第219集 - Ted Caya谈Take

现在是广告时间。

It's ad break time.

我很荣幸地宣布，《超越单人纸牌》播客由中密歇根大学游戏与模拟学习中心赞助播出。

I'm proud to announce the Beyond Solitaire podcast is sponsored by Central Michigan University's Center for Learning through games and simulations.

目前，我们正筹备一个有趣的新项目。

Right now, have a fun new project on the way.

《破碎之镜》是桌游《500岁吸血鬼》的可下载扩展包，将游戏改造成适合1-2玩家的书信体体验。

The Cracked Mirror, a downloadable expansion for 500 year old vampire, turns the game into an epistolary experience for one to two players.

该扩展包将于2026年免费发布，但现在只需小额捐赠即可提前获取。

The expansion will be available for free in 2026, but you can get it now for a small donation.

请相信，每笔捐赠都能帮助CLGS继续他们在学术领域开发同行评审游戏的使命。

And trust me, every donation helps CLGS as they continue their mission of producing peer reviewed games in the academic space.

这是目前无人涉足的开创性工作。

It is pioneering work that no one else is doing yet.

另外，若想支持本播客的持续运营，欢迎在patreon.com/beyondsolitaire页面赞助我。

Also, if you wanna help me keep the lights on over here on the podcast, you can support me at patreon.com/beyondsolitaire.

现在，让我们继续节目吧。

For now though, let's get on with the show.

嘿，玩家们。

Hey, gamers.

我是《超越纸牌》的莉兹·戴维森。

This is Liz Davidson beyond solitaire.

本周的播客中，我有一位非常特别的嘉宾。

And this week in the pod, I have a very special guest.

这位是泰德·卡亚。

This is Ted Kaya.

他是Leader公司的运营执行总监。

He is the executive director of operations at Leader.

但今天我们不谈他如何为我们维持运营，而是要聊聊他的新游戏，因为他是我们即将推出的游戏《Take》的设计师。

But today, instead of talking about how he keeps the lights on for us, we're gonna talk about his new game because he's the designer of our upcoming game, Take.

你今天怎么样，泰德？

How are you doing today, Ted?

很好。

Good.

你呢，丽兹？

How are you, Liz?

我还不错。

I'm I'm doing alright.

我喜欢这种在工作但实际又不在工作的状态。

I like working and not actually being at work.

那么对于好奇或有点跟不上节奏的听众来说，《夺取》到底是什么？

So for people who are curious or have been falling a little bit, what exactly is Take?

是的。

Yeah.

《夺取》是一款风险管理与谈判游戏，玩家需要策划并执行一系列抢劫行动，目标是在游戏结束时拥有最多金钱，同时避免被警方抓获。

So Take is a risk management and negotiation game where players will be planning and executing a series of heists to try and have the most money by the end of the game, without getting caught by the police.

听起来不错。

Sounds good.

你对'不'有什么个人经历吗？

What is your personal experience with no.

我开玩笑的。

I'm kidding.

不过说真的，你是怎么对这个话题产生兴趣的？

So actually, though, how did you get into this topic?

我是说，这是你的第一款游戏。

I mean, is your first game.

你在这上面投入了很长时间。

You worked on it for a long time.

那么你是什么时候开始开发它的？是什么驱动你去做这件事？

So when did you start working on it and like what drove you?

是的。

Yeah.

对我来说，劫案题材是我发现游戏市场上最大的空白。

So for me, heist were kind of the biggest gap in what I could find a game for.

我通常会先购买并体验游戏主题，选择那些我已经感兴趣的内容，试图找到能模拟这种体验的游戏。

I kind of purchase and play games theme first and kind of, you know, take things that I'm already interested in, try and find a game that is gonna emulate that.

而抢劫题材在当时是个巨大的空白，至少在我对它们的理解或期望呈现方式上是如此。

And heist were this kind of big gap, at least in the way that I thought about them or wanted them to be portrayed.

我曾尝试过《Burrow Brothers》系列游戏，这是一款有趣的合作游戏，但在建筑中潜行和窥探角落并不是这个类型最吸引我的部分。

You know, I had tried the Burrow Brothers series of games, which are a kind of fun co op game, but the kind of sneaking around the building and peeking around corners wasn't the part that really excited me about the genre.

真正吸引我的是策划过程。

It was kind of the planning.

是那些粉笔板场景。

It was the chalkboard scenes.

就像《GTA V》中在公告板上拼凑计划，思考不同路线之类的环节。

It was the bulletin board in GTA V kind of putting together the plan, thinking about the different routes and stuff.

我觉得桌游很适合重现这类体验，但当时市面上并没有这样的作品。

And I felt like board games were well suited to replicate that kind of thing, but I didn't feel like I had any kind of thing.

如果我能直接买到这样的游戏，就不会自己动手制作了。

If I could have just bought this game, I wouldn't have made it.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

好的。

Okay.

这完全是出于一种需求，就像，我希望这个东西存在，我想要能够在这个世界里稍微玩一下。

It was just out of this need of, like, I I want to be able to I want this thing to exist, and I want to be able to kind of play in this world a little bit.

是的。

Yes.

太棒了。

Excellent.

你提到《Take》是一款谈判游戏，但我觉得这次播客正好说明它最初并非如此。

So you mentioned that Take is a negotiation game, but I think this is the perfect podcast talking about the fact that that's not how it started.

《Take》最初是作为单人游戏设计的，这也是我喜欢它的原因。

Take began as a solo game, which is why I like it.

那么，跟我说说这个吧。

So tell me about that.

告诉我它最初是什么样子，然后如何扩展到多人模式，以及这些模式在开发过程中是如何相互影响的。

Tell me what it looked like at the beginning and then how it expanded to multiplayer and then like how those modes have informed each other during development.

