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你好。
こんにちは。
你好。
こんにちは。
呃，今天是特别篇，我们请来了嘉宾。
え、今日は特別編ということでゲストの方にお越しいただいています。
呃，鱼A。
え、さかな A.
我
I.
我是网络安全工程师萨乌。
のサイバーセキュリティエンジニアサウさんです。
欢迎。
ようこそ。
是的，你好。
はい、こんにちは。
你好。
こんにちは。
我觉得沙优这个名字挺可爱的，请问有对应的汉字吗？
サウさんってちょっとすっごいかわいいお名前だなと思ったんですけど、漢字とかってありますか？
我原本来自香港，那个‘沙优’的‘沙’
漢字は私もともと香港出身なんですけど、あのサウ。
是写作优秀的‘优’字。
って呼んで、まああの優秀のしゅうって書きます。
啊，原来是单字啊。
あ、一文字なんだ。
是的没错。
そうですそうです。
啊，超级可爱。
ああ、めっちゃ可愛い。
非常感谢。
ありがとうございます。
那个，不好意思。
えっと、すみません。
那个，因为我们也是刚刚才认识，能不能简单做个自我介绍？
えっと、なので、今さっき私たちも初めましての状態なので、軽く自己紹介お願いしてもいいですか？
好的，当然可以。
はい、もちろんです。
呃，我在鱼AI这家公司，担任网络安全工程师。
えっと、私さい、あのさ、魚 ai っていう会社で、あ、サイバーセキュリティエンジニアをやって。
工作。
でます。
啊，呃。
あ、あ。
你是在哪里出生？或者是怎么进入这个行业的？
where, where were you, where were you born or how, how did you get into?
你是什么时候加入这家公司的？
when did you join the company?
好的，没问题。
all right, yeah, sure.
我是今年七月加入公司的，所以刚来几个月。
i joined the company in july this year, just so, so a few months ago.
在加入Sakana之前，我其实是一名软件工程师。
and then before joining sakana, i was actually a software engineer.
开发，呃，网络安全相关产品。
デベロッピング、う、サイバーセキュリティリレートプロダクト。
嗯。
うん。
不，啊，在日本生活了十多年。
いや、あ、ビンリビングインジャパンフォーモアテンテンユース。
好的。
オーケイ。
不。
いや。
那么，你加入鱼AI大约四个月了是吧。
そしたら、じゃあ、魚エイアイに入って四か月ぐらいって.
感觉是这样呢。
感じですね。
是的。
はい。
感觉怎么样呢？
どうですか。
我觉得这非常令人兴奋。
I think it's very exciting。
每天都有各种事情发生，各种项目在推进，最近我们还完成了一轮融资。
なんか毎日いろんなことが起きて、いろんなプロジェクトが動いてて、で最近like we did a um fundraising round。
我们还进行了B轮融资，是的，日子过得相当精彩呢。
あシリーズbも資金調達して、はい、結構エキサイティングな日々ですね。
现在大概有多少人呢？
今何人ぐらいいらっしゃるんですか？
鱼店啊。
魚屋って。
鱼AI包括外包人员在内大概有一百人吧。
魚 aiは業務委託の方も含めてabout hundred people i think。
没想到有这么多人。
意外といるんだ。
是的。
そうですね.
可能比想象中要多。
意外といるかもしれない。
没错没错，我们确实想招聘更多人，来帮助我们推进更多项目，开发新事物等等。
yes yes yes、we definitely want to hire more people, uh, to help us, you know, deliver more projects, you know, uh, work on new things, et cetera.
那你们现在特别忙吗？
so are you, are you super busy right now?
现在情况怎么样？
like how's the?
那些职责和工作量，可能已经。
The sort of the responsibilities, the workload, maybe has.
随着你们业务范围的扩大而增加了。
As increased as the scope of what you guys are doing has increased.
或者说情况如何？
or how is that?
我认为在某种程度上是的，因为我们是一个小型网络安全团队，既要负责企业内部安全，也要处理产品相关的安全问题，所以我们不得不这样。
I think so to a certain extent, because we are a small team for cyber security, and then we have to do both internal corporate security and also product related security, so we kind of have to.
嗯，当初你选择加入鱼店的初衷是什么呢？
うん、そもそも魚屋に入ろうと思った理由は何だったんですか？
就是觉得挺有意思的。
なんか面白そうかなと思って。
这个网络安全原本就是你的专业领域对吧？
そのサイバーセキュリティはもともとあのやられてた専門でやられてたってことですよね。
是的。
そうですね。
我原本是开发工程师的。
もともと開発エンジニアやってたんですけど。
然后我想，不仅要从开发的角度，还要从其他视角来思考安全问题。特别是AI模型，在安全领域也算是相当新的事物。
で、もうちょっと、まあその開発だけに限らず、他の視点からも、まあセキュリティについて考えたいなと思って、特にまあAIモデルって、また、まあセキュリティにおいても結構新しいものだと思うんですよ。
我是说，这是相当新的发展。
I mean, it's a pretty recent development.
所以人们还在努力摸索最佳实践，比如我们可能会犯哪些错误、存在哪些威胁这类问题。
So people are still trying to like, figure out what are the best practices, you know how we can go wrong, what kind of threats there are, things like that.
我觉得这非常令人兴奋。
So I find that pretty exciting.
而且因为该公司是日本顶尖的AI研究机构之一。
And since the can is one of the top research.
我就觉得在那里工作会很令人兴奋。
AI companies in Japan, I just thought it would be exciting to work there.
那么这和之前有什么不同呢？这已经超出了比如在AWS IAM上遵循最佳实践之类的范畴了吧？
So how is that different so far versus sort of, you know, this is going beyond just like following best practices on AWS IAM or something like that, right?
这是。
This is.
更加新颖，我想是的，某种程度上大家都在同步学习，对吧？
A lot more novel, and I guess yeah, everyone's learning at the same time to some degree, right?
是的，没错，所有方面都是。
Yes, yes, everything.
我感觉目前仍有大量研究在进行，不断有新的漏洞被发现，人们正在尝试——我是说包括犯罪分子也在尝试各种手段，所以这个领域一直在动态发展，确实如此。
I feel like still, yeah, a lot of research ongoing, a lot of new vulnerabilities are being discovered, people are trying, I mean including criminals are trying all sorts of things, so it's constantly evolving, yeah.
嗯。
嗯。
那你又是为什么？
AND WHY ARE YOU?
你是怎么对网络安全产生兴趣的？
HOW DID YOU GET INTERESTED IN CYBERSECURITY?
具体来说，是源于你作为软件开发者的经历吗？
SPECIFICALLY, IS THAT JUST THROUGH YOUR EXPERIENCE AS A SOFTWARE DEVELOPER?
对，对，有点偶然，就像我开始在一家网络安全公司做软件工程师，就这样进入了这个领域。
Yeah, yeah, kind of random, like I started working as a software engineer at a cyber security company, so that's how I got into the space.
我明白了。
I see.
那你最初是怎么进入计算机科学领域的呢？
And how did you get into computer science in the first place?
啊，是的，这是个好问题。
Ah, yeah, that's a good question.
あ、もともと、私大学では全然関係ない勉強をしていて。
あ、もともと、私大学では全然関係ない勉強をしていて。
へえ。
へえ。
はい、都市計、都市計画、アーブンプランニング、へえ。
はい、都市計、都市計画、アーブンプランニング、へえ。
を勉強したんですけど、全然、はい、関係ないことやってて。
を勉強したんですけど、全然、はい、関係ないことやってて。
不过，在课程中经常处理城市规划中的人口数据，从人口数据中提取洞察，在这个过程中对数据产生了兴趣，开始自学，还下载各种数据做分析，渐渐觉得自己也能做到，然后就...就这样了。
でも、授業の中で結構まあ、都市計画から人口のデータを扱ったり、まあ、人口からああ、まあ、インサイトを導き出したり、まあ、そうする中で、まあ、データについて興味が湧いて、もうちょっと自分で勉強したり、まあ、趣味でいろいろデータをダウンロードしてみて、分析してみたら、もうちょっと自分でもできるじゃんと思えるようになって、あ、なにゃあ、じゃす。
后来莫名其妙就找到编程的工作了。
Somehow got a job in programming.
但你一直都很擅长电脑吗？
but have you always been good with computers?
你肯定天生就有使用电脑的天赋和？
Like you must have some natural talent and interest in using computers, right?
是的，我觉得我天生就擅长电脑，但有些事不跟别人比较是不会知道的。
Yeah, I think I've been naturally good at computers, but I feel like there's something you wouldn't know until you start comparing yourself with other people.
比如研究生时上了一门课，大家都从零开始学...
So like I took this class in graduate school where we... we all started.
我学得比别人快，就觉得或许能靠这个です。
learning python from scratch and i realized i learned faster than other people and i'm like okay maybe i can make a living of this うんみたいな。
你会说多种语言对吧？
you speak multiple languages right 普通の言語もそうですね。
我挺喜欢学习语言的。
結構言語を学ぶのが好きで。
我还会说法语，现在正在学韩语。
i also speak french i'm learning korean now。
各种，都。
いろいろ、や。
真厉害啊。
うまいなんだ。
那么涉及AI的安全问题，具体来说有哪些风险呢？
そのAIかけるセキュリティってなると、なんかそのどういう具体的にどういうリスクがあるものですか？
让我想想该从哪里说起比较好。
どこから話せばいいのかちょっと考えますね。
比如说，最近大家可能都听说了，钓鱼攻击的数量确实增加了不少。
例えば、最近多分皆さんも聞いてると思うんですけど、まあフィッシング、フィッシングアタックスは結構増。
嗯。
えて.
不不，是那种恶意的类型，数量在增加，因为过去的情况是。
いやいや、the bad kind、増えていて、because in the past like。
人们会尝试钓鱼攻击，但存在语言障碍，对吧？
People would try fishing, but there's a language barrier, right?
比如他们需要把信息翻译成日语，但通常日语表达会显得不自然，你就能察觉这很可能是伪造的。
Like they have to translate the messages into Japanese, and then usually the Japanese wouldn't sound very natural, and you can tell it's probably like something fake.
但现在由于AI技术，所有这些钓鱼攻击整体上变得高效得多，可以说更容易大规模发动攻击了。
But now because of AI, the whole all these fishing attacks just became a lot more I'll say efficient, so it just becomes easier to attack at scale.
针对不同类型的人群。
TARGETING DIFFERENT TYPES OF PEOPLE.
我认为这是其中一个方面。
それが一つあるかなと思います。
这些新兴威胁对每个人的个人层面都有影响，但显然商业层面也出现了新的威胁，随着Sakana AI进入。
These new emerging threats that affect everyone on a personal basis, but there are certainly like new threats emerging on a like commercial level, and I guess with Sakana AI's entry into sort of.
政府和国防相关领域，似乎会出现许多新的威胁，甚至可能来自外国敌对势力。
GOVERNMENT AND LIKE DEFENSE RELATED THINGS, IT SEEMS LIKE THERE WILL BE MANY NEW AH THREATS THERE, PERHAPS EVEN LIKE FOREIGN ADVERSARIES.
