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欢迎回到《更好致电塞克斯顿》节目组。
Welcome back to Better Call Sexton gang.
今天我们为您准备了满满的议程。
We have a full docket for you today.
一位女性因婚外情被判赔偿170万美元。
A woman, $1,700,000 for having an affair.
我们将讨论情感疏离及其真正含义。
We talk about alienation of affection and what it really means.
我们会谈到节日停战协议。
We talk about the holiday ceasefire.
是的。
Yes.
这确实是离婚法中的一项实际条款。
That's an actual thing in divorce law.
《Vogue》杂志称，作为女性，拥有男朋友是件无趣的事。
Vogue magazine says that boyfriends are lame if you're a woman.
我们会讨论这个话题。
We'll talk about that.
我们还会探讨在床上表现不佳如何成为一种女权主义行为。
And we'll talk about being bad in bed as a feminist act.
一个有趣的理论。
An interesting theory.
此外，我们还收到了一些观众投稿。
Plus, we got some viewer submissions.
我们收到了一条性短信。
We got a sextinism.
今天我们有很多内容要讨论。
We got a full docket today.
让我们开始吧。
Let's get after it.
好的。
Alright.
我们要从一项叫做'情感疏离'的法律条款开始讨论。
We're going to start with something called alienation of affection.
天啊。
Oh my god.
这简直是七十年代的老黄历了。
That's a throwback jam to the nineteen seventies.
没错。
Yeah.
这在你出生前就有了。
This is Before your time.
对外行人来说，我们根本不知道这是在说什么。
To the layman, we don't know what this is about.
简单说就是：你和我配偶有染，我要起诉的是你这个第三者，而不是我的配偶。
So That's that's you the had an affair with my spouse and I'm gonna sue you, the person who had the affair, not my spouse.
就是这么回事。
That's what it is.
就像卡通里的佩佩乐皮尤那样，你知道吗，当那只雌性臭鼬经过时，他闻到她气味就突然神魂颠倒地跟着她走了？
It's I'm gonna you you you know, like, remember in the cartoon with Pepe Le and, like, the female skunk comes by and he smells her and all of a sudden he's just wooed away and he follows her down?
这个法律概念就是基于那个前提，就像佩佩乐皮尤的故事一样。
They it's based on that premise, like Pepe Le Pew.
它基于这样的理念：你和配偶原本深爱着彼此，然后这个恶意的第三者出现，硬生生夺走了你配偶的感情。
It's based on, like, this idea that your spouse and you were madly in love, and then this, you know, this malevolent force comes in and just alienates your spouse's affection.
他们曾经深爱着你。
That they were madly in love with you.
你们的关系原本完美和谐，突然这个超级情圣/荡妇像乌云般出现，用各种方式破坏你们的感情纽带，这就是民事索赔的依据。
The relationship was perfect and serene, and suddenly the dark cloud of this super cock or super vagina showed up and just started raining literally or figuratively all over your spouse parade and alienated and it's a civil claim.
这实际上属于民事索赔，民事索赔本质上就是要求对方赔偿金钱损失。
It's actually a civil claim, meaning civil claims are essentially where you're suing somebody for money damages.
你是在告诉这个人：你介入并离间了我配偶的感情，现在造成了实际损害。
So you're saying to this person, you came and alienated my spouse's affection, and now there is damage.
所以你想讨论的是注意义务、违约行为和因果关系——这是对信任的背叛，你伤害了我，现在我要追究民事责任。
So you wanna talk call show duty, breach, and causation is a breach of trust and that you've damaged me, and now I want civil penalties.
刚刚有一桩情感疏离案成功获得了200万美元的赔偿裁决。
And there was just a successful $2,000,000 verdict for alienation of affection.
多年来的首例。
First one in ages.
我想这大概是二十五、甚至三十年来第一起。
I think it's like first one in twenty five, maybe thirty years.
北卡罗来纳州170万美元的和解案，你知道吗？
$1,700,000 settlement in North You know?
是的。
Yeah.
北卡罗来纳是全美仅六个允许此类诉讼的州之一。
So North Carolina is one of six states that even allows this.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
我是说，很多州都允许，但人们就是不去做。
I mean, lot of states allow it, but people just don't do it.
比如，如果你查一下，或者问问ChatGPT，那些仍然在册的奇怪法律。
Like, if you ever look up like, ask chat GPT sometime, you know, weird laws that are still on the books.
有一大堆这样的，比如，把松鼠塞进裤子里用于赌博是违法的。
There's like a bunch of, like, it's illegal to put squirrels down your pants for the purposes of gambling.
这可是真事儿。
Like, that's a real thing.
还有，比如在距离学校一定范围内占卜算命也是违法的。
Like, there are actually like, it is illegal to, do fortune telling, within certain feet of a school.
这些法律都还在册，但没人因此被起诉。
Like, there's and these are on the books, but there's no prosecutions for it.
所以感情疏离与感染是这类法律中的一项。
So alienation and infection is one of those things.
它只在六个州的法律条文中有所记载。
It's only on the books in, like, six states.
但实际上，上一次对此提起诉讼是在德克萨斯州，有位法官审理了一起感情疏离感染索赔案，后来在上诉中被推翻，那大约是十年前的事了。
But, really, the last time there was a prosecution of it, there was a judge in Texas who heard an alienation infection claim that got turned over on appeals, and that was, like, ten years ago.
所以这类案件并不常见，但这是长期以来在这方面最重大的判决。
So it does not come up very often, but this is the most significant verdict that's happened in this front in a long time.
而且外面有很多被背叛的人都在想，就是这样了，宝贝。
And there are a whole lot of people out there who've been cheated on that are like, that's it, baby.
我现在就要为此讨回公道。
I want my payday for this now.
这个案子中，他们说有大约六七百件证据，包括200条短信。
So this case, they said there was about six or 700 pieces of evidence including 200 text messages.
是啊。
Yeah.
要证明并赢得这个案子，需要什么样的证据呢？
What would that even need to look like in order to prove and win this case?
是啊。
Yeah.
我是说，就像我们律师总是告诉客户的，重点不在于你知道什么。
I mean, what you wanna do like, lawyers always we always tell clients, it doesn't matter what you know.
而在于你能证明什么。
It matters what you can prove.
所以这很大程度上是要证明你与配偶关系良好。
So a lot of this is about proving that you had a good relationship with your spouse.
然后当这个人介入你配偶的生活时，他们某种程度上夺走了你对配偶的感情。
And then when this person inserted themselves into your spouse's life, that somehow they sort of took from you your spouse's affection.
因此在本案中，他们似乎有相当确凿的书面证据链。
And so they had in this case, it sounds like a pretty solid paper trail.
他们掌握了丈夫与妻子之间的大量通讯记录，显示丈夫看起来非常幸福且与妻子关系紧密。
They had a lot of communications between the husband and his wife where he was very, you know, seemed to be quite happy and seemed to be quite connected.
然后从另一方出现了这种诱惑，你开始看到对配偶的关注和吸引力相应减少，而更多转向了别处。
And then there was this sort of seduction that came from the other side and that you start to see a commensurate loss of attention and attraction to the spouse and more of something.
所以他们确实完成了举证责任，听起来是这样。
So they really did meet their burden of proof, it sounds like.
再说一次，做陪审团工作时，你需要说服的对象就像公交车上遇到的普通人。
And again, you know, when you're doing jury work, you got to convince like, you know, like a bunch of people you'd meet on the bus.
就是一群随机的人。
Like it's just a random bunch of people.
所以你要说服他们事实就是如此，而他们掌握了很多证据。
And so you want to convince them that that's what happened, and they had a lot.
人们没有意识到，你在社交媒体上写的内容、发的短信都可能成为法庭上对你不利的证据。
You know, people don't realize that what you write on social media, what you put in text messages can and will be used against you in court.
我有很多客户因为自己的短信或WhatsApp记录毁了案子，也有很多案子是我通过调取这些通讯记录打赢的——我们能展示出他们与他人的沟通方式。
I have so many clients who damage their cases and so many cases I've won because we bring in someone's text messages or WhatsApp messages, and we're able to show the way that they communicate with somebody.
这确实会为当事人留下非常危险的书面证据链。
And and and it really does create a really a really dangerous paper trail for somebody.
