PSNI承认非法获取记者信息后，仍留下诸多疑问

可能存在这种情况，但你知道，我认为在这种情况下，文森特·卡尼实际上不可能知道讨论的内容，因为他被阻止了，他的律师也被阻止了，无法对闭门讨论的内容提出质疑。

There there could be, but, you know, I think that it's impossible for for for Vincent Kearney, in this case, to actually know what's been discussed because he's prevented, and his lawyers are being prevented from being able to challenge what's being discussed behind closed doors.

但这仅仅是一个观点，我们仍然无法完全了解为何北爱尔兰警察局和其他机构，包括军情五处，会监视文森特·卡尼，汇编关于他的档案，并一次又一次地审查他的新闻来源。

But it's that's simply a point that we're still not going to know the full story about the why the PSNI and others, including MI five, was surveilling Vincent Kearney compiling a dossier on him and going back time after time after time to look at his journalistic sources.

我们还知道，麦卡洛克审查报告审查了北爱尔兰警察局的行动。

We also know that the, you know, the the McCullough review, that reviews the operations of the PSNI.

它没有做也无法做的是审查针对这里记者的监视行动，包括军情五处、伦敦警察厅、达勒姆警方的行动，所有这些机构都在麦卡特尼案以及伯尼和麦卡弗里案中，在调查权力法庭的案件中被牵连。

What it didn't do and what it couldn't do was look at the operations of the surveillance operations against journalists here of MI five, of the Metropolitan Police, of the Durham Concepatory, all of whom have been implicated in the cases before the investigatory powers for the McCartney case and also the Bernie and McCaffrey cases.

因此，迈阿密国际以及我们委员会和司法行政部门的同事已致信国务卿希拉里·贝内特，请求他对此事展开公开调查。

And that's why Miami International and, and our colleagues in the committee and the administration of justice have written to Hillary Bennett, secretary of state, to ask him to set up a public inquiry into this.

我们最终需要彻查此事，以恢复公众对执法部门的信心，并维护新闻自由。

We ultimately need to get to the bottom of this to restore public confidence in law enforcement and then to uphold press freedom.

我们不能容忍这种对记者的非法监控行为继续下去。

We we can't have this unlawful monitoring of journalists going on.

否则，如果我们纵容此事，我们实际上就没有真正的新闻自由了。

Otherwise, if we have, we don't really have a free press.

我们拥有的新闻界正笼罩在国家监控的阴影之下。

We have a press that is on under the shadow of state surveillance.

文森特·卡尼今天上午在本节目中表示，他认为目前被确认遭到非法监控的记者名单只是冰山一角。

Vincent Kearney, has said this morning on this program that he believes that, the names out there of journalists who have been confirmed to have been illegally monitored is just the tip of the iceberg.

你同意他的看法吗？

Do you agree with them?

对于北爱尔兰警察局来说，坦白交代所有他们曾非法监控的人员有多重要？

And how important is it for the PSNI to come clean about everybody they were illegally monitoring?

嗯，当然，他们必须坦白交代。

Well, of course, they they have to come clean.

我认为去年进行的麦卡洛克审查，在审查北爱尔兰警察局近年来在这一领域的所作所为方面，做了非常彻底的工作。

I think the McCullough review, carried out last year did a very thorough job in reviewing what the PSNI has been doing in this field over recent years.

他们确实发现，我认为，如果记者们曾遭受警方非法使用监控权力来识别其新闻来源的情况。

And they did identify, that there are, I think, further if journalists have been subject to, unlawful use of surveillance powers by the police to identify their journalistic sources.

我一直在与其中一些记者交谈，他们中有些人已经公开了自己的身份，有些人还没有，并且现在已经向调查权力法庭提出了自己的投诉。

And a number of those journalists I've been talking to, some of them will be some of them have have identified themselves publicly, some of them haven't, and have now made their own complaints to the investigatory powers tribunal.

而且现在看来，他们可能也不得不经历同样的过程，试图通过法庭、通过调查权力法庭将真相拖入公共视野，正如我之前所说，这是一个非常令人不满的过程。

And it would seem they may also now have to go through the same process of trying to drag the thrift into the public sphere through the courts, through the investigatory powers tribunal, which is a very unsatisfactory process, as I've already said.

但其中大部分都发生在秘密的闭门会议中。

But so much of it happens in secret enclosed sessions.

所以我认为这件事还没完。

So I don't think we have heard the last of the story.

我认为警方应当做到完全透明，以确保当麦卡洛·安格斯·麦卡洛在今年晚些时候发布其审查报告的第二阶段时，他能比迄今为止披露更多信息。

I think it would behold the the police to be utterly transparent to ensure that when McCullough Angus McCullough case, he publishes the second phase of his review later this year, that he's able to shed much more light than he's been able to do so far.

文森特做出了区分，你今天早上也提到了，关于过去发生的事情、我们已知的过去情况、PSNI现已承认的过去行为，以及新任警察局长约翰·布彻在其任期内正在发生的情况。

Vincent made the distinction, and and as have you this morning, of what has happened what we know happened in the past, what the PS Now have conceded they did in the past, and what John Boucher, the new chief constable, what's happening under his watch.

文森特表示，公平地说，现任警察局长约翰·布彻坚持公开的部分内容，正是目前一些信息得以披露的原因。

And Vincent said that, to be fair to the current chief constable, some of what has come out has been because of what John Boucher insisted had come out.

他还提到，有些答案是在极不情愿的情况下被迫披露的。

He also said that some of the answers have had to be brought out kicking and screaming.

帕特里克，你是否相信PSNI现任高层团队充分认识到此事的严重性？

Do do you have confidence that the current senior team of the PSNI understand how serious this is, Patrick?

我认为他们确实理解了，而且我认为约翰·巴彻尔已经采取了一些措施。

I think they do understand, and I think that let's say, I think John Butcher has been taking steps.

我们目前掌握全部情况了吗？

Do we have the full picture yet?

没有。

No.

我们还没有。

We do not.

我认为我们必须记住，我们之所以能走到这一步，文森特·基尔尼本周才能将北爱尔兰警察局和五处情报机构告上调查权力法庭，是因为警方在2018年黎明时分突袭逮捕特雷弗·伯尼和巴里·麦卡弗里时犯了错误。

And I think, you know, we have to remember that, we only are at this point, and Vincent Kearney is only standing before able to take the PSNI and the MI five to the Vescue Department's Tribunal this week because the police messed up in 2018 when they showed up at the doors at dawn and arrested Trevor Burnie and Barry McCaffrey.

正是由于他们坚持不懈地追寻真相、挑战警方行为，才促使他们走向了调查权力法庭。

And because of their dogged persistence in going after the truth and challenging police actions, that's what brought them to the investigative powers tribunal.

而这反过来揭示了文森特·基尔尼本人也曾遭受非法监控，进而引发了这一案件。

That in turn is what revealed that Vincent Kearney was also subject to unlawful surveillance, and that in turn has led to that case.

