德国如何辜负残障人士

这个BBC播客的广告投放范围不包括英国境内。

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside The UK.

吉米是怎么靠发视频从一场抵制变成亿万富翁的？

How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos?

在《好与坏的亿万富翁》节目中，我们将揭开全球最受欢迎的YouTube博主MrBeast如何积累财富的真相。

On Good Bad Billionaire, we're gonna find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, mister Beast, made his fortune.

他曾连续几天把自己埋在棺材里，还当着镜头数数，

He's buried himself in a coffin for days Counted to

数到十万。

a 100,000 on camera.

甚至复刻了《鱿鱼游戏》，只为在互联网上走红。

And even recreated Squid Games all in an attempt to go viral on the Internet.

但这一切都始于他给了一个无家可归的人一万美元。

But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000.

所以，他到底是一个正在重塑资本主义的慈善家吗？

Is So he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism?

还是说他只是注意力经济的王者？

Or is he just the king of the attention economy?

敬请收听《好与坏的亿万富翁》

Find out on Good Bad Billionaire

来自BBC世界服务频道。

From the BBC World Service.

立即在您收听BBC播客的平台收听。

Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

早上好。

Good morning.

又来了。

Oh, again.

再见了。

Bye again.

再见了。

Bye again.

再见了。

Bye again.

这是一个小团体，这里的人大多有严重的残疾，需要高度的协助。

Is a small group, and we have here people with severe disabilities and a very high need of assistance.

所以你现在可以看到

So right now you see

我们身处一个光线明亮、充满活动的房间。

We're in a brightly lit room full of activity.

这里的人正在做各种不同的工作。

The people here are working at a variety of different tasks.

你看，正对着我们的那个年轻人。

Here you see the young man right opposite from us.

他正在学习怎么洗碗。

He's just learning how to wash the dishes.

洗碗。

To wash the dishes.

这边左边是一位年轻人，手几乎动不了，我们为他设计了一套装置，让他能使用碎纸机。

And to the left here, we see a young man that can barely move his hand, and we have built a construction that he's now using a paper shredder.

这里的人们正在学习如何工作。

And these people here are learning how to work.

这完全能理解。

Absolutely understandable.

我们相信，每个人都有能力学会一份工作。

We have the idea that every person is able to learn a job.

欢迎收看英国广播公司世界服务的这部纪录片。

Welcome to the documentary from the BBC World Service.

我是艾米·扎耶德，是当今德国为数不多的残障记者之一。

My name is Amy Zayed and I am one of a very few disabled journalists working in Germany today.

在本期《任务》节目中，我想探讨为什么这么多德国残障人士被排除在职场之外。

In this edition of Assignment I am asking why so many German people with a disability are excluded from the world of work.

为什么融入社会如此困难。

Why inclusion is so difficult.

我是幸运的那一个，但人生本可能完全不同。

I am one of the lucky ones, but it could have been so different.

上学的时候，老师带我们去见职业顾问，他问我将来想做什么。

At school we were taken to see a careers adviser who asked me what I wanted to do.

当我告诉他我想当记者时，他嗤之以鼻。

When I told him I wanted to be a journalist, he scoffed.

别跟我开玩笑了，他说。

Don't mess me around, he said.

你是个盲人。

You're blind.

认真点。

Be serious.

这里是我们园艺中心的场景，我们一共聚集了所有人。

Here you see our gardening centre, basically, and we have all together

今天带我参观的是卡拉·布赖登巴尔斯。

My guide today is Carla Breidenbals.

她负责这家机构。

She's in charge of this institution.

这在德语里叫‘为残障人士设立的庇护城镇’。

It's what Germans call a Wachstadt furbehindertemenschen.

用英语讲，我们可能会说‘庇护性工作坊’，就是给残障人士提供工作的场所。

In English, we might say sheltered workshop a workshop for disabled people.

卡拉是这个组织的首席执行官。

Carla is the CEO of a group

这些机构由慈善组织天主教仁爱会拥有。

of them owned by Caritas, a Roman Catholic charity.

埃马纽埃尔是这里一位年轻员工。

Emmanuel is one of the young men working out here.

他告诉我，他最近在挖树根。

He tells me he's been digging up tree roots.

我觉得这个项目很好，因为它让我们明白，重要的不只是工作，更是人的成长。

I think this project is a nice project because it shows that for us it's not always about working, it's about developing people.

以前在这个群体里的这些人，几乎每天都会惹麻烦。

And these people who were in this group before, they were getting into trouble nearly every day.

自从他们来到这里，我们再也没遇到过任何问题。

And since they've been up here, we haven't had any trouble with them at all.

像这种位于德国北部帕德博恩市的工作坊，一直颇具争议。

Workshops like this one in the North German city of Paderborn are controversial.

批评者认为，这里是在利用前来工作的残障人士。

Their critics say they exploit the people who work here.

