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AI应该在多大程度上决定你在YouTube上看什么，以及决定像我这样的人创作什么内容？
How much should AI decide what you watch on YouTube and determine what people like me create?
接下来，我们就和YouTube首席执行官尼尔·莫汉聊聊这个话题。
Let's talk about it with YouTube CEO Neal Mohan right after this.
欢迎收听《大科技播客》，这是一个关于科技世界及其他领域的冷静、细致对话的节目。
Welcome to Big Technology Podcast, a show for cool-headed and nuanced conversation of the tech world and beyond.
今天我们的节目非常精彩。
We have a great show for you today.
我们将全面讨论AI对我们在YouTube上观看内容和创作内容的巨大影响，讨论这是否可取，以及YouTube今天发布的一系列新产品和功能。我们的嘉宾是YouTube首席执行官尼尔·莫汉。
We're going to talk all about AI's dramatic influence on what we watch on YouTube and what we create on YouTube, whether it's advisable, and a bunch of new products and features that YouTube is releasing today, and we're joined by the CEO of YouTube, Neal Mohan.
尼尔，很高兴见到你。
Neal, great to see you.
亚历克斯，也很高兴见到你。
Good to see you, Alex.
能来参加节目，我很高兴。
Great to be here.
所以我翻了翻以前的记录，11年前，也就是2015年，你在谷歌广告部门转到YouTube的时候，我发过一条推文，说：“尼尔·莫汉要去YouTube了，准备帮他们赚钱了。”
So I went back in the archives, and I tweeted about your move from Google's Ad division to YouTube 11 years ago in 2015, and I said, "Neal Mohan is off to YouTube, ready to make them some money."
因为你之前一直在广告那边。
Because you had been on the ad side.
结果还真成了。
It worked.
现在的YouTube，如果你还没跟上，它每年能赚600亿美元。
YouTube today, for those who are catching up, is a $60 billion annual business.
如果我说错了你可以纠正我，但Netflix是450亿，所以YouTube比Netflix大得多。
You can correct me if I'm wrong here, but Netflix is 45 billion, so dramatically bigger than Netflix.
全球用户超过20亿。
More than two billion users globally.
每年还在以13%的速度增长。
It's growing 13% a year.
它占了全美流媒体或观看时长的14%。
It accounts for 14% of all US streaming or viewing.
流媒体。
Streaming.
流媒体。
Streaming.
这意味着每天有十亿小时的YouTube内容是在电视上观看的。
And that means a billion daily hours of YouTube are watched on TV alone.
而且公司在过去四年里已经向创作者支付了1000亿美元。
And the company's paid out $100 billion to creators over the past four years.
所以当我们谈论YouTube时，它已经不仅仅是那个踩滑板的猫或狗了。
So when we talk about YouTube, it's not just the cat on the skateboard or the dog on the skateboard anymore.
这是一股媒体力量。
This is a media force.
你提到那条推文，我首先想到的是时间过得真快。
The first thing that comes to mind when you mention that tweet is time flies.
已经很久了。
It's been a long time.
YouTube确实就像你描述的那样。
And YouTube is really kind of everything that you described it to be there.
你知道，我们去年庆祝了20周年。
We've been around, as you know, we celebrated our 20th anniversary last year.
你说得对，我们一开始只是一个上传视频的平台，就像你提到的那种视频，但现在我们成了一个流媒体服务，每天有超过20亿人来这里，和数百万创作者互动。
And you're right, we're this platform that started as a place where you would upload videos like the ones that you described, and now we are a streaming service where two billion-plus people come to every single day, connecting with millions and millions of creators.
本质上，这就是YouTube的魔力。正因为每天在YouTube上展现出的这种粉丝热情，才创造了你提到的商业机会，对我们的创作者、合作伙伴，还有和YouTube合作的品牌来说都是如此。
And in an essence, that's the magic of YouTube, and as a result of all of that fandom that manifests on YouTube every day, that's what creates the business opportunities, of course, that you talked about, for our creators, for our partners, for the brands that work with YouTube.
但我觉得，可能更重要的是，它创造了一种文化现象，就是——
But also, I think probably even more importantly, creates sort of the cultural phenomenon that is-
——YouTube本身，所以这真的很令人兴奋。
... YouTube, and so that's super exciting.
对，当你想到Netflix、Spotify、Amazon Video这些公司的增长能力时，当有人问我他们最大的竞争对手是谁，答案往往是YouTube。
Yeah, and when you think about the ability of companies like Netflix to grow or Spotify to grow, Amazon Video, when I'm asked, okay, who's the big competition they're coming up against, it's often YouTube.
你可以说这是Netflix和HBO之间的较量，但实际上，是Netflix和HBO在对抗YouTube。
And you could say it's a Netflix versus HBO battle, but it's really Netflix and HBO versus YouTube.
是Spotify和Apple Podcasts，我们在那上面有很多听众，但真正的大头是在YouTube上，我觉得我们大部分听众都在那儿，这是一个很大的转变。
It's Spotify and Apple Podcasts, which we have big listenership on, but it's versus YouTube, where I would say most of our listenership is on, and that is a big shift.
但YouTube和这些传统媒体平台之间有个区别，那就是像Netflix或HBO，会有一群人负责策划，琢磨观众想要什么，然后根据节目的表现来调整。
But there's sort of a difference between YouTube and these other legacy media platforms, which is that you would have a group of people programming, thinking what the audience wants, and then adjusting based off of how the show is due for a Netflix or an HBO.
而YouTube主要是由人来驱动的，我的意思是，像我这样的创作者把视频发上去，看看分发效果，找到观众，了解观众想要什么，然后经常是加倍投入去做观众喜欢的内容。
With YouTube, it's largely people programmed, and by that I mean it's people like me and other creators putting videos out there, seeing the distribution that they get, finding an audience, seeing what the audience wants, and oftentimes doubling down on what the audience wants.
但对YouTube上的创作者来说，这很大程度上一直是一门不精确的科学。
But a lot of that has been almost an inexact science for creators on YouTube.
你听算法的，自己做些决定，然后进行策划。
You listen to the algorithm, and you make some of your own decisions, and then you program.
但现在我们看到的是，YouTube可以说是谷歌产品里AI用得最多的，AI正在进入产品，进入策划决策。
But now what we're seeing with the fact that I would say YouTube is the Google product that uses AI the most, is that AI is coming into the product, coming into the programming decisions.
所以，比如说，我们今天要聊聊你今天发布的一些产品和功能。
So, for instance, we're going to talk about some products and features that you're announcing today.
其中之一是Drafts，你可以上传一个草稿。
One of them is Drafts, where you upload a draft.
现在创作者可以在YouTube上传草稿，并获得来自YouTube AI的反馈和建议修改。
A creator can now upload a draft on YouTube and get feedback and suggested edits-
这些反馈和建议修改都来自YouTube的AI。
... that's coming in from YouTube's AI.
当你这样做时，YouTube还会推荐缩略图。
When you do that, YouTube will also suggest thumbnails.
它还会给你反馈，比如：“嘿，你的缩略图如果放两张脸，或者更像Mr. Beast那样对着镜头‘啊’一声，效果可能会更好。”
And it will give you feedback, "Hey, your thumbnail might do better if you maybe put two faces in or look more like Mr. Beast when he's like, 'Ah,' into the camera."
还会有动态缩略图。
There's also going to be dynamic thumbnails.
这些都是全新的功能。
This is all new.
动态缩略图会根据观众进行优化。
Which are going to be optimized based on the audience.
所以，可能一部分观众对某个缩略图有反应，另一部分观众对另一个缩略图有反应，YouTube会动态地向他们展示他们想看的内容。
So maybe one audience responds to one thumbnail, and then the other audience responds to another, and YouTube will dynamically show them what they want.
还有一个特别疯狂的功能，你不仅可以对标题和缩略图进行A/B测试，还可以对视频本身进行A/B测试。也就是说，创作者现在可以上传几个视频，比如其中一个带预告片——也许我们可以用这个视频试试，一个带预告片，
You could also, this is a crazy one, you can actually A/B test not just titles and thumbnails, but you can A/B test videos, which is that creators can now put up a couple of videos and maybe one with-- Maybe we'll do that with this one, where we'll do one with a trailer-
一个不带预告片，看看哪个效果更好，哪个获得更多观看时长，哪个更受算法青睐。
... one without a trailer and see what does better, see what gets more watch time and is enhanced by the algorithm.
好了，我保证马上要问问题了。
Okay, I promise I'm getting to a question.
我们到底想让AI在多大程度上决定我们在YouTube上看什么？
How much do we want to let AI program what we watch on YouTube?
因为这实际上是AI在做节目编排的决定，而不是创作者倾听观众、凭直觉来做，相比之下，这些决定应该由人类来做。
Because this is AI effectively making programming decisions as opposed to the creators listening and intuiting, versus have those programming decisions be made by humans.
亚历克斯，你这个问题问得很有意思。我觉得从宏观角度来看，我们确实大量使用AI。
It's an interesting way to frame the question, Alex, and I think what I would say kind of at the big picture level is we do use AI a lot.
我的团队里大部分人是软件工程师，我们的工作，我经常说，就是搭建世界上最好的舞台。
Most of the people that work for me are software engineers, and our job, as I always describe, is to build the world's best stage.
但站在这个舞台上的是我们出色的创作者，包括你自己，以及你在YouTube上各个频道取得的成功。
But it's our amazing creators, including yourself and all the success you've had around your channels on YouTube, that are the people that are on that stage.
这就是我希望大家记住的一个基本思路。
And that's sort of the mental model that I would ask people to sort of hold in your heads.
如果你每天在YouTube的走廊里走一圈，你会听到“创作者”、“播客”、“艺术家”这些词，一天能听到一百遍。
If you walk the halls of YouTube Every single day, you're going to hear that term creator or podcaster or artist, creators writ large, 100 times a day.
我就是在这样的背景下思考AI的，也就是如何利用最新最好的技术，我们每天和Google DeepMind这样的公司合作，让这个舞台变得更好。
And the way that I think about AI is in that context, which is how can we use the latest and greatest technology, we work with companies like Google DeepMind every single day to make that stage even better.
所以关键就是做YouTube该做的事，帮助创作者建立观众群，然后建立业务，但要做得更高效、更快。
And so it's really about doing what YouTube does, helping creators build an audience and then build a business, but to do it more efficiently and do it faster.
所以你刚才提到的很多功能和产品，包括一些我们即将在Made on YouTube上讨论的新鲜出炉的东西，都是由AI驱动的，但它们做的事情都是创作者业务的核心。
And so a lot of those features and products that you just described, including some of them kind of hot off the press that we're going to talk about at Made on YouTube, are powered by AI, but they're doing things that are core to the creator business.
比如动态缩略图。
So dynamic thumbnails.
为什么不给创作者提供能力，让他们根据不同的观众群体，为视频设置多个缩略图呢？
Why not actually give creators the ability to have multiple thumbnails associated with their video depending on who the audience is?
