英国谴责伊朗对迪戈加西亚基地的袭击

这个BBC播客由英国境外的广告支持。

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside The UK.

我们关注的是

We focus on the part of

大多数人不知道的互联网部分。

the Internet that most people don't know about.

它被称为暗网。

It's called the dark

网络。

web.

在美国暗网最隐秘的角落，特工们正执行任务，寻找并营救遭受虐待的儿童。

Undercover in the furthest corners of the dark web, US special agents are on a mission to locate and rescue children from abuse.

现在行动。

Move in now.

从

From

BBC世界服务《秘密世界》节目，带您深入最黑暗的网络，追踪他们令人震惊的调查。

the BBC World Service, World of Secrets, the darkest web follows their shocking investigations.

请在bbc.com或您收听BBC播客的任何平台收听。

Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

现在可在BBC世界服务的纪录片中收听。

Available now on the documentary from the BBC World Service.

请和我一起，阿洛克·帕特尔，结识顶尖科学家、企业家和宇航员，讲述印度太空革命的非凡故事。

Join me, Alok Patel, as I meet leading scientists, entrepreneurs, and astronauts to tell the extraordinary story of India's space revolution.

随着该国首次载人航天任务临近，压力日益增大。

With the country's first human spaceflight mission on the horizon, the pressure is on.

请在您收听BBC播客的任何平台搜索并收听这部纪录片。

Listen now by searching for the documentary wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

您好，欢迎收听BBC世界服务《新闻时事》节目，本节目从伦敦现场直播。

Hello, and welcome to NewsHour from the BBC World Service coming live from London.

我是欧文·贝内特·琼斯。

This is Owen Bennett Jones.

目前，以色列军方表示，一枚伊朗导弹击中了以色列南部靠近一处关键核设施的城镇，造成30多人受伤。

Now the Israeli military says an Iranian missile has struck a town in Southern Israel near to a key nuclear facility, injuring more than 30 people.

国际原子能机构表示，尚未收到该设施本身受损的任何迹象。

The International Atomic Energy Agency said it had received no indication of damage to the facility itself.

以色列的阿拉德镇也遭到袭击，我们将在大约三十分钟后了解更多情况。

The town of Arad in Israel has also been hit, and we'll hear more about that in thirty minutes or so.

我们有一位记者就在现场附近。

We've got a journalist near the scene there.

但首先，伊朗决定攻击英国在印度洋的军事基地——迪戈加西亚，这引发了重要问题。

But, first, the decision of Iran to attack a UK Indian Ocean military bases, Diego Garcia, and that's raised important issues.

实际上，导弹未能击中目标。

The missiles actually failed to hit the target.

但即便如此，迪戈加西亚距离伊朗近4000公里。

But even so, Diego Garcia is nearly 4,000 kilometers from Iran.

那么，伊朗导弹的实际射程究竟是多少？

So what actually is the range of Iran's missile capability?

在美國和以色列多次聲稱伊朗軍事能力已被嚴重削弱之後，伊朗怎麼還能發射這種導彈？

And after all the statements from The US and Israel about how Iran's military capacity has been so heavily degraded, How come Iran can still launch missiles of this kind?

英國最近表示美國可以使用迪戈加西亞，但伊朗的導彈襲擊似乎發生在英國做出這一決定之前。

Well, The UK recently said The US could use Diego Garcia, but it seems the Iranian missile strikes came before that UK decision.

以色列軍方負責人阿爾·扎米爾今晚表示，這次襲擊表明伊朗的導彈威脅遠遠超出了中東地區。

The head of the Israeli military, Al Zamir, said this evening, the attack shows the Iranian missile threat goes far beyond the Middle East.

那裡

There

美國、以色列以及整個地區有著共同的利益和消除對其生存威脅的承諾。

is a common interest, a commitment for the removal of an existential threat from Israel, The US, and from the entire region.

就在昨天，伊朗發射了一枚射程達4000公里的兩級洲際彈道導彈，目標是迪戈加西亞島上的美國設施。

Just yesterday, Iran has launched a two stage ICBM with a range of 4,000 kilometers towards an American target in the island of Diego Garcia.

這些導彈並非針對以色列。

These missiles are not aimed to hurt Israel.

它們的射程可達歐洲首都。

Their range reaches European capitals.

柏林、巴黎、罗马

Berlin, Paris, Rome,

它们都处于直接威胁范围内。

all of them are

处于直接威胁范围内。

under a direct threat range.

嗯，

Well,

关于印度洋这次导弹袭击，BBC世界事务记者乔·因伍德为我们梳理了已知的针对迪戈加西亚发射的导弹情况。

a bit more on this missile attack in the Indian Ocean, the BBC's world affairs correspondent, Joe Inwood, on what we know about the missiles fired at Diego Garcia.

我们了解到，有两枚弹道导弹被发射出去。

We understand that there were two ballistic missiles that were fired.

我们应该说明，这一切都是我们的了解。

We should say all of this is sort of our understanding.

没有任何政府明确说明发生了什么，但据信其中一枚导弹在飞行过程中某处失败了。

No government has come out and clearly said what happened, but it's understood that one of them failed at some point during its flight.

我们不知道它飞了多远，而另一枚似乎被美国的防空系统击落了。

We don't know how far it got, and the other one appears to have been shot down by American air defenses.

但你知道，政府并没有确认这一点，但也没有否认。

But, you know, the government is not confirming it, but they're not denying it either.

我认为普遍认为，这显然是伊朗试图攻击该基地。

And I think it's quite widely accepted that there was clearly an Iranian attempt to attack the base.