其中一项指控是，他们做的工作和普通劳动者一样，却拿不到最低工资，而这些工作是为一些知名公司和品牌做的。

Among the accusations is that they are paid less than the minimum wage to do the same work that others do out in the mainstream economy on behalf of well known companies and brands.

有些人希望彻底关闭这些工作坊。

There are some people who'd like the workshops closed down for good.

卡拉·布赖登博斯对这些说法早就听腻了。

Carla Breidenbos has heard it all before.

我们的理念是参与和帮助人们迈向更高的阶段。

Our mindset is about participation and developing people for the next level, the next step.

每当我听说德国的所有工作坊都被一概而论，说它们都差劲，我就觉得很难过。

And it does make me sad sometimes when I hear that all workshops in Germany seem to be bad and all workshops are thrown together in one part.

这让我很痛心，因为在这里工作的人，这是他们的正经工作。

And it hurts me because for the people who work here, it's their job.

他们每天早上上班时，希望感受到的是积极的氛围，而不是在报纸上看到说这些是糟糕的企业。

And they want to have a good feeling when they go to work in the morning and not hear and read in the newspapers that these are bad businesses.

库里塔斯公司在这一地区运营着10个工作坊，雇用了大约1600名残障人士。

Curitas runs 10 workshops in this region with around 1,600 disabled people.

但问题在于，这些人是否真的应该待在这里。

The question is though, whether all these people should actually be there.

一旦进入工作坊体系，残障人士就很难再走出去。

Disabled people once inside the workshop system find it very hard to leave.

全德国像这样的人超过三十万。

And there are more than 300,000 of them all over Germany.

但只有不到1%的人能重新回到主流职场。

Fewer than 1% find their way back into a mainstream job.

在批评者看来，这些庇护性工作坊延续了德国残障人士与非残障人士之间的隔离，把他们分隔在两个平行的世界里。

To their critics, workshops perpetuate the segregation in Germany of disabled and non disabled people into parallel worlds.

没有哪个群体比残障人士经历更多的歧视。

There is no group that experiences more discrimination than people with a disability.

这是赫伯特·许珀，他是庇护性工作坊制度最著名的批评者之一。

This is Hubert Hupper, one of the most prominent critics of the system of sheltered workshops.

他的声音很有分量。

His voice carries weight.

他不仅是德国前国会议员，还曾被政府任命为联邦残障事务专员，代表残障人士的利益。

He's not only a former member of the German parliament, but also a former federal commissioner appointed by the government to represent the interests of disabled people.

他说，德国在对待残障人士歧视问题上，背负着一段难以直面的历史。

And he says that Germany has an uncomfortable legacy to manage when it comes to discrimination against disabled people.

这

The

纳粹最早有组织屠杀的群体，并不是犹太人。

first group whose murder was organized by the Nazis wasn't the Jews.

也不是罗姆人。

It wasn't the Roma.

也不是同性恋者。

It wasn't homosexuals.

而是残疾人。

It was people with a disability.

对他们所做的事情，后来被极其残酷地扩展到了其他群体身上。

What was done to them was later extended in a brutal fashion to other groups.

但人们不禁感到，那些成为‘T4计划’受害者的残疾人，还遭受了进一步的歧视，因为施暴者通常受到的惩罚远比迫害其他群体的人轻得多。

And yet one is left with the feeling that the people with a disability who fell victim to this program, they called it the t four program, suffered further discrimination because the perpetrators were, as a rule, much less severely punished than those who'd persecuted other groups.

如果纳粹时期是针对残疾人歧视的顶峰，那么歧视并没有在战后结束。

If the Nazi period represented the high point of discrimination against disabled people, discrimination didn't end after the war.

一种将残疾人隔离出来的政策被制度化了。

A policy was institutionalized in which people with a disability were separated out.

设立了特殊学校和特殊疗养院。

Special schools were created and special homes.

人们根本不会考虑残障人士也有权为自己做决定。

The idea that disabled people might want to make decisions for themselves just wasn't acknowledged.

融合这种概念根本就不存在。

The concept of inclusion didn't exist.

融合不是靠教出来的。

Inclusion isn't something you can teach.

你得亲身去实践。

You have to live it.

所以你不该把残障人士关在专门的机构里。

And that's why you shouldn't put people with a disability in special institutions.

他们有时候确实需要保护，这很明显，所以有人把工作坊称为保护性工作坊。

Sometimes they do need protection, that's obvious, and workshops are sometimes described as protective workshops.

但我常常在想，到底是谁在保护谁。

But I often wonder who is being protected from whom.

是残障人士想从非残障人士那里获得保护，还是反过来？

Is it the people with a disability who want protection from those without a disability, Or is it the other way around?

一旦你进入了这种隔离体系，原则上就再也出不来了。

In principle, once you become part of this segregated system, you never get out of it.