但在这种案件中，你知道，如果你只是证明你对配偶不满。
But in a case like this, you know, if you were able to just prove you were unhappy with your spouse.
对。
Right.
那足以让这个案件被驳回吗？
Would that be enough to throw this case out?
是的。
Yeah.
这足以证明不存在可以被转移的感情基础。
It would be enough to demonstrate that there was no affection to be alienated.
那么你如何，甚至怎么才能真正证明所谓的'感情'呢？
So then how do you, how could you even really prove quote unquote affection?
比如，没错，我的短信里写着'我爱你，亲爱的'。
Like, yeah, my text message said, I love you, honey.
但实际上，法官大人，我早就恨透了这个女人
But on the inside, your honor, I've hated this woman for
10 对。
10 Right.
而这就是证词必须呈现的样子。
And that's what the testimony would have to look like.
但那样你就已经失去可信度了。
But then you're already losing credibility.
因为你的说法就像——交叉质询时总会问：你当时在撒谎还是现在在撒谎？
Because what you're saying is like because the question always becomes on cross examination, were you lying then or are you lying now?
所以，呃，抱歉。
So, oh, so I'm sorry.
所以你的辩护理由是你是个骗子。
So your defense is that you're a liar.
你的辩护理由是你没有可信度。
Your defense is that you don't have credibility.
你的辩护理由是那些短信里说的'你是全世界最棒的妻子，我太爱你了宝贝'
Your defense is that all those text messages where you said, you're the greatest wife in the whole wide world and I love you so much, baby.
我加班是因为我想为家庭工作，因为我爱你，想给你想要的一切。
And I'm working late because I'm trying to, you know, work for the family because I love you and I want to be giving you everything you want.
那是个谎言。
That was a lie.
好吧。
Okay.
所以现在我们应该相信你，因为你之前撒谎但现在没撒谎。
So that that now, though, we should believe you because you were lying then, but now you're not lying.
这种辩护从来都不好，当你不得不说我撒谎是为了维持和平时。
Like so it's not it's never a good defense when you have used it before when you have to say, look, I was lying to keep the peace.
我撒谎是因为我害怕，我是家庭暴力的受害者。
I was lying because I was afraid I'm a victim of domestic violence.
我撒谎是因为我知道她会拿孩子出气。
I was lying because I knew that she'd take it out on the kids.
虽然有些方式可以把不诚实说得稍微值得同情些，但这绝不是你想陷入的境地。
Like, there are some ways you can spin dishonesty into something a little more sympathetic, but it's never a position you wanna be in.
在法律上有什么方法能证明情感的存在吗？
And is there a way in the court of law to prove emotions?
比如，我爱她爱到足以让这成为
Like, I loved her enough that this could be
一个案件。
a case.
我不知道，多少爱才够得上
I didn't you know, how much love qualifies
感情的标准？
as affection?
是啊。
Yeah.
只能靠证词。
Just testimony.
这也是个问题，你往往看不到的是——不是每个人都擅长作证。
And that's the problem too is that what you don't often see, not everyone knows how to testify well.
就像前几集提到的Cardi B，她在交叉询问环节简直示范了大师级表现。
Like, talked a couple episodes back about Cardi B just putting on a master class in cross examination.
有些人就是不适合当证人。
Like, some people just aren't good witnesses.
他们不太擅长讲述自己的故事。
Like, they they can't tell their story really well.
我常告诉客户，等到开庭时他们会有种不踏实的安全感——因为一直是我在替他们发言，而且我做得很好。
Like, I I tell clients by the time we get to trial, clients get a sort of unfair sense of security because I've been talking for them, and I'm really good at it.
但现在我必须闭嘴，由他们自己回答问题、讲述故事，并接受交叉质询。
But now they have to I have to shut up, and they have to answer questions and tell their own story, and they're subject to cross examination.
有些非常聪明的人——比如我有很多客户是高管层精英，才华横溢——但在证人席上就是表现不佳。
So sometimes a very intelligent person, like I have a number of clients that are very high performing c suite executives, brilliant people, they're just not good on the witness stand.
看过艾梅柏·希尔德和约翰尼·德普庭审的人都知道，德普是个极具感染力、魅力十足的证人。
Anybody who watched like Amber Heard and Johnny Depp's trial, Johnny Depp was a very engaging, charming witness.
而希尔德在证人席上简直让人喜欢不起来。
Amber Heard was utterly unlikable on the witness stand.
所以很大程度上归结于——陪审团和法官会让你为混蛋行为付出代价。
So a lot of it comes down to and and, you know, juries and judges, you will pay the asshole tax.
就像，如果人们就是不喜欢你或不相信你，如果你显得不可信，那可能会造成很大伤害。
Like, if people just don't like you or don't believe you, if you don't come off as credible, it can be very damaging.
所以，你知道，这实际上取决于当你站上证人席时，谁更可信？
So, you know, it really comes down to when when you get on the stand, who is more credible?
而如果本案中的妻子站上证人席说：我们曾经相爱。
And if the wife in this case gets on the stand and says, we were in love.
我们曾经很幸福。
We were happy.
比如，这里有所有这些证明。
Like, here's all this proof of this.
这里有我们一起为彼此做的所有事情，我们发生关系的频率，然后突然情况急转直下，暴风雨来临。
Here's all the things we did together and for each other, and here's how often we were having sex, and here's what and then suddenly things shifted and the storm clouds came.
如果她的故事叙述更有说服力——这就是为什么我说我的职业是贴身肉搏式的故事讲述。
If she's more convincing in her storytelling that's why I tell people what I do for a living is full contact storytelling.
就是这么回事。
That's all it is.
我在试图讲述一个故事。
I'm trying to tell a story.
对方试图拆解我的故事并讲述他们自己的版本，而我在讲述自己故事的同时也在拆解他们的故事。
The other side's trying to take apart my story and tell their own story, and I'm trying to take apart their story while I'm telling my story.
这是个需要高度智力投入的过程，但归根结底，它只是关于如何讲好故事。
So it's a very, very intellectually engaged process, but ultimately, it's just about storytelling.
在本案中，现在要向这位——我们姑且称她为情妇——索赔170万美元。
And in this case, it's now $1,700,000 from the let's call her the mistress, if you will.
帕拉莫尔。
Paramore.
没错。
Yeah.
这位耶洗别式的妖妇。
The siren of Jezebel.
涂脂抹粉的耶洗别之力量。
The power of the painted Jezebel.
而且，你知道，我总觉得经常听到女性们说，别怪她。
And, you know, I I always feel like I hear often women be like, don't blame her.
要怪就怪他。
Blame him.
是他出轨的。
He's the one who cheated.
是他
He made
对你许下的誓言。
the vows to you.
论点。
Argument.
你知道，他才是那个许下誓言的人。
You know, he's the one who took some vows.
他才是那个，你知道，亏欠你的人。
He's the one who, you know, owed you something.
理论上说，这个人也只是对方欺骗行为的另一个受害者。
This is just another person who theoretically is also a victim of this person's deceit theoretically.
但在这个案例中，有指控称此人明知他已婚且婚姻幸福，却仍试图将他从配偶身边夺走。
But, again, in this case, there were some allegations that this person knew that he was married, that this person knew that he was happily married, and that she made efforts to try to sort of pull him away from his spouse.
这正是感情疏离案的核心——你必须证明原本存在的情感纽带被此人以某种方式强行破坏。
And that's at the core of an alienation of affection case, you have to show that there was this affection and bond there that you were able to sort of this person wrestled away in some fashion.
用法律术语来说，他们就是导致感情破裂的近因。
They were what we call in the law approximate cause of the loss of affection.
也就是说，他们就是直接原因。
Meaning, they were the cause of it.
就像用保险杠追尾你的车一样，他们就是造成车辆损坏的直接原因。
Just like if they rear ended your car with their bumper, that they are a proximate cause of the damage to your car.
我想我知道吉姆·塞克斯顿会怎么回答这个问题。
I think I know how Jim Sexton's gonna answer this question.
但你相信这个吗？
But Do you believe in this?
不信。
No.
不信。
No.
我觉得这太荒谬了。
I think it's insane.
我是说，听着。
I think I mean, listen.
