Today we discuss why each of us decided to have more than two children.

这是iHeart的播客节目。

This is an iHeart podcast.

百分百真人制作。

Guaranteed human.

做生意却不考虑做播客？

Run a business and not thinking about podcasting?

你再想想。

Think again.

听播客的美国人比听Spotify和Pandora广告版流媒体音乐的人还多。

More Americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.

作为排名第一的播客平台，iHeart的规模是第二名和第三名加起来的两倍。

And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.

了解一下播客怎么帮你的生意增长。

Learn how podcasting can help your business.

拨打844844。

Call 844844

嗨，各位。

Hey, guys.

是我们，乔纳斯兄弟。

It's us, the Jonas Brothers.

我是乔。

I'm Joe.

我是凯文。

I'm Kevin.

我是尼克。

And I'm Nick.

猜怎么着？

And guess what?

我们自己做了一个播客，叫《嘿，乔纳斯》。

We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas.

我们居然做了一个播客？

We invented a podcast?

其实我们也没发明这事儿。

Well, we didn't invent it.

我们只是参与其中。

We we just contributed to it.

做播客的人。

People to do podcasts.

我们可以

We get to

问别人问题，因为我们早就受够了

ask other people questions because we're sick and tired

总被问来问去。

of being asked questions.

说‘受够了’有点夸张，但确实，烦了，累了。

Well, sick and tired is a strong way to put it, but, you know Tired and sick.

累了，烦了。

Tired and sick.

收听《嘿，乔纳斯》

Listen to Hey Jonas on

在iHeartRadio应用、苹果播客，或者你常用的任何平台

the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

都能听到这个节目。

get your podcasts.

随便听听就行。

Just listen.

你在哪里听我们都不在意。

We don't care where you hear it.

又一档由SNL深夜喜剧人制作的播客——其实也不完全是，来听《取悦我》，由罗伯特·斯米格尔和他的朋友们主持，我和从鲍勃·奥登科克到戴维·莱特曼这样的搞笑嘉宾一起，帮你变得更有趣。

Another podcast from some SNL late night comedy guy, not quite, on humor me with Robert Smigel and friends, me and hilarious guests from Bob Odenkirk to David Letterman help make you funnier.

这期嘉宾是SNL的米基·戴和首席编剧斯特里特·西德尔，他们帮一支无伴奏合唱团改进歌曲之间的串场话。

This week, my guest, SNL's Mikey Day and head writer Streeter Seidel help an acapella band with their between songs banter.

你们团体一般在哪里演出？

Where does your group perform?

我们也会去一些养老院表演。

We do some retirement homes.

那些老人特别渴望有人陪他们聊天。

Those people are starving for banter.

在 iHeartRadio 应用、Apple 播客，或者你听播客的任何平台收听《Humor Me》与罗伯特·西格尔和他的朋友们。

Listen to humor me with Robert Smigel and friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

你好。

Hi.

我是劳拉·范德卡姆。

This is Laura Vanderkam.

我是个四个孩子的妈妈，也是一名作家、记者和演讲者。

I'm a mother of four, an author, journalist and speaker.

我是莎拉·哈特·昂格尔。

And this is Sarah Hart Unger.

我有两个孩子，很快就要有三个了，同时也是一名执业医生。

I'm a mother of two and soon to be three and a practicing physician.

我们两个都是在职父母，既热爱事业，也深爱家庭。

We are two working parents who love our careers and our families.

欢迎来到《两全其美》。

Welcome to best of both worlds.

在这里，我们会聊真实女性如何平衡工作、家庭和娱乐时间。

Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.

从解决育儿问题，到规划长期职业目标，我们都希望帮你活出更充实的人生。

From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals, we want you to get the most out of life.

欢迎收听第一期。

Welcome to episode one.

今天我们要聊聊，我们俩是怎么决定要两个以上孩子的，我会分享作为三个孩子的妈妈现在的感受，而莎拉则会谈谈她未来的打算，因为她预计十二月就要迎来第三个孩子了。

Today, we're going to be talking on how each of us decided to have more than two kids with some musings on what that's like now from me, Laura, and what the future holds from Sarah because Sarah is expecting her third child in December.

对吧，莎拉？

Right, Sarah?

没错。

That's right.

我现在正处于孕中期，已经二十三周了。

I'm currently in that sweet spot of the second trimester at twenty three weeks.

太好了。

Awesome.

说到未来，我们现在俩人都在关注开学这件事。

But speaking of the future, both of us are kind of focused on the near future right now of school starting.

