《投行风云》联合创作者米基·唐与康拉德·凯

你好。

Hi there.

我是米凯拉。

It's Michela.

在《金钱背后》这个节目里，我们通常带你深入了解全球金融和商业领域的真实高风险戏剧。

Most of the time here on Behind the Money, we're bringing you inside the real high stakes dramas of finance and business from around the world.

但这一周，我们将走向一个稍微不同的方向。

But this week, we're going somewhere a little bit different.

也就是说，我们将进入热门电视剧《行业》中角色的虚构世界。

That is, we're going inside the fictional world of the characters on the hit TV drama Industry.

《行业》讲述了一些极具野心的年轻人在伦敦金融界打拼的故事。

Industry tells the story of some very ambitious young people making their way in London's financial sector.

这与我们所有人所处的现实并不那么遥远，这也是我发现这部剧如此吸引人的原因之一。

And it's not so terribly unlike the reality in which we're all living, which is part of what I find so fascinating about this show.

第四季的季终集已于本周早些时候播出。

Season four finale just aired earlier this week.

今天，我们将与该剧的联合创作者康拉德·凯和米基·唐对话，探讨剧集情节与现实金融世界的交集。

And today, we're gonna be talking with the show's co creators, Konrad Kay and Mickey Down, exploring the overlap between the show's storylines and real world finance.

另外提醒一下，接下来的内容涉及剧透。

And just a warning, there are spoilers ahead.

坐在我旁边的是我的同事富兰克林，他担任《金融时报》美国银行业编辑。

Sitting next to me here in our New York studio is my colleague, Franklin, who is the FT's US banking editor.

乔什为《金融时报》报道美国主要银行，包括高盛、摩根大通和摩根士丹利。

Josh reports on some of the major American banks, including Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase, and Morgan Stanley here for the FT.

过去几周，我和他在办公室里也多次讨论过《Industry》这部剧。

He and I have also been talking about industry here in the office quite a bit over the last several weeks.

嘿，乔什。

Hey, Josh.

很高兴你来了。

Glad you're here.

非常高兴能来到这里。

Very happy to be here.

欢迎。

Welcome.

现在，我们从英国连线了《行业》的创作者康拉德·凯和米基·唐，来聊聊这部剧集。

And now joining us from The UK, we have the creators of Industry, Konrad Kay and Mickey Down to talk all about this show.

你好，康拉德。

Hi, Konrad.

你好。

Hello.

嘿，米基。

And hey, Mickey.

你好。

Hello.

你怎么样？

How are you?

很好。

Great.

很高兴你们两位都能来。

So glad to have you guys both here.

那我们就开始吧。

So let's dive into it.

你们俩认识已经有一段时间了。

You both have known each other for a while.

你们在牛津上学时就认识了，之后都短暂地进入金融行业工作。

You met at school attending Oxford, and then you both went into finance for a bit.

这段经历是怎么促使你们想把它拍成电视剧的？

What about that experience made you wanna turn it into a TV show?

是的。

Yeah.

我很高兴你用了‘短暂’这个词，因为我被称作前金融从业者时，总觉得自己名不副实——毕竟我只在金融行业工作了一年左右。

I'm glad you qualified with for a bit because I was feeling like a bit of a fraud when I'm referred to as an ex financier, given I worked in finance for about a year.

康拉德待得久一些。

Konrad had a bit of a longer stint.

听好了。

Look.

我们进入这个行业的途径挺有意思的。

We we it was interesting way in.

我和康拉德是在大学认识的。

Like, me and Konrad met at university.

后来我们都在金融行业找到了工作。

We end up in these jobs in finance.

我从事投资银行的并购业务，而康拉德则在交易大厅工作。

I worked in investment banking in mergers and acquisitions, and Konrad worked on the trading floor.

所以你们对金融城有着比较全面的了解。

So you had a kind of, like, quite rounded take or view into the city.

我们第一次一起写的东西是一个雏形项目，叫《Not an Exit》，那其实是一堆点子的集合。

The first thing we wrote together was this proto industry, which was called Not an Exit, and it was and then was sort of a bag of ideas.

它有点像一部生活剧，但通过投资银行的视角展开，剧中角色包括董事总经理。

It was kind of like a slice of life show, but through the prism of an investment bank, It had characters who were MDs.

剧中还有角色是首席执行官。

It had characters that who were the CEO.

剧中还有基于我和康拉德的角色，他们处于职业阶梯的最底层。

It also had characters based on me and Konrad who were kind of at the bottom of the career ladder.

之后我们把它放进抽屉里，忘了它，直到我们遇到了简·特兰特，她是Bad Wolf公司的制片人，制作了这部剧。

And we kinda put it into a drawer and forgot about it until we met Jane Tranter, who was the producer from Bad Wolf who makes the show.

她说：你们有没有想过写一部以这个金融世界为背景的剧？

And she said, have you ever thought about writing where a show is set in this world?

我们说：哦，我们其实已经写过一部了。

And we said, oh, we actually had written one.

她读了之后觉得，这虽然是一堆零散的想法，但确实有些东西值得挖掘。

And she read it, and she thought, you know, this is a bag of ideas, but there's definitely something here.

但她给我们的建议是：干脆把所有老角色及其视角都删掉，第三季就聚焦在那些刚加入银行的底层新人身上。

But the note that she gave us was, like, just cut all these older characters and their perspectives for the third season and make it about the people who are at the bottom, people joining the bank.

这为我们打开了思路，因为首先，它让我们能以不同的视角来看这部剧——毕竟，这个世界的叙事通常都是自上而下的。

And that was what unlocked it for us because, firstly, it allowed us to look on the show from a different lens, because, you know, stuff said in this world is usually from a top down perspective.

它讲述的是那些拥有最大权力和最多财富的人。

It's about people who have the most power and the most money.

这让我们能够从一个不同的视角来讲故事。

And this allowed us to tell a story from a different perspective.

