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欢迎收听《成为超人》节目，这里讲述普通人如何训练自己完成非凡壮举，比如跑极远的距离。
Welcome to the Becoming Ultra Show, where everyday people train to do extraordinary things like run really, really far.
我们从2015年就开始建立这个社群，不管你是刚加入还是老听众，都非常感谢你的陪伴。
We have been building a community since 2015 and no matter how long you've been listening, thank you so much for being here.
想了解更多或参与进来，请访问 becomingultra.com。
You can learn more or get involved at becomingultra.com.
我挺有名的。
I am famous.
大家好。
Hey, everybody.
欢迎来到《成为超人》。
Welcome to becoming ultra.
我请到了亚历克斯·拉尔森。
I got Alex Larson.
她是一位住在明尼苏达的注册营养师。
She is a Minnesota based registered dietitian.
今天我们来聊聊补给和营养，可能也会涉及一些耐力运动员经常关心的问题。
We're gonna talk about fueling and nutrition and, maybe some things that are on a lot of endurance athletes' minds.
我们会分享不少故事，因为关于补给失误的经历，尤其是比赛中的，总是特别有意思。
We'll bring a lot of stories into it because there's always good stories on bad fueling, especially during Yes.
迈克肯定深有体会，比如吃不下去、吃了就吐、没力气、时机不对等等。
Of Mike can relate to that, whether it's can't get it down, can't keep it down, low energy, bad timing.
说真的，能聊的话题多得数不清，但这类讨论总是特别有趣。
I mean, there's a million things we can talk about, but these are always fun conversations.
不过跟往常一样，咱们先简单聊聊你，热个身。
But as always, we'll just kinda get to know you to to get it started.
非常感谢你来参加节目，亚历克斯。
So thanks a lot for coming on, Alex.
是的。
Yeah.
能来这儿真的很开心，斯科特。
It's great to be here, Scott.
对。
Yes.
所以你在明尼苏达州的北部地区。
So you're up in Northern Part of Minnesota.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
I am.
对。
Yeah.
我就住在德卢斯南边一点的地方。
I am just South Of Duluth.
所以如果你知道苏必利尔徒步小径和杰科克斯州立公园的话，我离那儿特别近。
So if you're familiar with, like, the Superior Hiking Trail and Jaycox State Park, I'm very close to those locations.
我最喜欢做的事情之一就是待在户外。
And it's one of my favorite things to do is just be outside.
我讲过这个故事无数次了，但那是我们刚开始的时候，现在都已经是第11年了。
So I tell this I've told this story a million times, but early on, so early on with becoming we're on, like, year 11 right now.
有一年，我们办的那场沃伊耶格50英里赛，总共就只有一个跑者参加。
And early on, one of our seasons we did, we only had one runner for this Voyager 50 miler.
那是她第一次跑50英里，她请了陪跑员，也有支援团队。
And it was her first 50 miler, and she had she had a pacer and a crew.
我当时就在旁边拍她，一路跟着拍了一些片段。
And I was just filming the thing, like, her a little bit along the way.
赛道是25英里出去再折返，加起来正好50英里。
And at the turnaround, it's a 25 mile out and back, basically, so that's how you get your 50.
她在最后25英里全程都在赶时间，但每一站检查点，她都刚好在截止前30秒内冲了进去。
She was chasing cutoffs for the whole last 25 miles, and she literally she made it into every cut off within, thirty seconds for the rest of the race.
简直太疯狂了。
Was freaking crazy.
真的太
It was
这真是太不可思议了。
That's just wild.
但那种感觉特别有趣。
The fun.
不过那场比赛真的很棒。
But that race was really cool.
那条山路风景特别美。
The the trails are pretty.
实际的难度远超你想象，尤其是跑那么远之后。
It's way more challenging than you think it'd be for as far
刚开始的时候就挺难的。
as, like, early.
路线特别复杂。
It's very technical.
我每次去山里跑步，其实跑得不快，但一看到树根和石头，就觉得自己根本没那么灵活，根本没法快速跑过这些地方。
Anytime I go out running in the trails and I'm not a very fast runner by any means, but the tree roots and the rocks, and I just think, oh, I'm not coordinated enough to run really fast through these.
我总是很佩服那些能快速跑完这些山路的超马跑者。
I'm just always amazed by ultramarunners that can get through those trails pretty quick.
是啊，太疯狂了。
Oh, it's wild.
他们有一段路特别特别陡。
And they had this one section.
我记得大概是三十五到四十公里左右吧，具体数字有点记不清了。
I wanna say it was like around about 35 or 40.
你得一边爬坡一边小跑着穿过那些高压线底下。
I can't remember exactly, but you you kinda like hike, jog under the these power lines.
那段路简直要命。
And it is brutal.
上来就是垂直爬升六七十英尺，接着又直接下坡好几英里。
It's like just straight up for eight 60 to 80 feet and straight down for a few miles.
最要命的是，那是沿途少有的完全没遮挡、直晒太阳的地方。
And it was just brutal because it's like the one of the few spots where you're completely exposed to the sun out there.
那里真是惨不忍睹。
And it was just a lot of carnage out there.
但我还挺爱看这惨状的。
I I did enjoy watching the carnage.
挺有意思的。
It was fun.
是的。
Yeah.
你以前是做什么的？
What what what what's your background?
你是在那儿长大的吗？
Like, did you grow up up there?
对。
Yeah.
我现在和丈夫还有三个孩子住在离我父母大概九分钟车程的地方。
I I live now with my husband and three kids about nine minutes away from my parents.
所以我基本上就待在老家。
So I'm pretty much in my hometown.
我后来进入营养领域，是因为我父母都在医疗行业，我当时想，哎，我就去当医院的营养师吧，结果呢，这计划太天真了——我从来没真正在临床当过营养师，现在反而能跟运动员打交道。
And I got into, like, nutrition because my parents were in the health care field, and I thought, oh, I'll work in a hospital as a dietitian, and jokes on me, like that was a silly plan because I've never actually worked as a clinical dietitian, and now I get to work with athletes.
大概2014年我参加了威斯康星铁人三项，那时候我才真正感受到自己的使命：把对耐力运动的热爱和营养专长结合起来。
Because about 2014 is when I did Ironman Wisconsin, and that's where I really kind of felt my calling of connecting both my love for endurance sports and my expertise in nutrition.
现在我拥有了世界上最好的工作，能跟运动员一起工作，帮他们实现目标。
And now I get to have the best job in the world and work with athletes and help them.
我常跟他们说：你告诉我你想走多远，我来帮你找到感觉。
I I tell them, was like, do you tell me how far you want to go and I will help you feel for it?
没错。
That's Yeah.
太棒了。
That's awesome.
这通常就是我对他们说的话。
Typically what I say to them.
你在铁人三项比赛中有没有经历过那种顿悟的时刻，还是说只是……
Did you have like a come to Jesus moment during your your your Ironman or was it just I
其实那场比赛里有好几次这样的时刻。
mean, there's a few during that race.
通常在骑车到60到70英里左右的时候，我会告诉我的运动员：你肯定会遇到一段低谷期，特别黑暗。
Usually around like mile 60 or 70 of the bike is when I tell my athletes, I'm like, you're gonna have a little bit of a a low dark spot somewhere in in the bike.
我确实也经历过一次，当时就觉得，这真是我参加过最长的一场比赛。
And I definitely had one of those where I'm just like, this is the longest race ever.
而在威斯康星州的铁人三项，跑步部分是两圈往返。
And then that second half of I in Wisconsin, it's a two loop run.
当你跑到跑步段的半程时，就能听到终点线那边的欢呼声。
And so when you get to the halfway point of the run, you can hear the finish line.
你能听见人们冲过终点通道的喧闹，但你必须右转，再绕回第二圈。
You can hear, you know, people going down that finishing chute, but you have to take a take a right turn and head back around for the second loop.
所以这一段特别煎熬。
And so that that part's a little brutal.
然后呢，说实话，我速度也不快，天就那么黑下来了，到了晚上。
And then when, you know, for me, again, I wasn't super fast, so it definitely got dark out into the evening.
那时候我就想，算了，反正就剩最后这点了，一定要冲到终点。
So that point, was like, oh, I just gotta I just gotta finish this race.
我必须完成这场比赛。
I gotta be done.
我真的太累了。
I'm tired.
这听起来真厉害。
Oh, that's so cool.
对啊。
Yeah.
我带过不少铁人三项运动员。
I've had I've I've coached a good bit of triathletes.
尤其是新手，他们出去就是为了看看能不能在规定时间内完成全程。
And, you know, especially first timers, you're going out there to see if you can cover the distance and time allotted.
对大多数人来说，这确实是首要目标，又不至于把自己累垮。
That's really goal number one for most people without killing themselves.
对。
Yeah.
我明白你的意思。
I I get that.
挺有意思的。
It's kinda cool.
你小时候有参加过什么传统运动吗？
Did you go out playing any, like, traditional sports?
你小时候是跑步的吗？还是干别的？
Were you a runner growing up, or what'd you do?
我练过田径。
I did some track.
那时候我主要是短跑，也踢过足球。
I was more of a sprinter back then, and I did soccer.
