613 《风骚律师》内部揭秘

但对你来说，那种准备过程是什么样的？

What was that what was that prep like, though, for you?

这是一个赤裸裸的人。

It's the man laid bare.

看。

Look.

让我们来谈谈《绝命毒师》。

Let so let's talk about Breaking Bad.

《绝命毒师》并不是一部热门剧集。

Breaking Bad was not a hit show.

别忘了。

Don't forget.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而这一切都变了，我走进《绝命毒师》时，并没有意识到它会成为一种现象，有布莱恩·克兰斯顿、亚伦·保尔，以及这个全球范围内的巨大热门剧集阵容。

And that changed I wasn't walking into Breaking Bad, this phenomenon with, you know, Bryan Cranston and Aaron Paul and and this cast of this worldwide massive hit.

不。

No.

我当时看的是一部几乎没人看过、也没人谈论的剧集，只有少数评论家在关注，而《广告狂人》却无处不在，占据着每一块广告牌、每一场对话、每一本杂志，以及它的所有时尚、风格和气派。

I was walking into a show that very few people had seen or nobody was talking about except some critics, and Mad Men was owning everything all the time, every billboard, every conversation, every magazine, all the fashion of of it, and the style and the swagger of that show.

它无处不在。

It was just everywhere.

所以，它并没有像你想象的那样令人畏惧，或者像现在有些人可能会认为的那样，因为《绝命毒师》随着时间的推移，证明了自己可能是过去二十年最具影响力的电视剧。

So, it wasn't intimidating in the way you think of it or or someone might now think of it because Breaking Bad is, over time, proved itself to be probably the, of the most impactful TV show of the last twenty years.

但当时完全不是这样，事实上，它被许多其他剧集掩盖了光芒。

But it wasn't at the time at all, and in fact, was overshadowed by many many other shows.

所以我唯一知道的是，这是一部剧情剧，而且在我看来，它对自己非常认真。

So the the one thing I knew was it was a drama, and that, you know, it seemed to me was serious about itself.

我不想把它当成笑话，或者不重要的剧集来对待，因为我不确定。

I didn't wanna treat it like it was a joke or, not an important show because I I don't know.

也许我说不清自己是从哪里产生的这种感觉：我最好尊重这个局面。

Maybe I don't know where I got the sense that, like, I better respect this situation.

我的角色，你知道的，相当夸张，尤其是当你第一次看到他出现在广告里时，这和我以前在《Mr. Show》里演的律师之类角色或那种广告非常相似。

My character, you know, is pretty broad, especially when you first see him and he's on the ad, and it's just very much like a lot of mister Show stuff I did where I did a lawyer or something like that or doing an ad like that.

所以我对这一点感到自在，但同时也对如何把握基调感到不确定。

So I felt comfortable with that, but also, like, uncertain about how to hit the tone.

但我不知道。

But I don't know.

我真的非常喜欢和布莱恩一起拍的那场戏，就是第一场大戏。

I really, I love doing that scene with Brian, that first big scene.

我觉得布莱恩通过他的投入、表演和气场帮助我找到了正确的方向。

And I felt like Brian helped dial me in with his commitment and performance and presence.

但我也感到很自在。

And yet I also felt comfortable.

我喜欢那样。

I I did like that.

我喜欢这种概念化的表演方式。

I like that level of concept acting.

你知道吗？

You know?

这是真实的世界。

It's it's the real world.

你所做的更小的选择，相对于周围更接地气的世界观来说，反而显得更重要。

And, the smaller choices you make are bigger in relation to the concept of the world around you, which is more grounded.

所以我非常喜欢。

So I liked it a lot.

而且，你知道，在我职业生涯中的许多喜剧节目中，他们总是要求我表现得更夸张一些。

And, you know, and in many comedy shows that I did in my career, I would be asked to get bigger.

更夸张一些。

Get bigger.

要更大胆。

Be bigger.

所以，能出演一部不需要我表现得更夸张的剧集，真是太好了。

And so this was a great thing to be in a show where I wasn't asked to be bigger.

我喜欢这一点。

I like that.

我喜欢他们似乎欣赏我所呈现的表演方式。

I like that they sort of liked where I was pitching my performance.

此外，因为我执导过一些电影，所以我对镜头如何影响表演有了更好的理解。

Additionally, I had some because I directed some movies, I had better understanding of what lenses do to a performance.

我知道当摄像机像那样靠近时——在喜剧片中你通常不会这样做，你一般不会把摄像机靠得太近，或者只用中景和远景之类的镜头。

And I knew that when the camera came in as it did, which you don't usually do in comedy, you don't bring the camera in close or have a usually have two shots and wider shots and stuff.

我知道当他们用40、50甚至更长焦距的镜头靠近拍摄时，我可以表现得更内敛，观众依然能感受到。

I knew that when they brought that camera in with the lenses of 40 or 50 or, or even more, that I could be smaller and it would read.

我真的喜欢这一点。

And I really like that.

我很高兴自己有机会去尝试这种表演方式。

I really like that I could I had the opportunity to go there.

我以为这只会持续大概三集左右。

I figured it would be just for, you know, three episodes.

但我确实做了。

But I I did.

我记得我当时明白、理解并享受了这个过程，同时还在努力适应，因为我对这部剧并不熟悉。

I do remember knowing it, understanding it, and enjoying it, and and also still trying to find my feet because I didn't know the show.

我提到过，我只在飞机上看了一小段，大约十到十五分钟。

And I've shared that I've only I only watched about ten or fifteen minutes on the plane.

你知道，我有小孩子，家里有两个小娃的时候，你总是精疲力尽。

You know, I had little kids, and you're just kind of exhausted all the time when you have two little kids at home.

你就，嗯，是的。

And, you just yeah.

我当时在写剧集，忙自己的事，只是想了解一下这部剧的风格，我确实做到了。

And I was writing shows and doing my own stuff, and I just wanted to get a sense of the show, and I did that.

而且，我不知道该怎么说。

And it and I I don't know.

感觉很好。

It felt good.

然后，我想你还有一个问题。

And then this I think you had a second question.

哦，吉米或詹姆斯的四个版本。

Oh, the four iterations of Jimmy of James.

我的意思是，这对我来说简直是一种享受。

Well, I mean, that's just a joy for me.

我的意思是，我之所以喜欢滑稽小品，是因为我喜欢扮演不同的人物，体验各种故事理念和创意。

I mean, I'm attracted to sketch comedy because I like playing different people and seeing different sort of ideas and concepts of story.

我喜欢从一个角色切换到另一个角色，即使这部剧并不差，我依然能在这部剧中做到这一点。

I like moving around from one to the next, and I got to do that in this show even though it's not bad at all.

但你知道，我以前跟人说过，我会有一场戏，三页纸的场景，他正在欺骗别人，卖手机，把手机卖给那些不靠谱的人，整整三页全是喜剧。

But, you know, I've told people before I'll have a scene on one there'll be a three page scene where he's conning somebody, selling cell phones, giving cell phones out to skeevy people, and it's pure comedy for three pages.

然后，过两页之后，却变成了一段安静的剧情，再过十页，又是一个极其真挚、紧张激烈、高风险的时刻。

And then, you know, two pages later is kind of quiet drama, and ten pages later is incredibly earnest kind of high, you know, tension, high stakes moment.

所以，某种程度上，扮演吉米的不同版本，以及这个角色的塑造方式，带来了那种动态张力。

So it just it almost in that way, the experience of playing different iterations of Jimmy and the way in which this character was written, the the the dynamic tension.