你们家什么时候开学？

When is that coming up for you?

我们家大概一周半后开学，我女儿要上幼儿园大班，这是她第一年正式上学。

For us, we start in about a week and a half for my daughter who will be entering her first real year of school in kindergarten.

我儿子则晚一周，继续上学前班。

And my son starts a week after that with just another year of pre K.

你们呢？

What about you?

我们是劳动节之后开学。

Yeah, we're starting after Labor Day.

我觉得北方的很多学校都是劳动节后开学，而南方的学校通常会早一些。

I think a lot of the schools in the North start after Labor Day and more Southern schools start earlier than that.

不过这周我花了不少时间在设计明年的活动表格，我知道你也得弄一份类似的课外活动安排吧。

But I've actually been spending a bunch of time this week designing my activities spreadsheet for the coming year, which I know you also have had to put together quite an activity schedule of, like, after school stuff.

对吧？

Right?

没错。

Absolutely.

是的。

Yeah.

这还真是个地区差异很大的事。

It's such a regional thing.

我感觉南方的学校早就准备好了。

I feel like all the Southern schools are already ready to go.

而北方呢，总觉得离开学还远着呢。

And up north, it's like, oh, that's forever from now.

但确实如此。

But it's true.

课外活动报名得趁早，因为名额一满就没了。

The activity stuff starts early because you gotta get your sign ups in while they're available.

报名得抓紧。

You gotta get the sign ups in.

我知道我得赶在体操课的第一批名额被抢光前报名，每次帮大家协调时间，要是首选的项目没抢到，真的挺头疼的。

I know I had to put in a sign up for gymnastics before the the first choice was sold out, and that's always a problem when I'm coordinating everyone's schedules when your your first choice isn't there.

不过今年你第一次体验了买学习用品的烦恼吧。

But you were introduced this year to the fun of the school supply shopping.

是的。

Yeah.

买学习用品这事真让我大开眼界。

The school supply shopping was eye opening for me.

以前在幼儿园，就是送完孩子就完事了，根本不用操心别的。

I was used to the preschool thing where you just drop your kid off and kinda don't worry about much else.

但我们收到的清单上列了二十多件东西，好多还是三份重复的，还指定了一些具体品牌。

But we received an item list with more than 29 things, many of them in triplicate and more with specific brand names.

这真有点让人望而生畏。

So that was rather intimidating.

为什么非得指定品牌呢？

Why was it specific brand names?

比如说，学校跟彩铅品牌Crayola搞了什么合作吧。

You know, like a cut deal with Crayola somewhere.

是啊，我也不太确定，但后来我发现其实很多人根本不在乎品牌。

Yeah, I'm not exactly sure, but then I actually found out that a lot of people ignore the brand name part.

弄明白这点之后，事情就简单多了。

So it became a lot easier after I figured that part out.

对，这样确实好多了。

Yeah, no, that's good.

我想唯一可能的原因是，我孩子所在的幼儿园班级是大家一起凑齐学习用品的。

I guess the only reason I could see that is some, my kindergartners class actually pooled a lot of supplies.

所以也许他们只是希望每个人都有同样的东西，

And so maybe if they just wanted everyone to have the same thing,

我觉得就是这样。

think that's exactly it.

你知道吗，给五岁孩子发东西的时候，要是有点细微差别，都可能引发一场大乱？

And you know how when you're doling out items to five year olds, if there are subtle differences that could actually spark like World War three?

幼儿园教室里怕是要闹翻天了。

There'd be riots in the kindergarten classroom.

是啊。

Yeah.

那你最后挑到一个不错的背包了吗？

So did you did you come up with a cool backpack though?

因为这才是关键。

Because that that is the key.

说实话，我们还没去买呢，不过今天我休息，可能今天就去逛一逛。

You know, I haven't we still have to go backpack shopping and we might go today because I'm off today.

所以我打算带我女儿一起去。

So I'm thinking about taking my daughter.

这很好。

That's good.

没错，我得说，孩子自己挑才是关键。

Yeah, that is I gotta say that's the thing the kid has got to pick out themselves.

每年我七岁的孩子都非要选一个卡通图案的书包。

And every year my seven year old wants to choose a cartoon backpack of some variety.

当然了，我十岁的孩子终于肯放弃那种廉价书包，选了个能撑一整年的正规款了。

And of course, are the cheapy ones like, finally, my 10 year old has acquiesced to getting like a real backpack that will stay together for the whole year.