当然。

For sure.

是的。

Yeah.

它最初的设计理念是，只要有无限的规划时间，你就能消除任务中的所有风险。

So it began as, I think the original thesis of the game was that with unlimited amount of planning time, you could erase all of the risk from a job.

所以你可以想象，它最初就像Splatter制作冰淇淋一样。

And that was so you can imagine that the it originally set out, like, imagine if Splatter made ice cream.

没有运气成分。

There's no luck.

你必须完成所有需要发生的具体事项。

It was, you just had to accomplish all of the exact things that needed to happen.

这在单人游戏中确实行得通。

And that was something that did kind of work for a solo game.

我是说，某种程度上它很枯燥，不会有趣，我也不建议发布那个版本，但它确实某种程度上可行，只是前提有缺陷——因为抢劫案本该带来的那种‘能否逃脱’的悬念感，其实早已被决定了。

I mean, was, it was grindy in a way that wouldn't be fun and I wouldn't suggest that that version be published, but it was something that was kind of working but also had a flawed premise in the fact that the feeling that a heist is supposed to generate, the kind of, will you get away with it or not was already decided.

你在最初确实能感受到一点那种悬念，但当你真正到达那里时，结果其实已经决定了。

You you had that feeling a little bit at the very outset, but it was decided by the time that you arrived there.

当转向多人模式时，这一点变得尤为明显。

And that became a lot clearer when kind of moved into a multiplayer setting.

最初我只是为自己设计，不需要考虑‘另一个玩家坐在桌旁做他的事意味着什么’这种问题。

So originally, I was just doing it for myself before I didn't need to worry about, okay, what does it mean to have another player sitting at the table doing his thing?

所以基本上就是，如果这对我可行，理论上另一个人也可以同时做到。

So it was kind of from the ground up just, well, if this works for me, another person could theoretically do it at the same time.

你们会有互动点，一切都会自然展开。

You'll be points of interaction and that will all play out.

但随着我开始和更多人试玩以展示游戏机制，那些硬性规定的‘必须达成若干条件才能继续’的僵硬设计立刻显得难以为继。

But as I kind of started playing it with more people trying to show what the game was doing, the crunchiness of those kind of hard coded you need these number of things to be able to do it became immediately untenable.

根本不可能存在一个场景让三四个人同时进行那些计算。

Like there was not going to be any world in which three or four people at the same time could be doing those calculations.

于是开始转向引入更多运气成分和风险缓释机制，这些改动回流到单人模式时，大幅提升了游戏的可重玩性，并以更出色的方式呈现了劫案的情感核心。

And so then started going towards more of a, you know, introducing some of that luck, some of that risk mitigation, which then as it flowed back to the single player, it created so much more replayability and gave kind of the emotional core of a heist in a way that felt a lot better.

我深受《离开地球》的启发——这是款著名的单人游戏，但同时也支持多人谈判玩法。本质上你们只是并肩游戏，拥有无限交易自由度，可以通过风险转嫁来降低损失，比如一人负责研究后无偿分享给另一名玩家。

So I was inspired a lot by Leaving Earth, which is a, if you don't know, big Naffy solo game, but it is also a multiplayer negotiation game because essentially you are all just playing the game next to each other and you have basically unlimited ability to make trades and voice risk off onto each other and mitigate it through, you know, one person to do research and then share that for free with a second player.

是的，希望这些解答了你的问题。

So, yeah, that that's I hope that answers the question.

嗯。

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

那么我想聊的另一点是：这种微调过程持续了多久？

So I guess the other thing I wanna talk about is how long was this process of making small changes?

因为当我参与时，有人拿出了早期测试版本——比我们在办公室视为正式开发版本的那个更原始。

Because when I got there, you know, somebody pulled out you pulled out take and somebody was I played like a cut an earlier cut of it than we've been looking at in The Office as like our serious we're gonna do it game.

确实。

But Yeah.

你知道，人们会说，哦，是的。

You know, people would say, oh, yeah.

泰德已经研究这个好几年了。

Ted's been working on it for years.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

泰德断断续续研究这个已经好几年了。

Ted's been working on this on and off for years.

当我们谈论这个时，具体是指多长时间呢？

Like, when we talk about that, how long exactly are are we talking?

是的。

Yeah.

我在Leader公司工作快六年了，大约再过一周就满六年，而我研究这个项目大概有七年了。

So I've been at Leader for coming up on six years now in about a week, and I've been working on this for probably about seven then.

所以这个项目早于我在Leader Games的工作时间。

So this will take predates my work at Leader Games.

太棒了。

Awesome.

然后完成了最早的独奏版本。

And then did the earliest versions of solo.

对于不了解的观众，你们很快就能在Kickstarter上看到这个版本。

So for people who don't know, you're going to see a version of this soon when we do the Kickstarter.

不过我们要讨论的是开发中可能保留或移除的内容。

However, we're going to talk about things that exist that may or may not continue to exist in dev.

所以大家别紧张。

So everybody chill.

但就独奏模式而言，我觉得它很特别，因为多人谈判版本里有很多小任务，但没有那种核心大任务。

But so for solo, I think it's really special because, you know, the negotiation multiplayer version of the game is you know, there's a lot of smaller jobs, but there isn't like the one big job.

而独奏模式正是围绕一个核心大任务设计的，我们可以根据不同场景替换这个任务。

Whereas the solo mode is based on the one big job and we can swap it out among different scenarios.

我们有银行劫案、装甲车劫案，还有博物馆——虽然我个人不支持抢劫博物馆，但这确实是我目前最喜欢的场景。

We've got like the bank, we've the armored cars, we've got the museum, which is my favorite so far, even though I do not support robbing museums.