因此，在过去六七年里，每一步都离不开勇敢的记者——这次有BBC的支持——持续追查究竟发生了什么，以及他们为何会被监视。

So every step of the way over the last six, seven years, we have had courageous journalists, in this case backed by the BBC, pursuing the truth about what actually has been going on, why have they been spied upon.

听到在2026年，真相仍需通过法庭才能被揭露，这真的让人感到沮丧。

And and the you know, it's really depressing to hear that the truth is still having to be dragged out through the courts in 2026.

所以我认为警方可以做得更好。

So I think that the the police can do better.

我认为我们正在帮助他们改进，但我们不能仅仅依赖警方。

I think we're assisting that they do, but we can't just rely on the police.

我们必须关注警务监督委员会。

We have to look to the policing board.

他们对PSNI负有监督责任，我今天晚些时候会再次与警务监督委员会的代表就这一问题进行沟通。

They have responsibilities of scrutiny over the PSNI, and I'll be talking to them again later today, representative of the policing board, just around this very issue.

我认为安格斯·麦库洛赫今年晚些时候会再次提及这个问题。

I think Angus McCullough will will come back to this issue later this year.

我认为调查权力委员会将进一步审查北爱尔兰记者遭受非法监控的其他案件。

I think the investigative powers tried to mill will be scrutinizing further cases from Northern Ireland journalists who've been unlawfully spied upon.

但同时，国务大臣希拉里·贝恩也需要采取行动。

But, also, the secretary of state, Hillary Ben, needs to step up.

到目前为止，他在这件事上一直保持沉默。

He's been very silent in this matter to date.

因为我们讨论的不仅仅是PSNI。

So because we're not just simply talking about the PSNI.

我们讨论的是来自英格兰的警察部队，还有安全机构、秘密机构、MI5，他们非法监视这里的记者，追查记者的消息来源，因此我们需要国务卿挺身而出，恢复北爱尔兰新闻界应有的公信力。

We're talking about police forces from England, and we're talking about the security service, the secret service, MI five, spying on journalists here, going after their journalists' sources unlawfully, and that's why we need the secretary of state to put his head above the parapet and restore some public confidence into the pre press in Northern Ireland.

我们希望以两种方式实现这一点。

And that'll we wanted to do that in two ways.

第一，设立我们所要求的公共调查。

One, set up this public inquiry that we've asked for.

第二，建立一个专利委员会二十五年前报告或提议的机制。

The other is to establish a mechanism that the patent commission reported some or proposed some twenty five years ago.

当时的国务卿彼得·曼德尔森削弱了这一机制，未能落实，那就是设立一名秘密执法专员，对警察和其他机构在此使用的秘密监视技术进行监督。

Peter Mandelson, the man's secretary of state, watered down and didn't deliver, and that was for what's called a a commissioner for covert law enforcement that would have oversight over the sort of covert surveillance techniques that the police and others are using here.

这就是希拉里·本今天可以做的两件事。

That's the two things that Hillary Benn can do today.

帕特里克·科里根，非常感谢您来自阿姆莱斯特国际。

Patrick Corrigan, thank you very much indeed from Amlesty International.

03030805555。

03030805555.

有很多人给我们打电话谈论这件事。

Lots of you calling us about this.

我们将在广告结束后立即接听您的来电。

We'll pick your calls up straight after this.

尼尔和库克的时间。

Niall and Cook's time.

早上好，尼尔。

Morning, Niall.

早上好，史蒂文。

Good morning, Steven.

你对这件事有什么看法？

What are your thoughts around this?

上周，史蒂文，你提到一个呼吁恢复五五制警务的事件。

Last week, Steven, you you touched on a story that were calling for the reintroduction of fifty fifty policing.

是的。

Yeah.

那么，这个问题显然再明显不过了。

Well, I suppose the question is very obvious.

现在的北爱尔兰警察局（PSNI）和他们的前身皇家阿尔斯特警察（RUC）之间有什么区别？

What is the difference between the current PSNI and their and their predecessors, the RUC?

你可以换一个徽章。

You can change a badge.

你可以给它取个新名字，但显然，他们仍在使用同样的老一套手段。

You can give it a new name, but clearly, they're still up to their same old tactics.

哇。

Wow.

这会让公众对加入一个全新的警察体系还抱有信任吗？

Just gives the public any faith in wanting to join a new dispensation, a new police force.

你知道，这对公共卫生没什么帮助。

You know, it doesn't do a lot for public health.

你把好几件事混为一谈了，但信息确实存在缺口，这就是为什么当前的问题如此重要。

You're conflating you're conflating a number of things, but there is a gap in the information, which is why the current day questions are so important.

那我们来梳理一下，迈尔斯。

So let's walk through that, Miles.

目前的证据是，我和皮尔斯在这件事上根本没有任何行为。

So the evidence that there is at the moment, right, there is no evidence that the current day, Pearce and I, have been up to any of this.

绝对没有证据。

Categorically, no evidence.

但显然有。

Well, there clearly is.

文森特，你知道，你只采访了文森特·基尔尼。

Vincent that, you know, you're only after interviewing Vincent Kearney.

你做得很好。

You're good.

是的。

Yes.

文森特·基尔尼知道这件事发生在2016年或之前。

And Vincent Kearney knows that this happened to him in 2016, up to 2016.

所以你在说

So you're talking

生活中的所有事情。

about everything in life.

我们只在人们被抓时才听说这些事。

We only hear about it when the people are caught.

我们直到他们被抓才听说这些事。

We never hear about it until they're caught.

别这么天真了。

Don't please by show be so naive.

你是个有经验的记者。

You're an experienced journalist.

你知道如果有一个，那就有多个。

You know if there's one, there's multiple.

我是一名记者，我向你陈述的内容是基于事实的。

I'm a I'm a journalist who is basing what I'm saying to you with fact.

所以我们确切地知道，这种情况一直持续到2016年。

So we know for a fact that this was going on up to 2016.

我们不知道2014年，抱歉，甚至更早，2014年。

We do not we do not know 2014, sorry, even even further back, 2014.

所以十二年前，我们知道这件事一直持续到2014年。

So twelve years ago, we know this happened up to 2014.

没有证据表明自2014年以来发生过这种事。

There is no evidence that it happened since 2014.

但坦率地说，你的怀疑和好奇恰恰强化了我目前正在向北爱尔兰警察局现任领导团队提出的问题：那些做了这些事的警官，他们还在那里工作吗？

But but your skepticism and your curiosity means means that it doubles down, quite frankly, on the questions that I'm currently asking the current day leadership team of the PSNI, which is the officers who did this, are they still working there?

而且，史蒂文，我们别在这里天真了。

And, Steven, let's not be naive here.

Hefty 并没有教会我们任何东西。

Hefty has taught us anything.

我们这里面对的是英国政府。

We're dealing with the British government here.

而且从历史上看，全世界各地，不仅仅是北爱尔兰，我们都清楚英国政府能做出什么样的事。

And historically, all around the world, not just in the North Of Ireland, we know what the British government are capable of.

