迷恋：与Brandy Wyant探讨浪漫痴迷的心理学

大家好，欢迎收听《Being Well》。我是Forrest Hanson。如果你是第一次收听我们的播客，感谢你今天加入我们。如果你之前听过，欢迎回来。今天，我们要讨论的是‘痴迷型爱恋’（limerence）。

Hello, and welcome to Being Well. I'm Forrest Hanson. If you're new to the podcast, thanks for joining us today. And if you've listened before, welcome back. Today, we're talking about limerence.

这是一种强烈、非自愿且通常单方面的浪漫痴迷。过去几年里，痴迷型爱恋在网上成为了极其热门的话题。但无论出于何种原因，尽管它如此流行，却没有一个正式的定义。关于这个话题的专家非常少，相关论文和研究也寥寥无几。正因如此，当我决定要做一期相关节目时，我很难找到合适的访谈对象。

It's a form of intense, involuntary, and usually one-sided romantic obsession. And over the last few years, limerence has become an incredibly popular topic online. But for whatever reason, for all of its popularity, there is no formal definition of limerence. There are very few experts on the topic, and there are only a handful of papers and studies that have been written on it. And because of this, when I knew I wanted to do an episode on the topic, I had a difficult time finding the right person to talk to.

这也是为什么我非常高兴能邀请到今天的嘉宾——持证临床社会工作者兼治疗师Brandi Wyant。Brandi，感谢你今天加入我们。

And that's part of why I'm so excited to be joined by today's guest, licensed clinical social worker and therapist, Brandi Wyant. So, Brandi, thanks for joining me today.

非常感谢你，Forrest。能来到这里我非常兴奋。同时也感谢你关注这个话题。我知道在我的线上社群中，很多同行都在热烈讨论，渴望更多相关内容。所以，是的，我真的很高兴。

Thank you so much, Forrest. I'm very excited to be here. Thank you so much also for bringing attention to this topic. I know a lot of my colleagues are talking about it a lot in the online communities I'm part of with eager for more content. So, yeah, I'm really I'm really glad.

是的。很高兴这个话题得到关注。

Yeah. Glad for the visibility.

噢，谢谢。是的。我真的很感激。你撰写的论文是我能找到的极少数关于痴迷型爱恋的期刊文章之一。

Oh, thank you. Yeah. No. I really appreciate that. And you wrote one of the very few journal papers that I was able to bump into on limerence.

论文标题是《运用认知行为疗法治疗痴迷型爱恋：一项案例研究》。剧透一下——你就是这个案例研究中的研究对象，不过我们稍后再详谈这一点。

It was titled treatment of limerence using a cognitive behavioral approach, a case study. Spoiler. You were the case in this case study, but we'll talk about that a little bit later.

没错。

That's right.

你在几年前将其发表在《患者体验杂志》上。我认为你会是位出色的嘉宾，因为你既是临床医师，又亲身经历过痴迷型爱恋，能同时带来这两种视角。或许我们可以从定义开始——什么是痴迷型爱恋？我在开场白中简单提过，但你的解释肯定比我更专业。

And you published it, and I think it was the journal of patient Experience a few years back. And I thought that you'd be a great guest here because you are both a clinician and somebody who's experienced limerence yourself. So you're bringing kinda both of those perspectives to the table. So maybe we start with what's limerence? I gave kind of a little definition of it in the intro, but you could probably do this a better than me.

嗯，我不确定。我想这正是我们在此探讨的原因。你知道，学界对此存在分歧，有些学者和研究者并不认为痴迷型爱恋与浪漫爱情有本质区别。我个人认为，最终我们可能需要不止一个术语来描述这种现象。

Well, I don't know. I think that's part of why we're here. You know? And I think there's some some disagreement, and I know there's some academics and researchers who would disagree that there is a distinction between limerence and romantic love. I I think that ultimately we may end up with more than one term to describe this.

我认为人们使用‘limerence’（痴迷式爱恋）这个词来泛指广泛的爱、依恋、迷恋等情感，最终我们可能需要更精确的定义。我从克里斯·多萝西·特内尔七十年代出版的《爱与痴迷》原著中提炼出的理解是：痴迷式爱恋表现为对另一个人产生强迫性思维，对其怀有执着的兴趣。你可以称之为依恋，也可以称之为爱，或者都不是。但核心是强迫性思维——这个人总在你脑海中挥之不去，这种状态是非自愿的，你可能并不想要这样。

I think people are using the term limerence to refer to a broad spectrum of feelings of love, attachment, infatuation, and we may end up needing to get more specific. And what I have drawn from there was a Chris Dorothy Tenel's original book, Love and Limerence, came out in the seventies. I would say that limerence is experiencing obsessive thoughts about another person, having an obsessive interest in them. You might call it an attachment, you might call it love, you might not. But it's obsessive thoughts, this person's on your mind all the time, it's involuntary, you might not want it.

你希望这种状态消失，它困扰着你，让你无法专注于其他事情，可能还会对现有关系造成影响。伴随着这种执着兴趣的，往往是试图接近对方或揣测对方心意的行为。因为关键在于——你已经将这个人理想化了。按照我这里的定义，他们并非你现实中交往的对象。

You want it to go away, it's bothering you, you can't focus on other things, it's causing other consequences maybe for relationships. And along with sort of that obsessive interest, sometimes there's behavior is intended to try to either get closer to the person or to try to figure out how they feel about you. Because then this is kinda key. You've sort of idealized this person. They're not someone you're in a relationship with, at least in the definition I'm using here.

这是你带着些许距离仰慕的人，你眼中的他们已被神化到迫切想知道对方是否同样喜欢你，是否回应你的好感。正是这种不确定性在驱动着整个状态。

There's someone you're admiring a little bit from afar, and you see them, you you really have idolized them to the point you wanna know if they like you back or had told you in the same regard if they reciprocate the positive regard you have for them. And that uncertainty is what's driving it.

这种不确定性确实是关键所在，也是你在论文中着重强调的。让我快速引用一句令我印象深刻的话：‘不确定性是痴迷式爱恋形成和持续的核心驱动力’。这也将其与强迫症等状态区分开来——你在论文中精彩地指出：对于强迫症患者，不确定性是敌人，人们通过仪式行为来消除不确定性；而对于痴迷式爱恋，不确定性本身就是意义所在。若真与这个人确立关系，所有理想化幻想很可能瞬间崩塌，因为你不得不面对现实。

That uncertainty aspect, I think, is is a big part of it, and it's one of the things that you really emphasized in the paper. One of the lines that really stuck out to me, I'll actually just grab this real quick because, yeah, uncertainty is the driving force behind the development and maintenance of limerence. And this is another one of the things that kinda distinguishes it from other things like OCD, and I love how you kinda did this little distinction in the paper as well, where you talked about how OCD in OCD, kind of uncertainty is the enemy. You're trying to avoid uncertainty through the usage of these different different rituals or processes that you go through, but in limerence, uncertainty is kind of the whole point. If you actually landed in a relationship with this person, all of that idealization could easily just sort of fall away because you're stuck with the reality of whatever's going on.

完全正确。这正是特内尔原著中提出的痴迷式爱恋终结的三种方式之一——获得情感回应。到那时，你大可直接称之为爱情，我们不需要另造术语。

Exactly. And that's, I think, one of the three ways that Tanove in her original work had said limerence ends. It's by having feelings reciprocated. At that point, you might just call it love. I don't know that we need another term.

所以争议一直存在。但作为治疗师，我们看到的行为模式非常明确：这种状态针对的是那些情感回应不确定或不可及的对象。如你所说这是驱动力，但我要补充——我同意痴迷式爱恋与强迫症存在区别。

So that's been a little bit of the of the controversy. But I think coming to it as a therapist, what we see behaviorally is very distinct. It's for someone whose ability to reciprocate interest is uncertain or unavailable. So as you said, that's the driving force. But I would add, there I I agree there's a distinction between limerence and OCD.

尽管痴迷式爱恋也伴随强烈焦虑，你并非安于这种维持着痴恋状态的不确定性。你心中有个终极目标——获得那个人的亲近与认可，所以你在积极追求着什么。

Though I think even with limerence, you're still dealing with a lot of anxiety. You're not necessarily happy with that uncertainty that you're sitting in. That is maintaining the limerence. But there's this end goal in mind of sort of achieving that closeness and validation from that person. So you're you're striving for something.

没人想长期停留在痴恋状态。但与强迫症不同——强迫症滋生于怀疑，而痴迷式爱恋，我认为，滋养于希望。你抱着终有一天对方会像你看待他们那样看待你的希望。

You don't really necessarily wanna remain in a limerence state. But it it is true. I think with OCD, you're thriving on a a doubt. Limerence, I would argue, you're thriving on hope. You're thriving on the hope that someday they will see you just as you see them.

这个表述非常精妙。可能有听众会问：这和强烈暗恋有什么区别？既然你亲身经历过痴迷式爱恋，能否说明...

It's a really nice way of putting it. And I could imagine somebody listening to this right now and going, hey. How is this different from just having a really intense crush on another person? So you've experienced limerence yourself. What's it actually Well,

它确实不同于暗恋。容我补充——因为这两种体验我都有过

it is distinct from a crush. I'll just add, because I've had both

感觉不一样吗？

Feels different?

感觉确实不同。我曾同时为两个不同的人经历过这两种状态。迷恋（crush）本身就暗示着一种兴趣，当然，如果是单相思可能会很痛苦。但我认为迷恋更多是指向一种可能性——对方或许是可触及的。

Feels different. I've had both at the same time for two different people. A crush kind of implies of course, crush can be painful if it's unrequited. But I think a crush is kind of implying an interest. The person may be available.

这是个关键区别。痴迷（limerence）中，这个人很可能遥不可及，你们之间存在关系障碍。而迷恋，或许会成为一段关系的开端，也可能不会，明白吗？

That's kind of a key distinction. Limerence, this person is probably not avail there's a barrier to the two of you really being in a a relationship together. Crush, I mean, maybe that is gonna be the start of a relationship. Maybe not. You know?

但迷恋似乎带有更轻松的特质。按照我对痴迷的定义——重申下我并非权威，学界也存在分歧——我认为其严重程度接近临床治疗水平，就像治疗焦虑症、强迫症、恐惧症或惊恐障碍时看到的那样。患者会完全无法正常生活。

But it it seems to have sort of a a lighter quality to it. I think the way I'm defining limerence here, and again, I'm not the final authority, and there is some disagreement. I think we are approaching clinical level of impairment that I would see when I'm treating someone for an anxiety disorder such as OCD, phobias, panic attacks, etcetera. It's they're they're not getting things done. You know?

他们在承受痛苦：情绪剧烈波动，无法工作，不停地谈论/想着那个人，疯狂寻找对方踪迹，反复查看照片，不断琢磨'那次对话TA到底怎么想的'，在脑海里重播每个细节。

They're suffering. They're having a bunch of mood swings, not able to do their work, can't stop talking about this person, can't stop thinking about them. It's seeking them out, looking at pictures of them, wondering, oh, I had this conversation with them. What did they think about it? Constant replaying the conversation in the mind.

这已经达到临床诊断标准，属于显著病理状态。

It's reached a level it it's a diagnostic. It's a clinically significant level.

能否量化一下？根据你自身或来访者的经历，这种状态会占据多少思考时间？对生活的侵蚀程度有多严重？

Maybe to get a sense of the scale here, when you were experiencing this or maybe more, you know, other people you've worked with, you've experienced this, how much time is being eaten up thinking about this person? Like, how big a a chunk of your life is this?

因人而异。有些人可以掩饰，但常伴随强烈羞耻感。即便在做其他事时，那个人也永远在潜意识里——真正不想念的时刻极其罕见。

I think it depends. I think you can kinda hide it and mask it, and there is a lot of shame around that, I think, a lot of the time too. There but they're on your mind. It's it's all the time in the background. There's very rarely a moment they're not there.