A/B测试，对吧？
A/B testing, right?
这个概念已经存在一段时间了。
That's a concept that's existed for a while.
为什么不让人工智能把这个能力交到每个创作者手里呢？
Why not allow AI to put that in the hands of every single creator?
这些都是靠我们对人工智能的投资实现的，比如用Gemini，还有我们的创作工具，比如在YouTube上点加号就能创建视频。
And those are all powered by our investment in AI using Gemini, our creation tools like actually being able to hit the plus button on YouTube and creating videos.
这背后用的是像Omni这样的模型。
That's powered by models like Omni.
但这一切都是为了人类的创造力，比如创作者想实现他们的创意想法，还有他们的商业想法。
But it's all in the service of human creativity, like what creators are looking to do around their creative ideas, but then also around their business ideas.
这就是你应该有的思维方式。
And that's the mental model that you should have.
回到YouTube上人工智能的核心应用，就是当你打开电视屏幕上的应用时，你看到的那些推荐，它们之所以对你这个观众来说这么相关、这么有用，是因为我们对人工智能的投资。
Going back to sort of the core AI use in YouTube, which is when you open up the app on the television screen, those recommendations that you get, the reason why they are so relevant and useful to you as a viewer is because of our investment in AI.
所以，我觉得你应该这样看待我们对这项技术的态度：它是用来赋能人类创造力、让那几十亿粉丝更贴近他们最喜欢的创作者的。
And so that's really the way that I think you should think about our approach to the technology as a tool to empower human creativity and to bring those billions of fans that I described much more close to their favorite creators.
顺便说一句，我觉得没有任何平台能做到YouTube这样，因为你们拥有的AI水平实在太高了。
By the way, I don't think any platform can do what YouTube is doing just because of the level of AI you have access to.
所以这相对于我之前提到的那些竞争对手来说，确实是一个真正的优势。
So it's a real advantage over the competitors that I mentioned earlier.
但接下来我想回到那个问题，就是你到底想让AI做多少决定。
But then I just want to go back to this notion of how much do you want to let the AI decide.
因为你想啊，这其实某种程度上就是艺术。
Because if you think about it, this is the arts in a way.
这就是艺术正在转变的地方。
This is where the arts are shifting.
一直以来，艺术都有一种元素，就是先把东西扔出去看看效果——也许不是所有人都喜欢，但你把它放出去，随着时间推移，它就成了艺术形式。
And there's always been an element of just kind of throw something out there and see how-- And maybe it doesn't appeal to everybody, but you throw it out there and over time, that is what becomes the art form.
创作者们，因为我知道我在YouTube上——
Creators, because I know I'm on YouTube-
……他们会根据激励做出反应。
... they'll respond to incentives.
所以就像如果算法说——YouTube甚至现在都会建议你制作视频——
So like if the algorithm said-- YouTube even today suggests videos to make-
……因为有人看。
... because there's an audience for it.
所以如果他们发现有观众可以吸引——
So they'll respond if they see that there's an audience to be found-
……他们就会去做那些类型的视频，或者如果他们看到按照AI的建议去剪辑，他们也会照做——
... by creating those type of videos or if they see that if they follow the AI suggestions on where to edit, they'll do it-
……因为他们觉得自己会做得更好。
... because they think they're going to do better.
所以我想最大的问题是，信任AI是不是个好主意——
And so I guess the big question is is it a good idea to be trusting the AI-
……让它来做所有这些决策，把艺术从我们手里交到它手里？
... to make all these programming decisions and hand the art effectively from our hands to its hands?
我会换个角度来回答这个问题。
The way that I would answer that question is frame it a bit differently.
你话里隐含的意思是，我们这些负责提出创意或者挑选合适内容的人，其实更懂行。
So implicit in what you said is we all, as the ones who are sort of coming up with the creative idea or picking and choosing the right type of content, we know better.
我们可以决定把什么内容呈现给观众，传统媒体和好莱坞几十年来都是这么运作的，而且效果一直很好。
We'd get to decide what to put in front of the audience, and that's the way traditional media and Hollywood and all that has worked for decades, and it's been amazing.
很多伟大的艺术作品都是这样产生的。
Lots of great art has come out of that.
但从一开始，YouTube的做法就非常不同。
And from the very beginning, YouTube's approach has been very different.
我们的使命是让每个人都有发声的机会，并向他们展示世界。
Our mission is to give everyone a voice and show them the world.
这个使命的第一部分有着非常具体的含义，那就是没有守门人。
And the first part of that mission means something very specific, it means that there are no gatekeepers.
没有人会说：“嘿，Alex，这个想法挺酷的，但也许你不该尝试，或者你应该换个方式做。”
Nobody's saying that, "Hey, Alex, that idea is kind of cool, but maybe you shouldn't try it or maybe you should do it this way."
作为创作者，你可以自己做决定。
You get to decide as the creator.
这就是我希望我的播客呈现的样子。
This is how I want my podcast to be.
这就是我希望它代表的意义。
This is what I want it to stand for.
这就是《大科技》将要代表的方向，填补行业里的这个空白。
This is what Big Technology is going to represent and fill this niche in the industry.
而这是你的选择。
And it's your choice.
所以你决定这么做，而AI的作用——我常说，把“AI算法”这个词换成“观众”。
So you're deciding to do that, and what AI does and I often say replace that word AI algorithm with audience.
是观众在做选择。
It's the audience that is choosing.
这就是YouTube和其他平台的区别。
That's the difference between YouTube and other platforms.
所以重点不在于AI或算法。
So it's not about the AI or the algorithm.
就像我说的，那是舞台，但你在YouTube上每天看到的，其实是观众在给你反馈。
Like I said, that's the stage, but what you're seeing in YouTube every single day is the audience giving you feedback.
那为什么好莱坞那三四个坐在那里的人，要替我们所有观众做这些决定呢？
And so why should three or four people sitting in Hollywood make all those decisions for all of us as viewers?
为什么每天来YouTube的二十亿观众，不能自己决定喜欢什么、不喜欢什么呢？
Why can't the two billion viewers who come to YouTube every single day make decisions for themselves about what they like, what they don't like?
正是YouTube上每天存在的这种创业式的、创造性的能量，让数百万像你这样的创作者得以蓬勃发展。
And it's that sort of entrepreneurial sort of creative energy that exists on YouTube every day that has allowed millions and millions of creators like yourself to flourish.
所以这不是AI在挑选内容，而是我们作为观众在挑选我们想要的内容，在YouTube上没人能告诉我们什么好、什么不好、什么是艺术、什么不是艺术。
And so it's not about the AI picking the content, it's about us as viewers picking the content, the exact content that we want, and nobody gets to tell us on YouTube what's good, what's not good, what's art, what's not art.
我们自己来决定，这就是像YouTube这样的开放平台的力量。
We get to decide, and that's the power of an open platform like YouTube.
对，而且我得说，我更喜欢YouTube这种世界，而不是那种有守门人的世界，因为说实话，如果我在有守门人的世界里做《大科技》，可能根本做不起来。
Yeah, and I should say I'm much happier with the YouTube version of the world than the gatekeeper version of the world because let's face it, if I was trying to do Big Technology in the world of gatekeepers, it probably wouldn't happen.
我们能存在，就是因为没有守门人。
We exist because there are no gatekeepers.
我们不需要去《纽约时报》发表科技文章。
We don't need to go to "The New York Times" to publish articles about technology.
我也不需要去HBO才能做这个节目。
I don't need to go to HBO to be able to make this show.
这就是——
And that's-
对，你刚才作为创作者说了一些很有意思的话，我觉得这是创作者真正凭直觉就能理解的，就是如何做调整，如何回应反馈。
Yeah, and you said something very interesting as a creator, which I think is very A creator really understands intuitively, which is how to make tweaks, how to respond to feedback.
你是在算法的语境下描述的。
You described it in the context of the algorithm.
嗯，那其实就是观众在给你——
Well, that's just the audience giving you-
是的
Yes
……那个信号。
... that signal.
另一个能立刻得到反馈的地方就是你视频下方的评论区，对吧？
The other place where you get feedback instantaneously is right below your video on the watch page, those comments, right?
他们直接告诉你该做音频还是视频，或者别的什么。
They are telling you whether you should do audio versus video, or what have you.
而且这种反馈是即时的。
And that feedback is instantaneous.
这其实就是你的粉丝、观众、听众、观众在直接告诉你他们对你的作品的真实看法。
And that is literally your fan base, your audience, your listeners, your viewers telling you exactly what they think about what you just did.
然后怎么采纳或者不采纳，就由你自己决定，而不是中间隔着十个人替你做决定，或者等三个月后“季度”结束了才收到反馈，那时候已经太晚了。
And then it's your choice then how to incorporate it or not incorporate it, as opposed to having 10 middlemen in between deciding that for you, or that feedback coming three months later after the "season" is done and it's too late.
而且他们可不会客气，所以——
And they're not shy, so-
……大家要友善一点。
... be nice, folks.
但咱们再多聊聊这个，因为这些都是好的方面。
But let's talk a little bit more about this, because these are all the good things.
我觉得，而且看起来很明显，世界发展的方向就是这样，这将会是所有内容的发展方式。
The thing that I think, and it seems pretty clear, the way that the world is heading, this is going to be the way that all content goes.
也许不是全部，但大部分会是。
Maybe not all, but much of it.
就像YouTube上也有热门节目。
Like YouTube has hit shows on it.
这是你宣布的另一件事。
This is another announcement you're making.
你正在倾向于更多短篇迷你剧——
You're leaning into more shorter miniseries-
——在YouTube上。
... on YouTube.
所以YouTube开始有点，不只是开始，它已经在超越传统媒体了，而且制作水平也达到了那个级别。
So YouTube is starting to sort of, it's not even starting, it is beating the legacy players, but in league with that level of production as well.
所以当我们看这个的时候，我觉得有必要谈谈我可能一直在暗示但没问清楚的问题，那就是所有内容最终会不会看起来都一样？
So as we look to this, I think it's good to talk about the thing that maybe I've been getting at and haven't been clear on in my questioning is can it all end up looking the same?
你听说过“Instagram脸”吗？
Have you heard of, I think it's called Instagram face?
就是那种大家拍照时都摆同一个姿势，然后发到Instagram上的那种。
It's like the picture, the same pose that everybody makes when they look at the camera and they put it on Instagram.
那里确实存在一种由算法驱动的内容同质化现象。
There is a algorithm-driven homogenization of content that's happened there.
那你怎么看这个问题？又怎么防止这种情况发生呢？
And so how do you think about that, and how do you guard against that?
我觉得YouTube的情况完全不是这样。
I think that that's just not the way YouTube has worked.
你几乎从YouTube一开始就一直在关注它的发展。
You've obviously followed the YouTube story for almost since the very beginning.
你知道我也一样。
You know I have as well.
而且我觉得实际上结果几乎完全相反。
And I think that it honestly ends up being almost the complete opposite of that.