你会从特殊幼儿园升到特殊学校，然后直接进那些庇护性工作坊。

So you'll go from a special kindergarten into a special school and then into one of those sheltered workshops.

接着你可能会被送到特殊养老院，最后甚至就埋在那里。

Then you'll end up in a special care home, and eventually you may even be buried there.

有些养老院甚至有自己的墓地。

Some of these homes have their own cemetery.

休伯特·胡珀说，他对德国在这一问题上不足的看法，很多人都有同感。

Hubert Hupper says his views on Germany's shortcomings in this regard are shared by others.

联合国也持同样的观点，我们曾因此被批评缺乏包容性。

It's also the opinion expressed by the United Nations where we were reprimanded for not being inclusive.

他们指出，我们的工作坊违反了《联合国残疾人权利公约》，因为那里的人被隔离开来了。

It's said our workshops don't abide by the UN Convention on the Rights of Disabled People because people there are separated off.

2023年，联合国残疾人权利委员会对德国在政府、社会和法律各领域包容性严重不足的问题提出了全面批评。

This was in 2023 when the UN Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities took a broad swipe at Germany's poor record of inclusion in all areas of government, society and law.

报告还对残障人士的高失业率表示担忧，特别批评了从庇护工坊进入公开劳动力市场的比例过低。

It expressed concern about the high rate of unemployment among disabled people and specifically it criticised the low rate of transition from workshops to the open labour market.

休伯特·许珀尔也指出，工坊系统根本没尽到它声称的职责——帮助员工重新融入社会。

Hubert Hupper echoes this concern that the workshop system fails in its stated responsibility to rehabilitate its workers.

这个责任根本没人当真，因为这么做对生意不利。

This responsibility just isn't taken seriously because it's bad for business.

毕竟这些工坊是商业机构，靠产出维持生存。

Because workshops are commercial enterprises that survive on what they produce.

所以很自然，他们想留住最能干的员工——那些最有希望在主流经济中立足的人，否则利润就上不去了。

And so, obviously, they want to hang on to their best workers, the ones that would have the best chance of making it out in the mainstream economy, because otherwise they are not as profitable.

残障的类型和严重程度千差万别。

Disability comes in a huge variety of guises and degrees of severity.

在德国，进入工坊有一套正式流程，需要联邦就业局或其他公共机构，以及工坊本身共同评估申请人。

In Germany, there's a formalised system for entry into a workshop, which involves candidates being assessed both by the Federal Employment Agency or other public body, and the workshop itself.

但很难不让人觉得，有些人其实是被默认送进工坊的。

But it's hard not to avoid the conclusion that some people end up in a workshop by default.

正如休伯特·许珀所说，从特殊学校到工作坊这条路早已被走烂了。

As Hubert Hupper says, the path from special school to workshop is well trodden.

你去问问迪尔克·赫内尔就知道了。

Just ask Dirk Hernell.

迪尔克今年五十出头。

Dirk is in his early 50s.

他告诉我，他有癫痫。

He tells me that he's got epilepsy.

他说自己一开始上的是普通学校，但第二年就被强行转到了特殊学校，这根本不是他想的。

He says he started out at a regular school, but in his second year was sent to a special school against his wishes.

他说刚上学那会儿，遇到一位特别好的老师，总让他坐前排，对他格外关照。

He says that when he first went to school, he had a super teacher who sat him in the front row and gave him lots of attention.

可老师一走，接替她的是一位年纪大的老师，把他扔在后排不管了。

But when she left, she was replaced by an older teacher who struck him in the back row.

他的成绩越来越差，最后只好进了特殊学校。

He says his grades got worse and worse, and so eventually he ended up in the special school.

狄克快毕业时，人家告诉他，唯一的选择就是去工作坊。

When Dirk was about to finish school, he says he was told the only option on offer was to go to a workshop.

他说他并不想那样，试着找过学徒机会。

He says he didn't want to do that and tried to find an apprenticeship.

他记得有一次去应聘，跟对方说自己有癫痫，结果雇主打量了他一眼，说：‘我们这儿不雇傻子。’

He remembers going to one place and telling them that he had epilepsy, and his prospective employer looking at him and saying: We don't employ idiots here.

根据德国法律，雇员超过二十人的公司必须雇佣至少一名残疾人。

Under German law, companies with more than 20 employees have to employ at least one disabled person.

不遵守的话就得交罚款。

Those who don't have to pay compensation.

很多雇主宁愿直接交钱了事。

Many employers prefer simply to pay.

他们还有额外的动力，因为如果把部分生产外包给工作坊，交的罚款就更少。

They have a further incentive because if they outsource some of their production to a workshop, they pay less compensation.

狄克在工作坊时，其实是在为一些远近闻名的大公司干活。

Dirk, when he was at a workshop, was working for companies with names that are well known far beyond Germany.