令人惊讶的是，伊朗拥有这种射程的导弹，因为此前他们曾表示会将导弹射程限制在2000公里以内，但这一限制一直被认为更多是政治性的，而非技术性的。

Well, it is striking that Iran has missiles with this range, largely because they previously said they would limit their missiles to 2,000 kilometers, but that limit was always understood to be more of a political than a technical one.

西娜·阿佐迪是美国乔治·华盛顿大学中东研究项目的主任，也是《伊朗与核弹：美国、伊朗与核问题》一书的作者。

Sina Azodi is director of the Middle East studies program at George Washington University in The US and the author of Iran and the bomb, United States Iran, and the nuclear question.

他向我进一步讲述了更多情况。

He told me more.

他们曾公开宣布，虽然具备生产和部署更远程导弹的能力与技术，但认为没有必要扩大射程。

They had announced it publicly that while they have the capacity and the technology to produce missiles with longer ranges, they didn't see any need to expand it.

但正如我们昨晚所见，显然已经做出了政治决定，使用更远程的导弹，因为显然存在这种需求。

But seemingly, as we just saw what happened last night, there there has been a political decision to use longer range missiles because apparently there was a need.

你对这些导弹发射阵地没有被摧毁感到惊讶吗？

Are you surprised that these sites the missile launch sites weren't destroyed?

我的意思是，美国和以色列已经

I mean, The US and Israel have been

持续数周进行猛烈轰炸，并称他们已经削弱了伊朗的能力，这显然属实。

at it for some weeks with very heavy bombardments, and they say they've, you know, degraded Iran's capacity, which clearly they have.

但你对这个导弹发射阵地仍然能正常运作感到惊讶吗？

But, are you surprised that this missile launch site is still functional?

嗯，我并不惊讶自己不感到意外。

Well, I am surprised that I'm not.

有报道称，根据美国的说法，伊朗77%的导弹能力已被摧毁，但仍有23%的导弹仍在发射。

There was a reporting that based on American claims that 77% of Iran's missile capacity has been destroyed, but there's that 23% that is has been still launching.

此外，自2025年6月与以色列为期十二天的战争结束以来，伊朗一直在为此做准备。

There's also the fact that Iranians, since the end of the June 2025 conflict, the twelve day war with Israel, they have been preparing for this.

他们投入了大量资源重建伊朗的导弹能力，因为他们相信以色列会再次发动冲突，停火并不稳定，下一轮冲突很快就会到来。

They had invested so much resources in rebuilding Iran's missile capacity because they believed that there would be another episode of conflict with Israel, that the ceasefire was not stable, and another round would be coming very soon.

这就是为什么他们投入了如此多的资源，他们扩大了导弹项目，并分散了发射能力，即使某些中心和发射器遭到攻击，他们仍能继续发射。

And this is why they have invested so much resources, they expanded the missile program, then they had dispersed their launch capacity, so that even if some centers and launchers have been attacked, they can continue firing.

到目前为止，我们看到伊朗发射的导弹数量减少了，但成功率却提高了。

What we've seen so far is that the number of missiles that Iran launches have decreased, but the success rate has gone up.

他们发射三到四枚导弹，其中大部分都能击中目标。

They launch three or four missiles, and and majority of them are able to reach their targets.

另一个显著的发展是，一架美国F-35战机紧急降落。

Now another striking development was a US f 35 made an emergency landing.

你知道，发生了什么谁说得准呢？

You know, who knows what happened?

我们还没有关于此事的官方信息。

We don't have official information on that.

一些报道称，它被伊朗的火力击中了。

Some of the reporting saying it was hit by Iranian fire.

我的意思是，这看起来也很令人惊讶。

I mean, that's that that that seems surprising as well.

是的，没错。

Well, yes.

我的意思是，随着时间推移，伊朗人一直在学习。

I mean, over time, Iranians have been learning.

他们一直在适应。

They have been adapting.

有可能俄罗斯和中国虽然我们没有任何证据，但可能帮助了伊朗人，或者只是伊朗人运气好。

There's a possibility that the Russians and the Chinese, although we don't have any information, that they might have helped Iranians, or maybe somebody just got lucky in Iran.

但这清楚地表明，尽管美国声称如此，伊朗人并未被击败。

But this clearly shows that the Iranians, despite what The US claims are, have not been defeated.

他们已经承受了二十一天与以色列和美国的全面战争。

They have endured twenty one days of all at war with Israel and The United States.

他们仍在发射导弹。

They're still firing.

而美国总统要求伊朗无条件投降，这一要求已不再现实，因为我们已经看到伊朗人一直在稳步升级他们的战争。

And the demand by The US president that Iranians should do an unconditional surrender that is no longer achievable because we've seen Iranians have been, you know, steadily escalating their war.

我们看到了F-35。

We saw that f 35.

现在我们看到了对迪戈加西亚的袭击。

Now we saw the attack on Diego Garcia.

我们刚刚经历了伊朗向迪莫纳市发射弹道导弹的事件，那里非常靠近迪莫纳核设施。

We just had that incident that Iran launched a ballistic missile at the Dimona City, very close to the Demona nuclear facility.

这些都不是孤立或偶然的袭击。

These are are not isolated and accidental attacks.

它们旨在传递一个信号：伊朗有意愿也有能力进行以眼还眼的打击。

They are meant to send a signal that Iran has the willingness and the capacity to do eye for an eye strikes.

简短问一下，你认为他们能持续下去吗？

Just very quickly, do do you think they can keep this going?

这要看情况。

It depends.

