为未来住宅标准改革管道与供暖行业的学徒制模式

欢迎来到又一期《BetaTalk》。

Welcome to another episode of BetaTalk.

这期节目由我主讲，首先要感谢我的赞助商ESBY。

This episode you've just got me and I'd like to thank my sponsors who are ESBY.

他们生产的阀门非常出色，广泛应用于热泵系统中。

They make them wonderful valves that people are using in heat pump systems.

我们还有Woolsey的可再生能源中心，Primary Pro做的外管保温系统，以及UK Radiators和Cast Rads——我最喜欢的两家散热器公司。

We have Woolsey's Renewable Centre, we have Primary Pro who make the outside pipe insulation system, we have UK Radiators and Cast Rads, my two favorite radiator companies.

还有Payaka，这是一个帮助众多技术人员的软件平台。

And we have Payaka, which is a software platform helping lots of tradespeople.

感谢我的赞助商，没有他们，我就没法推出通讯简报和播客。

Thank you to my sponsors because without them, I would be able to get my newsletter out and my podcast.

所以今天这期节目，其实是为了推广我的通讯简报。

So today, this episode is actually supporting a newsletter.

到目前为止，我的通讯简报一直在BetaTalk网站上发布一些案例研究，内容主要是由资深热泵工程师安装的热泵系统，这些工程师都属于资深热泵工程师协会。

So my newsletter so far, which populate my website, BetaTalk, they publish case studies, so I publish case studies of heat pump installations generally that have been installed by master heat engineers, they're in the guild of master heat engineers.

我还会分享一些行业洞察，聊聊业内正在发生的事。

And I also do industry insights where you hear me ramble on about what's going on in the industry.

但我发现，我们接触的政策制定者们，很难引用我这些内容。

But I realised the policy people that we're all interacting with, they can't really reference the stuff I'm doing.

他们有自己的写作方式，写论文和报告都有固定套路。

They have their own sort of way of writing papers and reports.

我早年在九十年代末还读过研究型学位。

And once upon a time, I did a research degree back in the late nineties.

所以我翻出当年的书，重新看了不少关于社会研究的方法。

So I got out my books and was reading all about social research.

我决定把部分通讯做成可引用的格式，让和我合作的政策圈人士能直接在报告里引用和参考。

And I've decided to do some of the newsletters in the form of what can be citable, what can be referenced by the people I work with in policy so they can read these reports and then cite them and reference them.

最新一期通讯讲的是学徒制。

So the latest newsletter is all about apprenticeships.

标题是《技术岗位复兴：关于环护导师与同伴验证型学徒模式的政策报告》。

It's titled The Restoration of A Technical Position Paper on the Peripotectic Mentor and Peer Validated apprenticeship models.

这名字可真够长的，我会一一解释清楚，比如什么是‘peripotectic mentor’，什么是立场文件。

Quite a mouthful and I'll be explaining what all that means, what a peripotectic mentor is and what a position paper is.

立场文件就是表达我的观点，也就是BetaTalk对学徒制的看法，我觉得哪里需要改进，学徒制又哪里出了问题。

So a position paper is where I'm given my viewpoints, the viewpoints BetaTalk about the apprenticeship and what I think is needed, where I think apprenticeships are going wrong.

‘学徒制’这个词挺有意思的。

Apprenticeships is a funny word.

人人都听过‘学徒’和‘学徒制’，很多人对它都有自己的看法。

Everyone's heard of the word apprentice and apprenticeships, and lots of people will have opinions about them.

但可惜的是，很多持看法的人其实对这事儿了解得并不多。

And unfortunately, a lot of the people who have opinions about them markedly, arguably don't know too much about them.

他们压根没在这一行干过，也没真正接触过学徒。

They've not actually sort of worked in that space or worked with apprentices.

所以这份立场文件是在呼吁一种根本性的转变。

So the Position Paper is arguing for a a bit of a paradigm shift.

它主张应该换种方式来做。

It's arguing for something to be done different.

我们其实不用非得那样，你可以先拿给一些资深技师测试一下，因为学徒制现在确实存在不少问题。

We don't have to, you can test it so we can test it with certain guild master engineers because there is definitely, definitely things going wrong with apprenticeships.

其中一个问题是，学徒制是有资金支持的。

One of the things going wrong is, so apprenticeships are funded.

这些资金，不管怎么分配，有一部分会到雇主手里，但大部分都流向了教育机构。

So the funding, the money, however that sort of filters down, some of it does go to the employer of an apprentice, but most of it is going to an institution.

钱主要去了那些号称负责培训学徒的学院。

It's going to the college where the apprentice is being supposedly trained.

当然，也有一些专门培训水管和暖通学徒的培训中心，它们的情况不太一样。

Now there are specific training centres that only teach plumbing and heating apprentices, and they're a little bit different.

说实话，这些中心比普通学院要好得多。

Arguably they're way way better than colleges.

这并不是在反对学院。

Now this is not against colleges.

也绝对不是在反对学院的老师。

It's definitely not against college lecturers.

我自己就当过老师，在六所学院教过书，那些学院里确实有不少非常出色的教师。

I've been one, I've taught in six colleges and there's some very amazing people that teach in these colleges.

但学院现在有个非常严重的问题。

But colleges do have a massive, massive problem.

今天我们要聊的，是一种不一样的做法。

And what we're gonna talk about today is a different way of doing things.

这一期节目其实就是用大白话解释一下我的立场文件，核心观点是：学徒最主要的老师，其实是他们的雇主。

So this whole episode is basically a layman's explanation of what my Position Paper is all about and it argues that an apprentice, their primary learning facilitator, the people or the entity or the person that's teaching them the most is their employer.

通常来说，学徒每周有四天在雇主那里工作，只有一周去一次学院。

So an apprentice would normally be with their employer about four days of the week and then one day a week they will go to college.

但这里已经出问题了——学徒去学院上课，我收到很多雇主的反馈，说他们把学徒送去学院，效果并不好。

And already we've got a problem there because we've got apprentices going to college and I get lots of feedback from people who've got apprentices and they're sending them to college.

就连肿瘤科医生，二十年来都在为请不到讲师发愁。

Oncologists have been struggling for over two decades to get lectures.

当然，这些课也不一定都叫讲座。

I mean, sometimes they're not always called lectures.

这些职位名称各不相同，有的叫讲师，有的叫导师，但学院就是很难找到合适的人。

All have different names, instructors, tutors, but colleges do struggle to get them.

在这个国家，学徒每周去一天学院，那天他们可能跟着教砖瓦的老师、教木工的老师上课，而学院还在到处找能教管道工的老师。

So there's apprentices in this country that go that one day a week to college and that week they might be getting taught by the brick lecturer or the carpentry lecturer, you know, while the college is trying to find someone that's suitable enough to be a plumbing lecturer.

有些学徒一年里换了六任老师，因为老师来了又走，根本留不住。

And some apprentices have had like in one year, six different lectures because they start, they leave.

全国各地都有学徒去学院，结果发现根本没老师，只能干坐着浪费一整天，这哪行啊。

You've got apprentices up and down the country going to colleges where they haven't got a lecturer, so you know, they're twiddling their thumbs for that day, which isn't great.

学院另一个大问题，也是论文里重点讲的，就是它本身是个机构。

And the other big problem with a college, which is what the paper talks about, that they're an institution.