那你在工坊里具体做些什么呢？

So what did you do at the Werkstadt?

你当时干的是什么活？

What was your work?

迪格说，他第一份工作是把纸板折成相框的包装盒。

DIEG says that his first job was to fold pieces of cardboard to make packaging for picture frames.

他给键盘装键帽，后来又转去修理电脑显示器。

He fitted keys to computer keyboards and then moved on to repairing computer monitors.

他说，有时候看到同事干不过来，他也会去帮一把。

Sometimes he'd help out his other colleagues if they were struggling, he says.

那你后来为什么不再在工坊干了？

Why did you then actually stop working for the workshop?

他说，离开是因为那份工作实在太简单，根本提不起劲。

He says he left because the work on offer simply wasn't challenging enough for him.

迪克和一位同事现在成立了一个组织，呼吁改善工坊里残障员工的处境，推动制度改革。

Dirk and a colleague have now founded an organisation that's calling for reform and an improvement of conditions for disabled people who work in workshops.

你们在推动 Werkstadt 改革时，核心诉求是什么？希望达成什么目标？

What is the main point of your campaign when it comes to Verkstadt, and what do you want to achieve?

他们希望政府明白，现行法律必须修改。

They want the government to understand that the law needs to be changed.

他说，最重要的是，车间里的员工应该拿到更高的报酬。

The most important thing, he says, is that people in workshops are paid better.

问题在于，在车间工作的人并不算正式雇员。

The thing is that people who work in workshops are not technically employed.

他们处于一种类似雇员的模糊状态，因此没法加入工会之类的组织。

They have what we might call a quasi employee status, and so they are not, for instance, eligible to join a trade union.

Dirk 希望这种情况能改变。

Dirk wants this to change.

但这件事还有另一面。

There is another side to this story.

确实有人在车间工作，并且从中获得了满足感。

There are people who work in workshops and are fulfilled by doing so.

我叫梅迪娜·阿诺特。

Name is Medina Arnout.

我们回到帕德博恩的慈善会工作坊，见到了梅迪娜·阿诺特。

Back at the Caritas workshop in Padrebourn we meet Medina Arnout.

她35岁，已经在这里工作好几年了。

She's 35 and has been here for several years.

现在她是维尔克施塔特委员会的主席。

Nowadays she's the chair of the Verkhstadt Raat, the workshop council.

这不算正式的工会，但仍然是代表这里残障员工的组织。

Not a trade union as such, but nonetheless a body that represents the disabled workers here.

最近我常听到有人说，我不想回到主流职场工作。

What I've been hearing a lot recently is people saying, I don't want to go and work in the mainstream economy.

我想继续留在工作坊里。

I want to stay in the workshop.

为什么大家就是不明白呢？

Why don't people understand that?

或者他们说：我该怎么让人明白，这个工作坊对我有多重要？

Or they say: How can I make it clear that the workshop is important to me?

我以前在外面工作过，那种压力完全不一样。

I've worked out there and the pressure is completely different.

我问过Medina，她有没有觉得这个工作坊给她的挑战不够。

I asked Medina whether she had ever felt that the workshop didn't challenge her enough.

我在工作坊委员会的全职工作让我忙得不可开交。

My full time job on the workshop council keeps me very busy.

说实话，从来不会觉得无聊。

Honestly, it's never boring.

我明白有些人确实这么想。

I do understand that some people think that.

也许他们说得也有道理。

And perhaps they are right.

但我会跟他们说，去跟这儿的一位社工聊聊，看看你还有什么其他选择。

But then I always say to them, go and talk to someone, one of the social workers here, and see what your options are.

看看有没有其他你更喜欢的事情。

See if there's something you'd like better.

德国现在有一个运动，尤其是残障权益倡导者，希望废除这些工作坊。

There is a movement in Germany, especially amongst disability activists, that they wish for workshops to be abolished.

你怎么看这个观点？

How do you see that?

那会是个巨大的错误，因为我们有很多同事非常感激有这样一个工作坊。

That would be a terrible mistake, because we've got so many colleagues who are grateful that workshops exist.

这些人因为自身的残疾，确实需要这样的工作坊环境。

These are people who quite simply need this workshop environment because of their disability.

工作坊给这些同事带来了一种安全感。

The workshop gives these colleagues a certain security.

在这里，我可以做真实的自己，被人接纳。

I'm accepted here for who I am.

就是这种感觉。

You know, that kind of thing.

你还会听到有人说，特别感谢有这个工作坊，因为他们在外头的商业世界里经历过一切。

And you also hear people say things like, I'm so grateful that the workshop exists because I have experienced life out there in the commercial world.

而且

And

那让我病倒了。

it made me ill.

吉米的抵制运动是怎么让他靠发视频成为亿万富翁的？

How did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos?

在《好与坏的亿万富翁》节目中，我们将揭秘全球最受欢迎的YouTube博主MrBeast是如何积累财富的。

On Good Bad Billionaire, we're gonna find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, mister Beast, made his fortune.