但你知道，你是通过哈珀的视角来呈现的，她是一位非裔与白人混血的美国女性，这赋予了故事一种流浪汉小说式的、积极进取的特质，使其带有一点局外人的色彩。

But, you know, you did it through the lens of Harper, who's a biracial American woman, which gave this sort of picaresque, go getter quality, made it a bit of an outsider story.

而一直以来，我们都是这样做的。

And then, again, like, we've been doing this the entire time.

我们一直在悄悄地把我们想写的内容融入到这个行业里。

We've been kind of Trojan horsing what we want to write about into industry.

在第一季中，我们写的是关于一群有抱负的人的日常生活剧，只不过恰好发生在银行里。

And in season one, it was about writing a slice of life show about ambitious people that happened to be set in the bank.

而它如今已发展成比那更宏大的东西。

And what it's grown into is something slightly bigger than that.

但它始终原本就打算真实而有趣地呈现我们所经历过的这个世界。

But it was always kind of supposed to be a fun and authentic rendering of the world that we had experienced.

是的

Yeah.

这正是我想更深入探讨的。

Well, that's exactly what I wanna dig into a bit more.

在观看这部剧的四季过程中，我特别享受的一点是，正如你所说，第一季我几乎把它看作是对投资银行的入门介绍。

Part of what I've really enjoyed about watching this show over the four seasons is, you know, as you say, season one, I sort of saw it also as like a intro to investment banking almost.

但我非常喜爱第二、三、四季中，你们深入探讨了金融领域的一些重大趋势，并将这些趋势转化为角色在各季中所经历的引人入胜的故事线。

But I've really loved how in seasons two and three and four, you've really dug into some major trends in finance and then turn those into really compelling storylines that your characters are then navigating through the seasons.

比如第二季，讲述了迷因股票和华尔街赌局在疫情后兴起的故事。

So like in season two, there was the story of the rise of meme stocks and Wall Street bets, like coming out of the pandemic.

第三季则聚焦于ESG的兴起与衰落、Pure Point的崩盘，以及瑞信倒闭的回响。

And then season three, the rise and fall of ESG, Pure Point's meltdown, echoes of the Credit Suisse collapse.

作为一名在《金融时报》工作的人，这一切对我来说都极其迷人。

I mean, as someone working at the FT, that all has just been so fascinating to me.

你们为什么选择这些主题和趋势来推动你们的故事？

Why did you decide to pick out those kinds of themes and trends to help tell your story?

我的意思是，每一季《行业》都反映了我和米奇过去两年的生活。

I mean, look, every season of Industry is about two years of mine and Mickey's life.

所以在开始真正写作和构思剧情之前，我们创作时所处的世界宏观环境总会不自觉地渗透进来。

So the ideation period before we start actually writing and breaking story, the macro landscape of the world in which we're writing inevitably creeps in.

比如，你就提到了ESG这个例子。

Like, just pick an example that you mentioned, like ESG.

我的意思是，这部剧一直带着点调侃的意味，同时也是一种我所说的高功能黑色喜剧式讽刺。

I mean, the show has always operated with its tongue in its cheek a little bit, and also as a kind of, I would say, a high functioning black comedy satire as well.

对我们来说，ESG以及它在资本主义体系中被赋予的所谓高尚性，正是我们想要深入剖析、尽情玩味的素材，因为这部剧显然始终建立在一种高度的犬儒主义之上。

And for us, ESG and the kind of the supposed valorousness of it within a capitalist machine was kind of it was sort of catnip for us to unpack and have a bit of fun with because the show is obviously always operating on a pretty high level of cynicism.

而我们不断读到的关于这类话题的宣传，感觉正是绝佳的讽刺对象。

And to us, the kind of the messaging around that stuff that we kept reading about felt like something that was ripe to be skewered.

因此，它成了我们这一季的基石。

So it became a sort of bedrock for the season for us.

然后，第四季就是一个很好的例子。

And then, you know, and season four is a really good example.

我们真的想探讨创业与身份之间的交集。

Like, we really wanted to write about this sort of intersection of entrepreneurship and identity.

我们想把这个主题推向最合乎逻辑的极端表现——一个近乎反社会的企业家、犯罪大师，他几乎就要打造出一个东西了。

We wanted to take that to its most logical extreme manifestation, which was a kind of borderline sociopathic entrepreneur, criminal mastermind who's very, very close to building something.

他所打造的东西，其原罪建立在欺诈之上，但他已经非常接近于构建出一个完全运作的系统。

Building something that the original sin is based on a fraud, but he's he's very close to building something fully functioning.

只要他能让足够多的人相信它，就能将其接入金融体系，让它被吞没，从而让自己获得成功。

And if he can just get enough people to believe in, he can plug it into the financial system, and it can get swallowed up, and he can make a success of himself.

因此，每一季之间，这部剧之所以发展如此之大、不断变化和演进，纯粹是因为我和米奇作为创作者逐渐成熟了。

So season on season, the reason the show has developed so much and changed and evolved is purely because me and Mickey as creators have kinda matured.

那种反映我们青春岁月的、关于药物、性与享乐的生活切片，体现在第一季中。

So the slice of life show, the drug sex, and hedonism of our youth, that was reflected in the first season.

然后，你知道，我们变老了。

And then, you know, we've become older.

我们对所创作的内容也变得更加敏锐了。

We've become slightly more observant about the things we're writing about.

关于这一点，我想深入聊聊第四季。

And so on that, I do wanna drill into to season four a little bit.

我想说，虽然这与几年前《金融时报》报道的Wirecard事件并非一一对应。

I would say, while it's definitely not a a kind of one for one comparison with the Wirecard story that was covered in the FT a few years ago.

但我认为确实有很多相似之处，对于不了解的人，那是一家欺诈性的德国支付公司，曾是空头投资者关注的焦点。

I think there are certainly a lot of similarities and for people who aren't aware that's a fraudulent German payments company that was, you know, a big focus of short sellers.