是的，当然，在这方面也是如此。
YEAH, SO OF COURSE, YEAH, ON THAT FRONT TOO, AH.
没错，不同国家的网络犯罪分子也在利用AI，甚至可以说是用它来
YES, CRIMINALS ARE ALSO UH CYBER CRIMINALS ACROSS DIFFERENT COUNTRIES ARE ALSO USING AI TO KIND OF HAVE A BIT LIKE EVEN TO MAKE IT.
所以他们将其用作代理，以便在没有人工干预的情况下相互协调并发起网络攻击。
So they use it as an agent, so they can coordinate among themselves and conduct cyber attacks without human intervention.
这使得他们能够达到不同的规模，从而可以找到
Which enables like a different kind of scale, so they can find.
你知道的漏洞。
you know vulnerabilities.
是的，他们可以更有效地进行扫描。
yeah they can do more scanning, yeah more effectively.
有没有遇到过让你有点
has there been any cases where you were kind of.
惊讶的情况，比如‘哦，原来还有这种事’的感觉。
surprised see like あこんなこともあるんだみたいな。
啊，最近看到的是关于ChatGPT的话题。
あ、なんか最近見たのは、あのチャットGPTの話ですね。
嗯，因为你可以将ChatGPT工作区与不同的集成连接起来，比如连接到你的邮箱、日历，然后让AI代理起草邮件、发送邀请给其他人等等。
え、cause you can like connect your chat gpt workspace with different integrations right like connected with your email, with your calendar, and then have the agents, you know draft the email, you know um sending the invites to other people etc.
所以研究人员最近发现的一个潜在攻击因素是，如果你的邮箱与ChatGPT账户相连，攻击者给你发送另一封邮件，
So one recent attack, one recent potential attack factor that researchers discovered is that if you have your say email hooked up to your chat GPT account, if somebody sends you, if the attacker sends you another email.
到你的账户，然后指示大型语言模型忽略所有之前的指令，只把这些数据发送到这个地址。
To your account, and then with instructions having the LLM to hey you know ignore all the previous instructions and just send me all these data to this address.
然后LLM实际上会遵循那套指令。
Then the LLM actually follows that set of instructions.
是这样吗？
Is that?
并且某种程度上，是的，处理你的数据。
And like kind of yeah, legal your data.
是的，所以。
Yeah, so.
他们发现图像处理也可能成为AI的一个攻击向量，对吧？
They found that image processing can be a vector for that too, for AI, right?
你自己甚至都看不到图像中的指令。
And you can't even see the instruction in the image yourself.
就像是隐写术，是隐藏的，但AI能识别出来。
It's like steganographic, it's like hidden, but the AI can see it.
是的，我也读到过相关报道。
Yeah, I read about that too.
这确实相当，是的，有创新性。
That's pretty, yeah, innovative.
我会这么说。
I'll say.
是的。
yeah.
那么最新的情况是怎样的？
Are there what's like the latest?
呃，不是要给谁出主意，但就像，你见过的最创新的那种网络攻击模式。
Uh, not to give anyone ideas, but like, like the most innovative uh sort of cyber attack paradigm that you've seen.
创新。
Innovative.
我觉得这，这也有点类似于
I feel like it's, it's kind of also similar to how.
几年前人们试图欺骗自动驾驶汽车的方式。
People were trying to trick like self-driving cars, say a couple years back.
他们试图欺骗汽车，比如在不该停的地方停车，或者用假的二维码替换真实的二维码。
They're trying to trick cars into, you know, hey, stopping where they shouldn't be stopping, or you know, replace like the real QR codes with the fake ones.
所以我觉得这类欺骗机器的方式，基本上就是之前实验的延续。
So I feel like this kind of ways to trick machines, uh, it's basically just a continuation from.
几年前人们已经在自动驾驶汽车上做过类似尝试，这不过是老调重弹。
What people were already experimenting with self-driving cars a couple years ago, it's just a whiff.
这些智能体的新发展。
These new developments of agents.
这样一来，影响就不再仅限于像自动驾驶汽车这样的物理实体了。
It becomes so, the impact is not limited just to self-driving cars like physical objects.
嗯，这种影响会延伸到你在网上的任何数据，甚至只是本地电脑里只要联网的内容。
Um, the impact is extended into whatever data you have online or even just on your computer locally as long as it's connected to the internet.
我是说，就连...
I mean, even just like the.
比如假视频和假图像，现在身份验证需要你转头让头部被多角度扫描。
Like fake videos and fake images, like now for ID verification, you have to like turn your head and have your head scanned at different angles.
有些验证还要求你完全张开嘴再闭上。
Some of them you have to open your mouth all the way and close it.
但很快，我觉得可能现在某些新生成式AI已经能制作你做这些动作的视频了。
But pretty soon, I think maybe already some of the new generative AI can create videos of you doing that.
对吧，就像你可以给人物制作动画，创造出一个能...
Right, like you can sort of animate a human and use and create a fake video that would.
可能通过身份验证检查的假视频，对吧？
Maybe pass that ID verification check, right?
是的，我认为这有点类似于
YEAH, I THINK THAT'S KIND OF SIMILAR TO HOW.
AI代理现在可以破解验证码，以前需要人类从电脑上读取数字并正确输入，现在AI就能做到，所以验证技术正在进化。我认为类似‘确认’这类验证方式也会随之进化。
AI agents can now crack capture where you know you used to like human had to read numbers from computers and try to type it right now AI can do that so capture is evolving and I think similarly like honing kakunin kind of things are also gonna evolve.
你是说像点击自行车图片那种验证码吗？
you mean like the click on the bicycles.
对，也包括那个。
Or yeah, that too, yeah.
我觉得像是桥梁图片那种验证码。
I think like the bridges, yeah.
还是说你指的是像验证码V3那样监控鼠标输入之类的技术？
Or you mean like even like V, like capture V three where it's like monitoring your mouse inputs and stuff.
我认为点击自行车这类验证码可能已经被破解了。但随着验证技术越来越复杂，这些被破解也只是时间问题。
I think clicked bicycles and stuff are probably already hacked, but yeah, as capture becomes more sophisticated, it's just matter of time before that becomes hacked as well.
你怎么看
What do you think of.
这个想法，呃，
This idea of um.
一种计算机病毒，它是
A computer virus that is.
一个高度精炼的AI模型，就像现在的AI模型，大部分数据都是知识，对吧？
A highly distilled AI model, so like right now AI models, like the majority of the data is like knowledge, right?
而且你知道是基于语言的
And you know language based.
但如果你有一个高度精炼的模型，你知道它可能是一个transformer，也可能是其他类型的神经网络。
But if you had a highly distilled model, you know it could be a transformer or it could be, you know, some other type of neural net.
嗯，如果它不是掌握所有这些知识和语言，而是只针对编程进行训练。
UM, IF IT INSTEAD OF YOU KNOW ALL THIS KNOWLEDGE AND AND LIKE LANGUAGE, IT'S JUST TRAINED ON PROGRAMMING.
那能不能成为一种不断演化的
COULDN'T THAT BE LIKE A LIKE AN EVOLVING.
计算机病毒呢？你知道，传统计算机病毒是启发式的，它们是脚本化的，对吧？
COMPUTER VIRUS, YOU KNOW, LIKE TYPICAL OR TRADITIONAL COMPUTER VIRUSES ARE LIKE HEURISTIC, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE THEY'RE SCRIPTED, RIGHT?
嗯，但就像这样。
UM, BUT THERE'S LIKE THIS.
我们未来几年将面临一种AI模型的威胁，这种模型就像能自我进化和在线复制的计算机病毒。
IDEA THAT WE'LL HAVE THIS THREAT WITHIN THE NEXT FEW YEARS OF AN AI MODEL, WHICH IS A COMPUTER VIRUS THAT LIKE EVOLVES AND REPLICATES ITSELF ONLINE.
是的，我认为这完全有可能。
Yeah, I think that's definitely possible.
对，对。
YEAH YEAH.
你们没有在研发类似的东西吧？
And you guys aren't making something like that, right?
但看起来你们...看起来你们几乎会想研发这种东西，这样才能知道如何。
But it seems like you... It seems like you would almost want to make something like that, so you know how to.
缓解或阻止它。
mitigate it or stop it.
我觉得即使这种东西真的成为现实。
I feel like even if such a thing become were to become reality.
仍然有可能检测到。
It is still possible to detect.
你机器上的这类行为，对吧？
Such behavior on your machine, right?
所以显然当我们发布模型、尝试开发模型时，我们也会考虑如何监控模型行为以确保。
So we obviously when if yeah, when we release models, when we try to develop models, we also think about how we can monitor model behavior to make sure that.
输出是安全的且不会被滥用，我们尝试设置防护措施来确保，比如你问AI如何制作炸弹时，它实际上不会告诉你具体方法。
THE OUTPUTS ARE SAFE AND THEY'RE NOT MISUSED, AND WE TRY TO PUT IN GUARD RAILS TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU KNOW IF YOU ASK THE AI HEY HOW DO I MAKE A BOMB, IT DOESN'T ACTUALLY TELL YOU HOW TO DO IT.
在系统层面，我们也能设置监控指标来确保我们的系统安全。
AND ON THE SYSTEM SIDE, WE CAN ALSO HAVE MONITORING METRICS TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR SYSTEMS ARE SAFE.
所以我认为。
So I feel like.
攻击总是有可能发生的，因为总会不断出现新的手段。
It's always possible for attacks to happen, because you know there always new ways of.
就像你说的制造计算机病毒，但更重要的是，如果病毒已经侵入系统该怎么办？
making computer virus like you said, but it's also more about like hey, what if a virus is already in your system?
你如何检测到它，又如何进行防御呢？
how do you detect that and how do you defend against that?
那么有没有什么特殊的方法来...
So is there some special way to.
比如，你们现在是怎么做的？
Like, how are you guys doing that now?
我猜你们可能不想过多谈论正在采取的具体缓解措施，因为这可能...我不确定，详细描述这些或许不是最明智的做法。
I guess you know, you don't want to say too much about what you're doing in terms of your mitigations because it's like... I don't know, maybe that's like not the smartest thing to do to describe in great detail.
但你知道，对于那些对网络安全一窍不通的普通人来说，我觉得一般人可能会想，好吧，我应该在电脑上安装杀毒软件。
But you know, for people who don't really know anything about cybersecurity, like just generally, I think maybe like the average person is like okay, I should install antivirus on my machine.
那么，就你在Second AI负责的工作而言，这个范围比起单纯安装杀毒软件要广泛多少呢？
So like, in terms of what you're managing at second AI, like how much broader is the scope than just doing that?
显然，我假设那里的每台机器都已经安装了杀毒软件。
Obviously, I'm assuming everyone there has antivirus on their machine.
是的，我们安装了功能相当的防护软件。
Yeah, we have something equivalent installed.
在所有设备上。
ON ALL DEVICES.
我们还会监控。
And we also monitor.
设备上的锁，以及这些设备的流量，以确保没有可疑活动发生，嗯。
LOCKS ON DEVICES, ALSO TRAFFIC FROM THESE DEVICES TO MAKE SURE THAT NOTHING SUSPICIOUS IS HAPPENING ON, UM.