我主要的运动是骑马和参加马术表演。
My main sport was more of, like, horseback riding, horse showing.
那几乎成了我全部的身份认同。
It was, like, my entire identity.
上大学后我就不再练了。
And then I stopped doing that in college.
后来父母不再出钱，我也没钱继续了。
Kinda ran out of money once my parents stopped funding that sport.
于是我就开始游泳，一转眼就去练铁人三项了，那时候我在威斯康星。
And so I started swimming, and next thing you know, was doing triathlons, and I'm in Wisconsin.
现在有了三个孩子，我主要就骑自行车，尤其是玩砾石路骑行。
And now that I've got those three kids, I'm just focusing on the bike currently with some gravel riding.
这种运动最近几年发展特别快，我偶尔还是会跑跑步，就当换个口味、图个开心。
That's kind of a sport that's been growing pretty quickly over the past few years, and I'm still doing some running here and there just for variety and fun.
秋天我可能会去参加一次越野跑，毕竟入乡随俗嘛，你住这儿，树叶正红得好看呢。
I'll probably maybe do a trail race in the fall because when in Rome, you know, you live up here and the leaves are peak.
是啊，没错。
It's it's yeah.
所以现在我平时就喜欢搞搞这些。
So that's that's typically what I like to dabble in these days.
哦，这挺酷的。
Oh, that's cool.
你孩子多大了？
How old were your kids?
九岁、六岁，还有一个快三岁。
Nine, six, and almost three.
最小的就是这个。
That's the youngest one.
对，是这样。
Oh, yeah.
你这会儿真是忙得不可开交啊。
You're kinda in the weeds.
你总是
You're always
摆脱了混乱。
out of the weeds.
我算是从一线脱身了，但还是陷在一团糟里，比如
I'm I'm out of the trenches, but I'm in the weeds still with like
各种活动。
Activity.
就是一团乱。
Just the chaos.
因为老大老二都是男孩，简直像野孩子一样。
Because the older two are boys, and they're just feral.
我每天跟他们说，我真的不想带他们去急诊室。
Like, they just you know, what I tell them every day, like, I just don't wanna go to the ER.
你们能不能别闹了，别把自己弄伤到非得去医院的地步？真是笑死人了。
Can you guys just hold it together and not not injure yourself to the point where we need to go It's so funny, man.
急诊室。
The ER.
对，我有侄女，但我邻居家有男孩。
You know, I I have nieces, but, like, my neighbors have boys.
我表弟现在带着他儿子们在这儿。
My cousin is here with his boys right now.
家里到处都是男孩。
Like we have boys in the family all over the place.
我好多朋友家里都是男孩。
And so many of my friends just have boys.
真是搞不懂怎么回事。
It's just a I don't know what the deal is.
今年夏天我们在弗里图拉办了一个青少年跑步项目。
But we put this running youth running program on in the summer here in Fruta.
今天早上我们过去的时候，看到那边有个垒球场的防护网，你知道吧。
And this morning, we go out there and there's like a there's a backstop for like a t ball field, you know.
我们在足球场跑步。
We go running the in the soccer fields.
我到的时候，那里的男孩全在爬那个东西，那玩意儿特别晃悠，看着就不太结实。
And before I get there, like, every boy that's there is climbing on this thing and it's janky and like swaying.
女孩们则都在底下聊天。
And the girls are just down at the bottom just talking.
她们一点兴趣都没有。
They have zero.
对。
Yeah.
他们都说，我们可不干那事。
They're like, we're not doing that.
我们这些带儿子的妈妈，心里真不是滋味。
Us boy moms, we are not okay.
真的，多关心关心身边带儿子的朋友，因为我们真的挺不容易的。
Like, just, like, check-in check-in with your boy mom friends because we're we're struggling.
哦，我超喜欢这个。
Oh, I love it.
你知道吗，关于营养和耐力，能讲的东西实在太多了。
You know, so there's so much when it comes to nutrition and and endurance that you can cover.
我在这档播客里已经说过无数次了：如果这真是门精确的科学，那我们所有教练早就给运动员们配好了每场比赛的完美方案。
And and the comment that I've made a million times on this podcast is, like, if if if it was a perfect science, then all of us coaches would just give our athletes the exact formula for whatever race they're doing.
但遗憾的是，对每个人来说，这根本不是精确的，而是很模糊的。
But, unfortunately, for everybody, it's not an exact it's unclosed.
在为比赛安排能量补给时，要考虑的因素实在太多了。
And there's just so many variables that you're taking into account when you're dealing with fueling for events and stuff.
但我觉得，甚至在谈比赛补给之前，日常训练中的饮食摄入有多重要，就有一些基本准则值得重视。
But I think even before we get to the fueling for events, there's just some some basic guidelines on in training, how important your intake, your nutrition is on a day to day basis.
有哪些事情是大家常常忽略的？对你来说可能显而易见，因为你天天都在做，但对那些每周跑三四十甚至五十英里、每天工作八小时、还要照顾家庭的人来说，这些细节真的很容易被压垮。
What are some things that people miss that are maybe obvious to you because you do it every day, but but maybe not to the person who's getting, you know, thirty, forty, 50 mile weeks in, working eight hours a day, has a family, like, all this stuff adds up.
所以你得学会挑重点，那对于普通人来说，日常饮食该从哪里开始改进呢？
So you kind of gotta pick your battles, but where's good place to start for, like, day to day nutrition for people?
是的。
Yeah.
这确实是一门科学，但更像是一门艺术。
It certainly is a science, but it's also very much an art.
所以我喜欢介入来说，好吧。
And that's where I like to kinda come in and say, okay.
这绝对是因人而异的，因为支持越野跑者训练乃至比赛日的细节因素实在太多了。
It's it's an individualized things for sure because there's so many different little factors that can go into supporting an ultramarunner with their training and then ultimately on race day.
所以我通常把它们分成两类。
So I kind of put things into two different buckets.
第一类是训练期间的营养补充。
One is the first bucket is how you're fueling your workouts itself.
你可能会听说一些顶尖选手每小时摄入120克碳水化合物，摄入量大得惊人。
You hear about some of these higher elite runners going 120 grams of carb per hour and doing all these mass amounts of carbs.
虽然这类高摄入量确实对提升表现有明显好处，但普通跑者根本没法做到这么高的摄入量。
While that certainly, is starting to show it's very beneficial for performance, it's not really feasible for the everyday runner to be taking in that much fuel.
所以我总是建议大家，别光看别人怎么做。
So I always tell people, don't listen to what everyone else is doing.
首先得关注自己最能适应的、最喜欢的、吃下去最舒服的方式，然后随着训练和跑步的深入，再慢慢调整和改进。
Make sure you're focusing on first and foremost what you tolerate best, what you like, what sits well with you, and you can kind of build and grow as your training and running progresses.
所以，确保在训练前后做好补给，这点非常重要。
So making sure you're fueling around those workouts is definitely very important.
我觉得很多人都会低估自己实际需要的能量。
I think a lot of people underestimate how much fuel they actually need.
我跟一些超马跑者聊过。
I've talked to some ultrarunners.
最近，我们的一位新客户刚跑完一场五十公里，她每小时只摄入大约三十到四十克碳水化合物。
Just recently, one of our newest clients, she did a 50 k recently and only did about 30 to 40 grams of carb per hour.
我跟她说，我觉得这比之前那次好多了，之前那次我几乎没怎么喝水。
And she's and I was like, well, that's like, I felt a lot better than my previous one where I just hardly took any water.
所以，我们肯定得帮她把摄入量提上去，至少每小时六十克碳水化合物。
And so we're we're definitely working on increasing that up for sure at least 60 grams of carb per hour.
但训练的时候就得这么做。
But we gotta do that in training.
别指望比赛当天一下子从零跳到一百。
You can't just go on race day and go zero to 100.
训练全程都得反复练习这一点。
You have to practice that all throughout your training.
这不仅帮你适应肠胃负担，还能让你练完之后一整天都不至于陷入能量枯竭的状态。
Not only does that help you in terms of gut tolerance, but it also the rest of the day after you get done with that workout, you're not in this massive energy hole is how I describe that.
有些跑者跑完长距离后感觉整个人被掏空，非得午睡，下午还得靠额外咖啡因撑着过完一天。
For runners that feel absolutely trash after their long run, they have to nap, to rely on an extra source of caffeine in the afternoon to get through their day.
这说明我们得重新审视你训练时的营养摄入，别等到练完才拼命补救——那可太难了，因为跑完往往还得上班、带孩子、处理一堆琐事，根本没时间好好安排之后的饮食。
That's a sign to me that we need to look at how are you feeling around your workout so that you don't have to try and play catch up the rest of the day, which can be really tough because usually once we finish that run, we have a job, we have kids, we have errands list, a to do list that's a mile long, and you might not have the time to actually truly dedicate enough to how you're fueling the rest of the day.
是的。
Yeah.
咱们不妨举个虚构的小案例来看看。
Let's take, like, just a little case a little a little fake case study here.
假设有人存在体重管理方面的问题。
So you have somebody that weight management is an issue.
不过他们身体是健康的。
They're they're they're healthy.
而且他们跑步量很大。
They're running a lot.