这真的取决于冲突会持续多久。

It really depends on how long the conflict will be going.

我认为他们早有预料。

I think they anticipated this.

他们仍有储备。

They still have reserves.

但再次强调，尽管美国消息来源声称如此，伊朗人并未投降，仍在开火，只是数量有所减少。

But and again, despite what the American sources have been claiming, the Iranians have not surrendered, and they're still firing, although the numbers have decreased.

我不知道能持续多久。

I don't know how long.

我不知道，我没有相关数据，所以不清楚他们能坚持多久，但他们显然一直在为此做准备。

I don't know I don't have the numbers, so I don't know how long they can continue doing this, but they've been certainly been been preparing for this.

这是来自乔治·华盛顿大学的西娜·阿佐迪。

And that was Sina Azodi from George Washington University.

特朗普总统请求协助清理霍尔木兹海峡，这间接承认了美国需要帮助，而这与我们通常对美国军队的认知并不相符，尤其是在特朗普时期，他一再声称自己领导着地球上最强大的军事力量。

President Trump's request for help in clearing the Strait Of Hormuz was an implicit acknowledgment that The US needed help, which is not exactly what we generally associate with the US military, especially under Trump who repeatedly says that he presides over the greatest military force on Earth.

那么，这种情况是如何发生的呢？

So how has this situation come about?

为什么美国人自己无法清理这条海峡？

Why are the Americans unable to clear the strait themselves?

艾玛·萨尔斯伯里博士是外交政策研究协会的非驻地高级研究员，她一直就这个问题撰写文章。

Doctor Emma Salisbury is a nonresident senior fellow in the Foreign Policy Research Institute, and she's been writing about this.

美国的扫雷能力是从什么时候开始减弱的？

When did The US capacity to demine start being weakened?

在冷战的大部分时间里，美国拥有非常出色的扫雷能力。

So The United States had really good minesweeping capability during most of the Cold War.

它从二战、朝鲜战争、越南战争等事件中吸取了大量经验教训。

It learned lots of lessons from World War two, from Korea, Vietnam, and so on.

因此，在冷战的大部分时间里，美国的扫雷能力非常强大。

So its capabilities are really strong throughout most of the Cold War.

冷战结束后，美国和许多其他国家都减少了国防开支，削减了大量能力，扫雷就是其中之一。

Once the Cold War ended, US, along with a lot of other countries, kind of dialed down its defense spending, drew down a lot of its capabilities, and mine sweeping was one of those.

这一能力一直保持稳定，直到2006年，美国才解散了负责统筹所有扫雷能力的扫雷作战指挥部。

So the capability actually stayed steadily until about 2006 and that is when The United States got rid of mine warfare command, which was the centralised point for all of their mine warfare capabilities.

因此，这些能力被分散到美国海军的不同部门，导致它们没有得到集中管理，也没有在预算过程中得到有力支持。

So those capabilities got sort of split up and wiped off into different parts of the US Navy, which meant they weren't being centrally organized and they didn't have a champion in the budget process.

这意味着水雷战能力虽然仍然存在，但已不如之前那么强大。

So that meant mine warfare capabilities still existed, but they just weren't as good as they were prior to that period.

是的。

Right.

所以那是2006年，当时水雷战指挥部被正式撤销并拆分。

So that was 2006 and when this mine war command was was basically abolished and split up.

对。

Yes.

这很可能是一个相当灾难性的决定。

So that turns out to be a pretty disastrous decision probably.

那么，为什么会做出这样的决定呢？

So why was that taken?

当时是以将水雷战能力整合进海军整体体系为由做出的。

So it was taken under the guise of integrating mine warfare across the navy.

但最终，实际情况是这些能力被边缘化了。

But, ultimately, what actually happened was it was marginalised.

这实际上是长期衰退过程的终结，彻底固化了这些能力在那之后无法再重建的事实，因为缺乏集中管理。

It was really the end of a long process of atrophy that has really cemented the fact that those capabilities have not been able to be built up again after that because there isn't that centralization.

但直到现在，这并没有成为一个大问题，因为美国一直依赖其北约盟国的水雷战能力。

But that hasn't been a huge problem up until now because The United States has been relying on mine capabilities of its NATO allies.

因此，英国、德国、荷兰、比利时和斯堪的纳维亚国家的水雷清除等能力都非常出色。

So mine warper capabilities, mine sweeping and so on are really good in UK, Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium, Scandinavian countries.

美国一直认为，如果它要参与一场需要这些能力的战争，那将是与北约盟国并肩作战。

And The US was always thinking if it were going to be fighting a war where it would need those capabilities, it would be alongside NATO allies.

因此，这些盟国可以自带这些能力，而美国则无需为此操心。

So those allies could bring that capability with them, and The US wouldn't really need to have to worry about it.

所以这就是为什么特朗普总统向他的盟国寻求帮助，因为他们依赖盟国具备这种能力。

So that's why president Trump asked for help from his allies because because they were relying on their allies to have this capacity.

正是如此。

That's exactly it.

美国现在正处于一场并非作为北约成员参战的战争中，因此无法期待北约提供相关能力，这就是为什么特朗普总统不得不提出请求。

The US is now in a war where it is not fighting as part of NATO, so there is no expectation of NATO capabilities, being brought to bear, which is why president Trump has had to ask.

因此，这些国家也有权说不，因为这并不是一场重大冲突。

And that's why all of those countries also have the ability to say no because this is not a major conflict.

这是一场美国和以色列之间的冲突。

This is a US and Israeli conflict.

你能给我们解释一下美国目前的能力如何吗？

So can you explain to us what the American capacity is now?

