苹果的AI支出是否正确？微软与OpenAI的新现实，Stargate在哪里？

在结束之前，再说两件苹果的事。

Two more Apple things before we go.

首先吧，你看日历，现在咱们可能觉得苹果这步棋走对了，但说实话，他们的AI产品简直一塌糊涂，啥都没有。

First of all, you know, looking at the calendar, we are gonna you know, right now, we're saying maybe Apple is making the right move, but even still they have a terrible AI product, like nothing.

一个月后咱们就能知道，这一切所谓的‘明智的克制’，到底是真聪明，还是纯粹瞎搞，根本不懂怎么造这类产品——毕竟新系列下个月就要来了。

We're gonna find out in a month about whether all this, like, you know, sort of what would you call it?

他们是不是傻，根本不会做这种产品？

Wise restraint is actually wise or whether they're just being stupid and they have no idea how to build these products because new series supposed to come next month.

是的。

Yeah.

我真没想到，这事居然这么快就到这一步了。

And I mean, I think it's wild that it's that quick already that it's happening.

不过话说回来，要是你信马克·古尔曼的爆料，那其实他们已经推迟好几次了，本来都打算先推个测试版出来。

At the same time, like, if you believe the the reporting by, you know, Mark Gurman, it's basically like they've still delayed it a couple of times, right, from when it was gonna roll out in potentially beta form to get it out there early.

也许他们就是想憋个大的，等到WWDC发布会那天，突然甩出来，让大家惊呼：‘天啊，他们终于做成了！’

And, you know, maybe it's just wanting to to keep it back in order to make a big big wow moment at at WWDC when they do actually launch these things and unveil them to the world like, look, we finally did it.

Siri 终于修好了，这事儿真该好好吹一波。

Siri is finally fixed, and we can make a big to do of it.

但愿真是这样吧。

You hope that's the case.

也有可能恰恰相反，他们还在头疼怎么整合，各种边缘情况搞不定，对吧？

It's also possible that it's the opposite of that, that they're having still some troubles integrating it and the edge cases, right?

就像你说的，亚马逊当年做 Alexa，谷歌从 Google Assistant 换到 Bard 再到 Gemini，一路磕磕绊绊；苹果现在从老 Siri 往新系统过渡，估计也够呛——虽然名字可能还叫 Siri。

Because much like Amazon, as you brought up with sort of, you know, their own work and Alexa and whatnot on AI dating back to the Siri days, the earlier Siri days too, They've had a hell of a time and Google has as well sort of transitioning from their original models, Google Assistant to Gemini, to Bard and then to Gemini, and then Alexa to Alexa Plus, and Apple Siri to I assume it's still gonna be called Siri.

也许不该再叫 Siri 了，但说白了，苹果现在面临的难题，跟别人当年一模一样，转型哪有那么容易。

Maybe it shouldn't still be called Siri, but it's still like, you know, there's a world in which Apple is having a hard time sort of making that transition just as the others have before them.

我觉得 Alexa Plus 真是这几个里面最出彩的，我得说实话。

I think Alexa Plus is the best of the bunch, I have to say.

我真的很喜欢用它。

I really I really like using it.

确实不错，至少比以前强多了。

It is good, you know, relative, I think, to where it was at.

这确实是个挺棒的对话型AI。

It's it's a good sort of conversational AI.

不过你会用它来做亚马逊希望用户用它做的那些事吗？

Do you use it though for any of the things that Amazon, you know, hopes to use it for?

比如，你会用它买东西吗？

Do you shop with it, for example?

偶尔吧。

Sometimes.

我以前是用老版Alexa买东西，但我真正用它的地方，是解决家里人的争执。

But I was shopping with old Alexa, but what I really use it for is to settle arguments in the house.

比如我和我老婆吵架的时候——我之前好像说过，我是美国人，她是欧洲人，我们对哪个系统更好各有各的坚持，一吵起来就直接喊Ziggy，对，我们给它改名叫Ziggy了，还有别的名字，反正就喊它出来。

Like, when we're debating things, like my wife and I, I think I've said this before, but I'm American, she's European, we have strong opinions on which system is better, so we'll just sort of get into a debate and then all of a sudden we'll just summon We could we changed its name to Ziggy like it has some other names, so we'll summon Ziggy and Cute.

这么一来，我们俩的争执就立马解决了。

That tends to settle the settle the argument for us.

这其实正好印证了之前说的iPhone那个点。

And, I mean, that sort of speaks directly to what, you know, the iPhone point earlier.

听起来你用它主要是因为家里到处都是设备。

It's like it sounds like you use it basically because you have devices around your house.

对吧？

Right?

它就是个

And it's a It's

我们身边的东西。

with us.

它确实是个不错的对话型AI。

It's a good conversational AI.

你可以用它代替掏出手机打开ChatGPT或者Claude之类的。

And so you can use it instead of taking out your phone and and bringing up ChatGPT or Claude or whatnot.

我觉得这又把问题抛回苹果那边了——到底什么才是最好的AI设备？

And I think that that's again a case in in Apple's court, like, what's the best AI device?

就是你随身带着的那个。

It's the one you have on you.

没错。

Exactly.

就是你手里的那个。

The one in your hand

不是那个遥不可及的理论产品。

or It's not the one that it's not the theoretical one out there.

而是几十亿人已经拥有的那个。

It's the one that billions of people already have.

对极了。

That's right.

好的。

Okay.

最后一件事，之后我们先休息一下，再聊微软和OpenAI。

Last thing, and then we're gonna go to break and then talk about Microsoft and OpenAI.

我觉得咱们可以先庆祝一下——当Ternus这个消息刚出来的时候，我们都觉得这事不简单，可外面却有人说，别想了，库克还会继续干下去。

I think we can spike the football for a moment and you in particular that when this Ternus talk was starting to surface, I think we both felt strongly that there was something there, and there were voices out there that said, nope, Tim Cook is gonna stay for a while.

结果还真就发生了。

And and here it happened.

过渡已经在进行了。

The transition is underway.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我们之前聊过这事，我觉得除了新闻报道本身，金融时报的报道其实做得特别到位，他们抓得很准，我觉得确实如此。

I mean, again, I we had talked about this, and I feel like beyond sort of the reporting, I think Financial Times, right, ends up looking really good in the way that they framed it, and I think that, you know, that was accurate.

而且他们之所以准确，是有原因的。

And I think it was accurate for a reason.

我觉得肯定是有人想让外界知道，库克当时真的在认真考虑这个决定。

I think that there was, you know, that someone wanted it to be known that Cook was very seriously weighing this decision.