我只是好奇，你们为什么想深入这个题材？在创作中，你们借鉴了哪些元素，又有哪些地方选择受其启发但走向了不同方向？

I'm just wondering why you wanted to dig into that and what things you decided to borrow from and then things that you kind of wanted to maybe take inspiration from but kind of go in a different direction.

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

正如康拉德所说，我们一直倾向于从现实中汲取素材。

We've always sort of, as Konrad said, we've always sort of borrowed from reality.

这很有趣，因为这其实是一种平衡——既要对现实有所参照，又要尽量具有前瞻性，比如第二季，我们做了关于远程医疗的整个故事，结果写完后不久，这事儿就真的实现了。

It's interesting because, like, it's a kind of balancing out between being, you know, referential to stuff and also trying to be a bit prescient because, you know, season two, for example, we did this whole thing about telehealth, sort of came kind of to fruition after we wrote it.

至于政治方面，我们总是试图走在前面，预测未来十二到十八个月内国家可能发生的政治变化。

And then, well, the politics stuff, we're always trying to sort of be ahead of the curve in terms of what we think is gonna happen to the country from the political angle in the next twelve to eighteen months.

但Wirecard的故事吸引我们，首先是因为它涉及叙事，其次是因为它关乎激励机制。

But the Wirecard story was interesting to us because it was firstly about storytelling and and secondly about incentive structures.

Wirecard是一家看似辉煌、备受尊敬的上市公司，收入丰厚，所有人都被激励去相信它是一家以惊人速度增长的公司。

In that Wirecard was this kind of illustrious prestigious company listed company taking in a lot of revenue, and everyone was incentivized to believe that it was this, you know, bare mouth which was growing at a rate of knots.

而激励机制奖励的是增长，而不是事实真相。

And, you know, incentives rewarded the growth rather than the truth of it.

这在第四季中是一个非常有趣的话题。

That was just a really interesting thing to deal with in season four.

正如康拉德所说，这部剧从第一季的日常生活剧，逐渐演变为第四季那种接近间谍阴谋的类型。

And like, as Konrad said, the show has evolved from this kind of slice of life show in season one to this espionage conspiracy sort of adjacent thing in season four.

我们只是觉得，让一个神秘的科技领袖作为核心人物非常有意思，他集中体现了那些利用脆弱系统进行欺诈者的诸多特征。

We just thought it was quite interesting to have at the center of that a kind of enigmatic tech leader who sort of encapsulates a lot of the characteristics of the fraudsters who have been exploiting vulnerable systems.

比如，借助复杂性来掩盖风险，利用缺乏尽职调查的漏洞——这些在像PeerPoint这样的银行中较难实现，但在金融科技领域却更容易做到。

So, like, you know, the leaning on complexity in masking risk and the leaning on, like, the lack of due diligence, the stuff that would have been a little bit more with a bank like PeerPoint is easier to do in the fintech space.

但说实话，我觉得人们一直在努力弄清楚接下来该做什么。

But quite honestly, I think people are constantly trying to, like, figure out actually what to do next.

所以这感觉是一种非常有趣的切入方式。

So that just felt like a quite interesting way in.

而且，正如你所说，这并不是对真实事件的一一对应，我们还从其他一些欺诈故事中汲取了精神灵感。

And then again, like, it just felt like a really good you know, as you said, it's not a one for one comp of the story, and, you know, we've also borrowed from, spiritually, from other stories of fraud.

但这个故事感觉特别引人入胜，因为它是欧洲的一件大事，而你们显然也深受其影响。

But this felt like a really compelling, slightly under told story because, you know, it was a big thing in Europe, and then, obviously, you guys are kind of buffet with it.

但我认为在美国，这件事的影响力并没有在这里这么大。

But I'm not sure it was a huge story in in The US as much as it was here.

我认为扬·马萨雷克从未带马库斯·布劳恩去过荣耀洞。

I don't think, Jan Marsalek ever took Marcus Braun to a glory hole.

我的意思是，这可能是我们艺术上的虚构。

I mean, I I think that that was that was possibly artistic invention on our part.

所以也许我们掌握了一些内部信息。

So Perhaps we have inside information.

没错。

That's true.

我的意思是，实际上，据我们所知，他可能确实就是这么做的。

I mean, actually, that might have been exactly what he did for all we know.

现在，《金融时报》需要继续深入挖掘这个故事。

Now the FT just needs to keep on doing more digging in this story.

我的意思是，人们总是问我，米奇，这部剧有多真实。

I mean, people always ask me, Mickey, how real the show is.

我认为这是因为，某种程度上，第一季对交易大厅和投资银行部门的呈现非常纪实。

And I think it was it was a function of the fact that, in a way, it was such a verite rendering of a trading floor in an investment banking division in season one.

而且当时的 stakes 虽然小得多，但因为角色都很年轻，被放大到了惊人的程度。

And the stakes were so much smaller, but drawn into these magnificent proportions because the characters were so young.

所以，点错一份沙拉都像是发生了核灾难。

So getting the salad order wrong on their desk felt like a nuclear holocaust.

但我想，现在这部剧已经逐渐演变成了一种更像哈哈镜的东西，而不是一面映照现实的镜子。

But what we've kind of done I think now the show has kind of morphed into more of a rather than a mirror held up to reality, it's more of a kind of fun house mirror held up to reality.

所以它有点超现实。

So it's kind of hyper real.

我们总是追求最富戏剧性的表现，角色方面，你知道，我们依然希望保留他们之前那种人性的细腻，但他们变成了更大系统中的更大齿轮，视野也变得越来越宽广。

We always go for the most operatic and the characters, you know, we still write them hopefully with all the nuance of the humanity they had before, but they become larger cogs in a larger system and the apertures got wider and wider.

