本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
这里是iHeart播客。
This is an iHeart podcast.
保证真人发声。
Guaranteed human.
你在经营生意，却没想过做播客？
Run a business and not thinking about podcasting?
再想想吧。
Think again.
现在听播客的美国人，比用Spotify和Pandora听广告支持流媒体音乐的人还多。
More Americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.
作为排名第一的播客平台，iHeart的规模是紧随其后的两家加起来的两倍。
And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.
来了解一下播客如何助力你的生意。
Learn how podcasting can help your business.
拨打844844。
Call 844844
我是Hoda Cottonbee，播客《Joy 101 with Hoda Cottonbee》的主持人。
I'm Hoda Cottonbee, host of the podcast Joy one zero one with Hoda Cottonbee.
你知道，我一直在寻找灵感和有用的工具来最大化快乐。
You know, I'm always searching for inspiration and useful tools to maximize joy.
比如当我的朋友亨利·温克勒给有抱负的演员以及任何想脱颖而出的人提供建议时。
Like when my friend Henry Winkler offered advice to aspiring actors and really anybody hoping to stand out.
你被雇佣不仅仅是为了填补时间和空间。
You're not hired just to fill time and space.
你被雇佣是为了用你自己来填补这个空间。
You're hired to fill the space with you.
收听Joy 101
Listen to Joy 101
在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何你收听播客的地方，与Hodakotbi一起。
with Hodakotbi on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
我们的家乡不是试管。
Our hometown is not a test tube.
在纳什维尔东北方向90英里处，一个小镇正在上演一场关乎美国未来的较量。
90 miles Northeast Nashville, a battle for the future of America plays out in one small town.
与右翼有联系的开发商已经购买了数百英亩的土地。
Developers with right wing ties have purchased hundreds of acres of land.
我们需要山巅之城。
We need cities on a shining hill.
这是我们的播客，讲述一个小镇成为社会实验场所并奋起反抗的故事。
This is Our podcast about what happens when a small town becomes the site of a social experiment and fights back.
猜你没想到会碰到一群
Guess you didn't move in on a bunch
愚蠢的乡巴佬吧？
of dumb hillbillies now, did you?
在iHeartRadio应用、Apple播客或任何你收听播客的地方收听《我们的城镇》。
Listen to Our Town on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your
是
be
你肯定会那样。
you're sure to that.
我就是那样。
I'm you're that.
这只不过是他们把DEI乱贴标签的最新例子。
Is just the latest example of them just slapping DEI on anything.
太赤裸裸了。
It's raw.
我坐在这儿想，他们就是在把你们当傻子耍。
And I'm sitting here going, they are playing y'all for fools.
收听罗兰·马丁的每日评论
Catch Roland Martin's daily commentary
在黑人信息网络上。
on the Black Information Network.
然后在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts上下载Roland Martin Unfiltered。
And download Roland Martin unfiltered on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts
或者在你听播客的任何地方。
Or wherever you get your podcasts.
这里是Zone Media。
Call zone media.
大家好，欢迎来到《Better Offline》节目。
Hello, and welcome to Better Offline.
我是你们的主持人，Ed Zitron。
I'm, of course, your host, Ed Zitron.
Better Offline。
Better Offline.
我又回到了 iHeartRadio 的演播室，在这里为大家带来直播内容，技术上是从美丽的纽约市进行转播。
I am back in the iHeartRadio studio bringing you it all live to tape technically from here in beautiful New York City.
今天，我有幸请到了两位来自 Better Offline 合唱团的老朋友，他们曾参加过 CES 2026，而且很可能也会出现在 2027 年的活动中。
And today, I'm joined by two returning angels of the Better Offline Choir from CES twenty '26 and very likely 2027 as well.
在我右边的是非常棒的克洛伊·拉德克利夫（Chloe Radcliffe），她
On my right, I have the wonderful Chloe Radcliffe, the
你好。
Hello.
演员、作家、作者,现在什么都算上了。
Actress and author and writer and everything at this point.
我还没写过书,但我读了很多。你写过剧本什么的。
You're I haven't written a book, but I read a lot of You ran you ran scripts and shit.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我想，算是吧。
Guess I guess yes.
对。
Yeah.
作家。
Writer.
而且，节目的重头戏是，你有一个即将上演的节目。
And and top of the top of the show, you have a show coming up.
我确实有一个即将上演的节目。
I do have a show coming up.
对。
Yeah.
我正在做我的个人秀。
I'm doing my solo show.
名字叫《作弊》。
It's called Cheat.
就是讲我在所有感情里都出过轨。
It's about how I have, uh-oh, cheated in all of my relationships.
这个节目不是要美化出轨。
The show does not condone cheating.
我觉得出轨总是不好的。
I think it is always bad.
我觉得出轨总会伤害某个人，但这破事真的经常发生，而且没人愿意把麦克风怼到自己脸上说’我做过‘。
I think it always hurts somebody, but I think it happens all the fucking time, and nobody's willing to stick a microphone microphone in front of their face and say that they did it.
而恰好我就是那个人。
And I happen to be the one.
总之，我在8月19号和20号在纽约的Joe's Pub演这一场。
Anyway, I'm doing it August nineteenth and twentieth at Joe's Pub in New York City.
我觉得肯定会特别精彩。
It's gonna be I think it's really gonna be amazing.
我
I've
我觉得很棒。
I've seen fantastic.
我觉得会很棒的，哥们。
I think it's gonna be amazing, dude.
我觉得会很好玩的。
I think it's gonna be fun.
不是吧。
No.
我是说，你看。
It's I think look.
我为这个演出感到非常自豪。
I'm very proud of the show.
我见过它打动过很多人。
I have seen it I've seen it hit people.
而且
And
我看了旧版。
I watched the old version.
那部很棒，而且是两年前的事了。
It was fantastic, and that was two years ago.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
当然，还有埃德·翁格韦索，作家兼评论家。
And, of course, mister Ed Ongweso Jr, writer and critic.
你好吗，埃迪？
How are doing, Eddie?
我挺好的，
I'm doing pretty good,
你知道的。
you know.
祝你今天愉快。
Have a nice day.
所以我和Ed
So Ed and I are
节奏完全不同。
in such different paces.
我早上五点就起来了，因为一整天都在忙媒体的事，但这就是Zitron的力量。
Well, I've been up since five in the morning because I've been doing media stuff all day, but that's that's the power of Zitron.
不过我们先从你开始，Chloe。
But we're gonna start with you, Chloe.
我其实想直接问你一个问题。
I wanted to actually ask you a very direct question.
所以你要去好莱坞了。
So you're going Hollywood.
你一直在演艺圈里。
You've been in the acting business.
你在好莱坞看到AI应用在哪些方面？
What have you seen of AI in Hollywood?
因为如果你读像The Ankler那样的八卦媒体，他们会说AI无处不在。
Because if you read crap like The Ankler, they're like, it's everywhere.
现在每一样东西都是用AI写的。
Every every single thing is written in AI now.
你实际看到了什么？如果有的话。
What have you seen, if anything?
确实，AI正在取代一些工作，比如视觉特效和动画，这是肯定的。
It is I mean, it's carving out jobs like VFX and animation for sure.
在制作过程中，尤其是后期制作，有很多环节真的被AI侵蚀得很厉害。
There's a bunch of stuff in production, particularly in post production, that is really, really, really being eaten by AI.
对。
Right.
我认识的编剧里，没人真的在主动用AI。
I don't know any screenwriters who are, like, actively using AI.
当然也有可能有人在私下用，对吧。
It's totally possible that people are in the background Right.
他们只是不提这事儿。
And they're just not talking about it.
我其实，怎么说呢，骨子里是个脱口秀演员，我就是从脱口秀出来的。
I had so I I you know, at my core, I'm a stand up, and I come from stand up.
我当时就想，脱口秀演员不会用AI。
And I was like, no stand ups are using AI.
我们都觉得这事儿蠢透了。
We all think it's fucking dumb.
结果最近有个高管跟我说，她在很多脱口秀演员参加的会议上听到，大家都说脱口秀演员全都在用AI写段子或者帮忙写段子，这简直太离谱了。
And then an exec told me recently that she hears in so many meetings with stand ups that stand ups all use AI to write their jokes or help them write their jokes, which is so fucking insane.
真是太蠢了。
It's so dumb.