也许这事儿还没到板上钉钉的地步，谁也不敢打包票。

And maybe it wasn't a slam dunk, you know, that it was gonna happen for sure.

他可能想趁假期好好想想，确保自己做出的决定不像当年伊格尔那样——他第一次交班给鲍勃·艾格，结果碰上疫情，整个局面彻底崩了，迪士尼搞得一团糟。库克大概也想留点余地，看看情况到底会怎样。

Maybe he wanted to take the holiday time to think it through and and make sure that, you know, like, unlike Bob Iger in the past that when he handed off that first go around to Bob Jaypek and then COVID hit and and the world blew up and and it ended up being a really bad situation for Disney, you know, maybe Cook also wanted some optionality and just to see, you know, what what it was.

但我们之前聊过，这事肯定有苗头，毕竟那时候对他来说简直是天时地利——财报即将公布，而第一季度的结果也确实如预期那样。

But we had talked about it seemed like it would there was some smoke to you know, some fire behind that smoke because it just was a perfect time for for him to do it if he chose to do it because of the way that the earnings were gonna play out, which they did in q one.

苹果创下了有史以来最高的营收纪录。

Record all time record earnings for Apple.

再加上股价的反应、公司市值现在都快四万亿美元了，还有四月一日苹果迎来五十周年纪念日，这些都凑在一块儿。

And because of the way that the stock was likely to react and it's bet $4,000,000,000,000 now, and because of Apple's fiftieth anniversary in April 1.

库克显然很看重这个日子。

And, you know, Cook, obviously, that was important to him.

他表现得再清楚不过了。

He made it very clear.

所以所有这些因素都刚好对上了。

And so all of these things came into place.

我觉得有一件事被大家忽略了，我也没怎么看到媒体报道，但在我心里，这其实是个重要信号：当苹果宣布亚瑟·莱文森和罗纳德·休格能继续留任，哪怕过了70岁这个传统退休年龄，再加上埃利森当董事会主席，这在我这种搞风投、懂公司治理的人看来，明显是冲着什么大事在等。

The one thing that I think was downplayed for the most part that I didn't read about too much, but I think was in my mind at least a big indicator of this was the the sort of board machinations of and maybe this is just because this is sort of, you know, my my world of of investing in VC and and whatnot and board dynamics where when the Apple announced that Arthur Levinson and Ronald Sugar would be able to stay on board after their 70 birthdays, which is the historic step down time for Apple board members, and the fact that Elevensen was the board chair, that to me indicated that it was very likely that they were waiting on something.

对吧？

Right?

他们不想在蒂姆·库克马上就要接任董事长的情况下，再另选一个人当主席。

They didn't want to appoint a new board chair if Tim Cook was going to come in within a very short amount of time and become that board chair.

我觉得，某种程度上，事情可能就这么简单——他们干脆延长了那些人的任期，让他们留任，一方面是为了公司能平稳过渡。

And I think that that's, you know, in some ways, it might be as simple as that, that they basically extended, you know, the the contract of those folks and allowed them to stay on, both because they needed a good transition, you know, for the overall company.

过去几个月里，除了库克这件事，公司高层变动其实一直没停过。

There's been a lot of turnover as has been clear over the past many months beyond just the cook stuff.

高管换人频繁，董事会里也有变动。

There's a lot of executive turnover and even some on the board.

所以他们需要稳得住的人，尤其是在CEO交接这种关键时候，更得靠得住。

And so they wanted steady hands, but you also want steady hands when you're doing a CEO transition.

我觉得，从这些迹象里能读出很多东西，后来也确实证明了这一点。

And I think, again, you could read a lot into that tea leaves wise, and I think that that ended up being the case.

好的。

Alright.

我们休息一下。

Let's go to break.

咱们来聊聊微软和OpenAI取消AGI条款的事，还有微软允许OpenAI跟任何云服务商合作——这事儿其实挺重磅的，但我觉得在OpenAI的新闻里被低估了。

We're gonna talk about Microsoft and OpenAI doing away with the AGI clause and Microsoft allowing OpenAI to work with any cloud provider, which is fairly big news that I don't think has been played up enough as far as the OpenAI story goes.

当然，最近新闻太多，想全跟上不容易，不过等会儿回来，我们会好好讲讲这件事，顺便更新一下Stargate基础设施的最新进展。

Of course, there's been a lot of stuff in the news, so hard to follow everything, but we'll try to cover this story and also give you the latest on the Stargate infrastructure build out when we come back right after this.

你瞧。

Look.

如果你现在有孩子在上学，那这场景你肯定熟。

If you have a kid in school right now, you know the drill.

本来二十分钟就能做完的作业，最后拖成两小时，还动不动就哭鼻子。

What should take twenty minutes of homework ends up taking two hours and usually ends in tears.

可每个靠谱的家教呢？

And every good tutor?

早就排满好几个月了。

Well, they're fully booked for months.

本期节目由Brainly赞助播出。

This episode is brought to you by Brainly.

Brainly 是由教育专家打造的AI私人辅导工具，不是那种通用聊天机器人。

Brainly is an AI powered personal tutor built by educators, not a general purpose chatbot.

它不光给你孩子答案，还会一步步引导他们理解解题过程，真正掌握知识点。

It doesn't just give your kid the answer, it walks them through step by step explanations so they actually understand the material.

它能摸清你孩子的学习方式，及时发现他们卡壳的地方，三分钟内就定制出专属学习方案。

It learns how your child learns, diagnosis when they're struggling, and builds a personalized learning path in under three minutes.

全天候在线，不用再为约时间头疼，价格还不到私人家教的零头。

Available twenty four seven, there's no scheduling headaches, and it's just a fraction of the cost of a private tutor.

期末考试快到了。

Finals are coming.

赶紧帮孩子规划好复习计划吧。

Build your teen's study plan now.

花不了几分钟。

It only takes minutes.

去 brainly.com/bigtech，用我的专属码 Big Tech，首月订阅立减五成。

Go to brainly.com/bigtech to get 50% off your first Brainly subscription with my code, Big Tech.

就是 brainly.com/bigtech。

That's brainly.com/bigtech.

大多数管理者都知道工作本该怎么做，但说到实际每天在不同工具、团队和交接环节中到底怎么执行，他们基本都在猜。

Most leaders know how work is supposed to happen, but when it comes to how it actually gets done day to day across tools, teams, and handoffs, they're mostly guessing.

Scribe Optimize 就是为了解决这个问题而生的。

That's exactly the problem Scribe Optimize was built to solve.