七岁的时候，还是得选个宝可梦或者忍者神龟之类的图案。

I guess at seven, you still got to get your Pokemon or Teenage Turtles or whatever it is.

是的。

Yeah.

我感觉马上就要面对一堆麻烦了。

Can sense some trolls or descendants action in my immediate future.

是的。

Yeah.

今年你们都安排了哪些活动？

What are you guys actually doing for activities this year?

我们安排了很多。

We're doing a lot.

我没做成电子表格，因为我跟劳拉不一样，我喜欢用纸笔记录。

I didn't quite make a spreadsheet because my style is more analog than you, Laura, so I wrote it all down on paper.

不过我们这阵子确实挺忙的。

But we have a lot of stuff going on.

两个孩子都在练体操。

I've got both kids doing gymnastics.

他们俩也都学游泳。

They're both doing swimming.

还有一些放学后的活动，其实就一小时，我觉得都不算数，顶多就是让放学时间从三点开始。

There's some after school activities that are really just an hour after school, so they sort of don't even count in my opinion because they just make the day end at three.

安纳贝尔在学戏剧和陶艺，另外周六还有芭蕾舞。

And Annabel's doing drama and also clay modeling, and then I she also has ballet on Saturdays.

卡梅伦则练篮球和足球。

And then Cameron has basketball and soccer.

所以安排得真够满的。

So it's a lot.

我觉得他们每天都有一到两项活动。

I feel like they each have one or two things every single day.

我可能安排得太多了，但我还是想趁现在让他们多试试自己喜欢的，因为等春天新宝宝出生后，估计就得缩减一些了。

So I I probably overdid it, but I also figured I better let them do what they want now because I felt like in the spring, once we have the new baby, things might have to be dialed down a bit.

你们呢？

What about you Well,

我们这边有游泳、空手道、体操。

we're doing, oh my goodness, swim, karate, gymnastics.

不过这些活动都挺耗时间的，尤其是孩子开始参加更专业的游泳训练后，每周要练好几次。

But all those things sort of take a lot of time in the sense that they're multiple times per week as the kids get into more like competitive swim and stuff like that.

你们有多次训练。

You have multiple practice.

那是大孩子才有的安排。

That's a big kid thing.

我觉得小孩子的活动通常一周只

I feel like all the little kid things are just once a

一次。

week.

对，不过没问题的。

Yeah, but it'll be fine.

我是说，那个表格，你要是觉得好笑也可以笑，但它是很有道理的。

I mean, the spreadsheet, you can laugh about it if you want, but it makes sense.

因为这样我就能清楚看到大家在特定时间需要做什么。

Because I can see then where people need to be at certain times.

这就像个复杂的拼图游戏，我得确保自己的工作时间不被占用。

And it's this whole intricate puzzle of making sure I'm protecting my work time.

所以我尽量避免出现需要两个司机的情况。

And so I'm trying to make sure there's not too many times where we need more than one driver.

我们的保姆基本都能搞定。

Our nanny can do most of it.

不过话说回来，这种忙碌的日子也挺正常的，这也引出了我们今天的主要话题——家庭人多的时候，确实会变成一场复杂的安排，得搞清楚谁在什么时候要去哪儿。

But yeah, it's good times, which brings us to our main segment today, which the thing with larger families is it does become this intricate puzzle of who needs to be where when.

而且后勤工作也多得多。

And there's a lot more logistics involved.

但我们都还是决定要个更大的家庭。

And yet both of us did decide to go for the bigger family.

我想，我们俩都觉得这事儿能行得通。

I guess we both decided it was going to be doable.

既然你最近才做这个决定，当时你是怎么想的呢？

So since you're more recently into this decision, what was your thought process with

这个？

that?

决定生第二个孩子对我来说根本不用犹豫，我觉得我们以前聊过这个。

Well, deciding to have my second child was a no brainer, and I think we've talked about this before.

社会上对从一个孩子变成两个孩子通常都能理解，但从两个到三个就完全是另一回事了。

Society isn't that surprised when people go from one to two children, but the two to three is a much bigger jump.

我一开始真没打算再要一个。

I didn't initially think we were gonna go for it.

我当时挺满足的。

I was pretty happy.

我们已经有了女儿和儿子，但不知怎么的，等他快三岁的时候，我怎么也放不下生第三个孩子的念头。

We had our girl and our boy, but somehow just about a you know, when he turned close to three, I could not let go of the idea of a third kid.

