Chat_128 - 比特币之声 [比特币无限秀]

因为他当时太有名了，被撞毁的车原价都抵不上签名价值。

It's like the original price of the car that he destroyed because he's so famous at this point.

显然这些画家都用这招付餐厅账单。

And apparently, these painters, they they use that for their restaurant bills.

他们不用现金结账，

So instead of the restaurant bills.

而是在收据上签名，让收据变得比餐费本身更值钱。

So instead of paying for a meal, they started signing the receipts and the receipt became more valuable than whatever the dinner cost.

只不过他们无法永远这样做，因为签名收据也存在通货膨胀问题。

Except that they couldn't do it forever because there was inflation in signed receipts.

突然间每个人都拥有达利和毕加索的签名收据。

All of a sudden everyone had Salvador Dali and Picasso signed receipts.

这简直是货币发行的完美隐喻，对吧？

And it's a perfect metaphor for money printing, right?

当你讲述象限故事时，还有几件事会浮现在脑海。

And also like a couple of things come to mind when you tell a story about the quadrant.

其一是撒切尔夫人那句名言：'社会主义的问题在于迟早会用光别人的钱'，这暗示着资源若使用不当终将枯竭。

One is the the famous Margaret Thatcher quote, the problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money, which is loading to the the that's that the resources go away if you don't use them properly.

另一件事是比特币正处于最佳状态，它位于这个象限的最顶端角落。

And the other thing is that Bitcoin is at the very, very best point, and it's it's at the very top corner of this quadrant.

对吧？

Right?

最顶端角落因为它把'在乎'发挥到了极致。

The very top corner because it's giving a shit on steroids.

你对你的钱100%上心。

You give a 100% shit about your money.

你选择不信任。

You you've you don't trust.

你选择验证。

You verify.

你要确保它确实属于你，并且由你亲自用于购买想要的东西。

You make sure that it's actually yours and it's being spent by you on stuff you wanted to buy.

是的。

Yes.

所以，这就是最关键的一点。

So so it's the it's the most give a shit point.

这正是货币应尽职责的巅峰体现，但健全货币本身及其运作机制中实际存在一个反馈系统，这非常精妙——因为它能放大这种重视程度，甚至超越其对个人意义的分量，因为你还能从货币中看到社会繁荣度与生产力提升的映射。

It's it's the apex of the job that money is supposed to do, but there's actually a feedback system in sound money itself and how money is supposed to work, which is brilliant because it amplifies the giving a shit even outside of the weight of what it meant to you because you also have a reflection of the prosperity increase of society, of the productive increase of society reflecting in your money.

因此，持有时间越长，其分量就越重。

Therefore, the longer the longer you hold onto it, the deeper the weight is.

你会越发意识到：如果现在不消耗非必要的资源，两年后实际上能获取更多资源，因为社会正在进步。

The more you realize that if you don't use up resources that you don't need to use up right now, in two years' time, you can actually get access to a lot more resources because society is getting better.

所以本质上你拥有两样东西。

So what you you what you actually have is you have two things.

你既掌握着资源的分量，也通过理解其价值而获得收益（因为你清楚自己为实现目标投入了什么），同时潜意识里还存在等待的动机——因为你明白需要给予时间，知道所有人的资源分量都将随时间增长。

You have both the weight of the resources and how much you earned in in knowing what the value of it because you know what you put into it in order to achieve it, but you also have in the back of your mind this incentive to wait because you know the to to give it time because you know that the weight of everyone else's resources are going to are going to increase over time.

你知道这将占据经济池中更大的份额...抱歉。

You know that it's going to be a greater portion of the economic pool or excuse me.

未来相同的比例将对应更庞大经济资源池中的百分比。

It's a greater percentage the the same percentage of a greater economic pool of resources later in the future.

因此，你不仅因节约个人资源获益，更通过为社会发展而节约社会资源获得双重收益。

And therefore, you benefit also not only from conserving your own resources, but conserving society's resources for the sake of making society better.

你无需明白。

And you don't have to know.

你无需知道原因，但这就是原因。

You don't have to know that that's why, but that's why.

这就是它发生的原因。

That's why it's happening.

它激励你去希望或做出决定，为了让社会变得更好，最终目的是让你自己的生活更美好。

It's incentivizing you to hope or or to to make a decision in order to make society better for the purposes of making your own life better.

它正是以这种方式引导着你。

It is aligning you in that way.

因此在获得个人利益的同时，也产生了集体利益。

So there's a collective benefit at the exact same time that there's an individual benefit.

是的。

Yeah.

我们把这种反映称为‘数字上升’。

And that that reflection we refer to as number go up.

数字上升——这就是它的本质。

Number go That is what that is.

这就是那种反映的本质。

Is what that reflection is.

确实如此。

And yeah.

反之亦然。

And the opposite is true as well.

比如，这就是为什么在实行价格管控的国家，你会看到超市货架空空如也——因为社会主义和其他自然灾害的失败并非由于缺乏激励。

Like, that's why you see empty shelves on supermarkets in in countries with price controls because socialism and other natural disasters don't fail because of a lack of incentives.

它们失败的首要原因是对价格信号的操纵。

They they they fail because of a manipulation of the price signal, first and foremost.

因激励措施的成功而失败。

Fail because of the success of their incentives.

是啊。

Yeah.

从某种程度上说，确实如此。

In a way, that's true.

但问题是，如果有人用枪指着你的头，再加上某个将军命令你动手，这招确实管用。

But, like, the thing is, if you have a gun to your head, and people and and some general tells you, whack, it will work.

所以这不是激励的问题。

Like, so it's not the incentives.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这是价格信号的问题。

It is the pricing signal.

因为没有合理的定价机制，人们就不知道该生产什么、何时生产以及生产多少。

Because if you have no proper pricing mechanism, people don't know what to produce and when in what quantities.

所以这完全相反——

So it's the literal opposite of the Yeah.

与比特币中'数字上涨技术'相反。

Of the number go up technology in Bitcoin.

这是'一切下跌技术'。

It's not it's everything go down technology.

就像是'一切都完蛋的技术'。

Like, everything go to shit technology.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我很高兴你很喜欢这两套视频系列。

I I'm glad you pre enjoy the the two sets video series.

我还没有太多时间去投入，但我很喜欢它。

I haven't had a ton of time to dedicate Love it.

投入其中。

To it.