学院是个庞大又臃肿的组织。

So a college is a big, big sort of bloated entity.

有校长，有高层管理团队，有中层干部，有资深讲师、普通讲师，还有人力资源、保洁、食堂、车间技术员，各种设施人员一应俱全。

It's got a principal, it's got senior leadership team, it's got high management, middle management, obviously it's got senior lectures, it's got lectures, it's got HR, human resource departments, it's got cleaning staff, catering staff, technicians in the workshop, it's got facilities.

这些人都要发工资，可他们全都在为教学徒一门手艺而领薪水。

All these people have to be paid and all these people are getting paid to teach an apprentice a particular craft.

学院的另一个问题是，里面搞的活动太多了。

The other thing with colleges is, you know, there's lots of things going on in the college.

你去那儿可以学美容美发、餐饮，各种各样的课程都有。

You can go there to learn health and beauty, catering, loads and loads of courses.

所以中层和高层管理人员根本不在乎约翰尼或者莎拉能不能成为优秀的水管工。

And so middle management and higher management, senior leadership teams, they're not really worried about whether Johnny or Sarah are going to become good plumbers.

他们关心的是绩效指标、出勤率，还有各种表格能不能填满。

They're worried about KPIs, they're worried about mums on seats and all these boxes being ticked.

这直接影响了最终的结果。

And it affects how it affects the outcome.

我们真正想要的是高质量的学徒，能真正掌握这项重要手艺。

What the outcome we want is we want very good quality apprentices that are learning this important craft.

这篇论文的观点是，其实根本不需要学院，真的不需要。

So the position that this paper takes is that you don't actually need a college and you don't.

回溯到学徒制刚出现的时候，根本没有学院，学徒都是跟着师傅学的。

So if we go back to when apprenticeships first started, there was no colleges, the apprentice was learning off what's called the master.

我们可以回到1563年的《工匠法令》，这名字我老是念不对，叫artifissures。

So we can go back to the statute of artif I can never pronounce this, with artifissures in 1563.

我们要追溯到那么久远的年代。

So we're going back all that way.

那时候，学徒都是跟着师傅学，那什么才算师傅呢？

So your apprentice would be with a master, so who is a master?

师傅就是手艺精湛的人，还得经过同行评审，这才是关键。

So a master was someone that was obviously competent in their craft and they had been peer assessed to be a master and that's the important thing.

那时候没有证书证明你有多厉害，全靠其他师傅说了算：你已经是个熟练工了，交出了你的代表作，我们认可你成为这行的师傅。

There was no certificate saying that they were good, it was all the other masters saying, yes, you're a journeyman, you produced your masterpiece, we now consider you a master of our craft.

现在你可以收学徒了。

You can now take on an apprentice.

学徒只跟师傅学，就这么简单。

So apprentices were only with masters.

这就是我们面临的一个问题。

So this is one issue we've got.

谁都可以送学徒去上大学。

Anyone can send an apprentice to college.

当水管工或者建筑工，根本不需要什么法律资质。

So there's no law, there's no qualifications you need to be a plumber or a builder.

你随时可以开一家公司，今天你可能还在店里打工，明天你就说，我要开一家水管公司。

You can set up a firm, you can be a, I think you could be working in a shop today and then tomorrow I think, I'm gonna set up a plumbing firm.

这事儿完全行得通。

You can do that.

干这个根本不需要执照。

You don't need any licence to do that.

你只要遵守国家的法律法规就行。

You've just got to abide by the laws of the land.

你得遵守建筑规范、水管安装规范这些要求。

So you build regulations, water regulations.

当然，如果你想搞燃气工程，那就是另一回事了。

Obviously, if you wanna do gas, that's a different thing.

你得去申请相应的执照。

You've got to go and get essentially a licence in that.

但任何开 plumbing 公司的人，都可以把孩子送去上大学，当作学徒培养。

But anyone who starts up a plumbing company, which means you could send your son or daughter to college as your apprentice.

如果雇主本身就是主要的培训者，问题就来了。

Now if the employer is actually the primary learning facilitator, you can see the issue there.

学徒学到的很可能是不规范的做法，因为雇主自己也没多少经验。

So the apprentice is gonna be learning kind of poor practise, bad practise because the actual employer isn't that experienced themselves.

这确实是个大问题。

So that's one big issue.

学徒通常跟着的雇主，对行业最新规范并不了解。

Apprentices are generally going to be with employers that may not be up to date with current best practice.

这就成了个麻烦：学校教的是符合规范的做法，可他们回到工作岗位后做的却不是这套，前后矛盾。

So that does become a bit of an issue because if you're teaching them theoretical stuff that's aligned with best practice and then they go back to their workplace and they're not doing that, That's a bit of an issue.

学院这边还有另一个问题。

We've got another issue with colleges.

所以1992年之前，学院都是由地方政府管理的机构，到了1992年，根据《进一步与高等教育法案》，它们变成了独立法人。

So in 1992, there was incorporation Colleges, I think, before 1992, sort of local authority sort of entities.

从那以后，它们更关注招生规模了。

But in 1992, under the Further in Higher Education Act, they turned into independent corporations where they arguably then concentrated on volume.

关键是得把座位坐满。

They need to get bums on seats.

真正目的不是帮人掌握技能，而是人坐满了，再发个证书就算完事。

It wasn't really about helping people to become competent in a trade, it's about bums on seats and then giving them qualifications.

这些职业资格证书叫CASLO，是‘确认特定学习成果获得’的缩写。

Now these qualifications, these vocational qualifications are known as CASLO, which is an acronym C A S L O and it stands for confirming the acquisition of specified learning outcomes.

这个缩写是OFQUAL定的，OFQUAL是负责监管英国资格认证的机构。

Now this acronym was OFQUOTE, OFQUOTE is sort of in charge of qualifications in this country.

他们做了一项关于职业资格的研究，就提出了CASLO这个说法。

They did some research into vocational qualifications and they come up with this term CASLOTE.

意思是确认学习者达到了规定的掌握标准。

Confirming the acquisition of specified learning outcomes.

这意味着，当你在学院教学生时，比如教健康与安全模块，你得花几周时间做PPT讲课，然后他们参加考试，必须通过才行。

What that means is when you're teaching people in a college, let's say you're teaching in the health and safety module, you're gonna have to spend a few weeks doing your powerpoints in the class and then they'll have an exam and they have to pass that exam.

他们做的其实就是完成这些学习目标。

And what they're doing is passing these learning outcomes.

说白了，就是走个过场，打个勾完事。

So it's a bit of a tick box check thing.

问题在于，这些学生学的理论根本没法和实际生活联系起来。

And the problem we've got is these students are learning theory that they can't actually relate to real life.

比如说，教健康与安全时，你得讲脚手架、什么时候该装扶手、什么时候该设踏板、该怎么安装，方方面面都得讲。

So you'll have, let's say a student is learning health and safety, so we have to teach them all about scaffold and the heights you put hand rounds, when you put up a toehold, when you don't and how that should be.

可这些学生连脚手架都没上过。

These students haven't even been out of scaffold.

所以他们根本没法把这些东西和现实联系起来。

So they can't actually relate it to the real world.