你可能表面正常活动，但TA始终在你思维后台。所以可以说是持续或接近持续的状态，不过每个人的具体体验会有差异。

You might be able to do other things while you're they're still in the background. So I would say it can it can be constant or near constant. I think though that everyone's experience is a little bit different.

关于痴迷，学界通常划分为四个阶段。能否讲解下这些阶段？这样经历者可以更清楚自己处于哪个进程。

Limerence tends to be laid out in these kinds of stages that people have for it. I think there are four stages. Could you maybe go through some of the stages here so that people can get a better understanding if if they're experiencing this kind of thing, where they're at in this process?

是的。我想我不会——我不一定想引用那些阶段，因为那不是我的理论。我觉得当然。嗯。我最近确实读过一篇范围综述，说是有五个阶段，我想说是这样。

Yeah. I think I wouldn't I don't necessarily wanna quote the stages because they're not my theory. I think Sure. Yeah. I did read a recent scoping review that said there were five, I wanna say.

我得承认，我不记得具体是哪五个了。因为我认为每个人的表现都不同。这有点像广为人知的悲伤五阶段理论。我们现在知道不是每个人都会经历所有阶段，顺序和表现也不尽相同。所以我认为痴迷症（Limerence）也是如此。

I have to admit, I don't remember what they were. Because I think it does look different for everyone. I think it's similar to kind of the popularized five stages of grief. We know now not everyone goes through them all and not in the same order or look the same way. So I think that's true of Limerence too.

不过我要这么说：它最有可能在你初次遇见痴迷对象（书面常缩写为LO）后不久首次发作。无论是现实中结识这个人，还是远距离观察——甚至是对电视上的名人，只要你对TA有所了解。出于某种原因，TA对你而言很特别，而你或许说不出具体原因。就是有种吸引力让你不断靠近。

I I will say this though. I think it is most likely to strike for the first time shortly after you have met the limerence object, or LO as you might see written. So you meet this person or you're observing them from afar, even on TV if it's a celebrity or, you know, you have some knowledge of them. For some reason, they are special to you, and you may not be able to pinpoint why. Something is pulling you toward them.

你注意到TA。开始频繁想起TA。你会觉得'哇TA太棒了'。但对很多人来说，往往存在一个可以明确指认的触发瞬间。

You notice them. You start to think about them more. You start to think, oh, they're great. You know? But there is often a moment that can be pinpointed for a lot of people.

根据我的阅读和亲身经历，有时候是痴迷对象对你表现出的某个具体善举，让TA在你眼中宛如英雄。你想把TA奉上神坛——'是你拯救了我'。这种情愫往往就从那里开始萌芽。

I've read and also experienced that sometimes it's an explicit act of kindness that the limerent object gives to you that makes them appear almost hero like. You wanna put them on a pedestal. Oh, you know, you saved me. And it then that kinda takes off from from there. So that's often I think how it starts.

后续发展则因人而异，取决于你们是否存在真实关系。如果是每天都要接触的同事，情况就完全不同。另外关键点是：即使TA从你生活中消失，这种痴迷仍可能持续。

Then where it goes from there, I think you have a lot of variability. Because it depends on whether this person you have an actual relationship with them or not. It could go either way. If this is a coworker and you're having to interact with them every day, it's gonna look a lot different. So that's the other point I would make is they don't have to be a constant in your life for this to continue.

即便现实中的关系早已结束——比如对方已搬离——这种状态仍可能持续数月甚至数年。关于终结方式，我记得Tennof提出过三种可能：

This can continue for even months to years after any real life relationship has ended. Say they've moved away. It continues anyway. So I think how does it end? I think Tennof said there's there's three ways.

一是得到回应，二是转移新目标，三是希望彻底破灭——你终于接受得不到回应的事实。但个体差异太大，我甚至不愿将其定义为固定阶段。

One, they reciprocate. Two, you get a new limerent object. Or three, I think it was hope is finally gone. You finally accepted that there's no hope of reciprocation. But that doesn't I think it really varies person to person to the point I hesitate to even put it into defined phases.

没错。我觉得你在这里引入不确定性来讨论这个话题很棒。

Yeah. And I think it's great that you are introducing uncertainty here and how we're talking about this.

我是一名暴露疗法治疗师。所以...

I am a am an exposure therapist. So that's

我的选择。给你。完美。完美。这就是生活与艺术的交融。

my choice. There you go. Perfect. Perfect. Life life and art right there.

在我们开始录音前，我们讨论的一个重点就是存在巨大鸿沟——我在开场白中也提到过——尤其是网络上人们的兴趣程度，或者说普通大众对此的关注度。对吧？

So before we started recording, one of the things that we were talking about is how there is this huge gap, and I mentioned it in the introduction, between the amount of interest among people online in particular, but just kinda like people living in the world. Right?

确实。

Sure.

在普通人群和所谓的'严肃心理学机构'之间，可以这么说吧，学术研究几乎空白。据我所知，目前根本没有关于痴迷症治疗的双盲研究，DSM或其他文献里也没有对痴迷症的正式定义。我们完全处于蛮荒地带。但你接触的那些患者...

Between that group of people and the sorta, quote, unquote, serious psychology establishment is maybe a way to put it, like the amount of academic There's essentially, as near as I can tell, there are no double blind studies on treatments for limerence. There's no formal definition that exists in the DSM or something else for limerence. We're in, like, way the Wild West here. But in, like, the people that you work with

嗯。

Yeah.

那些来找你咨询的人，我想向大众传达的是：这是个真实存在的问题。不仅仅是'我对某人强烈心动'这么简单，也不是'单相思而已，看开点'就能解决的。

Around this who have come to see you, part of what I'm trying to communicate to people is how this is a real problem. Mhmm. It's not just, you know, I have a strong crush on towards somebody. It's not, oh, unreciprocated love. They should just just get over it.

这种状态正在某种程度上吞噬他们的生活。你可以随时对我刚才说的任何内容发表看法，毕竟我一下子抛给你这么多信息。

This is something that is, like, eating up their life to an extent. And, feel free to comment on anything that I've said so far because I I kinda gave you a lot to work with there.

是的。我知道。都没问题。我完全同意。其实我发表那个案例研究的初衷，正是因为学界对此完全空白。

Yeah. I know. It's it's all good. I I agree. I think that was my impetus in publishing the case study was there just wasn't anything out there.

我本身有研究背景，当然希望能提供双盲或至少对照研究的数据。但当时没有条件，只能从自身案例入手，所以...

I mean, I come from a research background. I would have loved to have had a blinded or at least controlled study to to offer. I I didn't. I only had myself to start with, so that's where where

我开始了。

I started.

总得有个开始。总得有个开始。但我认为你确实指出了一个重要观点：学术界有一小部分人多年来早已了解‘痴迷型爱恋’这个概念，可以追溯到多萝西·坦诺夫的时代。网上很多人，比如Reddit、维基百科、YouTube等平台的支持小组里，对此有大量讨论。但他们从未与临床医生交流过。

Gotta start somewhere. Gotta start somewhere. But I think you really make a important point in that I think a small corner of academia has known about limerence for years and years and years, going back to Dorothy Tennoff. And I think a lot of people online, on online support groups have a lot to say, you know, on Reddit, on Wikipedia, other places, YouTube. And they just aren't talking to the clinician.

没人去和那些实际治疗来访者的治疗师沟通——当来访者说‘我有痴迷症’时，治疗师会回答‘不知道该怎么帮你，因为我甚至不了解这个病症，更别提治疗了。我没学过这个’。这成了医疗障碍，有些治疗师（包括我自己也曾如此）甚至不愿承认...

No one is talking to the therapists who are actually treating the clients who come to them and say, look, I have limerence. And the therapist says, well, don't know how to help you because I don't even know what that is, much less how to treat it. I don't know what it is. I wasn't taught that in school. And it's a barrier to care because some therapists are reluctant to I even have been myself.

我不愿宣称‘我是治疗痴迷症的专家’。在缺乏证据前没人能这么说。但我们确实需要从某个起点开始，需要提出不同治疗方案。只是我过去非常犹豫说‘我能帮你’这种话。

I'm reluctant to say, oh, I'm an expert in treating limerence. I don't think anyone can be until we have evidence. I think we can certainly, we need to start somewhere. So we need to start proposing different treatment approaches. But I was very hesitant to say, Look, I can help you.

坦白说，我会建议来访者对声称‘我知道如何治愈痴迷症’或‘我能100%治疗你’的人保持警惕——因为相关研究尚未开展，我们缺乏具有统计学意义的患者群体数据。不过我感觉自己有点偏离主题了...

And I would frankly advise clients to be suspicious of someone who's saying, I know how to cure Limerence or I know how to treat you 100% because the studies haven't been done. We don't have a statistically significant patient population to derive from. And, anyway, I sense I'm getting off the beaten path here. But

不，我认为你恰恰紧扣主题，而且我很享受听你谈论这个。现在有两个方向可以展开：我先选择治疗方向，因为多数人可能对此更感兴趣。不过稍后请提醒我，我想请教关于网络社群讨论痴迷症的利弊问题。

No. I I think you're I actually think you are square on the beaten path here, and I'm and I'm enjoying hearing you talk about it. So there are two different places I I could kinda take this. I'm a take it toward the treatment side first because I think that's probably what a lot of people are interested in. But then later, remind me, I wanna ask you a question about online communities talking about limerence and, like, some of the ups and downs of that for people.

这个话题我们稍后再深入。关于治疗，你目前发现哪些方法对患者确实有效？

Maybe we'll get into that a little bit later. With treatment, what have you found that's actually helpful for people here?

好的，首先郑重声明：我是强迫症专家。就像拿着锤子的人看什么都像钉子，我的‘锤子’就是暴露与反应预防疗法，所以我会重点使用这个方法。

Yeah. Well, so huge disclaimer. I am an OCD specialist. So it's kind of like to the person with a hammer, everything's a nail. So my hammer is exposure response prevention, so I'm gonna hammer that with that.

但我确实认为强迫症与痴迷症密切相关，可以说痴迷症是强迫症的表亲。二者有区别，并非同一病症，可能单独存在。

But I do see OCD and limerence as closely related. I would call limerence a cousin of OCD. There are distinctions. They are not the same thing. You can have one but not the other.

但在临床实践中，我发现它们有高度重叠性。再次强调，我还没有确切数据说明发病率...

But in my clinical practice, I've seen huge overlap. Huge overlap. Again, I don't have the numbers to say for sure the incidence

存在强迫性

has an obsessional

确实有这种特质。对，我是说可以争论。比如，这个人有强迫观念和频繁的强迫行为。你可以说他们默认符合，他们符合强迫症的诊断标准。

quality to it. Yeah. I mean, could argue. Like, the person has obsessions and often compulsions. You could argue they meet by default, they meet OCD diagnostic criteria.

他们有强迫观念，有干扰生活的强迫行为。当然存在区别。没错，对的。所以我认为转向我们已知的知识是合理的。

They've got obsessions. They've got compulsions that's interfering with their life. There are distinctions, of course. Sure, yeah. So I think it's reasonable to turn to what we know.

幸运的是，我们确实掌握大量关于如何治疗强迫症的证据。有趣的是，有时人们完全不知道我写过相关论文，他们会突然开始谈论并描述这种情况。他们甚至不知道‘痴迷’这个词，但会开始描述类似现象。然后我会问些问题，比如‘但如果他们回应了你的爱，你可能反而不想和他们在一起了，对吧？’

We do have a lot, thankfully, a lot of evidence on how to treat OCD. What's been interesting is sometimes people will have no idea that I wrote a paper on it, and they'll just start talking and they'll just start describing it. They don't even know the word limerence, but they'll start describing something. And then I'll start asking some questions like, oh, you know, but you might not even wanna be with them if they loved you back. Right?

他们会回答‘是的’。我就说‘哦，但你其他关系都不是这样的。你在其他所有关系中都有安全感’。‘对’。‘即使你尝试过，还是无法停止谈论他们’。

And they're like, yes. I'm like, oh, but all your other relationships aren't like this. You have secure relationships everywhere else. Yes. You can't stop talking about them even though you've tried.