而且这也说明，我觉得很多喜剧开始变得趋同了。
And it's also like, well, that's why I mean, I do think that there's a lot of comedy that's starting to sort of coalesce.
听起来有点千篇一律了。
It's starting to sound the same a little bit.
我就想，是不是因为这个原因。
And I'm like, I wonder if that's why.
不过有意思的是，我们已经看到在没有AI的情况下，文化也开始变得单一了。对。
So what's interesting about that though is because we're already seeing a mono culture develop outside of AI that Mhmm.
大家都在做同样的事情，然后把它包装起来，卖个一百万次。
People are trying to do the same thing and box it up and sell it a million times.
所以我一点也不意外。
So I'm kind of unsurprised.
说脱口秀演员用AI写段子，这想法真是
The idea that stand ups would write jokes using AI is
太丢人了。
So embarrassing.
我想，如果你是这个节目的听众，并且认识这样的人，请发邮件给我，地址是 easy@betteroffline.com
I wanna I want if you are a listener of this show and you know one, please email me easy@betteroffline.com
或者什么的，说点什么。
or something, say something.
对。
Yeah.
这很重要。
This is important.
我也明白。
And I do look.
我理解那种想找个东西来激发灵感的想法。
I understand the idea of, like, having something to bounce your ideas off of.
比如说，帮我 brainstorm 一下这个概念的各个角度。
To say, like, what are other you know, help me brainstorm angles on this concept.
帮我 brainstorm 一下观点，我理解这种冲动，但这归根结底是围绕在艺术中使用 AI 的核心争论，即我们是否重视艺术是由人类创作的。
Help me brainstorm takes like, I I understand that impulse, but it comes down to the core debate around using AI in art, which is do we value that art is made by humans?
而且，我就是，从心底里，是的。
And, like, I just, at my core Yeah.
我确实这么认为。
I do.
而且我们是否重视，当你使用AI作为头脑风暴工具时，你实际上是在……我想，有一种观点认为，你有点奇怪地在利用其他人，因为它本质上是在吞噬别人已有的想法。
And and do we value that when you're using AI, you know, as a brainstorming tool, what you are I guess I guess there's the argument that you're, like, sort of weirdly using other humans because it's fundamentally eating ideas that other people have had.
对。
Right.
而且所以你有点像是，我我我能理解有人是怎么为自己辩解的。
And and so you are sort of like, I I I can wrap my head around how somebody justifies it.
我不是说这些工具很糟糕，你知道，就像……
I don't mean to be like, these fucking tools, you know, like
我的意思是，
I mean,
让我来替你做这件事。
let me do that for you.
对。
Yeah.
很好。
Great.
因为说清楚一点，虽然我自己没说过脱口秀，但看过的也算多了，我觉得你唯一不想把段子拿给别的脱口秀演员过目的原因，就是他们可能觉得不好笑，然后给你直接的反馈，是你不想听的，或者你不尊重他们。
Because just to be clear, I think if if having not done stand up, but just witnessing enough of it, I feel like the only reason you wouldn't run your material by another stand up is they might not find it funny, and they might give you direct feedback that you don't like or you don't respect them.
就像，肯定是这两种情况之一，绝对是的。
Like, it's one of the two, surely.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得很多人，你在这一行越资深，就越少跟别人对稿子，更多的是第一次就直接上台试。不过，是的。
I mean, I think a lot of people I think the more senior you get in the industry, the less you're running your material by people, and the more you are just trying it on stage for the first time, But yeah.
你知道吗，对我来说，这很大程度上真的归结为一个核心问题：是人还是电脑，这很重要。
You know, I I like to me, so much of this is it really just comes down to the core of it matters if it is human versus a computer.
如果是电脑，我就不太在意了。
I care less if it is a computer.
我倒是很佩服我们造出了这么一台大型数据库机器。
I'm impressed that we made a big database machine.
我觉得这台数据库机器真的很酷。
I think the database machine is very cool.
哇，这太……
It wow.
这真的太……
That is it is so too
到那个阶段。
at that point.
太对了。
Too.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
而且我真的很在意那种源自真人本身的质感。
And and I I do really care about the texture that comes from a person themselves.
对。
Yeah.
而且，脱口秀其实是在讲人类生命的脆弱性。
And also, stand up is about the brittleness of human life.
就像，我是说，我
Like, it's about like, I
完全同意。
don't Absolutely.
哦，完全同意。
Oh, totally.
我的意思是，AI可以告诉你别人关于焦虑的各种说法，但AI本身不会经历焦虑，也永远不会有那种个人的、亲身的感受和理解。
I mean, like, an AI can tell you an amalgamation of what other people have have said about anxiety, but an AI does not experience anxiety and will never actually have a personal, a personal touch, a personal understanding of it.
它不会反驳你。
It's not gonna push back.
它永远不会说，是啊，老兄。
It's never gonna say, yeah, dude.
那太糟糕了。
That sucks.
不。
No.
那太惨了。
That blows.
就像
Like
哦，我的意思是，很大程度上是因为它给出的建议都很烂。
Oh, I mean, also because in in no small part because a lot of what it is suggesting sucks.
对。
Yes.
从脱口秀写作的角度来看确实如此。
It's from a stand up, from a stand up writing perspective.
它也是个只会一味吹捧的家伙。
It's also a glazing machine.
它的存在是为了让你感觉良好，但这并不是你从站会中想要的。我知道包括你在内的大家都不希望别人只是敷衍地说‘太棒了’。
It exists to make you feel good about it, which is not what you want from the from the stand ups I know, including you, it's like, you don't want people to just be like, that was great.
不，不是这样的。
Well, no.
哦，其实大家特别渴望听到这种话。
Oh, stand ups want that desperately.
你开玩笑吧？
Are you kidding?
不。
No.
不。
No.
所以如果
So if
你其实想要的是——那才是脱口秀真正重要的两件事。
you actually want That's sort of the two real things stand up.
对。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
但当你站在台上时，你确实想要那种感觉。
But when you're on stage, you want that.
在台下，当你希望笑话效果好，如果想练素材，然后
Off stage, when you want the joke to be good, if you wanna run material and
把它演砸了。
get it bad.
所以现在你面对的问题就是，这是个很人性的原则，这个原则就是：你想逼迫自己创作出最好的作品吗？
So now what you're coming to is again, this is act it's it's it's a very human principle, and that principle is, do you want to push yourself to create art that is the best it possibly could could be?
还是说你满足于那些只为了逗笑或者别什么目的的东西？
Or are you satisfied with something that is that serves the purpose of getting a laugh or insert whatever.
对吧？
Right?
就是为了目的，我们回到好莱坞。
That serves the purpose we going back to Hollywood.
你是否满足于那些只是为了让你眼前有画面能动二十分钟到五十分钟的东西？
Are you satisfied with something that serves the purpose of moving pictures in front of your eyes for twenty to fifty minutes?
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
或者二十到一百二十分钟。
Or twenty to a hundred and twenty minutes.
随便啦。
Whatever.
还是说，你内心有没有那股劲，想做出真正有创意、突破界限、有意思、让人觉得新鲜的东西？
Or do you want do you have the drive within yourself to make something that is earnestly creative and boundary pushing and interesting and feels new.
就是那种对老话题的新解读，让观众觉得被看见了，也让你自己觉得被看见了，诸如此类。
It feels like a new take on an old topic on a thing that we've all thought, you know, that that's making people in the audience feel seen, that's making yourself feel seen, whatever.
而这条线，在我看来，就是区分我尊重的人和我不太尊重其努力的人的标准。
And that's it's the that line is where is to me what divides people who I respect versus people I whose efforts I don't respect as much.
而那些我不太尊重其努力的人，往往最后就落入了“套路”的范畴，而“套路”就是为了碾压而存在的。
And the people whose efforts I don't respect as much wind up oftentimes falling in the category of hack, and hack is built to crush.
这就是“套路”的唯一目的。
And that is the only purpose of hack.
套路的做法就是尽量做到最广泛
What hack is to do is to be the broadest possible
对。
Mhmm.
也就是选取覆盖面最广的梗、笑点或者话题，让尽可能多的人都能产生共鸣，这样虽然能取悦大众，但在我看来，却毫无灵魂。
Take or broadest possible reference or broadest possible punchline or broadest possible topic that the most people can relate to so that it crushes, but to me, crushes without a soul.
这其实就是内容跟艺术的区别。
And it's it's content versus art.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
机器？
Machine?
你是……这版本还挺有意思的。
Are you And it's kind of a funny version.
