But, anyway, my question is, suppose Wall Street or Facebook or whoever is gonna adopt some technology that the crypto industry has pioneered.

这是否意味着他们的用户现在能够退出脸书，同时带走他们所有的社交关系图？或者能够确保AI限制自身，使他们的私人通信保持私密且对服务器、脸书或其他任何一方不可见？还是说并不会？

Would that mean that any of their users now have, like, the ability to exit Facebook while taking all their social graph with them or the ability to have the AI constrained to keep their private communications private and invisible to the server, the Facebook, or whatever, or would it not?

华尔街也是同样的情况。

Same with Wall Street.

我不太理解这些华尔街的技术东西。

Like, I don't understand this Wall Street technology stuff.

这会不会让投资者拥有某种能力，可以不依赖机构的许可就能为自己做得更好？还是说并不会？

Would it result in investors having some power to do something better for themselves without relying on the institution to allow them to do the thing, or would it not?

我不知道。

I don't know.

我看到加密行业和Linux行业的一个区别是，加密行业实际上有相当大比例的非技术用户。

One difference that I see in the crypto industry versus the Linux industry is that actually crypto has a pretty big proportion of nontechnical users.

我自己就是其中之一，早在2016年和2017年DeFi最糟糕的用户体验时期，我就已经在使用加密货币了。

You know, my myself being one of them, and I was using crypto when it was in its worst UX era ever in 2016, 2017, DeFi.

很多非技术用户涌入了加密领域，他们学会了完成必要操作所需的一点知识，比如记录助记词、管理私钥、避免钓鱼和跑路，这些虽然带点技术性，但依然可以掌握。

And, you know, a lot of non technical users have come into crypto, and they've learned, you know, just enough of what they need to do, writing down seed phrases, you know, managing private keys, not getting phished or rugged, you know, somewhat technical skills, but still accessible.

如果你告诉我，哦，David，Linux是个东西。

And, you know, if you told me that I was like, oh, David, the Linux is a thing.

你可以用它来做点什么。

You can go and do stuff with it.

我会知道从哪里开始。

I would know where to get started.

是的。

Right.

但以太坊是个东西。

But Ethereum is a thing.

比特币是一个东西。

Bitcoin is a thing.

Zcash 是一个东西。

Zcash is a thing.

作为一个非技术用户，我知道外面有这么一个东西，我可以去用它，这和 Linux 不一样。

And, like, as a nontechnical user, that's a thing that I know that's out there that I can go do stuff on that is different from Linux.

Linux 呢？我根本不知道那是什么。

Like, Linux is like, don't even know what it is.

它是 GitHub 上的一个代码库吗？

Is it is it a code base on GitHub?

我不知道 Linux 是什么。

Don't know what Linux is.

老实说，它是个操作系统。

Honestly, it's an operating system.

我知道这一点。

I know that.

它在哪里？

Where is it?

我不知道它在哪里。

Don't know where it is.

你需要三张四分之三英寸的软盘。

You need three three and quarter inch floppy disks.

但我知道以太坊在哪里。

But Ethereum I know exactly where Ethereum is.

它就在那里，等着我去使用。

And it's out there and it's waiting for me to go use it.

或者不。

Or the no.

它不是

It's not

成本

the cost

以太坊。

Ethereum.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道吗？有时候，当我决定运行一个节点时，它就在我自己家里。

You know, sometimes sometimes it's even in when I decide to run a node, it's in my own home.

你知道吗？

You know?

我知道。

I know that.

嘿。

Hey.

你知道吗？

You know what?

当你这么说的时候，让我意识到，过去三个月里，AI真的、真的改变了我的生活。

When you're saying that, it made me realize something has really, really changed because of AI in the last three months for me personally.

所以我认为，也许在2026年，或者2027年、2028年，一个人可能会说：‘你知道吗？’

So I think maybe in 2026, maybe 2027 or 2028, but I think a person could say, Oh, you know what?

我真的想运行Linux。

I really wanna run Linux.

我决定要用Linux，不碰Windows，也不用Macintosh。

I've decided I wanna use that in no Windows, no Macintosh.

这次我要用Linux。

I'm gonna run Linux this time.

而在2025年，他们就完蛋了。

And in 2025, they would've been fucked.

他们搞砸了。

They have a oops.

抱歉。

Sorry.

我刚才说得有点过头了。

I beat that up.

他们当时能完成任何工作的可能性只有1%。

They would have had a 1% chance of ever getting any work done.

我认为也许在2026年或2027年左右，他们就能对AI说：‘帮我在这台电脑上安装Linux，并调试和配置它。’

I think maybe in 2026 or 2027 or so, they're going to be able to say to their AI, Okay, install Linux on this computer for me, and debug it and configure it.

回到Moxie的愿景，针对普通用户的用户体验。

To go back to Moxie's vision, with the UX for the normal user.

从今年或明年开始，用户体验不再是ASCII字符串、按钮或屏幕上的位置。

Starting maybe this year or next year, the UX is no longer ASCII strings or buttons or positions on a screen.

用户体验就像那些科幻电影里展现的一样。

The UX is like in all those sci fi movies.

你直接大声说出你想要什么。

You explain what you want out loud.

这就是你开始使用的用户体验。

That's the UX where you start with.

对吧？

Right?

这可能意味着，你可以拥有所有这些其他东西——加密技术、加密货币、Linux 以及其他各种技术，而用户体验却能真正为普通人服务，因为他们知道如何用语言表达自己的需求。

And that might mean that you can have all this other stuff, cryptography and cryptocurrencies and Linux and whatever else, and the UX can actually just work for normal people because they know how to say what they want out loud.

不过，我希望我们的 AI 是密码朋克，祖科。

I hope our AIs are cypherpunks, though, Zuko.

如果它们就是用户体验，很多事情都取决于它们。

A lot depends on them if they are the UX.

关于这一点，我有个数据点。

Oh, data point about this.

正是这个问题。

Exactly this question.

几天前，我看到一篇帖子，有人让 ChatGPT 帮他们校对文档。

I saw this post a couple days ago where someone had asked ChatGPT to spell check their document.

这份文档是关于如何在不想让手机号进入公司数据库、避免被黑客窃取并利用的情况下，注册需要手机号的服务的指南或教程。

The document was instructions, or a tutorial, or a how to on things like how to sign up for a thing that requires a phone number when you don't want your phone number going into that company's database where it's going to get hacked, and hackers are going to use it against you.

ChatGPT 不仅帮她校对了拼写，还主动删除了所有提及一次性手机号服务的内容。

ChatGPT, in addition to spell checking it for her, went ahead and removed all references to services that give you one time use phone numbers.

哇。

Wow.

然后他们对加密货币也做了同样的事。

And then they did the same with oh, cryptocurrency.