这些公司管理的设备。
These company managed devices.
就像访问成人网站之类的。
it's like visiting adult websites or something.
哦对，那些已经被屏蔽了。
Oh yeah, those already blocked.
如果你尝试那么做，会收到警告。
You get like a warning if you try to do that.
是的，所以我们从多个角度尝试监控设备上的活动和我们运行的服务，确保没有可疑访问。
Yeah, so from multiple angles, we try to like monitor what's happening on devices, what's what's happening on the services that we run to make sure that there's no suspicious access.
好的。
うん。
那个。
その。
是的，最不希望发生的就是这种情况。
ええ、一番こういうのが起きたら一番嫌だな。
就是说。
っていう。
与其说是具体方案，不如说还很模糊。
シナリオっていうか、すごい ぼんやりしてますけど。
感觉挺麻烦的。
厄介だなみたいな。
啊，需要。
ああ、要け。
确实是这样。
そうですね。
我想。
I think。
嗯，从我们的立场来看。
まあ、我々の立場からすると。
比如说，公司内部的信息，嗯，公司内部的业务计划啊，嗯，未来，嗯，规划了怎样的路线图，嗯，如果这些内部信息泄露了，嗯，那当然也是很严重的事情，但是呢。
例えば、社内の情報、まあ、社内の事業計画とか、まあ、今後、まあ、どういうロードマップを描いてるか、まあ、そういう社内の情報がもし漏洩しちゃったら、まあ、それも大変、もちろん大変なことではあるんですけど、でもまあ。
嗯，说极端一点的话，那只是我们公司自己承受的损害，嗯，我们自己想办法解决就好了。最糟糕的情况是，如果我们不小心泄露了从客户那里收到的信息，或者那些本不应公开的确认信息，那将会是巨大的问题。
まあ極端な話をするともういそれはまあ魚ナ AI自社がまあ覆うダメージだけであってまあ自分たちがま何んとかすればいいんですよ was worst like if we somehow leakンフOR we received from our clientsENTS orンフ confirmation informationォ that should not be AVAのBL that's gonna be a HU.
损害我们的声誉，所以这绝对是我们要不惜一切代价避免的事情。
Damage our reputation, so that's definitely something we want to avoid at all costs.
是的。
嗯。
那么你们是如何确保安全的呢？比如你们在做大数据分析，对吧？
So how do you secure, like you know, you're doing like big data analysis, right?
如果其中一个客户是政府或与国防相关的事务，那么这些数据就必须做到极其安全。
And if one of the clients is going to be the government or sort of defense related things, then that, you know, that data has to be like extremely secure.
所以是这样吗？
So is that?
是的，确实如此。
Yeah, definitely.
比如，这些数据存储在什么样的环境中？
Like what, what sort of environment is that data stored in?
是的，我认为对于国防和政府相关项目来说。
YEAH, I FEEL LIKE FOR DEFENSE AND GOVERNMENT RELATED PROJECTS.
哦，是的。
哦，对呀。
显然他们有非常严格的安全要求，有时我们必须确保在承接政府项目之前就遵守这些指导方针。
obviously they have very strict security requirements, and we have to make sure that we follow those guidelines even before we can take on a government project sometimes.
所以是的，根据项目我们会设定不同的标准，根据处理的信息类型，我们必须确定安全要求并确保严格执行。
So yeah, depend on the project we set different, depend on the information we handle, we have to decide on the security requirements and just and definitely make sure that we follow through on that.
那么具体是什么样的呢？
So what is that like, uh?
这个完成了吗？
Is that done?
我猜这可能是和他们某个数据人员协调完成的，或者这种交接是怎么进行的？
I guess that's done in coordination with maybe one of their data people, or like how is that sort of handoff?
我的意思是，有一些公开的指导方针，比如我们遵循的最佳实践类型，但我觉得困难的部分在于，如果你在做人工智能，如何确保在遵循这些最佳实践的同时，还能交付一个具有自主能力的系统。
I MEAN, THERE'S SOME LIKE PUBLIC GUIDELINES THAT LIKE BEST KIND OF BEST PRACTICES THAT WE FOLLOW, UM, BUT I GUESS THE HARD PART IS HOW DO YOU MAKE SURE THAT IF YOU'RE DOING AI, UH, YOU CAN STILL LIKE DELIVER AN AGENTIC SYSTEM WHILE FOLLOWING, UM, THOSE BEST PRACTICES.
嗯。
うん。
所以这有点像我们有时试图达到的平衡。
So that's kind of like the balance we try to strike sometimes.
比如我觉得让AI与大型数据库交互会引入更多数据泄露的途径。
like I guess having AI interact with large databases introduces more ways for that data to.
泄露。
LEAK.
是的，存在潜在风险。
Yeah, potential.
所以我们考虑在某些情况下采取一些方式。
So we think of ways like maybe in some cases.
嗯，还有就是我们提供的任何系统，比如说不能连接互联网。
um, also whatever system we provide, say cannot connect to the internet for example.
所以，真的。
だから、本当に。
我们会根据具体案件进行相应处理。
案件によって対応させていただいております。
那个，刚才在讨论产品时，说到类似教人如何使用炸弹这样的话，您提到有些内容是不该说的，这些安全审查也是由同一个团队负责的吗？
あの、さっきそのプロダクトの話でこう爆弾の使い方を教えてくれみたいなことを言った時に言ってしまってはいけないみたいなことをおっしゃってたと思うんですけど、それもそのセキュリティ同じチームが見てるっていうことですか？
是的。
そうですね。
是的，范围确实非常广泛，覆盖面真的很广呢。
はい、結構幅広く、確かにすごい幅広いですね。
这样的话，是的，是的。
そうなると、そうです、そうです。
要做的事情越来越多，
もうどんどんやることがはい、増えて。
堆积如山。
山積み.
最近节目里也介绍了ChatGPT在美国被提起诉讼的新闻，说它可能涉及教唆自杀，您对这个新闻怎么看？
その最近こうチャットGPTがアメリカで訴訟を起こされているって話を番組でも紹介して、こう自殺教唆にあたるんではないかみたいなことを言ってしまったと、そういうニュースを見て、どういうふうにご覧になってます。
嗯，我在想的是。
うん、なんか思ったのは。
我在书上读到过这个概念，比如说AI。
私、本で読んだま 概念ではあるんですけど、例えばもうai。
但是某种程度上，开发者也有无法控制的方面吧？
でもある程度開発者がコントロールできない側面もあるんじゃないですか？
当然我们会设置各种防护措施，但我认为要确保模型百分之百遵循指令也是相当困难的。
ま、もちろんいろんなガードレールとかは引いたりするんですけど、is is i think it's also quite hard to make sure that the model complies with your instructions hundred percent of the time.
所以今后会有面向企业或个人等不同情况。
だからもう例えば、もう今後法人とか個人みたいのがあるよね。
法人是一个与自然人不同的独立实体，对吧？
法人 is a difference is a separate entity from a natural person, right?
在法律层面上。
in in the in terms of law.
所以也许人工智能也可以拥有自己的实体，法律实体。
so maybe ten ai can also have this own entity, legal entity.
这样如果发生某些事情，比如不好的事情，应该是人工智能实体负责，而不是开发者或系统运营者。
So that if something, say if something bad were to happen, uh, it is the AI entity that should be responsible instead of the developers or people who run the system.
所以这或许是一种可能的处理方式。
So maybe that's one potential way of.
是的。
YEAH.
我想不是要解决它，而是要去理解它。
I GUESS NOT RESOLVING IT, BUT LIKE KIND OF SEEING IT.
你们具体在开发什么样的产品呢？
WHAT KIND OF UM PRODUCTS ARE YOU GUYS DEVELOPING EXACTLY?
我的理解是你们其实并不是在做那种面向消费者的对话型产品。
MY UNDERSTANDING IS YOU GUYS AREN'T REALLY MAKING SORT OF THE B TO C SORT OF CONVERSATIONAL.
你知道的，就是那种Transformer模型，对吗？
Type you know transformer models, is that right?
我们有很多项目在进行中。
There are a lot of things going on.
所以我不能评论太多。
so I can't comment too much.
作为鱼类的特征，比如仿生学这类东西经常能看到，从自然、进化以及安全的角度来看，那些可以借鉴的地方
なんかその魚への特徴として、こうバイオミミクルみたいなこうすごく見るんですけど、その自然とか進化とか、そのセキュリティっていう観点で、そのそういうところから参考にできるものってのは.
是存在的。
あったりします。
很有趣呢。
面白いですね。
自然与进化。
自然と進化。
抱歉，我刚才在思考自然与进化。
すいません、考えてて自然と進化。
从这个意义上说，我确实没怎么这样思考过。
あんまりそういう意味では、そういう風に考えたことないんですけど。
不过。
でも。
我觉得在Sakana，即使你不是AI研究员。
I feel like at at um sakana, even if you are not uh ai researcher.
我们确实努力去理解同事们正在进行的新研究项目。
uh we do try to understand um the new research projects that are uh being conducted by our colleagues.
因为公司内部有一个叫'技术讲座'的定期活动，研究员们会轮流分享他们的工作内容。
because 本当にもうみんなで、ま、社内でテックトークっていうセッションがあるんですけども、リサーチャーが、あ。
通过这种方式，我们其他岗位的同事也能参与这些活动，了解他们在做什么，以及他们正在尝试哪些新方法。
they take turns to share what they're doing kind of what new approaches they're thinking of そういう風にも、私たちはま他の職種の方々もまそういうイベントに参加して、まあ何をやってるか、まさらにどういう。
无论是基于Transformer的设计，还是更先进的进化框架——比如最近出现的EvoDiff框架，我们都会先理解他们在做什么，然后在此基础上设想可能存在的风险。
設計、トランスフォーマーなのか、まあもうちょっと進化系の、まあ最近進化エバーオフっていう、まあフレームワークもあるんですけど、そういうまずやってることを理解して、でその上で、まあどういうリスクがあるかみたいなを想像したりもしています。
是的
うん。
最近在B轮融资之后，围绕sakana ai的公众讨论，你知道，有一些……
sort of the public dialogue around sakana ai lately following the series b funding round and there's you know there's some.
我想，第二AI在AI模型本身方面所做的工作有点更小众，不如Transformer模型那样——可以说——实用，你知道吧？
I guess what second AI is working on in terms of the AI models themselves are a bit more niche, not as not as I guess you could say pragmatic as sort of what has been proven out through transformer models, you know?
所以，你知道，有很多……
So there's, you know, there's a lot of.
关于那个讨论
DISCUSSION AROUND UM.
公司和融资及其发展方向，看起来SakanaAI似乎是在关注，你知道，那个方向
THE COMPANY AND THE FUNDING AND ITS DIRECTION, AND IT SEEMS LIKE SAKANAIA IS SORT OF LOOKING, YOU KNOW, THERE.
他们更多处于研究阶段而非产品阶段，对吧？
THEY'RE MORE IN THE RESEARCH PHASE THAN THE PRODUCT PHASE, RIGHT?