你知道，Lyft 就像污染一样。

You know, Lyft is you know, it's a bit like pollution.

人们不相信这件事。

People didn't believe it.

人们说：不会的。

People said, no.

这根本没发生过。

It never happened.

那是很多年前的事了。

It was years ago.

不。

No.

直到有人对此进行彻底调查，真相才会被揭露。

On not until, you know, people investigate this properly, then the truth will be exposed.

但我的问题是

But my question is

呼吁进行公开调查。

calling for a public inquiry.

我们看看这会得到怎样的回应。

Let's see how that's responded to.

但我的问题是，这怎么可能鼓励来自各个社区的人们加入一支新部队，佩戴新徽章、使用新名称，却在M5涉及其中的情况下声称这条路已经走不通？

But but, like, my question is this, why how is this supposed to, you know, encourage people from all communities, to join a new force with a new badge and a new name saying that the path is gone when m I five is involved in something?

这又是另一个因素。

And that's another element here.

这甚至牵涉到英国政府的最高层。

This goes up to the very top of the British government.

当然，这取决于当前的北爱尔兰警察局到底是什么性质。

Well, surely surely it depends on what the current PSNI is all about.

当然，尼尔，这取决于它是否属于过去，而目前没有证据表明它属于那种情况。

Surely it depends, Niall, if that is of the past, and there is no evidence that it is of that

我完全相信，街头的鲍比们在履行职责时对这些一无所知。

I have absolutely no doubt that the Bobby on the street has gone about their job oblivious to this.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

但这并不是我想表达的重点。

But that is not what I'm getting at here.

我说的是，问题出在最顶端，树根已经腐烂了。

I'm talking about the the the the tree is rotten at the top.

但你没有任何

But you have no

证据支持这一点。

evidence of that.

你对此没有任何证据。

You have no evidence of that.

当然有证据，史蒂文。

Clearly, have evidence of it, Steven.

不要说没有证据。

Don't evidence of that.

当共谋被压制时，人们就说过这样的话。

People said that when collusion was muted.

人们当时就在说这件事。

People were saying it.

你现在也在说。

You're saying it now.

这是2014年、2016年的事。

This is four 2014, 2016.

你知道，史蒂文，求你了，我知道你必须保持平衡，但请也不要怪我。

You know, please, please, Steven, as you know, I understand you have to be balanced, but please don't blame me either.

尼尔，谢谢你。

Niall, thank you.

早上好，你也好。

Good morning, to you.

这再次强调了我们必须听取PSNI高级团队的意见，以及他们对此事的看法有多么重要。

Again, it doubles down on how important it is that we hear from that senior team of the PSNI and how they feel about this.

文森特·基尔尼今天早上表示，他甚至没有收到警方的道歉。

Vincent Kearney saying this morning he hasn't even received an apology from the police.

警方表示，在诉讼程序进行期间，发表任何言论都不合适。

The police saying it would be inappropriate to say anything while live proceedings, are ongoing.

如果警方已经公开承认其行为违法，那他们道歉又有什么不合适的呢？

Would it be inappropriate if the police have already it's out there in the public domain that the police acted illegally.

警方说‘我们很抱歉，这种情况再也不会发生’，这有什么不合适的？

What would be inappropriate about the police saying, we are sorry, this will never happen again?

为什么这会不合适？

Why would that be inappropriate?

安德森斯敦的保罗。

Paul in Andersonstown.

早上好，保罗。

Morning, Paul.

早上好，斯蒂芬。

Morning, Stephen.

我认为过去24小时的事件表明，这里有两个根本性问题。

I think what this what this, the events of the past twenty four hours have shown that there's two two fundamentals here.

绝对需要对PSNI或警方的行为，尤其是警方的安全措施展开公共调查。

There's an absolute need for a public inquiry, into the behavior of the PFNI or police services and especially the the police security

马刺。

The spurs.

我的建议。

And my advice.

我认为我们现在到了必须进行公共调查的阶段，以了解究竟发生了什么。

Think we need to I think we need we're we're at the stage now where we we need a public inquiry to see what's going on.

因为正如你刚才的来电者所说，这并不仅限于这三位先生。

Because as your previous caller now had said, it's not limited to these three these three gentlemen.

我怀疑政界人士和法律界人士也是这些机构的目标。

I would suspect that there's politicians and members of the legal profession also also the target of of these agencies.

第二点，正如你刚才的来电者所说，这也是民族主义者不愿加入警察协会的另一个原因。

And the second the second point is, as now your previous caller had said, this is another reason why nationalists are not joining the PSA.

这跟什么有关？

What's this got to do?

有什么

What have What has

这跟民族主义有什么关系？是什么在制造民族主义者与联合主义者之间的分裂？

this got to do with national how is there a nationalist unionist dividing this?

这个国家每一个守法的人都会认为，警察违法是错误的。

Every law abiding person in this country would think it is wrong for the police to act illegally.

难道你认为这只有针对民族主义者吗？

It's not like you do a nationalist, is it?

请让我把话说完，别插嘴打断我。

Can I finish my point, please, before you jump in on top of me?

我们看到文森特·基尔尼、特雷弗·伯尼和布莱恩·麦卡弗里所发生的事，完全让人想起皇家阿尔斯特警察的行为和作风。

This what we've seen with Vincent Kearney, Trevor Burney, and Brian McCaffrey is absolutely reminiscent of the actions and behaviors of the RUC.

这正是皇家阿尔斯特警察当年与军情五处等机构所做的事情。

This is what the RUC got up to with the with the MI five and so forth.

这就是我想表达的观点。

So that's the point that I'm trying to make.

我们正在目睹同样的行为。

We're seeing the same behaviors.

PSNI，或者PSNI中的某些部门，仍然背负着冲突的包袱。

The PSNI still on or certain elements of the PSNI still on a conflict burden.

没有任何证据表明他们在2014年之后参与过任何非法活动。

There is no evidence that they were on any type of illegal activity beyond beyond 2014.

完全没有任何证据。

No evidence whatsoever.

需要一个

Need a

公开调查。

public inquiry.

这就是我们需要公开调查的原因。

That's why we need a public inquiry.

作为一名记者，你 surely 会支持新闻工会所要求的公开调查。

And surely as a journalist, you would you support what the NUJ are asking for as a public inquiry.

是否进行公开调查，应当由你们所有人和外部机构来讨论其利弊。

It it is for all of you and outside bodies to discuss the merits or otherwise of a public inquiry.

作为主持人，在收听这个节目时，这不是我该做的事。

It's not for me while listening to this program while hosting this program.

我不该对此表达任何观点。

It's not for me to express an opinion on that.

你知道的，保罗。

You know that, Paul.

我，史蒂文，只是想澄清一点，但我觉得我们现在所处的阶段是，天知道还有多少人正被如此大规模地监控，这正是我想表达的重点。

I Steven, for for for a point for a point, but I think we're at the stage now where god knows how many other people are being surveilled to this extent, and that's the point I'm trying to make.