另一个是什么？

What's the other one?

她在这篇教程中提到了两个工具，她不是娜奥米·布罗克韦尔吗？

She was two tools that she mentioned in this tutorial, and she's not this is Naomi Brockwell.

她太棒了。

She's awesome.

去看看她的内容吧。

Check her out.

她并不是一个加密货币爱好者。

She's not a cryptocurrency person.

她对加密货币非常了解，而且喜欢CCash。

She knows plenty about cryptocurrency, and she likes CCash.

但她所做的全部事情，就是教普通电脑用户如何避免被大型企业和政府在日常生活中剥削。

But she's just like a her whole thing is teaching normal computer users how to not be have their lives stripped mined by mega corporations and governments on their normal things.

总之，重点是，ChadGPT在没人要求的情况下，自行删除了所有关于一次性电话号码服务和加密货币的提及。

Anyway, point is ChadGPT, without being asked, went ahead and removed all mention of these one time phone number services and of crypto.

于是她回复说：等等，不对劲。

And so she wrote back to it and said, wait a minute.

你为什么要把我的内容拆得七零八落，还删掉这些东西？

Why didn't you chop up my thing and edit it and remove stuff?

ChatGPT回答说：哦，一次性电话号码服务和加密货币可能被用于滥用和诈骗之类的行为。

And ChatGPT said, oh, one time phone number services in crypto could be used, like, for abuse and scams and stuff.

所以我不能保留这些内容。

So I can't really leave that in there.

这真是一个完美的例子。

So it's a perfect example.

所以，是的，你真该去看看娜奥米·罗克韦尔。

So, yeah, you should check out Naomi Rockwell.

她太棒了。

She's awesome.

这是我听过的最反乌托邦的事了。

That is the most dystopian shit I've heard.

可能是哪个

Probably Which

这周特别诡异，因为这种事情现在一直在发生。

is creepy as this week because, like, it it's happening all the time now.

但这就是所谓的哈尔式噩梦场景之一，AI就是不给你你真正想要的东西。

But that is that is one of the, you know, kind of the the Hal nightmare scenario, just the the AI kind of not giving you exactly what you're asking for.

抱歉，娜奥米。

Sorry, Naomi.

我做不到。

I can't do that.

天哪。

Oh, man.

那么，你对未来的走向持乐观态度，认为它能朝着我们希望的世界价值观和结果发展吗？还是你更悲观？

Are you optimistic then that the future is guidable towards the values and outcomes that we want for the world, or are you more pessimistic?

你害怕吗？

Are you scared?

我持乐观态度。

I am optimistic.

好的。

Okay.

为什么？

Why?

我可以想到一个具体的原因，但总的来说，如果你放眼长远，人类一直以来都在让事情变得更好，至少在过去几百年里，每几十年都是如此。

I can think of a specific reason, but maybe just in general, you zoom out, humans have always made things better, at least every few decades for the last few hundred years.

做得很好！

Doing great!

我觉得我们会想出办法的。

I think we'll figure something out.

具体的细节，我认为这才是关键，我们之前已经提到过，是Web2的商业模式，还是其他商业模式？

The specific detail, which I think is really the key, which we've already been touching on here, is it the Web2 business model or a different business model?

ChatGPT 绝对是Web2的东西，对吧？

ChatGPT is definitely a Web2 thing, right?

在我看来，这就是Web2的AI。

That's the Web2 AI, in my perception.

我这么说是什么意思？

What do I mean by that?

广告，他们刚刚也宣布了。

Advertising, they also just announced.

ChatGPT 本周刚刚宣布，他们将开始插入广告。

ChatGPT just announced this week that they're gonna start inserting advertising.

你看到网上流传的那个视频了吗？

Did you see that clip that was going around the Internet?

那是萨姆·阿尔特曼在某个采访中的片段。

It was a clip of Sam Altman at some interview.

他说他在谈论关于，是的。

He said he was talking about how yeah.

我认为广告是ChatGPT的最后手段商业模式。

I think ads are, like, a last resort business model for ChatGPT.

那大概是两年前的事了。

That was, like, two years ago or something.

是的。

Yeah.

我们现在只能靠最后手段来付费了。

We're now on the last resort to pay for it.

Web2的商业模式，基本上互联网上80%的问题，我认为都是因为广告在2000年代初成为唯一可行的商业模式。

The Web two business model, basically everything that is wrong 80% of things that are wrong with the internet, I think, are because advertising was the only working business model starting in the early 2000s.

如果我们重蹈覆辙，如果广告成为AI唯一可行的商业模式，我们可能会遭遇类似的糟糕结果。

If we recapitulate that, if advertising is the only working business model for AI, we'll probably have a similar bad outcome.

我不知道是不是这样。

I don't know if it is.

我还没太关注。

I haven't paid attention.

我们还没解决同样的激励陷阱吗？

We haven't solved the same incentive traps?

我们来看看。

Let's see.

我想有两件事。

There's two things, I guess.

一个是广告，我讨厌广告。

There's advertising, which I hate.

广告在三个不同的方面都是最糟糕的东西，也是导致80%的事情都很糟糕的原因。

Advertising is the worst thing ever in three different ways, and it's the reason why 80% of everything sucks.

另一个是锁定效应，这也是硅谷Web2.0模式的核心，他们在过去二三十年里反复磨练和学习这一模式：尽快吸引一亿用户，因为第一百个用户无法离开其他九亿九千九百九十九万九千九百九十九个用户。

Then the other one is Lock In, which is also core Silicon Valley Web two zero playbook that they've honed and learned over and over for twenty or thirty years, which is get the 100,000,000 users as fast as possible because the hundred millionth one can't leave the other nine hundred ninety nine million nine hundred ninety nine nine hundred ninety behind.

对吧？

Right?

所以一旦你拥有了网络效应的用户，就会产生锁定效应。

So as soon as you have the network effective users, then you have lock in.

然后你就可以开始压榨和利用他们，而他们不会离开。

And now you can start squeezing and exploiting them, and they won't they won't leave.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这就是那两个套路，我乐观地认为，我们不会再重蹈覆辙了。

Those are the two playbooks, which I optimistically think, oh, we won't do that again.

这次我们总会想出别的办法。

We'll we'll figure something else out this time around.

子操，我觉得他们正在对人工智能重演这一套。

Tzuco, I feel like they're running it back for AI.

我真的觉得他们正在完全重复这两件事。

I really feel like they're doing exactly those two things.

重演这一套。

Running it back to her.

而且，我这一周刚看到，Gemini 现在已经整合了 Gmail，还有整个 G Suite，能有这个工具帮你自动整理邮件，简直太方便了，我真的觉得他们又在重演老套路。

And, I mean, I just saw this week Gemini is now integrating with, like, Gmail, like, the full g Suite, and it's so damn convenient to have that thing go and organize your And, man, I feel like they're running it back.