从体育竞技的角度看，这总是很有趣。
I think it's from a sporting perspective, it's always fun.
作为一名诉讼律师，我觉得这会是个很有意思的案子。
Like, as a litigator, I think it'd be a really fun case to try.
但是，不，我认为这是个糟糕的概念。
But, no, I think it's a terrible concept.
我认为这种诉求之所以消亡，以及为何这么多司法管辖区通过立法废除它，是因为真相深藏在无底洞的底部。
I think the reason why it became extinct as a claim and why so many jurisdictions got rid of it by statute is that the truth's at the bottom of a bottomless pit.
在我25年的法律执业生涯中，我代理过被背叛者和背叛者的案件不下数百次。
I have in twenty five years of practicing law, I have represented the cheated on and the cheater countless hundreds of times.
我可以告诉你，事情真的没那么简单。
And I can tell you that, you know, it's just not that simple.
真的，事情没那么简单。
Like, it's just not that simple.
就像人际关系破裂的方式和人们破产一样，先是缓慢瓦解，然后突然崩溃。
Like, people people go you know, people relationships fall apart the same way people go bankrupt, slowly and then all at once.
很多时候，先是出现各种隔阂，最终导致出轨事件发生。
And very often, there are all of these disconnections that happen, and then eventually an affair happens.
根据我的丰富经验，出轨行为往往是...
Affair is in my experience, and this is a lot of experience.
我觉得自己都能拿个出轨研究的博士学位了。
I feel like I have a PhD in infidelity.
它们确实是一种表象症状。
They really are a symptom.
而非根本原因。
They're not an underlying cause.
就像，人们不会因为出轨而离婚。
Like, people don't get divorced because they had an affair.
人们出轨是因为婚姻本身出了问题。
People have affairs because there's something wrong in the marriage.
幸福的人是不会出轨的。
Like, happy people don't cheat.
我知道这是个不受欢迎的观点。
I know that's an unpopular opinion.
我知道评论区会因此对我口诛笔伐。
I know I'll get blazed in the comments for it.
好在我从不看那些评论。
Thankfully, I don't read them.
但说到底，确实如此。
But ultimately, like, yeah.
听着。
Look.
我知道你想相信一切本来都好好的，是这个人出现毁了你们的关系。
I I know you wanna believe that everything was fine, and then this person came along and ruined your relationship.
憎恨那个人、把责任推给他们，比承认'哦不'要容易得多。
That's easier to hate that person and blame them than it is to say, oh, no.
而且顺便说一句，这种想法让我们觉得似乎还能掌控局面。
And also, by the way, comforts us to think that like we have some control.
我们以为只要把配偶和其他人隔开，远离潜在的情敌，他们就不会被勾走。
We could just keep our spouse away from other people and other potential mates that somehow they won't get wooed away.
但事实并非如此。
It doesn't work that way.
真正的问题在于人与人之间的疏离，这种状态会让人变得脆弱——要知道，自然界厌恶真空，人心同样厌恶空虚。
Like, it really is disconnection between people, and that creates a vulnerable state that, you know, a nature abhors a vacuum and people's hearts abhor a vacuum too.
在继续之前，关于这个话题的最后一个问题。
Last question on this before we move on.
你既代理过出轨方也代理过被出轨方，那你有为这类案件中的第三者辩护过吗？
So you've represented the cheater and the cheat e, but have you ever represented the paramour in a case like this?
有的，当他们被传唤作证时。
I have in, where they're where they're called in as a witness.
有时人们会试图将离婚程序和抚养权程序武器化，他们会把第三者拉进来，目的是展示他们为情人挥霍了共同财产，或者在抚养权案中试图证明对方有不可告人的秘密从而对孩子构成危险。
Sometimes people try to weaponize the divorce process and custody process, and they try to bring the paramour in for the purposes of showing, like, wasteful dissipation of marital assets that they spent money on the boyfriend or girlfriend, or they try to bring them in on a custody case and try to show that, you know, they have skeletons in their closet and therefore are dangerous to the children.
通常这对委托人来说是个糟糕的选择。
Usually, that's a bad path for a client to go down.
我都会劝阻他们不要这样做。
I discourage them from doing it.
但偶尔有人这么做导致你被传唤作证时，记得请律师。
But every once in a while when someone does that and you get subpoenaed to come in and testify, lawyer up.
我就曾作为律师代理过这类案件，比如为与雇主有染的保姆辩护，或类似的各种情况。
And I've been the lawyer in that case where I've represented someone who was the the nanny who someone was sleeping with or the any number of examples of those things.
而且，说实话，那个人通常某种程度上只是被卷入交火的无辜者。
And, yeah, I mean, that person is usually just someone who's caught in a crossfire to some degree.
通常那种关系会结束，而当关系结束时，这个人作为证人可能仍然处于弱势。
Often that relationship ends, you know, and when that relationship ends, this person is still vulnerable potentially as a witness.
所以这确实存在，但系统里也设置了制衡机制来防止这类事情发生。
So it's a real but again, there are checks and balances built into the system to try to prevent this stuff.
比如在离婚诉讼中，除非是仅凭双方无法证实的事情，否则原则上不应该对第三方进行证据开示或传唤，因为他们不希望人们把离婚变成互相攻击的武器。
Like in divorce actions, you're really not supposed to do third party discovery and subpoena third parties unless it's something that can't be proven with the two parties because they don't want people to turn divorces into like a weapon that they beat each other up with.
哦，是啊。
Oh, yeah.
根本不是那么回事。
It's not that at all.
不是。
No.
从来都不是。
It's never that.
我简直无法想象法庭上那种紧张氛围，丈夫、妻子和保姆都在场，我是说，
I can't even imagine the tension in a courtroom of a husband, a wife, and the nanny, and the I mean,
天啊。
oh my god.
意思是，你可以想象那种
Mean, it's You can circle of
地狱般的性感场面。
hell, Sexy.
嗯，如果你每小时能拿850美元报酬待在那里，就不会觉得那么难熬了。
You well, if you're getting paid $850 an hour to be there, it's not so loving it.
是啊。
Yeah.
我还为更少的钱干过更糟的事呢。
It's I've done worse shit for less money.
但我得告诉你，那种紧张感浓得都能浇在煎饼上了。
But I have to tell you, like, tension that you could just pour it over pancakes.
我是说，它很浓稠。
Mean, is It thick.
确实很浓稠。
It is thick.
但我发现越是有人对我摆臭脸，情况就越奇怪。
But I find that the more someone is like mean mugging me because what happens is like, it's very strange.
人们就是讨厌对方律师。
People just hate opposing counsel.
向来如此。
Always.
自动反应。
Automatic.
他们会自动认为，好像我该为这种情况负责似的。
They just automatically do like, I'm like, I'm somehow to blame for this situation.
你懂吗？
You know?
越是有人对我摆臭脸，我就越是精神抖擞。
And the more that somebody mean mugs me, like, the more that I just am, like, chipper.
懂吗？
You know?
我反而会多盯着他们看几眼。
The more that I'll sort of look at them.
如果是男性的话，我内心会有种冲动——趁没人注意时，我会盯着他们看，然后做出那种‘你懂的’表情，给他们一个微妙的小讥笑。
If it's a guy too, I there is something in me that's sort of like like I'll when no one else is looking, I'll look at them and I'll go like, you know, and I'll give them like the little, like, you know, like, I'll give them a little smirk.
然后他们就会一脸懵：‘他在干嘛？’
And then they're like, what is he doing?
我就装傻：‘他在说什么啊？’
I'm like, what's he talking about?
‘我刚刚只是眼睛进东西了。’
I just I had something in my eye.
‘你在说什么？’
What are you talking about?
你知道吗？
You know?
就像，但这确实会加剧冲突，你懂的，会让矛盾升级一点。
Like, but it really is like it it amps, you know, it amps up the conflict a little bit.
有时候这是策略性的。
And sometimes it's strategic.
比如，有时候我就是想激怒这个人。
Like, sometimes I wanna rattle this person's cage.
有几次我把人激怒到在法庭上大发雷霆。
I have a couple of times rattled somebody up so bad that they blow up in the courtroom.
然后我就会说：法官大人，看看这个人，连有法警在场都控制不住自己。
And then I go, your honor, look at how this person, they can't control themselves even with court officers there.