艾德，你当然在用Substack，你可能已经看到这个了。
Ed, you're on Substack, of course, you might have seen this.
我现在最喜欢的一个例子就是Substack，他们可能是有史以来第一次做出了一个好的产品功能，他们加了一个叫Pangram AI的东西，就像一个不错的AI检测器。
My favorite version of this right now is Substack, in their first good product move in possibly ever, they added something called Pangram AI, which is like a decent AI checker.
这些东西没有一个是完全不自然的。
None of these things are unnaturally correct.
所以你可以点一个按钮，上面写着“检查AI”。
And so you can hit a button that says check for AI.
你会以为Substack上发生了九一一事件，因为大家都在说，我简直不敢相信。
You'd think a thousand nine elevens happened on Substack because people are like, I can't believe this.
我简直不敢相信。
I can't believe that.
他们在羞辱我。
They're shaming me.
他们因为我用AI而羞辱我。
They're shaming me for using AI.
而且这真的很棒。
And it's beautiful.
确实很棒。
It is beautiful.
我很难过地发现，我引用过很多文章，因为它们像学术报告一样，我当时想，哦，这是TIERCE之类的，但它指向了我感兴趣的方向，结果它们是用生成式AI写的。
I I sadly found out a bunch of essays I've quoted at length because they were they had, you know, they're like academic reports, I was like, oh, know, this is, you know, it's TIERCE and whatever, but it pointed the direction of something that I was interested in following up or written with generative AI.
联系了作者，他们没回复。
Hit up the authors, they have not responded.
比如
Like
Substack上大部分内容，我女朋友指出的，这是她的主意，给她点credit。
most of Substack is girlfriend pointed this out to me, this is her idea, just to give her credit.
但她发现了这个并给我看，这很好，因为有些人会说，指出这个其实不公平。
But she found this and showed it to me, and it's great because there are these people who are like, actually, it's unfair to point this out.
你会因为别人用自动更正就评判他们吗？
Would you judge someone if they used autocorrect?
不是。
No.
那是另一回事。
That's a different thing.
那不是一回事。
That's not the same thing
完全不是。
at all.
自动更正不是想法。
That's not autocorrect is not an idea.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得可以这么说，如果你要展示这些内容，需要别人花时间仔细阅读，就像我会链接所有来源，也会说明我的想法来源，如果有另一位作者，你应该知道。
I think it's fair to say that if you are presenting this, as if this requires your attention to read at length, just as I'm hyperlinking all my sources, just as I'm articulating all the sources of my thinking, if there's another author, you should know.
我也应该知道。
And I should know.
其实也是，能看出来，我跟那些写太长的人说，只要普通人一开始写四千字的文章，你会觉得，哎呀，不对劲。
The thing is as well, it's like, can kind of tell, and I say this to someone who writes way too long, whenever a regular person starts writing 4,000 word essays, you're like, uh-uh.
这就是那个三件事，厉害的家伙们。
It's the three thing thing, glorious bastards.
对。
Yeah.
他们就是那三件事。
They're the three thing.
看吧，就是，好吧，你为什么这样？
See, it's just like, well, yeah, why are you doing this?
然后第一个链接就是这样的。
And there's like, the first link is this.
我就想，行吧，混蛋。
It's like, okay, motherfucker.
我知道你想干什么。
I know what you're up to.
而且，现在金融新闻里有多少是这样的，真是让人吃惊。
And it's, like, alarming how much of financial journalism is this now.
对。
Mhmm.
而且看这里的分裂真的很有意思，因为有些人说，我用它来搜索，但我觉得我不该这么做。
And you it's really interesting watching the fractionate fracturing here, because you've got some people like, I've used it for search, and like, I really shouldn't.
我用它来头脑风暴。
I use it for brainstorming.
然后那些最生气的人说，哦，你什么都用它。
And then the people who are getting the most angry, like, oh, use it you use it for everything.
是的。
Yes.
用它来查怎么上厕所。
Use it to find out how to go to the toilet.
现在他们被揭穿了。
And now they're exposed.
对。
Right.
他们完全把决策权交给AI了。
They're they're they're they're outsourcing their decision making to AI.
是的。
Yes.
有趣的是，我不明白，如果你这么确定这东西有多好，为什么还这么焦虑？
And the funny thing is is, I don't know, if you're so sure of how good this is, why are you so anxious?
为什么你对此这么生气？
Why are you so upset about this?
如果你……
Is it if you
挺有意思的。
That's funny.
这有点搞笑。
That's a bit funny.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
那就站在后面
Just stand behind
看着吧。
it then.
如果你觉得这个
If if you think this
足够好到能用来处理你的工作或生意，而且我看到那些，我看到最离谱的
is good enough to run your work or your business, and I see these I see the most insane
这个观点真有意思。
That's such a funny take.
我最喜欢的一个观点是，人们会说，我有ADHD和自闭症，所以你不能因为这个评判我。
My well, the my favorite substat one is people are like, well, have ADHD and autism, and actually, you can't judge me for this.
我就说，那你猜怎么着？我两个都有。
And I'm like, well, guess what I've got both of.
我……我有……我有
I I got I got
我这可是王炸啊，兄弟。
the full fucking deck here, motherfucker.
这两样我全占了。
I I got both of those.
那你们接下来打算怎么办？
What are gonna do now?
他们的论点就是，说这能帮到执行功能。
And what their argument is is, oh, it helps with executive function.
哦，这对这个也有帮助。
Oh, it helps with this.
好吧，确实是这样。
It's like, yeah.
它并没有。
It doesn't.
你以为它有帮助，其实没有。
You're off you're kind of you think it's helping with that.
你根本看不出它是在替你写。
You can't tell it's writing for you.
我觉得看人们在各行各业试图为这事辩护特别好笑，因为还是那句话，如果这东西真的这么好，你那么引以为豪，为什么不大大方方地说，对，我确实觉得这很棒。
And I think it's just watching people trying to justify this in all walks of life is so funny because it again, it's like, if this is such a great thing and you're so proud of it, why aren't you just with your whole chest being like, yeah, I actually think this is great.
还有好笑的是，确实有几个人会大大方方地说，对，我用AI写的，而且写得很烂。
And it's also funny what the there are a few people who are, like, out with their chest being like, yeah, I wrote this with AI and it sucks.
对，其实我去年和今年一直在留意，看看人们有没有创造出什么有趣的流程，用AI来长篇写作。
Yeah, it actually I've been still on the lookout this year and last year for like, okay, what are some interesting workflows that people have created where they're writing at length with AI?
但大多数时候，他们觉得有趣的是他们问了一堆冗长、精心设计的提示词，但写出来的文章很糟糕，还是受限于模型的局限，它们不愿意表明立场，所以会详尽地记录任何讨论或辩论的双方观点。
And most of the time, what they think is interesting is they've asked it a bunch of long, drawn out, well crafted prompts, but the prose is horrible, it's still defined by the limits of the models where they don't really want to take a stance, so they're exhaustively, like, documenting both sides of any discussion or debate.
那并不是你写作时真正想要的。
That's not really what you want in writing.
而且确实没有。
And it doesn't.
这些都是我们听过的老生常谈，很无聊。
It's boring cakes that we've heard before.
本质上就是这样。
Sort of by nature.
而且，他们引入每个观点的方式，我注意到一点。
And on top of that, the way they lead into every point has the this is one thing I've noticed.
不管是什么观点，那种戏剧性的强调都一样，而且总是过度。
That has the same dramatic weight no matter what the point is, and it's always way too much.
对。
Yeah.
总是像‘然后最重要的事情发生了’，结果只是我在七千字里引用了一句话的报告。
It's always like, then then the most important thing happened, and it will be a report I cited in a single sentence in 7,000 words.
就像‘哦，国际清算银行的报告’之类的。
It's like a like, oh, the BIS report from this.
然后就像，好吧。
And it's just like, okay.
你花了三百字就为了引出一个点，然后就没下文了。
Well, you took 300 words to lead to a single thing and then didn't build on it
完全没展开
at all
因为你根本没读过那篇东西。
because you didn't read it.
因为你肯定没读过，因为你肯定不是自己写的。
Because you didn't you definitely didn't read the thing because you definitely didn't write this.
而且因为AI模型没有自己的判断力，不知道什么是最重要的，如果人完全把决策外包出去，那他们也不会做这些判断。
And because the the AI model doesn't have its own personal judgment calls about what is and isn't the most important, and then if the person is completely outsourcing their decision making, then they are also not making those judgment calls.