‘是的’。明白吗？最后我会在某个时刻提出‘痴迷’这个概念。有趣的是，人们未必是为此来找我的，但在我的强迫症患者群体中，我们发现这种情况相当普遍。

Yes. You know? And then finally, I bring up limerence at at some point. And it's just been interesting that people haven't necessarily come to me for that, and we've still found it in my kind of OCD client population quite a bit.

无论某人是否患有我们所谓的正式痴迷症（目前甚至不算真正意义上的病症，正如我们讨论的），或者他们只是被某种事物占据心神——某种形式的浪漫兴趣，某个让他们无法停止想念的人。如果我来找你时说‘嘿，布兰迪，我遇到这种情况’，你会如何着手处理这个问题？

Whether somebody has whatever we call formal limerence, which is not even really a thing right now as we've been talking about, or if they just have something that's preoccupying them, a form of romantic interest, a kind of person they can't stop thinking about. If essentially I came to you and said, hey, Brandy, this is happening to me, how would you start approaching this problem?

好的。我会用治疗强迫症的常规方式开始，即解释你正在经历的现象，给你一个能理解的标签。对很多人来说，那是‘强迫思维’或‘侵入性思维’。在这里你可以称之为‘痴迷思维’。单是命名本身——‘为其命名以驯服它’就非常有效。

Yeah. So I would start the same way I start typically with OCD, which is educating about what you're experiencing, giving you a label to call it that makes sense to you. For a lot of people, that's an OCD thought or that's an intrusive thought. Here you could say that's a limerick thought. That alone, you know, the name it to tame it is very real.

当我给人们一个标签时，我见过这对他们意义有多重大——光是知道这是真实存在的、其他人也经历过。‘我这辈子都是这种感觉，却不知如何称呼它’‘我以为只有我这样’。仅这个开端就极具力量，极其强大。即便他们之后不愿做任何行为改变。

And when you've given people a label, I've seen how much that can mean to them just to know this is real and other people experience it. And this is how I felt my whole life and I never knew what to call it. I thought I was alone. And that just to start off with hugely powerful, hugely. Even if they don't wanna do any behavioral change after that.

只要有个标签让他们能自我提醒：当这个念头出现时，‘啊，我认出这是痴迷在说话，我不必照它说的做’。就像强迫症说‘你最好检查下门锁’时，知道‘那是强迫思维’。

Just having something to label it where they can tell themselves, the thought pops in, oh, okay. I recognize that that's Limerence talking. I don't necessarily have to do what that says. Just like if OCD is saying, you know, I better check the door. That's an OCD thought.

让我在回应前先停顿下。所以我的第一步通常是给他们一个感到舒适的标签。不必非得是‘痴迷’这个词——如果他们不喜欢的话，其实我也不太喜欢这个词，但适合他们的就行。然后按照接纳承诺疗法的传统，练习思维解离。

Let me pause before I I respond to that. So that's sort of my first first step is kind of getting them some label that they feel comfortable with. It doesn't have to be limerence if they don't like that word. Kinda not my favorite word either, but, you know, whatever works for them. And then practicing from acceptance and commitment therapy tradition, thought diffusion.

我对很多客户都特别强调这一点，就是观察想法本身。我的客户们，尤其是孩子们，他们超爱Russ Harris那个寿司火车的视频。你搜搜看，寿司火车。他们可喜欢了。所以你的思绪可以像回转寿司一样流转，或是溪流中的落叶、天空中的浮云。

I'm really big on that with a lot of my clients, just observing the thought. My clients, especially the kids, they love the sushi train video that Russ Harris has. Look it up, sushi train. They love it. So your thoughts can be just like the sushi going round, or they can be the leaves in the stream or the clouds in the sky.

我们不必与那个想法纠缠。我们可以退后一步观察它，不必与之对抗，不必试图消除或安抚它。就让它存在就好。所以我们通常从这里开始引导。

We don't have to engage with that thought. We can sit back and observe that thought and don't have to fight with it or try to neutralize it or try to appease it. Can just sit with it. So start we start there usually.

节目稍后继续。现在回到正题。你某种程度上在给自己贴标签。你在说，我产生了这些念头，或我有这些强迫性思维，或者觉得这些想法可能不太现实。

We'll be right back to the show in just a moment. Now back to the show. You're, to some extent, categorizing yourself. You're saying, I'm having these thoughts, or I'm having these obsessional thoughts, or Yeah. Oh, these things are probably not totally realistic.

我认为即便是这样——用这种抽离视角看待任何问题。你知道，我人生中也遇到过挑战，当我能够给自己贴标签的那个瞬间...

And I think that even that, that kind of zooming out with any kind of a problem. You know, I've had my my own challenges in my life where I've been able to have a moment where I kinda label myself

嗯。

Yeah.

把自己归为某一类人或某种经历者。我在播客里经常聊这个，比如我在与人交谈或处理人际关系时的焦虑倾向。就像突然意识到：哦，你有点容易焦虑。这意味着当你参与对话时，你会对某些事感到压力，而这些事对大多数人可能根本不算什么。当然也有其他人会焦虑，但可能没你现在这么严重。

As belonging to a category or having a certain kind of experience. That's something I've talked about on the podcast a lot, you know, having aspects of anxiety in how I approach conversations or how I approach relationships with other people. Just going, oh, you're a little prone to anxiety. And so that means that when you enter a conversation or whatever, you're gonna be a little stressed out about stuff that probably most people wouldn't be so stressed out about. Or, sure, there's some other people who would be stressed about it, maybe not as much as you're stressed about it right now, whatever it is.

于是你有了一个应对体验的认知框架。这算是第一层大循环。对很多人来说，单是意识到这点就意义重大。知道别人也有同样经历，即便痛苦，也是普遍现象。

And and so you you kinda have a frame from which you're approaching the experience. So that's kinda like big circle one. And I think that for a lot of people, that alone is huge. Yeah. Just like knowing that other people experience this thing, it's a normative experience even if it's a painful one.

而且还有应对方法。哇，这作为起点已经很棒了。然后你提到观察念头来去而不执着其中...

And, like, there's stuff that you can do. Wow. That's great for starters. Yeah. Then you were talking about seeing the thoughts as they go by, not getting so attached to them.

我觉得这很棒。我也经历过那种时刻——对某些事或人反复思虑。你能觉察到这些念头，能意识到自己在钻牛角尖，但就是很难抽离。

I think that that's great. I also think that I've had moments in the past where I've been really thinking about something or someone. You know? You can notice the thoughts. You can notice that you're kind of obsessing, and so it's really hard to to not not go there.

所以没错。如果有人来找你说：哇，我正在这样。好吧...

So Yes. If somebody comes to you, they're like, wow. Yeah. I'm doing that. Okay.

更自我觉察了。我注意到了。老兄，这种感觉挥之不去。

More self aware. I'm noticing it. Man, this is sticking around.

这很难

It's hard

摆脱。你通常会怎么做？

to kick. Where you do you kinda go?

所以在这里，我的意思是，再次拿起我的锤子，我们要做一些暴露疗法的工作。

So there, I mean, again, I take up my hammer, and we're gonna do some exposure work.

好的。太棒了。那么具体实践中这意味着什么

Okay. Great. So so what does that mean in practice

是的。对于痴迷症的治疗，可能更多是先进行暴露，然后是反应预防，这两者常被合称为ERP（暴露与反应预防疗法）。对于痴迷症，更侧重反应预防这一端，这意味着观察他们已经在采取哪些接近痴迷对象的行为，并减少、阻止这些反应。当然要在他们知情同意的前提下，限制这些行为。我会让他们先列个清单：你正在通过哪些行为试图获得这个人的亲近或积极关注。

Yeah. For think on with limerence, it's probably more so you have exposure, and then you have response prevention, which are often lumped together as ERP. And with limerence, lean more on the response prevention side of things, which means look at what they're already doing to try to approach this limerant object and reduce those prevent those responses. So restrict the behaviors that they're that they're doing with their, you know, obviously, consent and their buying and all that. So I'd have them maybe take an inventory of what behaviors are you doing to try to achieve, you know, closeness or positive attention from this person.

把它们列出来。然后评估一下，如果要求你停止这些行为，哪些对你来说是高、中、低难度。我们不会要求你一夜之间改变所有事情，这是个循序渐进的过程。但你愿意尝试改变哪些？

And list them out. And then maybe, you know, what's your kinda high, medium, low in terms of difficulty if we ask you to stop it. We're not gonna ask you to change everything overnight. It's gonna be a stepwise process. But what are you willing to try to change?

我喜欢在与客户进行这个过程时保持高度协作。我不喜欢说'看，这是治疗方案，你必须遵守'。作为一个小提示——也可能是个值得后续探讨的话题——我认为对痴迷对象采取'彻底断联'的方式既非必要也非最优解，这个说法可能很有争议。但从暴露疗法的角度来看，我们不会回避引发焦虑的事物，这是我们的原则——不逃避。而这个人是真实存在的。

And I like to be very collaborative when I have that process with clients. I don't like to say, Look, this is the protocol and you have to follow it. And kind of as a sign and maybe a bookmark for later, I don't know that a no contact approach to deliver an object is either necessary or optimal, which is probably a very controversial statement. But I think where I come from, again, from exposure therapy, we don't approach I mean, we don't avoid things that cause us anxiety. That's kind of our guiding You don't avoid things, and this person is real.

所以

So

人为地强行切断联系...我同意你确实不需要整晚反复重读他们的邮件，这绝对是我会列出来建议你戒除的仪式行为之一。但'彻底断联'这种做法，我觉得类似于物质使用障碍治疗中的'完全戒断'——这话题够另开一集播客了——但现在我们知道这并非唯一选择。而且对很多人来说这不切实际，也得不到客户认同。如果告诉客户'你必须和这个痴迷对象彻底断联才能好转'，他们是不会接受的。

to try to artificially cut off I mean, I would agree you probably don't need to be rereading an email from them all night. That would be on my list of rituals for you to work on cutting it back on. But I think the no contact, I kind of equate that to abstinence only and substance use disorder treatment, which is probably a whole other podcast episode, but it's not the only game in town, you know, as we know now doing research in that space. And I think for a lot of people, it's also not practical or you wouldn't have buy in. You wouldn't have buy in from clients that they say, you have to go no contact with this limerine object, and that's how you're gonna get better.

我认为无论外界如何，你都必须管理好自己的行为。世上确实存在潜在的痴恋对象。就像我治疗某人的污染强迫症时，我不会说‘你永远别再洗手了’。你当然会洗，只是不需要洗十次。

I think you have to manage your behavior no matter what the world is doing. There are potential limerent objects out there. Just like I'm treating someone for contamination OCD, I don't say, Well, you'll never wash your hands again. Of course you are. You just don't need to wash them 10 times.

总之，我可以更详细地讨论这点，但历史上常推荐‘断绝联系’的方法，我对此有些保留意见。某些情况下这确实合适，特别是当患者的行为冲动——比如想接近对方交谈——过于强烈时，或许确实需要保持距离。但通过暴露疗法，我们毕竟生活在这个现实世界里。

So anyway, I could talk more in detail about that, but the no contact kind of approach has been historically recommended, and I might push back on that a little bit. It might be appropriate in some cases, certainly, especially if the person's behaviors are so the urge to, like, approach the person and talk to them. It's so overwhelming. Maybe you do need some some space, some distance. But I just think with exposure work, like, we we live in the world.

我们不应为了适应焦虑而创造一个新世界。

We don't create a world to fit our anxiety.

我听过你谈到的另一点是认知重构的形式。比如列出你对那个痴恋对象、甚至对自己或关系本质的常见想法，更好地识别其中可能存在的认知扭曲，然后用不同方式纠正它们。

Another thing that I've heard you talk about is forms of cognitive restructuring. Yeah. You know, like listing out common thoughts that you're having about the person, about the limerent object, or even maybe about yourself, about the nature of relationships. Who knows? And getting a little bit better at identifying some of the distortions that might be there and then trying to correct them in different ways.