假设他们把长距离跑安排在周五早上进行。
And let's say they're getting their long runs in on a on a Friday morning.
比如跑十二到十五英里，你知道，早上起来的时候。
And twelve, fifteen miles, you know, you wake up.
从营养角度来看，对于一场大概需要两到三个小时的跑步，目标应该是什么？
What would be the goal from a a nutrition standpoint on your on your run that's gonna take probably two to three hours?
什么样的感觉策略比较好？
What would it be a good feeling strategy?
然后，跑完步之后大家该怎么做，才能避免在接下来的一天里突然感到体力不支？
And then what are people doing after the run so they aren't hitting that wall throughout the rest of the day?
你知道的。
You know?
对。
Yeah.
如果他们要出去跑十几二十公里，给我个配速吧。
So if they are gonna go out and run for I mean, if they're doing 12 to 15 miles, give me a pace.
这么长的距离，他们得跑多久？
Like, how long are they gonna be out there for that long?
我住山里，所以我们就说大概三个小时吧。
I live in the mountains here, so we'll say we'll call it, like, three hours.
没错。
So Sure.
你知道的。
You know?
明白了。
Okay.
十二公里
Twelve and
十二个小时。
twelve hours.
在山里，对我们来说，可能
In the mountains, so, like, for for us, it might
会有点不一样。
be a little bit different.
所以从这个角度来说，如果你打算早上起来跑三小时，我首先会建议你补水，再吃点碳水。
So for that standpoint, if you're waking up, you're planning on going for a three hour run, I would first and foremost start hydration and try and get some carbs in.
因为你整晚都没吃东西，现在得给身体补充点新能量，好让训练顺利开始。
Because you obviously fasted all night long, now we gotta get some fresh energy in you, to kick start that workout.
我真不推荐空腹锻炼。
Definitely, I'm not a fan of the fasted workouts.
那简直会是一场噩梦。
I think that can be just a nightmare.
这简直就是在主动让训练变成一场折磨。
It's like you're just asking to have your workouts be a suffer fest.
一定要吃点新鲜的补给，这样能让你感觉更好，训练表现也更出色。
Definitely get some fresh fuel in you that is going to just set you up to feel better and have a better performance in that workout itself.
对于三小时左右的训练，我建议从头半小时就开始补充能量。
For a three ish hour workout, I would start fueling right in like that first half an hour.
我特别支持耐力运动员在训练早期就开始补充能量。
I'm a big fan with my endurance athletes where we start fueling pretty early.
我们不会等到训练进行四十五分钟、六十分钟才开始补充，尽管有人说那时候才需要能量。
We're not waiting forty five minutes, sixty minutes into the workout to start fueling, even though they say, you know, you don't start to need need fuel at that point.
我的很多运动员一进入状态，就很容易忽略营养摄入。
For a lot of my athletes, they get in the zone and they get behind on nutrition really easily.
所以如果我们早点开始补充，提前做好营养储备，就不大可能在训练中撞墙或能量耗尽。
So if we can start early and get ahead of their nutrition, we're gonna be much less likely to hit that wall, or bonk during that workout.
如果他们训练时间更长，我们也在培养良好的节奏和计划，那我建议在二十到三十分钟的时候就开始补充能量，比如能量胶。
So usually, if they're out there a little bit longer and we're practicing having a good routine and schedule, I would say, like, in that twenty, thirty minute mark, to start taking in some fuel, whether that's gels.
我特别推荐超马选手这么做，因为你本来就要背着水袋，干脆把碳水和电解质直接混进饮料里。
I'm a huge fan for ultramarathon since you're already usually carrying a hydration vest, putting some carbs and electrolytes in with your fluids.
反正你得随身带着液体，不如顺便把碳水也加进去。
You're having to carry the fluids on you.
这样就能少带几包能量胶、能量棒之类的东西，减轻负担。
You might as well put some carbs in there, and then that's just less gels and chews and and other things that you have to carry.
三小时的训练，具体补多少碳水得看运动员平时的习惯，但至少每小时60克是底线。
So for a three hour workout, depending on what the athlete is typically used to consuming, For sure, least 60 grams of carb an hour.
如果是个经验丰富的跑者，肠胃耐受性也不错，那我建议可以试试更高一点。
If they're a pretty well seasoned runner, good gut tolerance, I'd say, hey.
不妨试试每小时70、80，甚至90克，看看身体反应怎么样。
Let's push the envelope and do seventy, eighty, maybe even 90 and see how that feels for them.
我会慢慢帮他们提升摄入量，确保比赛前肠胃已经适应了，万一需要多补也能扛得住。
I like to kinda build that up for them and always have a good gut tolerance going into the race in case they need to take more.
尤其是高海拔环境下，身体消耗的碳水会比平地更多，再加上补水的因素，更得注意。
And especially for if they're at elevation, they're gonna be using more carbs as energy than someone that's at sea level, factoring in hydration as well.
大多数运动员平均每小时会流失大约一升汗水，当然也有特别容易出汗的。
Most on average athletes will lose around a liter of sweat an hour, though there's certainly some really hot heavy sweaters.
我目前带的一个铁人三项运动员就是个例子。
I've got a triathlete right now.
他个子很高，但每小时能出两升以上的汗。
I mean, he's a very tall triathlete, but he loses over two liters an hour.
没错。
Yeah.
所以你得清楚自己出汗有多厉害，确保随身带够了水分，尤其是在现在这个炎热的夏季。
And so you need to be a little aware of what your sweat loss is and making sure you're carrying enough fluids on you as well, especially as we are in these warm summer months.
如果你在干燥的山区，那脱水的风险也会更高。
And if you're up in the dry air of the mountains, that also can be a pretty big factor in dehydrating you as well.
这些就是我通常建议先关注的要点。
So those are the things I would probably start with.
等你训练结束，接下来就该全力恢复了。
And then as soon as you get done with that workout, it's all about recovery.
我发现运动员们往往不够重视恢复阶段。
It I do find with athletes, they don't prior prioritize the recovery as much as they should.
每到周末跑完长距离训练，一回家就被孩子和一堆待办事项淹没，偶尔就会忘了及时补充能量，大概两小时后突然感觉特别糟糕。
As someone who has gotten done with my long workouts on the weekends, and I get home and I'm bombarded by my kids and all the to do list I I have every once in a while, forgotten to refuel, and then about two hours after the workout, I all of a sudden just feel terrible.
我能感觉到血糖在下降。
I can feel like my blood sugar drop.
胃里翻腾，差点想吐，心里一惊：糟了。
I feel pretty almost sick to my stomach, and I go, oh, no.
我光顾着休息，没按计划及时补充营养。
I fried and didn't refuel as how I had planned on it.
在训练结束后的三十到六十分钟内，如果能及时摄入一些碳水化合物、蛋白质和水分，这就是恢复期最理想的组合。
And so in that kind of thirty, forty five minute, sixty minute window, somewhere in there, if you can get some carbs and protein in and hydration, that's kind of that magic combination of fuel to support your body in that recovery.
运动结束后，身体特别容易吸收养分，开始重新补充肌糖原。
Our body is very primed after exercise to start reloading those glycogen stores.
这正是身体储存碳水、修复和重建肌肉的方式。
That's our body's way of storing carbohydrates, and starting to rebuild and repair those muscles.
正是在这一阶段，身体开始适应，运动员才会变得更健壮、训练更高效，最终跑得更快，打破个人最好成绩。
That's where we get those adaptations in and where you start to see athletes getting more fit, getting more efficient at their training, and ultimately getting faster and seeing PRs in their race.
没错。
Yeah.
当然了。
Heck yeah.
对的。
Yeah.
我们一直强调高强度训练后的营养补充，跑三个小时当然属于这一类。
We've been preaching the the replenishments after intense workouts, and, of course, running for three hours would would fall under that.
对你来说，
Also for you
那些在健身房进行力量训练的人，
guys that
在训练后三十到四十五分钟内及时补充能量，身体会特别渴望恢复糖原，而这正是
are doing doing tough workouts in the in the weight room in the gym, like, fueling up in that thirty, forty five minute window afterwards, you're you're really craving the the glycogen replenishment, which is
是的。
Yeah.
能帮你更好地恢复，
Gonna help you recover for
下次
the next
今天早上我刚跟我的学员说过。
told my client this morning.
我说，你得在力量训练时，比你想象中吃得更多一点。
I said, I need you to feel a little bit more than you think for those strength workouts.
因为你们这些有氧爱好者，总是不停地运动，我经常听他们说。
Because when you're a cardio junkie, you're just doing this continuous exercise, and and I hear from them all the time.
力量训练的时候，我中间会休息几组。
Well, with weightlifting, like, I take breaks in between my sets.
我明白你的意思，但这可是高度依赖糖原的运动，我想让你在这次训练里发挥出最大的力量和爆发力。
I'm like, I get that, but it's a very glycogen dependent exercise, and I want you to get the most power and strength out of that workout.
所以你真得多吃点碳水来支持这一点。
And so you really need to lean into the carbs for that.
对，没错。
Yeah.
我很喜欢这一点。
I love that.
确实如此。
Yeah.
挺有意思的是，很多顶尖运动员的碳水摄入量其实很高。
It's kinda interesting that the the higher carb intake for a lot of the elite athletes out there.