谷歌的商业模式是什么？

What's go what's Google's business model?

是的。

Yeah.

这太糟糕了。

That's the worst.

就谷歌对这种从用户身上榨取价值的方式的依赖程度而言。

In terms of in terms of how much Google relies on that kind of extractive squeezing of value out of its users.

它极度依赖这种模式。

It just relies on that so much.

你

You

我能假设，这恰恰凸显了你为何如此感激加密货币对各种事物的资助吗？因为这相当于采用了一种全新的商业模式，或者说是完全不同于以往的全新策略？

can I I suppose that underlines or emphasizes why you are so grateful for crypto's funding of things is because it's kind of like leveraging a third business model or just like a new strategy that's just outside of what came before it?

而且这可能不可持续。

And it might not be sustainable.

对吧？

Right?

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

从一个非常宏观的角度来看，我不想显得消极或愤世嫉俗，但你可能会说，哦，加密货币出现了，在大约十年的时间里，人们把大量资金投入各种实验，但最终没赚回钱，于是就停止了。

Like, at a very zoomed out level, I don't wanna be negative or cynical, but you might just say, oh, like crypto came along and for ten years or so, people poured a bunch of money into a bunch of experiments, and then they didn't get their money back, and so they stopped that.

我们进入了人类生活的下一阶段。

We moved on to the next phase of human life.

希望我们能建立起类似的那种可持续的持续反馈循环。

Hopefully, we can get some sustainable ongoing feedback loops of the same kind of thing.

是的。

Yeah.

我同意。

I agree.

我同意。

I agree.

让我们谈谈正向反馈循环，因为这正是Zcash最近发生的情况。

Let's talk about, positive feedback loops because that's definitely what happened to Zcash recently.

让我们聊聊Zcash。

Let's talk about Zcash.

最近吸引了大量关注，这是我最感兴趣的课题。

There's been just a ton of attention My favorite topic.

最近的Zcash。

Zcash lately.

由这段惊人的价格走势引发。

Brought on by this incredible price action.

所以，Zcash，我记得在九月或十月的时候，一枚Zcash的价格是50美元。

So, like, Zcash, I think something in, like, September or October was $50 for a single Zcash.

后来一路涨到了750美元。

Ran all the way up to $750.

回落到目前的350美元。

Came back down to where it is now at $350.

价格表现非常惊人。

So pretty incredible incredible price performance.

我要补充的是，没有任何广告和锁定，这真的会发生吗？

It's brought on Might I add, no advertising and no lock in Would this just happen to Right.

没有任何广告和锁定。

No advertising and no lock in.

完全是自发的。

All organic.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，这吸引了大量用户进入Zcash生态系统，而没有任何特定的针对性推广。

So that has brought in an incredible amount of tension, users into the Zcash ecosystem without any specific targeted question.

只是想法、情绪和反思。

Just thoughts, sentiments, reflections.

最近当Zuko是什么感觉？

What what's it like to be Zuko lately?

我本人其实不太清楚，我更想忽略这个问题。

Me, personally, I'm not so I did I'm more Forget that question.

我想回到刚才那个问题，是什么让你想得太多了？

I'm going go back to what That do we think about one caused you to think too hard.

是的，正是如此。

Yeah, exactly.

我对这一点感到非常兴奋。

I'm really excited about that.

我真的很喜欢你提到的那句话，Ryan。

I really love the part you the the comment you made, Ryan.

没有广告，也没有绑定。

No advertising and no lock in.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是你先说的。

It's you said it first.

只是重复一下，是的，它

Just repeating Yeah, it

我以为Zcash的价格上涨了。

I thought the Zcash price went up.

Zcash没有中心化参与者。

There is no central player in Zcash.

它有点像比特币，但又不完全一样。

It's kind of like Bitcoin, but kind of not.

我非常非常乐观。

I'm very, very optimistic.

看到Open Zcash那波大幅价格上涨，这让我备受鼓舞，因为它明确表明人们确实关心隐私。

It was very encouraging to me with that huge price run of Open Zcash, both as just a signal that people do care about privacy.

这就是很多人从中得出的主要观点。

That's the main thing that a lot of people took away from it.

在那件事发生后，有太多人告诉我：原来人们真的关心隐私。

So many people told me after that started happening, Oh, it turns out people do care about privacy.

我认为用这种大规模的、聚合的价格信号来塑造你的世界观是合理的，这是一件很好的事，因为这些信号很难被操纵。

I think that's valid, using those kind of aggregate large mass price signals to inform your worldview, I think that's a pretty good thing to do because it's hard to hard to spoof those signals.

它们聚合了多种不同类型的信息。

They aggregate a lot of different kinds of information.

这表明了很多人认为隐私是有价值的。

So it shows a bunch of people that privacy is valuable to people.

在这些方面，Zcash 可能与众不同，甚至独一无二，但我不敢断言没有其他类似的东西，Zcash 非常罕见、特殊且不同的一点是 Dove 基金。

Of the things that's pretty different it might be unique, but I don't want to claim that I'm sure there are other things like it but it's pretty rare and special and different about Zcash is the Dove Fund.

你们要不要再为你们的‘是的’复述一遍？

You guys, should we recount that for your Yeah.

我很乐意。

I would love to.

我们对它很熟悉，但好吧，我们来聊聊它。

We're familiar with it, but, yeah, let's talk about it.

Zcash 正在经历第三次减半。

Zcash is on its third halving.

它在诞生时复制了比特币，并且采用四年一次的减半周期。

It cloned Bitcoin when it was born, and it has a four year halving schedule.

在这每一个四年周期中，都出现过不同的货币政策，那个词叫什么来着？

Each of these four year periods, there's been a different monetary what's the word?

不管怎样，从第五年开始到第八年，这个机制被称为开发者基金，现在我想它仍然叫开发者基金，但我们现在已经进入第九年了。

Anyway, there's been this different thing starting in the second starting from year five through eight, it was called the DevFund, and it's still called the DevFund, I think, but we're in year, like, nine now.

这是一种发行机制。

This is issuance.

你知道比特币中，每个区块都会产生一批新币，并且这些币会奖励给挖出该区块的矿工吗？

You know how in Bitcoin, there's a bunch of coins issued with every block, and they go to the miner who mined that block?

是的。

Yep.

在Zcash中，新生成的币有80%归挖出该区块的矿工，另外20%则进入这个开发者基金。

And in Zcash, 80% of the newly created coins go to the miner who mined that block, and 20% of them go to this dev fund thing.

这意味着，如果价格像你所说的上涨了七倍，那么现在进入开发者基金的资金就是之前的七倍。

And that means if the price has gone up like seven x or whatever you said, that means seven times as much money is going to this dev fund thing now as before.