对了，Ted，你上周去哪儿了？

Where were you last week, by the way, Ted?

所以现在有很多非常酷的事情在进行。

So there's lots of really cool stuff going on.

是一直都有这样的场景设定，你想完成这个大任务，还是你后来意识到可以这么做？

What was there always a scenario like that and you wanted to do the big job or is that something that you realized you could do?

最初的时候——我办公室里还保留着，你们能看到，也许我们最终会分享出来——

So originally and I have in my office, you can see us and maybe we'll eventually share it.

最初所有的任务都具备现在单人模式中大任务的那种细节程度，这个游戏最初的核心机制是一个带有12个时间单位的大钟面，建筑外围的警察巡逻路线用颜色编码，对应钟面上不同的三分之一区域。

Originally, all of the jobs had, I would say, the level of detail that you see in the bigger jobs now in the solo mode, which is the original big mechanical hook of the game was there was this big clock with 12 time units around it, and the police routes on the outside of the building were coded to colors that would come up in different thirds of that clock.

你必须决定在钟面的哪个时间点开始行动，建筑内的每个活动都会消耗时间。

And you had to make the determination at what point on the clock you were gonna start the heist, then every activity inside the building would take time.

一旦你出来，就开始按照那个时间单位计算逃脱过程。

And then once you were out, you then started to get away at that time unit kind of through.

这意味着即使是珠宝店这样的场景，警报会改变时间，开门所需时间也会根据你带的团队和工具而有所不同，诸如此类的细节。

So which meant that even down to, you know, jewelry stores had, you know, alarms that would change the time and, you know, the amount of time it took the door to open a door was going to be different depending on which crew you brought, which tools you had, you know, all that stuff.

最终很多这样的细节被抽象化了，但我仍然希望为游戏的某些模式保留那些精细的细节。

The eventually a lot of that got abstracted away, but I definitely still wanted to have those kind of nitty gritty details for some mode of the game from there.

所以我认为由于游戏可玩性的原因，这部分内容最终从游戏的其他部分被剥离了。

So think the it kind of ended up being shaved away from the rest of the game due to playability reasons.

而在多人游戏中，你虽然得不到那些细节，但你会体验到不同的细节和谈判的微妙之处。

And it you know, in the multiplayer game, you get all of that You don't get that detail, but you get the different detail and the nuances of the negotiation.

因此，关于任务中实际需要遵循的规则数量，某种程度上是多余的。

So the amount of rules in terms of like what actually needs to happen on the job are kind of superfluous.

而在单人游戏中，你会获得更多电影化的体验。

Whereas in the solo game, we have a you're getting a lot more cinemas.

不。

No.

当你按照清单的具体步骤进行时，游戏体验会更加电影化。

It's a lot more cinematic as you are going through the specific steps of the list.

是的。

Yes.

而且，显然我非常喜欢这一点。

And, obviously, I really love that.

哇，这真是早期版本，我完全想象不到。

So, wow, this is a very early cut that I could not even imagine.

太棒了。

That's awesome.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以这款游戏在很多方面都有了重大进化。

So this game has heavily evolved in many ways.

我还想特别提一下驾驶系统，它超级有趣，让大家有个期待点。

The other one I kinda wanna highlight just so people have something to get excited about is the driving system is super fun.

这个系统是怎么开发的？

How did that one develop?

是原本就有大型驾驶场景吗？还是说这是你们后来

Was it, was there always like a big driving sequence or Not is that something you can

完全没有。

at all.

可以说，这是我在研究中发现的一个现象。

So one of the things that kind of came up in my, you know, I'd say it's research a little bit.

最终这成为了研究课题，但最初只是出于兴趣——我在办公室常说的那句话：没人会在银行里被抓。

It ended up being research, but it was just interest before that, was that, and people were hearing me say this on the office, nobody gets caught at the bank.

抢劫机构的人在被警察包围后选择在建筑物内投降的情况极其罕见。

It is incredibly rare for someone who's robbing an institution to have the police pull up and then them surrender inside the building.

要么是在逃跑过程中被抓，要么是在作案后的善后阶段。

It is always either on the getaway or it is in the aftermath of the job.

所以很久以前我就想让人们在逃跑时被抓。

So for a long time I knew that I wanted people getting caught on the getaway.

那才是事情败露的时刻，你才会意识到一切都结束了。

That was when that was going to happen, when you were going to realize that it was done.

问题在于...我想告诉你最初的逃跑系统是配合那个时间轮盘设计的。

The problem was kind of I guess I'll give you the the original getaway system was with that time wheel.

你基本上只需要沿着一条不会触碰到颜色时间轮上对应颜色的路线行进。

You basically just had to follow a route that didn't touch a color on that color's time thing.

这就是最初的笔记锁版本。

So that was the note lock version.

当我开始脱离这个机制后，它演变成每段逃跑距离都要掷一次骰子，然后你需要将这些骰子点数按从1到目标数字的顺序排列。

Once I started pulling away from that, it became you rolled essentially one dice per distance that you had to get and then you had to arrange them so that they're counting up one through the number you're going to.

如果出现不匹配的情况——比如你掷出两个2和一个3但需要1——你就得支付1点热度来把那个数字改成1。

And then anything that was off, like if you rolled two twos and a three and you needed a one, you would need to pay basically one heat to turn that tube into a one and get that.

这个系统曾让我感到自豪。

And that was a system I was like, I was proud of.

我当时觉得这个设计很聪明。

I was, I thought it was clever.

我沿用这个机制一段时间后，规则顾问Josh Yearsley来试玩时，用尽可能委婉的方式表示'这个不行'。

I ran with that for a while, and then Josh, Yearsley, the rule senator, came to town and we played it, and in the most tactful way possible, he was just like, not this.