这不就是我们在漫画里锻炼肌肉时学到的吗？

Isn't that what we learned in comic books for growing our muscles?

动态张力的秘密？

Dynamic the secrets of dynamic tension?

是的。

Yes.

我认为动态张力的秘密让这个角色成为我所能拥有的最棒的角色。

I think the secrets of dynamic tension made this a a great, the greatest role I could ever have.

我再也不会有这么好的角色了。

I'll never have a role this good.

没关系。

It's okay.

根本没有写出来。

There aren't any written.

我哪儿都看不到。

I don't see them anywhere.

我不觉得有人能演绎出我所接触到的那种丰富音调，但你知道，这真是最棒的。

I don't see anyone getting to that variety of tone that I got to do, but it was you know, it's just the greatest.

这是最棒的。

It's the greatest.

你知道，听我说。

I you know, listen.

我们都明白，在这个行业里，你会遇到这样的机会。

We all know that in this business, you get these opportunities.

如果你幸运、长寿、坚持下去，你会经历起起落落，获得一些机会，有的成功了，有的没成功，你只能接受这一切，知道这就是必然会发生的事。

If you're lucky and you live long and you hang in there, you know, you go up and down and you get chances and some of them pan out and some don't, and you just have to go with that and know that that's what's gonna happen.

我认为我自信的一点是，我再也不会有角色能拥有如此动态、如此多样的表现了。

And one thing I think I know confidently is I'll never have a role with this level of dynamic, variety in it.

这没什么，就这样吧。

And that's that's just okay.

你不能指望，我不能去追求那种角色。

That's you can't be I can't be looking for that.

我不能坚持要求那样。

I can't be insisting on that.

我不能做什么？

I can't be what is that?

你什么时候再给我一次？

When are you gonna give me that again?

你知道，这种事情不会再发生了。

You know, it's not gonna happen again.

这样的角色根本没人写。

They aren't written.

根本不存在这样的角色。

They don't exist.

我们只是运气特别好。

We just got extremely lucky.

我必须把所有功劳都归给《绝命毒师》。

I I have to give Breaking Bad all the credit for it.

《绝命毒师》为观众建立的善意和培养的观剧习惯。

The goodwill and the training that Breaking Bad did with the audience.

它所培养的善意，让我们得以延续到我们的剧集中，同时也训练观众仔细观看、关注细节，并接受这种叙事方式。

The goodwill that it engendered and that we got to carry into our show and the training training the audience to watch things closely, care about small things, and allow for this sort of window.

因为《绝命毒师》，正如大家所知，如果愿意的话，也可以非常幽默。

Because breaking battle also, as everyone knows, could be very funny if you you know, it depended more.

它在喜剧元素上不如《风骚律师》那么直接明了。

It was less overtly funny than Brit Better Call Saul was

对。

Right.

在它的幽默时刻中。

In its comic moments.

但《绝命毒师》也让观众明白，即使在沉静致命的剧情中，也能蕴含精彩而有趣的喜剧元素。

But but Breaking Bad also got the audience to grasp that there could be really juicy fun comedy in deadly quiet drama as well.

所以我们也能利用这一点来创作。

And, and so we got to work with that too.

我的意思是，彼得，我希望你不会觉得被冒犯。

I mean, look, Peter, I hope you don't feel insulted.

我不认为你听了我说的话会感到被冒犯——没有《绝命毒师》，就不会有《风骚律师》。

I don't think you do by me saying without Breaking Bad, there's no Better Call Saul.

我不是指创造了索尔这个角色。

And and I don't mean inventing the character of Saul.

我的意思是，我们能够借着《绝命毒师》的热潮进入我们的剧集，这对于我们制作像《风骚律师》这样如此突破传统框架的剧集是必不可少的。

I mean, the wave that we got to ride into our show just was necessary to do a show as off the, traditional, parameters as Better Call Saul is.

我完全同意你的看法。

I I couldn't agree with you more.

我的意思是，我们都说过，你可以有《绝命毒师》而没有《风骚律师》，但《风骚律师》如果没有《绝命毒师》就根本不会存在。

I mean, I think we both said that, you know, you could have Breaking Bad without Better Call Saul, but Better Call Saul would never exist without Breaking Bad.

《绝命毒师》给了我们做各种疯狂事情的能力，比如让迈克拥有几乎独立的平行故事线，回溯过去，我的意思是，所有这些方面。

We had the Breaking Bad gave us the ability to do all these nutty things like have a having Mike have more or less a separate parallel storyline and go back and I mean, just everything about it.

而且，你知道，我们正在制作一部关于一个腐败、能说会道的律师的剧集，而这个角色在很多季里甚至都还没正式登场。

And also, you know, we're making a show about a corrupt corrupt, fast talking attorney who he the guy doesn't even become for many seasons.

所以，这一切就是一切。

So it's just there's so there's just I mean, it's everything.

但我觉得，更微妙的是，鲍勃，我同意你的看法，那就是基调。

But it's also, I think, more subtly, Bob, and I agree with you, is the is the tone.

你在《纽约时报》说过一句话，我觉得非常敏锐，就是谈到在《绝命毒师》第一集结束时，他已经卷入了毒品世界。

You said something in the New York Times that I thought was really astute, which was just talking about how by the end of that first episode of Breaking Bad, he's already involved in the drug world.

他已经杀人了。

He's already killed.

他已经杀了人，显然杀了两个人，但真正杀了其中一个。

He's already killed, apparently killed two guys, really killed one.

而在我们第一集结束时，又怎么样呢？

And by, you know, and by the end of our first episode, what?

他设法让一把枪对准了自己的头，这可以说是一种承诺，或者某种暗示。

He's, you know, he's managed to get a gun pointed at his head, which is, I mean, I guess a promise or some something.

但这是一种完全不同的故事，我认为他们给了我们足够的自由去发挥。

But it's a it's a really different it's a different kind of story, and I think we they gave us enough rope.

我的意思是，不只是制片厂和电视台，观众也一样。

I mean and I don't mean just the studio and the network, but the audience did.

他们给了我们足够的空间，希望我们别把自己吊死，而是有足够的余地去尝试一些我认为真正不同的东西。

They they gave us enough rope to keep to keep hopefully not hang ourselves, but rope to to give us enough slack to try something what I think is really different.

值得称赞的是，你们确实做到了。

And to your credit, you did.

这正是你们应该拥有的荣誉，文斯，你们当时说，这和我们刚才谈到的结局有关。

That's that's that's the credit that you should own, and Vince, is that you guys said, and this relates to what I just we talked about, the ending.

那要是来个突然结尾呢？

What about a flash ending?

那要是来个大结局呢？

What about a big ending?

你们说不。

You said no.

我们要利用这份善意和我们培养起来的观众群体，去走向更艰难、更具挑战性的方向。

We're gonna take this goodwill and this audience that we've grown and and worked with, and we're gonna go somewhere harder and more, you know, more maybe more challenging.

而且我们要利用这份善意，去挖掘得更深一些。

And and we're gonna take that goodwill and use it to something to dig a little deeper.

当然，也有些人看了《风骚律师》但没看过《绝命毒师》。

And yet there are people, obviously, who've watched Better Call Saul who didn't watch Breaking Bad.

你知道，偶尔会有人过来，一年两回，不多，说：我根本没看过《绝命毒师》，但你们的东西太棒了。

You know, because they come up to you every once or twice a year, not many, who go, I've never even seen Breaking Bad, and your shit's the best.

确实如此。

That's true.

确实如此。

That's true.

这太棒了。

It's wonderful.

这真是件了不起的事。

That's a wonderful thing.