你知道，当你深入某个运动领域，就会开始研究各种资料，然后发现，哦，某个运动员每小时摄入了五百卡路里的碳水，差不多就是九到十一克碳水每小时。
I think when, you know, you get into a sport, you're going into your rabbit holes and you're researching all the stuff and you see, like, oh, this athlete was taking in five hundred five hundred calories of carbs, which is, like, almost, you know, what, 90 to a 110 grams of of carb per hour.
但你得想想，那些顶级跑者，尤其是我们这个播客经常聊跑步，他们实际消耗的能量，跟普通跑者完全不是一个量级，你得清楚自己该在什么位置。
But you gotta think about, like, the output that the high high level runners, especially since we talk about running a lot on this podcast, the amount of work that they're doing compared to, like, an average runner and just kinda knowing where you need to kinda fall.
这其实有点像在调整跑者的步频。
And it's, it's it's almost like it's almost like fixing, turnover in runners.
如果我们想提高步频，但目前的水平远低于目标，那就不该指望在一两周内直接冲到标准线。
If we're trying to get turnover higher and and and the rate is way lower than where it needs to be, we're not trying to ramp all the way up to the to the to the standard over a week or two.
应该慢慢把这些指标提上去。
Like, wanna slowly improve those things.
饮食方面其实也是一样，所以我觉得在长距离训练时提前试吃、看看肠胃能承受多少特别重要。就像你说的，这真是一门艺术，得慢慢摸索出最适合自己的方式。
And I think with intake, it kinda works like that as well, and that's why I think one of the reasons it's important to practice this stuff when you go in your long efforts and see what your stomach can handle, and it's it's all like you said, it's definitely an art, man, just to figure figure
搞清楚自己到底该吃多少。
out what you're doing.
尤其是超马这类比赛，动不动就八小时、十二小时，甚至好几天，到了后期，只要能吃进去热量就是好事。当然，如果能每小时保持七十到九十克碳水最好，但吃久了人真的会腻。
Well, and especially for ultras things where you're out there for eight, twelve, twenty four, something multi day events, you know, it gets to a point where any calorie is a good calorie where, yeah, like, it'd be great if you can maintain seventy, eighty, 90 grams a carb per hour, but you just get flavor fatigue at that point.
所以你得考虑换换口味，适当加点咸味的食物。
So then you do have to think about, okay, changing it up, having some savory things in there.
我本人没怎么跑过超马，但一包泡面绝对是我的最爱。
I I haven't done much like ultras, but a cup of noodles is totally my jam.
说到咸味碳水，比赛补给站里，泡面给我来一打都不嫌多。
Like, when it comes to like salty carbs, like, give give me all the cup of noodles in at the stations.
我平时就是特别想吃这些东西。
Like, that's that's the stuff that I'm reaching for.
然后在补给站之间，就多靠那些甜味的能量补给品撑着。
And then using more of that those sweet sports fuels, you know, between aid stations at that point.
对。
Yeah.
一旦跑过五十公里，如果你还不想吃正经饭，那你就真不一般了。
Well, you know, once you get over 50 k, like, you're you're you're you're in a different breed if you're not craving real food out there.
毕竟你消耗的热量实在太大了。
I mean, you're just burning so many calories with with the workload.
我经常跟人说，如果你中途觉得该吃顿饭了，那说明你早就摄入不足了。
I tell people all the time, if you feel like you need a meal at some point, then you're you're way underfueled already.
赶紧补充点热量，稍微放慢点节奏，反而能恢复得更好，这点很重要。
So just go get some calories and slow it down for a little while and you'll come back stronger than you were, which is important.
对。
Yeah.
你刚才提到出汗量的问题，对于长期跑步的人来说，一般都清楚什么适合自己，尤其是夏天这里天气特别热。
You mentioned something about sweat rate a second ago and like, you know, for athletes who've doing this for for a long time, you kinda know what works and like temperature definitely like out here it gets pretty hot in the summer.
现在外面都快到35度了。
Like right now it's like 95 out.
我要是出去跑一小时左右，大概得喝上一升半到两升水，才能把流失的水分补回来。
And if I go for a run a little bit, like, I know, for about an hour out there, I need about a liter and a half or two to to replenish everything.
但如果有人不知道自己具体出汗量，有什么判断标准吗？
But what are some good markers if if people don't know their exact sweat rate?
或者有什么实用的方法或技巧，能帮大家搞清楚自己在运动时到底该喝多少水？
Or what are some good tools that people can use or or ideas that they can use to find out how much fluid they actually do need on their efforts?
其实很简单，你只需要一台家用体重秤就够了。
Basically, all you need is a scale to weigh yourself at home.
做法是：运动前先吃好喝好，然后脱掉衣服，称体重，记下数字，再穿好衣服。
So what you would do is pre workout fuel, hydration, take all of that before you head on your run, get undressed, weigh yourself, write that number down, get dressed again.
出门前带上定量的水，根据需要随时喝就行。
You're gonna take a pre measured amount of fluids out with you, and you'll drink as needed.
你的锻炼最好持续至少一小时，但别太长，免得中途得去上厕所。
You want your workout to be at least an hour long, but not so long that you would have to go to the bathroom.
锻炼完回来后，记下你喝了多少水，然后脱掉衣服再称一次体重，把数字记下来。
And then when you get back from that workout, you're gonna measure how much fluids you drink, and then weigh yourself again unclothed and write down that number.
网上有很多计算工具。
And there's calculators out there.
我博客上就有一个，你只要输入锻炼前后的体重，算出减了多少公斤，再结合你喝掉的水量，就能算出每小时的排汗量。
I have one on my blog where you would just enter in your post weight, your pre weight, figure out how much weight you lost, factor in how much you consumed for fluids, and then that's where you can calculate your sweat rate per hour.
这个测试在家就能做。
And you can do this test at home.
不用花钱。
It's free.
操作也很简单。
It's easy.
你可以在凉快的时候做一次，再在炎热的时候做一次，看看差别。
You can figure out what your sweat rate is in cooler temps, what is it in hotter temps.
这样你比赛的时候就能大致清楚每小时会流失多少水分。
And that way, you can go into your race having a loose idea of what you're going to be losing for fluids each and every hour.
当然，还要考虑到一天中不同时段气温变化带来的影响，确保自己不会脱水太严重。
And obviously, like how that fluctuates from the cooler times of the day to the hotter times of the day, and making sure you're preventing yourself from getting too dehydrated.
研究表明，如果体液流失超过体重的2%，你的运动表现就会开始下降。
The research shows that if you lose more than 2% of your body weight in fluids, you're going to start to see performance decline.
不过对于超马跑者来说，我们见过他们流失3%到4%的体重，表现依然很好，大概是因为他们身体已经适应了这种轻微脱水的状态。
However, with ultrarunners, we have seen them lose three to 4% and still be able to perform really well just because they're so well conditioned to, I guess, run-in in a little bit of that dehydrated state.
不过，这确实是个很容易让你在比赛中断档的问题，而且也会大大增加你出现肠胃不适或其他状况的风险。
But still, it's one of those things where it can take you out of your race pretty quickly and it also can increase your risk for GI issues and things going south there really easily.
对。
Yeah.
不是的。
No.
那挺好的。
That's good.
没错。
That's yeah.
我们得在节目笔记里把那个计算器链接上，你刚才说是在你的网站或者博客上，对吧？
We'll have to link that up in the in the show notes for the calculator if it's on your it's on your website or blog, you said?
在我的博客上。
It's on my it's on my blog.
是的。
Yeah.
我很喜欢这个。
I love that.
对。
Yeah.
我父亲以前是佛罗里达的一名橄榄球教练。
My dad was a football coach in Florida.
他执教后期，球队会在赛季开始前安排两天集训，每次训练前后都会称体重，确保球员体重下降不会太多——毕竟在那儿，有些球员体型庞大，两小时训练下来能掉不少水分。
And at the end of his career, he they would do, like, their two days to get ready for the season, and and they would weigh pre and post every practice just to make sure they weren't losing more than, like because down there, man, you got some big boys that are losing a significant amount of their their body weight in in a two hour workout.
所以他会确保他们在第二次训练前能恢复过来，
So he'd make sure they could get back up before their their second effort just to
确保很多比赛里，赛前都会称体重，这样如果选手进了医疗帐篷，就能大概判断出情况。
make sure that a lot of races where they all take a pre race weight so that if they end up in the med tent, they can kinda figure out, like, okay.
看看他们脱水到什么程度。
How dehydrated are they kind of situation?
对。
Yeah.
我也经历过那种情况。
I did one of those.
有一次我参加半程铁人三项，当时气温有一百度，我还得在医疗帐篷里待着。
I did a med tent one time for a half Ironman when it was, like, a 100 out.
那太遭罪了。
That sucks.
对。
Yeah.
我的血压大概只有90/60。
My blood pressure is like 90 over 60.
我当时就想
I was like
哦，那真是帮大忙了。
Oh, that's that's so good.
给你补点水，小伙子。
Hydrate you up a little bit, boy.
对。
Yeah.
好。
Alright.
我这儿有几个比较快的问题。
I got some good I got some kinda quick hitters here.