它已被超过八万家企业信赖，包括近一半的《财富》500强公司，能让你实时看清员工在哪些获批的商业软件里真正在做什么，完全不用搞访谈、手工画流程图，也不用额外增加团队负担。

Trusted by over 80,000 enterprises, including nearly half of the Fortune 500, it gives leaders a live view into how work is really happening across approved business apps without interviews, manual process mapping, or extra effort from the team.

因为它持续分析真实的工作流活动，所以洞察永远是新鲜的，哪怕流程一变，数据也不会过时。

And because it's continuously analyzing real workflow activity, the insights stay current instead of going stale the moment a process changes.

你能清楚看到哪些流程在跑、时间都花在哪、用了哪些工具。

You can see which workflows are happening, where time is going, and which tools are involved.

它会自动揪出最突出的问题，解释原因，甚至给出解决方案，还附带预计能省下多少时间。

It automatically surfaces top issues, explains why they're happening, and even recommends ways to fix them with estimated time savings.

更重要的是，它从设计之初就特别注重隐私保护。

And importantly, it's built with privacy in mind.

所以，只有管理员批准的商业应用中的活动才会被记录，用户级别的数据默认都是匿名处理的。

So activity is only captured in admin approved business apps, and user level data is anonymized by default.

以前要花几个月才能搞清楚的情况，现在随时都能看得一清二楚。

The kind of visibility that used to take months, now it's just always on.

如果你不想再猜来猜去，想真正看清现状，就去 scribe.how/bigtech 看看吧。

If you're ready to stop guessing and start seeing, visit scribe.how/bigtech.

就是 scribe.how/bigtech。

That's scribe.how/bigtech.

我们回到《大科技》播客，今天邀请到的是 Spyglass 的 M.

And we're back here on Big Technology podcast with M.

G.

G.

西格勒。

Siegler of Spyglass.

你可以在 spyglass.org 找到他们。

You could find it at spyglass.org.

强烈推荐。

Highly recommend.

你去瞧瞧，顺便订阅一下他们的通讯。

You go check it out and sign up for the newsletter.

我最爱读的之一。

One of my favorite reads.

M。

M.

G，咱们聊聊那个条款吧。

G, let's talk a little bit about the clause.

对吧？

Right?

微软和OpenAI的合作一直挺特别、挺诡异的，尤其是合同里有一条：如果OpenAI真搞出了通用人工智能，微软就立马失去所有技术权益。

So Microsoft and OpenAI famously have had very interesting and weird iterations of their tie up, including this one clause in the contract that if OpenAI sort of reached AGI, Microsoft lost all rights to its technology after that.

上周呢，微软和OpenAI达成了新协议：首先，OpenAI可以跟任何云服务商合作，结果立马就跑去宣布跟AWS合作了。

And last week, basically what happened was Microsoft and OpenAI came to this agreement where, first of all, OpenAI could work with any cloud provider and then it immediately ran and announced this deal with AWS.

所以现在亚马逊云的客户也能用上了，我估计，根据我和谷歌云负责人托马斯·库里安的交流，谷歌那边很快也会上线。

So it's now available on on Amazon for Amazon cloud customers, and I anticipate, and, you know, given my conversations that I've had with Thomas Curian, the head of Google Cloud Platform, that it will come to Google fairly soon as well.

他可盼着呢。

He wants it there.

没错。

Yep.

这是第一点。

So that's one.

但更奇怪的第二点是，那个关于AGI的条款，现在没了。

But then the second and the maybe the weirder thing was this AGI clause, is now gone.

微软现在能一直用到2032年，这就是目前双方合作的现状。

And, basically, Microsoft has access to OpenAI's IP till 2032, and that is the state of the partnership today.

是不是太简单了？我觉得微软其实早就对和OpenAI合作有点烦了，手握这么大股份，干脆觉得两家离得越远越好，但又希望OpenAI能做大做强——毕竟自己投了这么多钱，那就随便你跟谁合作吧。

Is it is is it too simple to read this as, Microsoft has been kind of annoyed working with OpenAI and has this huge stake in the company, realized that two companies would basically be better as far apart as they could be, and meanwhile, wants OpenAI to grow because it has such a large stake in the company that it says, go ahead and work with anybody.

你们对Azure的贡献，没我们当初想的那么大。

You're not helping our Azure business as much as we thought you would.

所以我们更希望你赶紧走远点，越壮大越好，我们就只管收钱。

And so we'd rather just you kinda get out of here, be be as big as you can, and we'll just take the money.

不对。

Nope.

我觉得这么理解一点儿都不简单。

Not too simple to read it that way.

我也是这么看的。

I I think that's the way I read it.

我的意思是，这事儿挺有意思的。

I mean, this is fun.

一直盯着这场大戏看，整个过程特别带劲，尤其是他们还老说这事儿根本没什么。

It's just following this whole drama and the saga has been fun, especially because they keep insisting that there's, you know, nothing to this.

老说一切都很完美，时不时还发一张萨姆和萨提亚的合照刷个存在感。

Like, everything is great and, you know, we'll get the Sam and Satya picture tweeted out every once in a while.

但到这会儿，各种爆料都够多了。

But, obviously, at this point, like, there's been enough reports.

这些奇怪的交易已经够多了。

There's been enough just of these weird deals.

这次新协议的更新，距离上一次大动干戈的修订才过了六个月，那次改得可真够多的，就是为了帮OpenAI铺平道路，最终变成一家公益型公司，还能有真正的股东。

The fact that this deal, this new this new update to their agreement, is happening six months after the last one, which was this massive undertaking, right, in in with a lot of changes made so that OpenAI could clear the path to eventually become, you know, the public benefit corporation and get actual equity holders in the company.

当然，这也能为他们将来上市铺路，他们现在显然还在朝这个目标努力。

And that, of course, would pave the way for them to eventually go public, which they're obviously still working towards.

但有意思的是，AGI条款在那次谈判里压根没被删掉，对吧？

But the fact that the AGI clause didn't go away in those negotiations was interesting, right?

他们只是改了改，没直接砍掉。

Like, they tweaked it, but they didn't kill it outright.

可以想象，这肯定让微软很不爽，毕竟到头来，头顶上还是悬着这么个怪东西——以前，如果我没记错的话，OpenAI董事会只要一宣布AGI，就能直接毁掉这笔交易，彻底跟微软断了关系，想干嘛就干嘛。

And presumably, that still annoyed Microsoft because at the end of the day, they still had this weird thing hanging over their heads where even though they tweaked it to the point where previously, if I have it right, the OpenAI board could have announced AGI and just torpedoed the deal, basically ended the relationship with Microsoft and they were able to do whatever they wanted.