这倒不是因为我觉得有三个孩子生活一定会特别美好。

And it wasn't necessarily like, Oh, this is a great idea.

也不是觉得有了三个孩子人生就完美了。

My life will be fantastic with three kids.

就是觉得，如果我不这么做，将来一定会后悔。

It was more the idea that if I didn't do it, then I felt like I'd have a lot of regret.

我就是从情感上放不下这个念头。

And I just emotionally couldn't let go of the idea.

简而言之，我们最后决定要了。

I guess to make a long story short, we went for it.

过程没花太久，这点我真的很感激。

It didn't take terribly long, which I'm really grateful for.

我生第一个的时候等了好久，这次预产期却在十二月。

My first took a really long time, and we're due in December.

所以这次，我和第二个孩子之间的间隔能多几年，不像当初同时带两个小的那么紧张。

So I'm actually really excited to have a few more years of buffer between my second and my third compared to when I was dealing with my first two together.

之前有一阵子两个孩子都不到两岁，那真的特别累。

And they were act I had the fun two under two for a little while, which is really, really hard.

是啊。

Yeah.

现在孩子们都脱了尿布去上学了，你也算是熬过来了。

So now everyone's out of diapers and into school and you've got that.

我想这就是吧

And guess that's

差不多吧。

a plus minus.

没错。

Exactly.

我真记不清那是什么感觉了，得重新适应一下。

Like I don't really remember what that's like and I'm gonna have to dive back in.

不过我们之前也聊过这个。

But I mean, we've talked about this too.

你现在能体会到，这一切其实都是短暂的。

You have this perspective now of how transient it is.

但当你有第一个孩子的时候，会觉得这就是永远的常态了。

Whereas when you have that first kid, you feel like this is the new normal forever.

很难理解的是，这种‘新常态’其实只持续一年，接下来的一年又是完全不同的样子，之后还会不断变化。

And it's very hard to wrap your head around the fact that, well, this is the new normal for a year and then the next year is something different and then it's a continuing evolution after that.

对我来说，孩子越大，我越享受这个过程。

And to me, I've really enjoyed it more the older my kids have gotten.

所以当初我有两个不到两岁的孩子时，根本没想过再要一个。

And that's why I don't think when I had two under two, had any thoughts of having more.

但现在一想到三个孩子都上小学了，我就特别特别期待未来。

And yet now when I'm picturing like three school age kids, I'm just really, really excited about the future.

是的。

Yeah.

说白了，这就是关键。

I mean, that's the thing.

我觉得大孩子真的特别有意思。

I found big kids are so much fun.

他们当然也有问题。

And they have their issues, obviously.

会有不少矛盾、作业冲突这些事，但和他们待在一起其实挺开心的。

I mean, there's a lot of drama involved and homework battles and such, but they're kind of fun to hang out with.

我这儿还有一个两岁的儿子，他跟那几个大孩子完全不一样。

And I have this little guy who's two, and he's different from that.

照顾的方式也完全不一样。

And it's just a very different form of care.

这个年龄段真的很难搞。

And it's a hard age.

头几年特别特别辛苦。

And those first few years are really, really tough.

很多人决定不再生了，就是因为那几年实在太煎熬，留下心理阴影了。

And I think a lot of people decide not to go through it again because we do get so scarred by those early years.

但也许孩子越多，你越会发现，头两年就是难，躲不过去的。

But maybe the more you have, the more children you have, the more you do see that it's just, the first two years are going to be hard.

对吧？

Mean, right?

这次你心里有数了。

You're prepared for it this time around.

我知道我一直在记录时间。

Know that's I track my time.

我仔细算过我第四个孩子头两年的时间分配。

And I've looked at those first two years of my fourth stuff.

别提一天六七次喂奶、半夜被吵醒，这些真没多好玩。

Forget like the six nursing sessions per day or seven and being woken up in the middle of the night and it's not really fun.

但后来呢，

But then

我倒希望你以前就记录时间了，真想看看孩子都超过三岁后和现在带小的这两段日子有什么不同。

I kind of wish you tracked your time before because I'd love to see a comparison of what it was like when they were all say over the age of three versus having your little one.

我觉得这会特别有意思。

I think that would have been really interesting.

那段时间其实也就大概六个月，所有人都过了三岁，也都会上厕所了。

Well, there were only about six months in that beautiful window when everyone was over three and potty trained.