因为坦白说，我们对书写整个生态系统——不仅仅是金融，而是更广泛的资本主义——越来越感兴趣。

Because frankly, we've just become more interested in writing about the sort of ecosystem, not just of finance, but of capitalism more generally.

所以是政治与新闻业的交汇点，这也是为什么Wirecard这个故事在某种程度上吸引了我们，因为它让我们更深入地解构了这些事物如何相互影响，以及人们如何被它们左右，尽管他们以为自己在掌控一切。

So politics and the intersection of politics and newspapers, which is why, again, why the Wirecard story appealed in some ways to us in terms of, like, a wider deconstruction of how these things all feed into each other and how people are kind of at the mercy of them even though they think they're controlling them.

是的。

Mhmm.

是的。

Mhmm.

你们对这一季的反馈如何？

What has the feedback you guys have received for this season?

这种反馈怎么样？

What has that been like?

而且，与第一季播出后你们听到的反馈相比，现在有什么变化吗？

And maybe how has that changed from what you were hearing after season one aired?

天啊。

Oh, god.

简直是天壤之别。

I mean, it's been chalk and cheese.

第一季的时候，我几乎没收到什么反馈。

Season one, I I was barely any feedback to season one.

它是在疫情期间播出的。

It came out during the pandemic.

几乎被埋没在了角落里。

It kind of threw under the radar.

它获得了一些中等偏上的评价，但在那样的环境下，已经足够让我们拿到第二季了。

It got some middling to okay reviews, but it was enough in that landscape to get us a season two.

而且，这足以证明HBO给了我们第二季，真的很了不起。

And, you know, it's a testament to HBO that they gave us a season two.

我认为，他们当时完全有权利取消这部剧。

They would have been well within their rights to can it at that point, I think.

我完全同意。

I totally agree.

是的。

Yeah.

但第四季完全不一样了。

And but it's completely different in season four.

我的意思是，有三个人突然爆红了。

Mean, like, three kind of broke out.

我们把播出时间从周日晚上改掉了。

We removed the senate Sunday nights.

人们开始以相当强烈的兴趣撰写关于它的文章，媒体也进行了大量报道，观众人数也随之上升。

People started writing about it with quite a lot of intensity, and there was a lot of coverage, and the the viewership climbed.

所以在第四季，所有这些事情再次发生，但我觉得人们现在以一种我非常喜欢并感到欣慰的方式与它产生了共鸣。

So in season four, all those things happened again, but I feel like people are really engaging it with in a way that I I really like and find gratifying.

这种参与并不总是积极的。

That's not always a positive engagement.

我的意思是，人们在网上争论这部剧的发展方向，你知道，老实说，我认为任何对电视剧的参与都是好事。

I mean, like, people are, you know, arguing online about the direction it's gone in and, you know I mean, I I honestly think any engagement is good on a TV show.

任何能让你思考、放下手机并真正投入的事情，都是一种成功。

I think anything that makes you think about something and put your phone down and actually engage is is a success.

如果你看了八个小时的《行业》，最后感觉很糟糕，或者想出去散散步，或者再也不想看它了，但这部剧确实引发了情感反应，我认为这是好事，而且相当罕见。

If you watch eight hours of Industry and you're you know, you feel terrible at the end of it or you feel like you wanna, you know, go for a long walk or you never wanna watch it again, the fact that it's actually eliciting an emotion, I think, is a good thing and actually quite rare.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我确实让乔什在为《金融时报》报道银行业时，向他的某些消息源询问他们是否看过这部剧。

And and I actually I've asked Josh as he covers banking for the FT to ask some of his sources about whether they've been watching this show.

是的。

Yeah.

我很想知道，你从金融行业从业者那里得到的反馈是什么。

And I'm curious, you know, what the feedback you get from people who work in the industry.

因为我会说，尤其是第一季和第二季，来自不同银行的人会告诉我，哦，这个是摩根大通。

Because I'll say, you know, certainly, especially, you know, season one, season two, people would from different banks would tell me, oh, this is JPMorgan.

这个是高盛。

This is Goldman Sachs.

所以我很想知道，听到人们在剧中认出自己的银行，是否会让你感到欣慰。

And so I'm curious if that's gratifying in a way to hear people recognize their banks in the show.

我想知道，这是否是你希望获得的反馈，以及你从金融行业人士那里听到的评价是什么。

I'm wondering if that's kind of the feedback you were hoping to get and what you hear from people who work in finance.

这些在银行工作的人的自尊心很强，他们总是觉得剧中角色就是自己。

The ego of the most of these guys who work in these banks mean that they always think that it's them.

是的。

Yeah.

他们有点沉浸在剧里了。

It's kind of absorbing the show.

尤其是我们身边的人，他们会说，哦，那个情境明显就是我。

Like, especially people we work with, they're like, oh, well, that's obviously me in that situation.

我十年都没想过你了。

It's like, I haven't thought about you in ten years.

我没有。

I don't

我想不到这怎么可能跟你有关。

know how it could possibly be you.

除非是潜意识里，你知道的，这也很真实。

Unless it's subconscious, you know, which is also very true.

我的意思是，第一季里确实融合了我们在金融行业认识的某些人。

I mean, there there are definite composites of people we met in our time in the industry in the first season.

我的意思是，佩尔波因特是这些银行的综合体。

I mean, Pearpoint is a composite of all of these banks.

你知道，人们总以为它们有不同的文化。

You know, like, like to think they have different cultures.

其实它们并没有不同的文化。

They don't have different cultures.

它们有不同的历史，也许季度利润也不同，但所有这些机构的文化都非常相似。

They have different histories and maybe different different quarterly profits, but the cultures are pretty homogenous across all of them.

我的意思是，尤其是美国的这些银行，尽管摩根士丹利声称自己和高盛完全不同。

I mean, especially the American ones, even though, know, Morgan Stanley wants to say it's nothing like Goldman Sachs.

我的意思是，它们怎么可能不同呢？

I mean, how could they be?

你说这话时，乔什正在微笑。

Josh is smiling here as you say that.