所以，如果有人来找你，说他们感觉状态低迷、疲惫，或者对训练感到沮丧，你会先从哪些补给方面的问题入手检查？
So when somebody comes to you feeling kinda flat or tired or frustrated with their training, what are some of the first fueling issues you'd look at?
我会先看看他们在训练时的身体感受，同时也会关注他们日常的饮食情况。
I'd look at how they're feeling on the workout, but then I'd also look at their day to day nutrition.
他们一天三餐是怎么安排的？
How are they eating throughout the day?
我见到最多的情况是，他们早餐吃得很少。
The number one thing that I see is they are not eating much of a breakfast.
他们没把早餐当回事，尤其是那些早上要锻炼的人。
They're not prioritizing their breakfast, especially if they're someone that works out in the morning.
早餐的时候，我推荐摄入三十到四十克的蛋白质。
At breakfast, I like to see thirty, forty grams of protein.
我希望他们早上就能先把蛋白质补上。
I like them to get a head start on protein in the morning.
我觉得这真的有助于调节一整天的食欲和精力水平。
I think it really helps regulate the appetite and their energy levels throughout the rest of the day.
碳水化合物的摄入量我建议在五十到一百克之间，具体要看运动员的情况。
I like to see 50 to a 100 grams of carbs, somewhere in there depending on the athlete.
早餐对上午的恢复和维持能量水平至关重要。
And that breakfast is just essential to help with recovery for the morning and then just those energy levels.
午餐也是一样，得吃好一顿午餐。
Same thing with lunch, having a good lunch.
我经常看到有人早餐吃得很不错，但到了中午，因为工作安排了会议，干脆就没吃午饭，只随便吃点下午茶点心。
So I often see people, they might have a good breakfast, but then the middle of the day, they someone schedules a work meeting over the lunch hour, and then they're not eating lunch, and they're just having, like a little afternoon snack.
他们担心要是中午吃太饱，晚上就没胃口了，结果一整天的饮食节奏全乱了。
Because now they're like worried if they have their whole lunch, they're not gonna be hungry at dinner, and their whole day is messed up.
所以，保持全天规律进食的节奏特别重要，这样就不会到了晚上还营养严重不足。
So having that structured routine of eating throughout the day, I think is really helpful so that you're not going to into the evening behind on nutrition.
很多运动员晚上特别想吃甜食，饿得不行，一天大部分热量都是从下午六点到睡觉前这段时间吃进去的。
That's where I see a lot of athletes have sweets cravings, just epic hunger where they're eating, like, the majority of their day's calories from 6PM to the time they go to bed.
我有个运动员，平均每天晚上吃一千五百大卡，我当时就觉得，这对肠胃负担太重了。
You know, I've had one athlete who was eating on average 1,500 calories in the evening, and I'm like, that's so hard on your gut.
临睡前还塞进这么多食物，睡眠质量肯定好不了。
And for you to go into bedtime with that much food in your system, you're not gonna sleep well.
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所以如果把营养集中在白天早些时候摄入，运动员的恢复效果会好很多。
And so with front loading more of that nutrition, I see recovery so much better for athletes.
他们的体成分也会明显改善。
I see body composition improve for them.
他们真的能增肌、提升力量。
They're actually able to put on strength and some muscle.
当你能高效地从训练中恢复过来，因为训练本身是一种压力。
And when you can recover efficiently from your workouts, because the workouts are the stress.
这种压力正是身体适应和进步的触发点。
That's like triggers that physical adaptation that's supposed to happen.
当我们用足够的营养来支持这个过程，人们才会越来越快、越来越高效。
And when we can support that with enough nutrition, that's where we start to see people getting faster and faster and more efficient.
经常有教练给我发邮件，说真的太感谢了。
And I get coaches email me saying, thank you so much.
他们终于能完整地完成整个训练计划了。
They're finally actually like completing all of their training plan.
我真正想看到的，不是那些你长跑时买的花哨运动补给品。
And that's the that's the stuff that I like to see is not just the fancy sports fuels that you might be purchasing to have during your long runs.
真正起作用的，是每天一贯的饮食习惯。
It's the consistent day to day eating routine that really pays off.
对。
Yeah.
这并不复杂。
It's not fancy.
也不够酷炫。
It's not sexy.
就是一天到晚好好吃饭，这才是让人跑得更快的关键。
It is just good old eating throughout the day that's gonna help people get faster.
没错。
Yeah.
我觉得对大多数人来说，这个安排挺合适的。
So so and and I think that's for most people a good little layout.
那对于那些刚开始参加某个赛事训练计划的人来说呢？你知道，比赛还有四到六个月才到。
I what what about the people who are starting a pro you know, a training program for for an event that's, you know, four, six months away?
对。
Mhmm.
但他们想减重，让自己更轻盈高效。不管是真正的减脂，还是为了提升运动表现而减重，总之就是想让身体感觉更好，关节负担更小，诸如此类。
But they wanna drop they wanna drop some weight so that they're a little bit more efficient, whether it's, like, legitimate weight loss situation or if it's just, like, a performance weight loss situation where they're just gonna feel better, joints are gonna feel better, all those things.
有什么建议或指导原则吗？
What are some what are some guidelines?
因为你知道，减得太快会影响训练、精力，还会增加受伤的风险。
Because, like, you know, losing too much too fast is gonna affect your your your training, your energy, your potential for injury.
这方面有很多研究可以佐证。
There's a bunch of research and all that stuff.
那如果一个人想同时兼顾这两件事，心态上该怎么调整呢？
Where where would you have people put their mindset when they're kinda trying to do both things at the same time?
对。
Yeah.
说实话，我可能是运动营养师圈子里的异类，因为如果有人来找我，说他们想减点体重，我其实完全能理解。
I might be a little bit of the black sheep of the sports dietitian world, to be honest, because I am actually okay if people come to me and they say they wanna lose some weight.
我唯一不认同的是，当他们想靠极端节食、快速减重的方式来实现目标的时候。
The only time that I have an issue is when they wanna approach it in terms of, like, a crash diet, you know, rapid weight loss.
我觉得，认可人们想变得更瘦的这种想法是没问题的。
I think that it's okay to validate those feelings for people that they wanna get leaner.
当他们说想减重，其实真正想减的是多余的体脂。
And when they say they wanna lose weight, what they're saying is they wanna lose the excess body fat.
同时希望保持，甚至增加一些肌肉。
Wanna maintain, if not put on some muscle.
我经常听到有人说，明明训练量这么大，但身体却看不出任何变化。
I hear from a lot of people that like, do all of this training, but I feel like my body doesn't reflect all of this running that I do.
别人一听说你是铁人三项运动员？
You know, people are like, oh, you're a triathlete?
你跑超马？
You're a you run ultras?
他们根本猜不到我平时这么训练，我也完全理解这种挫败感。
Like, they would never they never they'd never guess that by looking at me, and I I understand that frustration.
所以当运动员来找我，想改善体脂比例时，我绝不希望他们在训练期间节食。
And so when athlete comes to me and wants to improve body composition, I don't want them dieting in the workout.
绝对不能在训练时削减碳水或减少热量摄入，那是我最不希望看到的。
That's the last place that I want them to be cutting carbohydrates, cutting calories.
很多人一看到糖就以为会发胖，但你要明白，当你在运动时摄入运动补给，那些糖分会直接被肌肉拿去当能量用掉。
And a lot of times they associate all of that sugar with weight gain, but you have to understand that when you are exercising and you're taking in that sports fuel, it is going straight to your muscles and getting used as energy.
不会有那种明显的胰岛素飙升反应——是的，血糖会上升，但会直接被肌肉细胞吸收利用，不会囤积。
There's no, like, insulin response, like, yes, your blood sugar is going to increase, but it is going to go straight to those muscle cells and it's going to get used.
这样运动员在追求体脂目标时，才能持续保持良好的训练状态。我听过太多人说，一节食就浑身没劲，训练表现暴跌，根本完不成，也没动力出门锻炼。
And that's what helps people continue to feel great in their training when they are working on those body composition goals because I hear from so many that will start restricting and then their energy levels decrease, their workouts just tank in performance, they're not able to finish them or they don't have the motivation or energy to go out and do them.
这些问题才是真正的痛点。
That's where I see the big struggles.
所以训练期间千万别节食，这是改善体脂时最重要的一条原则。
And so you do not diet in your workouts, that is the number one rule if you are wanting to work on body composition.
其他时间我们当然可以做一些调整。
Elsewhere in the day, we certainly can work on things.
我们可以确保一整天摄入足够的蛋白质，帮助你在减脂的同时保留肌肉。
We can look at getting enough protein throughout the day to maintain your muscle mass as you try and work on reducing that body fat percentage.
我会让运动员记录饮食，这样我们能跟踪他们的摄入情况，确保总体热量稍微不足，但训练前后营养跟得上，不会挨饿，保持充沛的精力，同时建立良好的饮食结构。
I will have our athletes journal, like, you take a food journal, so that we can monitor them, make sure that we are at a bit of a calorie deficit, but we are making sure that we're fueling well well around those workouts, making sure they're not going hungry, that they still have good energy levels, and building that nice structure.
每餐都吃水果和蔬菜。
They've got fruits and vegetables at meals.