你能想象在家里是什么样吗？
Can you imagine how it is at home?
要知道，每看到一只蟑螂，墙里还藏着50只。
You know, for every cockroach you see, there's 50 in the walls.
他就坐在法庭上却控制不住自己。
He's sitting here in a court of law and can't control himself.
你能想象我的委托人经历了什么吗？
Can you imagine what my client must go through?
等他们离开时，我就说：行吧。
And then when they leave, I'm like, fine.
回见。
See you.
天啊，塞克斯顿。
Oh my god, Sexton.
在这种情况下你需要雇佣吉姆的首要原因，就是防止对方雇佣他。
That the number one reason you need to hire Jim if you're in this situation is just so the other side doesn't hire him.
你懂的
You know
明白我的意思吗？
what I mean?
那很好。
That's good.
我甚至不是想要你为我工作。
It's not even that I want you working for me.
而是
It's that
我不想要你为我工作。
I don't want you working for me.
是啊。
Yeah.
不。
No.
其实这话有一定道理。
That's actually there's something to that.
你懂吗？
You know?
实际上我遇到过这样的人，他们在离婚程序早期就雇佣我，他们会说'我甚至不确定自己会不会离婚，但我绝不要你代表我的配偶'。
I've actually had people who, like, hire me early in the process, and they're like, I'm not even sure if I'm getting divorced, but I do not want you representing my spouse.
而且我觉得这非常令人受宠若惊。
And and I find that very flattering.
顺便说一句，你们肯定会离婚的。
Also, by the way, you're getting divorced.
如果你假装性...
If you pretend sex and
你们肯定会离婚的。
you're getting divorced.
呃，我是说，你看
Well, I mean, look.
我可不会呼风唤雨
I don't make it rain.
我只是卖雨伞的
I sell the umbrella.
但我会明确告诉每个来找我的人，没错，你宁愿让我坐在谈判桌前，也不愿自己成为砧板上的肉。
But I will definitely say to anybody who comes in, I'm like, yeah, you'd rather, you know, you'd rather have me at the table than have you be on the menu.
这很好。
It's good.
当你
When you
说，我不制造风雨，但我卖伞。
say, I don't make make it rain, but I sell the umbrella.
有没有那么一刻你会想，你说你每小时赚850美元。
Are there ever moments where you're like, so you said you're making $850 an hour.
我在卖伞。
I'm selling the umbrella.
但有没有那么一刻你会希望，要是没下雨就好了。
But are there ever moments where you're like, I wish it wasn't raining.
不管我赚多少钱。
I don't care how much I'm making.
我不在乎这个案子能不能赢
I don't care that I'm winning this case.
这太紧张了，也太丑陋了
This is is so tense, and this is so ugly.
我一点都不想再参与其中了
I don't want any part of this anymore.
不
No.
我想我只是习惯了冲突的泥潭，而且我经常把自己视为这些情境中的调解者
I I think I'm just really used to the clay of conflict, and, like, I I I see myself as a as the out cause in these situations a lot.
这就是我的角色定位
Like, it's really my role.
除非有特定目的，否则我不会刻意激化矛盾
I I don't try to amplify conflict unless it has purpose.
大多数时候，我都在尝试找到一种方法引导双方走出困境，同时尽量保全他们之间尚存的联系——尤其当他们还有共同子女时
Like, most of the time, I'm trying to sort of figure out a way to navigate both sides through this situation and in a way that will preserve the connections that they still have with each other, especially if they have kids.
他们将共同成为祖父母。
They're gonna be grandparents together.
我宁愿有人恨我，也不愿他们恨自己的共同抚养人。
I'd rather someone hates me than hate their co parent.
如果你能把我妖魔化，给我安上恶魔的角，那再好不过。
Like if you can vilify me and fit me with horns, that's great.
在你孩子的高中毕业典礼上，你不需要坐在我旁边。
You're not going have to sit next to me at your kid's high school graduation.
你永远不必再见到我。
You never have to see me again.
所以我宁愿这个人恨我。
Like so I'd rather that this person hate me.
让我来当替罪羊吧。
Let me be the whipping boy.
就让他们把整件事都怪在我头上。
Like let me be the person who they blame for the whole thing.
那太好了。
That's great.
这样他们就不用和我一起抚养孙辈了。
Because then they're not going have grandkids with me.
他们就不必和我打交道了。
Like they don't have to deal with me.
所以这没关系。
So that's fine.
我能承受这个负担。
I can carry that weight.
但说实话，有时双方都太斤斤计较，让我几乎想放弃，因为经常会出现这样的情况：案件中有两位非常理性的律师，但两位客户却完全不讲道理。
But no, I don't really there are times where both sides are being so petty that I find myself almost throwing my hands up and say like, because very often we will have two very reasonable lawyers on a case and two clients that are totally unreasonable.
两位律师甚至违背自身利益在争论，因为这些客户只想让冲突升级。
And the two lawyers are like arguing against our own interests because these people want the conflict to just amp up.
我们靠处理冲突赚钱，却还要劝他们不要打官司。
And we get paid for the conflict, and we're trying to talk them out of litigation.
这很荒谬，因为我们本该火上浇油激化矛盾，好让自己从中获利。
And it's just bizarre because we're you know, we really should be going the other way, which is exacerbating the conflict and lining our own pockets.
但实际上，有职业道德的律师往往会努力推动案件进展。
But in fact, ethical attorneys, like, very often try to move the case along.
所以有时候，当这两个人互相攻击时，我他妈恨不得为子弹加油助威，因为我看着他们就想：
So there are times where, you know, in a gunfight between these two people, I'm cheering for the fucking bullets because I just look at them and I'm like, you know what?
你们这些人活该遭报应。
You people deserve every miserable thing that's gonna happen to you.
不过，我有个做刑事辩护律师的朋友，我们常开玩笑说他看到的是坏人的最好一面，而我看到的是好人的最坏一面。
But, you know, I also like I I have a buddy who's a criminal defense lawyer, and he and I joke that he sees bad people at their best, and I see good people at their worst.
因为他是刑事辩护律师。
Because he's a criminal defense lawyer.
他代理的那些恶劣罪犯在法庭上都会衣冠楚楚，表现得规规矩矩。
He represents awful criminal people who are, like, buttoned up and behaving as best as possible because they're in a courtroom.
而我代理的那些人日常生活中都理性、成功、心地善良，但他们现在被愤怒和伤痛冲昏了头脑，完全失控了。
And I represent people who in their day to day life are rational, successful, really good hearted people, and they're just so angry and hurt that they are just it's spraying in every direction.
所以，你知道的，你会看到人们不为人知的一面，但我从不往心里去。
And so, you know, you see a side of people that you kind of I just never take it personally.
我的客户经常向我道歉，说‘对不起’。
I have clients all the time apologizing to me like, I'm sorry.
‘很抱歉昨天我情绪那么激动，对不起我那样了’，而我会说，别担心，真的不用在意。
I'm sorry that yesterday I was so worked up, and I'm sorry that I was and I'm like, don't don't even worry.
到现在，我的脸皮已经练得很厚了。
Like, I have such thick skin at this point.
你感到沮丧或情绪激动并不会困扰到我。
Like, it does not bother me that you're upset and that you get upset.
我不会允许你对我无礼或发疯，但我可以让你发泄，允许你稍微失去些理智，而我会为你保持理性和专注。
I'm not gonna let you be, you know, disrespectful and crazy to me, but I can let you vent, and I can let you get a little, you know, irrational and I'll stay rational and focused for you.
我猜节假日期间，尤其是节日的时候。
I'd imagine around the holidays, it's Holidays.
压力很大。
Stressful.
天啊，我...我的天
Oh, I I oh my god.
你大错特错了
You could not be more wrong.
我以为情况会愈演愈烈
I thought it's gonna ramp up.
我的天啊
Oh my god.
不
No.
就像现在正进入从感恩节到元旦的节日休战期，一片祥和
It's like there is I'm just entering now the serene, like, Thanksgiving to January 1 holiday ceasefire.
就像...你知道，就像有个当老师的朋友在暑假会完全变个人，因为他们不用整天面对尖叫的孩子们？
It's like a whole you know, like, if you have a friend who's like a school teacher in the summer, they're like a whole different person because they're not dealing with these screaming children all day?