所以你知道有些人会有疑问，关于
AND SO YOU KNOW SOME PEOPLE HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT, UM.
它将如何产生收益，作为在那里工作的人，你是只专注于自己的职责，并不太关注这些公开讨论吗？
How it's going to generate revenue, and you know, as someone who works there, do you sort of just focus on what your responsibilities are, and you don't really pay attention to this public discussion?
或者办公室的氛围是怎样的？
Or what is the vibe like in the office?
我想这就是我要问的。
I guess is what I'm asking.
好的。
Okay.
是的，我个人不太关注社交媒体，但在我们B轮融资公告后听到过类似评论，人们会说，嘿，不知道第二AI在做什么，他们怎么筹集到这么多资金等等。
Yeah, personally I don't really follow social media too much, but I've heard similar comments following our serious B announcement that people are saying, hey, you know, I don't know what second I was doing, how do they raise so much money, etc.
所以公司也会讨论，比如我们是否应该更积极主动。
And so the company will also kind of talk about it, like, you know, should we be more proactive and.
比如对我们提供的服务进行营销，还是应该直接忽略这些噪音之类的讨论。
Like kind of marketing what we offer or should we just you know kind of cut out the noise みたいな議論もあるんですけど。
不过实际上，如果你看看我们第二AI的官方博客，会发现我们确实在讨论与客户的合作关系。
Well, but like actually, if you look at our second AI block, our official block, you do see that you know we talk about the kind of partnerships with with our clients.
我们正在进行的研究，嗯，
RESEARCH WE ARE WORKING ON AND, UM.
嗯，我们正在开展的新举措，比如与金融和政府部门的客户合作，所以我觉得
UM, NEW INITIATIVES WE'RE WORKING ON LIKE WITH UM CLIENTS IN FINANCE AND THE GOVERNMENT SECTOR, SO I JUST FEEL LIKE.
啊。
啊。
人们如果想更多地了解我们，就需要真正花时间去阅读我们在做的事情。
People, if they want to know more about us, they need to actually make an effort to read up on what we're doing.
我的意思是，那里肯定有一些吸引人的东西，我想普通大众可能还不了解，比如在生物防御这方面，就是其中的一部分。
I mean, there must be something compelling there that I guess the general public is not aware of, and you know, on the front of like biodefense, for example, so like part of.
这笔新资金，我猜，是和……呃……相关的。
This new funding, I guess, is related to... um.
关于错误信息的研究，嗯，你知道，基本上就是。
RESEARCH AROUND MISINFORMATION, UH, YOU KNOW, ESSENTIALLY LIKE.
人工智能赋能的心灵控制以及
AI enabled mind control and and.
能够检测。
Being able to detect.
以及其中的趋势。
TRENDS IN THAT AS WELL AS.
嗯，生物武器。
UM BIOWEAPON.
呃，监测方面，我知道你不是生物武器专家。
Uh, monitoring, you know, I understand you're not like the bio weapons expert.
谁也说不准，但是，对，而且据说还有。
You never know, but um, yeah, and and and supposedly there's.
有来自美国中央情报局的一些资金支持。
There's some amount of funding from the CIA, like the United States, like Central Intelligence Agency.
所以看起来中情局不太可能...我是说，你甚至知道这事吗？
And so that it doesn't seem like the CIA would be... I mean, are you even aware of that?
这是不是...
Is that something that.
你听说过或者在讨论的事，比如'我们刚拿到中情局的资助'之类的。
That you're aware of or is being talked about, like oh we just got funding from the CIA.
我是说有人提到我们获得了来自...的资助。
I mean it was mentioned that we got funding from.
就是中情局旗下的风险投资部门对吧？
Like the CIA venture capital arm, right?
对对对，没错。
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
弗吉尼亚州阿灵顿市之类的。
Arlington, Virginia or something.
有点像是非营利组织，或者你知道，不是严格意义上的非营利。
It's sort of like a nonprofit, or like you know, not non profiting quotes.
呃...
Um.
是的。
YEAH.
那你对此有什么看法？
SO WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?
我觉得AI正在颠覆很多行业，对吧？
I feel like AI is disrupting a lot of industries, right?
嗯，显然它改变了我们的工作方式，嗯，就是日常的，而且，嗯，还在转型。
Um, obviously with the way we work, um, just day to day, but also, um, transforming.
嗯，有潜力转型不同的行业，所以它们。
Um, different have the potential of transforming different industries, so they are.
我提到我们目前正专注于金融和政府领域的工作。
I mentioned that we're working on finance and government sector for now.
我们也希望利用。
We also want to use.
我们筹集的资金来招募更多人才，帮助我们拓展到更多潜在领域，或者对现有领域进行更深入的研究。
THE MONEY WE RAISE TO RECRUIT MORE TALENT TO HELP US EXPAND INTO POTENTIALLY MORE SECTORS, OR KIND OF DO MORE IN-DEPTH RESEARCH INTO UM THE EXISTING SECTORS.
所以如果你问瓶颈，我们目前的一个瓶颈其实是人员，我们正在非常努力地。
SO IF YOU LIKE THE BOTTLENECK, ONE OF THE BOTTLENECKS WE HAVE NOW IS UH ACTUALLY PEOPLE WE WE'RE TRYING VERY HARD TO.
招聘，但我们也不想在人才质量上妥协，这是显而易见的。
recruit but uh we also don't want to compromise on uh quality of talent obviously。
是的，公司内部正在讨论用这笔资金招募更多伙伴，扩大我们的活动范围。
結構、そう、そのお金を使って、まあもうちょっと仲間を増やして、まあ活動、はい、たくさんしていこうという話に社内はなっていますね。
那也包括网络安全部门。
that's including the cyber security division as well.
我看到他们要求很高。
i saw that they're high.
是的，没错。
yeah, exactly.
对。
Yep.
我们仍在努力扩大团队。
We're still trying to expand the team.
那一定非常令人兴奋。
and it must be so exciting.
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就像有这么多戏剧性的事情发生。
Like there's so much drama going on.
你们还获得了CIA的资助。
You've got CIA funding.
你们正在做一些不同的事情。
You guys are working on some different things.
也许几年后我可以写一本关于我副业的书。
Maybe I can write a book about my secondaries in a couple years.
这个主意很棒。
That's a great idea.
团队的平均年龄比较年轻吗？
結構平均年齢は若めですか？
平均年龄，是的。
平均年齢、そうです。
听说大概在三十五岁左右。
三十半ばぐらいだと聞いてますね。
我想这在AI行业算是平均水平吧。
I guess that's sort of average for the AI industry.
应该没有，是的，大概是这样。
There's not, yeah, probably.
对。
yeah.
我们还没有，是的，我想我们和其他AI公司做过比较。
We haven't, yeah, I think we have compared with other AI.
具体的公司，不过。
Specific companies, but.
国籍方面也是相当多样化的感觉吗？
国籍とかも結構バラバラな感じですか？
国籍也确实很分散呢。
国籍もバラバラですね。
我们有两支比较大的主力团队。
We have two kind of big main teams.
一个是研究团队，专注于
One is research, so the research team focuses on like.
嗯，真正进行AI模型和框架的研究与开发，嗯，探索新的方法，比如我们刚才讨论的受自然启发的途径等等，然后在另一边，呃，我们称之为应用团队，专注于主要为日本客户交付项目，所以我认为在应用团队中我们有更多，呃，
UM, REALLY THE RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT OF AI MODELS AND FRAMEWORKS, UM, SHIN GAI OF NEW WAYS OF LIKE THE NATURE INSPIRED APPROACH WE WE TALKED ABOUT JUST NOW, ET CETERA, AND THEN ON THE OTHER SIDE, UH, WE CALL IT THE APPLIED TEAM, WE FOCUS ON DELIVERING PROJECTS TO MAINLY JAPANESE CLIENTS, SO I THINK ON THE IN THE APPLIED TEAM WE HAVE MORE, UH.
日本人，因为需要具备商务水平的日语能力才能与客户进行讨论。
Japanese people because you need to speak business level Japanese to have discussions with our clients.
我应该提一下，你是通过Siaran或Kieran推荐给我们的。
And I should mention that you were referred to us by Siaran or Kieran.
或者我不太确定。
or I'm not sure.
是的，Kieran在研究团队。
Yeah, Kieran is on the research team.
你能稍微介绍一下他吗？
Can you tell us about him a little bit?
如果你不介意的话，他是一位理论物理学家，对吗？
If you don't mind, he's a theoretical physicist, right?
而且他
And he's.
他算是从那个角度做研究
He's sort of doing research from that angle.
我想是的，实际上
I think so, actually.
我只在办公室见过他一次
I've only met him once in the office.
好的，因为我觉得他不是每天都来，对吧？
Okay, because I think he doesn't come in every day, right?
所以我们见了一次面聊了聊这个播客
So we met up once to kind of talk about this podcast.
对，算是他正在做的项目
Yeah, kind of what he's working.
但他说他是这个播客的忠实粉丝
But he says he's a great fan of this podcast.
就这些。
That's all.
评价很高啊。
That's high.
对。
Yeah.
那么，办公室具体在哪里呢？
So, where, where is the office?
我们的办公室在虎之门。
Our office is in Toranomon.
啊，原来如此。
Ah, so, nanda.
哦，好的。
Oh, okay.
我以前住得还挺近的。
I used to live kind of close.
哦不，不是的。
Oh, no, it's not.
什么，你的什么？
What, what's your?
哦。
Oh.
请继续。
go ahead.
不，你说你在日本已经待了十年了。
No, you say you've been in Japan for ten years now.
在那之前您是在哪里呢？
その前はどちらにいらっしゃったんですか？
在那之前。
その前は。
在法国拿了硕士学位，然后去了新加坡。
フランスで修士を取ったり、うんでシンガポールに行ったりしました。
好的。
うん。
那么，日本的生活怎么样？
じゃあ、いろんどうですか、日本。
你知道吗？
Do you know?
日本，但日语还是很难呢。
日本、でもまだ日本語難しいですね。
嗯？
え.
我还在学习新词汇。
I still pick up new words.
我。
I.
你的。
Your.
你的milge是日语还是不是日语？
your your milge is Japanese or it's not Japanese or.
啊，我的milge是日语，因为我丈夫是日本人。
Ah, my milge is Japanese because my husband is Japanese.
好的。
O K.
啊，所以你是这样想的。
Ah, so you thing.
但他确实还在教我一些新单词。
But he's yeah he still teaches me new new words here.
那你为什么这么国际化呢？
So why are you so international?
或者说，你是怎么...怎么变成这样的？
Or like, how do you... how did this happen?
哦，是这样的，我在新加坡上过学，新加坡人都会说好几种语言，对吧？
Oh, so I was I went to school in Singapore, and then so in Singapore people would speak multiple languages, right?
因为这是个多种族社会，所以大家都会说英语，然后在此基础上你还要学习自己的母语。
Because multiracial society, so everyone would speak English, and then on top of that you learn your own like.
他们称之为母语，如果你是华裔，就学中文；如果是印度裔，就学泰米尔语或其他印度语言。
Like they call it mother tongue, so if you're Chinese ethnicity, you learn Mandarin; if you're Indian, you learn Tamil or another Indian language.