能举个具体例子吗？

Could you give an example of this?

当然。但我要先说明，我通常不一定会对强迫症患者用这种方法，因为强迫症患者会说‘我知道这想法不理性，但我就是要反复检查门锁’。所以使用这种疗法需要了解你的来访者。不过对某些人确实很有效——回到你的问题，比如列出‘你其实不愿与这人建立恋爱关系的原因’：如果他们真对你示好，这段关系真的可行吗？

Sure. And I'll give another caveat, which is that I don't typically do that kind of work with OCD necessarily because OCD is gonna say, I know it's irrational. I know the thought's distorted. I don't care. I'm gonna check that the door is locked anyway.

所有潜在问题、过度理想化...

So I think you have to kind of know your client if you're gonna use this approach. But for some clients, I think it could be very helpful and appropriate in the paper to get back to your question. An example might be, let's list out the ways that you really wouldn't want a romantic partnership with this person. Do you real would you really if they really reciprocated an interest in you, would it really work out?

确实。包括他们某些特质可能让你厌烦的地方。你不可能永远理想化对方。

Sure. Yeah. All of the potential problems or issues, the idealization,

他们也是真实的人类。想想那些最终会让你不满的特质。

and stuff They're real human. Think about the ways in which you might be annoyed by some of their traits. It's you're not gonna idealize them forever.

很好的例子。Brandy，我在想，处理痴恋与处理广义上的依恋问题之间有多少重叠性？

Good examples. And I gotta wonder as we're talking about this, Brandy, how much overlap is there between working with limerence and working with attachment issues broadly for people?

是的，是的，不，这是个很好的问题。我认为需要做更多研究。不过我觉得特别有趣的是，与我合作过的许多患有这种特定类型痴迷症（我在这里讨论的，最终我们可能会用另一个术语来定义）的人，他们与生活中其他所有人或大多数人的关系——在许多情况下包括配偶或主要浪漫伴侣——都是安全的。但他们仍会对另一个人产生痴迷。

Yeah, yeah, no, it's a great question. I think more research needs to be done. I think what's really interesting though is a lot of the people I've worked with with this particular subset of limerence that I'm talking about here, again, we might end up with ultimately another term. But I would say it's really interesting that they often have what you would call a secure relationship to everyone else in their life or most other people in their life, including, in many cases, a spouse or primary romantic partner. And they're still developing limits for someone else.

而且这并不

And it's not

是啊。这确实很有趣。

Yeah. That is really interesting.

这也不总是意味着婚姻或伴侣关系出现了问题。他们会说：我不想...我爱我的配偶。我不想离婚。我并不真的想和这个人在一起。但这种情况还是发生了。

It's not always indicative of a problem in the marriage either or with the partnership. They will say, I don't want I love my spouse. I don't want a divorce. I don't want to really be with this other person. It's happening anyway.

知道吗？他们会问：我到底怎么了？为什么我停不下来？我认为这也许也将其与其他一些情况区分开来，比如边缘型人格障碍中可能出现的人际关系问题，对特定对象的依恋（有时被称为'特殊之人'）。但我认为我们这里讨论的是有些不同的东西，当然最终还需要更多研究。有趣的是，对这么多人来说，这是他们唯一的不安全依恋表现，而在其他方面他们都运作良好。

You know, what is wrong with me? Why can I stop? And that, I think, also maybe distinguishes it from some other conditions, like sometimes you might see in borderline personality disorder, for example, issues interpersonallying with attachment and having the special person, as sometimes it's called. And I really think we're talking about something a bit different here, though, ultimately, more research, I think, in that area. But that it's just interesting that there's so many people for whom this is their one, what you would call, insecure attachment, and everywhere else, they're functioning.

是的。确实如此。这种情况下，拥有更多人群数据对我们回答这类问题会很有帮助。你认为人们存在某种倾向性吗？是否某种类型的人更容易有这种体验？

Yeah. Yeah. And this is something where it's true that having more, like, population data would be really helpful for us in terms of answering these kinds of questions. Do you think that there is a route to this for people? Do you think there are is a kind of person who is more prone to this sort of experience?

或者你真的会看着它耸耸肩说，据我所知，这就像晴天霹雳，就这么莫名其妙地发生在你身上？

Or do you really look at it and shrug and go, as near as I can tell, this is bolt from the blue stuff. It just kinda happens to you.

这是个很好的问题。直觉上，我认为存在某种使人易感的因素。虽然我不确定是否是童年或成长过程中的依恋创伤，但我相信最终我们会发现它可能更偏向生理性，与大脑结构更相关。我们已有关于强迫症和成瘾的研究表明这些具有很高的遗传性。

That's a great question. In my gut, I think there is something that is making a person susceptible. That's I don't something know that it's an attachment injury that happened in childhood or developmentally or a trauma. I believe it's, we're gonna learn it's perhaps more biological, more brain based, structure of the brain. We already have research on OCD and addiction that, you know, very high heritability of those things.

我认为最终也会在这个领域找到答案。所以我确实认为有些人具有易感性，但不认为这一定是他们遭遇了什么特定事件导致的。

And I think it's kinda gonna shake out in that realm too. So I do think some people are susceptible. I don't think it's necessarily something that happened to them.

嗯，我认为这种说法实际上非常好，对正在经历这种情况的人来说也很值得倾听。因为就像你说的，羞耻感是其中很大的一部分。人们很容易陷入'我一定是哪里出了问题才会产生这种感觉'的思维。

Well, I think that that's really actually great to say and great for people to hear probably if they're experiencing something like this. Because like you were saying, shame is such a big part of it for people. And so it's really easy to go to, oh, there's something that's wrong with me, and that's why I developed this kind of feeling.

确实。我经常对人们说，患有强迫症的人只是大脑比较‘粘滞’，这不是你的错。你的大脑就是这样运作的，甚至可能还有其优势，虽然这是个有争议的话题。

Exactly. And I say to people all the time, you know, with with OCD, you just you have a sticky brain. It's not your fault. This is how your brain is. There might even be benefits of it, although that's another controversial topic.

我不确定是否要打开这个潘多拉魔盒。但我试图让他们明白——这就是我的大脑运作方式，我必须接受这个事实，并像所有人一样努力发挥自己的优势。

I don't know. We wanna open that can of worms. But I try to get them to just sort of realize this is how my brain is. This is the brain that I have. I have to accept that this is my brain and try to play to my strengths just like any of us.

如果你愿意谈谈的话，或许可以聊聊你‘粘滞大脑’的一些表现？你之前提到不会完全抹除——用强迫症术语来说——那些不愉快的体验或刺激。

So maybe asking you a little bit about aspects of your sticky brain if you're comfortable talking about it. You were talking about not going to, like, total total deletion, essentially, of the of the, you know, if we use kinda OCD language, the unpleasant experience or the unpleasant stimuli that you're having.

当然。

Sure.

你在论文中写到，你的痴恋对象（LO）是位同事，所以换工作之类的生活调整并不现实。你希望继续原有状态。那么当你刻意与这个人保持接触时，同时又要控制那些吞噬你生活的行为，这种体验是怎样的？

And you write about in the paper that your LO, your limerent object was a coworker, and so it it didn't really make sense for your life for you to, you know, find a different job or something like that. You you wanted to keep on doing what you were doing. Yeah. What was it like for you to deliberately enter experiences, interactions, whatever, with this person while trying to control some of the the behaviors that were eating up your life.

我认为在痴恋中，当你与对象存在现实关系时——比如同事或朋友——你们之间会有恰当且正常的往来。但与此同时，你的脑海里...

I think sometimes you see with limerence, for someone who you do have a relationship with, in this case, a coworker or could be a friend, you have a real life relationship with them that's appropriate and functional and doesn't have obvious red flags. And then there's, in your head

还存在着完全不同的另一面。是的。

There's there's everything else. Yeah.

那种幻想几乎像是另一个人。就像你同时维系着两段关系：现实中我们是同事或朋友，而脑海里那个形象——至少对我来说——他们的样貌声音未必完全一致，这实在是两种截然不同的关系体验。

There's the the fantasy is almost it's almost like a separate person. It's almost like you have two relationships with them. There's the everyday one, we're coworkers or we're friends. Then there's in your head, it's a it's they don't always even at least for me, getting an image of them, they don't always look or sound exactly like themselves. They really are it's like two distinct relationships that you're having, which is interesting.

根据个人情况不同——当然每个人都有些差异——但就我和我的来访者而言，完全可以掩饰得很好。多数情况下痴恋对象毫无察觉，不过并非我所有的痴恋经历都如此，毕竟我有过多个痴恋对象。

So I would say, depending on a person, I guess everyone's a little bit different. But for myself and several of my clients, they can totally mask it. They totally the limerent object doesn't seem to have any idea. I wouldn't say that's been true for everyone in my life. I've had multiple limerent objects.

年轻时不够成熟时可能难以掩饰，压力大的时候也更困难。你能在互动时表现得完全正常，但事后会反复琢磨三天：分析每个用词、每句话语、自己的每句对白、对方的每个表情。

I would say when I was younger, more immature, you know, it was maybe difficult to mask it. At times of high stress, it can be harder too. So you'd be interacting with them just like normal. And then afterward, you would think about that interaction for three days. Every word, analyze every phrase, analyze everything you said, analyze every facial expression they had.

这是什么意思？那又是什么意思？他们还喜欢我吗？我接下来该对他们说什么？要等多少个小时才能发信息？

What did this mean? What did that mean? Do they still like me? What should I say next to them? How many how many hours need to go by before I text?

就像，那大概就是这种感觉。

Like, that would be what it what it's like.

你是否发现经历痴迷的人，这种痴迷会开始妨碍他们生活中的其他健康关系，还是说它仅仅停留在纯粹的幻想般的内心世界里？

Do you find that people who experience limerence, the limerence starts to get in the way of other healthy relationships in their life, or does it just kind of remain in this purely realm of fantasy kinda inner world?

我认为这真的因人而异。就像我之前说的，我认识几个人，他们有着你可以称之为有效、愉快运作的婚姻或长期浪漫伴侣关系，但对象并非他们的痴迷对象。这对我来说依然非常有趣。就像你怎么能在心里同时容纳两者？我不太明白。

I think it really depends on the person. I think, like I said earlier, I've I've known several people who have what you would call an effective functioning enjoyable marriage or long term romantic partnership to someone else, not their limerine object. And it's that is still so interesting to me. It's like how can you have the brain space for both? I don't I don't know.

我认为其他时候，一个人真的会被痴迷所吞噬，他们可能对约会不感兴趣，甚至可能会减少与朋友相处的时间，去追求那个痴迷对象。比如，我会特意走过我知道他们上健身课的地方，只为了可能见到他们。我不想直接打开跟踪狂的大门，因为根据我的经验，这并不总是会导致那种情况。而且我记得最近有一篇系统综述或范围综述研究过这个，并没有发现痴迷会发展成跟踪行为，这让人多少有些安慰。但尽管如此，这仍然是一种想象中的接近。

I think other times, a person really is consumed by limerence, and they just wouldn't be interested in, you know, dating or would even kinda deprioritize time with friends to try to pursue the limerence object. Like, I'm gonna go walk past where I know they take an exercise class just so I can maybe see them. I don't wanna necessarily open the door to stalking because I think my experience has been it doesn't always lead there. And I think there actually was a systematic review or scoping review or something recently that looked at that and didn't find a relationship, a progression to stalking, which is, you know, comforting to know. But still, it's it's kind of that imagined proximity.