他曾经连续几天把自己埋在棺材里，

He's buried himself in a coffin for days Counted

当着镜头数到十万。

to a 100,000 on camera.

甚至还复刻了《鱿鱼游戏》，只为在互联网上走红。

And even recreated Squid Games all in an attempt to go viral on the Internet.

但这一切都始于他给了一个无家可归的人一万美元。

But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000.

那么，他究竟是在重塑资本主义的慈善家吗？

So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism?

还是说，他只是注意力经济的王者？

Or is he just the king of the attention economy?

敬请收听《好与坏的亿万富翁》。

Find out on Good Bad Billionaire

来自BBC世界服务频道。

from the BBC World Service.

立即在您收听BBC播客的平台收听。

Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

这是BBC世界服务制作的纪录片。

This is the documentary from the BBC World Service.

我是艾米·扎耶德，正在德国进行报道。

I'm Amy Zayed, on assignment in Germany.

有一些组织正在努力改善这种状况。

There are organisations that are trying to change the situation.

其中一个叫IncluSolutions。

One of them is called IncluSolutions.

这家机构帮助公司思考，如何能够雇佣残障人士加入团队。

What this organisation does is coach companies on how it would be possible for them to take people with disabilities onto their staff.

顺便说一下，我偶尔也会为IncluSolutions做顾问。

And, full disclosure, I work as a coach for Inkle Solutions every now and then.

我现在正要去见其中一位联合创始人，阿斯兰·切廷。

I'm on my way to see one of the co founders, Aslam Chetin.

现年四十多岁的阿斯兰还记得，她刚毕业时去寻求职业建议时的经历。

Now in her forties, Aslam remembers what happened to her when as a school leaver, first went to ask for careers advice.

他们看了看我的成绩，然后说：‘好吧，你叫阿斯兰。’

They look at my grades and they told me, okay, your name is Aslam.

这是个土耳其名字，不是德国名字。

It's a Turkish name, not a German name.

你是个女人，又有残疾，在德国找工作会特别难。

You're a woman and you're a disabled person, that will be really hard for you to find a job in Germany.

所以你是选择隐瞒自己的残疾，还是改个德国名字？

So either you hide your disability or do you want to change your name to a German name?

我当时收到的全是这类建议。

These were all the advices what I got.

所以我干脆去德国以外的地方找工作，不在德国找。

So that's why I tried to find a job outside from Germany, not in Germany.

阿斯兰后来在汽车行业的高级管理岗位上，遍布全球工作。

Aslam ended up working all over the world as a senior manager in the automotive business.

她去过英国、土耳其，还有日本。

She went to The UK, to Turkey and to Japan.

但六年前，她又回到了德国。

But six years ago, she came back to Germany.

我正在找新工作，结果发现德国的情况一点都没变。

I was looking for a new job, and I I find out that the situation in Germany did not change.

每个人心里都在想同样的问题。

People have the same question in their mind.

好了，我学业结束了。

Okay, I'm done with my education now.

我现在在找工作，但该不该隐瞒我的残疾呢？

I'm looking for a job, but should I hide my disability?

我在简历上写明自己的残疾，会不会反而吃亏？

Is it a disadvantage if I put my disability on my CV?

那一刻我豁然醒悟，必须得做点改变了。

And that was the turnover on my head where I said something needs to change now.

就在那时，她和一位合作伙伴决定创办自己的新公司。

And that's when she and a partner decided to set up their new business.

她说，这些年来他们确实取得了一些进展。

She says they've made progress in the intervening time.

但如今德国经济陷入困境，这些进展已经停滞了。

But with Germany now in economic difficulty, that progress has ground to a halt.

我现在能告诉你的是，过去一年里，情况变得更糟了，比四年前、六年前还要差。

What I can tell you now is since one year, everything get worse, even worse than four, six years ago.

现在，大家不再关注多样性和包容性了。

Now, the focus is not anymore on diversity and inclusion.

完全不关注了。

Not at all.

就在这一年内，我们明显看到，公司连讨论残障问题的时间都没有了。

Even within this one year, we can really see that the companies do not have any time anymore even to talk about disability.

每次我们试图说服企业做出改变，他们都说：这确实很好，但我们没时间，也没钱做这个。

Every time when we try to convince the companies to make changes, they say, oh, it's a great thing, but we don't have time for this and we don't have money for this.

但是

But

在德国的商业领域，仍然有一些企业积极鼓励残障人士前来就业。

there are still places out there in the commercial world in Germany that actively encourage disabled people to come and work.

这些企业被称为包容性企业，至少有百分之三十的员工是残障人士。

These are known as inclusion companies companies where at least thirty percent of the workforce has a disability.

约瑟夫啤酒厂就是这样的公司。

Josefsbrauerrei, the Josefs Brewery, is one such company.