我记得那时候，早上我能自己安排时间，起床后想干嘛就干嘛，还能一个人出门，知道家里没人出事。但现在带两岁的，我根本没法保证家里不会出状况。

And, you know, I have memories of it in that I had more control over my mornings, I could get up and do stuff, I could go outside by myself and trust that everyone was going to keep house from there was not going to be death inside where I have no guarantee on that with my two year old.

但有些情况其实跟孩子本身有关，因为我女儿当时两岁半，是我第三个孩子，就在怀上第四个孩子之前，我曾经跟踪记录过一周的时间。

But some of that is just kids specific too, because I did track my time for a week when my daughter who's that my third kid was about two and a half, which is right before I got pregnant with number four.

那时候当然也有很多育儿的事，但早上我还是能掌控一些时间，而且我觉得她睡得比他好。

You know, there there was obviously a lot of kids stuff going on, but I did have some control over the mornings and two, and I think it's a she slept better than he did.

所以你永远猜不到会遇到什么样的情况。

And and so that's just you never know what you're gonna get.

确实如此。

It's kind of a Yes.

这一点说得太对了。

That part is so true.

我很欣赏你这种观点，每个孩子都不一样，可能跟你的做法没什么关系，环境一样、父母一样，结果却可能天差地别。

And I love the perspective that you have that they're going to be different and it may not be about anything that you're doing because you got the same environment and the same parents and then yet sometimes wildly different outcomes.

差别真的很大。

Wildly different.

你小时候家里有几个孩子？

But you know, many kids were in your family growing up?

我的意思是，你有没有注意到，当

I mean, did you sort of see as the

常态是这样的？

norm?

我只有一个妹妹。

I just have one younger sister.

说实话，我真希望至少还能再有个兄弟姐妹。

And to be honest, I would have loved to have at least one more.

我们俩在一起的时候，根本没那种大家庭的氛围。

I think with the two of us, we didn't really have that big group mentality.

我觉得要是再多一个孩子，父母的注意力也能分散一点。

And I think we could have used some diffusion of some of the attention from my parents.

所以其实我挺希望家里能再多一两个孩子的。

So I actually would have enjoyed some extras in the mix.

不过说实话，我从小就是和妹妹两个人长大的。

But yeah, I just had the experience of the one sister.

我丈夫是三个孩子中的一个，他们小时候的家庭氛围特别好。

My husband, however, is one of three and they had a beautiful family experience growing up.

所以这可能影响了我们的一些决策。

So that might've shaped some of our decision making process.

是的，我也是三个孩子中的一个，不过我哥哥和弟弟都和我年龄差距挺大的。

Yeah, I'm one of three, although my older brother and younger brother are both quite a bit far apart from me.

但正因为这样，我觉得两个孩子根本算不上常态。

But because of that, I think I never saw two as the norm.

我反而觉得三个孩子才更正常。

I think I probably saw three more as the norm.

我丈夫其实是四个孩子中的一个。

And my husband is actually one of four.

所以他可能觉得四个孩子才是正常的。

So he probably saw that more as the norm.

他妈妈是五个孩子中的一个。

His mom is one of five.

我爸爸也是五个兄弟姐妹中的一个。

My father is one of five.

所以我们的大家庭里，孩子都比较多。

So we certainly have bigger families in our extended family experience.

我一直挺向往将来一家人围在感恩节餐桌旁热热闹闹的场景。

And I guess I sort of always liked the idea of having lots of us around the Thanksgiving table in the future.

所以这一直是我留意的事，尤其是我们家最小的孩子特别调皮，那段日子真不容易。

So that's what I've kind of kept my eye on, especially as we've gone through some pretty rough times with the littlest kid being a bit of a terror and all always.

不过话说回来，你有没有因为选择多生孩子而被人说闲话？

But you know, it's like, have you gotten like flack from people at all for going?

我真没遇到过。

I really haven't.

我真没遇到过。

I really haven't.

我刚想到，你刚才一说，我觉得我的工作也让我对这事有了不一样的看法。

I was just gonna add because I thought about it when you said it, that my job has given me a unique perspective too.

我能接触到各种规模的家庭。

Like I get to see families of all shapes and sizes.

我有一个病人家庭，他们有两个孩子，一个12岁，一个14岁。

I have one family of patients where they have a 12 year old and a 14 year old.

后来母亲再婚，又生了一个两岁的孩子，最近刚生了第四个。

And then they had a second marriage and they have a two year old and the mom just had another one.

所以我亲眼看到了不同阶段的家庭模样——有两个孩子的时候，孩子大了的时候，还有刚有婴儿的时候。

And so I really do get to see this unique spectrum of what it looks like with two and what it looks like when they're older and what it looks like when they're babies.