讲到冷水系统或者热水系统的时候，市面上有那么多不同类型的热水设备，你得教他们辨认，可他们连这些设备长什么样都没见过。

When you start to teach things like the cold water module or the hot water module, there's loads of hot water systems and of course you're trying to teach them about these different types of hot water systems, they've never seen them, they've never encountered them.

所以他们往往死记硬背，等到坐在电脑前做选择题时，就能选对答案。

So they tend to rote learn so that when they sit in front of that computer and do that multiple choice, they pick the right answer.

我不太清楚现在怎么样了，但每次我教课的时候，他们都可以反复参加这个选择题考试。

And I don't know what it's like now actually but every time I was teaching, they are allowed to take that multiple choice exam multiple times.

表面上看，好像他们已经掌握了这个模块的内容。

So on paper, it says that they've mastered that particular module.

学习目标里写的他们全做到了，考试也过了，行了，恭喜完成！

That was a specified learning outcomes and they've completed them, know, they've passed the exam, hey ho, well done!

他们好像对热水系统了如指掌。

They know all about hot water systems.

其实根本不是，他们只是勉强记住了正确答案。

Well they don't really, they've just tried to remember the right answer.

我们就拿热水系统来举个例子吧。

Let's use that hot water as a bit of an example.

热水系统种类可多了。

So there's lots of hot water systems.

当你在学院教这些学徒时，你会告诉他们，热水系统大致分为两类：集中式和分散式。

When you're teaching these apprentices at college, you're teaching them this kind of hot water systems kind of fall under two categories: centralised systems and localised systems.

而这两类系统又都可以进一步分成即热式和储水式。

And with both of them categories you can then separate them into instantaneous and storage.

集中式系统比如储水罐，属于储水类型，它可以是带排气的，也可以是不带排气的，用电加热的话有浸入式加热器，用燃气的话就是锅炉配储水罐。

So with a centralised system that would be something like your cylinder and that comes under storage where you can have a vented system, you can have an unvented system, they can be electric heated with like immersions or it can be gas, boilers and cylinders.

分散式系统也一样，有即热型，也有储水型；即热型可以是单点供水，也可以是进水控制或出水控制的。

With localised systems, again you can have instantaneous types, you can have storage types with instantaneous, you can have a single point, you can have a inlet controlled, outlet controlled.

热水系统的类型太多了，这些学徒根本没见过，完全没概念。

There's so many of these different types of hot water systems and these apprentices haven't got a clue, they've not seen them.

而且他们缺乏实际场景的体会。

And there's no context.

你当然可以带他们去车间，带着学徒们从教室走到车间，实地看看这些设备，但问题是，那时候车间里往往还有别的班级在上课。

Yes, you can take them into the workshop, you can trudge your apprentices, you know you're sitting with them in the class, can trudge them into workshop to sort of show them some of the systems but when you do that there's going to be another class in that workshop.

这些课程排得满满当当，我以前在学院教书时，每年报二级课程的学生大概有90人。

You know these courses are chock a block so when I was to teach in colleges you generally would have about 90 students apply each year for the level two course.

所以我带一班30个人，想教他们不同类型的水箱时，就会说：好了，咱们去车间看看，我给你们展示一个剖开的水箱。

So I'd be teaching a class of 30 and let's say I'm trying to teach them about different types of cylinder and I say, right, let's go and look in the workshop, I can show you a cutaway of a particular type of cylinder.

但你做不到，你不能带着30个学生直接冲进车间，那儿可能正有其他学生在干活，这涉及安全规定。

You can't do that, you can't just trudge into a workshop that's going have 30 other students in because there's a health and safety thing.

这些学生只好硬着头皮学一些他们完全没见过、根本没概念的东西。

So these poor old students are trying to learn stuff they've just got no idea about.

更好的办法是情境化教学。

Now a better way would be situational learning.

在我的立场文件里——当然得用一堆高大上的词，毕竟读者是政策制定者——提到了一个概念叫‘时间邻近性’。

So in my Position Paper that obviously has to use lots of big words because it's for policy people to read, there's something called temporal contiguity.

简单说，就是把理论教学直接带到现场去，我这篇文件的核心观点就是：理论教学根本不需要在教室里进行。

So what that means is if someone's if you can deliver theory on-site, so the whole point of my position paper is to say you don't need a classroom to deliver theory.

理论当然重要，但完全可以带到现场来讲。

Theory is important but you can deliver theory on-site.

所以这篇文件主张的是‘移动式教学模式’。

So the paper is arguing for a peripotectic model.

‘Peripotectic’这个词是我几年前学会的，我特别喜欢，所以老爱用。

Peripotectic is one of them words I learned a few years ago and it's one of them words I like, so I use it a lot.

它的意思就是从一个地方到另一个地方走动。

What it means is sort of going from place to place.

你可以有个巡回导师，就是那种高水平的讲师，比如负责五个学徒。

So you can have a peripotectic mentor, so that's a high quality sort of lecturer who let's say is in charge of five apprentices.

周一他们去乔·布洛格的水管暖气学徒那儿，周二又去别人那儿。

So on a Monday they go and see Joe Blogg's plumbing and heating's apprentice and on the Tuesday they go and see someone else's.

每次去了，就跟学徒聊一聊，专门腾出一天时间给他，问问：‘这周你干了啥？上一周呢？’

And when they turn up, they have a chat with the apprentice, it's going be that a day especially for that apprentice and they can say what have you been doing this week, past week?

学徒就说：‘哦，这周我们换了个汽缸。’

And the apprentice says oh you know we had to change out a cylinder this week.

然后你就能顺着他们实际干过的事，把相关的理论一点一点讲清楚，特别接地气，不是空谈。

And then you can actually guide the student through all the theory around what they've actually done, so it's very situational, it's not abstract.

你还可以问：‘你觉得换汽缸难不难？做那事儿的时候，有没有考虑到什么安全规范？’

So you can talk to them about well how did you find that hard, was there any health and safety you had to think about when you did that cylinder?

这样你就能把安全规范以一种不空洞的方式融入教学，学生可以随时提问，你和学徒之间也会慢慢建立起一种导师关系，真正把理论教得透彻，因为他们能把学到的知识和实际操作联系起来。

And so you can build health and safety into it in a sort of non abstract way and the student can sort of question you and you build up this mentorship, bond with the apprentice and you can teach them teach them far far better the theory because they're actually relating their theory to the actual work they've done.

但这种事在学院里根本不会发生，你只能一个模块接一个模块地按部就班往下讲。

That does not go on in colleges because you're just literally working through one module then on to the next module then on to the next module.

你教这些学生，这些可怜的孩子们整天学冷水系统、热水系统的理论，可他们连这些系统长啥样都没见过，根本没法把PPT上那些抽象内容和实际联系起来。但如果你在工地现场教理论，完全做得到——我们现在活在一个数字时代，人人都有智能手机，有人还非说教理论就得在教室里，其实根本不是这么回事。

So you're teaching these students, these poor students are learning all the theory about cold water systems, hot water systems and some of the time they haven't got anywhere near these particular types of systems, they just can't relate what you're trying to show them on powerpoints to theory, know, whereas if you're teaching theory on-site, which is possible, we live in this world of digital, know, we've got computers in our pockets, know, some people say oh no, you need a classroom to teach theory, well of course you don't.

而且这还把资金全抽走了。

And it's taking away all the funding.

大部分资金都流向了这些学院。

So most of the funding is going to these colleges.