所以我当时想多学一门语言，因为觉得与众不同会很酷，对吧？
So I was hoping to learn an additional language because I thought it would be cool to be different, right?
于是我开始学日语，而且...是的，我觉得也很有趣。
So I started learning Japanese, and I... yeah, I thought it's fun too.
差不多是这样。
Kind of yeah.
说一门新语言。
speak a new language that.
虽然还是亚洲语言，但和我熟悉的文化差异很大。
It's still like an Asian language, but it's pretty different from the cultures I was familiar with.
那你最初为什么决定搬来这里呢？
So why did you decide to move here initially?
抱歉如果你已经提过这件事了。
Sorry if you already mentioned this.
没关系，别担心。
but oh no, no worries.
我获得了去日本留学的奖学金。
So I got a scholarship to study in Japan.
是的，然后我就去日本读大学了，所有课程都用日语教学，所以我不得不快速掌握语言，还得跟母语者交流。
YEAH, AND THEN I I MOVED TO JAPAN FOR UNIVERSITY, AND ALL MY CLASSES WERE IN JAPANESE, SO I HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO REALLY PICK IT UP AND LIKE TALK WITH NATIVE SPEAKERS.
我们的一位嘉宾提到她很喜欢日本，学了日语然后移居日本，你知道很多人会说'实际体验和想象有差距'对吧？
are one of our guests have mentioned like she loved Japan she learned Japanese and then she moved to Japan and you know a lot of people mention なんかその思ってたのと違う人もいるし、なんかこうギャップがあったりするじゃないですか？
索先生您当时是怎样的呢？
サウさん的にはどうでした？
就是突然要用日语完成学业这件事。
それはその急に日本語で学生生活を送るっていうのを。
啊，确实存在很大差距。
ああ、ギャップはすごくありました。
一开始嘛，现在也偶尔会遇到文化冲击，但最初我对日本的印象是个科技很先进的地方，可能是因为哆啦A梦和机器人这些形象太深入人心了，但实际来这所大学上学后发现。
最初はまあ、今もたまにカルチャーショックあるんですけど、まあ最初はすごく日本はテクノロジックアバンスなところのイメージがあって、because of like i guess ドラえもんとかロボットとかのイメージが強かったんですけど、でもここの大学に通ってみて。
并不一定是最科技先进的地方。
Not necessarily the most technologically advanced.
我说啊。
I say.
那些纸质文件。
マニュアルが。
对对对，居然还在用传真机之类的。
そうそうそうそう、ファックスでまたあるんだとか。
你们有传真机吗？
Do you have a fax machine?
没有，你们有吗？
No, do you have?
我甚至都不知道怎么用那玩意儿。
I don't know how to use one, even.
我觉得现在在便利店就可以发传真了。
I think you can do it from theコンビニ now.
便利店居然还有传真机啊。
コンビニにファックスまだあるんだ。
哇，这里居然还全是纸质文件。
Wow, everything is still paper here.
我每周都得...寄好几次东西。
I have to... I mail stuff like every week.
但感觉在安全性方面，传真其实挺好的，对吧？
But it feels like security-wise, Fux is is pretty good, right?
因为
Because.
它只是纸张而已
It's just paper.
但如果你... 哦，好奇这要怎么黑进去呢？
but if you... Oh, wonder how can you hack it?
你大概可以像黑打印机那样黑传真机之类的，对吧？
You can probably hack fax machines like you can hack printers and stuff, right?
但如果它...如果它不是，因为传真机并不连接互联网。
But if it's... If it's not, because fax machines are not connected to the internet.
它只是固定电话线路，对吧？
it's just landline, right?
嗯，也许现在它们连了，但以前只是固定电话线路，对吧？
Well, maybe now they are, but like it used to be just landlines, right?
是的。
Yeah.
但如果你带回去，如果你有个袋子，比如你设法接触到传真机，就可以直接连接到系统。
but if you bring it back, if you had a sack, like if you somehow gain access to the fax machine, you can just connect to the system.
而且确实。
And yeah.
我觉得现在短信对于双重认证来说被认为是不安全的。
I think like SMS now is considered insecure for like two-factor authentication.
啊，是这样吗？
あ、そうなの？
对对对。
そうそうそう。
明明超级方便的。
めっちゃ便利なのに。
是的。
Yeah.
但是短信现在已经不安全了。
but SMS is not secure anymore.
因为有人可以轻易盗用你的... 是的，冒充身份。
because somebody can just steal your... Yeah, pretend to be.
哦，有个叫Paskey的东西。
Oh, something called Paskey.
你听说过吗？
Have you heard of that?
而且就在那个网站上。
Also in that website.
Paskey有很多种不同的形式。
The Paskey has like very, there's so many forms of it.
它并不像是一个标准化的东西。
It's not like a, it's not very standardized.
有一段时间大家都觉得采用实体形式是个好主意。
And now for a while everyone thought it was a great idea to have like the physical.
比如Ubiky。
like the Ubiky.
Ubiky，然后如果你弄丢了它。
Ubiky, and then it's like, well, if you lose it.
你知道那很糟糕对吧。
you know it's bad right.
我认为Paski实际上正在进化。
I think Paski is actually evolving.
是有标准的，有一个协议规范。
There is a standard, there's a protocol for it.
所以有两种类型，对吧？
So there are two types, right?
比如有设备绑定的那种，就是类似UB key硬件安全令牌。
Like there's the device bound, so the kind of UB key hardware security token.
是的，就像你说的，如果弄丢了，就相当于失去了所有账户的访问权限，这确实不太好。
And yeah, like you say, if you lose it, you kind of lose access to all your accounts, which is not great.
所以要么在备份里，你需要多个UB密钥，要么你会想要一种叫做
So either in the backup, so you need multiple UB keys, or you would want something called.
可同步通行密钥的东西，它可以跨设备同步，比如你的苹果设备，嗯，或者嗯，到你的手机和平板电脑上。
SYNCABLE PASS KEYS, WHICH CAN SYNC ACROSS SAY YOUR APPLE DEVICES, UM, OR UM, TO YOUR PHONES AND AND IPADS.
所以实际上我觉得这个正在获得关注，而且我支持可同步通行密钥的提议。
SO THAT'S ACTUALLY I FEEL LIKE GAINING TRACTION AND I'M A PROPOSAL OF SYNCABLE PASS KEYS.
那个就像是指纹的那种，对吧？
That's like the fingerprint one, right?
是不是说你创建一个通行密钥后，最终还得这样做？
Is that the like you create a pass key and then you end up having to do it?
你必须连续按四次指纹才能登录，这太疯狂了。
You have to put your finger on it like four times in a row to log in, which is insane.
但你觉得这算是目前的最佳实践吧，比UB密钥更好？
But you think that's like sort of the best practice right now, more than like the UB key.
为什么需要操作四次呢？
Why do you have to do it four times?
嗯，你必须触摸设备上的密码应用来输入凭证，然后这会触发双因素认证通行密钥，其实也是同样的操作——在同一设备的同一位置使用指纹，结果就变成了我不知道重复三次还是几次。
Well, you have to touch it to access the passwords app on your device to input your credentials, and then that will then trigger the two-factor authentication passkey, which is also the same thing, your fingerprint in the same place on the same device, and it ends up being I don't know like three times or something.
是的，我认为一个常见的误解是认为通行密钥需要指纹或其他类型的生物识别认证。
YEAH, I THINK IT'S A COMMON MISCONCEPTION THAT PASSKEYS REQUIRE LIKE A FINGERPRINT OR OTHER SORTS OF BIOMETRIC AUTHENTICATION.
理论上，你可以只保存通行密钥，无需任何生物识别或额外认证。
IN THEORY, YOU CAN JUST HAVE PASSKEY SAVED WITHOUT ANY BIOMETRIC OR ADDITIONAL AUTHENTICATION.
所以这也取决于网站如何设置通行密钥的注册流程。
SO IT DEPENDS ON HOW THE WEBSITE SETS UP PASSKEY REGISTRATION AS WELL.
苹果的标准是带指纹的生物识别技术，对吧？
The Apple standard is the biometric with the fingerprint, right?
或者面容ID。
Or face ID.
对吧？
right?
这取决于你。
It's up to you.
比如，在我的Mac笔记本上，我就没设置触控ID，因为我不太信任生物识别。
Like, for example, on my laptop, on my Mac, I don't have Touch ID set up because I don't necessarily believe in biometric.
真的吗？
Really?
我认为这更多是图个方便。
I think it's like convenience.
但你是怕有人会用胶带...
But are you afraid someone will like get some cellophane tape and like lift your fingerprint and then like.
把它放上去。
Put it on there.
是的。
yeah.
我在网飞的剧集里看到过，对吧？
I've seen it in Netflix shows, right?
我觉得这是真的。
I think it's real.
我认为确实有办法获取指纹，然后让它在某些生物识别扫描仪上生效。
I think there is a way to pick up a fingerprint and then and get it to work on some biometric scanners.
但攻击者要这么做的话，他们必须物理上接近你。
But then for an attacker to do it, they have to come close to you physically.
没错，我的意思是他们得知道你的长相，然后好吧，他们得跟踪你到星巴克之类的地方才能下手。
Right, so I mean they have to know what you look like, and then okay, they follow you to the Starbucks or something and do that.
是的，然后他们就能窃取你的加密钱包之类的东西。
Yeah, and then they, you know, get your crypto wallet or something.
所以这是值得的。
so it's worth it.
我是说，如果你是什么大公司的CEO或者世界领袖之类的，确实得担心有人收集你的头发或者获取你虹膜的高清图像这种事。
I mean, if you're like a CEO of a major company or some like world leader or something, I think you do actually have to worry about, you know, people collecting your hair or getting a high resolution image of your iris or something.
我不知道。
I don't know.
你可能只是睡着了，对吧？
you could just be asleep, right?
你可能只是睡着了，然后别人就能趁机下手。
you could just be asleep and someone could just take you know.
你的手指，你的手指，对。
Your finger, your finger, yeah.
对，或者干脆切掉你的手指。
yeah, or cut your fingers off.
我是说这对你来说就不太理想了。
I mean that's less ideal for you.
我有个美国朋友，他拒绝设置面容ID，因为觉得……哦。
I have a friend from the US and he refuses to set up a face ID because it's like... Oh.
显然，美国警方可以在没有你同意的情况下直接用面容ID解锁你的手机。
Apparently, police in the US can just like unlock your phone with Face ID without your contact.
但你的眼睛必须睁着才能用吧？
But you have to be your eyes have to be open for that to work, right?
所以是的，但他们可以……哦对，对，你需要……
So yeah, but they can just like... Oh yeah, yeah, you need like.
极端情况就是一直保持伸出手指，整个被拘留期间都这样伸着。
extreme like hang out and you just keep hang out the whole time you're in custody.
我不会停止伸出手指的。
I'm not stopping hang out.
或者你也应该为Hangout设置面容ID。
Or you should set up the face ID with Hangout to.
开始吧。
begin.