他说'这个机制行不通'。

He was like, this isn't working.

就像这样，你掷骰子后还得琢磨所有不同的可能性。

It is like, you're rolling the dice and you have to figure out all the different things.

你完全失去了逃亡过程中的紧张感。

You're losing all of the tension from the getaway.

基本上大家一直在质疑这个设计理念——为什么我要为抢劫本身考虑这么多，最后却用一个简单的掷骰子来决定成败。

And basically people kept pushing against this idea of like, why am I doing all of this consideration about the heist itself and then doing this like flat roll to find out whether I did it or not.

那时候我彻底改变了方向，因为我意识到如果这是玩家最容易卡壳的地方，就需要设计更具体的场景来帮助想象当时发生了什么。

And that was when kind of switched the wheel because I realized that if that is where people were gonna get caught, it needed more of a set piece to kind of help imagine what exactly happened on that.

于是这个大转盘就出现了——原本你只是掷骰子，现在要避免用转盘指向骰子，而你转动转盘的方式会影响车辆在城市中的移动轨迹。

So that was where this kind of big wheel came in, where always it has been you're rolling dice, you are trying to not point at the dice with your wheel and the way you turn the wheel is influencing kind of where the car is moving in the city.

这个机制就是这样诞生的。

So that's kind of how that ended up there.

之后又花了大概一年到一年半时间调整具体规则：指向骰子意味着什么，转盘可以怎么转动等等。

And then it's been probably a year, year and a half since then of tweaking exactly what it means to point to the dice, how you can turn the wheel.

要知道很长时间里，转动转盘的力度和可用空间数量都很重要，后来这些规则被简化替换掉了。

You know, for a long time, it mattered how hard you were turning the wheel and how many spaces you had available, and that's been cut and replaced with some other stuff.

所以这是一段漫长的旅程，而且未来仍将持续很长时间。

So it's been a long journey and it will continue to be a long journey.

我确信这是我们目前正在努力的部分，可能还会经历多次迭代。

I'm sure that is the part we're working at right now and will probably go through a number of iterations.

我们还没有完全——我知道在工作室开发其他游戏时，我们曾多次有过'推倒重来'的时刻。

We're not quite and I know a number of times in studio working in other games, we've had the moment of scrap it.

每个人都去为它设计自己的方案。

Everybody go make your own design for it.

一周后我们再回来，看看我们进展如何，比如会有四个新方案。

We'll come back in a week and we'll see where we're at with, like, four new things.

但我们目前还不需要这样做。

And we haven't had to do that yet.

我们仍处于迭代循环的工作阶段。

We're still working within the, like, iterative loop.

我们还没有推倒现有系统，转向新系统。

We haven't, like, scrapped and gone to a new system yet.

有意思。

Interesting.

你提到了热度。

So you mentioned heat.

我们来聊聊这个，因为它确实很有《侠盗猎车手》的感觉，但我觉得这是好事。

Let's talk a little bit about that because it does feel very grand theft auto, but I think that's in a good way.

没错。

Yep.

你们在决定如何表现警方关注和被捕机制时，灵感来源是什么？

What what were your inspirations to decide, like, how you wanted to talk about police interest and getting caught?

调查系统由哪些元素构成？

What elements of investigation made it up?

当时很直接。

It was straight.

我试玩版本时，游戏还没有那种星级系统。

When I tried a cut of the game, it didn't have kind of that star system.

所以很长一段时间里，我们采用了一到五星的评级系统。

So like a one through five star system for a long time.

当我添加这个系统时，虽然不记得具体是什么促使我这么做，但当时确实需要一个类似的数字指标。

And when I added it and I don't remember exactly what caused me to add it, but there was some need for a like kind of a number there.

我需要明确知道'热度'值是多少，而添加星级后，玩家们的反应立刻证明这个设计无比正确。

I needed to know like exactly what the heat was and putting the stars there immediately the reaction from people who played it was so obviously correct.

这和电影等作品中常见的设定非常相似。

It is such like similar to a lot of things in movies and stuff.

《侠盗猎车手》对犯罪和抢劫的文化定义影响深远，采用星级系统基本上免去了游戏这部分的所有解释说明。

Grand Theft Auto has just such a cultural hold on what crime and heists mean, and being able to put the star system there was essentially cut out any explanation from that part of the game.

玩家们完全理解：警察追捕你的力度用1到5颗星来衡量。

People understand how much the cops wanna get you is measured between one to five.

如果超过五颗星，你就完蛋了。

And if you go over five, you're toast.

我们之前几次谈到调研，这次要说的才是真正让我对游戏感到兴奋的点——除了它已经拥有完善的销售模式这点（这点立刻俘获了我的心）。

So we, you know, we talked about research a couple of times, we've kind of touched on it, but this is actually the thing that really got me worked up about the game other than the fact that it already has a robust sella mode, which is key to my heart immediately.

所以，你知道，你了解很多类似的事情，比如，从来没人会在银行被抓，或者说，你为这个游戏选择了一个非常特定的时间段

So, you know, you you know a lot of things like, well, nobody ever gets caught at the bank or, you know, like, you picked a very specific time period for

这款游戏

this game.

大概是八十年代左右

What so it's like eighties ish.

是什么启发你选择这个时期的？

What inspired you to pick this period?

还有，你对此做了哪些研究？

And, like, what kind of research have you done about it?

是的

Yeah.

我想说的是，就像我说的，我一直对这个很感兴趣

So I I'd say the kind of I've like I said, I've always been interested.

有个很棒的播客我一直在听，现在应该听完所有集数了，大概200集，每集聚焦一起劫案外加劫案新闻，这个播客就叫《劫案播客》

There's a great podcast that I listen to, I think all of the episodes by now, like 200 episodes each focusing on one heist a piece plus heist news, which is individual, it's called heist podcast.