从感恩节前一周到元旦的我就是这样，因为所有人都会说'等过了假期再说吧'
That's me from, like, the week before Thanksgiving until January 1 because everybody just is like, well, let's just wait till after the holidays.
大家都平静下来了。
And everybody just kinda calms down.
法院系统进入年终模式，他们不安排日程。
The court system goes into, like, year end mode where they don't schedule.
我觉得我现在大概三周都不用出庭。
I don't think I have a court appearance for, like, three weeks right now.
这真是前所未有。
It's that's unprecedent.
对我来说，三天不出庭就很奇怪了。
To go three days without being in court is bizarre to me.
三周不出庭简直疯了。
To go three weeks is, like, insane.
但节假日期间就是这样。
But around the holidays, this is what happens.
然后到了1月2日，就像闸门打开，全年最疯狂的时候到了——就像健身房爆满的原因一样。
And then January 2, it's like the floodgates open, and it is the craziest it is the entire year because the same reason gyms are packed.
大家都说，新年新气象，新篇章。
Everyone's like, new year, new me, new chapter.
我要甩掉200磅的累赘——就是我那该死的配偶。
I'm gonna lose 200 unwanted pounds in the form of my fucking spouse.
孩子们放假在家，整天都待在屋里。
And the kids have been home for the holiday break, and they've all been indoors.
东海岸的人都被冻得够呛，惨兮兮的，外面冷得连出门散步都不行。
And everyone on the East Coast were cold and were miserable, and you can't even, like, just go outside and go for a walk because it's so cold outside.
所以就像一场完美风暴，导致1月2日我们的日程全满，这种情况会一直持续到夏天。
So it's like this perfect storm that just leads to January 2, our calendar being completely full, and that goes all the way to the summertime.
那你觉得这是'我们先熬过节日再离婚'的情况，还是节日本身会引发...
And and so do you think it's a let's just I wanna divorce you, but let's get through the holidays first, or you think the holidays can bring about the
不是。
No.
我是说，你看。
I think well, mean, look.
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我认为人们在节日期间与家人相处时，有太多机会让彼此失望。
I think people are in with their family, and there's lots opportunities for people to disappoint each other in the holidays.
比如礼物送得不对、对家人说了不该说的话、比平时喝得更多玩得更疯、在办公室派对上做了蠢事导致拿不到期待的圣诞奖金，或是节日开销过大。
Like, they don't get the right gift or they say the wrong word to the family member or they're drinking and partying more than they normally would or they do something stupid at the office holiday party where they don't get the Christmas bonus they were counting on or they spend too much for the holidays.
这些都是我职业经历中的真实案例。
Like, these are all from experience professionally.
这些都是加剧冲突的例子，但实际上你知道，人们总有种共同善意的错觉。
Those are all examples of things that exacerbate conflict, but it really is that, you know, people just, there's a sense of like shared goodwill.
人们有个误解，以为节假日期间自杀率会上升。
You know, there's this misconception that the rate of people who die by suicide is increases for the holidays.
但其实并非如此。
And that's actually not true.
实际上自杀率是下降的。
It actually decreases.
因为人们会有这种集体性的善意氛围。
Because there is this, like, collective sense of goodwill.
是的。
Yes.
我们都觉得，现在去任何商店都很麻烦，要持续好几个月，但人们确实会显得更开心一点，对彼此也更友善一些。
We all find it, like, kinda stressful that you're going to any store is now a pain in the butt for a couple of months, but there is this sort of sense of people being a little more cheerful and a little more friendly to each other.
会有免费的东西发放，比如食物、零食之类的。
There's, like, free things being given out, you know, like food and snacks and things.
所以你可以轻松免费拿到一根拐杖糖。
So you can get like a, you know, candy cane easily for free.
而节日过后，所有人都像是刚从那种状态中抽离出来。
Whereas, like, after the holidays, everyone is just so, like, dialed up from that.
大家都因为节日消费负债累累。
Everyone's in debt from the holidays.
压力因此蔓延，导致一片混乱。
So the stress spills over and leads to, like, absolute chaos.
不过，有那么几个月的时间，确实很美好。
But, yeah, for a couple of months, it's really lovely.
所以这就是节日休战期。
So there's the holiday ceasefire.
最近几周和几个月我们还听到很多统计数据，显示婚姻正在回归并呈上升趋势，有很多积极信号。
We've also heard a lot of statistics in recent weeks and months that marriage is back and on the rise, a lot of positivity.
然后我们又会看到这些非常负面的头条和趋势。
And then we'll bounce it out with these headlines and trends that are very negative.
最新的是《Vogue》杂志某种程度上推动了这件事。是的。
The latest being that Vogue magazine kinda got the the ball rolling on this one that Yeah.
男朋友很逊。
Boyfriends are lame.
现在有男朋友对女性来说很尴尬，不是吗？
Isn't that Having a boyfriend is now embarrassing for women.
是啊。
Yeah.
对男性来说不尴尬。
Not for men.
对男性来说，有个男朋友其实还是很酷的。
Having a boyfriend for men is actually still pretty cool.
但没错，如果你是异性恋女性，有个男朋友就很逊。
But yes, having a boyfriend if you're a heterosexual woman is lame.
这就是当下最新的流行观点。
That is that is the newest wisdom that's out there now.
我想这对你的生意应该挺有利的。
It's good for business for you, I'd imagine.
呃，大概吧。
I mean, I guess so.
反正男朋友女朋友什么的又影响不到你。
Well, I guess boyfriend boyfriend girlfriend doesn't affect you in any way.
不过嘛，男女朋友关系...
It's got Well, boyfriend girlfriend
就是入门级毒品。
is the gateway drugs.
你懂我意思吗？
You know what I mean?
就像，尝尝它的味道。
Like, it's Get a taste of it.
是啊。
Yeah.
拜托，老兄。
Like, come on, man.
你得让自己沉浸在这些费洛蒙里。
Like, you gotta get hopped up on pheromones here.
就像，第一份是免费的。
Like, you're first one's free.
告诉你的朋友们。
Tell your friends.
你看，如果我要拓展业务，我才不会去酒吧搭讪女人说什么'你可以找到更好的'。
Like, you gotta like, if I if I was looking to facilitate my business, I wouldn't be going to bars, like, going up to women going, you could do better.
我只是想鼓励人们聚在一起。
I would just be encouraging people to like get together.
情人节是我生意最好的日子，因为那天人们开始兴奋起来，做出糟糕的决定，最终导致政府介入，当事情败露时最终也会牵连到我。
Like Valentine's Day is the best day for my business because it's the day where people start getting hopped up and making bad decisions that ultimately lead to them getting the government involved, that ultimately involved get me involved when that falls apart.
所以，爱是世界上最美好的东西。
So, like, love is the greatest thing in the world.
丘比特就像是...你知道的，上帝需要魔鬼。
Cupid is like my you know, God needs the devil.
懂我意思吗？
You know?
如果没有反派，那就什么都没有了。
Without the bad guy, like, there's nothing.
如果没有小丑，蝙蝠侠就只能无所事事地坐着。
Batman would just be sitting around if it wasn't for the Joker.
他就只是个穿紧身衣的家伙，你知道的，这在切尔西区很流行，但这不会让他获得太多镜头。
Like, he'd just be a dude in tights, you know, which is, again, popular in Chelsea, but it wouldn't be something that would get him a lot of screen time.
所以我们需要人们坠入爱河，这样他们才能走上红毯，才能走进法院登记结婚。
So, like, we need people to fall in love, you know, so that they can make that journey down the aisle, so that they can make that journey into into the courthouse.
但这种观念对女性而言，我觉得就像是男性孤独流行病硬币的另一面。
This, notion though for women, I I feel like it's the other side of the coin of kind of what the loneliness male epidemic.
是啊。
Yeah.
这就是年轻男性正在经历的困境——学习处理情绪，同时试图在传统与进步之间保持平衡。
That's the struggle that men, young men are going through, learning to deal with their emotions and trying to balance being traditional but progressive.
没错。
Yeah.
这就是男性的困境。
That's the male plight.