因为我没经历过那样的大家庭，这种视角让我能超越最初那些艰难的年头，看得更远。

And I think because I didn't have that family experience, that dimension or that perspective has sort of allowed me to look past those first very difficult years and think farther ahead.

所以我觉得这对我帮助很大。

So I think that really helped me too.

是的。

Yeah.

没有。

No.

我是说，我们第三胎的时候确实挨了不少批评。

I mean, I feel like we got some flack for number three.

我怀孕的时候我们住在纽约，那时候再生第三个孩子，感觉真的特别疯狂。

Well, we were living in New York City when I got pregnant with And number it's very much like having that third is kind of a crazy thing when you're there.

最后我们还是搬出了城市。

And we did wind up leaving the city.

所以也许这还真有点道理。

So maybe there's something to that.

但很多人会说，你这是在加剧人口过剩。

But you know, a lot of people would be like, well, you're contributing to overpopulation.

当然，有些人说得比较委婉。

Mean, sometimes saying it in a nicer way than that.

还有人跟我说，他们根本不会生孩子。

You know, and then I've heard from other people is like, well, we're not going have children.

这简直像在搞碳排放交易一样。

It'd be like a carbon trading scheme, right?

就像你说的，完全没错。

Like you can have our Exactly.

不，其实我刚才就在想这件事。

No, that's actually Well, I was thinking about that.

我博客上有个评论提到，他们觉得挺有意思，我明明知道我们这儿最近发过洪水，也清楚环境问题，却还是决定再生一个。

I did get one comment on my blog where someone did write something about how it was interesting that I had decided to choose to have a third when I was aware about, you know, I was talking about how we recently had a flood and environmental concerns where we live.

但后来我想到，我大学时的几个好友里，说来有点特别，我现在是唯一一个有孩子的人。

But then my mind went to the fact that of my of my close college friends actually, This is a little unusual, but I'm actually the only one of the six of us with any kids right now.

还有一个朋友现在怀了第一个孩子。

I have another one that's pregnant with her first.

如果你看下人口统计数据，现在根本不是什么婴儿潮。

And if you actually look at population statistics, we're not in a baby boom right now.

美国的生育率其实正处于几十年来最低的水平之一。

We're actually at one of the lower fertility rates we've seen in a long time in The United States.

这让我感觉好多了。

That made me feel a lot better.

是的，而且我觉得你第三个孩子不可能导致迈阿密发洪水。

Yeah, also I don't think your third kid is going to be responsible for the Miami flooding.

我就直说了啊。

I'm just going to throw that out there.

大概不会。

Probably not.

要是我第三个孩子将来成了工程师，能想办法阻止洪水，那我可就太高兴了。

I would be really happy if my third kid becomes an engineer that somehow, know, stops the flood.

没错。

Exactly.

那才是我最大的期望。

That would be my greatest hope.

医生。

Doctor.

但我发现，人们往往觉得，你孩子越多，就越离谱。

But I really found that like, you know, people kind of the more kids you have, people like, Oh, that's crazy.

我不明白你怎么撑得下来的。

I don't know how you do.

我觉得从零个孩子到第一个才是最难的。

I really found that zero to one was the tough thing.

那才是生活方式的巨大转变。

That was the lifestyle change.

那就是你得几年没法去吃早午餐的时刻。

That was the we're not going to brunch for a couple years here moment in your life.

但从一个孩子到三个孩子就没那么夸张了。

Whereas two to three is not that crazy.

三个到四个只是多忙一点而已。

Three to four is just like more juggling.

你是不是也觉得是这样？

I mean, is that what you found?

没错。

Absolutely.

我觉得从零到一对我来说特别难。

I felt like zero to one was really hard for me.

当你有了第一个孩子时，很容易觉得，哎，我还能把以前的生活和育儿全塞在一起。

And I do think there's this temptation when you have your first to think, Oh, I can totally cram my old life in with the kid.

但头六个月到一年里，你会慢慢明白，再也回不去了。

And then there's this sort of slow realization over the first six months to a year that no, it's never gonna be the same again.

然后就是接受现实。

And then comes acceptance.

一旦你真正进入父母的角色，生活重心变成了孩子和家庭，我发现再多添一个，也没让日子变得难太多。

And once you've gotten to that place where you're a parent and your life is about your children and family, I didn't really find that adding more to the mix made things all that much difficult.