但实际上我已经有大约23个项目启动，都是些小想法。

But I've literally got like 23 of them as far as like project started for like little ideas.

我正在尝试决定接下来该做哪一个。

And I'm trying to figure out which one to do next.

而且要把很多这些想法压缩到四分钟左右，还要保持连贯性，真的很难。

And it's really hard to break a lot of these ideas down into like four minutes, like cohesively.

这就是我正在努力做的，目标是控制在四分钟以内。

And that's kind of what I'm trying to do is sub four minutes as my goal.

如果能压缩到两分钟就完美了，但对很多内容来说，要完整解释清楚确实不太现实。

If I can get into two, it'd be perfect, but it's unrealistic for a lot of them, to really explain it.

但我有个特别想讨论的话题，因为我觉得人们没有充分认识到：技术没有让生活变得更好的原因，想想过去三四十年技术的背景。

But I've got one that I wanna talk about because I think it's not really appreciated, is that there's a reason that technology doesn't make our lives better, that that technology like, think of it in the context of, like, last thirty or forty years.

想想我们技术领域那些令人难以置信的创新规模和翻天覆地的变化。

Think about the absolutely incredible scale of innovation and drastic changes in our technological landscape.

为什么我们没有更多时间？

How is it that we don't have more time?

我们没有时间了。

We have no more time.

我们没有时间了。

We have no more time.

事实上，恰恰相反。

In fact, quite the opposite.

许多人的时间反而更少了。

A lot of people have less time.

技术已经大幅进步，但它所做的只是加速了经济运转。

Technology has gotten drastically better, but all it has done done is sped up the economy.

它根本没有解放经济。

It has not freed up the economy at all.

这明确且唯一地是因为我们没有健全的货币体系。

And this is explicitly and only because we don't have sound money.

这个机制与技术完全无关。

Like, this is a mechanism that has nothing to do with technology.

技术实际上在发挥作用，但它实际上让通货膨胀变得更严重。

Technology is actually doing its job, but what it is actually allowing is for the inflation to be worse.

我指的不是CPI那种价格通胀。

And I don't mean that in the context of, like, CPI, like price inflation.

从技术角度来看，它实际上是一股巨大的通缩力量。

It's actually a massive deflationary force from the techno technological standpoint.

我是说，真正能保持物价稳定所需的通胀水平或允许的通胀水平。

I mean, the amount of inflation that is needed or enabled that would actually keep prices stable.

技术的目的是让价格下降。

The purpose of technology is that prices are supposed to fall.

随着事物和技术的进步，价格理应下降。

As things get better and as technology gets better, it's supposed to fall.

如果我们真的拥有健全货币，实际上我们将拥有大量可自由支配的时间。

And if we actually had sound money, we would actually have just gargantuan amounts more time at our disposal.

比如，我们将有闲暇做决定或改变想做的事，工作被自动化取代也无所谓，因为这对我们更有利。

Like, we would have our leisure to make decisions or to change what we want to do, and it wouldn't matter that our job got automated away because that would be better for us.

就在工作被自动化的同时，我们全年获得的报酬也会增值10%。

At the exact same time that it got automated away, what we got paid all year is also 10% more valuable.

所以实际上每次看似有退步时，你都能持续保持领先优势。

So you'd actually you'd be constantly ahead of the game every single time it appeared that there was a fallback.

而通胀环境下，当你印钞并急于追赶时，工资总是最后调整的。

Whereas what we have with inflation, when you're printing money and rushing to catch up, wages are always the last thing to move.

工资薪酬，即使在垃圾法币经济学里也被称为粘性价格，因为它们是经济中调整最慢、合约期最长的部分。

Wages, salaries, they're they are literally refer even in shit fiat economics, they are referred to as sticky prices because they are the slowest moving, longest contractual obligations in the economy.

因此调整工资是件奇怪且困难的事。

Therefore, it's weird and all it's it's a difficult thing to change them.

五小时内改变咖啡价格极其容易。

It's extremely easy to change the price of a coffee in five hours.

改变汽油价格。

Change the price of gas.

你可以实时看到它发生。

You can see it happen live.

你可以开车进加油站，看着价格跳涨一美分、两美分。

You can pull into the gas station and watch that thing tick up a a penny, 2 pennies.

就像，他们立刻就会调整价格。

Like, they change it immediately.

一旦他们需要采购的商品价格变动，商品售价就会立即跟着变化。

As soon as the commodity changes that they have to purchase, the the price of the good changes.

你的工资最快也要一年才能跟上这种变化——如果你够幸运的话。这意味着在通胀和法币体系下，你永远在追赶归零的路上。而实际情况恰恰相反。

Your wages will take a year to catch up to that at best if you're lucky, which means that you are always racing back to zero under inflation, under a fiat system, whereas literally the exact opposite occurs.

你的工资会原地踏步一年，而价格却在通胀期间逐步下降，这意味着你

Your wages stay where they are for a year while the price ticks down during inflation, which means that you are

始终处于

in a permanently ahead of

优势地位，即便你什么都不做。

the game even if you do nothing.

即使你没有改变或改善现状，你依然在受益。

Even if you do not change or better your situation, you are benefiting.

最贴切的类比就是机场那些愚蠢的自动步道——法币体系就像始终在逆向运行的步道。

It's literally literally the perfect analogy are those stupid sidewalks in the airport is fiat is going the wrong way on the sidewalk at all times.

如果你停下或做任何事，只要没有前进，实际上就是在倒退。

And if you stop or do anything, if you're not moving forward, you are literally moving backwards.

只有当你奔跑的速度超过反向移动的步道时，才算真正向前迈进。

And you only get to move genuinely forward, forward in space in in a realistic sense if you are running faster than the the moving sidewalk is going the other way.

而且你也不知道它在任何一个时间点会移动得多快。

And you also don't know how fast it's gonna be moving at any one point of time one one point in time.

它会突然变得非常快，而你不得不全力冲刺。

It'll just get really fast suddenly, and you have to sprint.

而比特币或稳健货币本质上就像一条自动人行道，正朝着你本该前进的方向移动。

Whereas Bitcoin or just sound money in general is literally on the moving sidewalk that is moving in the direction that you're supposed to be going.

所以如果你向前走，你就在取得真正的进步。

So if you are walking forward, you're making real progress.

即使你没有向前走，你仍在进步，因为其他人都在前进，而你可以共享货币基础带来的红利。

And if you aren't walking forward, you're still making progress because everybody else is, and you get to share it with the foundation of the money.