就像是，宁愿离他们近一些。我不想跨州旅行，因为我不想离他们太远。即使不能一直在一起，我也不想拉开距离。这可能会让你开始拒绝一些事情。或者，比如我想把日程空出来，以防我痴迷的那个朋友想制定计划。

It's like, would rather be near them. I don't wanna take a trip cross country because I don't wanna be across the country from them. Even if I can't be with them all the time, I I don't wanna distance myself. And that may lead you to start saying no to things. Or, like, I wanna leave my calendar open just in case this friend that I'm limerick for wants to make plans.

我不想和别人制定计划。相比之下，其他人都显得黯然失色。我爱你们。知道吗？我想花时间...

I don't wanna make plans with someone else. The rest of you kinda pale in comparison. I love you. You know? I wanna spend time.

我仍然想保持其他友谊，但你们不是他们。就是不一样。

I wanna still have my other friendships, but you're you're not them. You're it's just not the same.

你会认为一个直接的——我用引号是因为没有什么是真正直接的——某种程度上直接解决这个问题的方法是让这个人对那个痴迷对象采取某种行动

You would think that a straightforward and I use that in quotation marks because nothing ever is. Kind of like a straightforward way to address this problem for a person. Make a bit of some kind toward that limerick

对象。

object.

但我们最初讨论的核心问题——不确定性——始终存在这种张力。一方面，人们渴望确立确定性；另一方面，若真能确定，或许反而不会对这个人如此痴迷。我在Reddit等论坛看到（Reddit有个庞大的痴迷情感社群），那些痴迷论坛上充斥着大量关于如何以某种方式接近痴恋对象、尝试示好却被拒绝之类的帖子。对此你怎么看？

But there's this tension there between what we were talking about at the very beginning where kind of the core of the issue is uncertainty. And so there's this, on the one hand, kinda desire to establish certainty, and on the other hand, you know, if you actually were certain, you might not even be into this person. When I read on forums like Reddit like, Reddit has a big limerence community, and there are other limerence forums out there. There's a lot about a lot of posts about, like, approaching the LO in this kind of way or making this bid and being rejected or whatever is. What do you what do you think about that?

我认为这很大程度上取决于具体情况。我不会武断地给出绝对否定或肯定的建议。很多时候，这种不确定性实际上——或许换个说法更准确——可以说是存在障碍。比如你不会向明知性取向不匹配的人表白，

I think it heavily depends on the circumstance. So I wouldn't tell someone it's a blanket no, or it's a definite yes. I think a lot of the time that uncertainty really is a You might phrase it differently. You might say there's barriers. So you're not gonna romantically proposition someone who you know is not of the appropriate sexual orientation to match.

确实。

Sure.

也不会——虽然理论上可以尝试——向已有稳定伴侣的人示爱，更不会向根本不熟悉你的人表白。这种情感往往产生于远距离观察，

You're not going to. I mean, I guess you could try. You're not gonna proposition someone who's already in a committed romantic partnership. You're not gonna proposition someone who really doesn't know you that well. You're kind of observing from afar.

或许有些共同朋友，可能是某个疏远的同学，或是配偶那边的远亲，也可能是界限分明的同事之类的关系。

Maybe there's friends in common. Maybe it's a a class a distant classmate, you know, or distant relation on your spouse's side, something like that, distinct coworker.

因为大多数情况下，这根本算不上现实的恋爱关系。

You're Because so often, it it's not really a realistic relationship.

确实不现实。所以我不确定...

It's not realistic. Right. Yeah. So I don't know that

但有趣的是这类内容如此之多。论坛上随处可见'今天我向痴恋对象坦白了...'这类填空式帖子，这几乎是最常见的发帖类型之一。

It's interesting that there's so much content on that, though. There's so many posts about, like, today, I told my limerine object that fill in the blank. You know? That it's one of the most common kinds of posts that you see on these forums.

我在想这是否意味着我们其实在讨论痴迷情感这把大伞下的两个不同维度。我所说的更多是指存在明确障碍的情况——并非完全不可能，但真的因人而异。因为很多时候，你渴望的并非真正的恋爱关系，而是彻底的情感认可与接纳。

I wonder if we that gets to maybe this is where we're splitting off and we're talking about two different things under the umbrella of limerines. I think what I'm talking about is more so there's clear barriers. Not that you couldn't Again, I think it just really depends on it. Because I also would say what you want from this person isn't really a romantic relationship a lot of the time. What you're wanting from this person is total validation and acceptance.

当然也绝不是性——虽然可能附带性吸引力，或许性吸引与痴迷会同时存在——但重点不在于约会，而在于你几乎想让自己获得与对方在你心中同等的崇高地位。

And you definitely, I mean, it's definitely not sex either, you know? I mean, maybe there's that on the side. It could be both sexual attraction and limerence at the same time, perhaps, but it's, you're not looking for to be, oh, I don't wanna it's it's not about dating. It's about achieving that you almost want to achieve for yourself the same status that you see that you hold them at.

我觉得这句话说得太棒了，Brandy。你从这个人身上寻求的并非浪漫爱情，甚至不一定是性吸引力之类的东西，而是那种完全的接纳，或者说，像那样彻底地看见真实的你。我能想象一个人内心会产生这种吸引力，渴望这样的体验，特别是当人们谈到痴迷状态时——某些时刻这种感觉会显得（有时正是这类体验的问题所在），它们在当下可以如此美妙，如此令人沉醉、满足，或是让你觉得‘这就是我现在唯一想做的事’，就像你刚才说的，反复读这封邮件。

I think that's a fantastic line there, Brandy. That, like, what you're looking for from this person is not romantic love or not even necessarily sexual attraction or something like that. It's that total acceptance or, like, that total seeing of you in that same way. And I could imagine a kind of attraction inside of a person, a kind of desire for that sort of an experience, particularly if it you know, there are moments when people talk about limerence where aspects of it feel, and this is sometimes the problem with experiences like this, they can feel so good in the moment. They can feel so, like, overwhelming or fulfilling or it's the only thing I want to be doing, you know, like you were saying, reading this email over and over again.

‘此刻我只想反复读这封邮件’——对有些人来说，可能很难意识到这种行为带来的代价。或者即使像你提到的‘思维黏连’那样看到了代价，也仍然难以用不同方式从中抽离。

That's all I wanna be doing right now is reading this email. And it can be kind of hard for people sometimes to see the the cost of this behavior. Or even if they see the cost of the behavior like you were talking about, sticky brain, it can be hard to kinda unstick from it in different ways regardless.

所以回到最初的问题，至少对于我接触过的许多人——我自己也属于这类——你根本不会想到要向对方坦白这种事。这完全...这根本就不合适。

So I think for the to circle back to the original question, I think for a lot a lot of the people I've worked with at least, and and I would say myself in that category too, you wouldn't it it just wouldn't even cross your mind to disclose it to the person. It just it's just not it would not be appropriate.

这根本就不真实。

It's It's just not real.

不真实。对。完全同意。

It's not real. No. No. Totally.

既然这个选项已被排除，你提到了一些认知重构的方法（虽然可能有些复杂），比如观察念头而不深陷其中，还有一点暴露疗法。工具箱里还有其他对你或他人有效的应对策略吗？

So if that's off the table as an option here, so you've named a little bit of cognitive restructuring stuff, although maybe some complexities there. Mhmm. Seeing the thoughts as they go without getting so wrapped up in that, a little bit of ERP stuff. Is there anything else that you've found kind of in the toolbox, either for yourself or for other people that tends to help?

案例研究中我还提到，要把精力投入到符合你价值观的有意义活动中。我不想说是‘转移注意力’，但...确实也有点这个成分。

The other thing that I mentioned in the case study was putting your energy into activities that bring meaning and are in line with your values. I don't wanna say distraction, but, yeah, a little bit of distraction too.

或许有点吧。嗯。差不多就是这样。

Maybe a little. Yeah. A little bit. It is what it is.

没错。闲着的脑子总会...你懂的。找到能带来满足感的、与这个人无关的事情极其重要。所以去发掘能让你感到充实的事吧。

Right. Yeah. An idle mind is gonna, you know, whatever. I think having something to do that brings you fulfillment that's outside of this person is hugely important. So find something that brings you fulfillment.

你可能需要逼自己一把，因为会想‘我不愿做那个，我只想在家想着这个人’——我理解。但就像我在论文里提到的，我后来参加了大师游泳队，现在又加入了社区管弦乐团。诸如此类的事。

And you might have to push a little because it's like, well, I don't wanna do that. I wanna sit at home and think about this person. I get it. But once you're finally at the, you know, the master swim team is I think what I did, what we cite for me in the paper or I belong to a community orchestra now. You know, like that.

我是说，这不会是一样的。这有点像在说，你不能有你想要的毒品，但会有其他替代品。不过它仍然有帮助。我认为回到与你价值观一致的关键点很重要。你可能会问自己，这是我真正想花时间的方式吗？

I mean, it's not gonna be the same. It's kinda like saying, well, you can't have your drug of choice, but you're gonna have this other thing. But it still helps. And I think going back to that key of in line with your values, I think is key. You might ask yourself, is this how I really wanna spend my time?

我想把时间花在什么上？我知道那种情感上的牵引力是朝向思考和谈论这个迷恋对象的。我理解。你能从更高的层面来看吗？比如，这真的是你想花时间的地方吗？这真的是你的人生目标吗？

How do what do I wanna spend my time on? And I know the pull, the emotional pull is towards thinking about and talking about this limerine object. I get it. Can you take a meta level? Like, can you is that really what you wanna spend your is that really your goal for your life?

试试看，就试试。我知道这很难，但试着引导自己去做那些更符合你价值观和目标的活动。

Try just try. I know it I know it's hard, but try to to steer yourself toward activities that are more in line with those values and goals.

你还有对这个特定迷恋对象的想法吗？不是这个。这种情况会消失吗？

Do you still have thoughts toward this particular limerick object? Not this one. How this ever go away?

对一些人来说，是的。对另一些人来说，这似乎是一个连续的过程。他们从一个对象转移到另一个对象。是的。

For some people, yes. Other people, it seems to be a sequential series. They sort of move from one to the other. One to the other. Yeah.

是的，是的。我认为很多人都是这样，我记得有研究提到过，但我不记得是谁的论文了。可能是Tenno的书。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of people, it's and I think there's research I don't remember whose paper it is. Maybe it's Tenno's book at this point.

研究说，一次迷恋的平均持续时间是18个月到3年。我知道，是的，相当长。

That said the average length was eighteen months to three years for one episode of Learned. And I know, yeah, pretty long.

是啊，这可不是开玩笑的。

Yeah, that's no joke.

是的，但很多人可能一生中只有一次这样的经历。其他人似乎会有连续的迷恋效应。但我发现治疗在特定情况下非常有用，对那次特定的迷恋很有帮助。

Yeah, but a lot of people might just have one episode in their lifetime. Other people seem to have the serial impact, yeah, effect. But I do find treatment useful in that particular, with that particular episode. The treatment was very useful.

是的。通过你自己的记录，当然，你知道，样本量只有一个，研究人员可能会搜索我们所有的说法，

Yeah. And just through your own tracking, which obviously, you know, sample size of one and researchers may search all the phrases that we have,

是一个经过验证的筛查工具。

is a validated screening tool.

是的。不是那种经过验证的，你知道的，

Yeah. Not a validated, you know,

所有的

all of

那些，所有的免责声明等等。但通过你的追踪记录，你确实跟踪了，然后你会想，这是在变好吗？还是在恶化？某种程度上它确实有所帮助。那些行为确实减少了。

that, all the disclaimers, etcetera, etcetera. But but with your tracking of it, you know, you tracked it, and you went, is this getting better? Is this getting worse? And you did it did help to some extent. Like, those behaviors really went down.

你花在思考这个人上的时间确实减少了。所以，你知道，这已经是个开始。我们稍后继续节目，先插播一条赞助商信息。现在回到节目。

The amount of time that you were spending thinking about this person really went down. So, you know, that's something. It's a place to start for people. We'll be back to the show in just a minute, but first, a word from our sponsors. Now back to the show.