我的意思是，他们显然正在紧急向海峡部署资源。

I mean, you know, they're obviously rushing resources to the Strait.

他们到底有什么？

What have they got?

他们有足够的能力来清理吗？

Have they got enough to clear it?

简短的回答是：没有。

The short answer is no.

他们没有。

They don't.

过去有一种名为‘复仇者级’的扫雷舰。

So there was a class of minesweeping ships called the Avenger class.

其中四艘刚刚被退役，另外四艘部署在日本佐世保。

Four of those have been decommissioned very, very recently, and the other four are based in Japan in Sasebo.

所以目前它们并不在作战区域。

So they are not in theater at the moment.

比这稍新一些的能力体现在濒海战斗舰上，这是一种模块化舰艇，可以配置执行不同任务。

The capability, slightly newer than that, is on the Littoral Combat Ship, which is a modular ship, it can be configured to different missions.

因此，这些舰艇可以搭载扫雷设备。

So there is a mine capability that can be put onto those ships.

从伊朗一方来看，我认为美国人现在正试图摧毁伊朗用来布雷的地点，也就是伊朗用于此目的的陆上基地。

When you look at it from the other side, the Iranian side, I think there are efforts now by the Americans to destroy the places from which the mines would be laid, you know, the the land bases that are used by the Iranians for that.

这会有效吗？

Is that gonna be effective?

我认为这会略微削弱他们的能力，但我认为这不足以阻止他们如果想布雷的话。

I think it will degrade their capability slightly, but I don't think it is going to be enough to stop them from laying mines if they wish to.

布雷可以用像快艇这样小的船只进行。

The mines can be laid from something as small as a speedboat.

你只需要把雷放在船上，开到你想布雷的位置，然后直接扔到船边就行。

You literally just have to put your mine on your ship, speed up to where you want it, and pluck it over the side.

你也可以从直升机上投放水雷。

Also, you can drop them out of helicopters.

你还可以用潜艇来布雷。

You can lay them using submarines.

有太多方法可以做到这一点，因此我认为摧毁伊朗海军的军舰并不会有多大影响。

There are so many methods by which you can do that that I don't think destroying the Iranian navy, the warships, makes much of a difference.

关于水雷的储存，我不清楚有多少已经被摧毁了。

In terms of the mine storage, I don't know how much of that has been destroyed.

我认为伊朗拥有数千枚水雷的库存。

I believe Iran has a stockpile of somewhere in thousands of mines.

关于水雷，有一件事我不太明白，就是重读了所有关于水雷的资料，西方的大多数专家似乎都认为，伊朗人只布设了那数千枚水雷中的一小部分，可能就十几枚，或者几十枚左右。

One thing I don't understand about this is re reading all all the stuff about mines that's out there, most of the experts in the West anyway seem to think that the Iranians have laid very few of those thousands, you know, maybe a dozen or something like that or a few dozen.

那他们为什么只布设了这么少呢？

Why have they laid so few?

在海峡布设水雷是一项极具升级性质的举动。

The mining the strait is a very escalatory step to take.

我认为伊朗人迄今为止只布设了几十枚水雷的原因，是他们想表明自己有能力在海峡布设水雷。

And I think the reason that Iran have only laid maybe a few dozen as of yet is because they are signalling that they are able to lay mines in the strait.

因此，他们仅靠大约十到十二枚水雷，就已经达到了目前想要的效果，并且向外界传递了信号：如果他们愿意，可以随时增加布设数量。

So they have had the effect they want to at this stage with only maybe ten, twelve minutees, and they have signaled that they're to ramp it up if they choose to do so.

这是美国水雷清除能力专家艾玛·萨尔斯伯里博士的观点。

And that's doctor Emma Salisbury, an expert in The US mine sweeping capacity.

您正在收听BBC世界服务频道。

You're listening to the World Service of the BBC.

稍后我们将带来：为什么有人从世界各地赶来，观看全球销量最高的乐队之一BTS的复出演唱会。

Coming up a little later, why some people have traveled from around the world to watch a comeback gig by one of the world's biggest selling bands, BTS.

我实际上是被收养的，作为一名亚裔美国人。

I'm actually adopted, as an Asian American myself.

成长过程中，我在主流媒体上看不到任何和我长相相似的人，真的很艰难；而如今，看到一个和我长相相似的人站在大舞台上，真是太棒了。

Growing up was really tough not seeing anyone on the mainstream media who looked like me, And then now, wow, to have someone on the big stage actually, like, looks like me is so wonderful.

还有一些新闻标题。

And some headlines.

以色列军方表示，一枚伊朗导弹击中了以色列南部靠近一处重要核设施的城镇，造成30多人受伤。

The Israeli military says an Iranian missile has struck a town in Southern Israel near to a key nuclear facility, injuring more than 30 people.

罗伯特·穆勒曾主导调查俄罗斯是否干预了2016年美国总统大选，现已去世。

Robert Mueller, led the investigation into whether Russia interfered in the US twenty sixteen presidential election, has died.

一部被俄罗斯指控为‘同性恋宣传’而禁演的芭蕾舞剧，首次在境外上演。

And a ballet banned in Russia after being described as gay propaganda is being performed for the first time outside the country.

您正在收听《新闻时事》，现在报道的是特朗普第一任期内最具争议的人物之一罗伯特·穆勒的去世，他曾主导调查俄罗斯对2016年大选的干预。

You're listening to NewsHour and to the death now of one of the most controversial figures in president Trump's first term, Robert Mueller, who led that investigation into Russian interference in the twenty sixteen election.