那些说这些话的人，其实更说明了你的价值。

And it's like the people who are the folks who say more about you.

前几天。

The other day.

这 guy 真是绝了。

This guy went takes the cake.

他说他肩膀上停着一只鹦鹉，手里拿着一只蜥蜴，脚上穿着人字拖。

He said he had a parrot on his shoulder, and he had a lizard in his hand, and he had flip flops on.

他说他没有电视。

And he said, I've I don't own the TV.

我认为《风骚律师》比《绝命毒师》更好。

And I think Better Call Saul is better than Breaking Bad.

所以他是在鹦鹉上看的吗？

So he watches it on his on his parrot?

是的，大部分时间都是。

Is on most, yes.

太棒了。

Love that.

我见过的最古怪的人。

Most specialist person I ever met on Earth.

我有个问题。

I have a question.

我们在之前的播客中讨论过这个话题，但现在我们可以更开放地谈一谈了——我们早在2021年4月就和布莱恩和亚伦拍摄了那些内容。

We talked about this on the podcast in previous episodes, but now we can be a little bit more open about it, about the fact that we shot the stuff with, Brian and Aaron a long time ago in April 2021.

天啊。

Oh god.

所以你们得拍摄最后一集的一个场景，你们有故事，但还没写好剧本。

And so you were so you had to shoot a scene from the last episode that you, you know, you had the story, but you hadn't written the script.

那么，鲍勃和彼得，你们在拍摄沃尔特和索尔那场戏时，为设定背景进行了多少讨论？

So Bob and Peter, how much talking did you guys do as far as setting up the context for that scene with Walt and and Saul in order to shoot it?

因为我知道，当我与雷交谈时——不是在播客里，而是在我们制作第604集、她担任导演时——她得到了足够的信息，了解了第六集第12集的背景，也就是她刚从索尔的办公室出来，带着离婚的结局。

Because I I know that, like, I know when I talked with Ray, not on the podcast, but when we were working on six zero four when she was directing, that that she had, you know, you had long you know, you you gave her enough information to understand the context of what was going on in six twelve that she had just come out of basically, that she'd come out of Saul's office with a divorce.

但你们在拍摄沃尔特和时间机器那段戏时，具体进行了多少背景沟通？或者你们讨论了哪些具体内容？

And and but how much how much context or how many what kind of context or conversations did you have about that that scene with Walt and the Time Machine stuff specifically?

天啊，那已经是很久以前的事了，我很难记清楚。

That was boy, you know, it's so long ago it's hard for me to remember.

但另一点是，这正好是我们拍摄的初期。

But, and also the other thing about it was this was right at the beginning of our shoot.

而且当时我们还在应对新冠疫情，那时我们还没完全调整好一切。

And so we were also dealing with COVID, which was, we hadn't really dialed everything in at that point.

当时有很多面罩和塑料防护装备，结果很多我们以为需要的东西最后根本用不上。

There was a lot of face shields and plastic, and so a lot of stuff that we didn't end up needing that we thought we needed at the time.

而且，天啊，我当时都记不清我们有没有，我想那时我只拍过一场戏。

And, boy, had we even had, I'm trying to remember if we'd been, I think I'd only had one shot at that point.

是的，就是那时候。

Yeah, that's when

他们才开始的。

they started.

我们讨论过，我觉得确实很棘手，因为那里有三个关键的情节节点。

We talked about it and I think we certainly, it was tricky, you know, because there's three major beats.

我的意思是，这些剧集中，第11、12和13集都包含了一些《绝命毒师》时期的元素。

I mean, there's in those episodes, there's eleven, twelve, and 13 each have pieces of Breaking Bad era sort of stuff.

而第11集的第一个片段发生在房车里。

And the the first tranche in episode 11 is in the in the RV.

而索尔就像你很久以前在《绝命毒师》里初次见到的那样，完全是他本人。

And Saul is, you know, he's full Saul as you as you met him way back way back on Breaking Bad in that first episode.

而第二个片段则非常不同，因为它聚焦于金和杰西。

And then the second one is very different because it's Kim and Jesse.

所以这个片段除了说明杰西的故事发生在《绝命毒师》事件之前，几乎没有其他背景。

And so that kinda had no context except that Jesse is, you know, it's before the events of Breaking Bad.

因此，杰西遇到的是一个被《风骚律师》事件所动摇和改变的人，但他自己尚未被即将发生的、与高中化学老师重逢的事件所塑造。

And so Jesse's meeting somebody who's shaken and changed by the events of Better Call Saul, but he's still sort of unformed by what's gonna happen when he when he reunites with his high school chemistry teacher.

而这个片段则是我们之前已经拍摄过的一场戏的延伸。

And then this one this one was it's it's an extension or it's of a scene that we already shot.

所以它非常直接、原原本本。

So it's it's very it's very literal.

当时我试图制作一些能与我们之前的内容衔接起来的东西。

It was a it was, you know, I was trying to trying to make something that would fit together with what we did before.

我的意思是，你看。

And it was I mean, look.

整个剧组都参与了，这是第一个实际拍摄所有那些沃尔特和杰西场景的片段。

It was everybody on the crew, this was the first one that actually shot out of the all those all those Walt and Jesse scenes.

这是第一个开拍的，所有人都非常期待看到鲍勃和布莱恩同框。

This was the this was the one that shot first, and everybody was so keyed up to see Bob and Brian together.

他们正在拍摄一段非常长而复杂的场景，就像一整天都在观看一场精彩的戏剧。

And they were doing this this very long, elaborate scene, and it was like it was like watching this fantastic play for a for a day.

看到这两位演员互相配合，真是令人惊叹。

It was it was it was it was remarkable to see these two guys playing off each other.

我在想，鲍勃，你们应该很多年没合作过了，但不知怎的，你们俩一下子就回到了《绝命毒师》结尾时的状态。

And I'm thinking, Bob, I don't think you'd worked together in many years, but somehow you both slipped right back into where you were, way back at the end of Breaking Bad.

这真是太了不起了。

It was it was remarkable.

这就是我的记忆。

That's what I remember.

对我来说有趣的是，我现在扮演的是索尔，但我现在知道吉米是谁了。

You know, what's interesting for me was that I'm now I'm playing Saul, but now I know who Jimmy is.

当我演《绝命毒师》的时候，我从来不知道这一点。

And, you know, and I never did know that when I did Breaking Bad.

我从未拥有过这个维度。

I never had that dimension.

事实上，每当我想到《绝命毒师》中索尔在镜头外的样子，我都觉得他是个去脱衣舞俱乐部、打高尔夫，过着非常肤浅、与人毫无关联的生活的人。

In fact, whenever I thought about Saul off screen of of the scenes in Breaking Bad, I thought about a guy who goes to the strip club, you know, plays golf, and and and just, you know, has a very shallow life and sort of no connections to anybody.

所以在那个场景中扮演他很合适，因为那是他生命中一个安静而过渡的时刻。

And so playing playing him in that scene, and it's appropriate, you know, because it's a quiet and a transitional moment in his life.

他必须找到另一个新的身份，而他以索尔身份活下去的赌注失败了。

He's he's finding he's gotta find yet another identity, and his gambit to be Saul in life didn't work out.

这是一个完全不一样的人。

And it's just a different guy.

但在这里，我却在和沃尔特·怀特对话，而他根本不知道查克或他生活中的任何事，只觉得我是个喋喋不休的混蛋，闭不上嘴。

And yet here I am talking to Walter White who doesn't know any of that shit about Chuck or any of his life or anything he's been through and just thinks he's a yammering asshole who won't shut up.