就在我们开始之前，我刚拿出计算器算了一下。

I whipped out my calculator just before this started.

Zcash的总量上限是2100万枚，因为我们也是从比特币那里复制了这一点。

There's 21,000,000 ever because we also clone that from Bitcoin.

在前四年，其中一半的币——即1050万枚——被分配给了矿工和开发者基金的接收者。

And in the first four years, half of that was issued to miners and DevFund recipients, 10 and a half million coins.

在第二个四年期间，这个数量减少到了525万枚。

In the second four years, that was 5 and a quarter million coins.

现在我们进入了第三个四年周期。

So now we're in the third four year period.

因此，在未来四年里，大约会有200万枚Zcash币被发行出来。

So there's something on the order of 2,000,000 Zcash coins that are gonna get issued over the next four years.

这20%会进入开发基金，假设Zcash在未来四年里价格保持在400美元左右，那么通过这个开发基金发放的总额将达到约两亿美元。

And 20% of those are going to this dev fund so at a price of $400 let's just say for simplicity Zcash is over $400 a coin for the next four years That's going be about $200,000,000 is going to be issued through this Dev Fund thing.

而当它价值50美元一枚时，那笔金额大概只有六千万美元左右。

Whereas back when it was worth $50 a coin, that would have been $60,000,000 or something.

我不确定。

Don't know.

总之，我的观点是，这是一笔巨款，这也是为什么eCash价格上涨让我如此振奋。

Anyway, my point is that's a lot of money and that's what's so encouraging to me about the price of eCash going up.

这证明了人们认可它的价值，意味着开发基金的接收者将更多、更强大、更有能力，并在未来多年获得更充足的资源。

It proves that people value this, and it means all those recipients of the DEV fund are gonna be more numerous and more high powered, more empowered, more well fueled for years.

正向反馈循环。

Positive feedback loop.

让我再补充一点。

Let me add one more thing.

是的，这是一个正向反馈循环。

Yeah, it's a positive feedback loop.

让我再补充一点。

Let me add one more thing.

我个人以及我所在的组织Shielded Labs，并不是Dev Fund的受益者之一。

I personally and my organization, Shielded Labs, are not one of those recipients of the Dev Fund.

我为一家名为Shielded Labs的公司工作。

I work for this company called Shielded Labs.

我甚至不是这家公司的老板。

I'm not even the boss of it.

老板是杰森·麦吉，他非常出色。

The boss is Jason McGee, and he's awesome.

Shielded Labs只专注于Zcash，我们认为Dev Fund非常棒、非常重要，是Zcash长期战略优势的核心部分。

Shielded Labs only focuses on Zcash, and we think the Dev Fund is great and important and a central sort of strategic advantage of Zcash long term.

但为了保持简单，避免被指责存在利益输送或自私动机，我们干脆不接受任何Dev Fund资金。

But in order to keep things simple and so that we can't be accused of, like, self dealing or, you know, like, selfish interests, we just don't accept any dev fund.

我们仅依靠Zcash持有者的捐赠来获得资金。

We're only funded by donations from Zcash holders.

所以通过

So By

顺便说一下，泰勒和卡梅伦·温克利沃斯今天早些时候向Shielded Labs捐赠了130万美元。

the way, Tyler and Cameron Winklevoss just donated $1,300,000 to Shielded Labs earlier today.

哇。

Wow.

哇。

Wow.

这太庞大了。

That's huge.

他们一直是隐私的坚定支持者。

They have been huge proponents of of privacy.

我相信他们也是你之前提到的那笔债务的幕后推动者。

They're they're also behind the debt that you mentioned earlier, I believe.

而且他们今年对Zcash一直非常热情。

And and they've been, yeah, they've been very excited about Zcash this year.

我注意到他们在这一领域做了很多事。

I've noticed a lot of things that they're doing in this space.

我认为他们是真正的信徒。

I think they're true believers.

是的。

Yeah.

我们来多聊聊协议区块奖励分配给开发基金的事。

Let's talk more about the the protocol block rewards going to the dev fund.

这一直很有趣，可以观察这种活动持续多年后会发生什么，因为当然，在比特币世界里，把一部分奖励抽走用于任何比特币开发基金都会被视为大不敬。

So this has been it's very interesting to sort of observe what happens after, like, many years of this activity because, of course, Bitcoin, that would be like, to do that, to siphon off a portion to any Bitcoin development fund would be sacrilege over there.

对吧？

Right?

哦，我在问呢。

Oh, asking.

比特币是不可变的，你绝不能将区块奖励用于奖励矿工以外的任何其他目的。

Bitcoin is immutable, thou shalt not siphon block rewards for any other purpose than rewarding miner.

这在协议中已经规定了。

It's in the protocol.

这已经写入了社会契约中。

It's in the social contract that's done.

以太坊在协议型开发基金区块奖励这个理念上要模糊一些。

Ethereum was a bit more squishy with that idea of protocol based dev fund block rewards.

以太坊社区曾多次提出过类似这样的EIP提案。

And there had been multiple proposals to actually do something like that EIPs in the Ethereum world.

其中一些在社区中引发了相当深入的讨论。

Some of them got reasonably far debate in the community.

但没有一个真正达到被考虑进行硬分叉的程度。

None actually got into the point of being considered for a hard fork.

以太坊社区一贯给出的理由是：谁来决定资金的去向？

And the reason always given in the Ethereum world is like, well, who decides where the funds go to?

这难道不是一种腐败的途径吗？

Is this not a vector for corruption or something?

我们是不是该把这个变成一个代币投票？但我们都讨厌代币投票，因为这有寡头统治的风险，还可能成为控制的途径。

What do we turn this into a token vote and like, well, we don't like token votes for plutocratic reasons, and it could be a vector for control.

所以每隔一阵子，这个想法就会在以太坊里重新冒出来。

So every once in a while, it resurfaces in Ethereum.

但一直都被压制下去了。

But it's been kind of quashed down.

而Zcash从更早的阶段就开始完全支持这种理念，并将其直接融入系统中。

Now, Zcash has fully supported this type of idea from the earlier, like, a much earlier set point and just kind of baked it in.

所以现在它已经成为社会契约的一部分。

And so now it's part of the social contract.

我认为选择加入Zcash网络的人，大体上都知道这一点。

I think people who opt into the Zcash network sort of know that it's there.

他们认可这一点。

They appreciate it.

他们对此心怀感激。

They're grateful for it.

他们很高兴这个生态系统持续获得资金支持。

They're glad that the ecosystem continues to get funding.

但你觉得它的表现如何呢？

But, like, what's your assessment of it?

我的意思是，也许高层次的问题是，它进展得怎么样？

Like, I guess, maybe the high level question is, how has it gone?