它位于帕德博恩工作坊开车几分钟外的一个小镇上。

It's in a small town a few minutes' drive from the workshop in Paderborn.

带我们参观这个震耳欲聋的灌装车间的是维多利亚·许尔特，一位酿酒师。

Our guide through the deafening clutter of the bottling plant is Victoria Schuerter Brewer.

招聘员工是她的职责。

It was her job to recruit the staff.

整个灌装车间的员工都是残障人士。

The bottling plant is staffed entirely by disabled people.

事实上，啤酒厂的17名全职员工中，有9人有残疾。

In fact, of the 17 full time staff at the brewery, nine have a disability.

其中一位是爱德华·埃迪。

One of them is Eduard Edie.

他31岁，在这里担任平面设计师。

He's 31 and works here as a graphic designer.

他告诉我，找到这份工作并不容易。

Finding this job, he tells me, wasn't straightforward.

2021年我完成了培训，但之后花了很长时间才来到约瑟夫啤酒厂。

2021 I finished my training and then it was a long road to get to here, to Josef's.

整整四年，我一直在找工作，投简历，什么都没落下。

It was four years of job hunting and sending out applications and everything.

最难的部分是什么？

What was the hardest part?

我觉得我遇到的最大障碍，是雇主根本缺乏相关信息。

I think the biggest barrier I was confronted with was sheer lack of information of the Employer.

雇主们。

Employers.

因为很多时候，我甚至被邀请去参加一些莫名其妙的面试。

Because often I was even invited to forced transgender

是面试吗？

Job interviews?

面试的时候。

Job interviews.

但那些人根本不知道该怎么应对我的残疾，这也让我很沮丧，因为在我的行业里，我不明白为什么雇主不肯给我机会，让我证明自己虽然坐在轮椅上，但一样能胜任工作。

But the people didn't really know how to handle my disability and that's also part of my frustration because in my line of work I don't understand why employers didn't give me the chance to show that I'm capable of doing the work even though I'm sitting in a wheelchair.

所以我特别感激认识了维多利亚，因为她能看到每个人身上的潜力，还会帮助雇主明白，有残疾的员工其实能为公司带来价值。

That's why grateful to have met Victoria, because she sees the potential in everybody and is then helping also the employers to understand that these people with disabilities have a benefit in the company.

包容性企业要想运转下去，必须依靠政府补贴。

Inclusion companies can work only if they are subsidised by government.

但对于残障人士来说，这些岗位能提供合理的薪酬，以及和普通员工一样的全部福利。

But for disabled people they provide jobs where they are paid properly and enjoy all the benefits of a regular employment contract.

对于在酿酒厂工作的迪克·维特来说，这里和他之前待了好几年的庇护工坊，差别巨大。

For people like Dirk Witt, who works in the bottling plant, there's a huge difference between the brewery and the workshop where he spent several years.

迪克告诉我，在这里，他不再依赖政府的救济。

Dirk tells me that here he isn't dependent on handouts from the state.

他不用像以前那样，去求人施舍钱了。

He doesn't need to beg for money, as he puts it.

他说自己很独立。

He is independent, he says.

他还要缴税。

He has to pay tax.

为什么呢？

Why?

他说工作本来就很有趣，但在这里更有趣，因为在这里他得到的认可和尊重更多。

He says work is always fun, but it's even more fun here, because here he's appreciated more, respected more.

你是怎么找到尤素福·斯普拉格·莱希这家公司的工作的？

How did you find this job at the Youssef Sprague Reich?

迪克说，啤酒厂给了他一个实习机会，结果特别顺利，他就留了下来。

Dirk says he was offered an internship at the brewery and it went really well, and so he stayed.

他说在那个车间经常觉得无聊，因为活儿太少。

He says he was often bored at the workshop because there wasn't enough work.

是你自己说想走的，还是别人来找你谈的？

Did you say I want to leave or did someone come to you and tell you?

他说，为了公平对待车间里的人，是他们主动找上他的。

He says that to be fair to the people at the workshop, they approached him.

他们注意到他没什么活儿干。

They'd noticed that he didn't have enough to do.

所以呢。

And so

在这几块公告板上，你能看到各种不同的活动。

here, on these boards, you can see the different kinds of activities.

我们可不只是干活儿。

We just don't only do work.

你看，周一有体操，周一下午还有合唱团，我们还提供其他一些

You see here, we have gymnastic on a Monday, we have choir on Monday afternoon, we offer different

我们回到帕德博恩的车间，现在和卡拉·布赖登巴兹在一起。

We're back at the workshop in Paderborn with Carla Breidenbaz.

墙上贴满了公告板。

There's a wall covered with notice boards.

而且不只是为了休闲活动，也为了找工作。

And not just for leisure activities, also for jobs.