所以，能够扮演一个完全不同的人，真的非常酷，但我知道沃尔特·怀特看不到这些。

And and and so it was it was really cool to, to be a different person, and that's but I know that Walter White doesn't see any of that.

他看不到吉米/索尔内心那些更复杂的情感。

See any of the feelings that the the sort of more complex feelings that Jimmy slash Saul is, going through.

总之，那场戏真的很棒。

Anyway, it was a really cool scene.

太棒了。

It was great.

我喜欢和你合作，你知道吗？

I love working with you know?

我的意思是，我觉得这并不难，不难。

I mean, I didn't think it was hard to no.

对我来说并不难。

It wasn't hard for me.

我的意思是，所有这些内容、这些角色，都是我过去六年生活的一部分，我一直在不同版本的他之间切换。

I mean, all this stuff, all this character was all in my life for the last six years, and I am always switching between the variations of him.

但在这个情况下，你知道，他更像是吉米，而不是索尔。

But in that case, you know, he's more Jimmy than he is Saul.

这很有趣，因为我们很早就拍了这场戏。

It's interesting because we shot that so early.

那时候，我们还不知道查克会在最后一集出现。

At that point, we didn't know that Chuck was gonna show up in the final episode.

实际上，查克是我们拆分剧本后才加进去的角色。

We actually Chuck was an addition after we broke after we broke the episode.

我觉得我得承担责任。

I felt like I'll take responsibility.

我觉得我们打磨剧本时，感觉少了点什么。

I felt like there was something missing from the script as as we as we'd worked it out.

所以我强烈认为必须有一场查克的戏，但我花了最长时间才想清楚这场戏该是什么样子。

And so I felt strongly that there had to be a Chuck scene, but it took me the longest time to try to figure out what what that scene could be.

所以当我们拍摄与沃尔特在地下室的那场戏时，我不确定当时是否知道我们会在这集中加入查克。

So at the point where we shot the shot the the basement scene with with Walt, I don't think I don't think I knew that we're gonna have Chuck in the episode.

而且我想这在某种程度上影响了我们，你知道，我们让这三个角色——迈克、沃尔特和查克——在本集的现在时间线中都已经去世了。

And and I think that informed somehow, you know, having the you know, he he that we have these three characters who are all dead in the present day of our episode.

你知道，迈克、沃尔特和查克。

You know, this this Mike Mike, Walt, and Chuck.

当我们讨论这一季以及吉米会发生什么时，我们总是会提到《圣诞颂歌》。

It it's it I we when we talked about the season and what happens to to Jimmy, we always used to talk about A Christmas Carol.

因此，在这个最终集里，让他被三个幽灵造访，似乎再合适不过了。

And and so it seemed appropriate that he gets visited by three ghosts in this in this this final episode.

天啊，这太有意思了，这根本不是最初故事构思的一部分。

God, that's so I that's so interesting that that was not a part of the original break, the story break.

因为我觉得没有这一段简直无法想象。

I I because I can't imagine it without it.

就像我说的，我当场就哭了出来。

It's so like I like I said, I I I burst into tears.

我的意思是，甚至只是看到他，然后看到这个，是的，就像吉米过去的幽灵一样。

I mean, just even seeing him and then seeing seeing this, yeah, like the ghost of Jimmy past as well.

这个曾经的吉米，你知道的，是个对兄长卑躬屈膝的人，而那位兄长是个专横的人。

This the the the Jimmy that was, you know, a a a sort of a supplicant to his brother, this domineering brother.

我喜欢他以不同方式应对时间机器问题的那些不同表现。

And and you know, I like the different the different ways the different ways that he approached the time machine question.

是的。

Yes.

这有点像《续命之徒》里沃尔特和杰西的那段闪回场景。

Is it I just it's sort of like that scene in in El Camino, the the Walt and Jesse scene, the flashback.

我认为文斯在播客里提到过，那个场景最初是别的内容，你们都讨论过，后来他加了那句我无法想象没有它的话。

And I think Vince talked about it on the podcast that that scene was initially something else, you guys all talked about it, and that he added that line that I can't imagine it without it.

那句台词是：你真幸运，这么年轻就找到了你热爱的事，或者找到了你擅长的事。

That line where it's like, you're so lucky that you figured out what you love, or you figured out what you're good at at such a young age.

那种遗憾与心痛。

Just the regret and heartache.

我太喜欢了。

I love it.

我绝对喜欢查克和吉米的那场戏。

I absolutely love that scene with Chuck and Jimmy.

这真是太

It's

美妙了。

beautiful.

能让迈克尔·麦基恩和鲍勃回归，真是太特别了。

Getting Michael McKean Having Michael and Bob back, that was so special.

另外，必须给整个美术部门点赞，尤其是我们的施工主管史蒂夫·布朗，他重建了查克家的大片场景。

And also, by the way, big props to the whole art department, especially Steve Brown, our our construction supervisor for rebuilding a massive chunk of of of Chuck's house.

是的。

Yeah.

那真是

That's a

我们毁掉了那个。

We destroyed say that that.

我们彻底毁掉了那个布景。

We destroyed that set completely.

是的。

Yeah.

在每个季度结束时，他们会问我，你知道，哪些布景需要保留以备将来使用？

And they asked me they at the end of every season, they would ask me, you know, what sets do we need to keep for future?

我说，我们已经用完查克的家了。

And I said, well, we're done with Chuck's house.

所以那个就被拆掉了，你知道，被报废了。

So that was it was was it was, you know, it was scrapped.

天知道原来的那个去哪儿了。

I don't God knows where the original one was.

所以他们不得不根据图纸重建，重建了很多部分。

So they they had to rebuild it from the plans and rebuild a lot rebuild a lot of it.

这是一项巨大的工程。

And it was it was a big job.

当然，迈克尔·麦基恩，我是说，看到他回来饰演查克，我不知道，鲍勃，我不确定你感觉如何。

And of course, Michael McKeon, I mean, just seeing him come back as Chuck, I I don't know, Bob, I don't know how you felt about it.

我只是看到你们俩最后一次以这些角色一起合作。

I just was seeing the two of you guys work together one last time in these as these characters.

那真是。

That was Yeah.

非常感人。

Really moving.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我很喜欢和迈克尔合作。

I mean, I love working with Michael.

我的意思是，他一直是我喜剧偶像之一，也是最棒的搭档，就像布赖恩和雷一样。

I mean, he's been my one of my comedy heroes and and just a great the greatest scene partner, you know, similar to Bray Brian and and Ray.

对我来说，这三位是与我合作的重量级演员，他们让我脚踏实地，帮助塑造了这个鲜活的世界。

For me, those three are the heavies who I got to work with, who ground me and just, you know, just help make that world that come to life.

我可以问一个很傻的问题吗？这个问题几乎和我们的节目毫无关系。

Can I ask a stupid I'll ask a stupid question that has not almost nothing to do with our show, almost?

但迈克尔·麦基翁出演了《Mr.》节目中的一个小品。

But Michael McKeon is in a sketch of Mr.

他出演了一个小品。

Show.

他在一个很棒的小品里扮演法学教授，所有人都在认真听讲。

He's in a great sketch where he plays the law professor, and everybody's listening.

如果你还没看过这个小品，一定要去看看。

If you haven't watched it, you've gotta watch this sketch.

这个小品叫‘苹果黄油’。

It is apple butter.

整个小品现在简直太疯狂了，你还记得迈克尔·麦基翁是怎么演上这个角色的吗？

It's the whole thing is just fanta now how did do you remember how Michael McKeon happened to end up playing that role?