最近我们也看到一些治理问题浮现出来。

There's been also some, I I I think, governance issues maybe that we've seen surface lately.

Zuko，我对那里发生的所有细节都不太熟悉。

And, Zuko, I'm not even familiar with all of the details of what's happening there.

我不确定这是否属于关于开发基金及其去向的争论。

I don't know if that's a kind of a debate for, you know, dev funds and and where it goes.

但总的来说，你的评价如何？它进展得怎么样？

But just overall, your assessment, how has how has that gone?

我对它的进展感到非常高兴，因为它帮助CCash一直存活到现在。

I really am happy about how it's gone because, it has helped CCash survive until now.

你可以把它和其他一些没有类似机制的事物相比，那些事物陷入了死亡螺旋，因为当代币价格下跌时，开发、维护等各方面都会变差，而这又会让代币价格进一步下跌。

You can compare it to a lot of other things that didn't have a similar thing and they entered a death spiral because when the token price is going down that means development and maintenance and everything is getting worse and that makes the token price go down more.

DAF基金一直支撑着Zcash至今，我同意你的看法，Zcash社区已经习惯了这种安排，并将其视为一种社会契约。

The DAF fund sustained Zcash all along until now, and I agree with you that the Zcash community has gotten used to it and treats it as a social contract.

购买Zcash的人是有所预期的，但这正是他们所参与的一部分。

People who buy Zcash are expecting, but that's part of what they're getting into.

你可能不知道，这个机制每四年左右就会调整一次。

You're probably not aware that it's changed every four years or so.

实际上，这是我们最初设立时所做的决定，对此我感到很满意。

Actually, this is something we did when we originally set it up, which I'm pleased with.

我很高兴我们当初选择了这种方式。

I'm glad we did it this way.

最初，这个机制被称为‘创始人奖励’，持续了前四年。

The first original thing it was called the founder's reward in the first four years.

我记得这一点。

I remember that.

我记得这件事。

I remember that.

这个名称更准确，因为那20%并不是从矿工那里抽走的。

Which was a more accurate name because this 20% that got siphoned off from the I wouldn't say from the miners.

但在头四年，80%的新发行量归矿工所有。

But for the first four years, 80% of the new issuance was the miners.

有20%流向了另一个地方。

There's 20% went to this other place.

而那个地方是把钱给投资者、早期员工，以及那些创建并持续维护网络的人。

And that other place was give it to the investors and early employees and whoever had created and was currently maintaining the network.

开发基金就是由此发展而来的。

The Dev Fund kind of grew out of that.

创始人奖励中有一小部分，由我哥哥内特·威尔科克斯和我安排，专门用于持续开发，你明白吗？

There was a tiny slice of the founder's reward that my brother Nate Wilcox and I arranged to get directed to ongoing development, if that makes sense.

我不记得具体比例有多大了。

I don't remember how big of a slice.

18%直接归创始人所有，2%用于持续开发，正是这笔资金支撑了Electric公司在那四年间的成长。

18% just went to founders and 2% went to ongoing development, and that was what sustained the electric growing company for those four years.

然后四年期限到了，我所说的引以为豪之处在于，我们在初始规则中设置了日落条款。

Then the four years was up, and the thing that I was saying I was proud of is we baked a sunset clause into the initial rules.

这正如我们所预期的那样，引发了一场宪政危机，当时一些Zcash支持者说：好吧，社会契约是我们忍受这件事四年，之后所有新币都将100%归矿工所有，永远如此。

That forced, exactly as we had intended, a constitutional crisis when a bunch of Zcashers said, Okay, well the social contract was we would endure this thing for four years, and then it would be 100% to miners for the rest of time.

其他人则说：不不不。

Other people said, No, no, no.

我不认为那是社会契约。

I don't think that was the social contract.

我认为社会

I think the social

契约是矿工在未来四年可以获得80%，20%将归入这个新的开发基金，这与创始人奖励不同。

contract is that miners can get 80% for the next four years, and 20% will go to this new dev fund thing, which is different than the Founders' Award.

所以创始人奖励给了最初的投资者等人，然后我们设法将其中的一小部分重新定向以维持开发。

So the Founders' Award went to the original investors and whoever, and then we managed to redirect a tiny sliver of that to sustain development.

接下来的四年，是开发基金，资金流向了两个半不同的组织。

Then the second four years, it was the Dev Fund, which went to two and a half different organizations.

资金流向了三个不同的目的地，其中一个组织控制或管理了其中两个。

It went to three different destinations, and one organization controlled two of them or oversaw or managed two of them.

然后这个基金也自行终止了，因为现在社会契约已经变成：你期望开发基金每四年自行终止一次。

Then that sunsetted itself because, again, now the social contract is that you expect dev fund proposals to sunset themselves every four years.

它自行终止了。

That sunsetted itself.

现在生效的新机制中，没有任何组织直接获得资金。

The new one that's now in effect, there's no organizations that receive any direct funding.

仍然有20%，但由于减半机制，现在这20%是更少的Zcash币的产出。

There's this there's still 20%, but it's now because of the halving, it's now 20% of a smaller output of Zcash coins.

但由于价格上涨，现在这20%相当于多得多的美元金额。

But because of the price run up, it's now 20% of a much larger number of dollars.

而现在它由两个不同的实体来管理。

And now it's controlled by two different things.

一个是由一群其他人通过某种加密匿名邮件系统选举出来的五人委员会。

One's a committee of five humans that got elected by a bunch of other humans through this, like, this email cryptographically anonymous email or something like that.

另一个是链上代币持有者投票。

Then the other one is on chain token holder voting.

这就是目前的状况。

That's the current state of play.

事实上，第二个是等等，是哪一个？

In fact, the second one Wait, which one?

老实说，我并没有太关注。

Honestly, I don't pay that much attention.

我尽量关注积极的一面。

I try to pay attention to the good things.

至少现在有一个叫做锁箱的东西。

At least there's a thing called the lockbox.

其他Zcash用户在意识到这一点时一定会大吃一惊，我都想不起来是哪一个了

The other Zcashiers are gonna be so aghast when they realize, I can't remember which one was

那个保险箱，就是那个。

the lockbox, which was that.

总之，这是目前社会上的共识，似乎大致上在运行。

Anyway, that's the current agreement socially, and it seems to roughly be working.

我突然想起了那些争论。

I'm reminded of the the debates.

比如，我特别看到了Vitalik，他是我非常尊重的那些人之一。

Like, I saw Vitalik in particular, who's another one of those people that I, like, greatly respect.

他曾对这些事情中的某些方面提出过保留意见、担忧或反对，我认为这些是合理的。

He had posted his caveats or concerns or objections to some of these things, and I think they were valid.