所以那份立场文件就提出：为什么不干脆先试点一下呢？

So the Position Paper argues why don't we just test something?

要知道，我们这个行业如今已经是全球最重要的行业之一了。

You know our industry is obviously now one of the most important industries on the planet.

那为什么不试试一套新的教学方式呢？

So why don't we just test a new system?

另一个问题是，当政策圈里的人——比如某些慈善机构、智库，或者任何参与供暖行业的人——谈到学徒制改革时，总是带着偏见。

Because the other problem we've got when you have people in the policy world, some of these charities, of these think tanks or anyone actually involved in the heating industry, whenever they write about apprenticeship reform, there's a bias.

在这份立场文件里，我把这种现象叫做‘制度性闭环’。

And in the paper, in this Position Paper, I've called that Institutional Circularity.

意思是，当某个机构打算发布一份关于学徒制的报告时，会成立一个工作组，开始采访相关人员。

So what that means is task forces that get set up to sort of inform a report, let's say a think tank's gonna write a report about apprenticeships, they'll set up a task force, they'll start interviewing people.

这类采访，我已经被找去谈过好多次了。

I've been interviewed loads of times on this sort of stuff.

但问题在于，他们采访的大多是已经身处现有学徒体系中的人。

And the problem is though, they're interviewing lots of people that are already involved in the apprenticeship system.

比如学院，或者像城市与行会这类资格认证机构的人。

So they interview colleges or people involved in awarding organisations like people in City and Guilds and things like this.

这样一来，采访对象本身就带着倾向，他们还在维护一套我认为根本行不通的模式。

So you've already got this bias because the people you're interviewing are still purporting and trying to maintain a model that I don't think works.

当然，也得说明一下，确实有些学院的工作人员会亲自去现场走访学徒。

Now it should be emphasised that there are people that work for colleges that do go out onto site to visit apprentices.

这些是评估员，他们会去现场查看学徒，而学徒在整个培训过程中本应完成一些特定任务。

So these are assessors and they will go out to the apprentice and the apprentice over their course of training is supposed to do some certain tasks.

评估员会去检查他们是否完成了这些任务，并查看照片证据。

The assessor will go out there to check that they've done these tasks and look at the photographic evidence.

然后一切就变成打勾填表，他们会在档案里打勾、写点东西，作为工作证明。

And then it will all be tick box, they'll tick box and write stuff in their portfolio, their evidence of working.

但这里根本不存在教学环节，他们只是去确认有人完成了某些任务，说实话，这并不能证明这些人真的做了这些事。

But again, there's no sort of teaching involved here, they're just going out to see people who've done certain tasks and if I'm honest, it doesn't mean people have done them tasks.

你只要站在一个热水器或者浴缸前面，让雇主给你拍张照，然后把照片放进档案里，评估员可能会问几个问题，事情就过去了，打个勾就完事。

It's very easy to stand in front of a cylinder or a bath, have your employer take a photograph of you and you show that to the assessor that you stick it in your portfolio, the assessor might ask some questions, Bob's your uncle, you've got your tick.

但这并不是我所提倡的模式。

And that's not the model I'm proposing.

我们现有的评估员确实偶尔会去现场，但频率极低；而我主张的是另一种角色——导师。

See we've already got assessors that do go out to site, very rarely, whereas what I'm arguing for is this mentor.

他们真正要做的是在每周一天的理论学习时间里，陪着学徒在实际工作现场帮助他们理解知识。

So they're actually helping the apprentice learn theory out on-site for that one day a week.

这和学院的模式完全不同。

And it's completely different to the college model.

我在论文里已经展示并说明了这两者的区别。

So in the paper I've shown and illustrated the difference.

比如在学院里，学生们是按照固定的理论模块来学习的。

So for instance, a college based model in colleges, these students work towards fixed theoretical modules.

像健康与安全这样的模块就是其中之一。

So you can have modules like you've got your health and safety.

我回想一下当年教书的时候，试着记起那些模块内容。

I'm going back to when I was teaching so I'm trying to think of the module.

那时候还有一个叫‘有效的人际关系’的模块。

You had something like effective working relationships.

讲的就是你该怎么和工地上不同的人打交道，比如项目经理之类的。

So that was all about you know how do you interact with different people that you might find on-site like site managers etc etc.

当然，这些学生有时候根本听不懂你在说什么，因为内容脱离了实际场景。

And of course these students have absolutely no idea what you're talking about sometimes because it's not situational.

你得掌握基本的管道原理、科学知识，还有冷水模块、热水模块、电气模块、卫生模块，每个模块学完之后，学徒都要坐在电脑前做一套选择题。

You've got key plumbing principles, you've got science, you've got cold water module, hot water module, you've got an electrical module, you've got sanitation module and you work through their modules and at the end of each module, the apprentice is down in front of the computer to do a multiple choice.

而我提出的这种以防护为导向的模式是灵活的，以实践经验为基础的理论教学。

Now with the paraprotectic mental model, the one I'm proposing, it's flexible, it's experience led theory.

你直接去工地，问他们最近在做什么，通常都是冷水和热水活儿都碰了。

So you go out to site, you ask them what they've been doing, they've been doing a bit of both cold water and hot water, that's usually the case.

他们刚装过冷水到热水储水箱的连接，那你就可以顺势问他们：这个冷水系统的压力要多少？哪些材料能用在冷水上？因为他们确实参与了现场工作——虽然可能没亲手安装，只是跟着师傅在旁边打下手、递工具，但人是在现场的，这样就把理论和他们实际的经历联系起来了。

They've got a cold to the hot water cylinder, so you then start to ask them questions about that cold water supply, know, what sort of pressure has it got to be, what sort of materials are you allowed to use for cold water, because they are the ones that were working on Now they might not have actually installed it themselves, they just might have been with their employer just watching maybe and passing tools, but they were there at the job, so you're relating theory to what they've actually worked on.

这种事在学院里根本不会发生。

That does not go on in colleges.

学院里都是照本宣科的讲课方式。

So in colleges it's lecture based delivery.

讲课嘛，其实早就有不少研究证明，这种方式对记忆留存效果很差。

So lecture, you know, there's loads of research saying lecture isn't great for memory retention.

像我这样站在前面讲PPT，学生根本记不住。

Someone standing like me lecturing from the front showing powerpoints, people aren't going to remember that.

而这种以实践为导向的思维模式是对话式的，由问题驱动的。

Whereas the peripotectic mental model is dialogic and question led.

导师会不断提出大量问题，当然你在学院里也可以问学生问题，但时间太紧，班上三十个学生，根本做不到一对一指导。

So whoever the mentor is asking lots and lots of questions and that you can ask obviously students questions in a college but you're so time constrained and you've got 30 students so this is just one on one stuff.

学院里教的都是抽象内容。

It's abstract content in the college.

你试图教他们一些从未接触过、从未见过、完全没有经验的东西，而这种以实践为导向的思维模式是贴近实际、现场教学的。

You know, you're trying to teach them stuff they've had no understanding of, they've never seen it, they've never experienced it whereas the parateptic mental model is contextualised, it's live content.

这是一种完全不同的方式，这个行业里理论当然非常重要，但我们现在的教学方式根本不行。

So it's a completely different way of doing things and theory is very, very important in this industry and the way we are teaching it isn't good.