他于81岁高龄去世。

He has died at the age of 81.

再往前追溯一点，这是他在俄罗斯报告发布数月后向美国司法委员会发表的开场陈述的一部分。

And just going back a bit, this was a part of his opening statement to the US judiciary committee months after his Russia report was published.

我和我的团队以这一关键目标开展这项工作：低调、彻底且正直地行事，以确保公众对结果充满信心。

My staff and I carried out this assignment with that critical objective in mind, to work quietly, thoroughly, and with integrity so that the public would have full confidence in the outcome.

事实上，报告并未指出俄罗斯与特朗普竞选团队之间存在串通行为。

Well, in fact, the report did not say that there had been collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign.

但即便如此，特朗普总统仍发布了一条社交媒体信息，表示他很高兴穆勒已去世。

But even so, president Trump has posted a social media message saying, he is glad mister Mueller is dead.

安德鲁·魏斯曼是与罗伯特·穆勒共同参与俄罗斯调查团队的高级成员。

Andrew Weissman was a senior member of the team that worked with Robert Mueller on the Russia inquiry.

首先，我请他评价一下罗伯特·穆勒的一生。

And first of all, I asked for his assessment of the life of Robert Mueller.

他是一位真正的美国英雄。

He was a true American hero.

他出身优渥，却选择将自己的一生奉献给公共服务。

He is somebody who grew up with great privilege and decided to devote his entire life to public service.

他曾是海军陆战队员。

He was a marine.

他曾以多种身份在司法部工作。

He worked for the Department of Justice in numerous capacities.

他确实非常杰出，广为人知的是他不偏不倚、聪明、务实，真正代表了美国最优秀的一面。

He was truly exceptional and was known far and wide as being apolitical, smart, no nonsense, and really the best of America.

我的意思是，他能力出众且不偏政治，这正是他被选中主导这项大规模调查的原因，调查2016年特朗普竞选团队是否与俄罗斯串通。

I mean, all those things about him being highly competent and apolitical is why he was chosen to run this massive inquiry into whether there'd been collusion between the Trump campaign in '16 and and Russia.

而这也正是他最为人所知的地方。

And and that's really what he became best known for.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，你当时也和他一起参与了这项工作。

I mean and you worked with him on that.

是的。

I did.

值得注意的是，俄罗斯干预2016年选举的结论白纸黑字有据可查，并且也由美国参议院两党委员会得出相同结论。

It's worth noting that the conclusion that Russia interfered in the two thousand sixteen election is documented in black and white and was also concluded by a bipartisan committee of the United States Senate.

现任国务卿马尔科·卢比奥在担任参议员并签署该报告时，就已明确表明，俄罗斯干预选举并为唐纳德·特朗普行事这一事实根本无法否认。

The current secretary of state Marco Rubio, when he was a senator and was a signatory to that report, it really can't be denied that Russia interfered in the election and did so on behalf of Donald Trump.

但我认为，真正重要的是要记住，穆勒的遗产远不止于他担任特别检察官之后，而在于他长期以来对国家的奉献。

But it's really important to, I think, to remember that Mueller's legacy really goes to his service to the country long before he became special counsel.

但事实上，穆勒对俄罗斯问题的调查，对大多数人来说，是他职业生涯中最重要的部分，并对美国民主产生了巨大影响。

But the fact is that the Mueller inquiry into into the Russia issue was, you know, for most people, the most important part of his career, and it has had massive consequences for American democracy.

那么，你是否同意这样的结论——所谓的‘没有串通’只是事后的一种说辞？

Now do you agree with the conclusion that's well, was it just spin that came out of it that there was no collusion?

我的意思是，干预确实存在。

I mean, was interference.

关键问题在于，特朗普竞选团队是否与这种干预行为存在串通？

The issue became, was the collusion between the Trump campaign and that interference?

当然。

Absolutely.

所以有两个问题。

So there were two issues.

一个问题是指俄罗斯在做什么，第二个问题是特朗普竞选团队成员是否与之存在共谋。

One issue was the issue of what Russia was doing, and the second issue was whether there was a conspiracy with members of the Trump campaign.

关于这一点，报告得出结论称，证据不足，无法认定存在这样的共谋。

And on that, the report concluded that there was insufficient evidence to conclude that there was such a conspiracy.

调查的第二部分是唐纳德·特朗普是否妨碍了特别检察官的调查。

And the second part of the investigation was whether Donald Trump had obstructed the special counsel investigation.

关于这一点，报告未作明确结论。

And on that, the report demurred.

重要的是要知道，罗伯特·穆勒之所以如此，是因为他认为，在现任总统尚未有机会为自己辩护的情况下就做出结论是不公平的。

And it's important to know that the reason it did was that Robert Mueller thought that it would be unfair to reach a conclusion when the sitting president would not have an opportunity at that point to defend himself.

因此，这是出于对程序公正的考虑。

So it was out of fairness in the process.

你当时在场。

You were there.

我的意思是，正如他们所说，你当时在场。

I mean, as they say, you were in the room.

你觉得这是个错误吗？

Do you think it was a mistake?

我在这本书里写过这件事。

I have written about this in a book.

这不是我会做的决定，但我希望人们明白，罗伯特·穆勒做出这个决定的出发点，是出于对程序公正的深刻尊重。

That's not the decision I would make, but I wanna make sure people understand that where this was coming from, where Robert Mueller made the decision was out of this deep sense of fairness in the process.

就在你开始这次采访之前，我告诉你，唐纳德·特朗普刚刚就此事发表了一项声明，我读给你听了。

Just before you started this interview, I told you that Donald Trump has just made a statement about this, and I read it to you.