我的意思是，因为缺少把关人，因为YouTube允许的那种创业式的创造力，就像你自己描述的那样，会出现成千上万的粉丝圈和细分领域。
And what I mean by that is what happens because of this lack of gatekeepers, because of this sort of entrepreneurial sort of creativity that YouTube allows, like you describe in your own case, there are millions and millions of fandoms and niches that emerge.
我觉得YouTube的体验恰恰相反，就像你打开电视，会看到基于你兴趣的特定剧集、节目或创作者。
What I think the YouTube experience is, is a bit of the opposite of that, which is when you turn on the TV, you get very specific episodes or shows or creators based on your interests.
现在事实证明，有数百万其他人也有这些兴趣，所以那些细分文化现象并不小，它们很大，因为每天有二十亿人访问YouTube，但确实有成千上万这样的细分领域。
Now it turns out that there are millions of other people who also have those interests, so those niche sort of cultural phenomenon are not tiny, they're large because of the two billion people that come to YouTube every day, but they really are millions and millions of these types of niches.
我自己的经历也是如此，而且顺便说一句，这种情况一年中还会变化。
And the same thing happens to me in my experience, and by the way, it changes through the course of the year.
我去YouTube是因为我有时喜欢学一些随机的冷门知识，但我也去YouTube是因为我喜欢体育，那是最主流的大众文化了。
I go to YouTube because I love to learn kind of random esoteric things sometimes, but I also go to YouTube because I love sports, and that's sort of as mainstream monoculture as it gets.
YouTube给你的是那种完整的频谱，而不是任何形式的同质化。
And YouTube sort of gives you that sort of full spectrum as opposed to any sort of homogenization.
我想说的是，因为我们在全球范围内被广泛使用，很难发生那种同质化，更多的是这些细分兴趣，同时也有百万个你最亲密的朋友在关注。
What I would say is that because we are used so broadly, really all over the world, it's very hard for that kind of homogenization to happen, and it's more about sort of these niche interests that are also followed by a million of your closest friends.
嗯，有一定道理，也许不是视频本身，但想想YouTube上的这种现象，MrBeast引领了很多潮流，然后人们跟着学。
Well, there's a degree of that, maybe not in the videos themselves, but if you think about it's kind of this phenomenon on YouTube that the way that MrBeast sets a lot of these trends, and then people follow.
就像MrBeast在缩略图里看镜头的那种方式，你一旦注意到它——
Like the way that MrBeast looks at the camera in his thumbnails is something that once you take a look at it first-
你的缩略图里也这么做吗？
Are you doing those in your thumbnails?
有时候会。
Sometimes.
我得仔细看看了。
I'm going to pay closer attention.
我们发现那种震惊的——
We've found that the shocked-
表情其实不如那种——
... expression doesn't do as well as just kind of like-
看起来有点担心，或者笑一笑之类的效果好。
... looking concerned or a laugh or something like that.
对，我也不太清楚。
Yeah, I don't know.
我觉得我们不在同一个档次。
I don't think we're in the same category.
但是确实有一些——
But there has been some-
我称之为算法驱动的同质化现象，在YouTube的某些领域存在。
... of this, I would call it maybe algorithmic-driven homogenization in some elements on YouTube.
你不这么认为吗？
You don't think so?
我觉得确实有——
I think that certainly there-
有些创作者，新兴的创作者，会看Jimmy，因为他在YouTube上太成功了——
... are creators, up and coming creators, that look to Jimmy, just given his success on YouTube-
而且他在文化上的成功，让他们觉得：“嘿，那是个我可以效仿的模板。”
... and just his success in the culture as, "Hey, that's a blueprint that I should try to follow."
而且，顺便说一句，我觉得这其实一直是YouTube文化的一部分，就是创作者文化。
And look, by the way, I think that, that has actually always been part of the YouTube culture, like the YouTube creator culture.
这在一定程度上是模仿。
It's mimetic to a degree.
不，我的意思是，如果你已经成功了，你的工作实际上就是帮助下一代创作者成长。
No, like the aspect of if you've made it, your job is to actually help the next generation of creators come along.
我觉得像MrBeast这样的创作者确实很注重这一点，但也有那种向成功创作者学习的方面。
And I think creators like MrBeast and others really lean into that, but there is that aspect of trying to learn from those creators that have been successful.
不过，我要评论的是那种整个YouTube上某种同质化的概念，而我们在数据中并没有看到这种情况。
What I'm commenting on, though, is this notion of sort of- ... a kind of homogeneity across all of YouTube, and we don't see that in the data.
每次我参加活动或和朋友聚会时，我最喜欢问的一个问题就是他们最喜欢在YouTube上看什么。
Every time I go, one of my favorite questions is when I'm at an event or hanging out with friends is just to ask what their favorite thing is to watch on YouTube.
我可以告诉你，这个问题我已经问了十年了，几乎每次都能得到完全不同的独特答案，我觉得这才是YouTube体验的本质，坦白说，也是它长久不衰的原因。
And I can tell you, I've been asking that question for a decade now, and I almost always get a completely unique, different answer, and I think that is more the essence of the experience on YouTube, and frankly, where the longevity comes from.
好的。
Okay.
这很有意思。
It's interesting.
AI可能更多是在帮助包装方面，比如你想想，缩略图的动态测试，而且标题已经有A/B测试了。
The AI might be helping more with, let's say, packaging, when you think about this, the dynamic test for thumbnails and there's already AB testing for headlines.
所以，好的，知道它不会变成那样就好。
So, okay, it's good to know it's not going to convert to-
它帮助所有——
It helps with all-
……统一
... uniform
……那些方面，但它确实只是帮助，就像我说的——
... of those things, but it helps with really just, like I said-
……它给了我们一套不同的工具，帮助处理YouTube的不同方面——
... it gives us a different set of toolkits that help with different aspects-
……的YouTube。
... of YouTube.
YouTube的核心部分之一，我知道你很熟悉，就是内容识别系统，保护创作者的权利和他们的知识产权。
One of the core parts of YouTube that I know you're familiar with is content ID and protecting creators' rights and their IP.
那是十多年前对AI的投资了。
That was investment in AI well over 10 years ago.
所以它深深植根于公司和产品的方方面面，有些地方更明显，对吧？
So it's sort of deeply rooted in every aspect of the company and the product, and there are places where it's more visible, right?
比如，主应用上那个加号按钮后面的创作工具。
For example, like those creation tools that are right behind the plus button on the main app.
但有些地方，它只是深深嵌入了YouTube的运作方式。
But there's places where it's just kind of deeply embedded into how YouTube works.
完全同意。
Totally.
好的，那么说到你想在YouTube上看到的内容，你希望YouTube上有AI生成的内容吗？
All right, so when you think about the content that you want on YouTube, do you want AI-generated content on YouTube?
我的看法是，我们希望内容能与世界各地的观众和粉丝产生共鸣。
The way I look at it is we want content that connects with viewers and fans all over the world.
我经常说，YouTube是世界上最高效的连接器，把创意或创意人与他们的观众连接起来，无论观众在世界哪个角落。
I often sometimes say that YouTube is the world's most efficient connector of a creative idea or creative person with their audience, no matter where that audience is in the world.
所以，既然这是YouTube的核心，我就希望有更多这样的内容，对吧？
And so to the extent that that is the core of what YouTube does, I want more of that type of content, right?
不管AI是不是用来创作这类内容的工具，它只是当今先进技术的一种体现。
And whether AI is used as a tool to create that type of content, that's just more a manifestation of sort of the state-of-the-art technology that exists today.
我确实认为，YouTube有责任确保像你这样的创作者能够使用这些工具，但选择用哪些工具、怎么用，是创作者自己的选择和责任。
I do believe that it is YouTube's responsibility to make sure that our creators, like yourself, have access to those tools, but it's the creator's choice and responsibility to choose which tools to use and how to use them.
我发现，观众来YouTube，其实更多是在寻找人的故事或人与人之间的连接，而这类内容往往是最受欢迎的。
And what I find is when viewers come to YouTube, it's really more that human story or that human connection that they're looking for, and it tends to be that that type of content is what rises to the top.
我觉得，从这个角度看，AI和过去那些激发创造力的技术没什么不同。
And I think AI, in that sense, is not different than other types of technology that enabled creativity in the past.
比如我们小时候合成器的出现，对吧？
Whether it was the advent of the synthesizer when we were growing up, right?
或者鼓机之类的。
Or the drum machine or what have you.
总会有新技术来提升艺术体验，但同样重要的是，背后总有一个人在掌控，就像指挥家一样。
There's always technology that comes along that enhances the artistic experience, but what is also true is that there's a human being that actually is sort of the maestro that's controlling it.
我觉得至少到目前为止，我们在YouTube上看到的情况就是这样。
And I think that that's at least so far what we're seeing on YouTube.
所以我们看到，我在视频里也看到了，你可能也看到了，这些新技术实际上创造了一个原本可能不存在的内容调色板，但这一切都是为了服务于人类的故事讲述。
So we are seeing, I see it in videos, you probably see it too, the use of these new technologies to actually create a palette of content that otherwise might not have existed, but it's all in service of that human storytelling.
这就是我们在YouTube上看到的，无论是短视频还是长视频，因为我觉得人们来是为了与人建立联系。
And so that's what we're seeing on YouTube, both on the short side, but also on the long-form side, because I think people come to connect with humans.
两台电脑已经能够互相下棋很长时间了。
Two computers have been able to play chess- ... against each other for a very long time.
只有在至少一方是人类的情况下，在YouTube上才会真正有趣。
It's really only interesting on YouTube if at least one of them is human.
而且有些AI视频，它们做得越来越好了。
And some of the AI videos, they're getting good.
我不知道，你最近有没有看到那个可口可乐卡车漏水的视频，它一直在热门上？
I don't know, did you see the video recently that's been trending of the Coke truck that sprung a leak?
你没看过这个吗？
You didn't see this one?
这个我还没看过呢。
I haven't seen this one yet, no.
哦，尼尔，你一定要看看这个。
Oh, Neal, you got to watch this.
好的。
Okay.
我们放视频的时候会把它放出来，不过我先给你讲讲吧。
We'll put it up when we play the video, but let me narrate it for you.
好的。
Okay.
高速路边有一辆可口可乐的卡车。
There's a Coke truck on the side of the highway.
它漏了。
It springs a leak.
一个拿着大罐子的人走到从卡车后面流出来的可乐旁边，把罐子放在水流下，开始大口喝可乐。
A man with a gallon jug walks up to the Coke streaming out of the back of this truck, puts the gallon jug in the stream, and starts chugging the Coke.
然后他打开旁边的卡车，那正好是一辆曼妥思卡车，他把曼妥思倒在人行道上，和地上的可乐混在一起，产生了爆炸性的推进力，然后他就被弹出了画面。
Then he opens up the truck next door, which happens to be a Mentos truck, and he starts dumping the Mentos out on the sidewalk, mixing it with the Coke on the floor, and it creates an explosive propellant and he shoots out of the frame.