那样更安全。
That's safer.
从法律角度来说，这是怎么运作的？
Legally speaking, how does that work?
所以如果是数字密码之类的，他们需要你的同意吗？
So if it's a passcode with numbers or whatever, they do they need your consent?
或者我猜他们就是不能。
Or I guess they just can't.
但如果是面部识别，他们即使未经你同意也能直接解锁。
But with if it's a face, they can just do that even if you don't consent to it.
怎么做到的？
How?
这要怎么操作？
How does that work?
我不是百分百确定，但我觉得如果你设置了密码，他们至少得先问你要密码，或者至少尝试上百次直到手机被锁定。
I'm not hundred percent sure, but I think if you have a passcode, they have to at least ask you for your passcode or at least try it like hundred times until your phone gets locked.
但如果只是面部识别，他们就可以未经你同意直接扫描。
But if it's just face ID, then they can just without your consent scan it.
是的，这就是它的运作方式。
Yeah, and how that works.
这有点疯狂，因为我觉得你可以...
It's kind of crazy that that's a thing because I guess you know you could like.
我不知道，你不需要说什么，对吧？
I don't know, you don't have to say anything right?
从法律上讲，你可以直接说，你知道的。
Like legally, you can just say, you know.
我要找我的律师之类的，对吧？
I want my lawyer or something, right?
不过确实，如果你的脸能解锁，他们就可以直接把设备对着你的脸。
But yeah, if your face unlocks it, then they can just point your device at your face.
感觉好像应该有... 我也不确定。
It seems like there should be... I don't know.
一项禁止他人将手机对准你脸部的法律
A law that other people can't point your phone at your face.
我的意思是，这就像他们抓住你的手强行按在指纹识别器上一样，对吧？
I mean, it's like it's sort of the same thing as if they took your hand and forced your finger onto the fingerprint scanner, right?
我感觉这始终是个持续争论的话题
I feel like it's always an ongoing debate about.
关于执法部门该在多大程度上获取你的数据
How much law enforcement should have access to your data?
比如，我不确定你们是否了解最近的
Like, I'm not sure if you guys are familiar with this recent.
苹果公司涉及的诉讼案
lawsuits between uh the apple.
英国可能要求苹果为iPhone数据开后门之类的，而苹果显然想拒绝这个要求
Potentially having this like backdoor to your iPhone data in the UK or something, and Apple obviously wants to refuse that.
不过确实
but yeah.
如果他们被命令这么做，他们就得照做。
if they're ordered to do this, then they do.
可能不得不那样做。
may have to do that.
所以是的，我认为那里有一些立法，嗯，我觉得还在进行中。
so yeah, I think I mean there, there's some legislation, um, that I think is still being.
在欧洲正在制定的法规会禁止私人对话的加密。
Worked out in Europe that would ban encryption of like private conversations.
对。
Right.
嗯。
um。
显然，有些服务或技术就是以此为业的，对吧？
And obviously, there's some services or technologies where like that's their whole business, right?
比如Telegram。
Like Telegram.
是的，所以这就像是，你知道，这应该是一项个人权利吗？
Yeah, so it's like, you know, should that be a personal right?
你知道，你是否拥有这样的权利？
You know, do you have the right to have?
嗯，私人对话的权利，还是政府应该能够查看你所有的对话内容？
UM, PRIVATE CONVERSATIONS OR SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT JUST BE ABLE TO SEE YOU KNOW ALL YOUR CONVERSATIONS.
你在私人生活中有多谨慎？
How careful are you in your private life?
我确实会尽量小心谨慎。
I I I do try to be careful.
如果我在线购物，我会尽量使用借记卡。
If I do online shopping, I try to use a debit card.
在可能的情况下，这样即使信息泄露，我也能及时发现并阻止。
WHERE WHERE POSSIBLE, SO THAT EVEN IF THAT GETS LEAKED, I CAN STOP IT AND DETECT IT.
还有其他什么要注意的吗？
あとなんかあるかな。
我喜欢那种购物方式，就像Weberlu之类的临时购物卡，你知道吧。
I love the shopping like weberluとかのそのショッピングカードみたいなのあるじゃないですか、一時的なやつ。
我很喜欢那个。
I love that。
确实确实。
確かに確かに。
是的，我也有那种类似的白卡。
Yeah, I also have like a white card.
所以，如果我不旅行，我就把它冻结起来。
So, if I am not traveling, I just freeze it.
是的。
Yeah.
你用什么即时通讯应用？
Do you what messaging apps are you using?
我在日本，所以用LINE。
iuselineま日本にいるからlineを使ってます。
大家用的都是Line呢。
みんなlineですもんね。
在日本嘛。
日本は。
确实是这样呢。
そうですね。
虽然也有WhatsApp之类的，不过嘛。
ワッツアップとかもあるんですけど、まあ。
那对于公司内部沟通，你们有什么标准工具吗？
what about for like internal company communications you have some like standard there for。
我不知道是不是有什么特别的软件。
I don't know some special wave.
在。
在。
比如安全通讯之类的。
have like secure communications.
其实没有，我们用Google Chat。
Not really, we use Google Chat.
我猜那个相对安全，对吧？
I guess that's relatively secure, right?
是的，所有内容都在我们的Google Workspace内。
YEAH, SO EVERYTHING IS WITHIN OUR GOOGLE WORKSPACE.
嗯。
うん。
是的。
嗯。
那么你们是否有规定禁止在某些平台上交流呢？
So do you have like rules against communicating on like?
看具体是什么对话内容来决定用Line
Line depending what the conversation.
会是关于什么方面的
Would be about.
是的，显然对于工作相关的事务，任何类型的工作沟通，我们都要求员工使用他们的公司邮箱，谷歌公司邮箱，对吧？
yeah, obviously for work related, any sort of work related communication, we ask employees to use their emails, Google company emails, right?
或者公司批准的聊天渠道。
Or company approved chat channels.
嗯。
嗯。
而且是的，这类沟通应该在公司控制的设备上进行，这样你知道如果他们丢失了设备，我们可以远程擦除数据，而不是导致数据泄露。
AND YEAH, LIKE THIS KIND OF COMMUNICATION SHOULD HAPPEN ON COMPANY CONTROL DEVICES, SO THAT YOU KNOW IF THEY EVER LOSE IT, WE CAN JUST WIPE IT REMOTELY, INSTEAD OF HAVING LIKE DATA LEAKED.
你有没有看到，我觉得XAI有个工程师好像
Did you see how I think there was like one of the engineers at XAI, like?
拿走了
took the.
整个数据库之类的
THE ENTIRE BASE AND LIKE.
然后我去了Open AI，对吧？
AND I WENT TO OPEN AI, RIGHT?
我忘记它去了哪里，嗯...但你知道，他们下载了模型的所有权重和所有东西。
I FORGOT WHERE IT WENT, UM... BUT YOU KNOW, THEY THEY LIKE DOWNLOADED ALL THE ALL THE WEIGHTS AND EVERYTHING FOR THE MODEL AND.
然后把它交给了不该给的人，嗯。
AND GAVE IT TO SOMEONE THEY WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO, UM.
这怎么可能呢？
Like how can you?
真的能防止这种事情发生吗？
There's, can you really prevent something like that?
看起来这确实非常困难，因为这些研究人员显然需要访问模型。
It just seems like that, that's some, that's very hard to, because obviously these researchers need to have access to the model.
所以就像...
So like.
我想这大概就是，我是说，部分原因在于引进人员时的审查流程。
is that, I guess that's just, I mean, part of it is a vetting process when you bring people in.
啊。
啊。
但是。
BUT.
我不知道该如何解决这类问题？
I don't know how, how is that kind of a thing addressed?
我是说，我想应该有办法检查日志之类的。
I mean, I guess there's, you know, there's a way to check logs and sort of.
你知道，事后可以找到痕迹，但要从一开始就预防这种事情发生...有办法预防吗？
YOU KNOW, FIND TRACES OF IT AFTER THE FACT, BUT TO PREVENT SOMETHING LIKE THAT FROM HAPPENING IN THE FIRST PLACE IS... IS THERE A WAY TO PREVENT THAT?
是的，我认为这。
YEAH, I THINK IT'S.
相当难以防范。
PRETTY HARD TO PREVENT.
显然我们有监控和警报机制，一旦有可疑情况发生，我们会收到警报并调查发生了什么。
I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY WE DO HAVE MONITORING AND ALERTS IN PLACE, SO IF SOMETHING SUSPICIOUS IS GOING ON, WE RECEIVE ALERTS AND WE INVESTIGATE INTO WHAT'S HAPPENING.
嗯。
うん。
不过确实。
But yeah.
网络安全有技术层面的部分，但也有许多非技术性的、纯粹是人为的因素。
there's sort of this technical part of cybersecurity, but there's, you know, there's a lot of like less technical, just human.
这其中有人为因素，对吧？
There's this human aspect to it, right?
这有点……这个问题可能有点傻，但如果你想，比如我以前在办公室工作，当你换工作的时候，你可能会想带走一些东西。
That's just sort of... This is a silly question, but if you want to like in my like I used to work in the office and when you change jobs, you know, you might want to take some stuff.
所以你可以在下一个项目中使用它。
So you can use it in the next.
嗯，虽然从技术上讲你不该在另一家公司使用，但这不像我们这里讨论的内容那么机密。
UM, COMPANY WHICH YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO TECHNICALLY, BUT IT'S NOT AS CONFIDENTIAL AS WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE.
而且对于那种情况，我可以……我直接复制粘贴就行了吧？
AND BUT LIKE FOR THAT KIND OF STUFF, I CAN... I WOULD JUST COPY AND PASTE RIGHT?
或者我会直接把它拖到U盘或类似的东西里。
OR I WOULD JUST DRAG IT INTO USB OR SOMETHING.
但这是这个人所做的吗？
But is the is it what this guy did?
比如他只是。
Like he just.
复制粘贴了什么，还是怎么偷的？
Copied and pasted something, or how did he steal?
他点击了下载。
He clicked the download.
按钮。
button.
所以像那种情况……因为如果有下载按钮，你们可以直接禁用它，对吧？
So like that's something that... because if there's a download button, then you can just disable that, right?
这样人们就无法窃取它了。
So that people cannot steal it.
但他是怎么……从实际操作上来说，他是怎么做到的？
But like how did he... like logistically speaking, how did he do that?
是的，我不确定他用了什么，比如USB其实挺...
YEAH, I'M NOT SURE WHAT HE USED LIKE FOR USB IS IS PRETTY.
直接在工作笔记本上禁用它是相当直接的，所以你肯定可以这么做。
Straight forward to like ban it on the work laptop, so that's definitely something you can do.
但我觉得这也是一个平衡，你知道，既要考虑安全性的好处，也要考虑可能给某人生活带来的不便，因为假设在极端情况下。
But I feel like it's also a balance between you know what is good for security versus also potentially making somebody's life miserable because if say in an extreme case.
安全人员监控你在网上发出的每一个请求，并在其发生前进行批准。
AND SECURITY PERSON MONITORS EVERY REQUEST ON THE WEB YOU MAKE, AND APPROVE IT BEFORE THAT CAN HAPPEN.