这太疯狂了。

It's so crazy.

这本质上就是两种社会的区别：一种是人们互相撕咬、争夺不断枯竭的资源；另一种是社会协作，所有人他妈的同时受益。

It literally is the difference between society at each other's throats competing for resources that are constantly constantly depleting or society in cooperation and everybody benefiting at the same fucking time.

这正是人们高谈阔论时说的屁话——说什么要让社会成员通力合作，结果却通过互相割喉、用枪指着你脑袋、抢走你所有财物来实现。

It is the exact same thing that everybody pontificates and gives some bullshit speech about how we're gonna make society have everybody work together, and then they do it by slitting each other's throats and putting a gun to your head and stealing all of your shit.

这就好比，如果你他妈的停止捣乱，不再把欺诈作为整个体系的根基，猜猜会怎样？

And it's like, well, if you just stop fucking with everything and putting fraud at the base of the entire system, well, guess what?

合作自然会实现，因为比特币揭示了一个显而易见的事实：只要我们他妈的合作，一切都会好得多。

It would just happen naturally because turns out Bitcoin points out the obvious that things are a whole lot better if we just fucking cooperate.

是啊。

Yeah.

我我太爱送货员这种激情了。

I I love I love the passion of the delivery guy.

就像这样，这就是为什么我喜欢我的两套视频，因为传递信息时的热情。

Like like and this is why I love the my two sets videos because of the passion of the delivery of the message.

因为你能感受到那是发自内心的。

Because you can tell that it's it's heartfelt.

就像这样，这是

And like, this is

通常还会伴随着脏话。

It usually comes with cursing.

我有时间在我的两套视频里把它哔掉，有时间把它剪掉。

I I have time to bleep it out in my I have time to cut it out in my two sets.

但是，是啊。

But Yeah.

我们这节目可不说他妈的脏话，老兄。

We don't fucking curse on this show, man.

我们他妈的不说脏话。

We don't fucking curse.

是吗？

The Yeah?

所以问题是，在《小丑世界》这本书里有一章开头就提出了一个问题，这与整个现象密切相关。

So the the thing is, there's a one of the chapters in the Clown World book starts by by asking the question, and this this is very much tied to this whole phenomenon.

它问，如果你反复练习做某件事，你通常会做得更好还是更差？

It it asks the question, if you practice do it doing something over and over again, do you usually get better at that task or worse at doing that task?

答案显而易见。

And the answer is obvious.

对大多数人来说，只要练习就会进步。

Like for most people, if they practice, they get better.

是啊。

Yeah.

如果我练习弹奏贝多芬的钢琴曲，虽然可能还是很糟糕，但比以前强多了。

If I practice playing Beethoven on piano, I get I I might still be shit, but I'm better than I than I used to be.

关键就在这里。

Like and this is the thing.

但随之而来的问题是——为什么物价还在上涨？这个问题却没人自问。

The the the follow-up question to that question that nobody asks themselves is then, why are prices going up then?

没错。

Yeah.

因为如果我们练习...这个切入点很棒

Like, because if we if we practice That was a great

这样的表述方式很好。

way to frame it.

就像在开篇段落那样，为整个章节定下基调。

And it was like in the opening paragraph or whatever just to to set the stage for that whole chapter.

那是第几章来着？

Which one was that one?

刚才说什么？

What was that?

我记得是后面某一章的内容。

That was one of the latter chapters, I think.

是啊。

Yeah.

但我想这就是重点了。

But I think that's that's the gist of it.

如果你想用更好的货币储蓄，并且现在就想免费获得20,000聪（约合比特币10万美元时的20美元）。

If you wanna save in better money and you want 20,000 sats for free right now, it's about $20 at a $100,000 of Bitcoin.

看看Fold吧。

Check out Fold.

每次我刷这张卡时，都能获得0.5%的返利，有时1%，有时甚至1.5%。

Every time I swipe this card, I get point 5%, sometimes one, sometimes even one and a half percent.

购买大商户的礼品卡时，我能获得2%、3%、5%甚至10%的返利。

I can get two, three, five, even 10% on gift cards with major merchants.

从零钱凑整、礼品卡、自动累积到每笔消费的聪返利，Fold真的帮我搞定了一切，而且都以比特币结算。

Between the roundups, the gift cards, the auto stacking, the SatsBack on every single swipe, Fold literally does all of the work for me, and it is denominated in Bitcoin.

仅用这张卡，我的储蓄就超过了美国90%的普通消费者。

And I have more savings just by using this card than, like, 90% of The United States normal consumer.

我这里有推荐链接。

I've got referral link for you right here.

感谢Fold赞助我的工作，老实说它是我践行比特币标准最重要的服务。

Shout out to Fold for sponsoring my work and honestly being the most important service for my being on a Bitcoin standard.

所以，我们当然要借机问问你对这本书的看法，你最主要的收获是什么，与我的前作有何不同，以及你如何看待...

So, yeah, I'm I'm we're gonna take the opportunity, of course, of asking you what you thought about the book, and if you what your main takeaways are, and what what how this differs from my previous books, and what what what's your take on the do

与前作的不同之处。

differ from previous books.

这是个好问题。

That's a good question.

那就忘了吧。

Forget that then.

只是你的一些总体想法。

Just just your general thoughts.

嗯，我会好好考虑一下。

Well, I'll I'll think on that one.

我会让这个问题先沉淀一会儿。

I'll I'll let that one I'll let that one simmer for a minute.

也许我们稍后再讨论。

Maybe we'll come back to it.

我很喜欢这本书。

I love the book.

显然，非常喜欢这本书。

Obviously, love the book.

我一直对你的写作风格情有独钟，这次很高兴看到卢克也加入进来共同完成。你最后在后续阶段说的那句话——如果我没记错的话。

I've I've always I've always, like, always had a thing for your writing, and I love that Luke has been added in on this one to to piece this together and, what you said towards the I think you said this at the end in the the post phase, if I'm not mistaken.

但卢克做得很好，他赋予了作品结构，几乎是以故事的形式将其串联起来，就像拼图一样。

But how, like, Luke did a good job of giving it structure and and putting it together in almost almost kind of a story fashion, like like, it the pieces the puzzle.

用拼图来比喻可能更贴切。

Puzzle's probably the better analogy.