所以他们之前握着单方面否决这笔交易的权力。

And so they had this unilateral power over the deal.

上一轮谈判里，微软好不容易把这权力给拿掉了，可这玩意儿居然还在。

So Microsoft did away with that in the last go around of those negotiations, but it's still there.

他们只是得勉强达成一致。

They just had to sort of co agree.

所以看起来这相当于实际上废除了这条款，对吧？

And so it seemed like a de facto going away of it, right?

微软根本就不会同意他们摆脱商业上的义务，对吧？

Like, was Microsoft never going to agree to let them go away from their obligations from a business perspective?

大概不会。

Probably not.

但现在清楚多了。

But now it's much cleaner.

现在AGI条款彻底没了。

Now there's no more AGI clause.

我不记得我写这篇文章时是怎么想的，当时也不确定这背后有没有深意——也许OpenAI觉得AGI会来得更快，或者更慢？

I don't know when I wrote about this, I didn't know if to read into that, if there was anything to read into it, this is the notion that maybe OpenAI thought it was coming sooner or thought it was coming later, right?

他们觉得现在可以这么做了，因为根本不在乎了。

Like that they felt like that they could do this now because they didn't care.

不过说到底，我觉得这事儿根本不重要。

But ultimately, I'm not sure that that matters at all.

真正关键的只有一点：他们敲定了和亚马逊的合作，而且是他们真心想做的合作。

I think that all that matters is they had a deal that they wanted to do with Amazon.

之前大家都知道他们拿到了亚马逊的巨额投资，这件事我们之前也聊过。

They had famously taken a huge investment from Amazon, which we had talked about previously.

微软当时差点就起诉了

Microsoft almost sued

对，是这样。

them Right.

之所以会这样，是因为

For it because

当时微软都打算起诉他们了，而且这个问题会扯到各种定义上，比如有状态模型和无状态模型的区别，反正就是要深究他们在法律层面到底能做什么，会特别麻烦。

They were going to sue them and because it was a question of the definition of, you know, like state state versus stateless models or, you know, getting into the weeds of of what the what they could legally do.

所以这事要是拖下去，往后肯定又得头疼，又是一场硬仗。

And so that was obviously going to be another headache and battle going forward.

同时，我觉得OpenAI之所以能有这么惊人的增长，很大程度上是因为Anthropic能通过亚马逊、谷歌，现在还有微软来销售他们的模型，对吧？

And at the same time, OpenAI, I think that there's a very real case to be made that part of the reason why Anthropic has seen the sort of incredible surge by all accounts that they've been seeing is because they have this path where they can sell their models via Amazon and via Google, right, and now via Microsoft as well.

所以他们有更大的自由空间，因为所有主要的云服务商都能成为他们的销售渠道，而OpenAI却只能靠微软这一条路。

And so they have a much more greenfield opportunity because they have all of the major cloud providers that they could sell on, whereas OpenAI was restricted in that they could only really do it through Microsoft.

所以我觉得萨提亚和萨姆两人坐下来，达成了一个相对简单的协议——去掉AGI条款，让我们能自由部署自己的模型。

And so I think that the two sides, it sounds like Satya and Sam, got together and basically hashed out a simple, at least relatively speaking, more simple agreement, get rid of the AGI clause and allow us to run our models anywhere.

另外，让我觉得最有趣的是，虽然微软不再需要向OpenAI分润收入，但OpenAI还得继续向微软付钱，哪怕他们用的是AWS，或者将来用谷歌云也一样。

Oh, and by the way, the most interesting thing to me about this entire announcement was while Microsoft no longer has to pay revenue share back to OpenAI, OpenAI still has to pay it to Microsoft and they have to pay it even when they're using AWS or potentially Google in the future.

除了你提到的微软靠持股获益这一点——他们当然希望OpenAI越壮大越好，这样他们的股份价值也越高——但更重要的是，微软还能从自己最大的云竞争对手身上赚钱，这无疑让合作更顺了，我觉得。

And so beyond what your point about Microsoft being incentivized with the you know, with their equity holding, which obviously they care about and want that to be as big of a company as possible so that their percentage of that big company is bigger, the fact that they're going be making more and more money off of their chief rivals in the cloud potentially obviously help grease those wheels and make that happen, I feel like.

对微软来说，什么更重要？

What's more valuable to Microsoft?

说实话很难说准，但让OpenAI增长50%，你的25%股份跟着涨，这价值有多大？

I mean, it's hard to know exactly, but having OpenAI grow, let's say, 50% bigger and having your 25% stake, you know, you know, grow in that in that same nature.

或者你更相信——因为你在最近的文章里提过，OpenAI的模型才是最强的。

Or if you believe because I think in your recent pieces, you've stated OpenAI has the best models.

从已经发布的模型来看，GPT-5.5 现在确实是市场上最强的。

It certainly seems like, in terms of released models, GPT 5.5 is the best on the market right now.

对。

Mhmm.

我觉得，从微软的角度来说，要是只有在 Azure 上才能用上这些模型，那就算对 OpenAI 有点限制，也值了。

I think, you know, maybe being the only place making Azure the only place you can get those models is so is just even if it I mean, I'm thinking from a Microsoft standpoint.

就算 Sam 再让人头疼，让他跑去跟亚马逊合作，这代价也太大了，真舍不得放。

Even if it hampers OpenAI a bit, it's almost like no matter how annoying Sam might be to you, like, going and working with Amazon, that is a tough thing to give up.

这种独家合作，真不是说放弃就能放弃的。

That exclusivity is a tough thing to give up.

我明白微软可能心里想：‘算了，你们爱去哪儿去哪儿吧’，从情绪上能理解。

And while I can understand how, like, you know, physiologically the Microsoft might have been, like, kind of, like, to hell with it, go do what you want.

但我还是觉得，让 OpenAI 去哪儿都行，这步棋可能有点冒险。

I still kind of think that it might be a mistake to let OpenAI go everywhere.

这其实也印证了我那篇文章里说的，那个条款取消之后，其实还有个没被重视的潜在条款，我念一段给你听。

So and this speaks to, you know, the point of my piece writing about the the end of the clause is that there's another potential clause in here, which I think was downplayed a little bit in that, and I could just read this part of it.

对。

Yep.

微软仍然是OpenAI的主要云合作伙伴，除非微软无法或不愿提供所需功能，否则OpenAI的产品都会优先在Azure上发布。

Microsoft remains OpenAI's primary cloud partner, and OpenAI products will ship first on Azure unless Microsoft cannot and chooses not to support the necessary capabilities.