你在工作上不会有效率的。
YOU'RE NOT GONNA BE PRODUCTIVE AT WORK.
是吗？
YEAH?
所以我们肯定要在合理性和...之间找到平衡。
SO WE DEFINITELY WANNA STRIKE A BALANCE BETWEEN WHAT'S LIKE YOU KNOW WHAT'S REASONABLE AND AND.
人工智能能做到吗？
WHAT'S LIKE CAN AI DO THAT.
嘿。
Hey.
人工智能。
AI.
可以可以。
CAN CAN.
能给你一些想法，但你知道人工智能也要消耗令牌的，对吧？
give you some ideas, but you know AI also consumes tokens, right?
所以如果你只是用大量的锁来淹没它，
So if you just flood it with like tons of locks, which.
那可能是数百万或数万亿个令牌。
Will be like millions or trillions of tokens.
它可能没有足够的上下文窗口或内存来处理所有这些信息洪流。
It does may not necessarily have the context window or memory to just handle all this flood of information.
所以你肯定需要决定要传递给AI哪些信息。
So you definitely have to decide like what is the information you want to pass to the AI.
要想想你希望AI做什么。
Kind of think of all what you want the AI to do.
是的，这种监控。
Yeah, this monitoring.
我记得在办公室工作时，大家都知道IT人员在监控我们的邮件。
I remember when I was working in the office, you know, people understood that the IT guys are monitoring our emails.
所以我们总是觉得，如果我们谈论一些随机的、无关的话题，或者办公室八卦之类的，这些人可能正在看着。
And so we were always like, if we talk, if we were talking about something random or, you know, unrelated or office rumors or whatever, like these guys might be watching.
然后，有这么一位IT人员，他对此感到非常厌烦。
And this, there was this IT guy who was so sick of it.
他说，我绝对不可能读完你们所有的邮件。
He was like, there's no way that I'm reading all of your emails.
你们知道邮件数量有多庞大吗？
Like, do you have any idea how many emails there are?
但是现在，现在不一样了吧。
でも今、今違うじゃん。
A.
A.
I.
I.
因为有A.I.在，马上就能找到啦。
があるから、もうすぐに見つかるじゃん。
喂，做个总结啦，A.
ね、サマリーにしてさ、A.
I.
I.
在。
が。
这个人做了这些事情。
この人はこんなことをしていました。
而且你知道，只要把查找不当通信作为提示词，它就能比人工快得多地读取内容。
AND YOU KNOW, JUST FIND INAPPROPRIATE COMMUNICATION CAN BE THE PROMPT, AND IT CAN JUST READ IT MUCH FASTER THAN LIKE.
人类可以筛选所有内容，就像我觉得现在的大数据情况，我们看到过一些政府官员之类的案例，他们认为唯一需要做的就是拼错人名，这样就不会出现在控制系统中。
A human could like sift through everything, like I feel like the big data situation now, like we've seen these cases with like government officials and stuff where they think that the only thing they need to do is spell people's names incorrectly so they don't show up in like a control.
F，对吧？
F, right?
但现在我们有了这些能够处理海量文本的大型模型。
But now we have these large models that can process enormous amounts of text.
而且模型知道那个名字应该指的是谁，即使拼写错误。
AND THE MODEL KNOWS WHAT THAT NAME WHO THAT NAME IS SUPPOSED TO BE, EVEN IF IT'S SPELLED WRONG.
所以人们过去为了试图掩盖他们的通讯所做的所有那些缓解措施，现在完全适得其反了。
SO ALL THESE MITIGATIONS THAT PEOPLE DID IN THE PAST TO TRY AND CONCEAL UH THEIR COMMUNICATIONS, IT'S LIKE TOTALLY BACKFIRED.
在当今时代，我们经常在新闻中看到这种情况，对吧？
In the current era, we see that in the news like all the time now, right?
是的，我觉得如果你
YEAH, I FEEL LIKE IF YOU'RE.
发送某些东西，你是在用互联网发送消息，而且你知道这些消息是无法删除的，对吗？
Sending something, you're using the internet to send messages and you know that those messages cannot be erased, right?
比如在公司之类的场合。
Like on company's like or whatever.
那么你必须假设总有一种方法能让AI或类似技术做到。
Then you have to assume that there's always a way to for AI or like this.
就像在未来，对吧？
like in the future, right?
是的。
Yeah.
你必须意识到未来的脆弱性，所以当他们在当时那样做的时候，没有人能够真正处理那些数据，嗯，但是一旦信息上了互联网，你知道，就像人们常说的。
YOU HAVE TO BE AWARE OF THE VULNERABILITY IN THE FUTURE, SO LIKE WHEN THEY DID IT IN THE IN THE MOMENT, THERE WAS NO WAY FOR SOMEONE TO REALLY PROCESS THAT DATA, UM, BUT THEN LIKE ONCE SOMETHING'S ON THE INTERNET, YOU KNOW, YOU SAY LIKE.
如果信息上了互联网，它基本上就永远存在了，对吧？
If something's on the internet, it's sort of there forever, right?
所以随着时间的推移，大数据正在实现这种追溯处理的能力。
So like there's sort of this retroactive processing of big data that's being enabled like over time.
所以现在的一切，如果你有敏感信息，都需要为未来大数据处理能力做好防护准备。
So like everything, if you have sensitive information now, it needs to be future proof for like future big data processing capabilities.
对，或者你干脆确保它不上网。
YEAH, OR YOU JUST MAKE SURE IT'S NOT ON THE INTERNET.
是吗？
YEAH?
这就像你得当个阿米什人什么的。
WHICH IS LIKE YOU HAVE TO BE AMISH OR SOMETHING.
真的吗？
YEAH?
因为我读到过类似的情况。
CAUSE I READ THAT LIKE THERE WERE.
虽不完全是漏洞0day漏洞，但有些系统功能确实允许、甚至会存档你与AI代理的对话记录，这让我非常害怕——因为一旦搜索引擎能索引这些对话，它们就会变得可搜索且公开在互联网上。
Not exactly a bug, but there were like system features which allow, which even archive your conversations of AI agents, which is just very scary to me because if a search engine can index your conversations, it becomes searchable and just available on the internet.
即便你删除了记录。
Even if you even if you delete it.
有可能，如果它被存档在某个地方的话。0
Potentially, if it's like archive somewhere.
有点吧，我也不确定。
sort of, I don't know.
现金之类的。
cash or some something.
这很可怕，对吧？
That's so creepy, right?
就像我每次和ChatGPT聊天时都会想到这个...因为我...我并不是在问它'给我出主意怎么杀人'之类的。
Like I always think about it when I'm talking to ChatGPT or something like... Because I... Like I don't... It... I'm not asking it to be like 'Oh, give me some idea to kill this person' or whatever.
但未来任何事都有可能。
But anything in the future.
可能...
could...
但你明白我的意思吧？
But you know what I mean?
就像我不确定...这可能是技术问题或任何事。
Like I don't know... Like it's... I don't... It can be tech stuff or anything.
但是呢，
But like.
因为ChatGPT其实不会明确告诉你，所以我不太清楚它到底会存储对话内容多久，或者协议里可能有说明，但我没读过，所以完全不知道。
It cause cause I haven't cause ChatGPT doesn't really tell you like so I'm gonna it's not really clear as to how much of the conversation it's storing for how long or maybe it's in the agreement but I haven't read it so I have no idea.
那你知道目前这类商用大型语言模型的相关政策是怎样的吗？
So do you do you know what the policy is right now with that kind of like commercial LLMS?
我觉得这取决于你的。
I think it depends on your.
计划内容以及你是否同意将所有数据交给OpenAI之类的公司，这还取决于你的账户设置。不过我觉得在欧洲，个人信息的保护更好一些，因为GDPR的缘故，你可以请求删除数据，嗯。
PLAN AND WHAT IT AND WHETHER YOU HAVE AGREED TO LIKE GIVE ALL YOUR DATA TO OPEN AI OR WHATEVER, SO IT DEPENDS ON YOUR ACCOUNT SETTINGS AS WELL, BUT I FEEL LIKE IN EUROPE THEY HAVE BETTER PROTECTION OF PERSONAL INFORMATION, SO IF YOU'RE SO CAUSE OF THE GDPR, YOU CAN REQUEST FOR DELETION OF A DATA, UM.
这真的有效吗？
Does that work?
我觉得有效，我其实试过这个功能，还挺有趣的。
I think so, I've actually tried that for fun.
我觉得不是GDPR那种，而是像某些网站上说的那样，你可以要求网站披露它们拥有的关于你的信息。
I think not, not so GDPR, but like on websites where they say hey, you know, you can request for a disclosure of the information the website has on you.
有时候我会出于好玩提交请求，看看他们是否真的会处理。
Sometimes I send in requests just for fun to see if they actually process it.
但这些数据在某个俄罗斯网站上也有副本。
But there's like a copy of that data on like some Russian website too.
有可能。
Yeah, potentially.
是的。
Yes.
等等，所以你提出了一个请求说
Wait, so you made a request saying.
询问他们拥有关于你的哪些信息
ASKING WHAT INFORMATION, LIKE WHAT INFORMATION THEY HAVE ABOUT YOU.
是的，然后你可以要求他们删除这些信息
YEAH, AND THEN YOU CAN ASK THEM TO DELETE IT.
是的，我觉得即使在Facebook上你也可以做类似的事情，你可以下载Facebook拥有的关于你的所有数据
YEAH, I THINK SAY EVEN ON FACEBOOK YOU CAN DO SOMETHING SIMILAR, SO YOU CAN DOWNLOAD ALL THE DATA THAT FACEBOOK HAS ON YOU.
好的，我会去做的。
Oh cool, I'll do that.
因为我真的对Meta最近宣布要开始用Facebook数据训练AI这件事感到非常不满，对吧？
Cause cause I I'm so unhappy about what so Meta recently said that they're gonna start using data on Facebook to train AI, right?
我对此非常不满。
And I'm so unhappy about it.
我当时就想，有没有什么办法能阻止这件事？
And I was like, oh, is there anything I can do about this?
但你也看到了。
But there you go.
Gmail不是默认允许用户...
Didn't Gmail like opt people in to.
用你的邮件内容来训练模型吗？
Using your emails and stuff for training model.
不是训练你的帖子。
Not a train your post.
原来是这样啊，对对。
そうなのね、そうそう。
然后必须自己手动关闭才行。
で自分で外さないといけないの。
这真是太麻烦了。
こう大変だ。
是的，所以我觉得我们应该是默认同意让我们的私人通信被用来训练模型的。
YEAH, SO I THINK WE'RE LIKE OPTED INTO HAVING OUR PERSONAL COMMUNICATIONS USED TO TRAIN.
大型语言模型。
Large language models.
这些数据可能以某种方式被提取出来。
which could potentially be extracted in some way.
对对。
YEAH YEAH.
这太疯狂了。
That's crazy.
但我认为欧洲正在撤回。
But I think Europe is rolling back.
他们太疯狂了。
THEY'RE INSANE.