或者

Or

我的意思是，我年轻时就是可信度缺口的粉丝，我们都喜欢《斯宾纳塔普》。

I mean, I was a fan of the credibility gap when I was young, and we all love Spinal Tap.

但他并不属于我们《先生秀》主要招募演员的另类圈子里。

And but it's not like he was a part of the alternative scene, which is where we drew most of our actors from on mister show.

他是个传奇人物，我想他那时已经上过《周六夜现场》一两年了。

He was a legend, and I think he'd already been on SNL and for his year or two that he did that.

我不确定。

And I I don't know.

我会想象是我推荐了他，因为我可能是这群人里最崇拜他的人。

I'm gonna imagine that I suggested him because I'm probably the biggest fan of his from that group.

大家都喜欢他，但我会是那个说出迈克尔·麦基恩的名字、知道他、并希望他加入的人。

Everybody loves him, but I would be the one who'd say Michael McKeon, you know, know his name and and and want him.

但我记得我们感到非常幸运，他答应出演，而且我们为他能加入而深感荣幸。

But I remember us feeling incredibly lucky that he said he'd do it and and just honored that he was there.

所以，是的，就这样了。

So, yeah, that's all.

我不记得了。

I don't remember.

我相当确定我认为这个小品也是我的，它来自萨姆·西达，他后来去上了法学院。

I'm pretty sure I think the sketch was mine as well, and it came from Sam Cedar who was a, who went to law school.

我们当时都在阿斯彭喜剧节，正在一个滑雪坡上。

And we were all at the Aspen Comedy Festival, and we were out on a ski slope.

我们正在吃东西，他跟我讲了法学院的事，以及一位老师说的话：看看你右边。

And we were having some food, and he told me about law school and about a teacher who said, look to your right.

看看你左边。

Look to your left.

等你毕业的时候，这些人的其中一个将不会坐在你旁边。

One of these people when you graduate, one of these people will not be sitting next to you.

或者到今年年底，这些人中的一个就会离开。

Or the end of this year, one of those people will be gone.

我当时就想，这真是个混蛋的做法。

And I thought, what a dick move.

我的意思是，直接说这会很难，各位。

I mean, just say it's gonna be hard, you guys.

你们知道吗，他们在电影学院、研究生院对我们说了几乎完全相同的话。

You're gonna You know, they said almost exactly the same thing to us in film school, in graduate school.

他们说，哦，你们大多数人最终都做不下去，或者离开这个行业。

They said, oh, most of you guys aren't gonna make it or get out of here working the business.

是的。

Yeah.

那这条信息有什么用呢？

So what what good is that information?

这毫无价值。

It it's worthless.

离开的人确实如此。

The people who leave Yes.

他们继续过自己的生活。

They go on and do other things with their lives.

他们并没有消失。

They don't disappear.

他们也没有被扔进古拉格。

They don't get thrown in a gulag.

他们做出了其他选择。

They they make other choices.

有些人成了小说家，其他人则成了，你知道的，各种各样的人。

Some of them become novelists, and others become, you know, whatever.

其他人则去了苹果黄油农场。

Others become Or they they all go to apple butter farm.

决定哪些电影能够拍摄。

Decide what movies get made.

是的。

Yeah.

嘿，彼得。

Hey, Peter.

我以前从没问过这类问题，但因为这是最后了，我很好奇拍摄进度安排得怎么样。

I never asked these kinds of questions, but because this is the end, I'm curious how well, I'm curious about scheduling.

我猜你们不是按照时间顺序或剧本顺序拍摄的。

I'm gonna assume that you did not shoot this in order in chronological order or script order.

不是。

No.

那你们最后拍的是哪一场戏？当时现场情况如何？剧组、资金，还有其他人都在吗？

So what was the last scene that you shot, and how did that go as far as being there, the crew, the cash, whoever was there?

作为导演，那对你来说感觉如何？

How was that for you as a director?

我可以告诉你，通常我们当然不会按顺序拍摄，但这次真的很特别。

I will tell you that the you know, we don't usually shoot in order, of course, as a but this was really special.

你知道，这次真的特别。

You know, this was really special.

梅丽莎强烈认为我们应该以吉米和金的场景收尾。

And Melissa Melissa felt strongly that we should end with the Jimmy and Kim scene.

我们出色的副导演里奇·西克勒让这一切成为了现实。

And Rich Sickler, our brilliant AD, made it happen.

所以最后一天拍的是吉米在牢房里，或者吉恩在牢房里，他撞门时伤到了自己。

So that was the last day was Jimmy in this or Gene in the cell, when he hits hits the door, it hurts himself.

接着就是吉米和金在那个会议室里的场景。

And then the next thing was Jimmy and Kim in that that meeting room.

那是我们拍摄的最后一个场景。

And that was the very last thing that we shot.

我对那一刻记忆犹新。

I remember so much about it.

我记得鲍勃和雷一到现场，因为这是一个非常简洁的场景，你知道吗？

I remember as soon as Bob and Ray, because it's a very spare scene, you know?

它很大程度上依赖于话语之间的停顿。

It's trusting a lot in the pauses between the words.

当我看到你们准备的东西时，因为我们都反复提到过，我们的演员，尤其是鲍勃和雷，为每一个场景都做了大量准备。

And as soon as I saw what you guys had prepared, because I mean, it's not a we've talked about it over and over again that our cast, especially Bob and Ray, would prepare a lot for for every scene.

而你们把这一切准备得如此精美。

And you guys had prepared this so beautifully.

实际上，除了拍摄并确保我们拍对了之外，几乎没什么可做的。

There was, like, really nothing to do except shoot it and make sure we got it right.

但那是最后一场戏。

But that was the last that was the last scene.

而且，我知道，我将永远心怀感激。

And, you know, I'm I'll I'm eternally grateful.

由于准备得如此充分，我们能够相对迅速地完成拍摄，因为马歇尔·亚当斯在很多方面都很出色，尤其擅长前期视觉化。

It was so well prepared that we were able to shoot it relatively quickly because Marshall Adams is brilliant in many ways, but he's also brilliant at pre visualization.

他早就已经制作好了那个牢房灯光效果的数字模型。

And he was he had little digital models of how that cell was gonna be lit already.

然后他还做了一件事，我将永远感激不已。

And then he did something else that I'm gonna be grateful for forever.

他设计了这样一种方式，让我们可以同时拍摄两侧。

He engineered it so we could shoot both sides at once.

所以当你看着雷的时候，实际上摄像机是在对着一面镜子拍摄。

So when you're looking at Ray, he's actually the camera's actually shooting into a mirror.

因此我们可以同时拍摄鲍勃和雷的镜头，这种同时拍摄的便利非常难得，因为我觉得这样做能带来一些额外的特别效果。

So we could shoot both Bob and Ray, shoot their coverage simultaneously, which is just a a special privilege to do because it just you get a little something extra, I think, when you can do that.

你不可能总是这么做，尤其是在这样精心布光的场景中。

You can't do it all the time, especially in a scene that's so beautifully lit.

但马歇尔找到了办法，而我当时真的觉得这是一个非常特别的时刻。

But Marshall Marshall found a way to do it, and and I I was just it was a very special moment.

之后，我们都站在摄影棚里，依然戴着口罩，哭泣着，互相赠送惊喜礼物。

And then afterwards, you know, we were all standing around on the stage, still in our still in masks, of course, and and crying and and unveiling unveiling rap gifts.