你介意我问一些关于这些网络社区的问题吗？我对此挺着迷的。你可能

Do you mind if I ask you a little bit about these online communities? Because I'm kinda fascinated by this. You may

会这么说。我得承认我还没有——我知道它们存在，但没有直接参与过，所以我的了解可能有限。不过

say that. I have not I will admit. I have I know that they're there. Have not participated directly, so my knowledge may be limited. But

我 是的。不。所以不会 是的。不会具体讨论。是的。

I Yeah. No. I so it won't be Yeah. Won't be specific. Yeah.

会更笼统些，你对这类事情的直觉。嗯。我们正在讨论这个。明白吗？它就在那里。

It'll be kind of more general, your vibes on this kind of thing. Mhmm. So we're we're talking about this. You know? It's right there.

这是OCD里的O。对吧？这是一种强迫性质。

It's the o in OCD. Right? It's it's an obsessive quality.

对。

Right.

在整个对话中，你确实强调了这些对迷恋对象的想法本质上是不受控制的。它们会不由自主地涌上心头，你能察觉到它们的流动，可以放下对它们的执着，我们也能围绕它们进行某种正念练习。

And throughout the conversation, you've really emphasized how these thoughts toward the limerine object are not well controlled kind of by definition. They come onto a person whether they sort of want them to or not. You can see them as they're flowing through. You can release your attachment to them. We can do some kind of mindfulness practice around them.

好的。很棒。但它们仍在发生。是的。然后还有这些庞大的社群，人们花大量时间讨论和思考迷恋。

Okay. Great. But they're still happening. Yep. And then you have these large communities of people who are spending an awful lot of time talking and thinking about limerence.

对。

Right.

所以我对此感到疑惑。一方面，支持性群体和社群的价值在于，他们支撑着你，让你保持责任感。我很欣赏这点。但同时，我们是否只是花更多时间想着这个人或这件事？

And so I just wonder about this. On the one hand, you have the value of, like, a supportive group of people and community, and they're, you know, holding you up, holding you accountable. Love all of that. Yep. At the same time, are we just spending more time kind of thinking about this person or thinking about this thing?

作为一个非临床医生，我只是偶然想到这点并感到困惑，我个人对此没有强烈观点，但这似乎很复杂。

And I I as a non clinician, I just kind of bumped my head into that and went, I don't know if I have a strong opinion about it personally, but it just seems complicated.

我完全同意你的看法。我认为这是个非常好的观点。我可能会建议他们有一个临床医生作为 moderator。我这话半开玩笑。

I I totally agree with you. I I think that's a fantastic point. I might suggest maybe they have a clinician moderator. I just it's half half joking. Half joking.

我知道很多强迫症支持小组是由外部 moderators 管理的，可以给予温和的反馈，比如‘我们现在似乎是在强化强迫思维而非挑战它们’。所以我会谨慎对待。我完全理解你的观点。但另一方面，回到‘不接触’的建议，我认为当把迷恋对象设为禁忌时，反而可能让他们显得更强大、更诱人。

I know a lot of OCD support groups are kind of moderated or mediated by out there, but you can kinda, like, give sort of a gentle feedback. You know, it seems like we're kind of reinforcing the obsessive bots right now instead of challenging them. So I would approach with caution. I totally take your point. On the other hand, I think just to circle back to, like, the no contact advice, I think you risk there when you make the limerent object too taboo, you risk making them more powerful, more desirable.

通常当某物被禁忌化时，人们会更想接近它。所以我认为需要找到平衡。我的意思是，你不能告诉一个人‘假装那个人不存在’，就像‘不接触’原则那样，不能谈论他们，不能接近他们，但他们确实存在。同时我们也不需要整天谈论他们。

That's usually what happens when you make a thing taboo, wanna approach it more. So I think you gotta strike a balance there. I mean, I don't think that you could tell a person, oh, just pretend that person again, like the no contact, just pretend they're not there. Just you can't ever talk about them. You can't ever approach them, but they're real, you know, at the same time that we need to be talking about them all day.

所以我认为——我在现在的治疗中也向我的治疗师做了这样的区分——我会提前说明：因为在过去的治疗中，我会一直谈论迷恋对象，说我有多爱他们，他们有多好，什么时候能再见到他们等等，这些故事其实毫无帮助。我觉得那只是在强化这种思维模式。但现在我会对治疗师说：好吧...

So I think it also, I guess I've made this distinction in my own therapy too with my current therapist where I'll kinda give her the disclaimer. Well, because in past therapy, I would just kinda talk about the limerent object and how much I loved them, how great they were, when I would see them again, you know, and just kinda all these stories about them. And that's really not helpful at all. I don't I think you're just reinforcing that thought pattern. But sometimes with my current therapist, I'll say, okay.

知道我要提到limer对象，但这是有目的的。

Know I'm about to mention limer object, but this is for a purpose.

我要去个地方。

I'm going somewhere.

我要去个地方。是的。我试图阐明一个观点或就此写点什么。所以我认为，我不想告诉一个正在与此斗争的人，他们不应该谈论它，因为我觉得他们确实需要支持。因此，很多时候当我辅导有强迫症的伴侣或父母时，我会区分支持和安慰。

I'm going somewhere. Yeah. I'm trying to make a point or write about it. So I think that I don't wanna tell a a person struggling with this, you shouldn't talk about it because I think they do need support. So I think it a lot of time when I'm coaching partners or parents with OCD, I'll kind of make a distinction between support and reassurance.

就像，如果有人寻求安慰，那就像是问：我会受伤吗？我会生病吗？一切都好吗？你觉得这个怎么样？我犯错了吗？

And like, if someone's seeking reassurance, it's kind of like, am I gonna get hurt? Am I gonna get sick? Is everything okay? What do you think about this? Did I make a mistake?

我做错了吗？所以我们会鼓励伴侣不要回答这些问题，但仍要提供支持。你知道，我知道这很难。我能想象你对这个很焦虑。有什么策略吗？

Did I do this wrong? So we would encourage the partner not to answer those questions, but still to provide support. You know, I know this is hard. I can imagine you're anxious about this. What are some strategies?

我能帮你制定一个策略吗？我认为这正是我们需要的。所以我犹豫是否要告诉人们不要互相联系，因为我觉得我们确实需要支持，而且，就像你说的，问责。但我担心让人们过多谈论，我觉得你在走钢丝。所以我的答案是在两者之间找到平衡。

Can I help you with a strategy around this? And I think that that is what we need. So I hesitate to tell people not to reach out to each other because I think we do need support and, like you said, the accountability. I worry, though, letting people talk too much of I think you're walking a fine line. So my answer is balance between the two.

是的。我认为这是个很好的答案。而且我觉得这表明我们今天说的很多内容都是某种形式的‘是的，但是’或者‘这很复杂’，你知道，这些都是棘手的问题。

Yes. And I think that's a good answer. And I think it's telling that so many of the things that we've so much of what we've said today is some version of yes and or it's complicated or, you know, this is tricky stuff.

是啊。

Yeah.

关于‘这些都是棘手的问题’这部分，出于我自己的好奇心，当你刚开始治疗自己的limerence时，或者当你与人们合作，刚开始处理他们的limerence时，是否有过一种‘消退爆发’或类似的情况，即在试图处理这些想法时，它们反而会暂时变得更强烈？

Related to the this is tricky stuff part of it, just out of my own curiosity, when you first started to treat your own limerence or when you work with people, when you first start working with them around theirs, is there the experience of a extinction burst or something like that, where in trying to sort of work with these thoughts, they actually become more intense for a little while?

我个人没有遇到过，但我不排除它可能发生。我只是没有注意到，但理论上它是有可能发生的。

I haven't haven't seen it personally, but it might I wouldn't say it couldn't happen. I would say I just haven't haven't noticed it, but it would make sense that it might.

我在想象某个正在听这些内容的人。他们此刻可能正想着，哦，对，这就是我正在经历的。我确实有类似的体验。他们开始尝试自己处理这些问题。

It I'm just sort of thinking of somebody who's listening to this. They're having a moment where they're going, oh, yeah. That is that is what I'm experiencing. I am experiencing some of this. They try to start to work with it them themselves.

他们会发现应对起来反而更困难了。这算是我想要提前提醒大家的一点。

They feel like it gets even harder to deal with. It's just something I sort of like to prepare people for.

根据我有限的观察样本——虽然样本量小不具备统计显著性，我像复读机一样强调这点——但我更常见到的是人们感到释然。能有个名称定义这种感受本身就是种解脱。

I think I've seen more often, again, small sample size, not statistically significant, I'll say that like a broken record, but I think I've seen more often people it's a relief. It's relief to have the name

为它命名。

for it.

因为在得知这个名称和少量相关研究之前，他们其实在迷茫中挣扎着理解这种现象，因为这和他们生活中的其他一切都截然不同。他们不知道该向谁倾诉，不知道如何称呼它，缺乏描述它的语言。而学会这个词，据我观察，往往能带来更多解脱感和清晰认知，就像我们之前说的——

Because prior to learning that there's this name and this very limited research, but we still have some, they were really floundering to understand this because it was so unlike everything else going on in their life, and they didn't know who to talk to about it. They didn't know what to call it. They didn't have a language for it. And learning the word, I think, often brings more relief, is what I've seen and more clarity. Like we said earlier, okay.

‘哦，那是痴迷状态在作祟’之类的。但我也确实见过，比如当我要求强迫症患者记录他们的仪式行为时，他们回来反馈说记录行为本身反而成了新的强迫症状。

Oh, that that's limerence talking sort of a thing. But I've also seen, certainly, when I assign clients to track compulsive rituals and OCD treatment, they come back and that's become a compulsion tracking the rich.

我不是故意要笑，但这种情况...

I don't mean to laugh, but there

确实也不该笑...不过你看，所以现在我学会了提前预警。但这就是人性——任何事都可能过度。我觉得对任何事物都可能陷入这种状态。

is a certain amount just shouldn't laugh either. But it but it you know, so now I've learned to give a warning about that. But it's so you can overdo anything. I think you can get into anything. I think that's just a human nature kind of a thing.

当你了解到某个概念后就会突然觉得：哇，现在到处都能看到它。就像学了个新词后突然发现这个词无处不在，可能是同样的心理现象。

You learn about something, you're like, yeah. You know? Now I'm seeing it everywhere. You learn a word, and then all of sudden, you see it everywhere. It's that same phenomenon maybe.

没错没错。就像你经历自我疗愈过程时领悟到某些事，之后就会在周围所有人身上看到类似的影子。确实如此。

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you go through aspects of your own therapeutic process and learn something about yourself. You start seeing it in other people all over the place Yep. Or whatever it is.

这其实是很平常的事情。是的。关于痴迷症以及应对方法，你觉得还有什么我们没谈到的、对大家有帮助的内容吗？任何你认为有用的都可以。

It's really normal stuff. Yeah. Is there anything that we haven't talked about yet that you think would be helpful for people to know about limerence, about approaches to working with it? Just whatever you think would be helpful here.

我真心希望听众中有人能开展研究，通过伦理审查委员会，联合生物统计学家真正推进这项工作。最近我和一位进行过小型痴迷症研究的研究者邮件交流过，所以期待未来能有更多进展。我认为关键是要做个明智的消费者，你懂吗？

I really hope that someone listening here has the capacity to run a study and engage an IRB and engage a biostatistician and actually do the work. And I do think there's some hope for that. I had emailed with a researcher who ran a small Lemurin study relatively recently, so I'm hoping we will have more coming forward. I think, yeah, just being an informed consumer. You know?

我觉得目前尚无定论，所以如我所说，对那些声称能治愈或拥有治疗方案的人要保持警惕。'治愈'可能用词不当，但治疗方案确实存在。重点是要明白你并不孤单，或许我们需要新术语来描述我所说的这类与强迫症高度相关的痴迷症亚型。

I think we all the jury is still out, and so I would be cautious, like I said, of someone claiming that they know the cure for this. I or even a treatment approach. Cure maybe isn't the right word, but a treatment approach. So I think key points, know that, you know, you're not alone. We might need another term to describe with the subset of limerence that I'm describing here, which I find closely related to OCD.