而现在女性似乎正在接受这种观念，在经历了我觉得长达数百年的'我要找个男人'之后。
And now it seems to be that women are taking on this idea of, after what I feel like hundreds of years of like, I wanna find a man.
'我要结婚'这种观念。
I wanna get married.
我想找到我的灵魂伴侣。
I want I wanna find my soul mate.
现在这一代人似乎正朝着相反的方向发展。
Now this generation seems to be going the other direction.
比如，我不需要那些。
Like, I don't need that.
而且
And as
事实上，我觉得你那样做很逊。
a matter of fact, I think it's lame that you do do that.
你知道吗，我认为他们实际上只是在做表面功夫，并非真实想法。
You know, I think they're actually I think they're this is optics and not reality.
就像，我觉得这其实是种'我们想说男人很逊，我们不需要他们'的姿态。
Like, I I think these this is a we want to say men are lame and we don't need them.
对吧。
Right.
但你需要。
But you do.
对吧？
Right?
比如，因为接下来可以看看《Vogue》杂志的其他内容。
Like, because then read the rest of Vogue magazine.
其他部分全是类似'15种取悦你男人的方法'这样的内容。
Like, the rest of it is all, like, 15 ways to please your man.
我完全理解那种'我想成为那种觉得男朋友很逊、不需要男人的人'的心态。
Like, so I get the whole, like, I want to be the kind of person who thinks boyfriends are lame and doesn't need men.
我懂。
I get it.
你把一大群女人聚在一起，她们就会说'我才不需要男人'。
You get a large group of women together, and they'll be like, I don't need no men.
男人糟透了。
Men suck.
然后第二天她们又说，我要继续坚持。
And then the next day, they're like, I'm gonna keep going.
你懂吗？
You know?
然后就会觉得，等等。
And it's like, well, wait.
我以为你不需要男人，而我们似乎...问题在于当前的时代思潮，每个标题基本上都可以归结为男人很烂。
I thought you didn't need men, and we like, it the problem is in the current zeitgeist, every headline basically boils down to men suck.
就像，归根结底就是这么回事。
Like, that's just it boils down to that.
所以你知道，这确实获得了一些媒体关注。
Like and and so, you know, it gets some press time.
得到了一些报道。
It gets some coverage.
每个人都在说，哦，男朋友真差劲。
Everyone's like, oh, boyfriends are lame.
好的。
Okay.
酷。
Cool.
男朋友都很差劲。
Boyfriends are lame.
就像，我们看，你知道，我不确定男人们是不是都在那里抱怨说'该死的'。
Like, let's like, you know, I I don't know that men are out there going like, goddamn.
比如，我真的很想要稳定的恋爱关系。
Like, I really wanted committed relationships.
我不想要这些随随便便的性关系。
Like, I didn't want all this, like, sex being thrown at me randomly.
那不是我想要的。
Like, that's not what I want.
从我小时候起就一直梦想着我的婚礼。
I've been treated in my wedding day since I was a little boy.
我这辈子从没听过任何男人说过这种话。
Never heard any man say that ever in their whole life.
这是女孩们根本不想玩的胆小鬼游戏。
That is a game of chicken that the girls do not wanna play.
不要。
Do not.
男人们和
Guys and
哦，好吧。
oh, okay.
我们就保持随意关系，不进入正式恋爱。
We'll just keep it casual and not be in a committed relationship.
噢，不。
Oh, no.
我...我愿意
I I do
很多婚前协议，很多婚前协议。
a lot of prenup, a lot of prenups.
而我我...每年这个时候我都会处理一大堆，因为很多人选择在秋天订婚。
And I I this is the time of year where I do a whole bunch of them because a lot of people get engaged in the fall.
我想是秋天的氛围吧，在Instagram上看起来很应景。
I guess fall content, it looks good on Instagram.
我也不知道。
I don't know.
但我就...或者就在节假日前，人们会订婚。
But I I I just or right before the holidays, people get engaged.
所以我处理很多婚前协议。
So I do a lot of prenups.
因为如果你够聪明，订婚后会立刻把婚前协议办好。
Because if you're smart, you get engaged, you do your prenup right away.
这样事情就搞定了。
So then it's done.
趁着大家还沉浸在订婚的喜悦中，还没为婚礼筹备感到压力时，把这事搞定就完事了。
And while everybody's still hopped up on the excitement of the engagement and not stressed about planning a wedding, and then you can you that's done.
你把协议放进保险箱，婚礼可能是一年后或八个月后，反正还早。
You put it in the safe, and the wedding's a year out or eight months out or whatever out.
现在你就可以专心筹备有趣的部分，因为法律事务已经全部搞定了。
And now you can just focus on the fun stuff because you got the legal stuff just knocked out.
不过我遇到不少女士在牌局上过度加注。
So I have a bunch of women though that are overplaying their hands.
就像有些人刚签完协议，今天就有个男的发邮件跟我说：'听着...'
Like that they are just like, well, did it and I've had guy like, had a guy email me today who said like, yeah.
告诉他们如果不修改那些条款，必须在一两天内通知我，因为我要取消部分婚礼供应商。
You know, listen, like tell them if they don't modify those things, they got to let me know within the next day or two because I have to cancel some vendors for the wedding.
我当时就想：'哦，糟糕。'
And I was like, oh, shit.
听着，这是谈判的经典法则。
Like, look, classic rule of negotiation.
谈判中随时准备离场的一方拥有优势。
Whoever was ready to walk away from the table has leverage in the negotiation.
如果你愿意转身离开车行，你就对经销商有议价优势。
If you're willing to walk off the lot, you have leverage over the car dealership.
谁准备好放弃交易谁就掌握主动权，别用'那我们结不了婚'这种话和男人玩胆小鬼博弈。
Whoever is ready to walk away from the deal has leverage and do not play chicken with guys over like, well, then I guess we won't be able to get married.
他不可能说'那就算了'。
He's not going to be like, not that.
哦不。
Oh, no.
就好像'我指望着这个呢'。
Like, I was counting on it.
就好像'我我我梦想穿燕尾服好多年了'。
Like, I I I've been dreaming of myself in a tuxedo for years.
这根本不合常理。
Like, it's just not it's just not a thing.
就像，这真的变成了，嗯，是啊。
Like, I it really turns into, like, yeah.
我很抱歉。
I'm sorry.
我想我们没法结婚了。
I guess we can't get married then.
这真的很遗憾。
That's really unfortunate.
我本来很期待的。
I was looking forward to it.
你知道吗？
You know?
嗯，同样地，这个例子可以算是这种现象的具体体现。
Well, along the same lines here, this here, I guess, is kind of a tangible example of this.
这是来自Instagram上Harriet Richardson的内容。
This is from Harriet Richardson on Instagram.
她是一位作家，似乎还兼诗人、艺术家等多重身份。
She's a an author and it seems like a poet and an artist and all those things.
她在自己的Substack上发表了这篇文章。
And she wrote this on her Substack.
她提出了一个观点：故意在床上表现糟糕将作为她最后的女性主义行为。
She came up with the idea that she's gonna intentionally be bad in bed as her final feminist act.
这篇文章（或者说这篇Substack）主要讲述她意识到自己从未为自身享受而进行性行为。
This article or these this this substack basically said, she realized that she was never having sex for herself.
她始终在为取悦男性而表演。
She was always performing for the male.
比如'抓我头发'、'拍我屁股'、'说些下流话'这些行为。
Meaning, pull my hair, slap my ass, let's dirty talk.
因为这些都是男人想要的。
Because these are all the things that the man wants.
而现在她决定要像湿毯子一样扫兴——彻底停止这种迎合。
And now she has decided, I'm gonna, I'm gonna wet blanket it.
我决定在床上当个'海星枕边公主'，因为这是我主动做出的选择，也是我的女权主义行动。
I'm gonna starfish pillow princess in bed because that's what I'm making that choice and that's my feminist act.
这就是我和她分手的原因。
This is why she and I broke up.
知道吗，因为所有那些'扯我头发'、'拍我屁股'的部分，都只是前戏而已。
Know, because all the pull my hair smack my ass part, that was the previews.
然后她就说：'嘿，你喜欢我的新诗吗？'
And then she's like, hey, how do you like my new poem?
顺便说一句，我现在就躺这儿不动了。
And by the way, I'm just gonna lay here now.