他们摄取了丰富的微量营养素。
They're getting lots of micronutrients.
我们会把大部分碳水化合物安排在白天更活跃的时候摄入，晚上可能就不需要那么多碳水了，因为白天已经够了，晚上身体也在放松，这样睡得也更踏实。
We might shift more of their carbohydrates to earlier on in their day when they're more active, And maybe they don't need massive amounts of carbs in the evening because they've already gotten enough during the day, and they're winding down for the evening, and they can just go to bed well rested.
所以我更倾向于每周减重不超过一到两磅。
So it's those types of strategies where I like to see no more than one to two pounds of weight loss a week.
理想情况下，最好控制在半磅到一磅之间。
Ideally, though, it's more like half a pound to a pound.
我们希望减重是缓慢而稳定的。
We want it to be the slow and steady weight loss.
如果减得慢而稳，主要减掉的就会是体脂，肌肉和力量也能保住，人也会感觉状态很好。
If it's slow and steady, it's gonna be mainly body fat, and we're gonna keep that muscle and strength, and people are still gonna feel really good.
这就是我的做法。
Those are that's my approach.
我常跟他们说，别给减重设个硬性截止日期，因为改变饮食习惯和生活方式往往需要时间，这完全没问题。
And I often tell them, was like, let's not set a deadline on this weight goal because sometimes it takes people a while to make the shifts in their eating behaviors, their lifestyle habits, and that's okay.
我觉得大家得明白，这事儿并不容易。
I think people need to know that this isn't easy.
有时候，你需要支持和监督，才能达到那样的状态——不用一辈子记饮食日记，也不用体重反复上下波动。
And sometimes you need that support and accountability to get you to that point where you can maintain those results without having to take a food journal for the rest of your life and without having that kind of yo yo up and down with your weight.
是的。
Yeah.
我很认同这一点。
I like that.
是的。
Yeah.
就拿减重来说，很多人其实到了某个阶段，就想再减掉一点点。
Just like for the weight stuff, just realizing, like, most people, they get to a spot where they wanna lose a little bit.
但达到这个状态可花了不少时间，不止几个月。
It took more than a couple months to get there.
所以要有耐心，确保生活方式能支持你的目标，这个过程可能需要更久一些。
So being patient and making sure that the lifestyle that the lifestyle lends to your goals, it can it can take a little longer.
而且不管怎样，你的训练状态都会越来越好，这有点儿——
And you'll feel you'll feel better through your training anyway, which is kinda
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
For sure.
我们来看看这里。
Let's see here.
运动员明明觉得自己吃得挺健康，但有哪些迹象表明他们其实吃得太少呢？
What where's some some signs that athletes aren't eating enough even if they think they're eating healthy or quote unquote healthy?
是的。
Yeah.
有意思的是，运动员有时候会跟我炫耀，说他们吃得特别干净。
The one thing that's interesting is when athletes tell me they they kind of brag to me like, oh, I eat really clean.
他们从来不碰加工食品。
I don't eat any processed foods.
几乎可以肯定，这类人都是能量摄入不足的运动员。
Almost guaranteed that they're an underfueled athlete.
对。
Yeah.
他们吃很多水果蔬菜，这当然很好，但从热量角度来说，根本不足以支撑他们每天大量的跑步量。
When, you know, they're eating tons of fruits and vegetables, which is so great, but calorically, they're just not getting enough to support the high volume of of mileage that they're putting in.
我就想到一个马拉松跑者，我们合作期间他瘦了十到十五磅，后来他还说：‘我这辈子吃的果酱夹心面包，都没过去四个月跟你们合作期间多。’
And so that's where I can think of one marathon runner that we worked with who lost ten, fifteen pounds, and he's like, I've never eaten more Pop Tarts in my life than I have the past four months working with you guys.
太逗了。
That's so funny.
这是因为我们在他们训练前后用了一些方便又好吃的碳水，这样他们一天剩下的时间就可以专注于吃那些天然的全食物了。
And it was because we're using those, like, those easy tasty carbs, like, around his workouts, and so then the rest of the day we could hone in on more of those whole food based things.
所以，我通常看到的迹象就是总是觉得累，那种全身乏力的感觉，睡眠不好，要么是一直觉得饿，要么是完全没胃口。
So so, yeah, when the signs that I typically see are just tired all the time, like just general fatigue, not sleeping well, hungry all the time, or they're not hungry at all.
对吧？
Right?
因为他们会说，我整天都不觉得饿，一直到下午三点才有感觉。
Because they're like, I just don't get hungry like all day until like 03:00.
我一听到这话，心里就明白了。
Like if I hear that, I'm like, oh, okay.
这就是个危险信号。
That's that's that's a red flag.
他们还会告诉我，训练状态一直提不起劲。
I will hear from them that their training just feels flat.
他们根本看不到任何进步。
They're not seeing any like improvements.
练了这么多，却一点都没变快，也没变强。
They're doing all this training and they haven't like seen seen themselves get faster or stronger.
可能会悄悄长胖，平时吃得不够，但突然有一天出去吃一顿，热量就爆表了。
They might see, like, un like, gradual sneaky unwanted weight gain, which is they might be underfueled most of the time, but then all of a sudden, they'll maybe go out to eat, and they'll have a massive calorie surplus day.
就是这种大起大落的饮食模式，时间一长，体重就慢慢上去了。
And then it's kind of those, like, kind of situations where those big inconsistencies, you'll see that weight gain over time.
对于女性运动员来说，月经会变得不规律，甚至停经，还容易出现应力性骨折、肌肉拉伤撕裂，各种莫名其妙的伤病接二连三。
Or for, like, menstruating athletes, they their period starts to get irregular or they lose their period, stress fractures, muscle tears, strains all the time, those kind of weird injuries that just pop up.
这些问题有很多，但你不需要全看到。
There's there's a lot of and you don't have to see all of these.
可能只出现一两个，也可能一堆全冒出来。
You might just see one or two or a host of them.
还有一点挺特别的，尤其是那些能量摄入不足的运动员，体检报告常常会出现一些异常指标。
And then the other weird one about especially with, like, reds and that relative energy deficiency in sports is you'll get kind of some funky labs.
比如你的胆固醇水平会升高。
Like, your cholesterol will be elevated.
你的血糖可能会比正常值稍高。很多人对此都很困惑，心想：我明明在减少碳水摄入，或者根本没吃多少碳水，为什么血糖还会高呢？
You might see your blood sugars be a little higher than normal, and people are always really curious, like, I'm reducing my carbs, or I'm I'm not getting like, I'm not eating that many carbs, and why would my blood sugars be high?
这是因为身体处于应激反应状态。
And it's a stress response.
这是身体在能量摄入不足时的一种普遍反应。
It's a it's a general response to us being underfueled.
所以当你看到那些异常的化验结果时，我的建议是，你不需要吃降胆固醇的药，也不需要刻意减少碳水化合物的摄入。
And so when you see those funky labs, for me, it's like, you don't need to go on a cholesterol med or you don't need to to to cut carbs.
你需要做的是增加自己的能量摄入，很多时候，只要做到这一点，那些化验指标就会明显改善。
You need to work on fueling yourself more, and a lot of times those labs will improve significantly.
你觉得
What do you
如果你非要列个清单的话，耐力运动员最容易在哪些方面做得不够？
think what do think most endurance athletes fall short if you had to, like, put a list together?
比如总热量，主要看一天的碳水摄入量。
Like, total calories would be carb intake during or in the day to day.
蛋白质呢？是不是跟训练后的恢复营养 timing 有关？
Protein, would it be fuel timing, recovery fuel?
如果非得挑一个最重要的，你觉得他们最缺的是什么？
Like, what if you had to pick one, what where where are they falling short?
我见过的那些训练量特别大的运动员，比如超马跑者，最常见的问题是蛋白质摄入不足。
The thing I see the most with the high the really high volume athletes, the ultrarunners, is usually not enough protein.
他们的脂肪摄入通常偏高。
Usually, their fat intake is a little too high.
从总热量来看，他们可能勉强够维持日常消耗，但碳水和蛋白质都不够，没法支持恢复和肌肉维持。
So, calorically, they might be close maybe closer to their maintenance level, but they're not getting enough carbs, and protein to support recovery and muscle maintenance.
而且碳水摄入也不足，没法有效储存肌糖原、促进恢复，也没法为接下来的高强度训练打好基础。
And then with those carbs, they're not getting enough to support, like, glycogen storage and recovery and setting themselves up to have strong workouts.
至于脂肪，他们摄入的量往往偏多——脂肪本身没问题，但像花生酱、坚果这些，热量很容易就堆上去了。
So they might be doing a lot of like, when it comes to the fat intake, which is nothing wrong with fat, but it's just it can add up really quickly, like peanut butter, nuts
对。
Yeah.
还有种子类、牛油果，以及烹饪用油。
Seeds, avocado, cooking oils.
这些东西的热量加起来非常快。
Those types of things just add up really quick.
所以从热量角度看，他们通过这种方式摄入了大量热量，但蛋白质和碳水化合物的摄入却不足以支撑他们如此活跃的生活方式。
So calorically, they'll get a whole bunch of calories that way, but they're not getting enough protein and enough carbs to support their really active lifestyle.