我记得曾经和一个正在决定加入这些银行中哪个团队的人交谈过，他观察了自己将要汇报的上级，根据哪个团队的离婚率最高来决定加入哪一个。

Well, I remember once talking to a a source who was deciding which team at one of these banks to join, and he looked at the senior people he'd be reporting to, and he judged which one to join based on which team had the highest divorce rate.

他认为这在某种程度上反映了企业文化。

And he thought that was somehow reflective of culture.

这想法真聪明。

Well, that's clever.

但确实，我知道人们总是把自己投射到这部剧里。

But, yeah, I know people project themselves into the show all the time.

我认为这部剧，尤其是在第一季中，很好地捕捉到了交易大厅的氛围。

I think the show did a pretty good job of especially in the first season of capturing just what the atmosphere of a trading floor was like.

你知道的。

You know?

我们确实很自豪，努力让剧中使用的行话和人们交谈的语调尽可能贴近现实。

And I we we did pride ourselves on trying to get the jargon and the cadence of the way people speak to each other as close to reality as possible.

实际上，深入一点说，你有没有听说过任何细节——无论是大是小——让金融行业的人对剧中 portrayal 感到不满？

Actually digging into that a bit more, have there been any tiny or big details that you're aware of where people who work in finance weren't happy about how things were portrayed?

当然有。

Absolutely.

当然有。

Absolutely.

第一季时，我收到过一位资产管理公司代理发来的愤怒邮件，不过实际上，那封邮件并不算生气。

I got quite an angry email from my agent from, someone at asset management company in season one, and that was a really well, actually, it wasn't an angry email.

更像是在问：你们为什么提到我们？

It was kind of like, why did you mention us email?

而且这根本不是什么贬低的提及。

And it wasn't even a disparaging mention.

这只是一个简单的提及。

It was just a mention.

我认为人们不喜欢在这样的电视剧中看到自己或自己的机构，哪怕只是被中立地讨论。

I don't think people like to see themselves or, like, their institutions, you know, even discussed in a neutral sense on a TV show like this.

有一位非常顶尖的银行家，当时和我一起参加婚礼，他说剧集播出时，他试图打电话给那家公司的全球总裁，问我们怎么才能让这剧下架。

There was a very, very, very high powered banker who was at a wedding with me who said that when it came out, he tried to call the Global Age of the Head of the Company and said, how do we get this off the air?

所以，这算是一种相当令人欣慰的事。

So that was a kind of, like, quite gratifying thing.

我们曾接触过一些非常著名的对冲基金经理，比如世界级的，有一位请我们吃饭，他说当哈珀在2004年1月交易那个东西——电缆错误时，他坐在那儿拿着笔和纸。

We've had some very famous hedge fund managers, like world famous, one took us for dinner and he was like, I sat there with a pen and paper when Harper was trading that thing in 01/2004, the cable mistake.

我当时在琢磨那些数学计算有没有出错，结果发现数学完全正确。

And I was like trying to figure out whether the maths was checked out and, like, the maths was perfect.

所以我们对此感到非常满意。

So we were, like, we were pretty happy about that.

正如米凯拉所说，我觉得你们做得非常好，尤其是交易大厅里的手势，你们从不向观众解释这些手势的含义，但观众能从剧情中自然地理解。

To Michela's point, I think you guys do a I love, especially, the hand signals on the trading floor that you never really hold the the audience's hand about what that means, but you just kind of, like, intuit from what's happening in the show.

我敢肯定，过去五十年里没人真的用手势进行过交易，但对我们来说，这很有电影感，很酷，所以我们就这么做了。

I'm pretty sure no one's made a hand trade a single or trading for for about fifty years, but it just to us, it was cinematic and cool, so we just did it.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我认为这确实为节目的氛围增添了不少东西。

I think it definitely adds something to the feeling of the show.

特别是在第四季，有一些很有趣的情节，比如那些熟悉这个行业的人会发现，这些决策本身就很有意思，比如第四季中淡马锡收购皮尔庞特。

Especially in in season four, there's just some interesting points that, you know, someone who follows the industry that they're just kind of interesting decisions, like, even something like Temasek buying Pierpoint in season four.

你根本不会想到淡马锡会去收购一家投资银行。

That's not something you would think of, like, Temasek buying an investment bag.

对。

Yeah.

你是怎么看待那些悄悄融入剧中的细微细节的呢？

How do you think about just those tiny details, I guess, that make their way into the show?

我们有非常棒的顾问。

We have really good consultants.

我想这么说。

I would say that.

我的意思是，这部剧实际上源于我们曾在交易大厅和投资银行工作的经历。

I mean, like, this show was kind of born out of our experience on, trading floor and in an investment bank.

这让我们能够把握语言的节奏、人与人之间的互动方式，以及被这个行业吸引来的各种性格特征。

You know, that allowed us to write of the cadence to language and how people treated one another and the kind of personalities that were attracted to this industry.

但对于一些更专业的细节，我们确实非常依赖高水平的顾问。

But we really rely on, like, really good consultants, really kind of high level consultants for some of the more detailed stuff.

因为显而易见，我和康拉德都已经离开银行业十五年左右了。

Because, obviously, know, me and Konrad, we've been out of banking for, like, a good a good fifteen years now.

是的。

Yeah.

你们是怎么保持对当今金融动态的了解的？

How are you guys staying in touch with what finance is like today?

我更具体的问题是，你们多久读一次《金融时报》？

And I guess my more specific question is how often are you reading the FT?

我每天都读，因为健身房里有，我会带到桑拿房里看，因为要么看这个，要么看《纽约时报》，我觉得我更喜欢《金融时报》。

I read it every day because they have it in in my gym, and I take it into the sauna and read it because it's either that or the New York Times, and I I think I prefer the FT.

纸质版。

The printed paper.

纸质版，我会带到桑拿房里看。

The printed paper, I take it into the sauna.