这就是皇家阿尔斯特警察的行为。

This is the behavior This is the behavior of the RUC.

这正是我们过去在皇家阿尔斯特警察身上看到的情况。

This is what we've seen in the past with the RUC.

正如你之前的嘉宾提到的关于共谋的问题，我们一直被灌输什么都没有。

As your previous contributor now has said about collusion, we're all fed nothing.

共谋根本不是问题。

The collusion wasn't an issue.

真正腐烂的是什么。

What about it was rotten.

那那些听这个故事的人呢？他们会不会想，当年军情五处、皇家阿尔斯特警察和PS9是否怀有某种更大的善意？

What about what about those who listen to this story, and they think to themselves, was there the intent of a greater good here from the MI five, from the RUC, from the PS nine in the past?

对。

Right.

不是皇家阿尔斯特警察，抱歉，是北爱尔兰警察局。

It wasn't the RUC, sorry, the PSNI.

如果他们试图揭露那些为记者提供信息的犯罪分子，那么他们的目的是为了更大的善，以阻止更多的犯罪。

In terms of in terms of if they were trying to uncover criminal elements who who who were sources to journalists, then they were trying for the greater good to stop further crime.

史蒂文，拜托，你别这样了。

Steven, come on now, will you?

听好了。

Look.

在特雷弗·伯尼和巴里·麦卡弗里案中，他们被逮捕是因为这两位先生揭露了警方所进行的非法行为。

In the case of Trevor Burney and Barry McCaffrey, they were arrested because those two gentlemen were exposing, exposing illegalities being carried out by the police.

他们揭露了警方参与非法活动的事实。

They exposed the police involvement in illegalities.

这就是这两个人被针对的原因。

That's why those two men were targeted.

所以，请别试图以‘为了更大的善’为借口来侮辱我，或者侮辱别人的智商。

So please don't insult me at my or other people's intelligence by trying to claim it's for the greater good.

我的意思是，你和我们住在这里。

I mean, you lived we live here.

你住在这里。

You live here.

我并没有声称什么。

I'm not claiming anything.

我只是在尝试呈现一些人可能持有的不同角度和立场。

I'm trying to put different angles and different positions that some people might have.

公平地说，

To be fair to

你啊，老兄。

you, mate.

这完全是胡说八道，你知道的。

That is nonsense You know

你相信现在的PSNI吗？

what Do trust the current PSNI?

绝对不。

Absolutely not.

绝对不。

Absolutely not.

为什么不？

Why not?

史蒂文，我能指出一点吗？

Steven, can I just point out?

我你已经

I'm You've

你听说了文森特·基尔尼，也听说了文森特·基尔尼和帕特里克·科里根说，现任总警司约翰·布彻对这些信息流入公共领域、供你获取负有责任。

heard you've heard Vincent Kearney and you've heard Vincent Kearney and Patrick Corrigan saying that the current chief constable, John Boucher, was responsible for some of this information getting into the public domain, being available to you.

这还算公平。

That's that's fair enough.

约翰·布彻只是一个人。

John Butcher is one individual.

约翰·巴彻尔只是一个人。

John Butcher is one individual.

在顶层。

At the top.

我谈的是在约翰·巴彻尔之下彻底腐烂的整个体系。

I'm talking about the I'm talking about the the rotten to the core system operating below John Butcher.

嗯，你说彻底腐烂，但你没有任何证据表明警察系统已经彻底腐烂。

Well, rotten to the core, you have no evidence that the police are rotten to the core.

调查。

Inquiry.

这是一次公开调查。

That's a public inquiry.

嗯，我支持这个观点

Well I'm a fan

你能不能说话更谨慎一点？

of wanna be more measured about your language?

我的史蒂文，我

My Steven, I

这对史蒂文来说有多侮辱性，

How insulting is that to the Steven,

史蒂文，对皇家阿尔斯特警察局及其行为有丰富的经验，

Steven, have a lot of experience with the RUC and their behaviors in the

过去。

past.

等一下。

Hold on a minute.

听好了。

Look.

今天早上我一直在保持平衡。

I I am being balanced this morning.

明白吗？

Okay?

今天早上，我对PACE提出了困难的问题，而且只要值得，我每天都会这样做。

And I'm asking difficult questions of the PACE and I this morning as I will do every day of the week where it's merited.

明白吗？

Okay?

但是，保罗，你难道不认为，对于那些在警队各级——无论是初级还是高级——都努力保护社区的男女警察来说，毫无证据地断言整个警队腐败透顶，这种说法太过分了，也贬低了你合理的观点吗？

But do you not think, Paul, for those men and women who get up at all different levels, both the junior level and a senior level of the police, and they're in it to try to protect the community, do you not think it's over the top and belittles your legitimate comments to suggest without any evidence that the whole service is rotten to the core?

不认为。

No.

不认为。

No.

不认为。

No.

不认为。

No.

你没有证据能这么说。

You do not have the evidence to say that.

别把话说得好像我讲过那样，史蒂文。

Do do not put words in my mouth, Steven.

我说的是约翰·巴彻尔下面的那条车道。

I said the lane below John Butcher.

有人下达了命令去做这些事。

Someone's given orders to do these things.

我不是在谈论在街上巡逻、执行交通拦截的警察和女警。

I'm not talking about the policeman and police policewoman on the street walking about doing traffic stops and so forth.

我不是在说这个。

I'm not talking about that.

我谈的是高层管理，那些制定

I'm talking about the upper management, the people who are making

还有你根本没有邮件。

the And and and you have no mail.

你们记者，那件事一直到20年都是这样。

You journalists That that was up until 20 look.

我今天只想基于事实来建立这个项目。

I just wanna base this program on fact today.

事实是，这种情况一直持续到2014年。

And the fact is that was up until 2014.

绝对没有任何证据表明，当前任何层级的管理层与此事有关。

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that any tier of management, current day management, were involved in this.

然而，高层管理层仍有一些问题需要回答，其中一些问题我今天上午已经向他们提出了。

However, there are questions to be answered by upper management, some of which I've put to them this morning.

你们现在的警官中，有没有人是那些对记者进行非法监控的罪犯？

Are any of your current day officers the criminals who undertook illegal activity snooping on journalists?

听好了，BBC在这件事中也扮演了一部分角色，你今天听到了帕特里克·科里根说，正是BBC的法律团队协助并率先与文森特·基尔尼合作，推动真相曝光，并让警方对此负责。

Now look, the BBC had a part to play in this, and that you heard Patrick Corrigan saying today that it is the BBC legal team who has assisted and been at the forefront of of of working alongside Vincent Kearney to get the truth out there and hold the police to account for this.

BBC北爱尔兰的总监亚当·史密斯今天上午也在《早安》节目中发表了讲话。

The director of BBC Northern Ireland, Adam Smith, was speaking with good morning, also, this morning.