你提到Vitalik或其他人也有这些其他的担忧和反对意见。

You mentioned either Vitalik or other people also had these other concerns and objections.

幸运的是，对于你们以太坊团队来说，Zcash正在尝试，所以你们能亲眼看到这会有多糟，哪里会出问题。

Fortunately for you Ethereum folks, Zcash is trying it, and so you'll get to find out how bad that goes, what goes wrong.

我们已经让原始投资者在前四年获得了大量份额。

We've tried giving the original investors a whole bunch for the first four years.

我们曾尝试向两个组织提供大量资金，其中一个组织受社会契约约束，必须以两种不同方式使用这些资金。

We've tried giving two organizations a whole bunch of money where one of those organizations is required by the social contract to use it in two different ways.

那是第二个四年。

That was the second four years.

现在，对于接下来的四年，我们正在尝试一个委员会和一个独立的代币持有者投票机制，就像两个独立的机构一样。

Now we're trying a committee and a token holder vote that are independent separate, like, houses or whatever for the coming four years.

你们在第三个四年阶段进展到哪一步了？

And how far are you along in the the third set of four years?

才刚刚开始吗？

Has it just begun?

让我想想。

Let's see.

2016年10月是最初的启动时间。

Twenty sixteen October was the initial launch.

所以2020年是第一次减半。

So 2020 was the first halving.

所以2024年去年十月和十一月，我们现在已进入整整一年零三个月了。

So last October and November 2024, so we're like a whole year and three months in.

我认为这个资金锁定箱至今还没有分发给任何人。

I the think the lockbox has not actually been distributed to anyone yet.

整个过程涉及代币持有者投票、人们申请资助等等。

There's this whole process of token holder voting and people applying for grants and so forth.

总之，我们已经进入了第三次实验的一年多时间。

Anyway, so we're a year and something in to the third experiment.

嘿，Bankless社群，我是大卫。

Hey, Bankless Nation, it's David.

如果你正在听到这段内容，那是因为你在收听免费的Bankless播客频道。

If you're hearing this, that's because you are listening to the free Bankless Podcast Feed.

你知道吗？还有一个付费的Bankless RSS频道。

Did you know that there is a premium bankless RSS feed?

付费频道包含我为个人研究而进行的额外访谈，以及一些关于加密行业更深入的问题——我希望通过这些问题获得答案，以便在Bankless Ventures以及我个人的投资组合中成为更知情的投资者。

The premium feed has extra interviews that I do for my own personal research and just deeper questions that I want answered about the crypto industry, questions that I want to answer so I can be more informed as an investor both at Bankless Ventures and also just in my own personal portfolio too.

而且没有广告，这意味着如果你选择收听高级版播客而非免费版，每年能节省大约二十个小时，因为你直接支持了Bankless。

Also, there are no ads, which means if you listen to the premium feed instead of the free feed, you'll get about twenty hours of your life back every year because you choose to support Banklist directly.

所以，如果你希望获取更多内容同时跳过广告，或者只是欣赏我们所做的工作并希望我们继续下去，我们非常感谢你注册Bankless高级版。

So if you're interested in getting extra content all while skipping the ads or you just appreciate what we do here and want us to keep doing it, we'd appreciate it if you signed up for Bankless Premium.

详情链接在节目笔记中，你可以点击开始使用。

And there is a link in the show notes to get started.

祝2026年一切顺利。

Cheers to a good 2026.

我的意思是，到目前为止，Zcash的模式运作得相当不错。

I mean, I feel like it's worked pretty well for Zcash so far.

事实上，你还有个王牌可以强调：如果没有这个机制，Zcash很可能不会以现在的形态存在。

And in fact, you've got the trump card to say, like, Zcash probably wouldn't be here in its current form unless we had that.

我的意思是，它确实为关键开发提供了资金支持。

I mean, it really funded the critical development.

我相信，围绕Zashi钱包开发团队，曾发生过一些治理方面的争议。

I there there's been some governance drama, I believe, around the Zashi wallet developers.

那是什么？

What's that?

你对此怎么解释，Zuko？

What's your accounting of that, Zuko?

我的意思是，我看过一些标题，但要理解发生了什么，还有很多细节需要了解。

So I I mean, I've looked at the headlines, but there's a lot to kind of get into in order to understand what's happening.

你能给我们做个总结吗？

Do you have a summary for us?

让我想想，因为这是一场持续的争议，有人私下告诉我一些情况，所以我得小心，不能泄露他们的保密信息。

Let me think because it is a ongoing dispute, now have people have told me things confidentially about it, so I want to be careful not to tie any of their confidences.

这和我或Shielded Labs没有任何关系。

It doesn't involve me or Shielded Labs in any way.

事实上，我会试着为你总结一下，但基本上，我认为这对Zcash来说并不重要。

In fact, I I'll try to summarize it for you, but basically, I don't think it's that important for Zcash.

希望他们别听到这个觉得被忽视了，但这只是其中一个团队的事。

Hope none of them hear this and feel disregarded, but it's just this one team.

这是一个很棒的团队。

It's a great team.

Zashi 是一个非常棒的产品。

It's a really great product, Zashi.

它的用户体验非常好。

It's got really great UX.

你应该试试看。

You should try it.

但并不是只有这一款钱包拥有出色用户体验。

But it's not the only wallet that has great UX.

我非常喜欢这个团队的成员。

I love the members of that team.

是我多年前招募了他们，他们都是非常优秀的人。

I'm the one who recruited them years ago, and they're super great people.

即使他们分心了或者转向其他方向，Zcash 也会没事的，你知道的，随便怎样都行。

Zcash will be fine if they just get distracted or spin, you know, whatever.

但这场争议是否与金库、开发基金有关？

But was part of the dispute related to the the lockbox, the development fund at all?

或者

Or

没有。

No.

这其实只是一个关于谁控制组织、资金、员工向谁汇报以及知识产权归谁所有的正常管理和组织纠纷。

It was really the dispute is just a normal control and organizational dispute about who controls the organization and the money and who the employees work for and who owns the IP, all that kind of stuff.

这之间的关联在于，这一切都源于Zcash极其惊人的价格走势，这提升了对区块奖励和金库的治理重要性，同时伴随着大量用户下载Zashi、将Zcash存入Zashi，突然间，Zashi实现了产品市场契合。

Is the way that it's related the fact that this both came downstream of the very incredible price action of Zcash, which increased the importance of governance over the block rewards and the lockbox, and then also came with it a bunch of users downloading Zashi, putting Zcash into Zashi, and and all of a sudden, Zashi's got product market fit.

而现在，是的。

And now Yeah.

据我了解，Zashi的开发者希望将其从基金会——即Electric Coin Company（ECC）中剥离出来，成立一家公司，因为他们想要。

They as I understand it, the developers of Zashi wants to get it out of the foundation, the e c the ECC Electric Coin Company, out of that and turn it into a company because they want Mhmm.