这些碎片被完美拼接成一幅画面，恰好呈现了你想要精彩描绘的图景。

Is the pieces put put together really well to end up with a picture and with the picture that I think you were trying to illustrate really well.

但我真的非常喜欢这本书。

And but I absolutely love the book.

可能我最大的收获，老兄，这很难说，因为我要把所有内容都和之前的书混在一起。

Probably my biggest takeaway, man, it's hard to say because I I'm I'm gonna mix everything with previous books.

很难将这本书从整个作品、整个系列中单独分离出来。

It's hard to separate out this one from the entire the entire work, the the entire set of works.

但我想回到你刚才提出的观点，或者你做的那个类比——如果不断练习某件事，会变得更好吗？

But I think going back to the point that you just made about, or the analogy that you just made on if you practice at something, does it get better?

为什么这不会导致价格下降呢？

Why doesn't this why doesn't this result in falling prices?

我认为这本书最棒的地方在于你如何巧妙地将非常显而易见的内容与对大多数人来说非常不明显的难点联系起来——这正是我在两个Sats视频中努力尝试并希望继续做到的。

I think one of the best things about this book is how well you've put together, and this is what I've tried really, really hard to do on my two Sats videos, and I and I want to continue to do in my two Sats videos, is taking something that's very obvious and attaching it to something very difficult, like very not obvious for most people.

而你确实做到了这一点。

And and you cut you hit that.

你们基本上在每一章都做到了这点。

You guys hit that in basically every single chapter.

对吧？

Right?

就是你从这个简单的概念开始，你知道的。

Is you start with this is this is the simple idea that you know.

就像你在对读者说，你知道这是对的。

Like, you're talking to the readers, you know this is true.

你知道这是对的。

You know this is true.

难道这不应该是必然的吗？

Wouldn't this have to follow?

我们究竟是怎么被引导去相信这是显而易见的？

How on earth have we been led to believe that it's the obvious?

我是说，当你明知这是事实时，在这里应用时却恰恰相反，这种情况何时会出现？

I mean, is it when that it's the opposite when applied here when you know this is true?

归根结底，类比或那种精确定位的概念能让事情变得清晰——对于经常尝试这么做的人来说，这其实非常困难。

And boiling down to an analogy or that, like, kind of pinpoint idea that makes that clear as someone who tries to do that a lot is very difficult.

我知道这非常困难，至少对我来说是这样，而且我已经非常非常努力了。

I know that that is very difficult or at least it's very difficult for me and I try really really hard.

所以这本书给我最大的收获大概是——我可能从中获得了七八条实实在在的重点，那些紫色标记的内容，我打算回头整理出来，可能某天会发到推特上。

So that's probably my biggest takeaway with this book is is how well I probably got like seven or eight like solid highlights from this book that are, purple highlights which I I refer to as I'm gonna come back and I'm gonna post this somewhere on Twitter probably at some point.

而且我认为几乎每一条都是这样的例子：某个极其明显或直觉性的概念，当你以正确方式应用到更宏观的经济理论或量子世界现象时...

And, I think pretty much every single one of them is an example of something like that where there's an extremely like a very obvious or intuitive idea that when you apply it in the right way to the larger economic idea or the the this is what happens in quantum world.

为什么会发生这种情况？

Why would that happen?

怎么可能...这怎么可能是自然发生的？然后本章剩余部分会剖析为何事实并非如此。

How how could it possibly be that this is naturally occurring and then breaking down in the rest of the chapter why it's not?

这根本就不自然。

Like, this is just not natural.

而你忽略的是，这个极其重要的等式组成部分被完全颠倒了。

And what you've missed is that this this incredibly important piece of the equation is turned upside down.

我觉得这很有趣，因为你所做的其实是拿一个扎实的基础概念，把它翻转过来，然后你就在解释这个荒谬的世界。

And I think that that is which is funny because what you're doing is you're taking a a a good I a solid idea or a really foundational idea, and you're flipping it over, and then you're explaining clown world.

所以这很有趣。

So it's funny.

你只是将一个显而易见的概念反转过来解释为何小丑世界存在，而比特币正是小丑世界的反面。

You're just taking the inverse of an obvious idea in order to explain why clown world exists, which is Bitcoin the inverse of clown world.

确实如此。

Exactly.

我是说，我对其中大部分内容都深有共鸣。

I mean, I can I can identify with so much of that?

对我来说，要把这个简单的概念用来解释更复杂的课题非常困难。

It is very difficult for me to to to take this simple idea and to explain a a more complicated subject.

但我认为这正是所有创造性解释工作的核心——无论是科普还是其他领域——你必须回归基本原理，像直升机俯瞰问题般全面审视。

But I think that's at the core of what all explanatory creative things are, like when whether it's popular science or anything else, like, you you have to sort of take it back to first principles and take it back like, take a helicopter view of the problem.

嗯哼。

Like Mhmm.

这个成立那个成立，那他妈为什么结果会是这样？

This is true and this is true, so therefore and why the fuck is it this way then?

其实不是这样，只是你们假装如此。

Well, it isn't, but you're pretending it is.

如果这样的话...那就不对。

Like, if so so so that's no.

我特别喜欢听这个。

I I love to hear that.

这太棒了。

It's it's great.

而且它又绕回来了。

And it ties back to it.

我...当你...在这个节目刚开始时，当你充满激情地描述弗里德曼的四个象限理论时，我意识到那其实就是这本书的精髓所在。

I I you when you like, in the beginning beginning of this show, when you passionately describe them, the Friedmanisch four quadrants, I realized that that's that's the gist of the book, really.

是的。

It's Yeah.

这...这是...

It it's it's

它用多种不同的方式解释了这一点

It's explaining that in a bunch of different

领导力...是的。

l d r of Yeah.

我们书的内容。

Of our book.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

不。

No.

归根结底都是同一个问题。我是说，你可以用无数种方式描述比特币，也可以用无数种方式描述其根本问题，但最终这始终是同一个核心问题——我们正在被造假者窃取财富。

It all it's it all comes down to the same I mean, you can you can describe Bitcoin in so many ways, and you can describe it in describe the underlying problem in so so many ways, but but at the end of the day, it's it's the same underlying problem that we are being stolen from by counterfeiters.

如果不是这样，我们所有人的生活都会变得更好，而且改善速度会不断加快——这正是比特币如此直白地向所有充分理解它的人所揭示的。

If we weren't, we would all be better off and at an ever accelerating pace, which is what Bitcoin has so blatantly pointed out to everyone who has understood it to a sufficient degree.