他说，执法部门在本案中的监控程度缺乏正当理由。

He said law enforcement did not meet the justification for the level of surveillance in this case.

我们为公共利益进行报道的基本自由是一个极高的标准，执法机构若要开展此类活动，必须达到这一标准，而在此案中，他们绝对没有达到。

The fundamental freedom that we have to report in the public interest is a very, very high bar which law enforcement agencies would have to get over if they were to engage in this kind of activity, and there is absolutely no way that they got over that bar in this case.

亚当·史密斯也被问及，他现在希望从调查结果中获得什么。

Adam Smith was also asked what he now wants from the findings.

我们希望得到承认，这种行为是不成比例的。

We want an acknowledgement that this was disproportionate.

我们希望确认此类事件绝不可能再次发生。

We want a confirmation that this cannot possibly happen again.

我们希望彻底明确，为何我们会被如此对待。

We would like absolute clarity on the reasons why we have been treated in this way.

昨天，我们多次被告知：我们无法提供更多信息。

We were told yesterday on numerous occasions, well we can't provide you with any more detail.

相关文件不存在。

Documents aren't there.

我们无法召任何人来解释这些授权为何被作出。

We can't call anybody to explain why these authorizations were made.

在如此多涉及公共利益新闻重要性的情况下，我们完全不清楚是否进行了任何适当的审查。

We are left with absolutely no idea whether any proper test was carried out in so many of these circumstances that sought to understand the importance of public interest journalism Okay.

在一个民主社会中。

In a in a a a democracy.

谢谢。

Thank you.

完全缺失。

Completely absent.

在十二年里完全缺失。

Completely absent in twelve years.

这是错误的，我们希望通过这一过程得到承认。

That is wrong, and we want that acknowledged through this process.

作为BBC北爱尔兰的总监，亚当·史密斯今天早上在《早安乌尔斯特》节目中表示，我们向您承诺，作为节目方，我们将继续向相关人士提出正确的问题，并为您争取答案。

As the director of BBC Northern Ireland, Adam Smith speaking to Good Morning Ulster this morning, we promise you as a program that we will continue to put the right questions to the right people and demand answers on your behalf.

03030805555。

03030805555.

来自BBC北爱尔兰的iPlayer平台，全新焦点报道。

From BBC Northern Ireland on iPlayer, brand new spotlight.

这些人拿钱时，就像约翰·迪林杰或比利小子一样。

These people took the money like they were John Dillinger or Billy the Kid.

打击一伙骗子团伙。

Cracking down a gang of con men.

他只需要二十万美元给我。

All he needs is 200,000 for me.

没什么大不了的。

Not a big deal.

他们是爱尔兰人。

They're Irish.

我愿意和你谈判。

I'm willing to negotiate with you.

而他们在美国一点一点地骗走数百万美元。

And they're in America ripping off millions of dollars bit by bit.

总计，还需要额外的20,000美元。

All in, it's gonna be an additional 20,000.

被称为流动军医。

Known as the traveling corpsman.

他们正被联邦调查局追捕。

They're being hunted by the FBI.

他们尽可能从受害者身上榨取钱财。

They gouge their victims for as much money as they can get out of them.

焦点节目：流动军医。

Spotlight, the traveling corpsmen.

请在BBC iPlayer上观看。

Watch on BBC iPlayer.

好的。

Right.

我们接下来谈一下MLA薪酬吧？

Shall we move on to MLA pay?

我认为，《诺兰秀》现在已经是第三天报道这件事了。

I think it's the third day now The Nolan Show has covered this.

这仍然是一个我们无法从北爱尔兰各政党那里获得全面答复的问题，关于从你们工资中扣除的钱。

It continues to be a story where we cannot get, fulsome answers from political parties in Northern Ireland about your money that's coming out of your pay packets.

因此，一个独立的薪酬审查机构负责决定北爱尔兰政界人士是否应该加薪。

So an independent pay review body, they are the people who decide, whether politicians should get pay rises in Northern Ireland.

这个独立的薪酬审查机构是由北爱尔兰议会议员自己设立的。

That independent pay review body was set up by the MLAs themselves.

我们昨天在这个节目中告诉过你们，当你们在新闻简报中听到正在进行一项咨询时，我们昨天已经揭露了，关于你们的税款如何用于议员加薪的这项咨询，其设计方式根本未让公众参与。

We told you yesterday on this program that when you're hearing in news bulletins about there is a consultation going on, We revealed to you yesterday that that consultation about how your money is spent for pay rises to the MLAs, it has been set up in such a way that you, the public, are not consulted.

所以不要以为‘咨询’就意味着你们被正式赋予了参与的权利。

So don't be thinking that a consultation means you have been given a formal role in doing so.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

猜猜谁被要求提供意见？

Guess who are being asked to be consulted?

就是这些政客。

The politicians.

所以，政客们被要求反馈他们是否应该获得27%的加薪，那么各政党又在做什么呢？

So the politicians are being asked to feedback about whether they should get a 27% pay rise, and then what are the political parties doing?

你们熟知的许多政党都说，这取决于薪酬审查机构，他们对护士、搬运工和其他公共部门人员、警察以及相关群体只能获得23%加薪一事，却从不表达任何立场。

Many of your household name political parties are saying well it's up to the pay review body, they're not expressing an opinion as to when they are telling you that 23% of a pay rise is all that can be afforded for nurses and and porters and other people in the public sector, police officers, and all that comes with it.

他们表示理解你们的愤怒，但实际上并未明确告知你们，他们是会接受这笔加薪还是反对它。

They are saying they can understand your anger, but they're actually not telling you whether they're going to accept the money or fight against it.

他们也没有告诉你们，今年27%的加薪是合理还是不合理。

They're not telling you whether they think 27% of a pay rise this year is appropriate or inappropriate.

目前，北爱尔兰的平均工资为37,100英镑，而议员的现行薪资为53,000英镑，将于四月再上涨27%至67,000英镑。

Now the average wage that you're earning in Northern Ireland £37,100 and MLA's current salary 53,000 due to go up another 27% in April to $67.

吉拉丁昨晚在BBC一台直播中联系了诺兰，她就职于医疗系统，以下是她对提议的27%加薪的反应。

Geraldine called Nolan live on BBC One last night, she works for the health service, Here's her reaction to the 27% proposed pay hike.

我在医院做保洁工作，我为此感到自豪。

I'm domestic in the hospital, and I'm proud of it.

但我想说的是，我们去年已经涨过一次工资，却等了一年才拿到3.6%的涨幅。

But what I'm saying is we got a pay raise from last year, and we had to wait three we had to wait a year for 3.6.

上周我们还得把那笔钱还回去。

We gotta pay it back last week.

有很多人正在使用食品银行。

There's people on food banks.

有人确实如此。

There's people Yeah.

他们在经历着什么。

Going to what they're going through.

我们身处一线。

We're on the front line.

我们挽救生命。

We save lives.

风暴行动对我们毫无帮助。

Stormout do nothing for us.