他站上去——
He stands on it-
……然后人就不见了。
... and he's gone.
现在——
Now-
你看了多少遍？
How many times did you watch it?
很多遍。
Many times.
其实这差不多就是我周末的大部分时间。
This was most of my weekend, actually.
我不会说那是AI垃圾。
I wouldn't say that's AI slop.
那就好。
That's good.
其实，亚历克斯，你正好说到了一个关键点。你在提问开头问的是，我怎么看待AI生成的内容？
Actually, you're hitting on a key point there, Alex, which is you asked at the beginning of your question, how do I think about AI-generated content?
我是希望它更多还是更少？
Do I want more or less of it?
但我觉得，这不是我思考问题的维度。
And I think that's not the dimension along which I think.
所以，希望我的回答能传达出，AI技术可能只是实现创意目标的一种手段，但真正脱颖而出的，是新的创意、概念，以及那些能引起创作者粉丝共鸣的东西。
And so hopefully, my answer conveyed that AI technology might be a means to that creative end, but what rises to the top is new creative ideas and concepts and things that resonate with creators' fans.
所以，并没有一个明确的“AI不好，其他都好”或者相反的说法。
And so there isn't an explicit sort of AI bad, everything else good, or vice versa.
所有规则，从我们平台的内容政策，到什么样的内容能引起观众共鸣——
All the kind of rules of starting with our content policies on our platform to what resonates with audiences-
……都跟这个因素无关。
... are independent of that factor.
所以你的意思是，只要内容好，就没问题。
So you're saying basically, if it's good, it's okay.
对，我觉得是这样。
Yeah, I think so.
因为就像我说的，即使在你描述的那个例子里，真正能打动人的还是其中包含的某种叙事元素。
Because like I said, what comes through, even in the example that you described, is there's some aspect of storytelling associated with.
而且顺便说一句，技术发展得太快了，所以也很容易制造出低质量的内容。
And by the way, the technology ... uh, is evolving so fast that it's also very easy to create low-quality content.
所以可能更值得关注的是这个维度，也就是说，不管它叫AI垃圾还是什么，那跟AI本身是两回事，对吧？
And so that's probably more the dimension into which to look, which is, whether it's referred to as AI slop or what have you, that's different than AI per se, right?
就像，所有这些都是——
Like it's all-
是的
Yes
——关键在于高质量的内容。
... it's about high-quality content.
所以YouTube不会因为内容是AI生成的就直接惩罚它。
So YouTube won't penalize content if it's AI off the bat.
他们会给它一个机会。
They're going to give it a shot.
如果不仅仅是因为那个方面，对吧？
Not if it's not purely on that sort of aspect of it, right?
而且，什么才算AI呢，对吧？
And by the way, like what constitutes AI, right?
你是不是用了某个工具来处理视频里的那五秒钟，或者背景里的那个东西？
Did you use some tool to do this five-second thing in your video or this in the background?
其实人们一直在这么做——
Well, people have been doing that-
不，我说的是——
No, I'm talking about-
——从一开始就是这样，对吧。
... since the beginning, right
……就像纯AI内容。
... like purely AI content.
但即便如此，你怎么划清界限呢？
But even there, how do you draw the line, right?
它是怎么组合起来的，还是不是？
How is that put together or not?
所以就像我说的，关键还是要看内容的质量，以及什么能引起观众共鸣，让这些内容脱颖而出。
And so like I said, it's got to be more about the quality of the content and what's resonating with an audience and having that rise to the top.
我们非常重视AI垃圾内容这个概念。
And we take the notion of AI slop very seriously.
我绝不想让YouTube Shorts的体验变成那样，也不想让YouTube上的任何体验或页面变成那样。
I would never want our YouTube Shorts experience to basically become that, or any of our experiences or surfaces on YouTube to become that.
好的。
Okay.
所以你说的AI垃圾内容，你相信确实有这种东西，而且你不希望它出现。
So the term AI slop, you believe that there's a thing called AI slop and you don't want it.
我觉得你肯定见过。
I think you've seen it.
我就见过。
I've seen it.
就这样——
That's all-
我还以为你要说“我做的”，其实我确实做过。
I thought you were about to say, "I made it," which I have.
但我尽量不在YouTube上传。
But I try not to upload on YouTube.
不过我倒想过创建——
But I have thought about creating-
……其他频道，比如我会把当天的科技新闻放进NotebookLM，那是谷歌的产品——
... other channels where, for instance, I would take the day's tech news, put it through NotebookLM, which is a Google product-
……然后你可以用NotebookLM制作视频，再上传到YouTube。
... and you can make videos from NotebookLM and then upload it to YouTube.
我不知道这是不是介于垃圾内容和有趣内容之间。
I don't know if that's kind of like in the border of slop and of interest.
再说一次，我觉得这和……有关。
Again, I think it has to do with-
这取决于……
It depends on-
……观众的反应。
... how the audience responds.
不只是观众的反应，对，那很重要，就像我们之前说的，但还要看你自己作为创作者对内容的感觉……
Not just how the audience responds, yes, that's important, as we talked about earlier, but also how you as the creator feel about the content-
……对那个视频的感觉，对吧？
... of that video, right?
它是否体现了你在编辑上的立场？
Does it carry forward what you stand for editorially?
这是你的观众期待你做的，还是只是某种随意的……
Is it something that your audience expects from you, or is it just some kind of random kind of-
……上传的视频？
... video that's uploaded?
这些因素确实很重要，我觉得这就是决定在YouTube上成功与否的关键。
Those things actually matter, and I think that that's what goes into what succeeds on YouTube versus not as well.
自从这些AI工具出现或问世以来，你看到YouTube上的上传量增加了吗？
Since the development of, or the inception of these AI tools, have you seen an increase in uploads on YouTube?
曲线有没有任何变化？
Has the curve bended at all?
我觉得不一定直接跟这个有关。
I don't think necessarily directly correlated to that.
好的。
Okay.
YouTube还在持续增长——
YouTube continues to grow-
……它依然是一个每天都有新创作者找到观众的地方。
... continues to be a place where new creators are finding audience every day.
有时候有人问我这个问题，比如“谁是YouTube上最重要的创作者，或者你最关注谁？”
Sometimes I get asked this question, it's like, "Well, who are the most important creators on YouTube, or who do you think about the most?"
我总说，最重要的创作者其实是今天第一次按下上传按钮的那个人。
And what I always say is the most important creator is actually that person who's hitting the upload button for the very first time today.
因为那是YouTube的命脉，它为下一个Alex的出现创造了机会，让他们今天就开始上传内容。
Because that's the lifeblood of YouTube, which is creating an opportunity for the next Alex to come along, and start uploading today.
所以随着YouTube成为一种文化现象，当然有越来越多的创作者，成千上万的人都在尝试。
And so as YouTube has become this cultural phenomenon, of course there are many more creators, millions of them kind of trying their hand at it.
我觉得这和AI无关，
I think that that's independent of-
……和是否使用AI无关。
... this question of AI or not.
AI是否真的让内容创作变得更简单，并且进一步普及了它，就像YouTube在20年前刚起步时那样？
Does AI actually make some of this content creation easier and further democratized it, just like YouTube did in the very early days, 20 years ago?
是的，当然。
Yeah, of course.
我觉得这是件好事。
And I think that that's a good thing.
好的，所以并不是说YouTube上的内容创作达到某个水平，然后突然出现一个拐点——
Okay, so there was not some level of content creation happening on YouTube and then just a inflection point-
据我所知没有，是的。
Not that I'm aware of, yeah
——随着这些AI工具的出现。
... with these AI tools.
这很有意思。
That's very interesting.
好的，关于这个再问一个问题，然后我们继续。
Okay, one more question about this, and then we'll move on.
你把AI看作是你的竞争对手吗？
Do you view AI as a competition for you?
因为Netflix的CEO说过一句很有意思的话，他说：“我的竞争对手是睡眠。”
Because there was that interesting comment from the Netflix CEO where he was like, "Well, my competition is sleep."
就像，对于YouTube来说，你同一时间真的只能看一个内容，或者专注于一个，最多两个。
And it's like, well, for YouTube, you can really only be watching one thing at the same time, or engaged in one, maybe two.
最多两个。
Maybe two.
人们会在电视上看点什么，然后手机上看Shorts——
People, they'll watch something on the TV, and then they'll have Shorts on in their-
在手机上。
... on their phone.
但是——
But with-
你有YouTube TV吗？
Do you have YouTube TV?
上面可以多屏同看。
You can do multi-view on it.
我觉得——
I think-
同时看四场比赛。
Watch four games at once.
好的，我们来聊聊周日票，因为我对这个有些想法。
Okay, we'll talk about Sunday Ticket because I have some thoughts on that.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
不过我主要在电脑和手机上看YouTube，但说实话，我在这些设备上也看Netflix和HBO。
But I watch YouTube mostly on the computer and phone, but to be fair, that's where I also watch Netflix and HBO.
对话式AI机器人会变得更有吸引力，尤其是随着AI技术的进步，我相信它们会占据人们更多的时间。
Conversational AI bots are going to become much more engaging, much more, especially as the AI gets better, they're going to command, I believe, a bigger share of people's time.
它们会成为一种娱乐媒介。
They'll be an entertainment medium.
所以我很想听听你的看法，当你在做重大规划、考虑竞争格局时，AI聊天机器人是否已经进入你的视野，成为你可能需要争夺用户时间的对手？
And so I'm curious to hear your thoughts on, do you view that as like when you do your big planning and you think about competitive landscape, has AI chatbots even registered for you as some place that you might have to fight for share of time with?
亚历克斯，你知道的，我在这个行业已经很久了，甚至在YouTube之前，就一直处在媒体和科技的交汇点上，这里一直竞争激烈。
I've been, as you know, Alex, in this business for a very long time, even before YouTube, just in this sort of media and technology intersection, and it's always been competitive.
选择一直都有。
There's always been choice.
我觉得从来没有像现在这样充满活力、选择如此丰富的时代——
I would say that there's never been a more dynamic and kind of time that's full of choices for all-
——对我们所有消费者来说，今天就是这样的时代。
... of us as consumers than today.
而且我认为总的来说，这是件好事。
And I think on balance, that's a good thing.
这让我们所有消费者和观众都能掌握主动权，我觉得这才是应有的状态。
It allows for all of us as consumers and viewers to be in the driver's seat, which I think is the way that it should work.
所以，要真正回答你的问题，最好的方式就是：我们的重点是，当你在YouTube上，或者考虑来YouTube时，我们真的会给你最好的体验。
And so the best way to really answer that question for you is Our focus is that when you're on YouTube or when you're thinking about coming to YouTube, that we really are giving you the best experience possible.
这是我们的北极星。
That's our North Star.
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这就是我们看待业务的方式。
That's how we think about our business.
我们是否相关？
Are we relevant?