你知道，对，你的道德价值观不会参与进来，而这是写作的重要部分，尤其是当你在试图论证人们应该相信什么的时候。
You know, yeah, your moral values don't come into it, and that's an important part of writing, especially if you're doing something where you're trying to argue what people should believe in.
对吧？
Right?
如果我看不到任何紧迫感，而你一直在回避，还拿AI来回避，那这有什么意义呢？
If I can't sense any sort of urgency and you're hedging constantly, and you're using an AI to hedge, what's the point of that?
我觉得是这样的，可以理解，这些人不太想跟我多聊。
What I think it is is that I understandably, these people don't wanna talk to me very much
对。
Right.
可能是因为他们想跟他们的AI聊那些事。
Probably due to the things They wanna talk to their AI.
是的。
Yeah.
他们想跟AI聊天。
They wanna talk to AI.
但是那些少数愿意跟我交流的人会说，我拿一个想法去跟它反复讨论，然后我再修改它说的话。
But what they the the few that will engage with me, they'll say, well, I take an idea to it and I go back and forth, then I edit what it says.
我就觉得，那你不过是在复制粘贴它的话而已。
I'm just like, then you're just copy pasting their words.
那跟人类编辑有什么区别呢？
And, like, well, how's the what's the difference between that and a human editor?
答案是，当我跟马特·休斯说话时，他跟我一样有疯狂的想法，我们会一起讨论点子。
The answer is the answer is when I speak to Matt Hughes, he's a human being with the same demented mind as me, and we workshop ideas
我很抱歉，老兄。
I'm so sorry, man.
不。
No.
马特·休斯真是个传奇。
Matt Matt Hughes is a fucking legend.
他是现实中的“离线更好”传奇。
He's the Better Offline legend of reality.
我们会一起讨论事情，有时候他会说，我不确定，老兄。
And he is he and I will workshop things, and sometimes it'd be like, I don't know about that, man.
我不确定那是否有道理。
I don't know if that makes sense.
这是世界上最有价值的东西。
And that is the most valuable thing in the world.
比起被告知想法不好或者我不太明白，这才是世界上最好的反馈。
That is more being told bad idea or I don't really get it is the best feedback in the world.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
世界上最好的事情就是有人跟你说，我不太明白。
The best thing in the world is just someone being like, I don't know.
你有时候会自嘲，克洛伊，比如说，哦，我不是专家。
You derisively talk about yourself sometimes, Chloe, say, like, oh, I'm not an expert.
实际上，能把事情解释给外行人听，比解释给专家听更有用。
Actually, being able to explain something to someone who is a layman is actually way more useful than to an expert.
因为反过来
Because other way
谢谢。
Thank you.
我是个英雄。
I am a hero.
你才是。
You are.
对。
Yeah.
谢谢。
Thank you.
但真的就是这样。
But it but it's it really is it.
哦，还有，我觉得一段关系中，如果有人能够并且愿意批评另一个人的作品，这其实是最尊重人的关系之一，因为这是把创作者、作者、思想家，不管是谁，都托付给了对方，这本质上就是相信那个人能够承受批评，并且能让自己的作品变得更好。
Oh, also, I think I think a relationship where somebody is able and willing to critique someone else's work is actually one of the most respectful relationships because it is entrusting the the creator, the writer, the thinker, whatever, with it it is inherently trusting that that person can handle the criticism and can better their work.
对我来说，当有人看着我说，天哪，太棒了，这种感觉好多了。
And it is to me, it's it feels so much better when somebody looks at me and is like, hell, yeah.
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
你做的这个，真的不够好。
What you did is, like, it's really not good enough.
对。
Yeah.
因为我会觉得，谢天谢地。
Because I'm like, thank fucking god.
我会去改。
I I'll fix it.
我想让它变得更好。
I wanna get I wanna make it better.
反过来，当你让他们惊艳时，你是真的让他们惊艳了。
And then the converse of that is when you impress them, you've actually impressed them.
当他们说，哇，真厉害。
When they're like, damn, there's bangs.
这是真诚的。
It's honest.
经营企业却不考虑播客？
Run a business and not thinking about podcasting?
再想想吧。
Think again.
现在听播客的美国人比用Spotify和Pandora听广告支持的音乐流媒体的人还多。
More Americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.
作为排名第一的播客平台，iHeart的规模是紧随其后的两家总和的两倍。
And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.
所以无论你的客户听什么，他们都会听到你的信息。
So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message.
而且，只有iHeart能把你的信息扩展到广播电台的听众。
Plus, only iHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio.
觉得播客能帮到你的生意？
Think podcasting can help your business?
想想iHeart吧。
Think iHeart.
流媒体、广播和播客。
Streaming, radio, and podcasting.
欢迎访问 iheartadvertising.com，让我们为您展示。
Let us show you at iheartadvertising.com.
网址是 iheartadvertising.com。
That's iheartadvertising.com.
嘿。
Hey.
我是 Hayes Davenport。
This is Hayes Davenport.
还有 Sean Clements。
And Sean Clements.
我们主持播客《好莱坞手册》。
We host the podcast Hollywood Handbook.
每一集，我们都试图帮助嘉宾提升事业，主要方式是关注他们如何帮助我们提升事业。
Every episode, we're trying to help our guests improve their careers by mainly focusing on how they can help us improve our careers.
这个节目出了名的容易上手，你随便点开我们650集里的任何一集都能看懂在讲什么。
The show is famously super accessible, you can easily jump into any of our 650 episodes and understand what's going
推荐几集我们最近和本·斯蒂勒的节目。
recommend some of our recent episodes with Ben Stiller.
电影的定义其实也已经有点变了。
The definition of what is a movie has kinda changed anyway too.
对吧？
Right?
你觉得现在电影算什么？
What do you think it is now?
就是影像和说出来的话，用某种技术捕捉下来。
It's images and words being spoken, captured by some sort of technology.
丹尼·麦克布莱德。
Danny McBride.
他很喜欢波霸奶茶。
He loves boba.
哦，那太棒了。
Oh, that's fantastic.
而且你是自己做的。
And you make it on you make your own.
真不错。
That's great.
对。
Mhmm.
我叫他芋头·里德。
I call him Taro Reed.
这名字不错。
It's a good name.
它们都以《美国派》的演员命名。
They're all named after cast members of American Pie.
是的。
Yeah.
哦，明白了。
Oh, gotcha.
我叫他，我不。
I call I don't.
我从来没查过她是否出演过，但我叫他利奇·索比斯基。
I never looked up if she was in this, but I call him Lichie Sobieski.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得她没出演《美国派》，
I don't think she was in American Pie,
但我
but I
还没查过。
still haven't looked it up.
没查过。
Haven't looked it up.
对。
Yeah.
她那时候挺出名的，对。
She was prominent around Yeah.
跟玛丽·斯汀伯根差不多。
The same Then Mary Steenburgen.
你们为什么说话
Why are you guys talking
像在担心我似的。
to me like worried.
为什么
Why
你是那部电影里的？
are you the movie?
所以对我这么冷淡，你
So down to me that you
你以为我看不懂你那点小把戏。
think I don't understand your little play play game.
我只是真的
I just really
我明白了。
I get it.
想帮你在这里取得成功。
Am trying to set you up for success here.
在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts或任何你收听播客的地方收听《好莱坞手册》。
Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
我是尼克·图托罗。
I'm Nick Tutoro.
你可能从《纽约重案组》、《最长的一码》或斯派克·李的《黑色党徒》中认识我。
You probably know me from NYPD Blue, The Longest Yard, or Spike Lee's BlacKkKlansman.
但我也来自皇后区，
But I'm also from Queens,
也就是说我懂披萨。
which means I know pizza.
而且，在
And on
我的新播客《与尼克·图托罗一起送快乐》里，我会从王子街披萨店送披萨给一位新嘉宾。
my new podcast, Delivering Happiness with Nick Tutoro, I deliver pizza from Prince Street Pizza to a new guest.
我们现在还送披萨了？
We deliver pizza now?
然后我们坐下来好好聊聊。
Then we sit down for a real conversation.
我和很多人分享过披萨，从塞斯·罗林斯到
I've shared a slice with everyone from Seth Rollins
你在干什么
What are you
拿着我的腰带？
doing with my belt?