所以你几分钟前才第一次听到这个说法。

So you just heard it for the first time a few minutes ago.

但你的看法呢？

But your view?

我认为，更重要的是关注罗伯特·穆勒的一生，他为许多人所代表的意义，以及他树立的榜样，而不是去纠结于一些与穆勒先生一生所体现的尊严相比微不足道的事情。

I think it's important to focus on Robert Mueller's life and what he means to so many people and the example he set and not to focus on something that really is is sort of beneath the sort of the dignity with which Robert Mueller lived his life.

安德鲁·魏斯曼曾与罗伯特·穆勒共同参与俄罗斯调查。

And that was Andrew Weissman who worked with Robert Mueller on the Russia inquiry.

自从澳大利亚率先实施禁止16岁以下青少年使用社交媒体以来，已经过去三个多月了。

It's been over three months now since Australia introduced its world first ban on social media for under sixteens.

就在圣诞节前，年轻的青少年被告知他们将被禁止使用TikTok、Instagram、YouTube和Snapchat等平台。

It was just before Christmas, and young teens were told they were being kicked off the likes of, TikTok, Insta, YouTube, and Snapchat.

这一大胆举措遭到科技公司的批评，却受到全球许多家长的欢迎。

A bold move criticized by tech companies, welcomed by many parents around the world.

那么，三个月过去了，这项措施效果如何？

So, three months on, how is it working?

我们的澳大利亚记者凯蒂·沃森将从悉尼发回这份报道。

Our Australia correspondent, Katie Watson, Watson, has this report from Sydney.

16岁以下的儿童已被禁止使用包括Facebook、Instagram和Snapchat在内的多个网站。

Kids under the age of 16 have been shut out of multiple sites, including Facebook, Instagram, and Snapchat.

这是一次大规模的社会实验。

It's a huge social experiment.

全澳大利亚的孩子们正醒来面对一个全新的世界

Across Australia are waking up to a world

澳大利亚青少年成为了实验对象。

With Australian teens, the guinea pigs.

澳大利亚，当

Australia And when the

立法于12月10日生效时，全世界都在关注这一事件的展开。

legislation kicked in on December 10, the whole world was watching it play out.

如果评分是负二分之三，我们可以选择加上负号

And then if rating is negative two over three, we could choose to put the negative

这项禁令影响了这里超过两百万名青少年。

More than 2,000,000 young sters here were targeted by the ban.

那么三个月过去了，他们的新现实是什么？

So three months on, what's their new reality?

我们前往悉尼PLC学校——位于城市内西区的一所学校——与一些青少年交谈。

We went to PLC Sydney, a school in the city's inner West, to speak to some teens.

我有Instagram。

I have Instagram.

我有TikTok。

I have TikTok.

我有Snapchat。

I have Snapchat.

我没有任何一个账号被封禁。

I wasn't kicked off of any of them.

我知道我们整个年级180人中，只有三个女生受到了影响。

I know of three girls out of my entire year group, which is a 180, that have been impacted.

我的账号都没被封，这有点让人失望。

None of my accounts got banned, which was a bit anticlimactic.

我被踢出了社交媒体。

I got kicked off social media.

我本来希望这样能让我更高效一些。

I was kind of hoping that it would allow me to be more productive.

然而，我发现我只是找到了其他方式

However, I found that I've just found other ways

来拖延。

to procrastinate.

尽管有这些轶事证据表明许多青少年仍在使用这些平台，但政府发布了一些数据，称在禁令实施后的几周内，已有470万个属于16岁以下用户的账户被关闭。

Despite this anecdotal evidence that many teens are still on platforms, the government has released some data, saying that within weeks of the ban starting, 4,700,000 accounts belonging to under sixteens had been closed down.

那么，这是否意味着禁令有效了？

So does that mean it's working?

阿曼达·桑德教授是西悉尼大学青年与韧性研究中心的联合主任。

Professor Amanda Third is co director of the Young and Resilient Research Centre at Western Sydney University.

公众可能不清楚的是，实施禁令分为两个阶段。

What might not be clear to the public is that there are sort of two stages of, implementing the ban.

第一阶段是让平台识别所有申报年龄为16岁的未成年用户账户。

The first has been for platforms to identify all those accounts of underage users who've declared their age to be 16.

第二阶段将在未来六个月内推出，将使用年龄推断技术，根据用户的使用习惯、社交关系和行为模式来识别未成年用户，并将他们从平台上移除。

And the second phase which will roll out in the next six months, is about using age inference technologies to identify which users according to their habits, their connections, their practices which users are underage and they'll then be removed from the platform.

PLC悉尼的校长保罗·伯吉斯承认，要产生真正的影响还需要很长时间。

PLC Sydney's principal Paul Burgess accepts it's going to take a long time to make a real difference.

我认为我们实际上要再过四五年才能看到禁令的真正效果。

I don't actually think we're going to see the real benefits from the ban for about four or five years' time.

真正的转变在于那些现在只有十岁或十一岁的学生，他们的父母会等到他们十五岁左右才给他们买手机。

The real move is for the student who's currently a 10 or 11 year old and the parents not buying a phone for them until they finish maybe when they're 15.

这对像英国这样正在考虑制定类似法律的国家来说，是一个挑战。

And that's the challenge for countries like The UK, looking at adopting laws of their own.

他们不得不依赖公众情绪和有限的实证数据来做决策。

They're having to base their decisions on public sentiment and little hard data.

我是哈丽特·奥尔德。

I'm Harriet Alder.