所以在我看来，这一点非常关键。

So to me, that's that and is very important.

对吧？

Right?

因为这明显是经过精心措辞的，你得相信，这种话肯定有大批律师反复推敲过。

Because it's basically saying, assuming that they worded this, like, in very direct very deliberately in this way, which you have to believe that many lawyers port over poured over such a statement.

这是博客文章里的一段话。

This was a statement in the blog post.

也可能是Copilot。

Or it may be Copilot.

还有几个Copilot。

And A couple of Copilot.

说不定是Copilot胡编了整个协议呢。

Maybe Copilot hallucinated the entire thing, the agreement.

但要是这话当真，那意思就是微软对OpenAI推出的任何新模型和新功能，依然拥有优先使用权。

But if this is to be believed, it's basically that Microsoft still has a right of first refusal on these new models and new capabilities that OpenAI puts out there.

比如说，当他们第一次推出GPT 5.5的时候，可能就会说：嘿，我们想让这个功能在Azure上独家上线一段时间。

So say, you know, when they roll out GPT 5.5 for the first time, there might be a world in which they could say like, hey, we wanted this to be exclusive on Azure for a set period of time.

我真想知道这些条款到底长什么样，他们要是真有这权利，能独占多久啊。

I'd love to know what those terms look like, how long they could actually keep such exclusivity if they're allowed to.

也可能就是说，只要OpenAI推出新产品，就得先在Azure上架。

Could be something like And if they roll out a new product, if OpenAI rolls out a new product, they have to offer it first on Azure as well.

而OpenAI在这种情况下唯一的出路，还是那句话——除非微软撑不住，或者压根不想支持。

And it's basically OpenAI's only out in that situation is, again, if Microsoft cannot support whatever it is or they choose not to.

根本不是说‘哎，你们Azure缺X、Y、Z这些功能，所以我们只好上AWS了’这种理由。

So it's not even the fact that they would say like, yeah, but you guys don't have X, Y, and Z capabilities in Azure, and so therefore we're going to roll this out on AWS.

也不是说‘我们干脆上Google Cloud算了’。

We're going to roll this out on Google Cloud.

微软必须明确说：我们不会推出这个X、Y、Z功能。

They have to Microsoft has to explicitly say, we will not roll out whatever X, Y, and Z is.

谁知道呢，万一真走到那一步，比如OpenAI和亚马逊搞出个超牛的新产品，说只能在AWS上跑，微软肯定又炸了，心想：你们瞧瞧。

Now who knows, you know, if they ever get to that point, but you could see a world in which, you know, say OpenAI and Amazon come up with some new amazing product offering that they're saying is only available, only able to be done on AWS and Microsoft getting again mad because they would say, like, well, look.

这功能我们Azure也能做啊。

We can roll that out on Azure too.

我不同意你们说这玩意儿只能独家上AWS。

Like, so I don't I don't agree with your your ability to roll this out exclusively on AWS.

这事迟早还得再闹一回。

You know this is gonna come up again.

这事儿肯定没完，各方之间的矛盾也不会就此收场。

Like, there's no way this is the end of this of this conversation and the end of, like, the animosity between all the parties here.

你说得对，Mike，微软居然允许OpenAI——现在都占了它25%、27%股份的大股东——去跟自家死对头、全球最大的云服务商合作，这事儿本身就够离谱的。

Like, because to your point, Mike, the fact that Microsoft is is okaying OpenAI, their 25, 27, whatever it is now, percent holder, you know, giant equity portion of the company working with their chief rival, the biggest cloud provider in the world, is is sort of incredible.

所以很明显，这种矛盾还会反复出现，但接下来还会有新的条款要谈。

And so, obviously, this is still going to come up time and time again, but there's there's new clauses to be to be had here.

好像只要谁说‘没有我们就没有OpenAI’，就会对OpenAI特别恼火，不管是马斯克、微软，还是别的谁。

It seems like anybody who can say the sentence OpenAI would not exist without us tends to get very annoyed at OpenAI, whether it's Elon or Microsoft or Yep.

不管是谁吧。

Whatever it might be.

没错。

Yep.

这事儿永远没完。

It's never gonna end.

而且这事儿啊，确实。

And this is yeah.

他们一谈合作，就像你说的，肯定要跟谷歌搞在一起。

This whole when they do a deal, to your point, they're obviously gonna do a deal with Google.

迟早会用上GCP的。

They're gonna be in GCP at some point.

你提到的这点挺有意思，关于Azure和微软的打算。

And then it sort of becomes you bring up an interesting point around Azure and Microsoft's game plan.

以前呢，亚马逊确实是这么玩的，但现在大家都这么干了，每个云服务商都想把所有模型都上架。

Historically, I think Amazon has more run the game plan, but now to the point that all the clouds are doing it, they all want to offer all the models.

对吧？

Right?

他们都说：我们希望客户想用哪个模型就用哪个。

They're saying like, We want the customer to choose whatever model they want.

我们当然希望他们在我们的云上跑，但模型你随便挑。

We want them to be operating on our cloud, but we want them to choose.

管它是自家的模型呢，还是别的公司的。

We don't care if it's our own model.

不管是OpenAI的，还是Anthropic的，都没关系。

We don't care if it's an OpenAI model, if it's an Anthropic model.

现在有了OpenAI这个新开放政策，各家基本上都能提供所有主流模型了。

So they're reaching to the point now with OpenAI's new unlock that they'll all be able to offer basically all of the models.

至于微软，有了这些新推出的较小规模的模型，他们或许能说：你还是选Azure吧，就算别的云也能跑其他公司的模型，但我们能第一时间拿到OpenAI最新的模型。

And Microsoft, I guess, with this with these newer smaller clauses might be able to say, you should pick Azure because even if you can run all of the other players, you know, models on the other clouds, we're going to get the first look at the new the latest OpenAI models.

这可能足以让一些公司决定：你还是可以选Claude，如果你愿意的话。

And maybe that's enough to sway some companies, you know, to go you can still choose Claude if you want.

你还是可以选别的，不一定非得选Gemini，但像DeepSeek这些其他模型，你照样能选。

You can still choose maybe not Gemini, but you can still choose something else, some of these other models, DeepSeek and whatnot, if you want.

即使我们不是全程独占，至少我们还能抢先体验。

But we're going to have the first look advantage still, even if we don't have the exclusivity full time.

这就跟电影的窗口期差不多。

It's almost like movie windowing.