当然，我不是说我喜欢挤奶——这个我们回头再聊，头几年确实不容易，但我觉得从零到一比从一到二难多了。

Now, I'm not saying that like I'm loving pumping, you know, that's something we'll talk about and the early years are really hard, but I felt like zero to one was harder than one to two.

也许我有点太乐观了，但这次再添一个，我反而没那么紧张，因为第一，我觉得自己知道该怎么做了。

And maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I'm actually less nervous about adding this one to the mix because A, I feel like I know what I'm doing.

第二，我已经处在父母的状态里了。

B, I'm already in that parent place.

而且第三点，这次我不会再一边照顾婴儿，一边还要应付一个 toddler，像上次那样。

And C, I'm not going to have a toddler that I'm dealing with while I'm dealing with an infant like I did the second time around.

是的，你家早就有了家庭用车。

Yeah, you totally you already have the family car.

你们的托育安排也早就定好了。

Like you guys already have your childcare arrangement.

说白了，这些根本不用怎么改。

I mean, you're not even really going to have to change that.

这中间其实有不少成本可以节省。

There are some economies of scale with that.

我们确实得换辆车，我的普锐斯装不下三个儿童安全座椅。

We actually do need a car because my Prius is not going to fit all three car seats.

所以这没问题。

So that's okay.

我们已经有计划了。

We have plans.

但你看，你其实已经在为应对气候变化做贡献了。

But see, you've fighting global warming already.

这方面你早就做得很到位了。

You're already good in that.

我因为开了普锐斯，才有了第三个孩子。

I've earned my third

你开普锐斯才有了第三个孩子，这可是你的功劳。

kid by having the Prius.

我想岔开话题说点别的，因为等你们有三个孩子的时候，肯定有人会跟你说：‘哦，你们这是从盯人防守改成区域联防了。’

I want to just go off on a tangent here because I'm sure you're gonna get people telling you this when you're going to three people like, Oh, you're switching from man on man to zone defense.

我特别讨厌这种说法。

I hate that.

天哪，真的受不了。

Oh my goodness.

你有没有发现，说这种话的全是男人？

Have you noticed it is only men who say that?

确实都是男人这么说。

It is totally men.

因为他们就是从这个角度想的。

It's because that's from their perspective.

我们本来就经常打区域防守。

We're like, we're often zone.

我们本来就擅长区域防守。

We're good at zone already.

我不太清楚

Don't know

你在说啥。

what you're talking about.

第二个孩子出生了。

Number two was born.

明白吗？

Okay?

你能看出来，一个平时没怎么单独带过两个孩子的人，当第三个孩子出生后，会手忙脚乱。

Like, I and is that you can tell a guy who's, like, not had a whole lot of solo time with his two kids when they have a third.

这时候他就说，咱们得从一对一防守转成区域联防了。

And that's when he's saying, like, we're going to zone defense from man on man.

因为说实话，你晚上和周末在家的时候，确实每个孩子都带过，但你老婆带孩子的时间比你多得多。

Because, yes, every time you've been home at nights and on weekends, each of you has had a kid, but your wife had the kids more time than that.

所以从她的角度看，我们早就学会怎么打区域防守了。

And so yeah, from her perspective, we've already figured out the zone thing.

这算是我挺在意的一件小事。

That's one of those little pet peeves of mine.

你有没有发现，孩子越多，父母双方就越是不得不平分责任？

Do you find that the more kids you have, the more there is sort of responsibility taken equally from both parents just by necessity?

一定程度上是这样。

To a degree.

当然，我们还是需要很多额外的帮助。

I mean, certainly we need a lot of extra help too.

我丈夫工作经常出差，我也会出去跑一跑。

My husband travels a lot for work and I travel some too.

我经常到各地去做演讲。

I do a lot of speeches in various places.

所以得有个靠谱的育儿安排，能应付 overnight 出差，还得能灵活应对孩子们不同时间要去不同地方的情况。

So for that, need a really good childcare setup that can accommodate overnight trips and the fact that kids need to be lots of different places at different times.

不过周末嘛，通常是他带两个，我带两个，有时候是他带三个大的，我带最小的那一个。

But yeah, I mean, can't, on weekends, it does wind up being a lot of like, he'll take two of them, and I'll take two of them or often it may be that he takes the big three and I take the little guy.

这样分工，做事情还挺顺的。

That tends to be a good split for doing things.

但说真的，有四个孩子，父母俩根本别想在周末真正歇着。

But you know, neither parent exactly gets a whole lot of weekend downtime when there are four of them.