给亚历克斯·罗德里格斯的。
To Alex Rodriguez.
跟大家说一声，我们现在正在跟一位史上最伟大的运动员聊。
Just to let you people know we're talking to one of the GOATs here.
给比尔·伯克的。
To Bill Burke.
我觉得我从没见过有人跟我的疯狂程度一模一样。
I don't think I've ever met somebody so exactly out of their mind as I am.
现在我们还有更多很棒的嘉宾要来，包括伟大的约翰·图托罗。
And now we even have more great guests coming up, including the great John Tutoro.
这叫幸福。
It's called happiness.
传递幸福。
Delivering happiness.
马里亚诺·里维拉。
Mariano Rivera.
挖出来吧，兄弟。
Dig it up, brother.
还有很多很多。
And many, many more.
那个那个
The the
我队。
I team.
我是说，对于有抱负的演员，以及任何希望脱颖而出的人来说。
The I'm to I'm of aspiring actors part and really anybody hoping to stand out.
你被聘用不是为了填补时间和空间，而是为了用你自己来填满空间。你肚子里有货，就跟着感觉走。
You're not hired just to fill time into space you're hired to fill the space with you you have something in your guts you go with it.
肖恩·约翰逊回忆了她意识到现在的丈夫安德鲁就是那个对的人的那一刻。
And Shawn Johnson recalled the moment she realized her now husband Andrew was the one.
他就是那么毫不掩饰地做自己，对好莱坞一无所知。
He was just so unapologetically himself and knew nothing of Hollywood.
他以前从没独自坐过飞机。
He hadn't been on a plane before without his family.
那太纯粹了。
It was so pure.
请收听Joy 101
Listen to Joy one zero one
在iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts或任何你收听播客的平台，与Hodakotbi一起。
with Hodakotbi on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
还有一件事，这些搞AI的人，你见过他们在网上提品味吗？
And the other thing that these AI people, they you ever see them mention taste online?
没有。
No.
这些AI人士就像，哦，我们得把品味带进来。他们用品味的方式就像《星际迷航：下一代》里的佛瑞吉人一样。
These these AI folks are like, oh, we can't we gotta bring taste into And the way they use taste is like how, like, the Ferengi from Star Trek The Next Generation Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
聊聊，怎么说呢，什么都聊。
Talk about, I don't know, everything.
或者就像网上那些人一样。
Or just like guys online
我得提醒你一下，我不懂那个梗。
I'll like retro inform you I do not understand that reference.
别担心。
Don't worry.
别担心。
Don't worry.
那个在好莱坞工作的女孩就说，不。
The one girl the girl who works in Hollywood is like, no.
没事。
It's fine.
这个比喻其实很简单。
It's a really simple comparison.
就是网上那些把女人称为“雌性”的男人。
It's guys online who refer to women as females.
就是这回事。
It's this thing.
雌性。
Females.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
他们需要品味，我们的模特需要品味。
They we need taste in our models.
他们想说的是辨别力，但他们不够聪明，没意识到这一点。
What they mean is discernment, but they're not smart enough to actually realize that.
没错。
Right.
而且辨别力是没法训练的。
And you can't train discernment.
辨别力跟语境、文化还有各种其他因素都有关。
Discernment is contextual and cultural and all these other things.
当你跟搞AI的人这么说的时候，他们就会觉得你在装高人一等。
And when you say this to AI people, they're like, you're being superior.
你就是在装高人一等，去评判那些你其实并不真正了解的人。
You're just being superior to people you don't really understand.
然后就像
And it's like
大家也都同意。
People agree.
他们就是在装高人一等。
They're being superior.
对。
Yeah.
而且，给我看看你写的一些真正好的东西。
And also, show me some stuff that you've written that actually is good.
那这个可以。
So this okay.
所以这其实要回到你最开始问我的问题，我当时回答的是关于脱口秀，而不是更广泛的好莱坞。
So this actually will go back to your your very initial question to me was about I I I sort of answered about stand up and not Hollywood more broadly.
但从创作角度来看好莱坞，它正在掏空后期制作这些环节。
But Hollywood from a creative standpoint, so it's hollowing out post production stuff.
但，实际上，在……之前
But And just actually, before
我忘了，那是掏空 ChatGPT 之类的东西，还是另一种 AI？
I forget, is that stuff it's hollowing out chat GPT and stuff like that, or is that another kind of AI?
我不知道。
I don't know.
那是
That is
不是那种东西。
not That's kind of thing.
而且就是这样，因为所有的AI都被抱怨。
And that's the thing, like because all the AI gets complained.
总之，我打断了你的问题。
Anyway, I talked over your question.
抱歉。
I apologize.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
你挺好的。
You're good.
当我想到好莱坞真正的创意产出时，因为那是人们关心的，对吧？
The when I think about the, like, the actual creative output within Hollywood because that's what people right?
人们会说，我们要用AI拍一整部电影。
People are like, we're gonna make a whole movie with AI.
我们要做一整个什么东西。
We're gonna make a whole whatever.
你就能做到，我是说，这是那个著名的视频，是什么来着，汤姆·克鲁斯。
We're you're gonna be able to make it's mean, this is the famous video of, what was it, Tom Cruise
哦，那个红坑，其实最后是绿幕，还有一堆非AI的东西。
and Oh, the red pit, which actually ended up being green screen and, like, a bunch of, like, non AI stuff.
对。
Yeah.
太棒了。
Hell yeah.
但那种认为我们会做出完全由AI生成、或者绝大部分内容都来自AI的作品，这种想法从根本上来说是很糟糕的。
But the idea that we will make things that people can watch that are fully purely AI or that are some vast, vast, vast majority AI is fundamentally going to suck.
你说得对，对吧？
It is what right?
这就是你的观点。
That's what you're saying.
或者说，回到你刚才说的点，我同意这种情况确实会发生。
And or or it's going back to what you're saying, and I agree that, like, that will happen.
我觉得这事儿迟早会发生的。
I do think that that will happen.
我认为它会从现有的制片厂和工会创作模式之外出现。
I think it will happen from outside of the current studio studios and guild creative guild model.
我觉得吧
I think
就是，你知道的，可能某个仓库里的人就会搞出一个AI模型来产出内容，他们说不定已经在这么做了。
that, you know, somebody in some warehouse will create an AI model that will be putting out they they maybe already are.
他们刚发布了一个，看起来跟狗屎一样。
They just put out one, and it looks like a dog shit.
哦，那不就是
Oh, isn't that all
生成式AI电影吗？
generative AI film?
我边聊边查一下这个。
I'm gonna look this up while we're talking.
但它会变得好的。
But it will get good.
对吧？
Right?
比如，会有人能做到，你知道，把你整个短视频信息流都填满那种看起来像AI风格的竖屏内容，看起来还挺像好莱坞的。
Like, there will be people who are able to, you know, fill your entire your entire short form feed can be filled with stuff that looks kind of AI verticals that look kind of like Hollywood.
对吧？
Right?
而且它会很烂。
And it is going to be crap.
不管它现在以什么程度存在，它就是这样。
It whatever to whatever degree it already exists, it is.
而这里缺少的正是你刚才说的。
And what is lacking there is it's exactly what you were saying.
就是人们缺乏那种辨别力，能够站出来说，这不够有趣，不值得我把它当作娱乐。
It is the discernment for people to say to stand up and say, this is not interesting enough for me to count as my entertainment.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得现在人们很少有这样的反驳了。
And I think that people have less of that pushback now.
我觉得他们现在更不愿意那样反驳了。
I think they have less willingness to push back like that now.
而且我觉得，现在人们比以往任何时候都更不愿意运用辨别力去反驳。
And I think I I think that people have less of that willingness to push back against to to employ discernment now than ever.
而且我实际上把这归咎于无尽滚动的信息流。
And I actually lay the blame of that at the feet of the endless scroll feet.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
不是归咎于人工智能。
Not at the feet of AI.
就像，我认为人工智能出现时是一种非常强大的工具。
Like, I think that AI sort of came in and was this incredibly powerful tool.
但因为我们对娱乐的标准已经被无尽滚动的信息流给摧毁了，现在这个非常强大的工具可以进来生产垃圾内容，而我们不会去
But because our standards for entertainment have already kind of been nuked by the endless scroll feed, now this incredibly powerful tool can come in and produce stuff that's shit, and we're not gonna
抵制它。
push back into that.