真的非常差劲，可没人能改变这个模式，因为所有关于学徒制和培训的报告，都是由那些负责培训和认证的机构写的。

It really isn't good and no one's kind of able to change the paradigm because all these reports being written about apprenticeships and training are involving the very institutions that deliver the training or qualify it.

所以这里面明显存在利益偏见。

So, you've obviously got inbuilt bias.

我想再给你举几个例子，说明学院式教学有多低效。

So I want to give you some sort of more examples of how ineffective the college based model is.

学生还得学一些科学知识，其中有些内容还挺复杂的。

So there's a bit of science that the students are learning And again, some of the science can be quite complex.

咱们就说热膨胀这类问题吧。

So let's talk, let's thermal expansion and things like this.

他们得弄清楚不同材料的线性膨胀系数。

So they have to learn all about the linear coefficient of different materials.

比如铜和塑料，你知道，加热后它们会膨胀多少？

So things like copper and plastic, you know, how much does that expand when it gets heated?

因为你要是给一栋楼布大量铜管，拐弯、内角、外角，都得留意，管子一热，可是会膨胀的。

Because you know, if you're plumbing up lots of copper around a building, turning corners, internal corners, external corners, you have to be a little bit aware of when that pipework gets hot, it will expand.

我们教的时候，其实就是在讲数学，但他们根本听不懂，只是死记硬背，好应付选择题。

And so we teach them, it's maths really and they haven't really got a clue what you're on about, they just wrote remember stuff so that they pass their multiple choice.

但如果你是在现场，作为一位注重实际的导师，周一去实地看看学徒干的活儿，你就能问：你这次布管的时候，是怎么考虑热膨胀的？

But if you're out there in the context, you're a peritectic mentor, you've gone out for the day to visit this particular apprentice on a Monday and they've done some pipe work, you can then talk about, you know, how have you sort of accounted for expansion?

如果管道真热起来了，你有没有采取措施来应对膨胀？

If the pipe work gets really hot, have you got any measures in place to take up the expansion?

当然，你得教他们数学，但你可以用一种让他们觉得切身相关的方式教，而不是让他们觉得抽象难懂。

And obviously you're gonna have to teach them the maths but you're gonna be able to do it in a way that's gonna be relevant, it's not abstract to them.

你可以带他们到现场，直接指出那些可能因为热胀冷缩出问题的地方。

You can show them actually on-site where there might be some potential problems with expansion.

比如天沟就是个很明显的例子，你知道，塑料在太阳底下热了会膨胀得特别厉害。

I mean, guttering was the obvious choice because obviously plastic, as you know, it will expand quite a lot when that sun, when it's hot.

假设你冬天安装天沟，就得考虑到夏天它可能会膨胀好几毫米。

Let's say you put your guttering up in winter, you have to account for the fact that in summer it's gonna expand by quite a few millimetres.

所以你得在接头处留出膨胀余量，这就是为什么接头里要有伸缩缝。

So that's why you have your expansion line inside your joints that you go up to.

以前我们教这个的时候，学生根本体会不到它的实际意义，因为他们连天沟都没碰过。

And again, when we used to teach this, there was no real, there was no sort of relevance to the students because they hadn't even done gut ring.

大多数人连梯子都没爬过，更别说安装或者搭脚手架了。

Most of them had never even been up the ladder or put it up or the scaffold and put it up.

我们总是在学校里教他们还没干过的活儿的理论，结果他们要么死记硬背，要么就只为了应付那天的多选题记一会儿。

So we're always in a college teaching people theory to stuff they haven't done yet and it just means they remember it or they might remember it for that particular day of the multiple choice.

别忘了，关于多项选择题的研究很多，这些题其实特别容易蒙对，因为四个选项里总有一个明显荒谬到离谱。

And remember there's a lot of research around multiple choices, they're so easy to pass because you get four potential answers, one of them answers is going to be absolutely bonkers.

当然，正确答案肯定有一个，通常还会有一个接近正确的，但另外两个完全不对。

Obviously you've got the right answer, you've generally got another answer that's quite near the right answer but the other two are not.

所以当你答错一道题——比如考完试后告诉你哪些题错了，还能再试一次——你根本分不清哪个才是对的，但你以为自己记住了，其实你连题目问的是啥都搞不清楚。

So when you get that question wrong, let's say you've done your test, you get the question wrong, you're told what questions you got wrong and you've got another attempt at it, you can't even know which one's gonna be the right answer, but it doesn't mean you've remembered it, you've got absolutely no idea of the context perhaps of even what that question was about.

你只是记住了那个选项而已。

You just remembered what the answer might be.

上次你选了A，知道选A错了，这次你就改选C。

You put A last time, you knew what you got it wrong with A, so you're gonna put C this time.

考试就是这么回事。

And this is how it goes.

你一个模块接一个模块地过，每过一个就拿个闪闪发亮的City and Guild证书，他们很清楚：给学员发越多证书，看起来就越有成就感。

You're in module after module after module and you get a nice shiny City and Guild certificate for each module, know they've kept, they've caught on to the the notion of give people as many certificates as possible makes them look good.

我以前写过文章批评过City and Guild，这么多年一直这么讲，那儿的人其实都挺好的，但我批评的是他们这套做法，现在他们自己也挺麻烦的。

I have done a post about City and I've been very critical of City and Gills over the years, lovely people working there, but I'm critical of them and they are in a bit of trouble at the moment.

我不知道你有没有关注那条新闻，慈善委员会正在调查他们，他们确实做了些事。

I don't know if you kept up with that news story, the charities commission is looking into them, they've done something.

其实最近几周我没怎么跟进这事，但他们靠发证书赚了大笔钱，而你、我，还有听这节目的任何人，第二天就能去报名参加。

I haven't been keeping up to date with the story actually over the last few weeks, but they make an awful lot of money from giving people certificates and I, you, anyone listening to this, can take them people the very next day.

这些证书表面上是说，他们已经掌握了所有这些学习目标，但其实没那么回事。

And these certificates are basically saying this where it comes up to this cash flow terminology, it's kind of saying that they've mastered all these different learning outcomes.

根本不是，你随便问他们几个跟证书相关的问题，他们根本答不上来，一点都不知道。

Well, they haven't because you could ask them loads of questions around that certificate that they've just been given and they wouldn't know the answers, wouldn't know them at all.

这种现象在热泵资格认证这类事情上也很常见。

And this kind of goes on with things like the heat pump qualification.

人们参加个三到四天的课程，两天后你去问他们，几乎全忘光了。

People go on that three day, four day course, you can question them two days later and they will have forgotten nearly all of that stuff.

关于人会忘记学过的东西，这方面的证据多得很。

And that's, there's lots of evidence around people forgetting stuff.

这叫遗忘曲线。

It's called the forgetting curve.

心理学家艾宾浩斯最早提出这个观点，后来又有巴特莱特等其他心理学家继续研究，这都是一百多年前的事了。这么多年来，相关研究多得数不清。事实就是，你光听别人讲，哪怕对方用PPT演示，你的大脑也不是设计来记住所有内容的，你肯定会忘掉很多。但如果你参与主动学习——比如不断向学生提问——效果就完全不同了。可问题是，在学校里你做不到这一点，因为时间有限，你没法挨个儿问每个学生。

A psychologist called Ebbinghaus was the first to sort of think about this and then there's another psychologist after that called Bartlett, since, and this is over a 100 years ago, since then loads and loads of research, if you're just around the fact that if you're just listening to someone, even if they're using powerpoints, your brains aren't designed to sort of store everything, you're going to forget a lot of Whereas if you're doing active, what's called active learning, so you're asking the student lots of questions, which you can't do in a college, you can't individually go around to each student and keep asking questions because you're time constrained in a college.