我今年15岁，正在上中学十一年级。

I'm 15 years old, and I'm in year 11 at school.

哈丽特有两个姐妹，贝娅特丽克斯和塔姆森。

Harriet has two sisters, Beatrix and Tamsen.

她是唯一一个使用社交媒体的。

She's the only one with social media.

他们有亲戚在英国。

They've got cousins in The UK.

那么，他们对面临类似禁令的英国孩子有什么建议呢？

So what advice would they have for British kids facing a ban of their own?

我去年在英国度假时下载了 Snapchat，当时我和我表姐在一起。

I actually got Snapchat England when I was on holiday there, and I was with my cousin when I got it.

所以她建议我把年龄填得大一点。

So she actually recommended putting my age a bit older.

我觉得，尽管当时他们根本不知道这个禁令，但很多人都知道要把年龄填得大很多。

So I think that even though at that point in time they had no idea about this ban, lots of people are aware of, like, putting your age a lot older.

政府希望，至少通过努力让青少年远离社交媒体，能够引发一场对话和文化转变。

The government hopes that by at least trying to keep teens off social media, it's starting a conversation and a cultural shift.

以上报道来自凯蒂·沃森。

And that report from, Katie Watson.

您正在收听英国广播公司世界服务频道。

You're listening to the well service of the BBC.

我们关注的是

We focus on the part of

大多数人不了解的互联网部分。

the Internet that most people don't know about.

它被称为暗网。

It's called the dark web.

在暗网最隐秘的角落里，美国特工正执行任务，寻找并营救遭受虐待的儿童。

Undercover in the furthest corners of the dark web, US special agents are on a mission to locate and rescue children from abuse.

现在行动。

Move in now.

警察。

Police.

来自英国广播公司世界服务频道的《世界秘密》系列节目，《最黑暗的网络》为您呈现他们令人震惊的调查。

From the BBC World Service, World of Secrets, the darkest web follows their shocking investigations.

在 bbc.com 或您收听 BBC 播客的任何平台收听。

Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

现在可在 BBC 世界服务的纪录片中收听。

Available now on the documentary from the BBC World Service.

跟我一起，阿洛克·贾，我将采访顶尖科学家、企业家和宇航员，讲述印度太空革命的非凡故事。

Join me, Alok Jha, as I meet leading scientists, entrepreneurs, and astronauts to tell the extraordinary story of India's space revolution.

随着该国首次载人航天任务临近，压力倍增。

With the country's first human spaceflight mission on the horizon, the pressure is on.

现在就搜索您收听 BBC 播客的平台，收听这部纪录片。

Listen now by searching for the documentary wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

2023 年，一位自称加拿大女王的女子罗曼娜·迪德洛，带领一支房车车队驶入萨斯喀彻温省的里奇蒙镇，并在一所废弃的学校里建立了她的王国。

In the 2023, Romana Didelot, a woman calling herself the queen of Canada, drove into Richmount, Saskatchewan with a fleet of RVs and set up her kingdom in an abandoned school.

于是，全镇居民团结一致，不惜一切代价将这个邪教驱逐出去。

So the town banded together to get the cult out by any means necessary.

我叫蕾切尔·布朗。

My name is Rachel Brown.

在本季《揭开真相》中，我探索了当一个阴谋论出现在你家后院时会发生什么。

And in this season of uncover, I explore what happens when a conspiracy theory lands in your backyard.

加拿大的邪教女王，现已在CBC听播平台及所有播客平台上线。

The cult queen of Canada, available now on CBC listen and everywhere you get your podcasts.

我是来自BBC全球拼图播客的克拉西瓦诺娃·特威格，我们探讨伊朗媒体在战争中的状况。

I'm Krasivanova Twig from the Global Jigsaw Podcast from the BBC, where we explore Iran's media at war.

我们揭开塑造官方叙事并控制媒体的机器的盖子。

We peek under the bonnet of the machinery that shapes official narratives and controls the media.

我们重新回顾了战争初期在国家电视台上播出的动荡时刻。

And we revisit the turbulent first days of the war as they unfolded on national TV.

《全球拼图》通过媒体的视角审视世界。

The Global Gixxual looks at the world through the lens of its media.

您可以在任何收听BBC播客的平台找到我们。

Find us wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

您正在收听《新闻时事》。

And you're listening to NewsHour.

全球最大的男子团体、K-pop巨星BTS在休整四年、完成 mandatory 国防服役后正式回归。

The world's biggest boy band and K pop megastars, BTS, have staged a comeback after taking a four year break between them to do their mandatory national military service.

为了庆祝他们的回归，乐队在韩国首都首尔市中心举办了一场免费演唱会，数十万粉丝前来迎接他们归来。

And the band held a free concert in the heart of the South Korean capital Seoul to mark their return, and hundreds of thousands of fans turned up to welcome them back.

其中一位是我们的记者金杰克。

Amongst them, Jake Kwon, our correspondent.

这

The

首尔当地的媒体将这场回归称为王者归来。

papers here in Seoul dubbed it the return of the kings.

当七名成员身着闪亮服装，从宛如凯旋门般的舞台上现身时，粉丝们等待了近四年的这一刻终于到来。

When the seven men in their shiny costumes burst forth on the stage that looked like the triumphal arch, it was the moment the fans had waited for nearly four years.

这场演唱会吸引了数万名忠实粉丝——被称为‘Army’。

The concert drew tens of thousands of the band's dedicated fans called Army.

许多人从海外远道而来，齐聚首尔的中央光化门广场。

Many of them had come from overseas all the way to Seoul's Central Gwangnamun Square.