对此有争议的看法是，我认为流媒体是个坏主意。
Controversial perspective on that is I think streaming media is a bad idea.
对。
Mhmm.
我觉得流媒体，我觉得奈飞的流媒体是个很糟糕的主意，因为它既像你说的那样，克洛伊，而且整体上让人觉得内容无限多。
I think streaming media, I think Netflix streaming media is a terrible idea because it's both what you're saying, Chloe, and just the overall sense that there is unlimited content.
所以那种感觉就是，你可以尽可能多地做，反正没关系。
So the sense that you could just build as much of it as possible, and it'll be fine.
我得说，我认为它不会完全取代，因为它太贵了。
I will say I don't think it's gonna take over just because it's too expensive.
而且，要真正做出一个超过几分钟、逻辑清晰的视频真的很难。
It's also it it's so hard to actually make a cogent video of longer than a few minutes.
那你不觉得它一年内就会足够好吗？
Do and do you not think that it will get good enough in a year?
问题在于，电影涉及很多心理层面的东西，他们真的很难做到。
The problem is is that there's a bunch of psychological things with movies that they'll have trouble really
完全同意。
Totally.
完全同意。
Totally.
但我觉得，在亚洲那边，我忘了具体是哪里，出了很多这种短剧，就是那种很紧凑的、短篇的苦情剧，专门放给你看的。
I But don't there there is I think over in Asia, I forget where they're they've got a lot of these ones which are coming out, which are just like tight, like short melodramas that are watched for you.
嗯，是的。
I mean, yes.
对。
Yeah.
但我……
But I've
我一直在我的信息流里看到这些，感觉它们火起来不是因为拍得好，而是因为太离谱了。
been seeing these on my feed where also it feels like they catch on not because they're good, but because it's absurd.
比如有一个，讲一个黑人女孩是美人鱼，她的同学发现了，然后就种族歧视她。
Like, there's this one with this black girl was a mermaid, and her classmates found out and they're racist.
所以他们一直在说一些侮辱性的话。
So they're just saying slurs.
我去看了评论区，想看看情况，你知道的，我大概能感觉到它是不是火了。
And I looked in the comments to see, okay, and, you know, I get a sense of, is this viral?
它有没有人点赞？
Is this getting are people liking it?
基本上就是靠互动量来火的。
And it's mainly just like sort of engagement based.
你懂吧？
You know?
对。
Right.
我也看到不少证据表明，这些东西其实是机器人刷的，就是花钱买流量。
I've also seen a fair amount of evidence that those things are bot like, they're paying to Yeah.
花钱去推高算法推荐。
Paying to push them into the algorithm.
因为去年《纽约时报》有过一篇报道，讲一个非常成功的AI影视公司，专门用AI拍电影，结果浏览量突然莫名其妙地暴跌。
Because there was a big thing, New York Times, I think, last year about, like, a really successful AI house that's making AI films, and the views just randomly crashed.
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，有一家叫Higgs Field AI的公司，他们做的那些网红营销特别不靠谱。
And I mean, I would it there's this company called Higgs Field AI that's doing really dodgy influencer stuff.
他们刚买了——那些正在听的听众们，你们12个人应该知道我在说什么。
They just bought for those of you listening, the 12 of you will know what I mean.
有个叫Marcus the Worm的东西，就是一个穿着VR设备的人，在那儿喊‘罗伯特’。
There's this thing called Marcus the Worm, which is a guy in a VR VR environment going, Robert.
总之，其中一个Marcus账号卖给了Higgs Field AI，然后内容就全是AI垃圾。
Anyway, one of the one of the Marcus accounts sold to Higgs Field AI, and it's just AI dog shit.
哦，那家伙是搞AI的？
Oh, that guy's an AI guy?
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
嗯，不是。
Well, no.
他们只是把它卖给了一个AI垃圾内容账号。
They just sold it to an AI slop account.
而且很难超越他们的成功，就像实际上，是的。
And it's really hard to pass the success of them, and like how actually Yes.
因为正如你所说，Eddie，人们嘲笑他们是因为他们太真实了，有些真的很糟糕。
Because to your point, Eddie, it's like people are laughing at them because they're real like, some of them are so bad.
我觉得会出现一种分化，一边是重视那些知道是人做的东西的人，另一边是完全愿意接受屏幕上只是移动画面的人。
I I think that there is going to be a sort of I think that there's gonna be a split between people who put a premium on something that they know was made by people, and people who are completely willing to accept just moving picture on my screen.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
而且我觉得，嗯，其实我们在Substack上已经看到一些了，但人们强烈抵制这个。
And I think the well, we're already kind of seeing it more with the substack stuff, but people are violently rejecting this.
我觉得AI人士希望的是，人们已经被打击得疲惫不堪。
And I think what the AI people hope happens is that people are just so beaten down.
但我感觉恰恰相反。
I get the opposite feeling.
人们越来越愤怒。
People are getting more and more angry.
对。
Yeah.
人们对此越来越激进。
People are getting more aggressive about it.
但是，我是说，你看到OpenAI网红日那件事了吗？
People are but I mean, there's this whole thing of the did you see the OpenAI influencer day?
嗯嗯。
Mm-mm.
OpenAI 花钱请了一堆网红去纽约上州参加他们的活动，然后，我也不知道，到处走走。
OpenAI paid for a bunch of influencers to go to like an OpenAI thing in Upstate New York and like, I don't know, walk around
Sheen 也试过这样，把他们带到工厂里，然后他们就像……
being Sheen tried to do this where they brought them all to the factory and they like
对，Sheen 把他们飞过去，然后他们就说，看看这个。
That was, yeah, when Sheen flew them out and they're like, this look.
这可不是什么数据标注的连帽衫。
This isn't a sweatshirt for data conditioning.
对。
Yeah.
就像，就像，哦，对。
Like like, it's like the oh, yeah.
我们不会让他们自杀的。
We don't they can't kill themselves.
我们有网子可以接住他们。
We have nets to catch them.
对。
Yeah.
不。
No.
但这个，就像是
But this, it was just like
我们这个数据中心不用水。
We don't use any water at this data center.
来
Come and
看看。
check it out.
但我查了一下，主要是那些已经做Claude或OpenAI内容的有影响力的人。
I but I looked into it, and it was mostly influencers who only already did Claude stuff or, like, OpenAI stuff.
但那些偶尔没接触过的，他们得发视频，比如，一个在2021年说过脏话的人。
So but the occasional ones that didn't, they had to post videos from, like like, a person that said a slur in 2021.
他们就说，我很抱歉用了ChatGPT。
They were like, I'm very sorry for using chat GPT.
我发誓。
I swear to god.
我是说，你看到Hank Green那件事了吗？
I mean, the whole did you see the Hank Green thing?
哦，对。
Oh, yeah.
我看到了。
I did.
哦，对。
Oh, yeah.
所以有个科学传播者。
So there's this science communicator.
经历了一番挣扎。
Little struggle session.
肯定有人会因为这事给我发邮件，不过我挺开心的。
There's some people who are gonna email me about this, I'm gonna be happy.
他是个科普博主。
He's a science communicator.
得说清楚，他很受大家喜爱。
Just to be clear, he's beloved.
他在跨性别议题上有很多错误观点，对睾酮和自闭症的理解也不对。而且他还完全被一个有效利他主义机构 Control AI 给收买了，成了他们的赞助商。
He's got a lot of things wrong about tran he's got things wrong about testosterone and autism, like I've and also, he has fallen hook, line, and sinker and been sponsored by Control AI, an effective altruist institute.
太离谱了。
Oh, sick.
总之，在他某个视频里，他突然没头没脑地来了一句：好吧，意思是这样。
Anyway, during one of his videos, he goes he just apropos of nothing just goes, well, means this.
还感谢大家的反对意见。
And thank you for the pushback.
然后他就说，哦，对。
And he's like, oh, yeah.
我当时是拿它来做研究的。
I was using it for research.
而且他到现在还是坚持说，对，我当时就是拿它来做研究的。
And he still, to this day, is like, yeah, I was losing it using it for research.
我看了那个脚本。
I looked at the script.
脚本里我没那么说。
I didn't say that in the script.
关键是，除了AI模型，没人会说“感谢你的指正”这种话。
And it's just like, no one says I appreciate the pushback other than an AI model.
普通人聊天的时候不会这么说。
Regular people don't say that in the flow of conversation.
但他基本上就是，我要把这事儿给压下去。
But he is basically like, I'm gonna shut down this.