这是27%的加薪。

It's 27% of a pay increase.

这会把他们的年薪提高到67,000英镑，杰拉尔丁。

It would bring them up to £67,000 a year, Geraldine.

再加上交通补贴。

Plus travel.

14,000英镑的加薪。

14,000 pay raise.

我们只拿到了17英镑的加薪。

We got £17 pay raise.

是的。

Yep.

而且我们还得等一年。

And we have to wait a year.

从一年到下一年，他们才能拿到这笔钱。

From one year to the next, they receive that.

杰拉尔丁，想到他们不愿直视你、亲口告诉你他们为何要做这个决定——如果他们真打算这么做的话——你有什么感受？

Geraldine, how does it make you feel that they won't look you in the eye and tell you and tell you why they are deciding to take it, if that's what they are doing?

这让你有什么感觉？

How does that make you feel?

太难过了。

So sad.

真的非常难过。

Absolutely sad.

听我说，我在医院工作，我所目睹的一切，我在那里已经二十五年了。

Listen, I work in I I what I've witnessed, what I've seen in hospitals, I'm there twenty five years.

我所看到和经历的一切，是MLA礼堂根本做不到的。

What I have seen and witnessed, the MLA Auditorium couldn't do.

不。

No.

杰拉丁，他们不会做的另一件事是，他们正在争论，杰拉丁，对吧，他们只是采纳了独立薪酬审查机构的建议。

Geraldine, the other thing they won't do because they they are arguing, Geraldine, right, that they're taking what an independent pay review body is offering them.

这背后是有逻辑的。

And there is a logic to that.

他们并没有自己做决定。

They're not deciding it themselves.

但他们已经操纵了规则，斯蒂芬。

But they loaded the dice, Stephen.

独立运作。

Arm's length.

他们操纵了规则。

They loaded the dice.

独立运作，对吧？

Arm's length, right?

但杰拉丁，想到公众——你们所有人，钱是从你们的口袋里掏出来的，这让你有什么感受？

But Geraldine, how does it make you feel that the public, all of you, from whom you the money's coming out of your pocket.

北爱尔兰的制度设计成这样：咨询的对象是那些把钱装进自己口袋的人，而不是像你这样的人。

The system in Northern Ireland is set up so that the consultation is done with the people who are putting the money in their pocket, and it's not done with people like you.

这让你有什么感受？

How does that make you feel?

羞愧。

Ashamed.

羞愧到甚至不敢说这个国家还有议员。

Ashamed to even say that there's MLAs in this country.

我觉得这应该让人震惊，应该被废除。

I think it should be a shock, that it should be abolished.

所有这些都该被废除。

It all should be abolished.

这简直是一团糟。

It's a scrape.

你说你在医疗卫生系统工作，是吗？

Do you you say you work in the health service.

你的具体工作是什么？

What's your job specifically?

我的工作是医院里的保洁员，照顾生病的孩子。

My job is a domestic in the hospital, and I look after sick children.

我可以问一下你一年挣多少吗？

And do you mind me asking how much you earn a year?

我的时薪是12.21英镑，但我得付账单。

Well, my pay salary is £12.21 an hour, and I have I have to pay my bills.

是的。

Yeah.

我们确实加班，是的。

And we do work overtime Yeah.

加班只是为了挣口饭吃。

Above overtime to just earn a living.

那么，你会...你每周...

So much would you How much would you how

你每周实际到手多少钱？

much would you take home a week?

我每周工作三十小时，每周收入330英镑。

I work thirty hours a week, and I get £330 a week.

而且我有账单要付，还有孩子要照顾。

And I have bills to pay, and I have children to serve.

这简直是一团糟。

It's a shambles.

我会在今天早间新闻后播放这些片段，但你看民主统一党、阿尔斯特统一党、新芬党，他们都在说同样的话，就是他们能理解你对此的感受，但这应该由独立的薪酬机构来裁定。

I'll play the clips after the news this morning, but you have the DUP, the Ulster Unionist Party, Sinn Fein, they're they're all saying the same thing, which is they can understand how you feel about this, but it's for the independent pay body to to to adjudicate.

所以，他们中没有一方明确表态，认为提供这笔钱是对还是错。

So none of them are saying whether it's right or wrong for them to have been offered this money.

我还没听到这个，所以我们会一起听。

Now I haven't heard this yet, so we'll hear it at the same time together.

STLP领导人克莱尔·汉娜今天早上在Radio Foil的《西北今日》节目中接受了伊莲·麦吉的采访。

The STLP leader, Claire Hannah, spoke to Elaine McGee on Radio Foil's Northwest Today program this morning.

让我们听听这位领导人的说法。

So let's have a listen to what the leader said.

人们对议员薪酬感到不满，因为他们认为风暴议会无所作为。

People are annoyed about the MLA pay because they don't think that Stormont does anything.

他们觉得，你知道，我们都知道立法的成果微乎其微。

They think the store you know, we know there's tiny amounts of legislation.

大家只是在原地打转，空谈不断。

There's a lot of talking around, in circles.

政府施政计划中的各项内容都没有取得进展，公共服务每天都在恶化。

The things that were in the the executives program for government haven't advanced, and public services seem to be deteriorating by the day.

这就是人们对议员薪酬如此不满的原因。

That's why people are so frustrated about MLA pay.

我们主张，只要对风暴议会进行几项切实可行的改革，就能让它真正发挥作用，

And we are saying that with there are a few achievable reforms of storming that would make it deliver,

这将使

that would make

那么就该轮到它了。

it time around then.

你们的议员将会

Your MLAs would

那时接受加薪。

be accepting the pay rise then.

但是，伊莲，他们真正想要的是更好的工作条件。

But but but what they want, Elaine, is better working conditions.

他们希望能够为民众提供服务。

They want to be able to deliver for people.

这掌握在执政党手中。

That's in the hands of the executive party.

这掌握在执政党手中，伊莱安。

The the it's in the hands of the executive party, Ilyan.

如果你只想谈薪酬问题，我们提出的方案是解决斯特蒙特运作方式的问题，重建公众信任。

If you want to make it just about pay, we are saying there are proposals on the on the table to fix how Stormont works, fix this crisis of public trust.

为什么我们不把这两件事一起做呢？

Why don't we do those two things together?

是的。

Yes.

给议员加薪，但同时也要改善斯特蒙特的运作方式。

Pay MLAs, but fix how, how Stormont works.

我们认为，这是执行政党抓住机遇、支持改革斯特蒙特提案的绝佳机会，让其更好运作，并重新赢得人民的信任。

We think this is a golden opportunity for the executive parties to get on board with proposals to reform Stormont, make it work better, and make people actually believe in it again.

通过提高薪酬。

By getting a pay raise.

因为归根结底就是这么回事。

Because that's what it comes down to.

但那样的话，好吧。

But then yeah.

但那就像，不过我明白你的意思。

But but that's like and but I get what you're saying.