我们正踏入一个挺奇怪的新世界。

It's a weird new world we're entering.

现在影院里上映的是GPT 5.5，接下来才轮到GVD和谷歌。

Now in theaters, GPT 5.5 before comes to GVD on to Google.

AWS在四月初就上了。

AWS in, in early April.

天哪。

And Oh my goodness.

是的。

Yeah.

不是。

No.

这话有道理。

There is there's truth to that.

好吧。

Alright.

我 definitely 想好好讲讲这个 Stargate 的事，因为这属于那种大新闻——你还记得吧，OpenAI 当初宣布要砸五千亿美金建 AI 基础设施。

I I definitely wanna cover this Stargate story, because it's one of those big stories where, if folks, if you recall, OpenAI announced this $500,000,000,000 build out of AI infrastructure.

马斯克当时就说了，他们根本没这么多钱。

Elon Musk famously said they don't have the money.

后来有报道说，什么 Stargate 公司根本没成立，Stargate 本身也没真启动，现在这词儿倒成了大家对 OpenAI 所有基建的统称。

And then Stargate there were reports that, like, oh, the Stargate company never formed, and Stargate itself didn't didn't, you know, get started, and now Stargate is kind of this, like, catch all word encapsulating all of OpenAI's infrastructure.

MGI，你觉得我这说法靠谱吗？

And MGI, you know, let me know if you think this is this makes sense.

这其实很好地反映了OpenAI整体的基础设施策略，因为大家原本以为OpenAI会自己大力建设数据中心，但实际上他们转而直接租用或合作现有的数据中心。

This is, like, a good window into OpenAI's infrastructure as a whole because I think the conventional wisdom that OpenAI was gonna go out and build a lot of its own infrastructure, and actually it's shifted to OpenAI has secured those data centers as opposed to building those data centers.

整个过程其实悄无声息，一开始的新闻闹得挺大，确实吸引了不少关注，但之后发生的事，根本没人提了。

And this has kind of happened in a really quiet way that, the headlines in the beginning were very loud and, you know, obviously got a lot of attention, but what's happened afterwards, certainly has not.

那你来讲讲这个故事吧。

So take us into that story.

是的。

Yeah.

当时闹得特别大，你还记得吗？那正是特朗普重返白宫的第一天。

And it got loud to the point where, remember, this was president Trump's first day back in office.

他找的是马斯克，抱歉，我说错了。

He has Elon Musk sorry.

不是马斯克。

Not Elon Musk.

根本就和马斯克没关系。

Famously not Elon Musk there.

尽管他是新政府里Doge派系的一员。

Even though he's a part of the new Doge part of the whole administration.

但他本人没在场，同去的是萨姆·阿尔特曼、埃隆的劲敌马萨森，还有拉里·埃里森。

He is not there, but there with him is Sam Altman, Elon's big rival, Massasan, and Larry Ellison.

这三个人陪着特朗普总统在白宫宣布了‘Stargate’项目，计划投入五千亿美金——那可是个天大的手笔。

So the three of them are there alongside President Trump in the White House announcing the Stargate, Project Stargate, which was going to be a $500,000,000,000 which, you know, was a massive deal.

现在回头看这些数字，感觉有点过时了，毕竟这些公司的估值都涨到哪儿去了，但当时这确实是史上最大的基础设施项目之一。

It looks sort of quaint almost now when you when you talk about these numbers given where these companies are valued at, but it was a massive infrastructure deal.

显然，这对特朗普政府来说是个巨大的政治胜利。

And obviously, it was a big win for the Trump administration.

我们也可以争论，这些项目可能早就谈好了，只是重新包装了一下，但这类操作在这些官宣里早就见怪不怪了。

We could argue that a lot of these deals were maybe already in place and maybe they were repurposing things and and whatnot, but that's sort of par for the course, it seems like, with some of these announcements.

但不管怎么说，这确实是个绝佳的公关时刻，对这些公司来说也是风光无限，看起来甚至像是美国的一次重大突破。

But still, regardless, it was a great PR moment and a great moment for all these companies, and it looked like a great moment, you know, potentially for America.

我们本以为将迎来一个由顶级企业联手、政府全力支持的超级AI计划。

We were going have this huge, huge new AI initiative backed by these major companies and including obviously the government.

然后接下来的一年里，第一个Stargate项目就落地了，地点在德克萨斯州的阿比林，建个数据中心——顺便说一句，这地方本来压根不是冲着Stargate去的。

And so fast forward over the next year, it basically went into place that the first Stargate, which was going to be in data center in Abilene, Texas, which, by the way, did not start out as a Stargate project.

它最初挺奇怪的，居然是马斯克的一个项目，由甲骨文在操办。

It started out oddly as an Elon Musk project that Oracle was building.

一堆公司都在参与建设。

A whole range of people were building.

蓝资本也掺和进来了。

Blue Capital is involved with it.

还有好多其他玩家都在里头。

A lot of other players are involved with it.

但最终，OpenAI拉着甲骨文，把这项目改成了第一个Stargate，打算就这么往下推进。

But basically, OpenAI was able to bring this in with Oracle to make it now the first Stargate, and it was going to go from there.

可再过一年，各种风声就来了，说合作黄了、项目搁浅了，根本没按当初说的那样上线。

But fast forward again over the next year, there were just a lot of weird reports about deals getting backed out of and nothing sort of coming online in the way that they had hoped.

他们之前不是说5000亿美元吗？其中1000亿一上来就砸下去了，摆明了要大干一场。

They again had talked about of the 500,000,000,000, 100,000,000,000 was committed right out of the gates and they were going to come out swinging.

而且again，进展真的特别慢。

And again, it was just really slow going.

后来的报道说，可能咱们压根儿就不打算用这个设施了，软银也很难筹到启动这个项目所需的贷款。

And the subsequent reports had it that like, yeah, well, maybe we're not going to use this facility and maybe SoftBank was having a hard time raising the debt needed to get this facility off the ground.

说不定甲骨文自己也搞不定融资，没法把项目推下去。

Maybe Oracle was having a hard time raising the debt needed to get out.

对了，顺便说一句，甲骨文和OpenAI都打算退出这个项目了，就是阿比林站点的扩建部分。

Oh, by the way, Oracle and OpenAI are backing out of this facility, the extension of the Abilene site.

那谁来接手呢？

And who's coming in?

居然是微软，挺奇怪的。

Microsoft, oddly.

所以这一连串稀奇古怪的事儿全凑一块儿了。

And so all of these weird things going on.