别忘了，学校的根本目的就是把人登记通过，好让教室坐满，拿到更多经费。

Remember, colleges basically want you to tick that person off and pass them and get more bums on seats and more funding.

所以我在这份论文里主张的模式是：根本不需要学校，你真的不需要学校。

So the model I'm arguing for in this position paper is we don't need a college, you don't actually need a college.

经费应该直接给雇主，给那个负责传授理论的巡回导师。

The funding should go directly to the employer and that peripotectic mentor who's gonna be delivering the theory.

雇主和导师之间自然会建立起信任和默契。

And obviously the employer and that mentor builds up a bond in the relationship.

实际上，有太多雇主，尤其是水管工和暖通工程师，一直在联系我。

I mean there's so many employers, so many plumbers and heating engineers are contacting me all the time.

我甚至有几个微信群，里面全是抱怨他们学徒去上学的雇主。

I mean, WhatsApp groups with some of them who are always moaning about their apprentices going to college.

我有个学徒这周去学校了，结果没人上课，他一整天只能在食堂坐着。

You know, my apprentice went to college this week and there was no one there to teach him, they just had to sit in the canteen all day.

当然了，如果学徒不去上学，就会因为缺勤被问责，毕竟学校特别看重签到记录，那张表可重要了。学校那边天天打电话问：‘比利今天怎么没来？’可那边的师傅心里真想说：‘是啊，我宁可让他在这儿干活，反正学校也没人教他。’

And of course, if apprentice didn't go to college, they then get in trouble for not turning up because it's all about registration, mean that register is quite an important document in the college, and you'll have people phoning out, oh, Billy wasn't college today and the poor old player feels like saying, well yeah, because I'd rather have him here at work because you've got actually no teacher to teach him yet.

这些学校真是荒唐透顶，简直没法说。

So that's so bizarre places these colleges, they really are.

我再说一遍，学校里其实有很多很棒的人，不管是高层领导还是普通职员，他们都在认真做事，但整个体系已经彻底出了问题。

Like I say, lots of wonderful people working there all across the board, whether they're in senior leadership teams, management, they're doing a job, but the actual paradigm is broken.

完全崩溃了。

It's completely broken.

我们现在根本教不出大师了，第一，是因为我们早就没了那种师徒纽带。

We're not teaching masters anymore cause A) we haven't got this master bond.

我在论文里提到‘师徒纽带’这个词，就是因为过去学徒制本来就是这样——跟一位真正有本事的师傅学艺。

I've talked about it as being a master bond in the Position Paper because that's exactly what apprenticeships used to be.

以前，学徒是跟着一位被公认有本事的师傅学的。

You were apprenticed by a master, someone that was deemed competent.

现在我们根本没法评估谁有这个能力，除非像我搞的这个行会那样，靠同行互评。

Now there's no way we can deem competence at the moment, apart from sort of what I've set up this guild, which is peer assessment.

你手里拿着一个由行会颁发的证书，但这根本不算官方认可的资质，你凭这个开了自己的水管公司，还收了侄子或侄女当学徒——这证书完全不能证明你有资格教人。

So just because you've got a sitting guild diploma certificate, which is not a recognised qualification, and you've set your own plumbing company up and you took on your niece or your nephew as an apprentice, that certificate does not mean you're competent.

现在外面教学徒的，很多根本就是不合格的人。

So we've got incompetent people teaching our apprentices out on-site.

这话听起来可能有点刺耳，但事实就是如此。

Now that might sound a bit harsh but that is the reality.

我们一直在延续错误的做法。以前我教人的时候，会讲补偿性控制，比如学徒在雇主那儿有没有补贴，但至少大家心里都有数，知道他们最终要回雇主那儿去。可现在呢？雇主根本不知道这些，随便就把人派出去干。

And we're perpetuating bad practice and it's things like this, I used to teach people about compensated control, whether compensation, no compensation for boarders to apprentices, but you just knew that they were gonna go back to their employer, their employers haven't heard of this stuff and they're just putting boarders in on off.

你教他们的理论，全都是他们实际工作中根本碰不到的东西。等他们自己单干了，年纪大了，二十多岁干起水管和暖通，做的还是当年雇主那一套，这根本不是标准做法。

So you're teaching them theory around stuff that they're not working on and they end up, if they go on their own, you know, they get older, they're in their 20s and they're now plumbing and heating and they're doing exactly the same things that their employer did and that's not to best practise.

目前的学徒制，实际上是在不断复制错误的做法。

So the apprenticeship model at the moment perpetuates bad practise.

当然，如果学徒碰上特别优秀的师傅，那也能学到好东西，确实也有些非常出色的工程师。

Obviously it perpetuates good practise if the apprentices were if someone were very, very good and there's obviously some very, very good engineers out there.

所以这份立场文件的核心，就是想让政策制定者明白：我们完全可以用一种新的方式来做这件事。我特意写成他们能直接引用、能当依据的格式，这正是我写它的目的。

So the whole point of this Position Paper is to help policy people understand that there is a new way of doing things and it's been written in a format that policy people can cite and reference and that's the reason I wanted to do it.

我会继续写更多这类报告，毕竟我有这个优势。

And I'll be doing a lot more of these types of papers because obviously I've got the advantage.

我可以直接问行会里的工程师们，实际现场到底是什么情况？

I can ask the guild engineers, you know, what's happening at ground level?

据说‘真实情况’这个词，在政策圈子里是常用术语。

And apparently this term ground truth is a term used in policy world.

政策制定者想了解这个行业时，往往不知道该找谁，因为他们历来都是去问那些大机构。

So policy people, when they're trying to get information about this industry, they struggle knowing who to ask because historically they've gone to the big entities and asked them about our industry.

这有什么奇怪的呢？

Why wouldn't they?

他们一直去找像城市与行会这样的认证机构，问我们行业的状况。

They've gone to the awarding organisations like City and Gills to ask them about our industry.

他们也会找行业组织，比如皇家特许 Plumbing and Heating 学会、APHC、热泵协会、HHIC，或者直接问英国燃气这样的大公司，但这些地方都有偏见。

They've gone to our industry bodies, know, like the Chart Institute Plumbing and Heating or the APHC or heat pump association or the HHIC or they go to the big entities like British Gas to get information but of course there's bias there.

如果他们真去问问那些被同行公认的优秀工程师——就像过去那样，靠同行评估来认定水平——比如当年的石匠大师，只有欧洲其他大师都认可你，你才算真正的大师。

If they actually went to engineers that are deemed good by each other, peer assessment which is exactly how it used to work back in the day, you know, if you were a master stonemason, you were only a master stonemason because the other masters in Europe said you were a master.

你是通过同行评估认定的。

You were peer assessed.

如果你在某件事上很出色，其他真正懂行的人一眼就能看出来。

If you're good at something, you're good at anything, other people that are really, really good at it recognise that competence.