在YouTube上，我们有一个关于长期满足感的概念。
We have this notion on YouTube of sort of long-term satisfaction.
所以不仅仅是作为观众或消费者的即时满足，还包括那种长期来看，感觉你的时间——你最宝贵的资源——得到了值得的利用。
So not just satisfaction of you as a viewer or consumer in the immediate term, but also something that feels like a worthwhile use of your time, your most precious commodity, over the long term.
这就是我们思考产品和业务的方式。
And that's how we think about our product and business.
这也是我们自我管理的方式，我希望这能让你对我们如何处理这些权衡有所了解。
It's how we govern ourselves, and I think hopefully that gives you some insight in terms of how we think-
是的
Yes
关于这些权衡。
... about these trade-offs.
因为这些都是你的选择。
Because those are your choices.
我觉得这说明了，第一，你有选择权。
And I think what it says is, A, you get to choose.
第二，这不只是追求一时的快感或者别的什么。
B, that it's not just about sort of an immediate sort of sugar high or what have you.
而是要看长远来看，你是否觉得这段时间花得值。
It's do you view it as valuable time over the long term.
是的，我们平台上有各种格式的内容，从15秒的短视频到15分钟的点播视频，再到一个小时的播客，三个小时的NFL比赛，甚至15小时的直播。
And yeah, we're a place where we have kind of every type of format, from 15-second shorts to 15-minute VODs, to hour-long podcasts, to three-hour NFL games, to 15-hour live streams.
所以我们确实努力满足观众来YouTube时的各种需求，这就是我们对产品的思考方式。
And so we do attempt to cater to whatever our viewers are demanding when they come to YouTube, and that's how we think about our products.
也许可以问一个类似德瓦克什风格的问题——
To maybe ask a Dwarkesh-style-
关于这个问题的。
... question on this one.
好的。
Okay.
如果智能爆炸迫在眉睫，或者我们已经达到了AGI，那对我来说，如果我是你，我会非常想为此做规划——
If there was an imminent intelligence explosion or we've reached AGI, that to me would be something that I'd really be wanting to be planning for if I was in your shoes-
……因为我会觉得，和这些机器人聊天会变得更有趣。
... because I just would think that talking with these bots would become much more engaging.
但根据你刚才的回答，看起来你还没太担心这个。
But given the way that you answered, it doesn't seem like you're sweating it yet.
就像我说的，这确实是一个极其动态的时期。
Like I said, it is an incredibly dynamic time.
人们有很多很多的选择。
Lots and lots of choices for people.
我觉得YouTube真正有趣的一点是，我们作为人类，作为一个物种，几千年来一直通过讲故事来参与和欣赏人类的故事、人类的联系。
I think one of the things that's really interesting about YouTube is we all, as human beings, as a human species, have engaged in and appreciated storytelling, human storytelling, human connection through storytelling for thousands and thousands and thousands of years.
而YouTube上发生的就是这些。
And that's what happens on YouTube.
而且我觉得在未来，这一点是不会改变的。
And I think that in the future, that aspect is not going to change.
所以只要YouTube能继续保持这个核心地位——
And so as long as YouTube can remain core to that-
……而且我们看到了，比如今年夏天就是一个很好的例子。
... and we saw it, for example, this summer was a great example of that.
从贾斯汀·比伯在科切拉音乐节上通过YouTube直播，到全球17亿人在那精彩的六周里通过YouTube观看世界杯内容。
Everything from Justin Bieber at Coachella live streaming on YouTube to the 1.7 billion people all over the world who watched some FIFA content on YouTube during those kind of amazing six weeks.
或者像Markiplier这样的创作者，他带着观众一起在频道上记录他制作电影的过程，然后在全国数千家影院上映，上映的那个周末就成了好莱坞票房第一。
Or even a creator like Markiplier, who took his audience along on his channel while he built this movie and then released it in thousands of theaters all over the country and became the number one movie in Hollywood over the weekend of his release.
所有这些都关乎创作者和粉丝之间长期的人类故事连接，而这也是我关注的焦点——
All of that is about this long-term human storytelling connection between creators and fans, and that's what I focus on-
……因为我觉得，无论未来世界变成什么样，这种深层次的人类渴望是不会改变的。
... because I think that in sort of whatever world comes in the future, that aspect of that sort of deep human desire is not going to change.
好的。
Okay.
我想先暂停一下，然后聊聊你和谷歌DeepMind的合作方式，以及AI技术如何在谷歌内部推广，还有为什么YouTube能如此出色地利用DeepMind的成果，并迅速将其应用到产品中。
I want to take a quick break and then talk about the way that you work with Google DeepMind and the way that AI technology in particular is diffused within Google, and why YouTube has been so good at taking what Google DeepMind has to offer and implementing it into the product fast.
那我们先休息一下，广告之后马上回来。
So let's do that when we're back right after this.
欢迎回到《大科技》播客，今天我们请到的是YouTube首席执行官尼尔·莫汉。
And we're back here on "Big Technology" podcast with YouTube CEO, Neal Mohan.
尼尔，我们认识很久了。
Neal, we go way back.
从2010年开始，我就一直在报道你参与的项目。
I've been covering the stuff that you've been working on since 2010.
那算起来有16年了吧？
Does that make it 16 years?
没多少人能——
There's not many people-
那是不是说明我们都老了，亚历克斯？
Does that make us old, Alex?
……
...
关于这一点，我可以说的。
I could say about that.
嗯，我觉得自己心态很年轻。
Well, I feel young at heart.
你知道吗？
You know?
就像你休息前说的，现在可能是科技行业最疯狂、最有趣的时期。
Like you were saying before the break, it's probably the craziest, most interesting time to be in tech.
其实很有意思的是，今天你的一些发布里能看到很多广告技术的影子，如果我说错了请纠正我。广告技术的关键就是如何把合适的广告推给合适的人。
It's actually interesting to see a lot of the ad tech, you forgive me if I'm wrong here, but a lot of the ad tech DNA kind of show up in some of the announcements that you're making today, where ad tech is all about how can you get that right ad to the right person.
而YouTube也有类似的优化，就是如何把那个视频推给合适的人。
And similar optimization happens in YouTube, where it's like how do you get that video to that right person?
而且，比如说创意优化这个概念，在广告中是很核心的。
And this idea of, let's say, creative optimization is sort of central to advertising.
而且我们现在可以看到，当你能够对视频进行A/B测试的时候。
And we could see that when you're able to A/B test a video now.
这——
It's-
说得太过了吗？
Pushed too far?
你看，我觉得这两者确实有共同点。
Look, I think that there are common aspects there, for sure.
而且你显然长期报道这个媒体领域，所以你对这些细微差别理解得非常透彻。
And you obviously have covered this media landscape forever, so you understand these nuances extremely well.
我觉得在这两个例子中，无论是广告，还是我们为品牌和观众做的事情，或者是我们为创作者和观众做的事情，它们确实有一些共同元素。
I think that in both those examples, whether it's advertising, what we're doing for our brands and our viewers, or what we're doing for our creators and our viewers, they do have some common elements to them.
其中一个就是我之前提到的，那就是必须值得观众花时间去看。
And one of them is what I was describing earlier, which is it has to be worth the viewer's time.
这就是共同点。
That's the common element.
也就是说，我们作为消费者和观众，每天面对的信息越来越多，而且还在不断增加，就像你说的，所以在YouTube上，我们必须确保这些内容值得大家花时间去看。
Which is we all, as consumers and viewers, have lots and lots of things coming at us that's only increasing, to your point, and so it has to be a good use of all of our time when we're on YouTube.
所以，给创作者提供工具，让他们能为自己的观众做这些事，我觉得真的非常重要。
And so giving creators the tools to do that on behalf of their, for their audiences, I think is really, really important.
我们关注的很多内容，不仅仅是你在手机、电脑或电视上的YouTube主应用里体验到的那些功能，还包括YouTube Studio本身的功能，对吧？
A lot of what we focus on is not just those features that are what you experience in the main YouTube app on your phone, on your desktop, on your television screen, but are actually in YouTube Studio itself, right?
很多人工智能的应用其实都在那里，因为那是我们的创作者每天用来建立这些联系的工具。
That's where a lot of the AI goes because those are the tools that our creators use every day to make those connections.
所以，是的，这两者之间确实有一些共通之处。
And so yeah, there's some commonality there.
我们也在努力把这些工具和能力带给品牌方，对吧？
And we do the same thing in terms of Trying to bring those tools and capabilities to brands as well, right?
他们也需要考虑自己，而且现在这些界限越来越模糊了，对吧？
They have to think about themselves, and increasingly, some of those lines are merging, right?
有些品牌开始首先把自己看作是YouTube上的创作者，甚至在他们考虑要花的第一笔媒体费用之前就已经这样想了。
Some brands are ending up thinking about themselves as creators on YouTube first and foremost, even before they think about the first dollar they're going to spend on media.
对，完全同意。
Yep, totally.
好的。
All right.
所以我在休息前提到过，想和你聊聊你们是如何与谷歌的AI部门，也就是谷歌DeepMind合作的。
So I teased before the break that I wanted to talk with you about the way that you work with Google's AI division, Google DeepMind.
我觉得这很有意思，因为据我所知，AI在谷歌内部的工作方式基本上是谷歌DeepMind在公司内部创建了一个叫做“引擎室”的部门，引进了很多人才，包括AI人才和其他部门的人才。
And I find it interesting because the way that I understand AI works within Google is that basically Google DeepMind has created this division, it's called the Engine Room within the company, where it's brought in a lot of talent, AI talent, and talent from other divisions.
他们实际上把研究团队做出的任何AI创新都提供给不同的产品，比如YouTube、地图、Gmail，然后由这些产品来决定如何整合这些技术。
And they have effectively taken any AI innovation that the research group makes and made it available to different products like YouTube, like Maps, like Gmail, and it's sort of up to those products to then integrate the technology.
我在休息前说过，现在再说一遍，我认为在YouTube内部，没有任何部门或产品比YouTube本身更积极地应用AI了。
I've said it before the break, I'll say it again, I don't think any division within YouTube or product within YouTube has more aggressively implemented AI than YouTube.
它无处不在。
It's everywhere.
我们今天已经讨论了一些发布的内容。
We've talked about some of the announcements today.
我们可以聊聊Ask功能，比如你可以在任何YouTube视频下面提问任何问题，即使你没看完整视频，它也能让你和视频内容互动。
We can talk a little bit about Ask, like the fact that you can ask anything underneath any YouTube video, and it will allow you to engage with the subject matter there, even if you haven't watched the full video.
在创作者那边，还有Ask Studio。
And on the creator side, there's Ask Studio.
所以你在工作室里，可以问一些问题，比如：我的频道表现怎么样？
So you're in the studio, and you can ask questions like, how's my channel doing?
哪些视频比较受欢迎？
What videos have been popular?
为什么这个视频完全没人看？
Why is this video not reaching anybody at all?