这些都不是车间内部的工作，全都是车间外面的职位。

These are not jobs within the workshops, these are all jobs outside from our workshops.

所以我们的目标就是让残障人士有机会去尝试一下。

So this is the goal for us to give our people with disabilities the opportunity to have a try.

尽管做了这些努力，但正如我们听到的，车间体系内的人想在主流经济中找到工作依然非常困难。

Despite these efforts, it is, as we've heard, really hard for people within the workshop system to find a job outside in the mainstream economy.

只有1%的人成功实现了转型。

Only 1% managed to make the switch.

我很好奇，卡拉·布雷登巴茨对此有什么看法。

I wondered how Karla Bredenbals felt about this.

我也觉得这个比例实在太低了。

I do think also that that's way too low.

我的意思是，我得自我反思一下，因为我们已经比其他机构做得好多了。

I mean that's the self critic I have to take also because we are much better than others.

我们自己也就在1%左右。

We are around the 1% also.

她说，这个1%的比例背后是有原因的。

She says there are reasons for this low 1% figure.

她告诉我，她更愿意用德语继续这场采访。

She tells me that she would be more comfortable continuing the interview in German.

这里面牵涉到各种不同的利益，也有很多障碍需要克服。

There are various different interests at play and there are quite a few obstacles that we need to get past.

首先得找到一份匹配候选人能力的工作，然后还得找一家愿意接纳这些限制、并配合特殊需求的公司。

The first thing is to find a job that fits the candidate and their particular capabilities, and then you need a firm that's willing to accept these limitations and to go along with any special requirements someone might have.

很多时候，我们会发现有些公司连无障碍卫生间都没有。

Quite often we will find companies that, for example, don't have any accessible toilets.

或者有些人其实很有潜力，却没法使用公共交通工具。

Or we might have someone with the potential to move on, but they are not able to use public transport.

我们还听说，有些工作坊不太愿意放走他们最优秀的人。

We've also heard how reluctant some workshops are to let their best people go.

卡拉对这个指控有什么反应？

How does Carla react to that accusation?

就是这句话让我特别生气。

That's the one sentence that really makes me angry.

每当听到有人说‘我不能放他走，没了他我们这活儿怎么干’的时候。

When I hear someone say, I can't let this person leave because I don't know how we'll get the work done without them.

因为扣着人不放，实际上是在剥夺他们掌控自己职业生涯的机会。

Because hanging on to people means we are robbing them of the chance to take responsibility for their own working lives.

还有另一种指责。

And there's also this accusation.

比如我们从现在在啤酒厂工作的迪克·维特那里就听过，说他在工坊里活儿太少。

We heard it, for example, from Dirk Witt, who now works at the brewery, that there wasn't enough for him to do.

他在工坊里接手的任务根本没法让他发挥出能力。

He wasn't sufficiently challenged by the tasks he was given in the workshop.

我觉得如果有人这么说，我们真得认真对待。

I think that if people say that, we need to take it seriously.

人们不会无缘无故这么说的。

People don't say that for no reason.

如果真有人遇到这种情况，这里 workshop 里也有可以找的人聊聊。

And if someone does find themselves in this situation, then there are people here in the workshop that they can go to and talk about it.

然后我们可以看看有没有合适的实习机会之类的。

And then we can look and see if there are any internships available, for example.

另外，当 workshop 没有满负荷运转时，活儿确实会少很多，对这里的人来说，没活干是个实实在在的难题，这没得说。

The other thing is that at times the workshop can be pretty quiet when we're not working at full capacity, and not having enough to do is a real challenge for people here, no question.

还有就是关于 workshop 工作者身份的问题。

And then there's the question of the status of people who work in workshops.

他们处于一种准员工的状态，工资低于最低标准，也没有正式员工该有的权利。

This quasi employee status, where they are paid below the minimum wage and don't have the rights that someone who is properly employed would have.

比如，没有权利加入工会。

The right, for example, to join a trade union.

我个人是理解这种批评的。

Personally, I do understand this criticism.

但我觉得，如果你在谈什么是就业，谈权利，那也得谈义务。

But I think that if you are talking about what it means to be employed, and you are talking about rights, then you also have to talk about obligations.

正式雇员有责任完成特定任务，达到合同规定的绩效标准。

Someone who is in employment is obliged to perform certain tasks, to perform at a certain level as per their contract.

但我们 workshop 里的很多人，其实很难完全履行这些义务。

But many of the people in our workshops are not in a position to fulfil these obligations fully.

这个问题我们必须坦诚面对。

And we have to talk openly about this.

如果你去跟 workshop 的工作人员或者倡导团体聊聊，他们会用这个理由来支持这种半雇佣状态。

If you talk to people who work in workshops or to lobby groups, this is the argument they use in favour of this quasi employee status that workshop workers have.

我们准备离开时，卡拉把一份文件放到了桌上。

As we're getting ready to leave, Carla puts a document on the table.