采用强迫症的治疗方法（如MACT的思维解离和ERP暴露与反应预防）似乎效果向好。记住这些方法很重要，同时要明白没有放之四海皆准的方案。就像对待物质使用障碍一样，如果你认为断绝联系最适合自己，那很好，我完全支持。

And treatment seems to be trending in a good direction with the treatments that we use for OCD, such as the thought diffusion for MACT and ERP, exposure and response prevention. So I'd say keeping those in mind. Also knowing I don't think there's one right way to approach this. I think if you feel that no contact is best for you, just like someone dealing with substance use condition, if they feel abstinence only is the right approach, okay, great. I love it.

我赞赏这种做法，但它并不适合所有人。所以要警惕那些声称只有一种治疗方式的人，因为我认为不存在万能方案。Al Wakeman的论文中提到强迫症和物质使用障碍都与痴迷症有关，但又不完全属于这两类。

I applaud it. It's not the right approach for everyone. So I would just be cautious about anyone saying there's one way to treat this because I don't think there is. I even think that's an interesting comparison. In Al Wakeman's paper, he had mentioned OCD and then substance use disorder, both related delimerence, but it was neither one.

它无法归入任何现有类别。我不太喜欢'爱情成瘾'这个术语，虽然有人把它当作痴迷症的同义词。这可能是语义问题，但我持减少伤害立场。以前为联邦政府做研究咨询时，我们被教导避免使用'成瘾'或'瘾君子'这类词，而要说'物质使用障碍'。

It fit into neither bucket. I I would argue that that's true. I don't love the term love addiction. I know sometimes I've seen that that's being used as a synonym for limerence, and I it's probably just a semantics thing, but I kinda come from a harm reduction background. When I was working in research and consulting for the federal government, we were kind of taught, don't say addiction, don't call someone an addict, say substance use disorder, relationship with substances.

所以我对这个术语有本能的反感。但最终我们需要更多研究来厘清：痴迷症是否等同于爱情成瘾？是否等同于单方面情感关系（parasocial relationship）？

So that's just sort of a knee jerk negative reaction I have. But I think ultimately we need more research on, is limerence the same as love addiction? Is it the same as a parasocial relationship, which is another term that's spoken of?

确实。某种程度上我想分享个人经历。庆幸的是，我从未有过真正诡异的现实遭遇。而且我们这个节目规模有限，属于小众领域。

Yeah. I mean, I was gonna just draw to some extent from my own experiences. And, thankfully, I've never had a truly weird experience out in the world. And, also, we're we're not of that kind of scale in terms of this sort of show. We're a niche show.

我们的听众大多是对这类话题有认知的群体，他们会意识到单方面情感关系这类问题。但即便如此，我经常遇到这样的情况——包括我的辅导对象——当他们第一次通过镜头看到我真人对话时，都会感叹：'这感觉太奇怪了，以前只听你单向讲述，现在却是真实互动，我熟悉你但你完全不认识我'。

We we talk to a population by and large of, like, very, you know, educated about this kind of stuff. People the kinds of people who would be conscious about a parasocial relationship or whatever. But still, I I I talk to people all the time, including, like, people I do coaching work with, where the first time that they they see me on the camera and I'm actually, like, talking to them as a human to human, they're like, wow. This is really weird because I've only heard you kinda talk at me. I've never heard you talk to me, and I feel like I know you, but you don't know me at all.

我就说：'没错兄弟，这就是我现在的生活常态。'

I'm like, yeah, man. Welcome to my life at this point.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以这确实是个奇怪的现象，带有某种痴迷的特质。

So it it is a strange thing, and there is this kind of limerent quality to it.

确实如此。而且这正是我希望看到更多研究的领域——我见过人们会对完全不了解的人产生这种情感。可能是名人，或者像是本地名人，比如公司里的风云人物，他们与这个人根本没有实际接触。嗯，完全不存在交集。

It is. Yeah. And that's another area I would like to see more research done is because I have seen people have this for someone they really don't know at all. Could be a celebrity, but or just like a a local celebrity, you know, the celebrity of their company or something, and they don't have direct contact with this person Mhmm. Really at all.

所以这是非常单方面的，但感受却同样强烈。正因如此，处理这种情况或告诉别人正确应对方式也变得棘手。如果对象是你的朋友或邻居，你们有真实的关系，情况就大不相同。难道要为此卖掉房子吗？明白我的意思吗？

So it's very one-sided, but yet it feels the same as and this is why it also gets tricky to approach this or tell someone what's the right way to approach it is. It's very different if you're if this is your friend or your neighbor, and you have a real relationship with that person. And what are you gonna do? Sell the house? You know?

因为你觉得他们就是命中注定的人。而面对那些不在日常生活中出现的人，显然你能更好地控制接触他们信息的频率。因此这种痴迷对生活的破坏性或侵入性可能稍弱些。但有趣的是——我们是否该把这两种情况都称为痴迷症？

Because you're right for them. You know? Versus someone who isn't in your daily life, I think you have a obviously, a great deal more control over how much content about them that you consume. So therefore, it could be a little less destructive or intrusive in someone's life. But interesting, do we do we then call those both limerence?

在我看来它们非常相似，但确实存在区别。这很具有挑战性。

I mean, to me, they look pretty similar, but there are distinctions. It's challenging.

这对治疗方式、接触程度以及偶遇频率可能都有重大影响。我完全理解目前这是个相当复杂的领域。

Probably pretty considerable implications for treatment and the level of exposure and how frequently are you bumping into this person. You know? I I totally get it that this is a pretty complicated space right now.

相当复杂。

Pretty complicated.

没错。但归根结底，这种强迫性质严重干扰生活，多数时候令人痛苦。对当事人来说绝非愉快体验。所以我希望未来它能越来越受到重视。

Yeah. But bottom line, obsessional quality, really messing with your life, unpleasant to experience most of the time. Like, this is not a fun experience for people. And so, you know, I hope that it's taken seriously increasingly in the future.

我也这么希望。虽然偶尔可能有欣快时刻，但我觉得...

Me too. Yeah. There may be kinda moments of euphoria, but I think

嗯。

Mhmm.

大部分时间都耗在焦虑中，交替经历焦虑和抑郁。焦虑的是，他们安全吗？因为想想看，如果这个人死了，你该如何哀悼？你知道，你该怎么向所有人解释你有多崩溃？

Most most of the time is spent in anxiety, alternating anxiety and depression. Anxiety, are they are they safe? Because think about it. If this person died, how would how could you grieve them? You know, how could you explain to everyone how distraught you are?

这毫无道理，明白吗？所以你担心他们的安全。你害怕会发生什么，害怕我们之间最终的分离。充满了焦虑。

Wouldn't make any sense. You know? So you fear for their safety. You worry about what's gonna happen, the ultimate separation between us. There's a lot of anxiety.

然后就是抑郁。他们如此优秀，我只希望他们能像我爱他们那样爱我，但他们没有。而我那么努力，却毫无进展。

And then there's the depression. They're so great, and I just want them to love me like I love them, and they don't. And I'm trying so hard. You know? I'm getting nowhere.

布兰迪，我得问问。我们快结束时，你觉得这其中是否存在自我价值的问题？

I gotta ask, Brandy. Is there you know, as we kinda come toward the end here, is there do you feel like there's a self worth aspect to all of this?

是的。

Yes.

对。可能我反应有点慢，但刚才讨论的内容里，这点似乎很明显。

Yeah. I mean, feel like maybe I'm late to the party here, but that just seems so present in what were kinda saying there.

是的。至少对我来说是这样。正如我在论文里提到的，我的模式是爱上那些某种程度上指导过我的女性。她们自动成为我的榜样，让我仰望——你这么优秀，而我不是。也许某天，我想成为你。

Yeah. I think that's been the case, at least for me. I think my pattern, as I mentioned in the paper, has been women who've been in somewhat of a mentoring role to me. So it's been an automatic, like, role model, kind of look up to you, you know, you're so great, and I'm not. And someday, maybe I wanna be you.

我觉得这也是其中一部分。

I think that's in it too.

这带有一种渴望的特质。

There's an aspirational quality to that.

理想化的品质。再举个例子，我大学时宿舍有位本科生宿舍管理员，她帮过我。就是那一刻，我被锁在门外时她伸出了援手——其实挺蠢的，门禁卡弯折了，我惊慌失措还引发了恐慌发作。

Aspirational quality. When I another example, when I was in college, it was for the resident adviser in the dorm, an undergrad dorm, and she helped me. You know, it was that moment. She helped me when I got locked out of my room, which was just stupid. The key card, it got bent and, you know, and I freaked out, had a panic attack.

那是我第一次离家生活。她就这么及时出现化解了一切。那种感觉就像是——

I'd never been away from home. And she just swooped in and made it all better. And it's like, here

你就在这里。

you are.

你无所不能。你太酷了。你解决了我的难题。你在学业上出类拔萃，有男朋友，大家都喜欢你。

You can do anything. You're so cool. You fixed my problem. You know, you're you're excelling in school. You got a boyfriend and everyone likes you.

你充满运动细胞。而我不是那样的人，但我想成为那样。所以只要靠近你，我就能变成那样。

You're athletic. And I'm I'm not that, but I'd like to be that. So if I get closer to you, that'll be me.

你认为这对正在经历类似体验的人是否有启示意义？是否有些方法能帮助他们建立更强的自我价值感或自我关怀？

Do you think that that has any implications for for people who are who are dealing with this experience, if there are ways to build up more of a sense of, like, self worth or self compassion related to it.

有道理。我会深入思考这个问题，或许能将其融入临床工作中看看效果。

I could see that. Yeah. And I'll I'll think more about that and maybe incorporate some of that into my clinical work and see how it goes.

很棒。随时告诉我进展。其实我们刚才只是随意讨论，但我不介意这样的头脑风暴。

Cool. Let let me know how it goes. Yeah. I mean, know that we just got a spitball in here, but I I I don't mind some spitballing. Yeah.

大家也都这样。我觉得我们完全可以参与进去。

So is everyone else. I think we could get we can get in there too.

完全同意。我只是好奇这个问题——我思考的是，在多大程度上人们...这正说明我们需要群体研究。

Totally. Totally. Yeah. I just wonder about that. I I wonder the extent to which the people and, again, this is why you need a population study.

那些经历痴迷情感的人，他们在自我价值量表上的得分会相对较高还是较低？因为这将对治疗方案产生一系列影响。就我个人而言，当我产生普通的好感或对他人有正常吸引力时，通常并不源于自卑心理——也许有一点——更多是带着一种向往感，比如'如果这类人能喜欢我该多酷'这样的情绪。

The extent to which the people who experience limerence, would they rank relatively high on, like, a self worth inventory, or would they be relatively low on a self worth inventory? Because then that would have all these implications for for treatment. And, you know, I I can think for myself when I've had sort of normative crushes on people or normative attractions to people, I don't think it's really, in general, been coming from a one down position. I mean, maybe a little bit. There's kind of a sense of aspiration or, like, wouldn't it be so cool if that kind of person were into me feeling to it?

没错。但这并不完全像你刚才描述的带有那种强烈向往特质的感受。所以我在思考这是否构成关键区别。

Yeah. But it's not it's not so full of what you were sort of describing there with this kind of aspirational quality attached to it. So I wonder about that as a distinction.

确实。可能还是需要群体层面的数据支撑。最终不同人群的表现可能各不相同，而我描述的或许只是其中一个子集。

Yeah. And it may be that, again, the population level data would be great. It could be that ultimately this looks different for different different groups of people, and I could be describing one subset of it.

当然。对某些人来说可能是'这简直太完美了，因为如此契合'。

Yeah. For sure. Whereas maybe for somebody else, it's like, oh, this would be so perfect because it's such a great fit.

正是。

Right.