我是维罗妮卡。

I'm Veronica.

我是阿曼达。

I'm Amanda.

好的。

Okay.

你们来自哪里？

And where are you from?

我来自德克萨斯。

I'm from Texas.

我来自夏威夷。

I'm from Hawaii.

好的。

Okay.

那你们今天来韩国是为了什么？

So what brings you to Korea today?

防弹少年团。

BTS.

当然。

Of course.

防弹少年团对我们来说意味着一切。

BTS is everything for us.

防弹少年团的魅力在哪里？

What is the appeal of the BTS?

对我来说，看到亚裔在主流媒体中的身影真是太棒了。

For me, it's so wonderful seeing Asian presence in mainstream media.

我本人是亚裔美国人，而且是被收养的。

I'm actually adopted, as an Asian American myself.

小时候，因为主流媒体上看不到和我长相相似的人，日子真的很艰难。

Growing up was really tough not seeing anyone on the mainstream media who looked like me.

而现在，天哪，能在大舞台上看到真正和我长相相似的人，真是太好了。

And then now, wow, to have someone on the big stage actually, like, looks like me is so wonderful.

这个

The

音乐融合了他们最新的歌曲以及像《Dynamite》和《Butter》这样广受欢迎的热门曲目。

music was a mix of their latest tracks and crowd pleasing hits like Dynamite and Butter.

有演唱、有舞蹈、有应援棒，一切你能在K-pop演唱会上期待的元素都有。

There was the singing, the dancing, the light sticks, everything one can hope in a k pop concert.

这是一种难得的荣誉。

This is a rare honor.

上一次首尔开放其公共广场举办K-pop演出，还是十四年前，当时PSY的《江南Style》成为全球现象。

The last time Seoul opened one of its public square for a k pop act, it was fourteen years ago when PSY's Gangnam Style became the worldwide phenomenon.

从那以后，BTS已经超越了仅仅是一个七人乐队的意义。

And since then, BTS has become something bigger than just a seven men in a band.

他们登上了公告牌排行榜榜首，在联合国和白宫发表过演讲，真正成为了韩国软实力成功的象征。

They have reached the top of the billboard chart, spoke at the UN and the White House, and they've really become the face of South Korea's soft power success.

他们的音乐不仅卖出了专辑，更传递了韩国本身的理念。

Their music had not only sold albums, but the idea of Korea itself.

伊穆尔在疫情期间成为粉丝后，从爱尔兰搬到了韩国。

Yimur had moved to Korea from Ireland after she became a fan during the pandemic.

我有很多韩国朋友，我很喜欢了解韩国文化。

I have so many Korean friends, and I love learning about Korean culture.

我正在学习韩语。

I'm studying Korean.

BTS让我第一次意识到韩国是一个如此有趣、有趣的地方。

BTS gave me the first idea that Korea is such a interesting, fun place.

现在我来到

And now that I came

这里生活，确实如此，我真的很喜欢在这里。

to live here, it's so true, and I really love being here.

这种命运的转变，即使是十年前的韩国人也难以想象。

It's a turn of fortune most Koreans couldn't have imagined even ten years ago.

尽管韩国已成为经济强国，但韩国人一直认为自己的文化有些不足。

Though South Korea became an economic powerhouse, its people had always imagined their culture somewhat lacking.

如果韩国人曾经对本国艺术或文化是否逊于西方有任何疑虑，那么今天这些疑虑已经完全消失了。

If there were any doubts in the minds of Korean people that their art or culture is lesser than that of the West, today, it's certainly gone.

该乐队将于下个月开启全球巡演。

The band will follow it up with a world tour starting next month.

预计此次巡演将带来约10亿美元的收入。

It is expected to rake in around $1,000,000,000 in revenue.

但正如我们今天所见，这支乐队对韩国的贡献远不止于金钱。

But as we've seen today, the band's contribution to South Korea goes far beyond money.

而且

And

以上是我们在首尔的记者杰克·权关于BTS的报道，他们是韩国近年来非凡软实力成功的一部分。

that was our Seoul correspondent, Jake Kwon there, on BTS, part of South Korea's extraordinary soft power success in recent years.

您正在收听BBC世界服务。

You're listening to the World Service of the BBC.

这里是新闻时事节目。

This is NewsHour.

对伊朗的袭击已经持续了三周，最新进展中，德黑兰表示其位于纳坦兹的核浓缩设施再次遭到袭击。

Attacks on Iran have been on for three weeks now, and in the latest developments, Tehran says its nuclear enrichment facility at Natanz has been hit again.

伊朗官方新闻机构称，没有发生辐射泄漏。

The official Iranian news agency says there was no radiation leakage.

我们将在几分钟后听到更多关于此事的细节。

We'll hear more details about that in a few minutes.

对纳坦兹的袭击之后，又发生了一次袭击，可能有关，也可能无关。

And the strike on Natanz was followed by another, which may or may not be connected.

一枚伊朗导弹击中了以色列南部城镇迪莫纳，那里是以色列一个关键核设施的所在地。

An Iranian missile hit the southern town of Dimona in Israel, the home of a key Israeli nuclear facility.

《以色列时报》的军事记者埃马纽埃尔·法比安目前位于附近的贝尔谢巴。

The military correspondent for the Times of Israel, Emmanuel Fabian, is in Beersheba, which is close by.

我们大约一小时前与他取得了联系。

We got through to him around an hour ago.

自午夜左右以来，伊朗一直在向迪莫纳地区发射弹道导弹。

So since around midnight, Iran has been launching ballistic missiles towards the Dimona area.