所以这份立场文件的核心，就是呼吁一场范式转变。

So the whole point of this Position Paper is to argue for a paradigm shift.

你可以验证，用一个小规模的试验环境就能测试这个模式是否有效，比如找五位顶尖工程师，给他们资金去带学徒。

You can test it, you can test the model works with a little sandbox, you know, so you can just have, let's say five master engineers and they get funded to take on apprentices.

完全不涉及任何学院或机构。

No college, no institution involved whatsoever.

这是一种去中心化的模式。

This is a decentralised paradigm.

做这件事，就应该用去中心化的方式。

This is a decentralised way of doing it.

当然，资金最终还是来自纳税人。

Now obviously funding is coming from the taxpayer.

所以得有一整套机制来保障这一点。

So there's all got to be sorts of mechanisms in place to protect that.

这得靠政策制定者去考虑，但现实是，每周都有数百万资金被浪费——不只是给水管和暖气学徒上大学的钱，还有大量所谓的文凭学生，每年从学校毕业，涌入各类职业课程，比如餐饮、酒店服务，或者泥瓦工、木工、电工、水管工，但他们拿不到完整资格认证，拿不到NVQ，也没有雇主愿意收留他们。

So that's up to the policy people to think about that, but let's face it, millions are being wasted every week funding and it is millions every week because it's not just plumbing and heating apprentices to go to college, you've got plumbing and heating what I would call diploma students so that there's thousands and thousands of young people going to college every year, enrolling on to college every year from school, who go on vocational courses, whether it's catering, hospitality, you know, working in hotels or whether it's bricklaying, carpentry, electrics, plumbing, but they're not getting the full qualification, not getting an NVQ, they've got no employer that's employing them.

这在我们行业确实是个大问题。

I mean, that's a bit of a problem in our industry.

雇主普遍不太愿意收学徒，这也很合理，毕竟风险大、成本高，保险费用也会上涨，而水管和暖气行业的学徒还多出一个麻烦。

Employers are quite reluctant to take on an apprentice and quite right, know, it's a big, big, it's a big ask for them because their insurances go up, it costs them money and with plumbing and heating apprentices, there's an added extra problem.

如果是汽车维修工或者油漆工，一般每天准时收工，把学徒安全送回家。

So if you're a car mechanic or you're a painter, you generally down tools at the same time every day and you get your apprentice safely home.

因为法律规定学徒每周工作时间有限，不可能让他们干到晚上九点。

Because apprentices are only allowed to work a certain amount of hours a week and you can't really keep an apprentice there till 09:00 at night.

但在我们这行，水管和暖气，有时候确实得加班。

Now in our game, plumbing and heating, sometimes you do have to stay late.

比如你遇到燃气泄漏，或者水管爆了，又或者整个楼的马桶全堵了，这种事总得有人处理。

If you've got someone, you know, there's something you've got a bit of gas leak somewhere, or you might have a water leak somewhere or the sanitation, none of the toilets are flushing.

你得留下来把活儿干完。

You kind of stay there to get the job done.

不能一到五点或五点半就撂挑子，说明天再继续。

You can't just sort of down tools at five, half five, say I'll see you in the morning.

你得把事情做完，这就意味着学徒可能会待到很晚。

You've got to try and get the job done, which means your apprentice could be on-site quite late.

这确实是个大问题，因为法律上不允许让16岁的孩子待到晚上九点，还得开车送他们横穿伦敦或者别的地方回家，所以 Plumbing 和 Heating 行业的学徒，大多都是雇主的家人或非常亲近的朋友。

Now that's quite a problem, that's quite problematic because legally, you know, you're not allowed to keep a young 16 year old out till 09:00 and drive them across London or wherever you've got to drive across to get them home, which is why you tend to find most of the apprentices in plumbing and heating are gonna be family members or very close friends to their employers.

所以大多数学徒要么在大公司工作，要么就是雇主的子女。

So most of the apprentices either at all were either employed by big companies or they were the sons or daughters of their actual employer.

这正好说明，如果我们想尝试去中心化的做法，不妨先在 Plumbing 和 Heating 行业试试。

So this is actually an argument why if we're going to test a decentralised way of doing things, let's do with the plumbing and heating industry.

RDR 行业现在非常重要，我们就先在这个领域测试一下这种新模式。

RDR industry is extremely important now so let's just test this different paradigm in our industry.

当然，有人会问：在学院里，我们怎么知道他们真的学了这些？比如健康与安全模块、冷水系统模块，这些不都只是打勾完成的吗？

Now there'll be people, obviously people who will say well how do we know in a college you know that they've learned this, know they've done their health and safety module, know they've done their cold water module and it's all tick box.

如果你在现场讲理论，你怎么知道学徒到底学到了什么？

How do you know what an apprentice has learned out on-site if you're delivering the theory out on-site?

现在有很多数字工具我们可以用。

Well, there's lots of digital tools nowadays we can use.

我们可以用一个数字能力档案。

We can have a digital competence ledger.

我在论文里提到过，可以记录GPS时间戳，也可以录制对话视频，比如你和学生讨论专业问题的全过程，这些都能存进数字能力档案里。

So that's what I've called in the paper, you can have GPS stamped logs, you can have video reasoning, so you can actually video your conversations with the student and chatting with them, professional discussions, and it can all be logged on a digital competence ledger.

在学院里，他们确实有数字系统。

Now in colleges, they do have digital systems.

但很多老师根本不会用，因为系统隔几年就换一次。

A lot of the lecturers don't know how to use them because they tend to get changed every few years with using a new system.

我女儿现在的学校就是这种情况。

I mean, this is going on in my daughter's school at the moment.

以前我们家长都能通过一个下载好的APP看到孩子的所有作业。

One minute us parents are used to seeing all their homework, etcetera, etcetera, on one app that you had to download.

现在换了新应用，大家都得重新适应，很多学院的老师虽然得用这些数字系统，但真正用得好的却寥寥无几。

Now they've changed the app and we've all got So you'll often find a lot of the people teaching in the college that they have to have these digital systems in place, but that one's really using them effectively.

但如果是这种一对一的指导关系，有位贴心的导师，既能教理论，又能和雇主建立稳固的联系，这种关系就完全不同了。

Whereas if you've this one on one bond, you've got this paraprotective mentor, so they're mentoring the student, they're teaching the student theory, they've got a relationship, a really good relationship with the employer.

这就形成了三方协作：雇主、学徒和导师，大家紧密配合，导师还能随时跟雇主沟通，比如问问对方：你觉得这孩子将来能行吗？

So it's like this three thing going on, you've the employer, the apprentice and this mentor, and everyone's working together and the mentor can be chatting to the employer, you know, do you think they're gonna be doing this in the future?

他们对电工活儿特别感兴趣，下次你家请电工来布线，不妨让学徒在一旁看看，亲身体验一下。

They show some real sort of, they seem to really like the electrics, next time you've got your electrician out sort of wire up, get the apprentice to have a little look at that.

你可以根据学徒的实际需求灵活安排学习内容，而在学院里，这种事根本就没人做。

And you can really work around what the apprentice needs to learn, whereas in colleges that is not happening at all.

当然，确实有位巡回评估员偶尔会去现场看看。

So yes, you've got a periprotective assessor that will sometimes go out on-site.

我说的‘偶尔’去现场，是真有人两年都没见过评估员一面。

And when I say sometimes get on-site, I've known apprentices that haven't seen their assessor for two years.