我当时就想：'好吧，哈丽特。'
And I was like, alright, Harriet.
真是谢谢您嘞。
Thanks a whole lot.
顺便说一句，现在还有人叫哈丽特这个名字呢。
By the way, there's still people named Harriet.
这样感觉很好。
That feels good.
你知道吗？
You know?
知道这件事感觉很好。
It feels good to know that.
就像，只有叫Harriet的人才会做出这种事。
Like, that you're like like, only a Harriet would be this story.
不会有叫Britney的人做出这种决定。
There'd be no Britney who decided this.
明白吗？
You know?
也不会有叫Lindsay的人做出这种决定。
There'd be no Lindsay who decided this.
懂我意思吗？
You know?
这很符合Harriet的作风。
It's a very Harriet move.
你懂吗？
You know?
但话说回来，感觉就像是
But again, it feels like one of
那种情况，如果那是你对付男人的策略，
those things like, if that's your, if that's your strategy against men,
我只是觉得事情不会按你预期的发展。
I just don't think this is gonna go the way you think it's gonna go.
就是，我不认为这是个好策略。
Like, I don't I don't think that that's a great move.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我是说，听着，我确实觉得有些话要说。
I mean, look, I I certainly think there is something to be said.
我刚读完路易丝·佩里的书《反对性革命》，
I just finished reading, Louise Perry's book, the case against the sexual revolution.
我必须告诉你，这本书写得非常好，而且是一本极其支持女权主义的书。
And I have to tell you, it is very, very well written and extremely pro feminist book.
但它的基本观点是，性革命对女性来说其实是件坏事。
But it basically says that, like, yeah, the sexual revolution was bad for women.
本质上是在告诉女性：'你们现在可以像那些堕落男人一样，只追求性爱而不需要任何承诺'，
Like, basically saying to women, like, yeah, you can be like degenerates who just like to have sex and don't have any commitment just like men can be.
这并没有诚实地反映大多数女性真正想要的东西。
Wasn't honest about what most women really want.
很多男性确实想要没有承诺的性关系和众多伴侣，但这其实并不能让大多数女性获得满足。
Like, that's something a lot of men want is like sex without commitment and with lots and lots of partners, and that isn't actually something that most women find satisfying.
所以说'你现在可以像男人一样糟糕'，这其实并不是一种赋权。
So saying that, well, you can be as awful as men now isn't really a form of empowerment.
我认为值得思考的是：如果你为了在床上表现得像个演员而背叛自己的真实情感状态，这实际上剥夺了你对性体验的享受。
So look, I think there is something to be said for if you are betraying your emotional state by feeling like you have to perform like a actress in bed, And that's taking away from your enjoyment of your experience.
我认为这方面值得探讨。
I think there's something to be looked at there.
这其中是有价值的。
There's value there.
我不认为这本身就是愚蠢、自私或短视的行为。
I don't think that that's in and of itself like a stupid or selfish or shortsighted act.
但如果说'我就故意在床上表现很差'。
But saying, well, I'm just going to intentionally be bad in bed.
那也许干脆就不要和男性发生关系了。
Like, well, then maybe just don't have sex with men at that point.
这样也没问题。
Like, that's okay.
你可以选择与无性恋者建立关系，同样能获得快乐。
Like, there's you may have relationships with people that are asexual that'll be enjoyable.
或者你也可以直接决定不与人建立恋爱关系。
Or, you know, you may just say, okay, I'm just not going to have relationships with people.
但故意用某种手段欺骗伴侣的体验，这看起来确实不是一件明智之举。
But to intentionally sort of, you know, subterfuge your partner's experience, like it doesn't really seem like a very sensible thing to do.
我认为色情内容对性行为的过度包装，给人们设置了太多不必要的障碍。
I think that the level of jumping through hoops that sort of the pornification of sex has created for people.
我确实认为现在人们从很小年纪就接触了大量色情内容，导致很多女性认为她们应该模仿色情片中女性的行为方式——而这些内容主要是为男性制作的。
I do think people now have had exposure to such amounts of pornography from such a young age that a lot of women think the way they're supposed to act is the way women act in pornography, which is predominantly made for men.
男性也认为性就应该像他们在色情电影中看到的那样。
And the way that men think sex is supposed to be is the sex that they're seeing in pornographic films.
而我认为事实并非如此。
And I don't think that's necessarily true.
实际上，如果你仔细想想色情片中的性行为，就会发现它们完全是为了追求视觉效果——怎样看起来好看，怎样更具视觉冲击力。
I actually think that, you know, if you think about the kind of sex that's happening in pornography, it's really designed what looks good, what's visually compelling.
比如我之前看过Lad Bible的一个视频——我曾和他们合作出镜过。
Like, I I was watching a a video, Lad Bible who I've done an appearance with before.
他们做过这种诚实问答式的采访。
They have these, like, honesty box interviews.
他们给我做过一次。
They did one with me.
值得一看。
It's worth looking up.
其中一期采访了一位色情片导演。
One of them was with a porn director.
他基本上就是说，没错。
And he basically said, like, yeah.
那些看起来精彩的性爱实际上并不那么有趣。
Like, the sex that looks good actually isn't, like, the most fun.
比如反向女上位时根本没人享受。
Like, no one's having fun in reverse cowgirl.
没人觉得舒服。
No one's having fun.
男方在反向女上位时什么都看不到，而女方的大腿都快累断了。
The guy can't see anything worth seeing in reverse cowgirl, and the girl's, like, thighs are killing her.
就像，其实没人玩得开心，但如果你对着人拍就会显得很棒，因为你能同时拍到两人的正面，视觉效果绝佳。
Like, no one's having fun, but it looks great if you're pointing a camera at someone because you're seeing both people's front and you're seeing it's a great visual shot.
就像在淋浴间做爱一样。
Just like sex in a shower.
在电影里看起来很棒。
Looks great in the movies.
在哪儿看起来都很棒。
Looks great everywhere.
但并不有趣。
Not fun.
冲掉了所有天然润滑剂。
Washing off every natural lubricant.
没人享受其中。
No one's having a good time.
根本使不上劲。
There's no leverage.
所有人都在打滑。
Everyone's slipping.
真他妈一团糟。
It's a fucking mess.
不过看起来不错。
So but it looks good.
所以如果你只追求视觉效果，问题就在于，你性爱的目的是什么？
So if you're just trying to go for the visual, you know, the question is is like, what is the purpose of your sex?
如果性爱关乎连接、满足，那种让自己和伴侣都满足的状态，可能是五五开，有时他们占70%，你占30%，而其他时候你占70%，他们占30%。
If sex is about connection, satisfaction, those kind of satisfying yourself and your partner and maybe equal measure or sometimes it's 70 for them, 30% for you, and then other times 70 for you, 30 for them.
就像这样，良好的关系才能维持。
Like, that's how good relationships work out.
并不总是五五分成。
It's not fifty fifty all the time.
有时是八二开，然后你知道，其他时候反过来三七开。
It's eighty twenty sometimes and then, you know, thirty seventy the other times in the other direction.
归根结底，只要时间线拉得足够长，每个人都会觉得自己的需求得到了满足。
And ultimately, over a long enough timeline, everyone's feeling like their needs are being met.
我觉得如果你一开始就打算说'我要在床上表现得很差劲'，那干脆就别费这个劲了。
I think if you just, you know, set out to say, I'm gonna be bad in bed for my partner, just don't bother.
真的，不如现在就分手吧。
Like, just break up now.
好吧。
Alright.
让我们来看一封读者来信。
Let's get into a reader submission.
好的。
Alright.
这其实是来自你Instagram的一条评论。
This is actually a comment from your Instagram.
这条评论来自'噢天哪'。
This comes from Oh boy.
C barb 77。
C barb seventy seven.
C barb 77。
C barb seventy seven.
而这实际上
And this actually
你这个捣蛋鬼。
You rascal.
这与节目前半部分衔接得非常完美。
This ties into the first half of the episode very nicely.
为什么要选择一份看着别人崩溃的工作？
Why would you choose a job where you watch people fall apart?
说实话，我想以不带评判的方式了解原因。
I honestly wanna know in a non judgmental way.
是啊。
Yeah.
这是个好问题。
That's a great question.