不过我们会利用最小的娃午睡那会儿，让其他孩子看看屏幕或者去读书，等他醒了，我们再聚一块儿一起处理后续的事。

Although we do try to use the littlest ones nap to tell the other kids, go have some screen time or go read and we'll, you know, all reconvene when he's back up and then we'll deal with it then.

有四个孩子的情况下，这算是周末能换来一点清净的好办法了。

That's a good way to get a little bit of peace on weekends with that many.

我可没指望头几年能有多清静。

I'm not expecting that much peace for the first.

没错，确实如此。

No, no, it's not.

不过我很好奇，你这么考虑自己的事业，因为我知道很多职业女性都觉得，每生一个孩子，事业就可能受一次打击。

But that's, you know, like, I'm curious that you think about your career, though, because I know other thing, I think a lot of professional women, feel like each kid has the risk of being a hit to your career.

从某种程度上说，我觉得，既然你已经生了一个，如果真要承受冲击的话，那大概已经扛过去了——当然，我也不觉得非得承受这种打击。

And on some level, I again feel like, well, once you've done one, you've already taken if you're going to take a hit, which I don't think you have to take a hit, but if you are going to, you may have taken it.

等你摸索出怎么在有一个孩子的情况下发展事业，再添第二个、第三个，就只是多 juggl 一些事情而已。

After you figured out how to build your career with one, adding a second, adding a third is just more juggling.

不是说你还没学会怎么应对。

Not that you haven't out how to do it.

我同意。

I agree.

而且说实话，孩子越多，反而越逼着你把事情简化。我有些只有一孩子的同事，反而还会把孩子带到办公室来。

Plus, actually more kids sometimes tends to force you to streamline things even more so that I have colleagues with one kid where they may actually bring their kid in.

但考虑到我孩子的数量和年龄，这种情况根本不可能发生，所以我不会这么做。

But since that's like not gonna ever be a reality with the number of kids and the ages of kids I have, I would not do that.

所以在这方面，我其实已经建立了不少育儿安排和保障机制，这些可能反而比只有一个孩子、临时拼凑照顾的人更有优势。

So that's an instance in which I probably have, well I do, I have processes in place and sort of safety nets, I guess, of childcare that might actually be advantageous compared to someone who really wouldn't need to throw that together with one kid.

是的，我也发现，随着孩子越来越多，我们的育儿安排这些年确实越来越好。

Yeah, and I know that my childcare arrangements have definitely gotten better over the years as we've had more kids.

部分原因是我现在对请人帮忙这件事更坦然了。

It's partly that I feel probably better about having it.

感觉不再像以前那样，好像只是我在偷懒或者没尽到责任。

Like it feels less like it's just, you know, me not doing something.

现在，至少有四分之一的育儿时间，我其实是和孩子在一起的。

Mean, now, at least probably a quarter of the time we have childcare hours, I'm with a kid.

我只是和其中一个孩子待着，而别人在照看其他孩子，或者类似的情况。

It's just I'm with one of them while somebody else is with another kid, you know, the rest of the kids or something.

这样安排就可行了。

So that makes it possible.

如果只有一个孩子，我肯定不会这么做，根本没这个必要。

I wouldn't have done that with one kid because it wouldn't have really made sense.

但正因为这样，有四个孩子之后，生活反而顺畅多了。

But because of that, it's made life a lot more smooth with four.

我没法说只有一个孩子是什么体验，但每次有托育服务帮我看管一个孩子时，和剩下的那个孩子独处的感觉真的像是一种特别的恩赐，是我平时难得拥有的亲密时光。

And I can't speak to what the experience would be like with just one kid, but I do feel like having more than one, when I do have childcare to cover one, it really does feel like a treat and like this intimate experience with the one kid that I don't normally have.

所以，当这样的机会真的出现时，我反而更加珍惜。

So I actually feel like I appreciate it more when those times do occur.

是的。

Yeah.

对我来说，特别重要的一点是，必须为大孩子安排一对一的时间，尤其是现在有个小的需要大量关注。

And I that has been a big thing for me having to build in one on one time with the older kids, especially when we have this younger kid who needs a lot of attention.

所以我们做了几件事情。

And so we've done a couple of things.

比如每年夏天，我会安排几个‘妈妈日’，挑一天不工作，单独带一个大孩子去干点特别的事。

I mean, one is that I try to do these like mommy days every summer where I take one day and I I don't work and I go do something special with with each of the big kids.