是的。

Yeah.

这太八十年代华尔街了。

That's extremely nineteen eighties Wall Street.

它有个非常出色的头版。

It's a great it's got a really good front page.

而且，它也完全是中立的。

And, also, it's just like it's totally nonpartisan.

你知道，它直接切入了事情的本质，而不是报纸想让你相信的内容，这一点我很欣赏。

And, you know, I and it's kind of just cuts right to the core of actually what's happening rather than what the paper wants you to think, which I kind of appreciate.

是的。

Yeah.

谢谢。

Well, thank you.

我们会全盘接受这些赞美。

We will take all those compliments.

对。

Yeah.

我想我们一直很好奇，这个问题有点自我相关，来自《金融时报》——我们的一位作家汉娜·墨菲，我们加州的科技记者，在第四季中出现了。

I guess we were wondering this is a slightly self involved question from the FT, but one of our writers names made an appearance in season four, Hannah Murphy, one of our tech reporters out in California.

我们想知道你们是否知道这件事，还是只是巧合？

We were wondering if you guys knew about that or or was it a coincidence?

不。

No.

不。

No.

她和我们上同一所大学

She was at university with

我们。

us.

太神奇了。

Amazing.

她是其中一位编剧的好朋友。

She's a very good friend of one of the writers.

虽然回应的声音不是她的，我觉得她觉得这挺有趣的，但她给我发了一封很友好的邮件，说这真是个惊喜。

Although, it's not her voice that responds, which she I think she had found quite funny, but she sent me a nice email being like, that was a surprise.

这太好了。

That's great.

你们之前稍微提到过，如果说第一季像一面镜子，那么现在它更像一面哈哈镜。

You guys mentioned this a little bit earlier, that, you know, maybe if season one was a mirror, now it's more of a fun house mirror.

你们对金融行业怎么看？

What is your all's view on the finance industry?

它是好的、坏的、不必要的，还是邪恶的？

Is it good, bad, unnecessary, evil?

这可能是个有点无聊的答案，尤其是因为我们正在播客里讨论这些话题。

It's maybe a bit of a boring answer, especially because we're on on a podcast having a conversation about this stuff.

但我觉得我和米基在剧里从未做过道德评判。

But I feel like me and Mickey have never moralized in the show.

我们从未希望它变得说教。

We've never wanted it to be didactic.

我们很少进行长篇大论。

We very rarely speechify.

如果我们真的说了长篇大论，就会让剧中某个人物提出完全相反的观点，或者加以削弱、制造反讽，或者用影像手法颠覆观众的预期。

And if we do speechify, we put someone in the scene who gives the exact counterpoint to the speech, or we undercut it, or we make it ironic, or the filmmaking does something to subvert the expectation.

你知道，埃里克发表了一番激昂的演讲，却只换来一封冷淡的邮件，随后他的世界就被剥夺了。

You know, Eric gives this rabble rousing speech, is met with a kind of cold email, and then his world is taken away from him.

我们并不真的相信这部剧的道德寓意是那种可以轻易说清楚的东西。

Like, we don't really believe in the moral messaging of the show being something that's easily spelled out.

我们喜欢把各种不同的意识形态放在同一个盘子里，端出来，让它们彼此竞争。

We like to put all of these different ideologies on a plate, serve them up, let them compete with each other.

我的意思是，如果你看了四季的剧集，就像米基之前说的，我们试图捕捉生活在这样一个世界中的感觉。

I mean, I think if you watch, you know, if you watch four seasons of the show, as Mickey said earlier, we try to capture a feeling of what it's like to live in the world.

我认为，这隐含地批判了某种性格类型在特定系统中所付出的代价，以及这些系统中的激励机制和奖励机制是如何运作的。

And I think there's a very implicit critique of the price of a certain type of personality being exposed to a certain type of system and how incentive structures and reward structures work in those systems.

我觉得这种批判是隐含的，而且几乎无法忽视，但若要明确点出来，反而会削弱数小时电视剧和大量作品构建所蕴含的意义。

I think that's kind of implied and like, it's very hard to miss, but I think to, like, spell it out would almost reduce the meaning of loads of hours of TV and loads of hours of construction of the work.

我也在想，这部剧在某种程度上既是对进入这个行业的一种警示，同时在某种程度上也是一种宣传。

I wonder as well the extent to which, you know, the show in some ways is both a kind of cautionary tale of going into the industry and also in some ways a kind of advertisement for it.

我想到了流行文化中其他一些备受瞩目的金融和华尔街的描绘。

And I think of like other pretty high profile representations in popular culture of finance and Wall Street.

你有像电影《华尔街》和迈克尔·刘易斯的《说谎者的扑克牌》这样的作品。

You've got the like the movie Wall Street and, you know, Michael Lewis's Liar's Poker.

在这两个例子中，这些作品的创作者——奥利弗·斯通拍了《华尔街》，迈克尔·刘易斯写了《说谎者的扑克牌》——他们都觉得人们误解了他们原本想传达的信息，而他们原本的意图是强烈的警示，结果人们却把这当成投身这个行业的动力。

And in both of those instances, the authors of those projects, you know, Oliver Stone with Wall Street and and Michael Lewis with with Liars Poker, they both feel like, you know, people took the opposite message that they were trying to send, which again was very much on the cautionary tale side and people said that it was an inspiration for them to go into the industry.

我觉得这很有趣。

I I think, it's interesting.

这是个非常好的观点。

It's a really good point.

实际上，当我们构思这部剧时，我们最初访谈过一些想加入第一季编剧团队的人，他们希望我们能给出一些更明确的答案，告诉我们对这个行业的真实看法。

I actually think when we were conceiving of the show, I think people we actually interviewed to be in the first writers room wanted some easier answers about how we felt about the industry.

记得我们最早访谈过一个人，他问：‘为什么这不是一部彻底揭露这个行业罪恶的作品？’

Remember I someone that we interviewed first said, why is this not this sort of, like, out and out takedown of this business?