那是一份保密协议。

It's a confidentiality agreement.

请你签一下这份协议，承诺不会透露我们合作的公司名称。有些公司不希望因为帮我们提供工作而被负面报道，毕竟媒体上总在说 workshop 剥削残障人士。

I need you to sign this agreement for me that you will not say any names of companies we work with, as some companies do not want to have a bad press about them giving work to us, as in the press you read a lot about workshops exploiting people with disabilities.

我们后来也联系过一家公司将部分生产外包给其中一位参与者的工坊。

We did speak later to one of the companies that outsources part of its production to one of the characters workshops.

这家公司要求我们不要透露它的名字。

This company asked us not to use its name.

它承认，有时公司内部残障员工的比例确实低于法定的5%最低标准。

It acknowledged that on occasion the number of people with disabilities within its own workforce did fall below the legal 5% minimum.

但它表示，与工坊的合作是出于社会责任的考量。

But it said it regarded its collaboration with the workshops as a matter of social responsibility.

或许还存在第三条路——为残障人士提供一个既不是工坊、也不是完全开放市场的中间空间。

There is perhaps a third way, a place for disabled people that's not the workshop and not the full blown open market.

我们此刻在多特蒙德，参加一场由德国这一地区包容性企业主办的展会。

We're in Dortmund for a trade fair organized on behalf of inclusion companies in this part of Germany.

比如约瑟夫啤酒厂，这里的残障员工至少占了员工总数的30%。

Companies like the Jozefs brewery, where disabled people make up at least 30% of the workforce.

在开幕致辞中，本次活动的主办方、地区主管部门负责人格奥尔格·吕内曼宣布了一个雄心勃勃的目标：将本地区至少百分之十的庇护工坊人员，输送到主流就业市场。

In his opening speech, Georg Lunemann, the director of the regional authority that's organizing this event, has just announced an ambitious target: to bring at least ten percent of people in sheltered workshops in this region into jobs in the mainstream economy.

最简单的方法，或许是让这些工作坊自己成立一个融合就业部门。

The simplest way is perhaps for a workshop to found its own inclusion department.

这样既能留住一些最优秀的员工，又能让这些人享受到主流职场的福利。

And that way, it would be able to hold on to some of its best workers while at the same time giving them the benefits of working in the mainstream economy.

卢内曼先生还提醒在场的听众，残障人士的失业率是普通人的两倍，而眼下正是严重缺工的时期。

Mister Lunemann also reminded the audience here that the unemployment rate of disabled people was twice as high as that of people who are not, And this at a time of an acute labor shortage.

我们在劳动力市场上看到了残障人士的巨大潜力，尤其是技术岗位。很多企业都在找人，我们正努力打入这个市场，清楚地传达出残障人士能带来的价值。

We see a real opportunity in the labor market for people with a disability in terms of skilled workers, A huge number of businesses are looking for people and we're trying to get a foothold in that market and make crystal clear the potential that people with a disability have.

卢内曼先生跟我们说的这些，似乎和德国政府的政策方向一致。

What Har Lunemann told us seems to chime with the policy of the German government.

劳动与社会事务部在一份声明中告诉我们，他们正计划改革工作坊体系，帮助更多工作坊里的人员过渡到主流就业市场。

The Ministry of Labor and Social Affairs told us in a statement that it is planning to reform the workshop system in order to enable more people in workshops to transition to the mainstream market.

他们表示，改革将包括提高工作坊员工的薪资。

It said its reforms would include pay rises for people who work in the workshops.

不过，整个工作坊体系本身仍会保留。

The system itself would, however, be maintained.

以上就是本期节目的全部内容。

That's all from assignment.

本节目由艾米·扎耶德主持，蒂姆·曼塞尔制作。

It was presented by me, Amy Zayed, and produced by Tim Mansell.

吉米靠发视频真的成了亿万富翁吗？

Did a boycott Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos?

在《好与坏的亿万富翁》节目中，我们将揭开全球最受欢迎的YouTuber——MrBeast是如何积累财富的。

On Good Bad Billionaire, we're gonna find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, mister Beast, made his fortune.

他曾经连续几天把自己埋在棺材里，

He's buried himself in a coffin for days Counted

当着镜头数到十万。

to a 100,000 on camera.

还复刻了《鱿鱼游戏》，只为在互联网上走红。

And even recreated Squid Games all in an attempt to go viral on the Internet.

但这一切都始于他给了一个无家可归的人一万美元。

But it all started when he gave homeless man $10,000.

那他究竟是在重塑资本主义的慈善家？

So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism?

还是只是注意力经济的王者？

Or is he just the king of the attention economy?

敬请收听《好与坏的亿万富翁》

Find out on Good Bad Billionaire

来自BBC世界服务频道。

from the BBC World Service.

立即在您常用的BBC播客平台收听。

Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.