不，就这样了。

And no, that's that's it.

如果非要我说，这本书与你其他作品最大的不同在于，我认为每一章都——比如主权、数学中的数学、重新构想的独立——因为这些内容更专注于比特币而非《人类行为学》，你在每章核心观点的呈现上做得很好，但我觉得这些内容以这种方式串联起来——这大概要怪卢克。

If I had to if I had to say for my my biggest takeaway on how it's different from your other works is I think each chapter like like, with both sovereignty and math through mathematics and independence independence reimagined, I feel like because these are more Bitcoin specific rather than the Praxeology book, is you do a good job of hitting, like, main ideas for each chapter, but I think these are tied together in this way this this probably Luke's fault.

这些内容以更好的序列相互关联，不仅每章都涵盖了一个非常扎实的观点，而且每一章都建立在上一章的基础上，最终形成连贯整体——就像期末考试要综合所有内容一样。

Is these are tied together in a sequence better where not only does each chapter cover, like, the ground of a really strong idea, but each chapter builds on the last one and then consecutively, you know, kind of like a, you know, your final exam is all of them.

它在阅读过程中逐步构建得很好，而不是孤立呈现后再强行收尾——这可能是我感受到的最大差异。

Like, it does a good job of building up as you read rather than having standalone and then just trying to wrap up or something, you know, maybe like that's probably the biggest takeaway on how it's different or how it felt different while I was reading it.

哦，很高兴听你这么说，因为这正是我们这次的主要目标之一——让内容更连贯。

Oh, very happy to hear that because that was the main, like, one of our main goals with this one, it was to make it more coherent.

所以...不。

So so no.

非常、非常高兴听到这个反馈。

Very, very happy to hear that.

老兄，能参与有声书录制我很开心，一如既往。

I'm glad I got to do the audio, man, as always.

不。

No.

你参与了我超级开心。

I'm super happy you did.

说到比特币...等等。

Speaking of Bitcoin Wait.

更准确地说，是比特币和这个‘在乎矩阵’之类的东西。

More specifically Bitcoin and this give a shit matrix and everything.

比如，我很好奇你对整个垃圾邮件辩论、比特币的攻击向量以及二层网络攻击等问题的看法。

Like, I'm curious to take with your take on the the whole spam debate and the attack vectors on Bitcoin and attacks on layer twos and whatever.

因为对我个人而言，我越来越成为一个货币最大化主义者。

Like, be because for myself, I've become more and more of a monetary maximalist.

甚至当我听说他们在时间链上为危地马拉选举打时间戳时，我都感到尴尬。

And I even cringe when I hear this that they're time stamping the Guatemala election on on the time chain.

别那么做。

Don't do that.

这不应该被随意内容填满。

This shouldn't be filled with anything arbitrary.

比如

Like

我认为这是不同的，因为全球时间戳服务器的目的纯粹是为了记录事件顺序，即一个按时间排序的历史。

I would say that's different because the the purpose of the global time stamp server is literally just to have an order of events, like, a chronological history.

明确地说，整个东西就是一个哈希值，这意味着交易实际上甚至不比普通交易大。

And explicitly, the entire thing is a hash, which means that basically, the transaction isn't even bigger than just a normal transaction.

就像简单证明（simple proof）与Carlinas合作的方式，他们所做的一切都是尽可能高效地提取价值——实际上你谈论的是存在于单个哈希中的数万条哈希树记录，它只被打戳一次。

Like, the way the only thing, like, simp the way simple proof is working with, Carlinas and everything that they're doing is the most efficient means of getting that value out of it possible and like literally, you're talking about tens of thousands in this tree of hashes that exist in one hash like, it is stamped one time.

这是唯一的方式，它能提供你所需的所有底层证明。但当你开始将其扩展到诸如出售天上星座这类事情时（这相当于把JPEG图片打戳到区块链上然后声称拥有权），它就变得难以置信地无用——因为它甚至无法提供其宣称出售的实际能力或效用，那些东西根本不存在。

Like, that is the only way and it gives you all of the proof that you could possibly need for anything underneath that as soon as you start extending this out to things like selling constellations in the sky which is the equivalent of stamping a picture JPEG into a into a blockchain and then selling it to somebody like they own it, like, it becomes so unbelievably both useless because it doesn't even give it doesn't even give the the actual capability or the actual utility that it supposedly is selling, like it doesn't even exist.

你无法真正拥有区块链上的东西。

You can't own something in the blockchain.

它不会跟随你移动。

It doesn't move with you.

这并不意味着你可以交易JPEG图片后还能把它放到别处。

It doesn't you don't transact the JPEG and then put the JPEG somewhere else.

你字面上理解没错，但这实际上毫无关联。

You literate literally, there is no connection to it.

这就好比向别人兜售月亮。

It is it is like selling somebody, the moon.

我简直就像在说，我把月亮卖给你了。

I just be like, I sold you the moon.

你完全可以这样说，好吧，我要这么做，我也要把月亮卖给你。

You could just as well just say, well, I'm gonna do it this way and I'm gonna sell you the moon too.

比如，你可以让别人来做这件事，然后你就说，哦，好吧，我接受这家伙的月亮。

Like, you could have somebody else do it and you're just like, oh, well, I accept this guy's moon.

这家伙说月亮归我所有。

This guy says I own the moon.

就好像，嗯，另一个人也说月亮归他所有。

It's like, well, the other guy says I own the moon.

这就像，嗯，它本来就存在那里。

It's like, well, it just exists there.

它存在于每个人的区块链上。

It's on everybody's blockchain.

我可以查看

I can look

在我的电脑上查询。

it up on my computer.

这是我的节点。

It's my node.

不管我想不想要它存在，我都希望能删除它。

Whether I want it to be there or not, I wish I could delete it.

是啊。

Yeah.

问题就在这儿。

That's the thing.

你不仅在出售仙女座星系中的恒星，还强迫人们去观测它。

You're not only selling the star in the Nromeda Galaxy, you're also forcing people to look at it.

就像你强迫人们把望远镜对准那颗特定的恒星。

Like, you're forcing people to aim their telescopes at that specific start.

你在强迫人们无缘无故地存储它。

You're forcing people to to store it for for no reason.

这简直太荒谬了。

Like, you just you just it's so it's so nonsensical.