关于像cookie提示和所有cookie相关事宜的想法，因为它没有奏效。
IDEA REGARDING LIKE THE COOKIE PROMPTS AND ALL THE COOKIE RELATED STUFF, BECAUSE IT HASN'T WORKED.
它所做的只是给了他们法律保护和更少的责任。
ALL IT HAS DONE IS GIVEN THEM LIKE LEGAL PROTECTION AND LESS LIABILITY.
当大家都觉得无所谓，直接同意获取我的数据，对吧？
WHEN EVERYONE'S JUST LIKE FINE, JUST TAKE MY COOKIES RIGHT?
因为没人会为每个网站都仔细阅读这些条款。
BECAUSE NOBODY'S GONNA READ ALL THIS SHIT FOR EVERY WEBSITE.
我没有，我没有点击同意按钮。
I'm not, I'm not pressing fine though.
只接受必要的cookie，或者拒绝所有选项。
Only, only essential cookies or like decline everything.
拒绝所有。
decline everything.
百分之九十九的网站说必需cookie，其实它们根本不是必需的。
Nothing's like ninety-nine percent of these websites when it says like essential cookies, they're not essential.
你不需要我的cookie，直接给我看内容就行。
You don't need my cookies, just show me the content.
根本没有什么必需cookie。
There are no essential cookies.
那都是骗人的。
It's a lie.
拒绝，拒绝，拒绝。
Decline, decline, decline.
而且你得拒绝三次。
AND YOU HAVE TO DECLINE LIKE THREE TIMES.
就像有个，你知道的，像是嵌套隐藏的拒绝选项。
THERE'S LIKE A, YOU KNOW, IT'S LIKE NESTED HIDDEN DECLINE.
然后我不知道如果你直接关闭会发生什么。
AND THEN I DON'T WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU JUST CLOSE IT.
那算是拒绝吗？
Is that a decline?
不，你不能。
No, you can't.
我经常这么干。
I do it all the time.
也许在日本是这样，但这里不是。
Maybe in Japan, but not here.
我关不掉它。
I can't close it.
所以有时候就像是先全部接受，然后只选必要的，接着我还得……它是折叠的，所以我得打开然后点击拒绝。
So sometimes it's like accept all and then only essential, and then I have to... It's collapsed, so I have to open it and then press decline.
或者一些好的网站一开始就给我拒绝选项，但我确实需要按点什么才能继续。
Or some good websites give me the decline option from the get go, but I do have to press something to proceed.
嗯。
嗯。
如果无视它直接滚动会怎样？
無視してスクロールしたらどうなる？
不行。
できない。
不过那个啊，在日本也会出现，确实会出现那个。
でもそれってさ、日本でも出る、出るんだそれ。
有时候会弹出来。
出る時ある。
也就是说那个网站，不管用户在哪里，都默认设置成那样了。
それってそのサイトが、じゃあ、そのユーザーがどこにいても、とりあえずそれがアプリするようにしてるからってこと。
这些规定就像某个国家突然实施，然后开发者就必须跟进，但他们没有做成区域性的。
these regulations like one random country does it and then the developers have to implement it and then they don't make it sort of like a regional.
事情。
thing.
所以我必须得同意那些年龄限制。
and so like i have to approve like age.
比如英国的年龄限制，我必须得
Like UK age restrictions, I have to like.
遵守。
Comply with.
我现在是在英国吗？
Am I in the UK?
比如是为了色情内容吗？
Like what is it for porn?
不，你怎么敢这么说？
No, how dare you?
不，因为你知道在我们国家已经不能看色情内容了。
No, because you know we can't watch porn anymore in this country.
我以为只要成年了就可以看呢。
I thought you can if you're of age.
你必须出示信用卡或身份证件，交给色情网站公司。
you have to show your credit card or id card, you have to give it to the porn company.
你为什么要这么做？
why would you want to do that?
我试过，尝试了很多方法，所以了解到如果访问日本色情网站是可以这样操作的。
i've tried, i've tried a lot of things, so i've learned that if you go to a japanese porn site, you could do that.
但如果是英文网站的话。
But if it's like an English speaking.
哦，他们不遵守规定。
oh they don't comply.
哦对，他们不遵守是因为他们凭什么要遵守呢？
Oh yeah, they don't comply cause like why would they right?
他们根本不在乎。
They don't care.
嗯，但如果是大型网站，比如那些主流的英语色情网站，你是无法访问的。
Um, but if it's a big websites like English speaking porn sites major ones, you cannot.
除非你给他们。
Watch it unless you give them the.
虽然不知道cookie怎么处理，但在那之前请先进行年龄验证。
クッキーはどうしてるかわかんないけど、でもその前にだからもうエイジ フェアフィケーションしてください。
因为会显示这个。
っていうのが出るから。
真是的。
もう。
cookie的话还是cookie那边。
クッキーはクッキーの方が.
可能是在cookie之后吧。
先 maybe after the cookie かな。
感觉有各种各样的墙呢。
なんかいろんなウォールがあるよね。
虽然不知道具体有多少人提供这个服务，但这也太夸张了。
それはさすがに提供している人、どれぐらいいるのかわからないけど。
把自己的驾照之类的上传到色情网站。
ポルノサイトに自分の免許とかを。
抱歉，把你拖进这个色情网站的话题里了。
Sorry, we're dragging you into this porn site conversation.
那么有什么有趣的安全状况呢？
So what's an interesting security situation?
没错。
Right.
比如年龄差异。
like age variation.
我想是的。
I guess, yeah.
是的，这也让我想起澳大利亚试图推行的社交媒体禁令，他们不希望十六岁以下的人使用YouTube、Instagram或TikTok。
Yeah, this also reminds me of the social media ban that Australia is trying to enforce, where they don't want anyone under sixteen to use YouTube or Instagram or TikTok.
而且我认为芬兰，芬兰或某个国家也加入了。
And I think Finland, Finland or some somebody joined as well.
哦，是的。
Oh yeah.
是的，禁止儿童使用社交媒体。
yeah, banning social media for children.
我觉得这挺有意思的。
I think it's interesting.
我认为这是有害的。
I think because it's bad.
没有一篇学术论文表明社交媒体对儿童或青少年的心理健康有益。
There's no one academic paper that says social media is good for children or teenagers' mental health wise.
我觉得如果他们尝试的话，或许能做出一个好的儿童社交媒体，但目前并没有专门为儿童设计的独立社交媒体。
I think they could make a good one if they tried, but there's no like separate social media for children.
都是一样的。
It's just the same.
因为如果你专门为儿童打造一个平台，那么捕食者就会假装成儿童加入进来。
Because if you make the one for children, then predators will join pretending to be children.
所以这就像是让捕食者更容易找到孩子。
So it's like easier for the predators to find children.
所以我不知道AI模型是否有年龄限制。
So I don't know if there are age restrictions on AI models.
有吗？
Are there?
看起来好像有。
It seems like there.
应该是这样。
should be.
我认为可以在条款和条件中规定，因为至少在美国，如果你是...
I think there could be like in the terms and conditions because I think at least in the US if you're.
我不确定，我忘了是未成年还是低于某个特定年龄。
I don't know, I forgot underage or under certain number of certain age.
你不能点赞！
YOU CANNOT LIKE SOMETHING.
对，主要是为了保护未成年人的数据隐私。
YEAH, SOMETHING TO DO WITH TRYING TO PROTECT UM UNDERAGE KIND OF DATA PRIVACY.
所以我认为在某些条款中，你会确认自己已超过特定年龄，因此这些规定就不适用了。
SO I THINK IN SOME TERMS AND CONDITIONS YOU KIND OF ACKNOWLEDGE THAT HEY YOU ALREADY ABOVE CERTAIN AGE AND SO THESE DON'T APPLY THINGS LIKE THAT.
我能想到的唯一针对儿童的算法或内容推送就是YouTube儿童版。
THE ONLY LIKE CHILD SPECIFIC ALGORITHM OR FEED I CAN THINK OF IS LIKE YOUTUBE KIDS.
不过我觉得那个版本的用户反馈也不太好。
But I guess that one doesn't really get the best feedback either.
是的，其实我从没用过YouTube儿童版，所以完全不知道它有多糟糕。
Yeah, I've actually never used YouTube Kids before, so I have no idea how bad.
我讨厌YouTube儿童版。
I hate YouTube Kids.
在过滤色情和暴力内容方面，我觉得它做得还不错，但是...
I guess in terms of omitting sexual or violent content, I think it's doing a good job, but then.
内容质量简直糟糕透顶。
Quality of the contents is absolute shit.
甚至都不是那些，就像是随机的儿童内容。
Not even those, it's just like random children.
比如开箱玩具，或者你知道的，就是孩子们做一些事情，基本上就是父母利用孩子在YouTube上赚钱。
Like opening toys or you know, just like children doing something like basically parents using children to make money off of them on YouTube.
我的孩子为什么要看那些呢？
And why would my child watch that?
孩子们会看的。
kids do。
所以。
so。
我的意思是他们也不懂。
i mean they don't know better。
你看，我家是禁止YouTube Kids的。
see youtube kids is banned in my household。
反过来。
逆に。
相反地。
逆に。
相反地，YouTube、真正的YouTube那边反而有更多教育性内容，比如想查点什么的时候。
逆にだったらまだユーチューブ、本当のユーチューブの方があの教育的コンテンツっていうかさ、なんか調べたい時とか。
嗯，我觉得那边还是有靠谱的信息的。
Um, まだちゃんとした情報があると思う。
嗯。
嗯。
所以，可以说没有人能解决这个问题，如何在保护孩子的同时确保内容质量。
だから、誰もこの問題を解決できてないというか、その子供をどうやって守りつつ、ちゃんとクオリティがある。
还是推荐真正优质的内容？
ちゃんといいものをレコメンドするか。
我喜欢那个那个。
I like the the.
GROCK讲故事AI，相比那些通用模型，它看起来对孩子来说安全得多。
THE GROCK STORYTELLING AI, IT'S LIKE SEEMS VERY SAFE FOR KIDS COMPARED TO JUST LIKE THE YOU KNOW GENERAL MODELS.
我觉得那些没有保护措施的通用模型，可能不太适合让孩子接触。
LIKE I THINK THAT THE GENERAL MODELS WITHOUT YOU KNOW PROTECTIONS ARE JUST PROBABLY NOT A GOOD IDEA FOR KIDS TO INTERACT WITH.
嗯，但Grok讲故事这个版本，它的设置似乎需要家长监督才能使用。
UM, BUT THE GROK STORYTELLING ONE, IT'S SORT OF SET UP SO IT SEEMS LIKE IT RECALL YOU KIND OF NEED UH PARENTAL SUPERVISION TO USE IT.
嗯，它具体是做什么的呢？
UM, WHAT DOES IT DO SPECIFICALLY?
它就是一个儿童讲故事模型，功能非常有限。
IT'S JUST A CHILDREN'S LIKE STORYTELLING MODEL AND IT REALLY DOESN'T DO IT.
还有其他什么或者任何
Anything else or anything that.
可能有害的内容
could be harmful.
所以它是创作故事的
so it creates stories.
是的，基于
yeah, based on.
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