我打算暂停一段时间不创作了。
I'm gonna stop producing for a while.
我太依赖AI了。
I've relied too much on AI.
这真的很奇怪，因为我觉得这种情况不会改变。
And it's like, it's so bizarre because that I don't think this is changing.
我不认为使用AI会变得更加被允许。
I don't think it's gonna become more permissible to use AI.
现在AI无处不在，不管你喜不喜欢，但这并不意味着人们能容忍。
AI is everywhere now, whether you like it or not, but that doesn't mean people are tolerant.
人们变得越来越愤怒。
People are getting, like, infrauded.
越来越激进。
Aggressive.
我觉得AI行业没有意识到人们有多生气。
Like, they're I don't think the AI industry realizes how angry people are.
而且说清楚，我不是在鼓励愤怒或暴力之类的。
And to be clear, I'm not encouraging anger or violence or anything like that.
但我不需要这么做。
But I don't have to.
我觉得人们已经很生气了。
I think people are already angry.
我几个月前看到一个视频，一个数据中心被取消，有个人跑出来喊‘取消了’，然后大家都在欢呼。
I saw a video from a few months ago of a data center getting canceled, and a guy running outside and going like, it's canceled, and everyone cheering.
当OpenAI最终倒闭时，那场面就像《绝地归来》结尾的科洛桑，特别是重制版。
When OpenAI finally dies, it's gonna be like Coruscant and the end of Return of the Jedi and the remake specifically.
我希望又是一个我听不懂的梗。
I hope another reference I don't get.
我希望是……
I hope Did
那是《绝地归来》吗？
that say Return of the Jedi?
那是哪一部？
Which one is that one?
我希望是耶稣基督。
I hope Jesus Christ.
抱歉。
I'm sorry.
各位，所有那些要来我节目的宅男粉丝们，都会说，我们要退票。
Everybody man, all of all of your all of your nerd fans who are gonna come to my show are like, we're we're canceling those tickets.
我很喜欢，走到你面前说
And I love come up to
你。
you.
告诉我，如果你买票，我就送你一年我的付费订阅。
Tell me the what what I will comp you a year's subscription to my premium newsletter if you buy a ticket.
我是认真的。
I mean it.
哦，哇。
Oh, wow.
这可是个大优惠。
That's a that's a big offer.
有一次，我不想跟朋友聊天，就让他给我讲《黑客帝国》的剧情。
One one time I when I didn't wanna have a conversation with a friend, I asked him to explain the plot of The Matrix to me.
天哪，然后
Boy, and
他就能一直讲，然后
he could just And then and
我们，哦，天哪。
we oh, god.
我们耗了
We burned
几个小时。
a couple hours.
然后我们就会聊到，比如我会说，那下一部里发生了什么？
And then we would get to, like I would be like, and what happened in the next one?
我当时正经历分手，还得跟那个讨厌鬼待在一起。
I was going through a breakup, I had to hang out with this wretch.
我真的不想聊分手的事，我就问，那崔妮蒂做了什么？
And I did I, like, really didn't wanna talk about my breakup, and I was like, what oh, what does Trinity do?
总之，这就像是一个自由意志主义的陷阱。
Anyway It's a lurk like a libertarian mousetrap.
什么是
What's the
拱门攻击？
arch attack?
对。
Yeah.
然后我就可以说，欧文，那象征着什么？
And I could be like, Owen, what does that symbolize?
他还以为我特别感兴趣呢。
And he thought I was so interested.
锡安是什么？
What's Zion?
哦，哇。
Oh, wow.
哦，他们就像……
Oh, they're like
哦，有意思。
Oh, interesting.
而你只是在心里想：对。
And you're just inside your head just going Yeah.
但问题是
But the thing is
你永远不可能有一个
you could never have a
和Nehai可没法这样聊天。
conversation like that with Nehai.
嗯，其实你可能会得到一个无聊的
Well, actually, you could get a boring
解释正在形成中。
explanation in the making.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
但他不会在那里。
But he won't be there.
他会，是的。
He would yeah.
我可以直接走开。
I could just walk away.
嗯，现在，我我语音模式，你大概可以启动那个。
Well, now, I I the voice mode, you could probably get that going.
对吧？
Right?
你可以直接跟它对话。
You could have the conversation with it.
Chloe，他们现在搞了个语音模式，大家都去买小麦克风，几乎都不怎么打字了。
Chloe, they got they got this thing now where they got voice mode for these and they're all buying little microphones, like, barely even type anymore.
你知道吗，那里面味道也很怪，但他们就坐在那儿对着电脑说。
You know it smelled crazy in there also, but they're just sitting there being like, computer.
电脑。
Computer.
不。
No.
现在把代码加上。
Add the code now.
不。
No.
把那行代码删掉。
Delete that code.
哦，我不喜欢这个，电脑。
Oh, I don't like it, computer.
而且这些家伙从来不分享他们的代码。
And these motherfuckers never share their code.
他们从来不分享他们正在开发的软件。
They never share the software they're building.
他们每天花十五个小时搞AI，所以你知道那肯定很烂。
They're just working on AI for fifteen hours a day, so you know it's shit.
你知道他们根本不需要
You know they don't need any of
那些。
that.
你懂吧？
You know?
跟我说说，等等。
Tell me Wait.
等等。
Wait.
好的。
Okay.
我有个朋友，他在科技和AI领域工作。
I've just had a friend who works he works in in tech and AI.
他说，他的目标就是给自己建一个AI助手，这样每天早上，AI助手就能直接告诉他收件箱里有哪些邮件，然后他就可以告诉助手……嗯。
And he was like, my goal is to build an AI agent for myself so that every single morning, my AI agent can just tell me what emails are in my inbox, and I can tell my agent Mhmm.
你知道，该回复谁、怎么回复，这样他就再也不用自己处理收件箱了。
You know, what to respond to who and that I never have to be in my inbox.
他只需要跟AI助手对话就行。
I can just talk to my AI agent.
对。
Right.
他这么说的时候，我觉得，说实话，那听起来太棒了。
And when he says that, I'm like, honestly, that sounds amazing.
我我做不到。
I I can't.
对不起。
I'm sorry.
邮件没那么难吧。
Emails are not that hard.
我我，是的。
I I yes.
我同意。
I agree.
而且，我们都要处理邮件。
And like, we all deal with emails.
但我觉得，那挺难的。
But I'm like, it's hard.
这种幻想真的很有吸引力。
It's like, that fantasy is very seductive.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
就是那种，我只要说一声，就能告诉我收件箱里有什么。
The idea that I can just be like, and tell me what's in my inbox.
是的。
Yeah.
然后告诉她，我可以安排二十四号，但得推迟半小时。
And tell her, I'll I can do the twenty fourth, and but we need to push it by a half an hour.
然后跟他说，对。
And tell him Yeah.
对吧？
That right?
这真的非常非常诱人。
Like, that is very it's very, very tempting.
我明白。
I see that.
但我的想法是，如果我没读过一封邮件，我就不想回复它。
But my thing is, like, I feel like if I don't read an email, I don't want to respond to it.
我不想只是草草了事。
Like, I don't wanna just be, like, dashing stuff off.
因为如果你没读合同就签了，你仍然要受它约束，我对邮件也是这种感觉。
Because also, if you don't read a contract and you sign it, you're still bound by it, and that's how I feel with my emails.
因为
For
当然。
For sure.
如果我的AI代理决定叫错别人的名字，或者骂他们，或者给他们发个附件，比如我过去七年的报税单，我不知道会发生什么。
If my AI agent decides to call someone the wrong name or swear at them or send them an attachment, this is just my last seven years tax returns, like, don't know I don't know what's happening.
而且也许它会管用。
And maybe it will work.
那如果他们跟你说，AI不会犯那些错误呢？
And what if they would say that the AI is not gonna make those mistakes?
我不会相信他们。
I wouldn't believe them.
但问题是，你到底能省多少时间？
The fuck but the other thing is, like, how much time are you saving?
说真的，你能省多少时间？抱歉。
How much time are you realistically I'm sorry.
你的收件箱是不是有那么多，我从来没见过的人？
Is is your inbox so person I've never met.
你的收件箱真的有那么大吗？
Is your inbox so huge?
但这也是关键。
But this is the thing as well.
这是AI更宏大的承诺。
It's the grander promise of AI.
就像，你得到了什么回报？
It's like, what are you getting back?