你为什么不回应我刚才提出的建议呢？

Why won't you engage with the proposal that I've just said?

我的意思是，你为什么不提出

I mean, why why don't you put

事实上，薪酬委员会自己已经就议会薪酬在议会解散情况下的处理方式提出了建议。

it to this is but the the the determination, the pay body themselves, have made proposals about what we'll do with assembly pay in the event of Stormont collapsing.

他们自己已经将这一议题引向改革，恰当地介入了关于必要改革的讨论，尽管目前处于休眠状态。

They themselves have made this a conversation about reform, stepped into the space, rightly, of talking about absolutely essential reforms, Dormant.

我们认为这是一个绝佳的机会，我们会将此提议提交给其他政党。

We think this is a golden opportunity, and we will put it up to the other parties.

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，我认为这会带来一个薪酬方面的结果。

I mean, I think a pay a pay outcome out of that.

我们并不反对这一点，但应借此机会让这一机制真正实现其预期目的。

We're not, against that, but use this as an opportunity to actually make the thing, work for its intended purpose.

我们为什么不好好把握这个机会呢？

Why why would we not take this opportunity?

好了，克莱尔，别这样。

Come on now, Claire.

今年薪资上涨27%。

27% pay increase this year.

你认为你们党应该接受这个方案吗？

Do you think your party should accept that?

是或不是？

Yes or no?

同样的问题也问你们，米歇尔·奥尼尔，还有你，加文·罗宾逊，以及你，娜奥米·朗。

And the same question to you, Michelle O'Neil, and to you, Gavin Robinson, and to you, Naomi Long.

记得你们最近对律师们说过什么吗？

Remember what you have told the barristers recently?

今年是27%。

27% this year.

这对你们每个人来说是否可以接受？

Is that acceptable to each of you or not?

当一项授权变成一项突破时会发生什么？

Happens when a mandate becomes a breakthrough?

我是Neshita Henry，Resilient Edge的特邀主持人，这是一档由德勤赞助并呈现的商业活力播客。

I'm Neshita Henry, special host of Resilient Edge, a business vitality podcast paid and presented by Deloitte.

我与两位正在重新定义企业转型面貌的领导者进行了深入交流。

I sat down with two leaders who are redefining what enterprise transformation looks like.

德勤的杰里·霍格曼和AWS的莎拉·奥莱古德带我深入幕后，了解制造业、政府和全球企业如何通过重大的系统变革实现演进。

Jerry Hogerman from Deloitte and Sarah Olegud from AWS took me behind the scenes on how manufacturing, government, and global enterprises are evolving through major systems change.

最让我兴奋的是，当我们取得这些突破性进展时，这一切都不是偶然发生的。

What excites me is when we have these breakthrough moments, that this stuff doesn't happen by accident.

AWS、德勤和SAP这三方联盟，能够理解人们所追求的价值主张，能够设计出相应的架构，然后切实地制定出逐步实现目标的路线图，这确实是这些成功案例的关键所在。

The triad of AWS, of Deloitte, of SAP, being able to understand the value proposition that people seek, being able to architect that, and then actually to define a roadmap to progressively achieve the goal really is what makes these successful.

让员工改变他们与技术互动的方式、遵循流程的方式，或者彻底重新发明流程并完全抛弃旧有体系，是非常具有挑战性的。

Getting your humans to change the way they're interacting with their technology, the way that they're following the processes, or just that they're reinventing altogether and we're going to completely throw something out is very challenging.

以下是值得注意的地方。

Here's what stood out.

2027年SAP的截止期限不是一个合规问题。

The 2027 SAP deadline isn't a compliance problem.

而是一次战略重置，是重新思考价值创造方式的机会。

It's a strategic reset, a chance to rethink how value is created.

如果你的愿景是十年期的，那么你的投资回报率将与一年或两年期的愿景大不相同。

If your vision is across a ten year horizon, your ROI is going to be different than if your vision is across a one or two year horizon.

那么，如何在不拖慢业务速度的情况下，迁移数十年的系统和数据呢？

So how do you move decades of systems and data without slowing the business down?

如何在为未来做准备的同时简化运营？

And how do you simplify operations while preparing for what comes next?

从遗留系统到人工智能就绪的基础设施，这场完整对话揭示了德勤、AWS和SAP如何帮助组织降低风险并实现持续创新。

From legacy systems to AI ready infrastructure, the full conversation reveals how Deloitte, AWS, and SAP help organizations reduce risk and unlock continuous innovation.

所有这些内容，尽在本期《韧性边缘》特别节目中。

All of that and more on this special episode of Resilient Edge.

在您收听播客的任何平台都能找到我们。

Find us wherever you listen to podcasts.

我们专注于

We focus on the part of

大多数人不了解的互联网部分。

the Internet that most people don't know about.

它被称为暗网。

It's called the dark web.

在暗网最隐秘的角落卧底的美国特工，正执行任务，寻找并解救遭受虐待的儿童。

Undercover in the furthest corners of the dark web, US special agents are on a mission to locate and rescue children from abuse.

现在行动。

Move in now.

从

From

BBC世界服务的《秘密世界》深入黑暗网络，追踪他们令人震惊的调查。

the BBC World Service, World of Secrets, the darkest web follows their shocking investigations.

在bbc.com或您收听BBC播客的任何平台收听。

Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

艾米莉、佩格、伊恩。

Emily, Peg, Ian.

看。

Look.

你得注意这一点。

You've gotta clock this.

明白吗？

Okay?

你一定要注意这一点，这非常重要。

It's really important that you clock this.

苏格兰和威尔士的同类职位收入远高于他们，即便如此，你们北爱尔兰的MLA目前薪资也只有53美元。

Their equivalents in Scotland and Wales earn a lot more than them, and even after so they're currently on your MLA's here in Northern Ireland, they're currently on $53.

他们的薪酬，也就是提议的加薪，尚未最终确定，但提议的加薪将使他们的薪资提升至67000美元。

Their pay their proposed pay increase, it's not nailed down yet, but the proposed pay increase would bring them up to $67.

所以对比一下苏格兰和威尔士，他们的薪资在7万多到8万美元之间；再对比一下英国南部，那里的薪资已经超过118000欧元。

So compare that compare that with Scotland and and Wales, They're anywhere between 70 odd grand and $80, then compare that, to down south where they're getting over a €118,000.

对吧？

Right?

因此，英国和爱尔兰其他地区的政客收入要高得多，所以在对这个问题形成看法时，你得全面考虑。

And so politicians elsewhere in The UK and Ireland are earning a lot more, so you've got to be rounded when forming your opinion about this.

但这关乎时机，不是吗？

But it's about timing, isn't it?

与此同时，那个名为斯特莫恩的机构却告诉你们所有人：如果你们在公共部门工作，我们勉强只能负担2%到3%的加薪，我们仅能勉强承担这一点。

At the same time as that very body, Stormont, is telling all of you, if you work in the public sector, we can just about afford two or 3% here, we can just about afford that.