我依然很喜欢我的比喻，有趣的是我甚至没听到支持者对这个比喻提出异议。

The the way I still I still love my analogy, and I haven't heard anybody even in support of it to to argue against the analogy, which I find interesting.

我认为一个完美的例子就是在公园里大便。

And I think it's a perfect a perfect example is it's pooping in the park.

这是占用公共空间、浪费资源，还让别人来清理你的排泄物。

It's taking a public space and wasting resources and making somebody else have to clean up your shit.

在我看来就是这么回事。

That's that's what it is in my opinion.

在过滤的语境下，如果你想过滤你的内存池或节点，并且不想将其包含在挖矿区块中，那随你便。

Now, in the context of like filtering, like, if you wanna filter your mempool or your node and you don't wanna include it in your mining blocks, more power to you.

100%同意。

100%.

事实上，等冬天我启动矿机时，我会指向海洋——那个海洋矿池。

In fact, I'm I'll be when I turn the miners on for the winter, I'll be pointing it at ocean, the ocean pool.

但与此同时，我认为并没有一个具体的方法。

So but at the same time, I don't think there's a concrete way.

你唯一能做的就是降低激励，但你无法真正阻止它，因为要知道，整个理念就是如果挖矿是去中心化的，你根本无法阻止。

All you can do is disincentivize, and you can't really stop it because, you know, the whole idea is if mining is decentralized, you won't really be able to stop it.

如果内存池策略是去中心化的，你也根本无法阻止。

If mempool policy is decentralized, you won't really be able to stop it.

它总会找到途径进入，随它去吧。

And it'll get in, and it's whatever.

他们会支付手续费，这并非世界末日，但我理解你的立场。

They'll pay fees, and it's not it's not in the end of the world, but I mean, I'm with you.

我是个货币极端主义者。

I'm a monetary maximalist.

这是一个全球性的去中心化货币网络。

It's a it's a global decentralized monetary network.

关于强行塞入另一个比喻的想法——我喜欢公园排便的比喻，但我觉得这某种程度上也掩盖了它的价值，要知道公园本就是个该保持美好的地方。

The idea of using it of cramming another another analogy, I like the pooping in the park, but I think it also kind of obscures the value of it because, you know, park is just a nice place to have.

这并非必需品。

It's not a necessity.

而比特币是必需品。

Whereas Bitcoin is a necessity.

但从长远来看，稳健货币关乎社会存亡。

But, like like, sound money is a does society live or die kind of thing on a long enough timeline.

想象一下，如果你有一台机器，能以某种独特完美的方式喂养那些饥饿的人们。

And so it's like imagine is that you had a machine that could feed that could in some incredibly unique and perfect way, it could feed people who are

饥饿的人们。

hungry.

但你的空间极其有限，能操作这台机器的人员容量也极其有限。

But you have an extremely limited space and extremely limited capacity for people to move to to operate this machinery.

结果发现如果你把机器侧翻过来运行10次本该用于喂食的程序，莫名其妙就能复印出你的屁股照片。

But it turns out that if you kinda like flip the machine on its side and run it through like 10 times that would have been for feeding people, somehow you can make a photocopy of your ass and you can get a printed picture of your ass.

当人们排队领取食物时，大批人挤进队伍就为了用这台重要机器复印屁股——这些屁股复印件更有价值，因为能通过这台机器证明资源消耗，他们还炫耀说这张屁股照片耗费了十倍资源，转手就要卖掉它。

And then while people are in line trying to get food, a whole bunch of people crowd in line so that they can get photocopies of their ass from the really important machine, and the the ass photocopy is more valuable because it's through this machine that they can prove, and then they brag about this literally took 10 times as many resources to get this picture of my ass, and then I'm gonna sell it.

我要卖掉它，就为了炫耀我如何浪费这台伟大机器的资源。排队领食物的人都在想：我他妈为什么要排在这种东西后面？

I'm gonna sell it because look how look how I wasted the resources of this incredible, like, monumental machine that we have created, and everybody in line waiting to eat is standing there going, why the fuck am I in line behind this?

为什么我要因为这个复印屁股的蠢货而饿着肚子排队？

Why is this in why am I waiting to eat because of this dumb piece of shit photocopying his ass?

本质上这就是现状，因为这是对机器空间的全球竞价战争。

And that's essentially what it does because this is a global bidding war for space in this in this machine.

这就像在公园拉完屎后还要合影自拍，然后炫耀自己多酷。

And I think to brag, I mean, it's it's literally you're taking a dump in a park and then you're taking a selfie with it, and then you're being like, look how cool I am.

还得让别人来清理，你不仅是个糟糕的资源管理者，更是个傲慢的集体资源挥霍者。

And somebody else has to come by and clean that up because you clearly not only are you a poor steward, you're an arrogant poor steward of our collective resources.

这是一种公共物品。

This is a public good.

我的意思是，用我能想到最文雅的说法来说——去你妈的。

I mean, in a as cleanly as I can say, go fuck yourself.

听着，我对此无能为力，你依然会跑去和你的屎合影，但我会竭尽所能让你觉得自己连屎都不如，因为你的价值甚至比不上你在公园里拉完屎后还与之自拍的那坨排泄物。

Like, there's nothing I can do about it, and you're still gonna go take a picture of you with a shit, but I'm gonna make I'm I will do whatever I can to make you feel like a piece of shit because you are worth less than the piece of shit that you sit you you crapped out in the park and then took a selfie with.

是啊。

Yeah.

我完全同意。

I couldn't agree more.

就像你说的，在技术层面上几乎无计可施，除非——

Like and it's as you say, there's very little one can do on a technical level except,

你知道的，

you know,

让你的矿机指向大海之类的，或者至少选择某种透明的方式。

point your your miners at the ocean or something something similar or something at least transparent.

但我觉得我们能做的是教育大众。

But I would say the thing we can do is educate people.

所以这里更重要的事情是让人们明白中本聪与互联网上任何事物都截然不同，因为它并不存在于互联网上。

So one of the more important things here is to educate people on why the Satoshi is totally different from anything else on the Internet, because it doesn't live on the Internet.

它不存在于互联网，而是存在于人们的脑海中。

It doesn't exist on the Internet, and it exists in people's heads.

归根结底，推动中本聪的力量正源于此。

At the end of the day, that's where the power of moving the Satoshi resides.