我们回答说，因为首先，我们自己就曾在这个行业工作过。

And we said, well, because, you know, firstly, we've worked in this.

我们明白，这个行业里并非每个人都是彻底的反社会者，他们的行为背后可能有着历史和深层的背景。

We understand that not everyone in this business is a complete sociopath, and they might be behaving with the sort of way of history and a hinterland behind them.

我们感兴趣的是探索是什么促使人们走向这个行业。

And we're interested in exploring what pushes someone towards this business.

其次，我觉得单纯播放一段关于金融有多糟糕的公益广告并没有什么意思。

And then secondly, I just think it's not very interesting to watch the sort of public service announcement about how bad finance is.

这太肤浅了。

It's just not nuanced.

这感觉不像我和康拉德会想写的东西。

It doesn't feel like something that me and Konrad would like to write.

你说得对，这个圈子里说的话确实会变成行业手册或招聘工具。

I think you're totally right there about things said in this world becoming handbooks or recruitment instruments for the business.

我的意思是，我至今仍会收到人们的领英消息，说你们的剧让我进入了金融行业，我觉得这非常有意思。

I mean, I still get LinkedIn messages from people saying, your show got me to finance, which I find really interesting.

但这部作品引人入胜的第一幕至关重要，因为你需要吸引人们进入这个世界，让他们愿意留下来。

But, like, the seductive first act of the piece is really important because you need to draw the people into the world and make them wanna stay there.

到了第三幕，你再揭示出这件事其实并不值得推崇，或许剧中人物追求的东西本身就是错的，同时你也展现了其中的代价。

And then in the third act, you show actually how this thing is not edifying, and actually maybe the characters within that have been pursuing the wrong thing, and then you're showing the cost as well.

我的意思是，所有以这个世界的背景为题材的电影，无论是《华尔街》还是其他作品，通常都有一个第三幕，用来反转第一幕那种诱惑感和绚丽色彩。

I mean, like, every single film set in this world, whether it's Wall Street, everything has a it's kind of a third act that reverses the sort of seduction and sort of pops of color in the first.

实际上，金融圈的兄弟和网络迷因文化的人，很少能看到第三幕。

And, actually, you know, finance bros and meme culture, they very rarely see the third act.

他们只关注第一幕。

They just sort of focus on the first act.

他们看到的都是那些排场、考究的西装、领带和发型。

They see actually all the, you know, the pomp of it and the good suits and the good ties and the good haircuts.

他们心想，哇塞。

They think, wow.

我真的想成为那样的人。

I really wanna do that.

所以在第四季中，我们更多地了解了记者詹姆斯·迪克尔以及他在这家金融博客工作、调查Tinder的经历。

So in season four, we do learn a lot more about the journalist James Dijkor and his character working at this finance blog, investigating Tinder.

你为什么认为这一季的故事中加入新闻调查的视角很重要？

Why did you think it was important to have that journalistic angle in this season's story?

正如米奇提到的悬疑惊悚片，一部出色的悬疑惊悚片总是包含新闻调查的元素，以及一种类似脚踏实地的侦探程序感。

To Mickey's point about a conspiracy thriller, a great conspiracy thriller always has a journalistic element, and it always has a sort of procedural shoe leather detective element.

对我们来说，哈珀运营一个空头基金之所以酷，是因为它感觉像一场调查，只不过赌注是金融性的。

And, like, for us, what was cool about Harper running a short only fund is it felt like an investigation, but with financial stakes.

我们希望给她一个盟友，让这个人自然地引导她发现这个做空的念头，而且要在时机尚早时介入，从而为故事赋予分量和一段完整的旅程。

And we wanted to give her a kind of ally, someone to be very constructed for her to stumble upon this idea of this short herself in a position when it was still early enough to give the story stakes and give it a bit of a journey.

因此，戴卡的加入对我们这个宇宙来说，是设定故事张力的非常自然的选择。

So Daika felt like a really natural addition to our universe in terms of setting up the story stakes.

而且，老实说，这部剧已经进入第四季了。

And we just like to be honest, the show's in its, you know, its fourth season.

对我们而言，再次拓宽故事的范围，感觉是顺理成章的做法。

To us, again, widening the scope of the story just felt like the natural place to do it.

而我们之前谈到的资本主义封闭反馈循环，由新闻视角来呈现显得非常自然。

And that ecosystem, that closed feedback loop of capitalism we were talking about, it felt very organic to have a journalistic angle.

第三季和第四季也花了更多时间展现英国的贵族阶层，这对美国观众来说非常有趣，让我们得以一窥现代社会中贵族阶层的真实运作方式，而不是像看《王冠》那样的剧集。

Season three and four also does spend a lot more time with kind of the nobility class in The UK, which is super interesting as an American viewer getting a peek into how that works, you know, in modern day as opposed to maybe watching The Crown or something like that.

但它们被视为重要的守门人。

But they're seen as these important gatekeepers.

这有多现实？

How realistic is that?

我觉得，嗯，相当现实。

I think, you know, pretty realistic.

就像，英国的一个不争事实是，阶级体系根深蒂固得惊人。

Like, it's a truism about Britain that the class system is, like, insanely entrenched.

也许在2026年，我们很容易忘记这一点，但它只是更好地隐藏了自己。

And maybe in 2026, it's sort of easy to forget that, but it's sort of better at hiding itself.

但就守门机制以及私立学校在本国儿童教育中的作用，以及这些机构通往更大机构（无论是银行还是政治顶层）的路径而言，这一切的根深蒂固程度和一百年前几乎没什么两样。

But in terms of the way the gatekeeping and the role of private schools play in the education of children in this country and the pipeline of of those institutions to the bigger institutions, whether it be banks or whether it be at the top of our political class, that stuff is as entrenched as it was a kinda hundred years ago.

懂吗？

Know?