这类问题。
These type of things.
这挺厉害的。
It's pretty dramatic.
所以先聊聊，首先，你是怎么和那个Engine Room合作的，是不是像那样运作的，然后为什么你决定这么积极地给YouTube引入AI。
So talk a little bit about, first of all, how you work with that Engine Room, whether that's the way it works, and then why you've decided to be so aggressive about implementing AI to YouTube.
首先，YouTube 和 Google DeepMind 每天都在非常紧密地合作。
So first and foremost, YouTube works very closely with Google DeepMind on a daily basis.
我们有团队，从我这一层开始，和那边的 Demis 和 Koray 对应，但更重要的是，在团队层面和工作团队层面，每天都有合作，我可以给你举一些例子。
We have teams starting at my level with my counterparts, Demis and Koray over there, but all the way, probably even more importantly, at the team and working teams levels every single day, and I can give you examples of those.
我还想说，正如我们在这里讨论的，这一直是我和 YouTube 的重点，无论是在创作者方面，还是所有那些创作者工具，包括我们这周宣布的许多工具，还是在观众和品牌方面。
I would say also, it has been, as we've talked about here, a big focus of mine and YouTube's, both on the creator side and all those creator tools, including many of them that we're announcing this week, but also on the viewer side and the brand side.
实际上，我认为，在过去的两年、三年、四年里，YouTube 的所有利益相关者都从我们在 AI 上的大量投资以及与 DeepMind 的合作中受益了。
Actually, all facets of stakeholders at YouTube have benefited, I would argue, over the last two, three, four years from our very heavy investment in AI and our partnership with DeepMind.
但我想说，我认为这在整个 Google 和所有 Google 产品中都是普遍存在的，贯穿始终，我经常从我的角度看到这一点。
But I would say, that I think is pervasive across all of Google and all of Google's products, through and through, and I see that from my perch regularly.
所以——
And so-
不是所有地方。
Not everywhere.
当我想搜索 YouTube 视频时，得到的结果比搜索 Gmail 好得多——
When I want to search a YouTube video, I get a much better result than when I want to search my Gmail-
……用 Gemini。
... with Gemini.
我得用 ChatGPT 来搜 Gmail。
I have to use ChatGPT to search Gmail.
但我知道，当我用 Ask Studio 或者在 YouTube 视频下面用 Ask 的时候——
But I know when I use Ask Studio or I'm using Ask underneath the YouTube video-
Ask 是一个——
Ask is a-
我得到的是——
I'm getting-
其实 Ask 是深度合作的成果。
Ask is a deep collaboration, actually.
好的。
Okay.
这是 YouTube 和……之间的一个好例子。
It's a good example between YouTube-
你稍微讲讲这个吧，对。
Talk a little bit about it, yeah
……在YouTube和Google Gemini之间。
... between YouTube and Google Gemini.
那里的想法是，实际上这就是为什么你在每个YouTube Ask会话底部会看到——
And the idea there, and actually that's why you see at the bottom of every YouTube Ask session that you're in-
……一个指向Gemini的链接——
... a link out to Gemini-
……以防你想深入了解。
... in case you want to go deeper.
希望你觉得这挺顺畅的。
Hopefully, you found that to be pretty seamless.
但是——
But the-
抱歉。
Sorry.
我们要不要跟大家说说这个“提问”按钮？
Should we tell folks about this Ask button?
当然可以。
Sure.
因为如果你还不熟悉的话——
Because in case you're not familiar-
我应该说说。
I should.
现在每个视频下面都有一个“提问”按钮——
... there's a Ask button underneath every video now-
你点一下按钮，就会弹出一个对话窗口，你可以直接跟YouTube聊这个视频的内容。
... where you can basically hit the button, and a conversation pops up, and you can talk to YouTube about the video effectively.
你最喜欢哪些使用场景？
What's your favorite set of use cases?
你喜欢用它来做什么？
What do you like to use it for?
我简直用得停不下来。
I use it like crazy.
比如说，如果你对某个兴趣感兴趣，比如冲浪、跑步、徒步，我全都喜欢。
Let's say, okay, so if you get into an interest, surfing, running because hiking, I get into all of these.
而且互联网上找信息最好的地方，绝对是YouTube。
And the best place to find information on the internet period is YouTube.
所以我会看，比如说现在跑步，因为我在为比赛训练。
So I will watch, let's say running right now, because I'm training for a race.
但我看那些创作者讲步幅、怎么控制心率什么的。
But I'm watching all these creators talk about strides and where to keep-
还有那些东西。
... your heart rate and all this stuff.
有些视频很快就讲到重点。
Some of the videos get to the point quickly.
其他的，他们想超过八分钟，这样就能插播中段广告。
Others, they want to get above eight minutes, so they can insert mid-rolls.
有人建议我这么做。
I've been advised to do that.
我们的视频大多不是因为这个原因才不到八分钟的。
Our clips aren't underneath eight minutes for that reason, mostly.
但如果他们不直奔主题，或者我看了开头几分钟后想，‘还有没有别的内容，值不值得继续看下去？’我就会直接点‘提问’，然后问，‘他们到底让我做什么？’
But if they're not getting to the point or I watch the first couple of minutes and I'm like, "I wonder if there's anything else, and if it's worth continuing to watch," I'll just hit Ask, and I'll be like, "What are they telling me to do?
这到底是怎么运作的？
How does this actually work?"
然后它就能给我一个完整的——显然，它是基于转录文本来工作的，然后它会给我信息。
And it'll be able to give me a com-- Obviously, there's a transcript that it's working off of, and it will give me information.
所以我觉得，在消费者层面，这也很好。
So I think that is, as on the consumer level, that's also great.
我还得说，现在正好是打广告的好时机。
I should also say, this is a great time for me to plug it.
各位，我们有时候不太擅长加时间戳。
Folks, we're not always great with putting the timestamps.
一个好办法就是让 Ask 给你视频的时间戳，这样你就能知道后面有什么内容。
Great way to do this is ask Ask for the timestamps of a video, and you can see what's coming.
然后如果你有特别感兴趣的内容。
And then if you have a specific interest.
比如说，你在看一个关于科技的大视频，你其实只想知道我们有没有聊到量子。
Let's say you're on a big technology video and you really only want to know if we talk about quantum.
我也不知道为什么。
I don't know why.
这通常不是我们会聊的话题——
It's not a typical topic for us-
但你只要去 Ask 里问一句：“这个视频里有量子相关的内容吗？”
... but you can just go into Ask and be like, "Does this video have any quantum in it?"
然后你就可以直接跳到那个时间点。
And then you can go to the timestamp.
这些都是很好的例子，而且很明显，你是它的重度用户。
Those are all great examples, and obviously, you clearly are a heavy user of it.
我可是Ask的忠实用户。
I'm an Ask junkie.
我也经常用。
I use it a lot too.
说实话，我发现自己会在一些意想不到的场景里用到它。
And actually, I have found myself using it in use cases that I wouldn't have expected, honestly.
你举的那些跑步的例子很生动，它确实能帮到你，让你跑得更好。
You gave some very clear examples of your running journey, how it helps you with that, and makes you a better runner.
我甚至会在娱乐的时候用它。
I'll use it even in kind of- ... entertainment type situation.
比如，我有两个小女儿。
So for example, I have two young daughters.
如果我和她们一起听音乐视频，我可以问问歌词的灵感来源，或者她唱到某个具体细节时到底是什么意思。
If I'm listening to a music video with them, I can ask about sort of the inspiration of the lyrics, or what did she mean actually by this very specific thing.
这真的很有趣，让我不仅能享受音乐和视频，还能更深入地了解这位歌手。
And it's just kind of a super fun use case that allows me to enjoy the music, of course, and the music video, but actually go a little bit deeper with the artist.
从这个角度来说，这就像是一种非常自然、有机的方式去使用YouTube。
And in that sense, it's kind of like this very kind of organic, sort of very natural way of engaging with YouTube.
在这种情况下，它让我和我的女儿们更贴近那位艺术家。
It brings me and my daughters, in this case, closer to that particular artist.
但回到你最初的问题，就是它是怎么来的，以及这种合作是怎么运作的，这其实是一个很典型的例子，展示了YouTube和Google DeepMind之间几乎每天都在进行的混合团队合作，因为它是靠Gemini驱动的。
But back to your core question of how it came about and how that partnership works, that is a very classic example of daily, almost sort of blended teams across YouTube and Google DeepMind because it is powered by Gemini.
当然，你在使用体验中也能感受到这一点。
And of course, you can get a sense of that in the experience.
但我们在YouTube这个特定场景下所做的，就是真正让它围绕着你正在观看的那个视频来展开。
But what we did in the YouTube context specifically is really make it about that video that you're engaging in.
我之所以指出这一点，是因为这是一种为观众或消费者提供价值的方式，同时也把创作者拉了进来。
And the reason I point that out is it's like a way to deliver something for you as a viewer or consumer, but to bring the creator into the fold, too.
我觉得这正是这种体验在YouTube上独特的地方，就是它围绕着视频本身。
And I think that that's what makes that experience sort of unique to YouTube, which is like, it is about the video.
它关乎创作者在那个视频里说了什么，你刚才描述的例子是，有时候你想快速找到某个具体问题的答案，但还有很多很多其他的例子，比如深入探讨视频中的某个概念，或者跳来跳去地看，对吧？
It's about what the creator is saying in that video, and you're describing an example where sometimes you want to get to the point around a particular thing, but there are many, many other examples which are going deeper about a particular concept in that video, or jumping around, right?
就是这类东西。
Like those types of things.
所以我们想创造一种既能很好地服务观众、听众、观看者和用户，也能很好地服务创作者的东西。
And so we wanted to create something that worked really well for our viewers and listeners, watchers, users, but also for our creators.
那个“提问”功能就是这种理念的体现，而且你可以期待我们会继续在这个功能上创新。
And that Ask experience is a version of that, and you should expect us to continue to innovate on that experience.
其中一个例子就是我们在I/O大会上宣布的，我想大概是几个月前，就是把类似的对话体验——以视频为核心、以创作者为核心的对话体验——也带到YouTube的搜索功能中。
One example being what we announced at I/O now, I think, a couple of months ago, which is to bring that similar type of conversational experience, video forward, creator forward, conversational experience to the search experience on YouTube as well.
所以我对这个非常期待。
So I'm very excited about that.
我不知道你有没有试过那个……
I don't know if you've played around with that on-
那个今天上线，对吧？
That's launching today, right?
嗯，我们已经有一个版本了……
Well, we've had a version-
或者在YouTube上做的
Or made on YouTube
……我们在电脑上已经有一个版本了。
... we've had a version available on desktop.
我们想把它带到其他设备上——
We want to bring it to other surfaces-
包括你家最大的屏幕，就像你说的，很多人都在那里看YouTube。
... including the biggest screen in your home, where, as you said, lots and lots of people watch YouTube.