你可以查查看。

You can look it up.

然后我读了很多关于这类事件的书。

And then read a number of books about all this stuff.

当你深入了解这些案例后，会发现电影往往过于强调劫案的独特性，比如‘这个计划有什么特别之处？’

And as you kind of see more of these things, know, I think movies are often so much about this kind of bespoke nature of the heist of like, oh, what makes this plan interesting?

而现实中，其实有很多经过验证的老套路，模式会自然显现。

When in reality, there's a lot of just tried and true methods and there's a lot of just patterns emerge.

就像警方有固定的调查方式一样，某些证据会更不利或相对无害。

The same way that the police like have a certain way that they investigate these things, so there's certain pieces of evidence that are going to be worse or not as bad.

正如我所说，这些模式会自然形成。

They're, like I said, just these patterns emerge.

说到年代背景，当初我们把项目带到工作室时，确实有人想走六七十年代风格，但我解释了为什么戴夫坚持选择八十年代末九十年代初——这有几个原因。

So speaking of the time period for a second, because this was a thing where when we brought it into the studio, there was certainly a number of people who felt like they wanted to do like the kind of the sixties, seventies vibe and I kind of I explained why Dave is always gonna say kind of late eighties, early nineties for a number of reasons.

首先，那时现金经济虽仍存在，但已开始走向没落。

One, it was kind of the the cash economy was still alive but it was starting to sunset.

所以在1985年之前，几乎所有重大劫案都是银行抢劫。

So you look at prior to like 1985, nearly every major heist was a bank job.

因为当时流通的主要是现金，纸币泛滥。

It was all cash because there was so much just paper money floating around.

之所以能逍遥法外，是因为现金不像其他物品那样容易追踪。

It was get away with because it's not as trackable as stealing certain other items.

如果我们把时间线设定得太早，游戏中的各种任务就缺乏我想要的那种多样性。

So that didn't have the kind of diversity that I wanted to see in the different jobs in the game if we go back too early.

那个时代发生的许多事件，使得人们盗窃的物品开始多样化。

And then a number of things kind of happened in that era that kind of were to diversify these things that people are stealing.

因此在游戏中，除了现金之外还有六种可盗窃物品，比如那个时代兴起的消费电子产品。

So in the game, there are six different goods that can be stolen in addition to cash and things like, you know, the rise of consumer electronics was happening in that era.

突然间这些东西变得更小巧便携，价格也更昂贵。

So all of a sudden these things were getting smaller and more portable and more expensive.

比如梵高的《向日葵》失窃案。

You had Vince Van Gogh's Sunflowers.

艺术品价格飙升，那是一场规模空前的拍卖会，具体几百万我记不清了，但那是人们第一次意识到，哦，艺术品能值这么多钱。

Art went at a huge, it was a massive auction, I forget exactly how many millions, but that was the first time that kind of a bunch of people's ears perked up to, Oh, art can be this valuable.

我是说，以前你知道成交价也就几十万，但突然一幅画能卖到数百万美元，这确实引人注目。

I mean, you always know sales were hundreds of thousands before, but all of sudden millions of dollars for a single painting, that was notable.

这也激发了人们的收藏欲望，推高了市场需求，引发了一系列连锁反应。

And it also made people want to collect them, which raised the demand, which did all of those different things.

此外，这个时代还发生了钻石和黄金价格波动之类的事情，这些都很好，但主要还是电子产品、艺术品这些，以及现金的逐渐退出，迫使劫匪们不得不拓宽目标范围。

And then there's some stuff about like diamond and gold pricing that kind of went on in this era, and that's all well and good, but the main thing were kind of those electronics, the art, and then the cash kind of sunsetting and forcing people to diversify their targets.

所以这很重要。

So that was important.

从技术角度看，它也处在一个非常有趣的时期。

It also exists in a very interesting time technology wise.

如今很多盗窃案都是网络黑客攻击，这些可没那么刺激。

Nowadays, there's so much, a lot of like heist are hacking jobs there, which are just not as exciting.

它们缺乏电影感。

They're not as cinematic.

我对这些不太理解。

I don't understand them as well.

但老派的做法，我认为你看到了两波浪潮，可以说是抢劫的黄金时代，即八十年代末、九十年代初那段时间。

But the old school, I think you saw like two waves of like, I'll say the golden era of heist, which was that late eighties, early nineties time period.

然后在2008年左右，尤其是在美国，出现了大量这类事件，你可以想象为什么在那个时期突然有人试图寻找补充收入的途径。

And then around 2008, there was a lot of them, which you can, especially in The US, which you can imagine why suddenly some people were trying to figure out ways to supplement their income around that era.

不过确实，我觉得在九十年代初，当你听说这些大案时，感觉就很明显了。

But yeah, and I think that early nineties, it felt obvious when you hear a of these big ones.

这种现象确实存在，并一直延续到了21世纪初。

It was and it did extend into the early two thousands.

我还要说，看看那些最大的盗窃案，其中很多可以说在21世纪初达到了顶峰。

I'll say too, you look at some of the biggest heists, a lot of those, I'd say it peaked in the early two thousands.

之后随着人们携带现金减少以及安防措施逐步完善，这类案件就逐渐减少了。

And then it kind of winnowed down as people started carrying less cash and security started to catch up.

我之前对这些完全不了解。

I had no idea about any of that.

这太有趣了。

That is fascinating.

所以为准备这次节目我最喜欢的一件事，就是你给我们发了一份超棒的电影、书籍清单，让我们能通过这些作品进入‘劫案’的氛围。

So one of my favorite things that we've kind of done as prep for take is that you sent us this like really great list of films and books and, like, things that we could read to, like, get into the mood for take.