鲍勃和雷都向剧组发表了讲话，说实话，我至今还没有在心理上真正接受这一点，因为这对许多剧组成员来说意味着结束。

And Bob and Ray both spoke to the the crew, and it was I, you know, I still haven't really taken it on mentally, to be honest with you, because it was it was the end for a lot of the crew.

但当然，我这一年还有大部分时间要继续，而我至今仍未理清这一切。

But of course, I still had most of this year to go, and I'm still I haven't figured it out yet.

我还没想明白。

I haven't figured it out yet.

几周。

Weeks.

几周。

Weeks.

那真是感人而特别的时刻，我非常感谢梅丽莎和里奇，他们想出了如何安排这个拍摄，因为要安排成以这两位角色的最后一场戏收尾并不容易。

That was it was a really moving and special it was I'm really grateful to Melissa and to Rich for figuring out how to schedule this, because it was not straightforward to schedule it so we'd end on, I mean, the last scene between these two characters.

而且，从一开始就计划好要呼应试播集中那个精彩的镜头吗？

And was it always a plan to echo that that great shot in the pilot

是的。

Yes.

那种电影条状的……

With that sort of film bar That

那是从房间里拍的。

was from the room.

嗯。

Yeah.

我们确实觉得，嗯。

We definitely felt like Yeah.

你知道，我们希望，正如鲍勃所说，我们这一集里没有烟火效果，绝对没有。

You know, we're hoping you know, what we don't have is, as Bob said, we don't have the fireworks, absolutely, in the episode.

但你希望的是，我们能有情感上的共鸣，因为当你和这些角色一起度过了六十三集之后，你就会获得这种感受。

But what you hope is you hope that we have the emotions because and that's the thing that you get when you have lived with these characters for sixty three episodes.

你会真正地投入其中。

You get really invested in them.

所以我的希望是，这种情感、这些呼应，以及我们的观众如此敏锐地察觉到所有这些细节，能够为剧集增添深度，希望如此。

And so my hope is that the emotions of it and the the callbacks and our our audience is so astute in noticing all those things that I I think it just it kinda adds a depth to it, hopefully.

我的希望就是，情感上的震撼能替代那些车辆飞越坡道、以及所有其他外在的场面。

And that's that's my hope is that the emotional fireworks will substitute for the the ramp, the the the car going off the ramp, and the and all the rest of it.

所以，对你来说，观看最后一集是一次情感上的体验吗？

So it was an emotional experience to watch the final episode for you?

天哪。

Oh my god.

是的。

Yeah.

在这一集里，有两处情节，我之前跟你们说过。

It it was there were two there were two points in in the in the episode that I I was telling before we started recording.

我去了办公室，那里我已经大概有一周没去了。

I I went to the office where I and I've been done, I guess, for about a week.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我是在这一集最终定稿的那天去了办公室，嗯。

And so I went to the office, like, the the day that the episode locked, and I Mhmm.

所以当时是晚上11点，我开始看这一集，它是不是有68分钟？

So it was like 11PM I started watching the episode, which is is it sixty eight minutes?

对，差不多吧，是的。

So it Yeah, something like that, yeah.

我当时一个人在深夜的空办公室里，就在办公楼的顶层。

And I so I was alone late at night in this empty office at the, you know, top of an office building.

你去过那里。

You've been there.

我就那样看着这部剧，有两个瞬间让我特别触动。

And and just watching this thing, and there were two points.

一个是吉米和查克的那场戏，看到查克的时候，不知为何，作为粉丝，也作为这部剧的工作人员，我没想到自己会如此想念他，也感受到吉米有多么想念他，以及吉米在多大程度上觉得自己对他的死负有责任。

One was when when Jimmy and that scene with Jimmy and Chuck, there's there was something about just seeing Chuck, and, again, I I guess I didn't realize how much I like, as a fan and as somebody who is also, you know, works on the show, I I I guess I didn't realize how how much I I guess I missed him and how much I feel like Jimmy misses him and and feels responsible for for his death in in a in a lot of ways.

但另一个瞬间是金去探望吉米的时候，场景明显是在监狱里，而且这很可能是他们最后一次见面，也许是永远的告别。

But then but then the other and then the other point is when Kim comes to see Jimmy and it's clearly in prison, and it's clearly their last time, probably the last, maybe the last time they'll ever see each other.

我当时一个人哭得稀里哗啦，完全停不下来。

And I just, I mean, I was like ugly crying alone, just like sobbing.

我真的控制不住自己。

Like I didn't, it was not controllable.

你知道，这当然很悲伤，但我想部分原因也是因为，我们即将迎来这部剧的终结，这让我感到很难过。

I, you know, and I, you know, it's certainly, it's sad, but I, you know, and I think also some of it was, it is just, I'm sad that the, you know, that there were, it's coming to a close for us.

这对我来说，无疑是一段极其重要、深深融入我生命的经历。

This has been such a, certainly personally for me, it's been such a huge experience and part of my life.

你们当中是否也有类似的感受，关于这件事即将落幕，以及《绝命毒师》中三大主要犯罪角色中，只有一个人真正承担责任并为自己的行为付出代价？

And any of you have similar feelings about just the nature of this thing kind of wrapping up and and and the fact that of the of the three main players in the criminal enterprise in Breaking Bad, only one person really takes any responsibility and and and pays the price for their actions.

我的意思是，杰西逃走了，沃尔特死于枪林弹雨，而吉米是唯一一个真正说‘是我做的，我愿意为此付出代价’的人。

I mean, Jesse escapes, Walt dies in a hail of bullets, and and and Jimmy's the only person who really says, yeah, I did that, and I'm gonna I'm gonna actually pay the price for it.

哇哦。

Wow.

是的。

Yeah.

这一点我之前没想过，就是它与《绝命毒师》及其他角色之间的关联。

That's something I hadn't thought about as far as the relationship to Breaking Bad and the other characters there.

至于你对这一集剧情本身的情感反应，以及‘这一切终于结束了’的整体感受，我想当我看到时，也会有同样的体验。

And as far as your reaction, your emotional reaction to the plot itself of the episode, but also the overall feeling of this is over now, that's something that I think I'll also experience when I see it.

我被问过无数次，在所有访谈中，都是关于结束这个角色时，感觉如何。

And I and I I've been asked many, many times in all the interviews I've done about how does it feel to be wrapping this character.

我说，我其实没什么感觉，因为你知道，我们曾经中断了好几个月，然后又回去继续拍摄，我这样断断续续地做了七年，但如果算上《绝命毒师》的部分，其实已经十二年了。

And I say, I don't really feel it because, you know, we've stopped for months at a time and gone back, and I've been doing that for seven years, but really for twelve, if you include the Breaking Bad part of it all.

所以我想，我内心深处某个地方可能觉得，好吧，现在我们不拍了，但以后还会回去的。

So so I guess some part of me is thinking somewhere deep down, well, you know, for now, we're not doing it, but you'll go back.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道的。

You know?

所以我觉得我得去看看。

So I think I have to see it.

我得亲眼看着这些角色走向他们的结局，那真是写得太过精彩了。

I have to see those characters come to their ending, that was so, I think, wonderfully written.

我还没看过，但我对彼得写的剧本，以及整个团队为这部剧的旅程和结局所做出的安排感到非常满意。

I have not seen it, but I felt great about what Peter wrote and what the team came up with for the journey of this show and where it goes.

所以我觉得我必须去看，我希望我能和你有同样的感受——一种深刻而真实的落幕感，因为我也确实需要为这一切画上句号。

So I think I have to see it, and I hope I have the same feelings that you do, a feeling a real impactful feeling that it ended because I I kinda do need to end it too.