所以Satoshi只是个计量单位。

So the Satoshi is just a measurement stick.

所以我的比喻是，不存在什么稀有Satoshi。

So my analogy is like, is no such thing as a rare Satoshi.

就像厘米不会因为我用它量老二就变得更稀有。

Just as like a a centimeter does not become more rare just because I measure my dick with it.

这些人现在就在干这种事。

And that's what these people are doing.

还强迫所有人都来看他们的老二尺寸。

Like, and forcing everyone to to look at their dick measurements.

差不多是这样。

It's about right.

听起来挺对的。

It sounds about right.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以说

So that's

那个不对。

that's No.

不对。

No.

不对。

No.

不。

No.

你是美国人。

You're American.

我是说英寸。

I mean inch.

英寸。

Inch.

懂吗？

You know?

英寸。

Inch.

顺便问下，你知道为什么阴茎永远不会超过12英寸吗？

You know, by the way, why a penis can never get longer than 12 inches?

我...我不知道。

I I don't know.

卢克显然知道。

Luke apparently does.

因为那就变成一英尺了。（注：foot双关'脚'和'英尺'）

It becomes a foot.

是啊。

Yeah.

这个笑话我听过好几次了。

I'd I'd heard this one a few times.

哦，天啊。

Oh, man.

那就是那就是那就是老爸笑话。

That is that is that is dad joke.

那是老爸笑话的完美典范。

That's dad joke perfected.

你知道，关于这个特定方面，我认为——我是说，我同意教育确实是这里最重要的事情。

You know, the the one thing on on this particular front that that I think I mean, I I agree about the the education is the is the most important thing here.

但我不喜欢的是——当人们在推特上，我是说，我基本上已经不用推特了，现在主要只在Oster上刷刷。

But what what I don't what I don't like is when when people on Twitter and I mean, I I I've pretty much switched off Twitter and gone gone pretty pretty much I only scroll on Oster these days.

一直都是这样。

It's been the same.

是啊。

Yeah.

这对我的心理健康有好处，老兄。

It's been good for my mental health, man.

真的。

Like, seriously.

不过说真的。

But but For real.

但在我们可能切换到Noster之前，先把这事收个尾。

But but just to just to wrap this up before maybe we switch over to Noster for a bit.

问题是当推特空间里有些人会嘲笑任何支持像Ocean这样做的人，说什么这不会有任何改变，哦看啊，过滤兄弟，费用很低。

The the thing is when when when there's there's some people on in the Twitter space that that basically make fun of anyone who who even advocates for doing stuff like what Ocean is doing, like, it's not gonna make any difference and oh, look, filter bros, the fees are low.

这就像是，好吧，不，但那还是不会起作用。

And it's like, well, no, but that's that's not still gonna do it.

确实如此。

Exactly.

而且而且而且就像它是无需许可的。

And and and like it's it's permissionless.

我是说，我我真的很喜欢

And I mean, I I love

如果他们愿意，他们可以自我感觉良好。

that They can feel good about themselves if they want.

是啊。

Yeah.

然后还有这些故障出现。

And and then there's the there's been these breakdowns.

比如，鲍勃·伯内特去查看了他从比较中获得的费用，像是比较了几个FPPS矿池，显然是一两个FPPS矿池，但他没有点名。

Like, Bob Burnett has has gone and looked at the the the fees that he he took in from from comparing, like, an FPPS pool, apparently, a couple of FPPS pools, and he didn't name them.

他没有指名道姓，还有Ocean矿池。

He he's he's not naming names and ocean.

而且Ocean矿工在那段时间里支付了更多，而且那段时间也不短。

And the ocean miners paid out more over that that period of time, and it wasn't a short period of time either.

所以就像是，这里有些问题存在。

So it's like, there's something there's something here.

矿池透明度。

Mining pool transparency.

我认为这才是真正的问题所在。

I I think that is is kind of the real issue here.

让所有人都公开透明。

Get everyone out into the open.

把所有事情都公开，并以透明的方式处理。

Get everything out into the open and everything's done in a transparent way.

那样的话，也许我们都能摊牌了。

Then then maybe we can all put cards on the table.

如果你想挖你的矿，好吧。

And if you wanna go mine your dick butts, like, okay.

行吧。

Fine.

我不会喜欢你，但这就是现有的系统。

I'm not gonna like you, but but it is the system as it exists.

所以，马拉松可以挖他们的矿，目前这是允许的。

And so, you know, Marathon can go mine an m, and they're allowed to currently.

我希望不是这样，但既然除了硬分叉基本没有其他选择，因为据我理解，这个词已经和系统绑定了。

I wish it weren't the case, but since there's basically no alternative than to basically a hard fork, because I understand it, the word stuck with the system.

所以这...

So it's it's

我100%确定甚至存在硬分叉修复方案，因为我觉得这只会改变需要采用的方法来使其运作。

a 100% sure there is even, like, a hard fork fix because I think it would just kind of change the methodology that would have to be applied in order to get it to work.

但我认为在很多方面，这几乎是公理性的——总会有办法的，因为任何创建区块的人都能决定交易如何组合。

But I think in a lot of ways, it's just kind of axiomatic that there's going to be ways to like, because anybody who is making a block can construct the way the transactions go together.

你在那边做什么？

What are you doing over there?

我在给种子打钢印。

I'm stamping my seed.

大家都说我应该这么做。

Everyone tells me I should.

这对比特币安全有好处之类的，还说我应该全力投入比特币安全。

It is good for Bitcoin security and whatnot, and that I should go balls deep into Bitcoin security.

所以我在打钢印。

So I'm stamping.

不行。

No.

你不能这么做

You don't do it

不是这样的，克努特。

like that, Knut.

你不能给那个种子打钢印。

You don't stamp that seed.

你要打钢印的是助记词。

You stamp your seed phrase.

什么？

What?

你的助记词。

Your seed phrase.

哦，原来这些东西是干这个用的。

Oh, so that's what these things are for.

这些都是他们寄给我的东西。

All of this stuff that they sent me.

就像，哦哦，我现在明白了。

Like, oh oh, I get it now.

完全正确，克努特。

That's exactly right, Knut.

你可以在stampseed.com上找到所有用来压印助记词的工具。

And you can get everything you need to stamp your seed phrase at stampseed.com.

别忘了看看我们限量版的'一切除以2100万'钛合金助记词板。

And be sure to check out our limited edition everything divided by 21,000,000 titanium seed plate.