那么对于正在收听并可能想获取推荐的朋友们，咱们先从电影开始吧。

So for, people who are listening and might want some recs, let's start with movies.

你最喜欢的劫案题材电影有哪些？特别是那些能让人进入‘劫案’思维状态的？

What are your favorite heist movies, especially once they'll get you in, like, a take state of mind?

好的。

Yeah.

如果你不介意的话，让我调出清单，这样我们能看着同一份资料讨论。

Let me if you don't mind, let me pull up the list so that I we're looking at the same thing.

我不

I don't

需要

have to

不太记得具体列了哪些。

remember exactly what landed on there.

好的。

Alright.

正在查看。

Scooping up.

我们看到名单上第一个是《盗火线》。

And we see I mean, I know the first one on the list is Rafiki.

《盗火线》这种电影在当今很难被拍出来，因为整个盗窃过程耗时实在太长了。

And Rafiki is something that like it is not the kind of movie that you'd expect to be made today because of how long it takes during the heist.

《盗火线》有个著名的场景——大概有20到30分钟几乎完全静默，只有他们从天花板潜入和钻开保险柜的声音。

Rafiki has an infamous, I think it's either twenty or thirty minutes, completely silent, not completely silent, but the only sounds are the sounds of them coming through the ceiling and then drilling into the back of the safe.

从前期踩点到这个场景，整个过程展现出的周密性，再次证明了这类工作需要多么惊人的专注力——特别是那些需要精心策划的盗窃案，而非简单的持枪抢劫。

And between that and then earlier on kind of casing the job, it is just so methodical and it shows again how genuinely like impressively focused these jobs can be, especially when you're looking at things that aren't, know, stick them up jobs or robberies.

当有人需要潜入一栋建筑时，这种事情确实需要时间。

When someone needs to like get in through a building, this thing takes time.

我是说，很多著名的盗窃案，这些人要在金库里待上几小时甚至几天，钻开保险箱之类的东西。

Mean, a lot of famous sites, I mean, these people are spending, hours, if not days, inside the vaults, drilling out the safety deposit boxes and stuff like that.

而《雷菲比》是少数几部我认为真正捕捉到那种专注度和紧张感的电影之一。

And Refibi is one of the only movies that actually, I think, captures that amount of focus and intensity.

而且它年代非常久远。

For and it's also it's very old.

这部1955年的电影在网上几乎找不到资源。

It's impossible to find online from 1955.

我之所以看过，是因为在巴诺书店找到了标准收藏版的碟片。

I only have seen it because I found the Criterion copy at Barnes and Noble.

所以它确实很难找。

So it's it's like it's difficult to find.

据我所知，它并没有上线任何流媒体平台。

It's not really in streaming as far as I'm aware.

对了，你看过...我好像还没借那张DVD给你吧？

And then have you seen have I I don't think I've borrowed the DVD yet.

没有。

No.

这其实在我们的待办事项清单上，作为一项工作活动需要完成的事情。

It's that's actually on our list of, like, things that we need to do as a work activity.

所以是的。

So Yes.

对。

Yeah.

很好。

Good.

值得一提的是，接下来我要提到的是《Rafiki》和我列出的另一部电影——库布里克的《杀手》。

And the nice thing about So also I'll mention Rafiki and the next one I put on the list which was the killing, the Kubrick one.

这两部电影都受到海斯法典的限制，规定罪犯最终不能带着钱逃脱。你看就连原版的《十一罗汉》（抱歉剧透1960年代的《十一罗汉》），他们也没能带走钱。

Those are They were both falling under the Hays Code which stipulated that the criminals could not get away with the money the end of the which is, so you look at even like the original Ocean's 11, like, sorry, spoilers for the 1960s Ocean's 11, they also don't get away with the money.

这是必须的，因为当时有道德规范的要求。

And that was required because it was like a morality segment.

这是我们无法展现的，犯罪带来的痛苦。

It's what we can't show, crime pain.

而《杀戮》著名的结局场景非常令人沮丧，所有计划都泡汤了，他们没能逃脱。

And the killing famously has a very frustrating end sequence where it all blows away on them and they don't get away.

尽管你一直在为他们加油打气。

Even though like you are rooting for them.

要知道，这不仅仅是类型片的一个元素。

Like, don't think that is just like a element of the genre.

你希望犯罪能成功。

You're rooting for the success of the crime.

这就是紧张感的来源。

That's where the tension comes from.

所以这两部早期作品里犯罪没成功的情节总让人有点泄气，尽管我觉得电影的前半部分很棒。

So it's those two early ones where it doesn't really work out is always kind of like deflating a little bit, even though I think the first parts of the movie are great.

绕开这个限制的是《黄金三镖客》系列的第二部《黄昏双镖客》，这是我清单上一个有点奇怪的补充。

The one that gets around this, which I was kind of a weird add to the list was For A Few Dollars More, which is the second of the Sir Chili Young, Man With No Name trilogy.

这部影片虽然技术上仍属于西部片，但包含了许多劫案类型的元素——他们确实策划了一场抢劫，争夺一笔现金，但真正的掠夺物却是他人的性命。

And that one is, it has a lot of the elements of like the heist genre, even though it is technically what they're still There is a heist in it and there is like some cash that they are fighting over but the real heist is like other men's lives.

这更像是他们获得的赏金，由于他们本身都是罪犯，这不算传统意义上的犯罪，所以最终他们得以逃脱。

It's like a bounty that they get and because it wasn't like a crime in the same way because they were all criminals, they do get away with it in the end.

结局确实圆满收场。

Like it does work out well.