所以你知道，这会让人难过，但感受到这一切结束，对我来说也是继续前行的重要一步。

So both you know, it'll be sad, but also an important thing to feel it's over for me to just move on.

我等不及了。

And I can't wait.

我非常喜欢那些选择，以及故事最终走向的地方。

I I love the choices that were made and the place the story went to.

而且以一种奇怪的方式，吉米一直以来都是最……我不知道怎么说。

And in a in a strange way, Jimmy always has been the most I don't know.

我想说，他是最有道德意识的人，但这样说有点奇怪。

I I guess I'd say ethically aware person, but it's weird to say that.

但我觉得他明白自己这些年一直在逃避什么，也一直在努力逃避它。

But I think he understands what he's been avoiding all these years, and he's been working hard to avoid it.

所以当他决定以最诚实的方式直面这一切时，我认为他配得上这个选择。

And so when he comes to a place where he decides to face it in a in the most honest way, I think he's worthy of that choice.

我觉得他们塑造了一个有能力做出这种选择的角色，而且我觉得他必须做出这个选择才能成长，或者至少需要被看到，因为你总会怀疑一个人是否对自己的所作所为一无所知。

I think they created a character that was capable of making that choice, and and I kinda think needed to make it to to grow or to to be it just needed to be seen because you sort of wonder if a person is clueless to what they're doing.

他们更难让人关心，但我认为一直有一种感觉，他其实明白。

They're harder to care about, but I think there was always a sense that he understood.

他无疑足够聪明，从呈现和写作的角度来看，能理解自己做出的一些选择以及这些选择为何是错误的。

He was certainly smart enough as as presented and written to understand some of the choices he was making and how they were bad choices.

但他只是故意视而不见，因为那样太有趣了。

And he just wanted to be willfully blind to those things because it was too much fun.

但不管怎样，我很喜欢故事最终走向的地方。

But, anyway, I do love where it went to.

你知道，鲍勃，你之前提到过你的喜剧偶像，以及和他们合作的经历。

You know, Bob, you were talking earlier about about your sort of your comedy legends and and and working with them.

我不得不想象，今年你还有幸与另一位喜剧传奇人物合作，那就是卡罗尔·伯内特。

And I I have to imagine that another one of your comedy legends you got to work with this year too, Carol Burnett.

是的。

Yeah.

在和她合作之前，你认识她吗？

Had did you know her before working with her?

而且

And

没有。

No.

我不认识她，但小时候我们一直虔诚地看她的节目。

I did not know her, but I you know, we watched her show religiously when I was a kid.

当然。

Of course.

她的节目对我们、对我和我们的家庭都非常重要。

And her show was very important to us and to me and to our family.

她能把那么多荒诞的内容悄悄带进美国家庭，这真是了不起。

The amount of silliness that she was able to sneak into America's households, is really just the greatest.

我的意思是，她最大的成就就是把这种无厘头内容带进了人们的家中，而没有附带一堆说教，除了从电视里传递出的温暖情感——因为那个剧组的每个人真正地欣赏彼此、爱彼此、享受彼此。

I mean, it's the it's her greatest achievement is that she got that nonsense into people's homes without, you know, without a bunch of lessons to it outside of the warm feelings that you felt coming emanating from your television because that cast and that group of people genuinely appreciated each other and loved each other and and enjoyed each other.

我不喜欢打破第四面墙的桥段，但我觉得在卡罗尔的节目里，这本质上是完全不同的事，因为它并不像演员在说：‘看我。’

I I'm not a fan of breaking in sketches, but I think that it was fundamentally a different thing in Carol's show because it wasn't it didn't feel quite so much like a performer going, look at me.

它感觉更像是一种真正的惊喜，据我所知，确实如此。

It felt more like a genuine surprise, and it was, I'm told.

而那种真挚的默契——这种品质超越了她节目中的所有其他方面，正是她所呈现的核心。

And and the genuine camaraderie, which was the quality of the show above all above all the, the good vibes of her show were, what she was presenting.

因此，这与她的节目非常契合。

And, and so it fit with that with her show.

我完全接受并深深喜爱她在节目中的表现。

I I totally accepted and loved it in her show.

所以，能参与其中真是太棒了，当然，她本人也是最了不起的人。

And so it was just great to be and, of course, she's just the greatest person.

我的意思是，她就是那种你看到的人。

I mean, she's she's that person that you see.

她温柔、幽默、聪明、敏锐。

She's sweet, funny, smart, sharp.

她是最棒的。

She's the best.

最棒的。

The best.

能和她合作真是太棒了。

And what a fucking treat to get to work with her.

我的人生中，这可能是我整个职业生涯中最伟大的事情之一。

I mean, my life, one of maybe one of the great things in my whole career.

你能从每日素材中看出来，你们俩之间的互动方式。

That's well, and you can see it in in the dailies even, just the the way that you two played off each other.

你能真切感受到那种温暖，而这一定很难做到，因为在第六集第十二场戏中，你真的会感觉他即将——我觉得他会伤害这个女人。

Like, you could you could really feel the warmth and which must have been really difficult in that you had to get to a place where where in in episode six twelve where you really feel like he's gonna I think he's gonna hurt this woman.

我觉得他即将——他很绝望，被逼到了角落。

I think he's gonna he's he's desperate, and he's backed into a corner.

而要达到那种状态，是不是很难？

And and and was that was that difficult to get to that

那种状态？

place?

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，你按照剧本去做，但你会试着为它找理由。

I mean, you do what the script tells you to do, but you try to justify it.

你知道的。

You know?

而我多年来扮演的吉米·麦吉尔，是个我认为不会杀害老人的人。

And you try to the the Jimmy McGill that I'd played for years was a guy who I don't think would kill an old person.

结果证明，他确实没有，但就连这个想法他都会很难接受。

As it turns out, he doesn't, but would even have a hard time with that idea.

对他来说，这绝非易事。

It wouldn't be an easy thing for him.

而索尔·古德曼会说，去干掉某个该死的混蛋，你知道的，那个要告发你的人，是个年轻家伙，是个瘾君子，那就完全是另一回事了。

Saul Goodman who says, kill some asshole, you know, who's gonna rat on you, who's a young guy, who's a meth head, that's a different thing.

你知道的。

You know?

我完全相信他会说，那是你的准则。

I I I have no troubles believing he would say, that's your code.

对吧？

Right?

你们就是这样做的。

You guys do that.

就这么做吧。

Just do that.

但我多年来扮演的这个角色，是一个会因真的杀害一位善良的老太太而挣扎的人。

But but the character that I'd played for years was a guy who would struggle with with actually killing a a sweet old lady.

但当然，他并没有这么做。

But and and, of course, he doesn't.

谢天谢地。

Thank god.

因为那样就完全无可救药了。

Because that would be completely irredeemable.

我认为让我能接受的是，他故意把自己逼到了这个角落。

I think what what justifies it for me, the place that he goes to is he's kinda backing himself into this corner intentionally.

他几乎希望自己的处境彻底崩塌，因为他已经无法继续了。

He he almost wants to blow up his situation because he can't.

躲藏下去是不可持续的。

It's untenable to stay in hiding.

但当他到达那个节点时，他意识到：天啊，我完蛋了。

And and yet when he gets to that juncture, he realizes, like, oh, I'm I'm just fucked.

我简直不敢相信我做了这种事。

I can't believe I did this.

我能回头吗？

Can I turn it back?

但他无法回头了。

And he can't he can't turn it back.