对。
Yeah.
这说得通。
That makes sense.
那对于年纪大的运动员呢？
What about for aging athletes?
比如，针对这些大哥大姐们，在营养方面有没有什么不同的考虑方式？
Like, are there any different ways to think about nutrition for those guys gals?
我肯定会把蛋白质放在更高的优先级上。
I would definitely have extra priority on protein.
研究显示，随着年龄增长，我们对蛋白质的吸收能力不如年轻时那么好，所以可能需要适当增加蛋白质的摄入量。
We've seen a little bit in the research that we don't absorb protein quite as well as we do in our younger years, so you might have to just increase that protein intake a little bit more.
确保在锻炼前后补充好能量。
Making sure to fuel the workouts well.
我建议每年做一次血液检查，重点关注铁元素、荷尔蒙水平和维生素D，确保身体得到充分支持。
I would be having labs done annually on your iron panel, hormones, making sure that you're being supported while there, vitamin d.
现在肌酸特别火，这可不是没道理的。
Also, creatine is really hot right now, and for good reason.
大量研究证明，肌酸能有效提升肌肉力量，尤其对女性很有帮助。
There's lots of really great research on it helping with muscle strength, especially in women.
素食者从饮食中获取的肌酸往往不足，因此补充肌酸是个不错的额外选择。
Plant based eaters aren't getting enough creatine through their diet, and so that can be an extra way to increase those creatine stores.
我们发现，肌肉量越多，骨密度通常也越强。
And what we're finding is the more muscle mass you have, it's linked to stronger bone density.
所以对于上了年纪的人来说，骨骼健康真的非常重要。
And so for aging adults, bone health is really important.
这个话题听起来一点都不吸引人，但对于跑步来说，确保随着年龄增长拥有强壮的骨骼真的非常关键。
It's not a sexy topic at all for people, but it really is very key for running to make sure you have good strong bones as you age.
是的。
Yeah.
这点太重要了。
That's huge.
这也说明了补充能量有多重要。
And then it just brings in how important the fueling is too.
我觉得对于那些年纪渐长、训练量还很大的运动员来说，如果不在健身房花时间去练力量，肌肉就会一天天流失。所以只要稍微多补充点营养就行。不过我一直跟人说，如果你能把跑步量减少百分之五到十，把省下来的时间拿去练力量，你的状态大概率会比外面百分之九十的人都要好。
I think for high volume athletes that are aging and they're not spending the time in the weight room, so you're you're out there muscle wasting on on a day to day basis and just fueling just a little bit more, but, you know, take I always tell people, if we could if we drop five or 10% of your running volume down and use the time for that five or 10% in the weight room, you're probably gonna feel better than 90% of people out there.
我完全理解。
And I get it.
毕竟跑步确实挺有意思的。
Like, the running is fun.
这事儿在很多方面确实容易让人上瘾。
It's it can be addicting in a lot of ways.
目标和跑步本身是一致的。
The the goals are lined up with the actual running part.
练力量的时候，你可能感觉不到自己在运动技能上有进步，但我们都知道，骨密度、生活质量，还有年纪大了之后维持肌肉有多难。
It's not doesn't feel like you're necessarily getting better at your sport when you're hitting the weights like you should, but we know too much about bone density and and just quality of life and how hard it is to keep muscle on as we get older.
所以我觉得。
So I think
就是这样。
that's all.
我明白。
I get it.
在树林里或山上跑步，对每个人来说都是最放松的地方。
Running in the woods or up the mountains is like everyone's happy place.
但健身房通常不是，不过它确实能帮你延长运动生涯。
It's not usually in the weight room, but it it will definitely set you up for longevity in your sport.
我还有几个问题。
I I have a few more questions.
那什么是比较枯燥的——我觉得你之前稍微提到过。
So what's a boring and I think you kinda touched on this earlier.
有些事情确实不酷、不刺激，但关键就在于坚持。
Like, some of the stuff isn't sexy or exciting, but it's just really you know, the consistency is what we're looking for.
那你觉得，有哪些枯燥却非常有效的饮食习惯，是希望耐力运动员能多采纳的？
But what's a boring or powerful nutritional habit that you wish more Endurance athletes would take up?
吃一顿丰盛的早餐。
A bigger breakfast.
天哪。
Oh my god.
我特别推崇早餐。
I'm such a fan of breakfast.
对。
Yeah.
这顿早餐简直像是一顿神奇的饭。
It's like a it truly is like a magical meal.
它真的能改变人的生活。
Like, it just revolutionizes people's lives.
我会让他们吃一顿更丰盛的早餐。
I get them to eat a bigger breakfast.
如果你平时根本不吃早餐，也不觉得饿，那就从简单的开始，我有个运动员以前完全不吃早餐。
And if you're someone that doesn't eat a breakfast at all, you don't get hungry at all, start with, like I had an athlete who didn't eat any breakfast.
她特别喜欢那种核心营养品，草莓香蕉味的。
Was like, she really liked those core powers, the strawberry banana one.
她跟我说：‘亚历克斯，这个真不错。’
She goes, oh, Alex, those are really good.
我回答：‘是啊，确实不错。’
I was like, yeah, they are.
我就说：‘那咱们早上就喝一杯吧。’
I was like, let's just drink one of those in the morning.
早上起床，孩子在门口等着，我就跟她说，八点前先喝一杯那个。
When you wake up and you're getting your kids at the door, I was like, just drink one of those by 8AM.
那东西对她来说就像是个入门的钥匙。
It was like a gateway food for her.
于是我就建议，既然你已经在喝这个核心能量饮了，不如再配一片吐司，抹点花生酱。
And so then eventually, I'm like, okay, with that core power, let's add a piece of toast with a little bit of peanut butter on there.
她就说，哦，这个我能做到。
She's like, oh, yeah, I could do that.
一个月后，我又说，咱们再加点新鲜水果吧。
And then a month later, was like, let's add some fresh fruits.
你是在给孩子准备早餐。
You're serving it to your kids.
给自己也加一小杯蓝莓之类的，没什么难的。
Let's add like a little cup of blueberries or something for yourself.
到最后，她已经能吃上一顿完整的早餐了，然后她说，我有点吃腻这个核心能量饮了。
And so by the time we got done, she was having this like full blown meal, and then she's like, I'm kinda getting a little tired of the core power.
我觉得挺好。
I was like, great.
那就再给早餐加点别的食物，然后把蛋白粉改成下午加餐的选项，或者那天你不想喝也行，换点别的。
Well, let's add some more food to your breakfast and then switch that core power as an option, like, in your mid afternoon, or maybe you don't have it that day and you do something else.
所以慢慢来，一点一点把这些改变融入生活，不会让人觉得营养调整是件多夸张的事，真正能让你长期受益的，正是这些持续、稳定、微小的改变。
And so slowly, gradually implementing those changes over time, it doesn't feel like it's this dramatic change that everyone thinks that they need to do with their nutrition, but it's these, like, steady, consistent, small changes over time that are going to pay off the biggest for you long term.
对。
Yeah.
太棒了。
I love that.
顺便说一句，我完全吃得下丰盛的早餐。
I have no problem eating a big breakfast, by the way.
太好了。
Good.
我真高兴。
I'm so glad.
我特别喜欢。
I'm a huge fan.
我长跑那天早上，最爱吃煎饼配枫糖浆。
I'm in, like, pancakes and pancake syrup for the morning of my long run is my personal favorite to have.
是的。
Yeah.
真的特别棒。
It's so good.
每次我跑得特别顺，我就觉得，肯定是那些煎饼的功劳。
It's every time I have a good workout, I'm like, it's those dang pancakes.
每次都是它们赢。
They just win every time.
至于超过两小时的运动，你最后三分之一的时间基本都在想吃完之后要吃啥。
Well, then for anything over about two hours, like, you literally just spend the last third of every effort thinking about what you're gonna eat afterwards too.
真是又好吃又开心的事。
So good good fun stuff.
好吧。
Alright.
跑完一场50英里的比赛后，你只有两个选择。
After a race, you just got down with 50 miler, and you have two choices.
一张桌上放着一瓶可乐，另一张桌上放着一杯IPA啤酒。
There's a Coke sitting on one table, and there's a there's a IPA sitting on the other.
你会选哪个？为什么？
Which one do you take and why?
选可乐，百分之百选可乐。这时候恢复才是重点，身体特别需要碳水。
The Coke, 100 Because now it's all about recovery, and your body really needs the carbs.
我的意思是，如果都晚上十点了，咖啡因其实帮不上什么忙。
I mean, if it's 10:00 at night, the caffeine is not gonna be super helpful.
所以最好是无咖啡因的可乐，毕竟你得好好睡觉。
So if it's preferably a non caffeinated Coke, because obviously I want you to go to bed.
但那个IPA，我猜是含酒精的那种吧。
But that that IPA is I'm assuming it's an alcoholic like IPA.
就是这样
That's what
我们就是这个意思。
we have.
这正是关键。
That's the point.
没错。
Yeah.
它对恢复一点帮助都没有。
It is not gonna help recovery.
反而会让你脱水。
It's gonna dehydrate you.