当然，在那里你会遇到语音激活之类的挑战。
And there, of course, you have the challenge of voice activation and things like that.
但你可以想象，通过这种体验，你现在可以做什么，比如：“YouTube，你能帮我计划和妻子去巴黎的旅行吗？”对吧？
But you can imagine what you can now do through that experience, which is like, "YouTube, can you help me plan my trip with my wife to Paris," right?
然后——
And-
哦
Oh
它是一份视频列表，但也许不仅仅是视频列表。
... it's a list of videos, but maybe it's more than a list of videos.
也许它指向视频中的具体片段。
Maybe it's specific points in the videos.
也许它包含一些文字说明，一步步教你如何规划行程。
Maybe it is some text describing sort of how to set up an itinerary step by step.
所以，这是一种更丰富的体验，就像你在观看页面上的“提问”功能一样。
So, like a much richer type of an experience, just like you're familiar with Ask on the Watch page.
所以，你可以看到——
So, as you can tell-
……
...
我对这个真的非常兴奋。
I'm getting very excited about this.
但这是DeepMind、Gemini和YouTube紧密合作的一个例子，为每天来到YouTube的数十亿观众带来巨大的好处。
But this is an example of close collaboration between DeepMind and Gemini and YouTube to deliver a really big win for billions of viewers who come to YouTube every single day.
所以，就像我说的，YouTube里面蕴含了太多有价值的信息。
So, as I said, it's so much valuable information is baked within YouTube.
所以，如果你去搜索，询问具体的建议或旅行帮助，它能通过浏览大量不同的视频有效地把答案呈现出来，那真的很酷，还会给你链接。
And so if you are going into search and you're asking for specific advice or help with a trip, and it can effectively print it out by running across a bunch of different videos, that's pretty cool, giving you a link in.
那些制作这些视频的创作者，他们制作时并没有考虑到AI时代。
The creators that make those videos off, they didn't make them thinking through the AI era.
我想，如果你制作了一个视频，你当然希望人们能找到你视频里包含的信息。
I would imagine that if you make a video, you kind of want people to be able to find the information that you've embedded in your video.
你希望人们来看你的视频。
You're going to want people to come in and watch it.
那么，这如何改变创作者的处境呢？比如一个创作者可能会说：“我制作了一个15分钟的视频，投入了很多制作成本，我在里面讲了如何跑马拉松。”
So how does that change the creator equation where a creator might be like, "Well, I made this 15-minute video with a lot of production value where I talk through how to run a marathon.
现在有人在搜索，他们能直接看到我分享的所有内容，以文字形式呈现，而我的视频却没有获得观看量。”
And now somebody's in search, and they can get everything that I shared just presented to them in text where I don't get a view on my video."
我们发现的是——这个问题有很多方面。
What we have found-- So there's a lot to that question.
好的。
Okay.
首先我想说的是，Ask体验是以视频和创作者为核心的。
The first thing that I would say is that the Ask experience is video forward, it's creator forward.
所以它会优先展示那些视频，而YouTube能带给这种体验的独特之处就是视频本身。
So it will surface those videos, and as one of the things that's unique about YouTube that YouTube can bring to this experience is video.
而且事实证明，很多学习内容，比如你提到的跑步例子，文字虽然可以，但你真的需要看视频或者实际参与视频的某些部分才能真正理解——
And it turns out that a lot of learning, like your running examples being really good ones, is text is okay, but you kind of have to watch the video or actually engage in parts of the video to really understand-
……深入理解这个概念或者什么的，对吧？
... deeply what the concept is or what have you, right?
比如怎么修车库门，那是一种需要一步步看视频的体验，只有Ask YouTube这种体验才能把这种内容突出出来。
Like how to fix a garage door, that's a video kind of step-by-step type of an experience, and only that kind of Ask YouTube type experience can bring that to the fore.
所以这就是我们目前看到的情况，这也是为什么我认为，总体来说，你还没有看到这些视频的消费受到什么影响。
And so that's what we're seeing, and that's why I think, generally speaking, you don't see an impact on sort of the consumption of those videos as of yet.
显然，这一切都还处于初期阶段。
Obviously, this is all new.
另外，当然要记住的是，从YouTube整体使用情况来看，这其实只是很小的一部分，对吧？
The other thing, of course, to keep in mind is that in the grand scheme of engagement with YouTube, this is sort of a sliver of that, right?
很多人在YouTube上主要是用电视屏幕看自己喜欢的纪录片，那才是主要的体验，对吧？
Lots of YouTube is about watching your favorite documentary on a television screen, and that's the experience, right?
所以，把所有那些——然后我要说的第三点是，我觉得这些新体验会成为一种方式，把那些新鲜的内容，或者可能没怎么获得关注的内容，重新呈现出来。
So taking all those-- And then the third thing I would say is that these new experiences, I feel, are going to be ways to surface up- ... fresh pieces of content or content that might not have gotten a lot of views.
因为在一段十分钟的视频里，可能有两分钟是精华，真正触及了你可能在AskYouTube上提出的那个非常冷门问题的核心，而以前这些内容没有被正确地呈现出来。
Because it actually has out of a 10-minute video, there's two minutes of gold that are really getting at the essence of this very, very esoteric query that you might have asked in AskYouTube, that previously wasn't being surfaced in the right way.
我觉得这对创作者来说当然是个好事，但同时也是——
And that, I would argue, is a win, of course, for that creator, but also-
对你这样的观众，或者想在YouTube上学点东西的人来说，也是个好事。
... a win for you as a viewer or a person who's trying to learn something on YouTube.
好，我们看看能不能来个快问快答。
Okay, let's see if we can lightning round.
我们还有十分钟，所以快速过一些其他可能偏商业但非AI的问题。
We have 10 minutes left, so lightning round through a bunch of other maybe business, but non-AI questions.
好的。
Sure.
NFL周日门票。
NFL Sunday Ticket.
你们怎么防止这些黑屏问题？
How do you prevent all these blackouts?
我订阅了想看一些比赛，但因为住在纽约，看不了喷气机队的比赛。
I signed up to get some games, but because I live in New York, couldn't watch the Jets.
这好像是个问题。
Seems like an issue.
你问这个，大概是因为那场喷气机队的比赛是全国直播的。
Because you're asking presumably because that Jets game was a national game.
嗯，这个嘛——
Well, the way it-
也许YouTube不让我看那些比赛是在帮我呢。
Maybe YouTube was doing me a favor by blocking the games from me.
喷气机队，总是有希望的，对吧？
Jets, there's always hope, right?
一胜一负。
One and one.
这是个不错的开局。
That's a good start.
我想说的是，我们遵循的规则基本上是，周日票是面向家庭以外地区的套餐。
What I would say is, we follow the rules that basically Sunday Ticket is an out-of-home package.
这就是它的设计初衷。
That's the way it's designed.
所以，如果你所在的市场是喷气机队的主场，那么无论你的转播合作伙伴是谁，你都能看到他们的比赛。
So, if it is in your home market and it's the Jets, they're going to be available through whoever your broadcast partner is or what have you.
或者这场比赛是全国直播的，对吧？
Or the game might be a national game, right?
在这种情况下，它也是——
In which case it's also-
……
...
在周日票之外也能看到，但你也能看到。
available outside of Sunday Ticket, but available to you.
所以它确实是一个离家观看的套餐，无论你是远离你最喜欢的球队，还是只是对另一组球队感兴趣。
So it really is a out-of-home package, whether you're away from who your favorite team is or you're just interested in a different set of teams.
这就是周日票的核心价值所在。
And that has been the core value proposition of Sunday Ticket.
我们现在已经进入第四个赛季了。
We're on Season 4 now.
每年我们都试图带来一些创新，稍微扩大市场，在如何引入创作者等方面进行创新。
Every year we try to bring some innovation to it that sort of expands the market a little bit, innovates in terms of how we bring creators, for example, to the table.
所以我们正在这样做，但这是对你问题的长回答——
And so we're doing that, but that's kind of the long answer to your-
……关于喷气机队的问题。
... Jets question.
所以这是联盟层面的问题。
So it's a league question.
这确实是联盟层面的问题，但同时也是——
It's certainly a league question, but it's also one-
NFL必须解决这个问题。
The NFL has to fix that
——同时也是全国与地方的问题，而且Sunday Ticket是这种离家在外、非本地球队的套餐。
... it's also one of just kind of national versus local, and the fact that Sunday Ticket is this out-of-home package, out-of-market package.
说到直播内容，Netflix现在大力投入，想做更多直播。
When it comes to live content, something that Netflix is really going big into, trying to do more live.
你有多大程度想自己编排内容，还是想购买、授权或提供这些内容？
How much of that do you want to program yourself, or do you want to buy it or license it or make it available?
我觉得直播内容，尤其是体育直播，有意思的地方在于，至少在我看来，直播的好处是它自己会编排，对吧？
I think the interesting thing about live content and live sports in particular, at least sort of how I think about it, is the nice thing about live is it programs itself, right?
我们和NFL有合作。
We have a partnership with the NFL.
这是一个深度的合作关系。
It's a deep partnership.
在Sunday Ticket这个项目上，他们一直是非常好的合作伙伴。
They have been great partners on this Sunday Ticket journey.
但好处在于，比赛本身我们不用去编排，或者说，我们不会去“挑选”比赛。
But the nice thing about it is the games, we don't script the games or we don't, quote-unquote, "pick the games."
比赛是自然发生的，对吧？
The games script themselves, right?
所以从这个角度来说，它更像你在YouTube上看到的内容。
So in that sense, it's more akin to what you would sort of expect to see on YouTube.
科切拉音乐节也是一样的，对吧？
Coachella's the same way, right?
这个为期三天、连续两个周末的现场直播，就这样自然而然地发生了。
This live three-day times two weekends long live stream that happens.
但我们不会去决定贾斯汀·比伯在舞台上做什么，或者萨布丽娜·卡彭特在舞台上做什么。
But we're not deciding what Justin Bieber does on stage, or Sabrina Carpenter does on stage.
他们自己决定，对吧？
They decide, right?
他们是舞台上的创作者。
They're the creators on the stage.
所以这就是我对直播的看法。
And so that's how I think about live.
直播一直是YouTube非常重要的部分，对吧？
Live has always been a very important part of YouTube, right?
你知道，我们最早的一些创作者是做游戏直播的。
As you know, some of our OG creators were gaming creators.
他们很多内容都是直播，对吧？
A lot of what they do is live stream, right?
所以直播一直是YouTube的核心部分，这也是我对直播活动的看法，至少它们在YouTube上的定位是这样的。
And so live has always been this kind of core aspect of YouTube, and that's how I think about live events, at least in terms of their home on YouTube.
实际上，就在这周，我们宣布的很多新产品都是围绕直播的，对吧？
And we're doing actually, even this week, a lot of the new products that we're announcing are actually around live streaming, right?
说到之前提到的AI，自动配音功能，对吧？
Being able to bring, speaking of AI earlier, auto-dubbing, right?