而且他潜意识里其实希望这件事发生，他也知道这一点。

And he kinda secretly wanted it to happen, and he knows that.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而这种‘他知道’的意识，某种程度上一直是他构建自身世界和维系世界张力的噩梦，因为这个角色在理解他人方面非常理智、情绪敏锐，但对自己却未必如此。

And that sense of he knows that has been the the bane of the effort of, you know, building his world and the tensions of his world to some extent because the character is very intellect emotionally intelligent about everyone, maybe less so about himself.

或者他选择逃避。

Or he hides.

他很可能早就知道这一切，但他选择回避。

He probably knows all this stuff, but he hides from it.

而此刻，他再也无法逃避了。他将自己全部的生命和精力都投入到了逃避之中——逃避那种‘我无法再躲下去’的意识，他知道一旦走出躲藏，就会招致地狱般的惩罚。

And here's a moment where he can no longer hide, And he's put all his life and effort into hiding, that awareness that I can't stay hidden, and I can't and I'm gonna have a reign of hell brought down on me when I come out of this hiding.

是的。

Yeah.

说得太精彩了。

That's that's incredibly well said.

我对这一切感到非常难过。

And I'm so sad about all of this.

我觉得这也挺让人难过的，你知道，我们邮件集那一集收到了很多问题，很多人在问下一部衍生剧会是谁。

It was also sad to I think, you know, there's been a lot of talk, a lot of the the questions we got in the mailbag episode were like, you know, a lot of people wondered who the next spin off was gonna be.

彼得，我认为大家的共识肯定是法警麦卡贝尔，我觉得你如果不是看片尾字幕的话，根本不会知道他的名字，但就是那个把吉米、吉恩、索尔带上飞机的人。

And Peter, I I I think that the consensus is definitely US Marshal McCaleb which I I think that's I think that's you know, you wouldn't know that that's his name unless you watch the credits, but but that's the guy who takes takes Jimmy, Gene, Saul to you know, he's the one on the airplane.

他是那位法警，而且剧本里确实写了。

He's the the marshal, and it's it's in the script.

他的名字是法警麦卡贝尔。

His name is Marshall McCaleb.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

法警麦卡贝尔。

Marshall McCaleb.

他由史蒂文·康拉德·摩尔饰演，演得非常好。

He's Steven Conrad Moore played him, and he is great.

你知道，这部剧结束的一个遗憾就是，如果他早些时候出现过，我们可能会 brainstorm 想办法把他再请回来。

You know, this is this is one of the frustrations about the show ending is that if if he had shown up in an earlier episode, we'd be brainstorming to try to figure out a way to bring him back.

拍连续剧有趣的一点就是，你能和一些人合作，然后说：哇。

And it's it's one of the fun things about doing series television is you get to work with people a little bit and say, wow.

这个人真棒。

This person's great.

也许我们可以为这个角色做点什么。

Maybe there's something we can do with this character.

当然，彼得·戴克特就是最典型的例子，彼得最初只在一段蒙太奇里出现过，说了一句话。

And, of course, the Peter Dyceth is the ultimate example of that where Peter was in a he had one line in a montage.

他在剧集第二集里说了好几次。

He said it many times in in the second episode of the show.

佩蒂，有前科的。

Petty with a Prior.

佩蒂和普赖尔，而我们现在老了，鲍勃立刻说：‘我不确定他是不是跟我提过，鲍勃。’

Petty with a Prior, and here we are old and Bob immediately said I don't know if he's he might he might have said it to me, Bob.

这人真的不错。

This guy's really good.

你应该考虑让他回来。

You should think about bringing him back.

而我们现在，你知道，六十多集过去了，他基本上，你知道，在某种程度上，成为了观众看待萨尔·古德曼、吉米·麦吉尔这个角色的视角人物，搞清楚这到底发生了什么。

And here we are, you know, sixty sixty some odd episodes later, and he's he's basically, you know, in some ways the point of view character for the for the for the audience there about, you know, what what what the hell is going on with this Saul Goodman, Jimmy McGill guy.

所以，是的，彼得，是的。

And so, yeah, Peter yeah.

但还有史蒂文·康拉德·摩尔，他也是《大胆类型》的常驻演员。

It's it's but having Steven Steven Conrad Moore, also a series regular on the Bold Type.

我们非常幸运能请到他来扮演这个角色。

We were very lucky to get him to play this role.

和很多演员一样，他非常耐心地坐在法庭里，连续几天配合我们拍摄这场复杂的法庭戏，做出各种反应。

And like a lot of the cast like a lot of the cast, he was very patient about sitting in that courtroom and reacting for a couple of days while we shot this that elaborate courtroom scene.

但当然，既然我在谈演员阵容，我必须提到贝茜·布兰特。

But, of course, I have to also say, since I'm talking about cast, Betsy Brandt.

是的。

Yes.

我们请到了贝茜。

We got Betsy.

没错。

Yeah.

我本来也想说 yes。

I was gonna say yes.

我看了之后，当时就忍不住倒带重看。

Can you I was actually, when I watched it, I was like, I had to rewind at that point.

我当时想，等等。

I was like, wait.

等等。

Wait.

等等。

Wait.

那是

Was that

布莉琪的情况吗？

what Betsy is?

对。

Yeah.

黑白的。

In black and white.

黑白的布莉琪。

Betsy in black and white.

对。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

她当时真的穿了紫色，只是我们没看出来吗？

Did she have purple on for real that we just couldn't tell?

我觉得她可能在那个时候已经换掉了紫色。

I think she may have switched off a purple at this point.

你知道的？

You know?

她确实这样，她看起来承受了这一切，而且确实应该如此。

She's does that that she seems she seems she took all this hard, and rightly so.

而且，是的，对我的来说，贝茜——这可能是本集中我最喜爱的时刻之一。

And, yeah, so Betsy, of course, to me, that's that's maybe that's one of my favorite moments in this episode.

有很多事情，比如我认为那时他已经是索尔·古德曼了。

There's so many things is the is the confrontation between I think he's Saul Goodman at that point.

索尔和玛丽之间的对峙。

Saul and and and Marie.

鲍勃在那场戏里演绎了多种情绪：先是感到糟糕，然后变得勇敢，接着又把一切甩回一位寡妇脸上，你知道的，这真的很棒。

And Bob plays so many colors in that, feeling you're feeling feeling shitty and then feeling bold and then just, you know, throwing it back in the face of a widow, you know, which is It's pretty all.

真的很糟糕。

Pretty pretty awful.

太他妈糟了。

It's really fucked up.

你说得对。

You said it.

嗯。

Yeah.

你为什么要那样做？

Why'd you do that?

他为什么？你为什么这么崩溃？

Why was he why were you so fucked up?

把整部剧看完。

Watch the whole series.

嗯。

Yeah.

没什么。

Nothing.

和贝齐合作真是一种享受，我很好奇法庭场景中用了哪些镜头，因为我们那场长独白拍了无数次。

Just a joy to work with Betsy, and I I'm curious about what takes were used in the courtroom scene because we did that long monologue many, many times.

当天拍完后，我去找彼得说，我需要重新拍一遍。

And then at the end of the day of doing it, I went to Peter and said, I need I need to do it all again.

提出这个要求很难，因为我们已经花了一整天的时间来拍了。

It was hard to ask for that because we'd spent a whole fucking day doing it.

但我觉得自己太情绪化了，感觉错过了一些几乎完美的瞬间。

But I felt like I'd gotten too emotional, and I felt like there were some almost moments that I'd missed.

然后我们又拍了一次。

And and then we did.

一周后我们回来，又把这段独白重拍了五十次，因为感觉不一样了。

We came back a week later and did the whole monologue another 50 times and because it was different.

是的。

Yeah.