不过你说得对，对我来说，这些事儿恰恰完美地体现了OpenAI在这段时间里的转变。

But you're exactly right that to me, this basically encapsulates the change that OpenAI has made over that time.

我觉得这里面还有一些边边角角但相关的动向，比如英伟达那笔大交易，也很有意思，对吧？

And I think that there's other plays in here which are sort of tangential but related, including the big deal with NVIDIA, which is another interesting deal, right?

我们之前聊过，英伟达当时高调宣布，由黄仁勋、格雷格·布罗克曼和萨姆·阿尔特曼一起，承诺在未来一段时间内向OpenAI投资一千亿美元。

We had talked about it previously where NVIDIA announced with much pomp and circumstance with Jensen and Greg Brockman and Sam Altman that they were going to invest $100,000,000,000 into OpenAI over an extended period of time.

结果呢，这事儿突然就悄无声息地没了影儿。

And then all of a sudden, that quietly went away.

那这笔交易的关键到底是什么？

Well, what was a big part of that deal?

关键就在于，得为OpenAI继续扩建数据中心筹到足够的资金。

A big part of that deal was clearly in order to secure the debt required for OpenAI to continue these build outs.

自从Stargate项目公布以来，OpenAI在好几篇博客里都提到，他们得想出一些新颖又神秘的新办法来为这些数据中心融资。

OpenAI has been talking about in various blog posts over the time span since Stargate came out that they needed to come up with interesting and mysterious new ways of doing capital financing for these data center build outs.

没错，你说得特别准，他们当时的想法就是觉得这些设施得自己掌控。

And yes, to your exact point, the thought process seemed to be that they felt like they needed to own these.

他们没打算拥有Abilene那个场地，因为那块儿早就已经安排好了。

They weren't going to own the Abilene site because that was already sort of, again, backed into that was already in place.

但往后，他们想掌控更多这些设施。

But going forward, they wanted to own a lot of these.

在我看来，这分明说明他们意识到真正的威胁其实是谷歌。

And to me, that just read like they realized that their real threat was Google.

谷歌嘛，大家都知道，自家的数据中心、所有基础设施全都是自己的。

Google, of course, famously owns, you know, their data centers and owns all of the infrastructure that they need.

那OpenAI怎么跟人家竞争呢？

And so how is OpenAI going be able to compete with that?

作为一个亏钱亏到飞起的初创公司，他们根本没法筹到建这些设施所需的巨额贷款。

Well, they couldn't, as a massively money losing startup, be able to raise the debt needed in order to build out these facilities.

所以他们先后跟甲骨文、软银，最后跟英伟达合作。

And so they were partnering with Oracle, with SoftBank, eventually with NVIDIA.

但这些合作呢，最后都不同程度地退了回来。

But again, all of these sort of came back and were pulled back to varying degrees.

现在看来，整个叙事已经彻底转向了。

And now the narrative, it seems like, has shifted fully.

我之前写过这个问题，因为这件事的弦外之音其实很好懂：他们的叙事彻底变了。原本的计划是由「星门计划」牵头为OpenAI搭建这套庞大的基础设施，但现在方向变了——变成各家公司各自想办法搭建自己的基础设施，最后再把这些项目都并入星门计划，让「星门」变成一个笼统的统称。就像你刚才说的，现在事态确实就是这么发展的。

And I've written about this because it felt like that was an easy thing to read in between the lines of that they were changing that narrative, that it was no longer going to be Project Stargate building up these massive infrastructure for OpenAI, whereas it's going to be now, we're going to figure out how to build up this massive infrastructure individually, all these companies, and maybe we'll rope them into Stargate and Stargate will just be the catchall term exactly And as you laid now that seems to be the world.

还有一层我得补充一下，整件事的诡异之处和OpenAI公关策略的转向脱不开关系：他们现在发的博客文章特别离谱，简直是在颠倒黑白，一口咬定说「大家都知道，我们从最开始就说好了，事情本来就该这么发展」。

And the only thing I would say the other layer of this is the weirdness is related to sort of the evolving PR strategy of OpenAI, where they now write blog posts that are sort of gas light y in the way that they're basically saying like, Yeah, as you know, we announced this as It was always going to be the plan that this was sort of going to play out this way.

但事实根本不是这样。

And that's just not the case.

你去翻他们以前的博客就知道，当初星门计划的初始方案，和他们现在对外说的完全不是一回事。

Like, if you look at those old blog posts, they were not laid out in the way that they're currently laying out the current Stargate initiative.

而且这个收缩的情况从Stargate项目的调整上也能看出来，不光是美国，英国还有全球各地都是这样。

And you see it in the in the pullback again of Stargate, not just in The US either, in The UK and all around the world.

他们本来都规划了这些布局项目的。

Like, they have these initiatives.

所有这些动作背后显然都和一个需求挂钩：如果OpenAI真的打算上市，那它就得先把开支给控住。

And it's all tied to it seems like it's all tied to, obviously, the need for them to corral spending a little bit if and when they're gonna really try to go public.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得有一点很重要，就是这个新策略把所有风险都转嫁给了合作伙伴。

I mean, one thing I'll say is that this new strategy also shifts all the risk to, like, the partners

没错。

Yes.

通过那些Oracle、NVIDIA，还有像Nebius、CoreWeave这样的新兴云服务商。

Through the Oracles and Nvidia's and a lot of the neo clouds that kind of exist, like the Nebius and the core weaves.

我们之前请过CoreWeave来节目，他们讲自己业务的时候，我觉得特别清楚。

I mean, we had core weave on, and the one thing I couldn't you know, I thought they did a great job explaining their business when they were here on the show.

而且很明显，他们上完节目后股价直接涨了12%。

And obviously, think their stock popped like 12% after their appearance.

所以啊，想火就赶紧上大科技播客。

So folks put your put your people on big technology podcast.

但整个故事最大的问题在于，你们的生意全靠OpenAI真能把基础设施建起来这个承诺撑着。

But but I I think the the weakness in the whole story is, your whole business is based off of OpenAI keeping this promise of building out the infrastructure.

尤其是上周，《华尔街日报》那篇报道出来后，OpenAI急着否认，CFO莎拉·弗莱尔直接说：如果我们赚不到更多钱，就别想建新数据中心。

And last week in particular, when there was that Wall Street Journal report, which OpenAI pushed back on very, strongly that, like, Sarah Fryer, the CFO, was like, if we don't make more money, we're not gonna build more data centers.

这在那些新云服务商和合作伙伴中间引起了不小的震动。

That caused a real reaction in in these these partners in the neo clouds.