其中一个-
One of the-
YouTube上杀手级的AI功能，对吧？
... killer AI features on YouTube, right?
应用到直播环境-
To the live environment-
这样就能扩大直播主播的观众群。
... and expanding live streamers' audiences that way.
所以大体上这就是我对直播的看法。
So that's generally sort of how I think about live.
Netflix正试图把成功的YouTube播客作为增长引擎，而且我认为他们禁止在Netflix上运营播客的创作者在YouTube上继续运营。
Netflix is trying to take successful YouTube podcasts and use them as a growth engine, and I think prohibit the creators who run their podcasts on Netflix from running them on YouTube.
我觉得如果你是创作者，这样做可能是个糟糕的选择。
I think if you're a creator doing that, it's probably a bad choice.
从竞争的角度来看，你怎么看待这个问题？你会失去一些顶级创作者，而竞争对手会给他们设置独家要求。
How do you think about that from a competitive standpoint, where you're going to lose some of your top creators and your competitors will put exclusivity requirements in front of them?
我觉得总的来说，当我和创作者交流时——顺便说一句，这并不新鲜。
I think generally speaking, when I speak with creators-- And by the way, this is not new.
这种情况已经存在一段时间了，就是说，如果一个创作者因为在YouTube上的成功而在YouTube之外也取得了成功，我认为这是非常积极的事情。
This has existed for some time, which is, if a creator finds success off of YouTube because of their success on YouTube, I think that's a really positive thing.
MrBeast，我们之前提到过Jimmy。
MrBeast, we were speaking about Jimmy earlier.
他当然是一个非常成功的YouTuber。
He is, of course, an enormously successful YouTuber.
看看他每周在每个视频上投入的精力和创意——
Look at the amount of effort and creativity-
——他每周在每个视频上投入的精力和创意。
... he puts into every single one of his videos every week.
但他在YouTube之外也取得了巨大的成功。
But he has had enormous success outside of YouTube.
还有游戏节目、书，等等等等。
A game show, a book, on and on and on.
我觉得这很有价值，因为你去他办公室的时候，他的首要规则之一就是YouTube优先。
And I think that's valuable because when you go to his offices, one of his first rules is YouTube first.
他明白YouTube是他的家，也是所有成功的源泉。
He recognizes that YouTube is his home and the font of all of that success.
而且我觉得一般来说，当我和创作者交流时，我们谈的就是这些。
And I think generally speaking, when I speak with creators, that's the conversation I have.
当然，鉴于这一切，YouTube创作者已经成为一种文化现象，在文化中占据重要地位，其他流媒体平台自然也注意到了这一点，说实话，我觉得这对我们的创作者来说是一种荣幸。
Now, of course, given all of this, the cultural phenomenon that YouTube creators are and this sort of juggernaut that they are in the culture out there, of course other streaming platform services have taken note, and frankly, I think that's flattering to our creators.
而且，顺便说一句，这也不是第一次发生这种情况了。
And, by the way, this is not the first time this has happened.
我在YouTube待了这么久，知道多年来其他平台和服务也曾经尝试过类似的事情。
I've been at YouTube long enough to know that there are other platforms and services that have sort of made a run at this over the years.
……时不时地。
... periodically.
我们的工作就是确保创作者们觉得YouTube是他们的主要阵地，我们也是通过这种方式和他们互动的。
And our job is to make sure that our creators feel like their primary home is YouTube, and that's how we engage with them.
而且这些对话其实都是量身定制的，因为每个创作者在业务上追求的东西都不太一样。
And all of these conversations are actually pretty bespoke, because what every creator is looking for in their business is slightly different.
你对自己的业务的看法，和某个播客主或YouTube博主肯定不一样，所以我和我的团队的任务就是倾听你的想法，然后真正为你打造一些东西，让你觉得在YouTube上我们确实在听你的，不管是功能上的改进，还是帮你对接品牌合作，或者其他什么。
You think about your business differently than XYZ podcaster or XYZ YouTuber, and it's my job and my team's job to listen to that and actually create something for you that feels like we're listening to you on YouTube, whether it's a feature, whether it's helping you with brand deals or what have you.
另一个让我非常兴奋的领域，就是把创作者——
That's another area that I'm very excited about, is connecting creators-
——和品牌连接起来。
... and brands together.
所以基本上我们就是这么做的。
So that's sort of how we do it.
我们一直在试点这个项目。
We've been piloting that.
这是个不错的项目。
It's a good program.
好的。
All right.
还有两个问题。
Two more.
最近YouTube计算观看次数的方式发生了变化。
There's been a recent change on the way that YouTube counts views.
我其实不太懂这个变化，但我能告诉你的是，YouTube上好像出现了严重的“分数膨胀”，我制作的视频——我估计比以前多了30%到40%的观看次数。
Now, I don't fully understand it, but all I can tell you is it seems like there's some serious grade inflation going on YouTube, where the videos that I'm producing are-- My estimate is 30 or 40% more views than they were previously.
这背后的想法是什么？我们以后看YouTube上的观看次数时，是不是应该把这个因素考虑进去？
What's the thinking behind this, and should we start having that context in mind when looking at view counts on YouTube?
我在YouTube工作最喜欢的一点就是，每次我们调整一个功能或特性——反馈都是即时的。
One of the favorite parts about my job at YouTube is any time we tweak a feature or functionality- ... the feedback is instantaneous.
不管是好是坏，我都感激这些反馈，而且这种情况已经持续了好几年。
And I appreciate it, good and bad, and that has happened for years.
其实，这个问题的答案很简单，Alex，就是我们从多年前最初定义“观看”时的起点，发展到了现在这个多平台、多格式的时代。
And really, the answer on this one is very simple, Alex, which is we have gone from where we started years ago when that original definition of the view was created, to one where we are multi-surface, multi-format.
就像我说的，从这些直播到传统的点播视频、长视频，再到短视频，都是如此。
Like I said, everything from these live streams to traditional VOD videos, long-form videos, to Shorts.
直到最近，我们统计短视频的方式都和统计点播视频的方式不一样。
We counted Shorts until very recently in a way that was different than what we counted VODs.
我觉得你也可以说，那样其实也不太对。
And I think that you could argue that that wasn't right either.
为什么？就因为视频超过一定时长或者横屏播放，它的公开观看次数就和短视频的统计方式不一样了。
Why, just because this is over a certain time length or done horizontally it would have a different view count to it, public view count to it, than what we did on Shorts.
所以我们就是想把它们统一起来，让它们用完全相同的方式被统计。
And so we just tried to make those things uniform so that they are counted in exactly the same way.
我们其实在几年前或者一年前就已经对短视频做了这个调整，具体时间我记不清了，但现在我们只是想让整个YouTube保持一致，仅此而已。
We had made that change to Shorts a couple of years ago, or a year ago, I can't remember exactly when, but now we want to just be consistent across all of YouTube, and that's all we did.
顺便说一下，对于创作者来说，你知道的，当你进入创作者工作室时，你仍然会看到有效观看次数，对吧？
By the way, for creators, as you know, when you go into Studio, you still see engaged views, right?
所以你仍然有那种校准标准，可以按照你以前对观看次数的理解来参考。
So you still have that sort of calibration of how you may have thought about a view before.
顺便说一下，我们的系统在把观看次数纳入推荐等因素时，也是这么运作的。
And by the way, that's also how our systems work in terms of factoring views into recommendations and those types of things.
所以我们这么做，其实主要是为了让产品更统一、更简单。
And so it was really just more about uniformity and simplicity in the product that we did that.
所以我觉得这更像是一个澄清，而不是什么改变，而且这两种观看次数对创作者来说仍然都是可用的。
And so I view it more as a clarification as opposed to anything that changed, and both those views are still available to creators.
好的，太好了。
Okay, great.
我们只剩两分钟了，所以我就用这个来结尾。
We have two minutes left, so this is what I'll close with.
对于我们这些外部的人来说，谷歌似乎正在浮现出两个未来。
For those of us on the outside, it seems like there might be two futures of Google emerging.
一个是媒体广告这边，你从那边出来，现在在YouTube这边，然后还有云这边。
There's the media ad side, which you come out of and which you're currently in within YouTube, and then there's kind of this cloud side.
当你想到谷歌的未来时，这两者能共存吗？
When you think about the future of Google, can those two exist together?
那你觉得未来谷歌的主要业务会是哪一个？
And which one would you think will be the primary Google of the future?
哦，我觉得这个问题对我来说挺明确的，毕竟我在谷歌待了很长时间。
Oh, I think that that's, at least in my mind, pretty clear, which is, and I've been at Google a very long time.
能见证谷歌的各个方面，真的是一种荣幸。
It's been a real privilege to see all these aspects of Google.
这家公司最厉害的地方在于，所有这些业务都能在谷歌内部取得成功。
And what's amazing about the company is all of these pieces can be successful within Google.
所以很明显，我们的云业务、核心业务，比如搜索和广告，当然还有YouTube。
So obviously, our cloud business, our core businesses, search and ads, and then of course, YouTube.
不过我对YouTube的描述可能和你说的有点不一样，我觉得它本质上是一家科技公司。
And the way that I describe YouTube is actually a little bit different than the way you talked about it, which is at its core, it is a technology company.
就像我说的，我们为深度的产品创新感到自豪。
Like I said, we pride ourselves in our deep product innovation.
这就是YouTube的核心所在。
That's what YouTube is all about.
今年我们已经推出了超过3000项新功能，把最好的技术带到这个体验中，我觉得这就是谷歌在所有事情上的共同核心。
We've had over 3,000 launches this year in terms of bringing the best of technology to this experience, and I think that is the common core of Google, in everything that we do.
你刚才提到，比如Gemini如何与谷歌的各个方面结合，把AI应用到所有这些产品中。
You described, for example, how Gemini works with every facet of Google and bringing AI to bear across all of these products.
那只是一个方面，YouTube做的很多事情都建立在谷歌那套非常深厚的技术栈上，这让我们能够为创作者、观众和品牌打造所有这些很棒的功能，而且我不觉得这种情况会改变。
That's one facet, but so much of what YouTube does sits on that sort of incredibly deep Google technology stack that allows us to actually build all these amazing features for our creators and viewers and brands, and I don't expect that to change.
如果有变化的话，只会是未来几年加速发展，同时希望我们的云业务以及其他我们带给用户的新产品和业务也能继续增长。
If anything, only it'll accelerate over the years to come, alongside the hopeful continued growth of our cloud businesses or whatever other new products and businesses we bring to our users.
尼尔，确实是个充满变化的时代。
Well, Neal, dynamic times indeed.
非常感谢你抽出时间。
Thank you so much for your time.
很感激。
Appreciate it.
谢谢你邀请我，亚历克斯。
Thank you so much for having me, Alex.
好的。
All right.
感谢大家的收听和观看，我们下期《大科技播客》再见。
Thanks everybody for listening and watching, and we'll see you next time on "Big Technology Podcast."
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