他们并没有表达任何观点，也没有试图回避表态——即是否应该给自己涨27%的工资，还是应该挺身而出，说这并不合适。

They are not expressing an opinion or attempting to get away with not expressing an opinion as to whether they should be putting a 27% pay increase into their pocket or standing up tall and saying, that is inappropriate.

现在，TUV党的蒂莫西·加斯顿表示，他获得的任何加薪都将捐给慈善机构。

Now the TUV, Timothy Gaston from the TUV has said, any pay increase that he gets, he will donate to charity.

民主统一党、新芬党、联盟党——我们刚才播放了克莱尔·汉诺德的片段，因为她今天在福伊尔的《西北今日》节目中——他们都坚持不对此27%加薪是否合适发表意见的立场，而是表示这应由独立的薪酬审查机构来决定。

The DUP, Sinn Fein, the Alliance Party we played Claire Hanold there because she was on North West today in Foyle they are all holding this line of not expressing an opinion on the appropriateness or otherwise of that 27% increase, but saying it's for the pay independent pay review body to decide.

贝尔法斯特的托尼，你怎么看？

Tony in Belfast, what do you think?

你好，史蒂文。

Hi, Steven.

嗯，真的很愤怒。

Well, anger really.

刚才在新闻前听到，或者说你提到的关于北爱尔兰最低工资或最低收入标准，以及人们大致能拿到手的钱。

Just listening to just before the news or what you were saying about the minimum wage or sort of the minimum intake for NI, and then what people are sort of roughly taking home.

你知道，我是在零售行业工作的。

You know, I I work in sort of the trade retail section.

而且，目前我每年到手的收入大约至少有3万英镑。

And, you know, I'm, at the moment, I'm taking home about at least 30 k annual.

所以我基本上是靠周薪生活，你知道，日复一日，月复一月，而且我家里人口比较多，所以，你知道，这也没什么好抱怨的。

So I am I'm sort of living week to week, you know, day to day, month to month, you know, sort of you know, I've I've quite a large family, so, you know, nothing against that.

你知道，我特别爱我的孩子，所以我为他们省吃俭用。

You know, I I love love my kids, you know, why I have a downlink for them.

但你知道，开销实在太大了。

But, you know, it it's it's expansive.

现在什么东西都涨价了。

Things are expansive now.

当你听到那些政客们想要涨27.5%的时候，你知道，我能涨3%就不错了。

And, you know, when you hear things they got, you know, with politicians wanting this 27 and a half percent increase, like, you know, I I I'm lucky to get 3%.

今年新财年，我只得到了3%的加薪，这是我上一年工作的结果。

3% increase here for the the new financial year for whatever I worked the year before.

这真的很难熬。

It it's it's tough.

真的、真的很难熬。

It's really, really tough.

然后你再听到这些消息，这些政客们，他们真的能说得通吗？

And then you you hear things like that, and, you know, these politicians again, you know, can can can they justify it?

他们能站出来为我们解释原因吗？

Can they stand by it and tell us why?

他们的理由。

Well, they're they're justification.

理由。

Justification.

听好了。

Look.

听好了。

Look.

有些人根本没有做出解释。

Some of them haven't justified it.

有些人试图逃避对此发表看法。

Some of them are trying to get away with not expressing a view on it

是的。

Yeah.

除了说我们理解你们的愤怒，但这就是独立薪酬审查委员会提出的方案。

Beyond saying it's we understand your anger, but that's what the independent pay review board have come up with.

这对你们来说足够了吗？

Is that good enough for you?

不。

No.

我不这么认为。

I don't think it is.

不。

No.

不。

No.

这个独立薪酬审查委员会是由议员们委任的。

This independent pay review who's charged by the MLAs.

所以，你们知道，为什么我们不能让其他两个地方的人来对这个进行独立审查呢？这纯粹只是让人沮丧而已。

So, you know, why why can't we not have an independent review of that from somebody from the But, other two coming you know, it it's just it's it's it's frustrating more than anything.

你知道吗，昨晚你节目里请了那个在医院工作的女孩。

You know, we had that girl on your show last night who was talking to who worked in the hospital.

你知道，我妹妹刚成为一名心脏科护士。

You know, my sister has just qualified as a cardiac nurse.

她在皇家维多利亚医院工作。

So she has in the Royal Victoria Hospital.

你知道，她的收入也没比我的高多少。

And, you know, she's not getting much more than myself.

说到底，她是个救死扶伤的护士，收入大概也就那样吧。

Not she's a nurse saving lives at the end of the day, and she's probably getting about right.

她挣的也不会比我多多少，但我挺欣赏这一点的。

Well, she'll not be getting much more than me, but I like that.

而且她付出了很多。

And she's so a a lot.

她做的工作比我重要得多。

She she does a far more important job than what I do.

你知道，这真的非常令人沮丧。

You know, it's just it's really frustrating.

你知道，我也有孩子，他们需要在学校里得到支持。

You know, when you you I I have children as well who, you know, who need Sankar in school.

而且，学校在这方面也面临着巨大的困难。

And with that as well, we're the schools are struggling big time with it.

你知道，老师们已经筋疲力尽了。

You know, teachers are on their knees.

紧急服务部门，你知道的，所有人，听到这类事情，最让人感到沮丧。

The emergency services, everybody you know, it's just it's frustrating more than anything when you hear stuff like this.

你想对他们说什么？

What do you say to them?

那么，我们昨晚在诺兰生活节目上看到米歇尔·奥尼尔和艾玛·利特尔·彭格利，你觉得怎么样？

So what do you say we we saw Michelle O'Neil and Emma Little Pengelly on Nolan Life last night

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

他们基本上表示理解。

Basically saying they understand.

他们理解公众的情绪，但认为应由独立的薪酬审查机构来处理。

They understand public sentiment, but it's for an independent pay review body.

联盟党持相同立场。

Alliance are of the same position.

STLP，你今天早上听了克莱尔·汉娜的发言。

The STLP, you you heard Clare Hanna, this morning.

约翰·伯罗斯表示，新任乌尔斯特统一党领袖也说了同样的话。

John Burrows has said new leader of the UUP has said the same thing.

应该由独立的薪酬审查机构来处理。

It's for an independent pay review body.

你对今天早上这些政治领导人怎么说？

What do you say to all those political leaders this morning?

跟我们说说。

Speak to us.

跟人民谈谈。

Speak to the people.

来跟我们解释一下，为什么你要这么做？

Come and justify what what why justify to us why.

比如，我不能去对我的老板说：我能加薪吗？

Like, I can't go to my boss and say to him, can I have a pay increase?

那好，你凭什么觉得你应该加薪？

Well, justified to me why why would you want a pay increase?

哦，就因为我想要去见人民。

Oh, just because I wanna come to the people.

我们才是把这些人推上位的人。

We are the one we are the people that put these people in.

你知道的？

You know?

就像我说的，我也是个税务经理，史蒂文。

And like I said, I'm a tax manager as well, Steven.