会严重影响你接下来几天的状态。
It is going to hinder a lot of how how you feel the rest of the next couple days.
所以我跟大家说，喝酒之前，先补水、补能量，把这些都做完再说。
So I tell people with the alcohol situation, I want you to rehydrate, refuel, do all of that before you even head for your celebratory beer.
如果你能做到这点，喝一杯庆祝的啤酒我也能接受，但最好是干脆等一等。
If you can do that, I'm fine with one celebratory beer, but ideally like just wait Yeah.
因为这会影响睡眠。
Because it's and it's gonna impact sleep.
我明白你的意思。
Like it like, I get it.
不过现在也有很多不错的无酒精啤酒，你也可以用它们来庆祝。
But the there's a lot of really great NA beers too that you can
对。
Yeah.
而且也可以用它们来庆祝。
Celebrate with as well.
我想到很多耐力赛，每个补给站都有可乐，终点线附近也通常会有酒精饮料。
Well, I I was thinking about most ultras, like, there's Coke at every aid station, and there's usually some type of alcohol at every finish line.
所以很明显，从快速补充糖原的角度来看，可乐造成的伤害最小。
So, obviously, like, the the least harm done would be from the Coke for just replenishing glycogen right off the bat.
但是，对。
But Mhmm.
我有个挺有意思的问题。
Have a fun question.
然后，这个你得给出个答案。
And then I I you have to have a you have to have an answer to this one.
在这个行业里，关于补给方面，你有什么特别讨厌的习惯或者现象吗？
What what is like a pet peeve of yours from people in this segment of the industry when it comes to fueling?
网上的信息真的太多了。
There's so much information out there.
你刚才说的这些，我很多都从靠谱的渠道听过，学校里也学过。
Most of the stuff that you're you're talking about right now, I've heard from many good sources and stuff I learned in school.
听起来都挺有道理的。
It all makes sense.
感觉一点都不离谱，所以我挺感激的，毕竟要是你满脑子都是那些奇奇怪怪的想法，估计也上不了这节目。
Nothing seems like it's out of left field, so I really appreciate that because you probably wouldn't be on the show anyway if you had all those crazy thoughts.
作为一名有二十多年经验的教练，我也有自己的一些小反感。
So and I know from being a coach for over twenty years, I have my own little pet peeves.
但至少你得有一两个特别想说的，如果大家能避免这些行为，或者把注意力放在别处，情况可能会更好。
But you gotta have one or two that are just at the very least, if people would just not do them or pay put their attention somewhere else, they'd probably be better off.
是的。
Yeah.
我来给你说两个我特别反感的。
I've I'll give you two pet peeves.
好的。
Okay.
第一，做好自己的本分。
Number one is stay in your lane.
如果你不是注册营养师，就别越界给出这方面的建议了。
If you are not a registered dietitian, you know, leave that advice to the experts.
我知道很多人是出于好心，但一旦给出特别具体的建议，就真的让人担心了。
I mean, I understand for a lot of people they have good intentions, but it gets really worrisome, especially when it's really specific advice Yeah.
而且把这些信息随便传播给大众，对有些人可能会造成伤害。
And giving it to the masses, that can be harmful for some people.
这真的挺让人头疼的。
And and that's really tough.
所以我的建议是，每个人都要管好自己的事。
So stay in your lane is my my recommendation for people.
另一个让我反感的是，别人随便评论他人的身材。
And then my other one is people commenting on other people's bodies.
我最近刚和一些运动员聊过，他们参加比赛时，有人走过去搭话。
I just had conversations with some athletes recently where they were at a race, and someone went up to him.
对方说：嘿。
They're like, hey.
我能给你一些建议吗？
Can I just offer a piece of advice?
这位是我的一位男性客户，他当时就回答：好啊。
And this was a a gentleman client of mine, and he's like, sure.
他就在那儿说，你要是能瘦十五磅，肯定在这场比赛里碾压所有人。
And he's there, like, if you lost 15 pounds, you would just, like, crush everyone at this race.
这简直太离谱了。
And I Crazy.
其实他那场比赛表现得特别好。
And, like, he had a really good race.
他拿了第二名。
He came in second.
天哪。
Oh my god.
他为此特别自豪。
And he was super proud of it.
但那个人不知道，他几年前刚从一场严重的自行车车祸中恢复，这是他复出后的第一场比赛。
And what this person didn't know is that this was his first race back from a horrific car accident on a bike, like, a few years ago.
他当时紧张得要命，生怕再上赛道，能拿到第二名对他来说已经是个巨大的成就。
And so he was just, like, so nervous to be back on outside on a bike during a race, and it was a big deal for him to come in second.
有人居然这么说，我真是气坏了。
And then for someone to just, like, say that, I was like, just I was irate.
我心想，天哪。
I was like, oh my god.
是那个赢的人吗？
Guy who won?
因为可能只有他才……
Because that's about the only person who's
不是。
No.
不是他。
It wasn't.
不是。
No.
不是那个赢的人。
It wasn't the guy who won.
所以我真的希望，人们能别乱说话了。
So I I just was I I just wish that people would just not say anything.
你根本不知道别人正在经历什么，这跟你没关系。
You don't know anyone's situation and what they're going through, and it's none of your business.
你心里怎么想，当然没问题。
You can certainly have those thoughts.
我们都难免会拿自己和别人比较，这很正常，但我就告诉孩子，想法留在心里就好。
I mean, we all have comparisons to each other, and that's natural, but just keep it as an inside thought is how I tell tell to my kids.
我就说，哎呀，宝贝。
I'm like, oh, hon.
我说，孩子们啊。
Like, hey, kids.
那只是你心里的想法。
That was an inside thought.
咱们别再说了。
Let's let's not
对。
Yeah.
把这些话说出来。
Sit in that out loud.
所以目前我最看不惯的两件事，就是管好自己别多管闲事，还有对彼此友善一点。
So those are my two pet peeves definitely right now, is just stay in your lane and just be kind to one another.
是的。
Yeah.
那确实挺好的。
It'd be nice.
算了，不提了。
Never mind.
我以前在这儿带过青少年棒球。
I was I coached youth baseball here.
那是我大学时的学校。
That was my school in college.
还带过那群12岁的孩子，那帮孩子特别棒。
And coached these 12 year olds, just awesome group of kids.
然后，你知道，我会安排那些没怎么投过球的孩子上场，他们肯定会遇到点困难，但这正是训练的目的。
And, you know, I put kids in who haven't pitched much, and they're gonna struggle a little bit, which is part of the point.
你懂吧？
You know?
对。
Mhmm.
其中一个孩子表现不太好。
And one of the kids was struggling.
那是他这一年第二次投球了，他爸爸和我关系很好，他在看台上大喊，嘿。
It's his second time pitching all year, and his dad, who I'm good friends with, he's he's in the stands like, hey.
投出好球吧。
Let's do strikes.
他当时就说了句，亚历克斯，真的吗？
He's like, Alex, and was like, really?
这就是你的建议？
That's the advice?
你觉得他到底想干嘛，兄弟？
What do you think he's trying to do, dude?
不就是这么回事嘛。
Like, same thing.
如果有人需要减重，或者明显看得出他减点体重会更好，那他自己早就知道了。
If somebody needs to lose some weight or it's obvious that they want would do better with some weight off, like, they already know it.
你没必要特意去说这个。
You don't have to tell them.
你不如去夸夸他。
Just go and say something nice to them.
你明白我的意思吧？
You know what mean?
对。
Yeah.
恭喜你完成比赛，表现真的很棒，对吧？
Like, congratulations on your finish, and you did great and isn't it like yeah.
你可以讲的其他话多着呢。
There's so many other things that you can say.
是的。
Yeah.
这太不可思议了。
That's so crazy.
亚历克斯，你分享了超多有用的信息啊。
Well, Alex, a lot of good information, dude.
我超喜欢这次对话。
I I I love the conversation.
我们问什么你都能答上来，而且总还有更大的话题可以聊。
You had an answer for everything we threw at you and there's always there's always room for like bigger conversations.
但每次请新人来，我一般都直接切入你的专长领域。
But anytime I have people on here for the first time, it's like, let's just kind of dive into your expertise.
如果你以后有什么想分享的内容，比如从客户那里学到的新东西，或者有新的想法，随时欢迎你再来。
If you have things you want to share in the future, if you have ideas or you've you you learned something from a client and you want to come on again, I always have open invitation for people.
我们非常期待你下次再来做客。
So we'd love to have you on again.
大家可以通过什么渠道了解你和你的工作呢？
What's a good place for people to find you and everything you're doing?
是的。
Yeah.
我的网站是 alexlarsonnutrition.com。
My website's alexlarsonnutrition.com.
我还有一个播客叫《耐力饮食》，专门聊耐力运动相关的营养话题。
I do have a podcast called Endurance Eats, so I talk all about endurance nutrition topics.
在社交媒体上，你可以搜索 Alex Larson Nutrition，主要在 Instagram 上，其他平台我也都有账号。
And, on social media, I am at Alex Larson Nutrition, mainly on Instagram though I am on other channels as well.
当然了。
Heck yeah.
太棒了。
Awesome.
非常感谢。
Thank you so much.
希望你们喜欢这次对话。
Hope you guys enjoyed it.
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