奇怪的是没人把它当作劫案电影讨论，但它确实具备许多与该类型相关的元素，尽管故事背景不同。

So that one has like weirdly, no one talks about it as a heist movie, but it has a lot of these kind of elements that actually tie in with the genre, even if it's not in the same setting.

这些算是比较经典的老片了。

So those are kind of like the main older ones.

我还选了《热天午后》和《瓶装火箭》，特别想提《瓶装火箭》，这是韦斯·安德森的处女作，可能是最真实的劫案电影——你会看到那种低级笨拙的作案手法，比如他们试图抢劫书店收银台，后来又想去冷冻厂偷保险柜。

Know I also have Dog Day Afternoon and Bottle Rocket on there, and Bottle Rocket is the one that I want to call specifically, which is it is Wes Anderson's first movie and it is probably the most accurate heist movie for what you hear just like kind of the low level bumbling job, the way that they are trying to, like they're trying to rob the cash register from like a bookstore And then they're trying to get the safe of a like refrigeration plant.

这类情节我在社会新闻里经常看到，尤其是那些劫案报道，比如某地遭窃时出的各种岔子，或是有人抢劫手机店却被自动门困住的视频。这些可爱的小失误正是《瓶装火箭》打动我的地方。

And these are like things that I hear all the time in like story, people, like especially in the heist news, like when you hear about this like a local interest piece of like, oh, a place got broken into the things went wrong, or you'll watch videos of like someone trying to rob a cell phone store and the doors shut down and they don't get out, these little kind of mistakes that are just kind of endearing in a way, and that is what Bottle Rocket kind of represents to me.

此外我还选了一批后期拍摄的佳作。

And then I have a whole suite of like kind of later movies that I think are really good.

我想特别列举的是《幸运罗根》，这是另一部喜剧风格的劫案电影，但它非常注重过程，就像许多劫案电影最终会变成角色研究片那样——这很好，我也喜欢。

The only one that I will like enumerate on, I think is Logan Lucky, which is another comedy one, but it is so process focused in the way that a lot of heist movies end up becoming like character pieces later on, which is fine and that's good.

我确实喜欢这类电影，但要说到让我进入那种思维状态，关键在于‘我们得先做这个，再做那个，这个出错了，那个也出问题了’的过程。

Like, I like movies like that, but in terms of like what is getting me in the Tate state of mind, it is the process of we gotta do this, then we gotta do this, we gotta do this went wrong, this went wrong.

我们该如何绕过这些障碍？

How do we circumnavigate that?

所以当我真正需要激发创作灵感时，我就会重温这部电影，因为它既娱乐性十足，又充满乐趣。

So yeah, that's the one that I like if I'm really feeling, if I need to like kickstart the creative juices, that's the one that I'll go back and watch because it's so entertaining and it's so, yeah, just so much fun.

好的。

Alright.

不仅这些推荐很棒，听你谈论它们还让我产生了更多问题，

So not only these great recommendations, but hearing you talk about them leads me to more questions,

当然，这是

which is, of course, a

真正的游戏。

true game.

游戏对我来说永远如此。

Game for me always.

所以首先我想谈谈的是，因为我们之前确实提到过这个游戏的早期线索，那就是《Tate》里没有枪。

So the first thing I wanna just talk about, because we did talk about it kind of in, like, early hints about this game, is there are no guns in Tate.

是的。

Yes.

而且也没有直接呈现的警察形象。

And there are no, like, directly represented police.

虽然有调查环节，但地图上其实没有真正的警察，除了那些在你开车时显示热力追踪的警力。

There are investigations, but there aren't actually, like, cops on the map, really, other than, like, the ones that just kind of show heat coming on you as you drive.

对。

Yeah.

是什么促使你们做出这些特定设计决策的？

What drove those particular decisions

没错。

Yeah.

进入这款游戏时是怎么考虑的？

Going into this game?

所以没有枪支的设计直接源于调研结果——基本上就是如果你真的在作案时开枪，就一定会被抓。

So the no guns thing was really a direct result of the research, which basically was if you actually pull the trigger on a job, you will get caught.

这会极大提高风险级别，据我所知没有哪起造成人员死亡的大型劫案最终能逃脱法网。

It just raises the stakes of such a level that I don't think you can find a major heist where somebody was killed that did end up getting caught.

所有完全逍遥法外的案例都是非暴力抢劫案。

All of the ones that like got away with it fully were non violent heists.

所以关于表现手法这个想法，如果让某人持枪并能够使用它还能逍遥法外，这在某种程度上显得不太真实，于是这个设定就自然而然地被历史性地采用了。

So the idea of like representing, it just became a historical to represent the idea that if someone had a gun and was able to use it and then still get away with it, just didn't ring true in a way.

因此除了考虑到可接受度外，这个设定很容易就被删减了。就像你之前提到的卢浮宫案件——无论是上周还是几天前发生的——之所以如此引人入胜，我认为正是因为它是非暴力的。

So that was like an easy cut in addition to it being palatable for like, and I don't like, don't, the Louvre, you know, as you referenced earlier, the Louvre job that just happened last week or a few days ago, whatever it was, was so compelling, I think, to so many people because it was nonviolent.

没有人受到伤害。

Nobody got hurt.

是的。

Yeah.

这就是令人兴奋的地方，也是能赢得尊重的原因——即使你对王冠珠宝被盗之类的事感到愤怒，至少没人受伤。

And that's what like is exciting and that's what like gains, that's what allows you to not lose respect Even if you're mad about like the crown jewels being stolen and all of that stuff, at least nobody got hurt.

我认为这其中确实有很多值得探讨的地方。

And I think that there's actually a lot to be said about that.

幸运的是，我既有历史依据可以依托，又能从中获益。

So I luckily have the historical part to like fall back on, but I also have the benefit of it.