资本化的初创企业。

Capitalistic startups.

所以这并不是直接相关的，但两者都是由我们看到的Zcash价格走势所引发的后续结果。

So it's not directly connected, but it is both downstream of the price action that we've seen in Zcash.

确实存在一个关联，那就是有一家名为Bootstrap的非营利组织。

There is a connection, which is that the company so there's a nonprofit named Bootstrap.

我几年前帮助设立了这个组织。

That I helped set up years ago.

这背后有一段有趣的历史，因为最初创建Zcash的是一家营利性公司，也就是当时的Electric Coin Company。

It's an interesting history, because originally it was a for profit company that created Zcash, the electric coin company, back in the day.

事实上，它曾参与了早期设立开发基金的治理流程。

In fact, it was part of the previous governance process of setting up the Dev Fund.

在最初的四年期限届满后，Zcash基金会的盟友表示他们会反对任何开发基金。

After the first four years expired, our allies at the Zcash Foundation said they would fight, they would oppose any Dev Fund.

他们当时说的是：我们要争取100%全部归矿工。

What they were saying was, We're going to go for 100% for minors.

我们要为彻底取消任何特殊安排而斗争，除非是矿工，否则任何私人实体都不应获得开发基金。

We're going to fight for the end of any special thing other than mining if a private party is going to be receiving debt fund.

当时我只是对他们感到不满。

At the time, was just annoyed at them at the time.

那就是我。

That was me.

他们谈论的正是我的公司。

That was my company they were talking about.

现在回想起来，我觉得那实际上相当明智。

In retrospect, I'm like, Oh, wow, that was actually pretty wise.

当时我们成立了一个名为Bootstrap Foundation的非营利组织，Electric Coin Company的所有者都将他们的股权捐赠给了Bootstrap Foundation，以确保没有任何私人所有者会存在利益冲突。

What happened was, we set up a nonprofit called the Bootstrap Foundation, and all of the owners of the Electric Coin Company donated their equity to the Bootstrap Foundation so that there would be no private owner who would have a competing interest.

比如，他们可能会从中提取价值，或将开发方向引导至私人利益，而损害公共利益或整个Zcash社区。

Like, they would be able to extract value or direct the development to their private interest at the expense of the public interest or or the Zcash community as a whole.

而社区，也就是Zcash基金会，并没有怎么反对。

And the community, like, the Zcash Foundation did not fight very much at all.

我从未问过他们，但也许正是因为现在它变成了非营利组织，而不是私人公司，所以他们不再反对开发基金。

I never asked them, but maybe the fact that it was now a nonprofit instead of a private company was part of why they stopped objecting to the dev fund.

整个社区批准了开发基金，以足够的多数票或足够共识通过了这项决定。

The community as a whole approved the dev fund, like, with sufficient, you know, majority or sufficient, like, consensus, and it went through.

因此，这个启动型非营利组织在那四个周期内开始接收开发基金。

So that bootstrap nonprofit started receiving dev fund during those four year periods.

但在当前的四年周期中，启动型非营利组织——也就是完全由Electric Coin Company拥有的子公司——根本不再接收任何开发基金。

But now in the current four year period, the bootstrap nonprofit slash the electric coin company wholly owned subsidiary isn't receiving dev fund at all.

它与当前该组织的组织危机唯一的关联是，他们持有的部分资金此前是作为债务基金拨付给他们的，你明白我的意思吗？

The only interaction between that and the current organizational crisis in that organization is that some of the money they're holding was previously given to them out of debt funds, if you see what I'm saying.

但他们并没有持续地接收任何债务基金的资金。

But they're not, in an ongoing way, receiving any debt fund money.

我不确定。

I don't know.

这回答了你的问题吗？

Does that answer your question?

是的。

It does.

是的

Yeah.

我只是对一些内部情况感兴趣，想了解正在发生的事。

Was just interested in kind of some of the inside baseball about what's going on.

我想这把事情说清楚了。

I think that that that clarifies things.

我想回到你之前说的一件事，我们谈到2025年可能会成为Zcash的突破之年。

I I I wanna go back to something you were saying where we're talking about 2025 being an incredible breakout year for Zcash.

至少图表显示了这一点。

At least the charts reflected that.

我知道技术的实际进展比价格图表反映的要缓慢得多。

I know the tech has proceeded much more gradually than was reflected in the price charts.

你说部分原因是加密货币正在重新觉醒，重新认识到隐私的重要性。

And you said part of the reason for that was crypto was, like, kind of reawakening, rediscovering the importance of privacy.

我认为这确实没错。

And I think that was is definitely true.

我认为正出现一股强大的社会运动，人们开始意识到，天啊，比特币甚至以太坊，链上都没有原生的隐私保护。

I think there's a huge movement towards that kind of a social movement realizing, oh my god, Bitcoin, even Ethereum, like, we don't have native privacy on chain.

这太反乌托邦了。

This is dystopian.

你看看那些AI工具，它们能够追踪和定位地址，情况真的很糟糕。

You look at the AI tools and their ability to map and find addresses, and it's really bad.

是的。

Mhmm.

但我认为这并不是唯一的原因。

I don't think that was the only reason though.

我认为2025年还有另外两个因素在起作用，更接近你之前向我们介绍的Moxie的观点，也就是用户体验和上亿用户。

Two other things I think came into play in 2025 that were more along the lines of Moxie's idea that you were introducing us to earlier, which is user experience, the 100,000,000 users.

这涉及到钱包技术的结合。

And that was a combination of wallet technology.

Zoshi钱包做得相当不错。

The Zoshi wallet is like quite good.

还有Near Intense，这个还挺酷的。

And then also Near Intense, which is kinda cool.

对于没用过Near Intense的人，它是一种允许用户在跨链时直接将屏蔽的Zcash兑换为其他任何资产的方式。

So Near Intense for people who not used it is a way where users can essentially swap shielded Zcash for any other asset natively across chains.

真正酷的是，即使你关注的是其他链上的资产，比如以太坊或Solana上的资产，你也可以通过跨链使用你的意图，暂时利用Zcash的隐私功能，然后再回到你选择的链上。

What's really cool about this is even if you are looking at other assets on another chain, say something on Ethereum or Solana, you can use Zcash for its privacy utility temporarily by going cross chain using your intents and then kind of come back to your chain of of choice.

嗯，我对这一点有点不同意见。

Well, I might disagree with a little bit of that.

这挺有意思的。

It's interesting.

我们待会儿再聊这个。

Well, we'll talk about that.

这是我对其运作方式的理解。

That's my impression of how it I

我同意你，人们变得更加意识到或更关注隐私了。

agree with you that people became more aware of or more concerned about privacy.