我继子就是个电工学徒，我那时候在教书，对这个行业再熟悉不过了。

I mean, my stepson was an apprentice electrician, you know, obviously I was teaching at times and knew that industry inside out.

我跟你说，你见过你的评估员了，他们确实去过现场。

And I would say to you, you've seen your assessors, your assessor's been out.

我听说有个学徒整整两年都没见过评估员一次。

And I think it was two years before they saw their assessor out on-site.

但在这个模式下，辅导老师每周都会亲自去拜访这位学徒。

Whereas with this model, the paraprotectic mentor is going out once a week to visit that particular apprentice.

比如周二，他们会去见乔·布洛格斯，那个学 plumbing 和 heating 的徒弟。

So on a Tuesday, they'll go out and see Joe Bloggs, plumbing and heating's apprentice.

周三呢，就会去见萨拉·布洛格斯，也是学 plumbing 和 heating 的。

On the Wednesday, they'll go out and see, you know, Sarah blogs, plumbing and heating's apprentice.

所以他们每周每天都安排去看不同的学徒。

And so they have an apprentice for every day of the week that they go out and see.

那这些辅导老师该怎么认证呢？

So how do we license these paraprotectic mentors?

其实有不少前讲师或者现任讲师特别优秀，他们很清楚学校这套教学模式问题很多，根本行不通，你可以通过理论考核来评估他们的能力。

Well, there's some fantastic ex lecturers out there or lecturers out there that are really good, who understand that the college model they are teaching within isn't great, part of its crap, and you could, you peer assess their competence with theory.

所以其实有很多办法可以做。

So there's all sorts of ways you can do it.

但我们现在最大的问题在于，所有谈论学徒制、谈论改革的人，都来自那个把事情搞砸的机构。

But the big big problem we've got is at the moment everyone talking about apprenticeships, everyone talking about reform kind of comes from the institution that's mucking it up.

我们必须摆脱这种机构化的模式。

We need to get away from that institutional model.

以前根本不是这样的，几百年前，你想当个剑术大师，那就整天跟着剑术大师练。

It never used to exist, know, back in the day, hundreds of years ago, if you wanted to be a, I don't know, master swordsman, you spend all your days training with the master swordsman.

你不会有一天跑去学院，坐在台下听个讲师对着PPT讲课。

You don't spend one day going across to a college and being taught by some lecturer in front of a PowerPoint.

那讲师自己可能根本不懂他们在讲什么。

It probably doesn't even really know what they're talking about.

这又是另一个问题。

And that's another issue.

这还是学院里另一个大问题。

That's another, another big issue in colleges.

很多老师、讲师，不管怎么称呼，其实自己从来没真正下过现场干过这行。

So a lot of the tutors, instructors, lecturers, whatever they call them have actually never been out on-site themselves and done the job.

我教过不少人，你在学院讲课时，大部分学生都是十六七岁到十八岁左右的年轻人。

So I've taught people, so when you're to teaching colleges, obviously most of your cohort, most of your students are going be in the 16 to 17, 18 year old age group.

不过偶尔也会遇到我们说的成年学生。

But you do sometimes have what we would call mature students.

我记得教过一位先生，他以前是警察，提前退休了，当时应该五十多岁，还想继续工作，挺喜欢当水管工或暖通工程师这个想法。

So I remember teaching a nice gentleman, he's from the police, kind of retired early from the police, he's still in his 50s I think and he wanted to carry on working and he quite liked the idea of being a plumber or heating engineer.

于是他来学院读文凭课程，很快发现，那些听起来很漂亮的证书其实并不算完整资质。

So he's come to college and he's doing his diploma certificate and he quickly learns that the certificates, all these wonderful sit in girl certificates he will get are not actually the full qualification.

他没有NVQ资格，那时候拿NVQ跟现在可能有点不一样，但根本不需要先当学徒。

He's not got an NVQ and to get an NVQ, it might be a tiny bit different now, but to get an NVQ back then you didn't actually have to have an apprenticeship.

你只要能证明自己在雇主那儿完成过一些具体任务就行。

You just had to show that you've done some specific tasks with your employer.

这位前警察特别喜欢理论部分，所有选择题考试都考得满分。

So anyway, this ex Copper, he loved the theory, you know, 100% in all his exams, multiple choice exams.

后来他意识到，其实是学院主动找他，问他：‘你愿意来教课吗？’要教课的话，他得有完整的BQ资质。于是学院安排他和另一位讲师搭档，那位讲师自己还开着公司，平时周末也会接些活儿。

And he realised, well, actual, the actually college approached him and said, 'yeah would you like to teach it?' Now to teach it, he did have, he would have had have the full qualification in BQ, so what the college did was they put him with one of the other lecturers who still had his own company, self employed company, he would still do sort of jobs here and there at the weekends.

于是这位前警察就跟着那位讲师，一共去了五次现场，参与了两三个项目。

And so that ex Copper would go out, I think he went out five times on-site with this other lecturer on a couple of jobs.

他本人其实没动手干活，只是站在项目现场拍了点照片。

He didn't actually do the jobs, he just got photographed in front of the jobs.

学院的评估人员把该填的表都填了，该拍的照片也都拍齐了。

The assessors for the college ticked all the boxes they needed to tick, did all the photographs that need to tick.

后来他顺利拿到了NVQ证书，就在第二年，我教他的那一年，他就成了老师。

He's now got his NVQ and he was a teacher the very next year I taught him.

现在他教年轻人，说不定能激励他们，培养他们成为会独立思考的人，明白自主学习的重要性。

So he's now teaching young people and he might be good at he might be able to inspire the young people and get them to become critical thinkers to know the importance of self directed learning.

我不是说他不是个优秀的引导者，但我想说的是，现在有很多讲师自己根本没怎么在实地干过这些活。

I'm not saying he wasn't a great facilitator of learning, but what I'm saying is there's a lot of lecturers out there who've hardly done any of this stuff on-site themselves.

而我提出的这种新模式里，兼职导师绝不会是这种人，他必须既懂行业实操，也懂理论知识。

Now with this particular model I'm proposing, paratectic mentor won't be one of them people, it would be someone that does know this industry and also the theory.

当然，雇用学徒的雇主也会得到同行优秀工程师的认可。

And obviously the employer that's employing the apprentice is also going to be deemed competent by their peer network of other very good engineers.

所以我们这是在回归 apprenticeship 最初的样子——学徒跟着师傅，让好的做法得以传承，而不是延续错误的做法。

So we're going right back to how apprenticeship used to be, you know, the apprentices with the master, so you perpetuate good practice rather than bad practice.

这大概就是学徒制度的一个简要历史。

So that's basically a little potted history of the apprenticeship system.

这个播客节目是配合那份政策文件一起推出的。

This is sort of a podcast episode that goes hand in hand with that policy paper.

我会把这份政策文件发在我的通讯里，很多读者可能并不熟悉政策领域，会纳闷这到底在讲什么。

So I'm sending this policy paper out on my newsletter and a lot of my readers might not be from the policy world and will think what on earth all this about?

所以这个节目就是为了帮你搞清楚，这份立场文件到底在提倡什么。

So this episode is just designed to help you understand what this Position Paper is proposing.

非常感谢收听。

Thank you very much for listening.