知道吗？就像与这个人存在惊人的匹配度，但由于种种现实原因根本无法实现，完全脱离实际。

You know? Like, there's there's an incredible match between this person, but it just can't happen for a, and c reasons. It's totally unrealistic.

没关系。嗯。

It's fine. Yeah. Yeah.

是啊。谁能断言呢？这很难说。

Yeah. Who's to say? It's tough.

确实。这是个极好的洞见，我一定会深入思考这个问题。

Yeah. No. That's a great insight. I will I will think more about that for sure.

嘿，太棒了。记得告诉我。我真心对此很好奇。Brandy，非常感谢你今天花这么多时间和我探讨这个话题。

Hey. Love it. Let me know. I'm honestly curious about it. So, Brandy, I really appreciate you taking all the time today to talk to me about this.

这是个非常棒的话题。我希望学术界人士或临床医生等能围绕它产出更多内容，这样人们就能接触到更多让他们感到可信的材料。

It's a great great topic. I I hope that there's more content that gets produced by it by, you know, kind of academic types or clinicians and so on. And so people have more stuff that they can go to that they feel like they can have a sense of trust around.

完全同意。确实如此。非常感谢。

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you so much.

今天和Brandy Wyant讨论痴迷型依恋（limerence）非常愉快。我们谈话中反复出现的一个主题是：目前这个话题很难被公开讨论。显然大众对此有浓厚兴趣，网络上有大量社群在分享他们的痴迷体验，许多人试图传播相关素材，包括YouTube上众多关于'如何应对/治愈痴迷依恋'的视频。但现实是，目前关于这个主题的研究还非常匮乏。

I had a great time talking with Brandy Wyant today about limerence. And one of the themes that ran through our conversation is that limerence is a difficult thing to talk about right now. There's clearly a lot of interest in it. There are huge communities of people online who are talking about their limerence experiences and many people who are trying to share material related to limerence, including a lot of people sharing videos on YouTube focused on how do you deal with limerence or curing limerence or whatever else it might be. But the simple reality is that right now, we do not have a lot of research on this topic.

我们仍在努力定义痴迷依恋的本质，Brandy在对话中多次提到可能需要多个术语来描述人们的不同体验。通常我会在结尾总结讨论内容，但痴迷依恋本身就是个难以捉摸的概念。我在开场白中的定义是：痴迷依恋是一种强烈、非自愿且通常单方面的浪漫执念。Brandy在对话中进一步澄清，她有个精彩观点——痴迷依恋其实与对方是否回报爱意无关，你从'痴迷对象'身上渴求的并非浪漫爱情。

We're still trying to really define what limerence is, and Brandy mentioned a number of times throughout the conversation how we might actually land on multiple terms for limerence to describe different kinds of experiences that people have. And so, normally, I would begin these outros by talking about what it was that we talked about, but limerence is actually a kinda difficult thing to wrap your hands around at all. The definition that I gave in the introduction is that limerence is an intense, involuntary, and usually one-sided form of romantic obsession. Brandi then clarified this a little bit throughout the conversation, and I loved the line that she had where she really said that limerence actually wasn't about the other person reciprocating love. What you're wanting from this other person, this limerence object, is not romantic love.

你渴望的是对自我价值的完全认可。由于痴迷中存在高度理想化，如果真获得对方的爱——即使这种爱完全不切实际——只要对方确实把你当作恋人，痴迷的某些特征反而可能消退。人们探索痴迷依恋本质已有段时间。Dorothy Tennov在1970年代创造这个术语并著有《爱与痴迷》一书。

It's total validation and acceptance of who you are as a person. Because there is so much idealization in limerence, if you actually got the love from the other person, if they were legitimately interested in you, even if it was totally unrealistic, if they were legitimately interested in you as a romantic partner, it's possible that aspects of the limerence would really fall away for you. People have been trying to figure out what limerence is exactly for a while here. Dorothy Tennov came up with the term in the nineteen seventies. She wrote the book love and limerence.

这个词就来源于此。她的定义是：痴迷感与恋爱初期的感觉极为相似。在初期阶段，你根本无法区分爱与痴迷。虽然强烈，但本身并不构成问题。

That's where the word comes from. And her definition was that limerence is quite similar to the feeling that arises for people in the early stages of a relationship. For her, in the early stages, you really can't tell the difference between love and limerence. You know? It's intense, sure, but it's not inherently problematic.

后来Brandy多次提到的Al Watkin出现了。这位圣心大学心理学教授曾短期协助Tennov，也是少数专注研究痴迷依恋的学者。他认为痴迷更具危害性，主张应将其列入《精神疾病诊断与统计手册》。

Then this person that Brandy mentioned a few times during the conversation came along. His name is Al Watkin. He's a psychology professor at Sacred Heart, and he worked for Tanav for a short time. He's also one of the few people who's done focused academic work on limerence. And he found that limerence was more problematic and thought that it should actually be recognized in the DSM as a disorder.

Watkin认为痴迷往往毫无征兆地出现，将其定义为成瘾与强迫症的混合体。Brandy在对话中对此提出质疑。根据他的理论，当事人对'痴迷对象'的思念可能占据90%的清醒时间。许多人描述痴迷发作时如洪水般突如其来。Brandy举了几个例子，Tennov称之为'微光时刻'——

Limerence tends to come out of the blue for people. He defined it as a combination of addiction and OCD, and Brandi raised some questions about that during our conversation. The person is thinking of the other individual, the limerence object, as much as 90% of the time in Watkins' conception of it. Many people describe the onset of limerence as really coming out of nowhere and being very intense. Brandy gave a couple examples of that throughout the conversation, and Tanov called this the glimmer.

即与对方互动时的某个微小细节。Brandy举例说，当被某个她认为高效能干的人帮助时，会产生崇拜与效仿欲。痴迷与强迫症有许多共性：对'痴迷对象'的念头会侵入性重复出现，常伴随各种仪式行为——反复检查短信、重读往来邮件、搜寻对方好感的蛛丝马迹。

It's some kind of small detail or moment of interaction that you have with somebody else. Brandy gave the example of being helped by another person that she perceived as being, like, really effective and capable and that she kind of idealized and wanted to be more like. Limerence has a lot in common with OCD. The thoughts about the limerence object become intrusive and repetitive, and they're often paired with different kinds of rituals. Rituals like checking texts or rereading an email that you sent they sent you over and over again or trying to scan for signs of reciprocity or shared feelings.

比如'这个举动是不是暗示TA喜欢我？'但痴迷与强迫症也有区别。Brandi论文中有个精彩论断：对Brandi Wilde而言，不确定性正是痴迷的驱动力。她认为若痴迷对象表现出建立深度关系的意愿，痴迷反而会消散——这与Tennov的观察一致。痴迷对象的吸引力恰恰在于其不可得性。

Oh, is is that them telling me that they're actually really into me? But there are some distinctions between limerence and OCD as well, and there's this great line from Brandi's paper. For Brandi Wilde, uncertainty was a driving force of the limerines. Brandi believed that should the limerines object express interest in a committed, deeper relationship, the limerines would dissipate, which is consistent with Tanav's reported observations. Attraction of the limerent object is her unavailability.

换言之，不确定性是痴迷型爱恋的驱动力，而对于强迫症患者来说，不确定性却是敌人。这正是他们试图通过各种仪式行为来逃避的。随后我们花了大量时间讨论治疗痴迷型爱恋的方法，期间我们都提出了许多注意事项。布兰迪反复强调：我们缺乏相关研究数据，目前没有可靠依据，对那些声称'我能治疗痴迷型爱恋并帮你治愈'的人应该保持高度怀疑。

In other words, uncertainty is the driving force behind limerence, where for people who have OCD, uncertainty is the enemy. That's what they're trying to go through these different kinds of rituals in order to avoid. We then talked for a good chunk of the conversation about approaches to the treatment of limerence, and this is where we both gave a lot of caveats. And Brandi said over and over again, we do not have the research here. There is not reliable stuff out there, and you should view anyone who says, I treat limerence, and I can cure this for you with a lot of skepticism.

尽管如此，人们还是提出了一些方法。布兰迪本人尝试过某些方式，其中有些似乎对患者有帮助。虽然DSM并未正式承认痴迷型爱恋，但一些用于治疗强迫症和成瘾的认知行为疗法策略显示出潜力。比如思维阻断与重构，布兰迪多次提到的暴露与反应预防，还有接受承诺疗法中的自我观察技巧，以及其他正念疗法——让你观察念头流过脑海而不深陷其中。布兰迪也提到认知重建，不过同样给出了注意事项。

That said, people have come up with some approaches. Brandi has tried some approaches herself, and there are some things that tend to help people. While limerence isn't formally recognized in the DSM, there are some CBT strategies that are used for OCD and addiction that seem a bit promising. Things like thought stopping and reframing, exposure and response prevention is something that Brandy mentioned a good bit, forms of self observation from ACT and other kind of mindfulness based approaches where you see the thoughts moving through your mind without getting so attached to them. Brandy also mentioned cognitive restructuring, though she gave some caveats about it as well.

这种方法要求你审视自己的念头，特别是理想化思维，然后自问：等一下，这真的符合现实吗？是否存在更健康的认知方式？与其将痴恋对象视为完美典范，不如承认他们也只是有缺点有问题的普通人？如果了解更多，或许就不会如此痴迷。她还提到行为激活疗法，寻找更符合你价值观、更贴近理想生活方式的事物去追求。

This is when you take a look at the thoughts that you're having, particularly things like idealizing thoughts, and basically ask yourself, wait a moment. Is this actually real, or is there a healthier version of this thought that exists out there? Rather than the limerent object being this perfect aspirational individual, are they just a normal person with probably their own flaws, their own issues? If you knew a little bit more about them, maybe you wouldn't be quite so into them, that kind of thing. And then she also mentioned behavioral activation, finding other stuff that is more aligned with your values, is more consistent with the way that you want to live your life that you can pursue.

谈话尾声我们探讨了几个复杂问题：痴迷型爱恋与自我价值感/自我关怀（或缺失）的关系；大型网络社区频繁讨论这种现象是否会以不同方式强化执念；另一方面它又让患者获得被理解被看见的归属感。如何取得平衡？总体而言，我特别欣赏布兰迪坦诚表示这仍是片'狂野西部'——我们尚未确立有效的治疗方案。

Toward the end of the conversation, we talked about some of the complexities here, the relationship between limerence and feelings of self worth or self compassion or lack thereof, whether or not big online communities talking a lot about limerence just kind of reinforces these obsessions in different ways. On the other hand, it also gives people a great place to feel seen and heard and understood by other individuals. So what's the healthy balance there? In general, I just really appreciate how open Brandy was during this conversation about how this is still kind of the Wild West. We don't really have great established treatments for limerence.

心理学界刚开始正式界定这些术语，我个人非常关注后续发展。希望这次对话对你有益。想了解更多关于痴迷型爱恋的信息，布兰迪在《今日心理学》有专栏，也有Instagram账号，我会在本期节目描述栏附上链接。

We're starting to just begin to do more codification of these terms formally in psychology, and I'm personally very interested in seeing where this all goes. I hope you found this conversation helpful. If you would like to learn more about limerence, Brandi has a psychology today page. She also has an Instagram. I'll try to link to both of those in the description of today's episode.

她提到正在建设专题网站，也接受其他临床医师的咨询合作——如果你正在帮助痴迷型爱恋患者。看到这里还没订阅播客的话，请花一秒订阅支持，在任何播客平台订阅都对我们是巨大帮助。

She said that she was working on more of a website. She's also available to do consultations with other clinicians who are trying to work with people who are experiencing limerence. If you've made it this far and you haven't subscribed to the podcast yet, we would really appreciate it if you took a moment and subscribed. Just takes a second. The podcast platform of your choice really helps us out.

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If you're watching on YouTube, you can also subscribe there. You can leave a comment, a positive review, tell us other things you would like us to talk about in the future. That's all incredibly helpful. You can also find us on Patreon. It's patreon.com/beingwellpodcast.

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