我不这么看。
I don't view it that way.
我认为这些人无论如何都会崩溃，他们正在寻找能帮助他们解决两件事的人。
I view it as these people are falling apart no matter what, and they are looking for someone to help them with two things.
第一，识别出他们崩溃过程中产生的无数问题。
One, identifying the myriad of problems that are coming as a function of their falling apart.
第二，帮助他们为人生新篇章构建框架。
And two, helping create architecture for the next chapter of their life.
而后者最吸引我的地方在于，这种事情你无法假装是故意让它发生的。
And that latter part is the part that always intrigued me the most was that this is something you can't pretend you meant to have happen.
就像，糟糕的事情总是会发生。
Like, shit happens all the time.
但有些时候，你多少知道这可能是件坏事，或者问题可能是你自己造成的。
But some of it, you kind of knew this was potentially a bad thing or maybe you caused your own problem.
你知道吗？
You know?
比如，你不锻炼身体，现在出现了一些健康问题。
Like, you didn't exercise and now you have some health problems.
或者你是个烟民，明知该戒烟却一直没戒。
Or you were a smoker, and you knew you should quit, but you didn't.
现在你就有了一些健康问题。
And now you have some health issue.
这是那种事情，就像每个人结婚时都希望婚姻美满，但结果却事与愿违。
This is one of those things that, like, everybody when they got married meant for it to work out, and then it didn't.
而现在你面临着一大堆问题。
And now you've got this whole mess of problems.
我是个非常擅长解决问题的人。
I'm a very good problem solver.
我知道自己具备一套技能，能帮助人们识别问题并找到创造性的解决方案。
I knew I had a skill set that would enable me to help people identify problems and find, you know, creative solutions to them.
我是个出色的即兴演讲者，所以在法庭上表现很好。
I'm a good extemporaneous speaker, so I'm good in a courtroom.
我热爱证据规则。
I love the rules of evidence.
我是个法律书呆子。
I'm a law geek.
我喜欢追踪法律领域的创新。
I love following innovation in the law.
这就像看着一个儿科肿瘤学家问，你为什么喜欢看孩子得癌症？
So I really it's kind of like looking at someone who's a pediatric oncologist and saying, why do you like watching kids have cancer?
我不认为那是他们享受的事情。
I don't think that's what they enjoy.
我认为真正的原因是，他们喜欢用自己的工具和才能去帮助那些遭遇了本不该发生、无论如何都绝对糟糕的事情的人，也许你能让情况变得稍微好一点。
I think what it is is they like putting their tools and talent to the benefit of someone that's going through something that they never meant to have happen and that is by any metric absolutely awful, and maybe you can make it a little bit better.
这就是为什么二十五年过去了，我仍然非常热爱我的工作。
And that's why I still after twenty five years, like, I still really enjoy my work.
这就是为什么我不知道自己是否会放弃这份工作，无论媒体事业多么成功——因为我真心享受陪伴人们度过这个过程，看着他们走出困境，见证他们人生新篇章的展开，并知道自己为他们的下一段旅程扫清道路贡献了绵薄之力。
It's why I I don't know that I'll ever give it up no matter how big the media stuff is because I really still enjoy, like, being with people when they're going through this process, seeing them come out the other side of it, watching their next chapter evolve, knowing that I played some small part in that chapter in the in the in the clearing the road for the next thing for them.
我见证过一些人经历这一切后，在人生中开启了精彩的新篇章。
And I've watched some people, like, just go through it and find amazing, you know, new chapters in their lives.
能知道自己参与其中，这种感觉真的非常非常美好。
And to know that I played some part in that is a really, really wonderful feeling.
所以我理解这个问题的含义：这会让你感到压抑吗？
So I I understand what the question is, which is does it depress you?
整天目睹人们经历这些可怕的事情会让你难过吗？
Does it make you sad to watch people going through these horrible things all day long?
并不会，因为我并非以那种方式体验这一切。
It doesn't because I I don't experience it that way.
就像我那位儿科肿瘤医生朋友，他每天走进医院时不会想着'天啊这些孩子得了癌症'。
Just like my friend who's a pediatric oncologist, he doesn't every day go in and go, oh my god, these kids have cancer.
就像——愿上帝保佑——你绝不希望自己的孩子得癌症。
Like, that's you don't want god forbid your kid had cancer.
你不会希望儿科肿瘤医生是那种反应。
You don't want the pediatric oncologist to be like that.
你希望他们能镇定地说：好的。
You want them to go, okay.
这种情况我见过。
I've seen this before.
病情是这样的。
Here's what it is.
我们将采取以下治疗方案。
This is what we're going to do.
如果无效，我们还有备选方案。
If that doesn't work, here's plan b.
你需要他们保持冷静，因为你在风暴中，需要有人帮你导航。
You want them to be level headed because you're in the storm, and you need someone who's gonna help you navigate the storm.
我很荣幸能成为那个导航者。
I love being that person.
我真的很珍惜能成为那样的人的机会。
I I really like having the opportunity to be that person.
这能充分发挥我的技能，我也乐于服务他人。
It's a good use of my skill set, and I like to be of service.
所以这才是真正的答案。
So that's the real answer.
总是乐于助人啊，吉姆。
Always trying to help the people, Jim.
我是人民公仆。
I'm a man of the people.
事实就是如此。
That is what it is.
我感觉自己是...
I feel like one of the
你帮助他们最好的方式就是通过'性暗示'。
best ways you help them is with sextinisms.
哦，天哪。
Oh boy.
抛出一句箴言。
Drop a gem on.
往墙上甩一句性爱格言。
Dropping a sextinism on the wall.
我知道这完全没有前戏可言。
I know there's no foreplay at all.
好吧。
All right.
等等。
Hold on.
我需要...我需要...
I need to I need to.
我觉得这话刚好从我脑袋顶上冒出来。
Think I just happened right on the top of my head.
是啊。
Yeah.
等等。
Hold on.
好吧。
Alright.
今天的'性战术'是从海豹突击队那里借鉴来的。
Today's sextidism is something that was stolen from the Navy Seals.
我在军人家庭长大，所以我父亲经常引用军事格言。
I grew up in a military household, so my father was constantly quoting military isms.
其中我最爱反复说的一句是：'没有任何计划能在与敌人首次接触后存活'。
And one of my favorites that I repeat constantly is no plan survives first contact with the enemy.
'没有任何计划能在与敌人首次接触后存活'。
No plan survives first contact with the enemy.
所以现实情况是，我的工作就是当一名战略家。
So the reality is is my job is to be a strategist.
我的工作就是制定计划。
My job is to have a plan.
我的工作其实是制定多个计划，因为你知道，两个计划才是一个，一个计划等于没有。
My job is to actually have multiple plans because, you know, two is one and one is none.
就是说，你必须要有多个计划。
Like, you have to have multiple plans.
如果你有计划A而没有计划B，那你等于没有任何计划，因为没有任何计划能在与敌人的首次交锋中幸存。
If you have a plan a and no plan b, you have no plan at all Because no plan survives first contact with the enemy.
一旦你踏入法庭、审判开始时，你的计划就会完全失效，你只能对各种策略和路径保持一个模糊的概念。
As soon as you step into the courtroom and the trial begins, that's when your plan goes out the window and you just have to have like a loose concept of various strategies and paths that you're going to take.
必须对自身处境有非常牢固的掌控力。
Have a very solid command of your situation.
绝不放弃优势，始终保持 ]
Never yield an advantage and just be ready to move forward.
变化才是唯一的不变。
Change is the only constant.
混乱是唯一不变的常态。
Chaos is the only constant.
没有任何计划能在与敌人初次交锋后幸存。
No plan survives first contact with the enemy.
嘿。
Hey.
非常感谢你今天再次抽时间与我们相聚。
Thanks so much for spending some time with us again today.
很高兴见到大家。
It was great to see you all.
记得访问sextonshow.com。
Remember to go to sextonshow.com.
别忘了点赞、订阅、敲响通知铃。
Remember, like, subscribe, hit that notification bell.
这确实有助于频道成长，我们由衷感谢每一位观众。
It really is helping the channel grow, and we really appreciate every single one of you.
我们很快会再见的。
We will see you again soon.
但现在，我们到此结束。
But for now, we are adjourned.
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