比如，我不清楚有多少人真的希望在理想化场景中使用武器。

Like, okay, I don't know how many people actually want to be kind of utilizing weaponry in their idealized.

而关于警察的设定则是个视角选择问题。

And then the cops thing was a point of view choice.

我们是从罪犯的视角来讲述这个故事的。

It was, we're telling the story from the point of view of the criminals.

你根本无从知晓警方在任何时间点的行动。

You just simply don't know what the police are doing at any given time.

你也不知道他们是如何展开调查的。

You don't know how they're investigating.

我们在电影里看到镜头切换时是这样，但在现实生活中，你只能怀着偏执坐在公寓里，等着看警察是否会在外面出现。

We see that in movies when it cuts away, but you don't, in real life, all you have is the paranoia of sitting at your apartment waiting to see if the cops show up outside of it.

所以我也不想过于深入地展现警方那边的情况。

So I want to represent too deeply what was kind of going on on the police's side of things.

当然，我从未想过让玩家扮演警方那一方。

And certainly I'd never wanted to have somebody playing on the police side of things.

这款游戏的目标，你知道，最终变成了和朋友们坐下来一起策划一场抢劫。

The goal of the game, you know, eventually became sitting down with your friends to plan a heist together.

如果让其中一个朋友试图阻止你们得手，那就没那么有趣了。

Having one of your friends trying to stop you from getting away with it wasn't, just wasn't as fun.

如果我能用游戏系统本身来表现这一点，为什么还要安排角色扮演那个身份呢？

And if I could represent it with the game system itself, why cast would play in that role?

有道理。

Makes sense.

我们聊到这些电影时还想到其他事情，我觉得这非常有意思。

The other things come up as we were talking about these these movies, and I find this very charming.

我们谈论的是对实施抢劫的人的兴奋感，或者说尊重。

We talk about excitement about, like, respect for the people doing the heist.

你把一些小错误描述得很有魅力。

You describe some of the small mistakes as, like, charming.

而且，我们讨论的是抢劫的乐趣。

And, like, we're talking about, like, the fun of heists.

你知道吗？

You know?

我是说，这些毕竟是犯罪行为。

I mean, they are crimes.

你认为抢劫的什么特质让我们觉得如此引人入胜，以至于我们某种程度上希望有人能逍遥法外？

What is it that you think about heists that makes us find them so compelling in a sense where it's, we kinda hope somebody gets away with it.

是的，我认为是因为欲望的对象非常明确且容易引起共鸣。

Yeah, I think it is because the object of desire is so obvious and relatable.

你知道，如果你不想杀人，就不会对谋杀产生共鸣。

You know, you don't relate to a murder if you don't wanna kill someone.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

比如，你确实想要钱。

Like, and you do want money.

所以我觉得每个人都能理解为什么有人想从银行偷钱。

So like I think everyone like understands why somebody would want to steal money from a bank.

所以你会遇到一个有可理解动机的人，然后我认为这些工作需要投入大量努力这一点也很特别。

So you get someone who's like understandable motivation and then I think there is something about just the amount of effort that goes into these jobs.

再说一次，没人会尊重那种直接冲进银行挥舞枪支吓唬人的家伙。

Again, like nobody nobody respects the person who just walks into a bank and starts waving the gun around and scares a bunch of people and stuff.

而是当银行员工在长假后的周二早晨上班时，发现金库被悄无声息地闯入，只留下这些痕迹。

It's when the bank staff arrives on Tuesday morning after a long holiday weekend and finds the balsam broken into, And that's all that's left.

这部分就会让人感觉，啊，真酷。

That's the part that's like, ah, cool.

至少对我来说是这样。

At least to me.

而且我认为其他人也这么想，因为我看到其他人谈论这件事的方式。

And I think to other people, because I see the way other people talk about it.

是的，所以我认为这只是动机和投入努力的一种结合。

And yeah, so I think it's just a combination of motivation and kind of the effort that goes into it.

我认为像抢劫和犯罪这类事，除了在媒体上有存在感，它们还有，我是说，很多这类事情都有文化背景支撑。

And I think like heist and crime, besides having like a media presence, they also have a, I mean, there's cultural backbone to a lot of these things.

之前提到过约翰·迪林杰，他有个著名的举动就是在抢劫银行时会撕毁抵押记录，这样银行就搞不清谁欠了多少钱。

Talked about John Dillinger before, famously will tear up mortgage records when he would rob banks so that the bank couldn't tell who owed what money.

这种行为让他成了某种民间英雄。

And that like kind of turned him into this kind of like folk hero.

尤其是在那个年代，人们对银行并没有太多好感。

And it was especially, it was at the time too when people weren't that fond of banks.

我觉得现在人们对银行或许多掌握大量财富的机构也没有太多好感。

I don't think people are that fond of banks or a lot of places that are, you know, holding on to a lot of wealth right now too.

所以这里面有点罗宾汉式的意味，我想人们能理解这一点。

So there's a little bit of like Robin Hood aspect to it, I think, that people get.

再说一遍，如果有人受伤，这些就都白搭了，所以，就像我说的，那些真正的大案往往没人受伤，因为他们知道那不会成功。

Again, a lot of that goes out the window if anyone gets hurt, which is why, I mean, but you look at, like I said, the really big jobs, often nobody does get hurt because they know that's not a path to success.

是的，如果你对抢劫这个想法感到不安，请告诉我。

Yeah, I mean, if you feel, if your gut churns at the idea of a heist, please let me know.

完全没有。

Not at all.

试着把它抛到脑后。

Try to throw it out.

对。

Yeah.

因为

Mean, because

这更像是一种让你觉得调皮的有趣感觉。

it's It's more of like a it it makes you feel naughty in a fun way.

没错。

Yeah.