这方面一点都没变。

Nothing has changed about that.

我认为在我们的呈现中，显然它带有一些虚构成分，但最明显的一点是亨利·马克、基特、哈灵顿这个角色——一个生来就出身显赫、在物质上应有尽有、理所当然地认为自己会继承世界，却可能缺乏自省能力或才智，最终却一路‘失败式晋升’的人。

I think in our rendering of it, like, obviously, it's slightly fictionalized, but I think the most obvious side of it is the Henry Muck, Kit, Harrington character and the idea of a guy who is born to a very high station, has everything materially given to him on some regard, expects to inherit the world, and maybe doesn't have the intellect or capacity to see his own failings, and then kind of fails upwards.

我的意思是，这种故事古已有之，至今依然存在。

I mean, that's a story as old as time and one that still sort of exists.

你只要看看过去十五到二十年英国保守党的情况，就能看到到处都是这样的人。

You only need to look at the last fifteen, twenty years of the Conservative Party in this country to see people like that all over it.

我认为这恰恰揭示了你曾想称之为贵族阶层的某种真实本质。

I think that feels like a kind of true insight into I think you wanted to call it the aristocracy.

但是，米克，你对这一点还有什么看法？

But, Mick, what what else do you think about that?

我的意思是

I mean

我认为我们生活在一个从四岁起就存在明确权力通道的国家，我们至今仍保留着世袭贵族在上议院任职，这意味着我们的立法机构中，有那些生来就拥有权力的人。

Well, I think that's we live in a country where there's, like, a very clear pipeline to power from the age of about four, we still have a, you know, hereditary peers live in the house of lord, which means we have people who have been born to power at our actual legislators in our upper house of government.

这种现象在美国是根本不存在的。

That's just stuff that doesn't exist in The US.

我们有一个由贵族掌控的媒体环境。

We have a, you know, a media landscape which is controlled by aristocrats.

所以，是的，我的意思是，这毕竟不是十八世纪，但这个国家权力走廊中确实有一种贵族气息，这不过是千年延续下来的一种体制的产物，而我们至今仍生活其中。

So, yeah, I mean, look, it's not the eighteenth century, but there is definitely a kind of aristocratic sheen to the corridors of power in this country, which is just the product of a thousand years of a sort of fuel system, which we are still living in.

‘加入俱乐部’的心态，依然深刻影响着这个国家权力运作的幕后本质。我们在第三季到第四季中所展现的一些内容，如果人们能亲眼看到权力实际是如何被随意、平庸地传递的，以及这个国家究竟是如何被治理的，一定会感到震惊。

The join the club mentality is, like, still very much the behind closed doors nature of how power works in the country and some of the stuff that we did in season three going into season four is still very much I think if you were to see the kind of casualness and banality of the way power is actually transferred and the way this country is actually governed, it would be quite shocking to people.

好的。

Okay.

我们有几个问题，会快问快答一下。

We have a couple of questions, bit of a rapid fire.

乔什，你来回答这些问题吗？

Josh, you wanna take these?

我们有一位同事，亨利·曼斯，在第二季中客串了两次，我想实际上是两次。

We had one of our colleagues, Henry Mance had a cameo two cameos, I think, actually, in in season two.

你在第四季中请了帕特里克·拉登·基夫。

You had Patrick Radden Keefe, in season four.

只是想知道你们有没有其他想邀请的客串人选，比如金融界的人物，像杰米·戴蒙或者比尔·阿克曼会不会出现在剧里？

Just wondering if you have any other cameo appearances on your wish list and, you know, any of them figures in finance, you know, Jamie Dimon or Bill Ackman appearance in the show?

我本来想说比尔·阿克曼。

I was gonna say Bill Ackman.

他不是

Don't He's

在你们的邀请名单上，还是他主动要求出演？

on your wish list or or he's asked to be on?

我本来想说，这挺有趣的，因为我们都开玩笑说，《明星伙伴》里有汤姆·布雷迪和勒布朗·詹姆斯，而我们却请来了伦敦金属交易所的主席，K.K.埃文斯。

I was gonna it's funny because we we joked about the fact that, like, Entourage had, like, Tom Brady and LeBron James, and we have the chairwoman of the London Metals Exchange, KK Evans.

这就是我们客串嘉宾的全部水平了。

That's the sort of the the extent of our cameos.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我的意思是，康拉德，其实已经有人主动联系过我们了。

I mean, Konrad, there's only I mean, there's people that have reached out to us.

安蒂·斯卡拉穆奇已经成为我的朋友，我们本来想让他出演这部剧，但时间上没协调好。

Antti Scaramucci has become a friend of mine who, we wanted to get in the show, and we couldn't make the dates work.

但说实话，这中间需要权衡。

But, yeah, I mean, there's a balancing act.

对吧？

Right?

因为如果你把大型金融界人士放进来，这部剧就有点像在为金融界做招聘工具，而不是一个客观的记录者。

Because if you put big finance people in it, it kind of starts looking like we are, again, a recruitment tool for the finance community rather than a kind of objective chronicler.

这个观点完全合理。

Totally a fair point there.

我很好奇，还有另一个。

And I'm curious, so if you another one.

如果你要创办一家对冲基金，你会从演员中选谁当你的首席投资官和合规主管？

If you were starting a hedge fund, industry hedge fund, who would you pick from the cast to be your chief investment officer and your head of compliance?

天啊。

Oh god.

我的意思是，我真想做内幕交易吗？

I mean, do I wanna make do do I wanna do insider trading?

哈珀？

Harper?

我觉得可能是哈珀。

I think probably Harper.

她是目前为止真正赚到钱的唯一一个人。

She's the only one that's actually, you know, sort of made money at this point.

是的。

Yeah.

道德上有争议。

Dubious ethics.

但没错。

But yes.

你觉得她肯定会不择手段地去创造超额收益。

And you feel like, you know, she definitely will try to, you know, do whatever it takes to generate the alpha.