整个圈子都受到了不小的冲击。

The the whole wave of them got hit pretty hard.

如果你想找这个AI故事里真正的风险点或薄弱环节，我觉得就在这儿。

And that's that is like if you're looking for areas of risk or weakness in this whole AI story, that's the place I would look.

对。

Yeah.

往后看，问题又回来了：他们是想回到以前的策略，就是那种觉得得跟谷歌抗衡的思路？

And and going forward, the the question is going back to their old strategy or what seemed to be their old strategy where they felt like maybe they had to combat Google, right?

而谷歌可是掌控着底层基础设施的。

And Google again owns the infrastructure.

那你到底为啥非得自己搞这个？

And what's the reason why you would want it?

干脆全外包出去不好吗？

Why wouldn't you just want to offload all this?

对吧？

Right?

因为这事儿太理想了。

Because it'd be great.

说到底，你还是得花钱请人来做这些事，对吧？

Well, at the end of the day, like you're still like you're paying people in order to do this work, right?

如果你自己掌控全部，就像我们聊苹果那样，从硬件到软件全自研，成本优势自然就大得多。

And if you own it and control it completely, just like we talked about with Apple, owning the whole stack and whatnot, you're going to have better cost advantages over the people who don't.

所以谷歌在做所有AI相关工作上，从顶层来看，优势明显，毕竟它有庞大的基础设施，而OpenAI根本没这条件。

And so Google's in a much better position, it feels like, at the highest level of being able to do all of the AI work that they need to do because of their massive infrastructure capabilities, whereas OpenAI just doesn't have that.

再看看Anthropic现在多慌，拼命补基础设施的短板——其实OpenAI倒是个好例子，过去几个月大家总说他们像醉汉一样乱花钱，搞什么基础设施扩张，具体怎么说的我都记不清了。

And look at now what's happening even with Anthropic, where they're scrambling to ramp up on the infrastructure side, because I think OpenAI is a good point that for all the talk of the past many months that maybe, you know, I don't remember how exactly they framed it, but that OpenAI was spending like drunken sailors or whatnot, you know, like in terms of their infrastructure plans.

但好处是，他们现在真有足够算力应付需求，Anthropic就不行，感觉完全跟不上。

There was an upside to that in that they now have the capacity to meet the demands, whereas Anthropic, it feels like does not.

那谷歌自己，真有这些问题吗？

So And again, does Google have those problems?

不是。

No.

微软呢？所有云服务商都说自己产能受限，某种程度上确实如此，对吧？

Does Microsoft I mean, all the cloud providers are saying that they're capacity constrained and they are to certain degrees, right?

归根结底，还是靠芯片和电力。

Because it comes down to ultimately chips and or power.

但如果我们相信，这些问题最终都会解决，那谷歌从底层到上层全自研的架构，未来在成本上会远远压过OpenAI。

But still, if we believe that we're going to get to a world where those issues are eventually resolved, Google's just overall owning of, again, that entire stack when it comes to the infrastructure is going to give them massive cost advantages over what OpenAI is going to be able to offer up at that steady state.

我们现在还没到那个阶段。

We're not in that steady state right now.

所以眼下这些问题被掩盖了，但他们为啥非得往那儿走，你懂的？

And so it's sort of masked a little bit, but there's a reason why they wanted to get there, right?

等未来这些巨型云平台越来越成熟，OpenAI还能在成本上跟谷歌、微软、亚马逊这些巨头抗衡吗？

Are they gonna be able to compete on a on a cost basis with with the Googles of the world and, you know, increasingly the Microsofts, Amazons of the world as we go forward with these massive clouds?

说到底，问题就在这儿。

And so that's what it comes down to.

没错，就是这样。

And that's gonna be Yep.

但那至少得是几年后的事了，感觉上是这样。

But that's like that's a few years down the road, it feels like.

对吧？

Right?

到那时候，OpenAI 可能已经上市了。

And maybe OpenAI is public already by then.

也许到那时他们能熬过难关，毕竟现在是上市公司了。

Maybe they get in a situation where it ends up playing out okay from them because they're now a public company.

他们能更好地控制开支，集中精力。

They were able to corral spending a bit, focus.

我这可是给他们描绘了一个理想场景：他们能用各种金融工具融资，发债什么的，自己建基础设施。

I'm laying out a good case scenario for them, they're able to sort of use different monetary instruments to raise what they need, to raise debt and whatnot, to build out their own infrastructure.

而且因为技术一直在变，也许他们不在阿比林控制基础设施，也没那么要紧。

And because of the way that the things are constantly evolving, maybe it doesn't matter so much that they don't control the infrastructure at Abilene.

其实你能不能控制住前几个星门，也没那么重要。

And it doesn't matter so much that you control, you know, the first few Stargates.

关键在于未来的星门，那些才用的是最新芯片，推理能力更强，能干更多活儿，等等。

So what matters is the Stargates going forward because those are the ones with the the latest chips and the the better inference and able to do the better inference and and whatnot.

所以理论上他们能做到，但问题是，从A到B得砸进去太多钱了，这恐怕会是未来几年，至少两三年里的主旋律。

And so there's a world, I guess, that they can do that, but still, it's gonna be there's gonna be so much money needed to get from a to b where that's gonna be the story of the next, you know, couple years, few years at least.

没错。

Most definitely.

这一小时过得也太快了吧。

This hour went by extremely fast.

我们本来还说要不要聊聊马斯克和奥特曼的审判，但我想你六月来的时候，说不定已经出判决了，到时候再聊更合适。

We I've we were talking about potentially covering the Musk Altman trial, but I think when you're on in June, we'll actually maybe have a verdict to discuss.

那咱们就先搁到六月再说。

So we'll leave it till June.

咱们还是聊聊那些变化飞快的事儿吧。

Think about talk about things that are moving fast.

这事儿在这期间得变十回不止。

Like, that's gonna change 10 times in between now and then.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

那我们到时候留意一下。

So we'll keep an eye out on that.

这事儿肯定挺有意思的。

That'll be interesting.

另外，大家一定要去 spyglass.org 看看 Spyglass 这个项目。

And and again, folks, definitely recommend you go check out Spyglass at spyglass.org.

嗯。

M.

很高兴再次见到你。

G, great to see you again.

谢谢你能来。

Thanks for coming on.

谢谢你，亚历克斯。

Thank you, Alex.

好了，各位。

Alright, everybody.

非常感谢大家收听和观看，我们下次再见，欢迎继续锁定《大科技》播客。

Thank you so much for listening and watching, and we'll see you next time on Big Technology Podcast.