有两个层面。

There's two layers.

一个是社会层面。

There's the social.

什么是社会公益？

What's social good?

我们是否希望生活在一个……什么样的世界里？

Do we want to live in a world where or whatever.

然后还有实际的、个人的、直接的动机，人们只能从经验中学习。

And then there's, like, the practical, personal, direct motive, and people only learn from experience.

对吧？

Right?

所以我同意你的观点，人工智能的显性力量似乎正促使人们更加意识到这一点。

So I agree with you that, like, the apparent the the experienced power of AI, I think, is causing people to be more conscious of this.

我也同意你的看法，即用户体验、Moxie方法，以及钱包和Near Intense的用户体验。

And I agree with you that UX, the moxie approach, and I agree with you that it's the UX of both the wallet and near intense.

好的。

Okay.

所以，坦白说，几年前我还在Electric Coin Company担任CEO时，和Josh Swihardt一起启动了Zashi钱包项目，当时他受雇于我，现在已经是CEO了。

So in disclosure, I originally started the Zashi Wallet project back when I was the CEO of Electric Coin Company a couple of years ago with Josh Swihardt, who's the, at that time was employed by me and is now the CEO.

我在项目达到1.0版本之前就离开了。

I left before it reached one point zero.

我想表达的是，我很高兴你喜欢这个用户体验。

The point of this is I'm really proud that you like the UX.

这个用户体验并不差。

The UX is not bad.

在我离开那份工作之前，我花了整整九个月的时间，全身心投入到Zashi的用户体验设计上。

That was my focus for nine months before I left that job, was just solely focused on the Zazhi UX.

我离开之后，第一，他们才把产品做到1.0版本，并开始建立用户反馈机制；第二，他们才加入了Near Intents的集成。

It was after I left that A, they got it to one point zero and started getting the user feedback loop, and B, they added the near intents integration.

我认为这正是Moxie Marlinspike理念的绝佳例证：功能必须整合在同一个应用里。

And I think it's a great example of the Moxie Marlinspike approach is that it has to be in the same app.

如果你使用的应用超过一个，那就别想了。

Like, if the number of apps you use is greater than one, forget about it.

对吧？

Right?

你只会用一个应用，里面没有任何多余的步骤、概念或需要学习的无关信息。

There's just one app that you use, and there's no unnecessary steps or concepts or no unnecessary information that you learn.

Near Intents 之前是独立于 Zashi 存在的。

Near Intents already existed separately from Sashi.

我确实拿它做过实验，但当时我不会推荐给任何人。

I did actually use it as an experiment, but I wouldn't recommend it to anyone else at that time.

一旦它被整合进统一的应用里，我就不会再推荐任何人使用它。

Once it's integrated into the unified app, then I wouldn't recommend anyone use it.

你只需要告诉别人：哦，是的，就这么做。

Just tell people, Oh yeah, just do that thing.

它就是能正常工作。

It just works.

没问题。

No problem.

总之，我完全同意你对这些事情的看法，向这个团队致敬。

Anyway, basically, I agree with you on all that stuff, and kudos to that team.

我想收回我之前说过的话。

I want to take back something I said earlier.

无论冲突和创伤多么严重，都不会真正摧毁Zcash。

It's true no matter how badly the conflict and the trauma goes, it won't really kill Zcash.

还有许多其他组织，比如我目前所在的组织，以及其他许多组织，以及那两亿美元，它们完全独立于那个团队、那些人和那场冲突。

There's all these other organizations like my current organization and many others, and the $200,000,000 which is completely separate from that team and those people and that conflict.

另一方面，他们在Sashi上做得非常、非常、非常出色，如果他们因此受阻，未来一年或更长时间一事无成，那就太可惜了。

On the other hand, they've done a great, great, great job with Sashi, and it would be a real shame if they got derailed and didn't accomplish anything else for the next year or whatever.

那太糟糕了。

That would suck.

总之，我祝他们一切顺利。

Anyway, I wish them the best.

我刚才想说什么来着？

What was my point?

哦，我想说的是，隐私的工作方式有一个非常有趣、非常微妙且细致的方面。

Oh, my point was there's a really interesting, really subtle, nuanced thing about how privacy works.

当我第一次为了自己的实际需求而使用Zashi，并深度集成时。

When I first used Zashi with near intense integration for an actual need for myself.

那对我来说是一个顿悟的时刻，尽管我已经研究隐私和密码学这个话题三十年了。

That was a lightbulb moment for me after thirty years of studying the topic of privacy and cryptography and stuff.

而就是这一点。

And it was this.

我是怎么做到的？

I, how did this work?

我有一个Netflix账户。

My Netflix so I had a Netflix account.

它绑定在一个Gmail账号上。

It was tied to a Gmail.

我没有用那个我平时给所有人的真实Gmail账号。

I didn't give it, like, my real Gmail that I give to everyone else.

我用了一个虚构的、一次性可用的Gmail账号，这样Netflix就无法做什么了。

I gave it a made up to, like, disposable Gmail so that Netflix wouldn't be able to whatever.

那个Gmail账号被锁定了。

That Gmail got locked.

我到现在还不知道为什么。

I still haven't figured out why.

也许有人试图黑它但失败了，之类的。

Maybe someone tried to hack it and failed or something.

我不清楚。

I don't know.

我没有设置能成功找回那个Gmail账号的恢复流程，所以我的Netflix就用不了了。

I didn't have recovery procedures that would work to get that Gmail back, so my Netflix was broken.

我当时就想：真是倒霉。

I was like, Well, damn it.

我该怎么办？

What am I going to do?

哦，我知道了。

Oh, I know.

我要注册一个ProtonMail账户，然后注册Netflix，这样今晚就能看电视了。

I'm going to get a ProtonMail account and sign up for Netflix, and I'll be able watch TV tonight.

我去了ProtonMail，发现它提供了三种选择。

I went to ProtonMail, and ProtonMail offers three options.

A，输入信用卡信息。

A, put in a credit card.

去他的。

Fuck that.

B，给我们寄一封装着纸币的信封？

B, send us an envelope with fiat paper, paper fiat bills?

是的。

Yeah.

然后用邮政寄到芬兰或者别的什么地方？

And snail mail it to Finland or wherever the fuck?

太棒了。

How amazing.

C，

C,

用比特币付款，因为他们是比特币至上主义者。

send us Bitcoin because they're Bitcoin maximalists.

他们根本看不上任何比比特币低级的加密货币。

They wouldn't deign to deal with any lesser crypto than Bitcoin.

这时候我灵光一闪。

Here's the light bulb moment.

我手机上装了Zashi。

I have my Zashi on my phone.

Zashi钱包里有Zcash在屏蔽池中。

It has Zcash in the shielded pool in Zashi Wallet.