这为你节省了什么？
What is this saving you?
而我到处看到的都是人们工作得更辛苦了。
And everywhere I look, it's people are working more.
他们实际上并没有节省时间。
They're not actually saving time.
比如，我生活中的问题并不是来自太多电子邮件。
Like, the thing the problems I have in my life don't come from too many emails.
我也在为自己考虑这件事，我觉得当我坐在电子邮件前阅读时，我吸收信息要清晰得多，是的。
I also think as I'm thinking about this for myself, I'm like, I I I think I ingest information so much more clearly when I am sitting in front of the email Yeah.
阅读它
Reading it
嗯。
Mhmm.
我会思考我的回复，然后打出来，而不是直接跟机器人聊天。
Thinking about my response, typing out my response rather than just sort of having a chat with a robot.
我并没有真正记住那些信息，也没有产生什么新想法，比如，哦，天哪。
I'm not really clinging to that information, and I'm not really having new ideas about, oh, fuck.
我其实应该跟那个人聊聊这件事，问问他们有没有这个，然后他们就会说一堆有的没的。
I should actually talk to that other person about this, and I should ask them if they have it in here, and they blah blah blah blah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得还有一点，就是很多自动化的需求其实是想获得助理式的劳动力。
I think there's also this thing where it's like, a lot of the desires in automation are how can we get assistant labor?
我们怎么能得到某种形式的奴隶劳动、仆役劳动呢？
How can we get some form of slave labor, servant labor?
比如，我们能走什么捷径？
Like, what shortcut can we do?
我觉得很多关于让家更智能或让数字生活更精简的冲动，其实都是在想，能不能把人类做的事情自动化。
And I feel like for a lot of the impulses around, like, making your home a bit more smart or making your digital life a little bit more streamlined, they are like, what if we could get the thing a human does?
但就像你说的，你仍然需要人类。
But like you're saying, you still need the human.
对吧？
Right?
助手之所以有效，是因为助手本身就是一个真人，他们会经历这些事，和你讨论这些事，而不是像在玩传话游戏，只给你概要和总结。
The reason why the assistant works is because the assistant literally is a person, goes through them and talks with you about them and not like you're you're playing a game of telephone with overviews and summaries.
经营企业，却没想过做播客？
Run a business and not thinking about podcasting?
再想想吧。
Think again.
现在听播客的美国人比用Spotify和Pandora听广告支持的流媒体音乐的人还多。
More Americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora.
作为排名第一的播客平台，iHeart的规模是紧随其后的两家总和的两倍。
And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined.
所以不管你的客户听什么，他们都会听到你的信息。
So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message.
而且，只有iHeart能把你的信息扩展到广播电台的听众。
Plus, only iHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio.
觉得播客能帮到你的生意吗？
Think podcasting can help your business?
那就想想iHeart吧。
Think iHeart.
流媒体、广播和播客。
Streaming, radio, and podcasting.
拨打844844开始吧。
Call 844844 to get started.
就是844844
That's 844844
嘿。
Hey.
我是海斯·达文波特。
This is Hayes Davenport.
还有肖恩·克莱门茨。
And Sean Clements.
我们主持播客《好莱坞手册》。
We host the podcast Hollywood Handbook.
每一集，我们都想帮客人提升事业发展，但重点是让他们先帮我们提升事业。
Every episode, we're trying to help our guests improve their careers by mainly focusing on how they can help us improve our careers.
这个节目特别容易上手，随便挑一集我们的650期节目都能听明白在讲什么。
The show is famously super accessible, so you can easily jump into any of our 650 episodes and understand what's going on.
我们推荐几集最近和本·斯蒂勒录的节目。
We recommend some of our recent episodes with Ben Stiller.
电影的定义现在也变了不少。
The definition of what is a movie has kinda changed anyway too.
对吧？
Right?
你觉得现在电影是什么？
What do you think it is now?
就是由某种技术捕捉到的图像和说出来的话。
It's images and words being spoken, captured by some sort of technology.
丹尼·麦克布莱德。
Danny McBride.
他喜欢博卡。
He loves Boca.
哦，那太棒了。
Oh, that's fantastic.
而且你自己做，自己做自己的。
And you make it on you make your own.
那太好了。
That's great.
对。
Mhmm.
我叫他塔罗·里德。
I call him Taro Reed.
这名字不错。
It's a good name.
他们都是以《美国派》的演员名字命名的。
They're all named after cast members of American Pie.
是的。
Yeah.
哦，明白了。
Oh, gotcha.
我没查过她是不是在这部片子里，但我叫他利奇·索比斯基。
I call I don't I never looked up if she was in this, but I call him Litchie Sobieski.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得她没演过《美国派》，但我查过
I don't think she was in American Pie, but I looked
查过了。
it up.
还没查过。
Haven't looked it up.
对。
Yeah.
她当时挺
She was
出名的，对。
prominent around Yeah.
差不多，然后是玛丽·斯汀伯根。
Same Then Mary Steenburgen.
你们为什么在跟我说话？
Why are you guys talking
跟我说话？
to me?
就好像你们懂这部电影似的。
Like, you understand the movie.
所以你们觉得我不懂你们的小把戏。
So down to me that
你们觉得我不懂你们的小把戏。
you think I don't understand your little play play game.
我只是真的
I just really
我明白了。
I get it.
这是在帮你成功呢。
Trying to set you up for success here.
去iHeartRadio应用、Apple Podcasts，或者你平时听播客的地方，收听《好莱坞手册》。
Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
我是尼克·塔图罗。
I'm Nick Taturo.
你可能在《法律与秩序：特殊受害者组》、《最长的一码》，或者斯派克·李的《黑色党徒》里见过我。
You probably know me from NYPD Blue, The Longest Yard, or Spike Lee's BlacKkKlansman.
不过我也是皇后区人，这意味着
But I'm also from Queens, which means
我对披萨可是很懂的。
I know pizza.
而且说到那个——
And on
我的新播客《和Nick Taturo一起传递快乐》，内容是我从王子街披萨店给新嘉宾送披萨。
my new podcast, Delivering Happiness with Nick Taturo, I deliver pizza from Prince Street Pizza to a new guest.
你现在还去送披萨啊？
Are you delivering pizzas now?
然后我们坐下来好好聊聊。
Then we sit down for a real conversation.
我和很多人一起分享过披萨，从塞斯·罗林斯——你拿着腰带干什么？
I've shared a slice with everyone from Seth Rollins What are you doing with belt?
到亚历克斯·罗德里格斯。
To Alex Rodriguez.
顺便告诉你们，我们正在和一位传奇人物对话。
Just to let you people know we're talking to one of the goats here.
还有比尔·伯克。
To Bill Burke.
我觉得我从来没遇到过和我一样疯的人。
I don't think I've ever met somebody so exactly out of their mind as I am.
现在还有更多大牌嘉宾要来，包括伟大的约翰·特托罗。
And now we even have more great guests coming up, including the great John Tutoro.
这就是所谓的幸福。
It's called happiness.
传递幸福。
Delivering happiness.
马里亚诺·里维拉。
Mariano Rivera.
太喜欢了。
Dig it.
抱歉了，兄弟。
I'm sorry, brother.
还有好多好多嘉宾。
And many, many more.
打开免费的iHeartRadio应用。
Open your free iHeartRadio app.
搜索《传递幸福》节目，和尼克·图托罗一起收听。
Search delivering happiness with Nick Tutoro and listen I
我觉得……我……这个……
thing I I it.
这个播客让我们通过和有趣的人进行有意义的对话，一起发现那些事情。
This podcast lets us uncover those things together through meaningful conversations with fascinating people.
就像我的朋友亨利·温克勒给那些想当演员的人，以及任何想脱颖而出的人的建议。
Like when my friend Henry Winkler offered advice to aspiring actors and really anybody hoping to stand out.
你被雇佣不是为了填补时间和空间。
You're not hired just to fill time and space.
你被雇佣是为了用你自己来填满那个空间。
You're hired to fill the space with you.
你内心有某种东西。
You have something in your guts.
你跟着它走。
You go with it.
还有肖恩·约翰逊回忆起她意识到现在的丈夫安德鲁就是那个对的人的时刻。
And Shawn Johnson recalled the moment she realized her now husband Andrew was the one.
他就是那么毫不掩饰地做自己，对好莱坞一无所知。
He was just so unapologetically himself and knew nothing of Hollywood.
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