结账时使用代码infinity可享85折优惠。

And use code infinity at checkout for 15% off.

太棒了。

That's fantastic.

而且这样痛苦少多了。

And it hurts way less.

本节目由比特币顾问赞助播出，这里是专业比特币管理的首选平台。

This show is brought to you by the Bitcoin advisor, your premier destination for professional Bitcoin management.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以如果你需要比特币遗产规划或其他相关帮助，可以给我们打电话或发私信，因为我们是比特币顾问。

So if you want help with your Bitcoin inheritance planning or anything like that, you can call us or send us a DM because we're Bitcoin advisors.

确实如此。

Exactly.

他们自2016年起就为比特币客户提供服务，提供一流的比特币礼宾服务，包括协同托管和遗产规划。

They've been serving Bitcoin clients since 2016, and they offer a top notch Bitcoin concierge service, including collaborative custody and estate planning.

我们之所以加入比特币顾问团队，是因为我们百分百相信他们的事业。

We're on the Bitcoin advisor team ourselves because we believe 100% in what they're doing.

我们很乐意在电话中为您详细介绍比特币顾问服务。

We're happy to tell you more about the Bitcoin advisor on a call.

欢迎访问bitcoinadvisor.com，或直接给我们发私信获取比特币建议。

So check out the bitcoinadvisor.com or just simply shoot us a DM for some Bitcoin advice.

嘿，亲爱的听众。

Hey, dear listener.

别忘了点赞、订阅、刷牙。

Don't forget to like, subscribe, brush your teeth.

如果您喜欢我们的节目，最好的支持方式就是在您最爱的社交媒体平台上帮我们宣传。

And if you're enjoying the show, the best way you can help us out is spreading the word on your favorite social media platform.

我们用的是Noster。

Ours is Noster.

节目会先在Noster发布，新集目会提前一天上线Noster。

The show is going Noster first, posting the episodes on Noster one day early.

若想支持节目，最简单的方式就是在Noster上给我们发送Zap打赏，使用价值对等播客应用发送助力，或在比特币无限商店选购商品。

And if you'd like to support the show, the easiest way to do that is is to send us a Zap on Noster, use a value for value podcasting app to send us a boost, or pick something up from the Bitcoin Infinity store.

感谢您的支持。

We appreciate the support.

是的。

Yeah.

快去点赞，快去订阅，现在就去刷牙。

Go go click like, go click subscribe, and go brush your teeth now.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为关于序数话题的最后一点是，尽管其中某些情况确实存在被利用的可能，但并没有两个具体的漏洞正在被实际利用。

I think the the the last point that I had on on the sort of the the ordinals topic was that there aren't, like, two specific bugs that are actually being exploited, though, like, for for some of these things.

比如，这个逻辑上的完全错误是否可以通过修补来避免，很多这类问题本不该发生。

Like, is this this false if thing, like, this just complete failure in logic that could just get sewn up, and a lot of this stuff can't happen.

然后Stamps正在利用另一个问题，比如这个熊多签机制，这实在太...

And then Stamps is exploiting something else, like this bear multisig thing, and it's so

是的。

so Yeah.

Stamps是最糟糕的，因为它明目张胆地...最疯狂的是他们创造它时，真正让我震惊的是他们居然在炫耀自己发现了更恶劣的东西。

Stamps is the worst because it because it's explicitly and what's crazy is that they created it because like, that was one of the things that, like, really got me is that they were legitimately bragging about the fact that they found something that is worse.

而它唯一的价值在于，这有点像发现如果你吃了很多塔可钟，清理公园里的粪便会困难得多，就像，看，我能在公园里制造腹泻，而且这个比那个更难，现在我要和这个自拍一张。

And that was its only value is that they it's kinda like it's kinda like finding out that if you ate a lot of Taco Bell, it's a whole lot harder to clean up the poop out of the park and it's like, look, I can make diarrhea in the park and and this one's this one's even more difficult and now I'm gonna take a selfie with this one.

而这些邮票会永久性地膨胀UTXO集。

And the the stamps permanently bloat the UTXO set.

对此确实没什么可做的，除了——我是说，我想在某个时候它们应该是可识别的。

And there's not really anything to be done about it except for I mean, I guess I guess at some point I guess they're identifiable.

所以或许你可以手动在客户端修剪你的UTXO，如果我没记错的话。

So maybe you could just prune from your UTX like manually prune on the client side, if I'm not mistaken.

好吧，无论如何，这是FPPS与Ocean相比最有趣的地方，我和Mechanic讨论了很多，这有点令人震惊，FPPS基本上就是他们给出他们认为需要支付的最低限额，而他们的实际利差比声称的要大得多。

Well, regardless, regardless, it's the interesting thing about the whole FPPS versus Ocean, and I talked with Mechanic a lot about this and it's kinda like mind blowing, is the FPPS is them just like basically apparently giving the bare minimum of what they think they'll have to pay out and that their spread is a lot bigger than they actually say it is.

而Ocean，我认为说‘哦，你用Ocean是因为你想过滤’也是一种误解。

And Ocean, I think it's a misunderstanding as well to just say that, oh, you use ocean because you wanna filter.

不是。

No.

你用Ocean是因为你想有选择权。

You use ocean because you wanna be able to choose.

这是因为你实际上想要构建区块模板，而在另一种情况下你只是按照矿池的意愿行事。

It's because you actually wanna be able to construct the block template, whereas you're just doing whatever the mining pool wants to do in the other situation.

就像，他们现在已经设置好让你可以直接选择。

Like, by the they've set it up now that you can just choose.

你仍然可以挖Ordinals，或者说，Ordinals不是重点。

You can you can still mine ordinals and or, well, the ordinals is not the thing.

你可以挖铭文和邮票，以及，你知道的，其他任何东西。

You can mine inscriptions and stamps and, you know, whatever.

如果你需要，他们有适合你的过滤器。

If you want, they have a filter for you.

就是说，当你想要使用他们的默认过滤器或模板时，他们甚至算不上真正的‘他们’，因为这些默认选项本身就带有过滤器。

Like, they're not even they if you want to use theirs, the default filter or the default template is with the filter.

他们甚至没有告诉你不能这样做，或者强制要求任何人。

They're not even telling you that you can't or for enforcing on anybody.

他们实际上只是试图将这个流程去中心化，让人们能够自主选择——因为他们认为如果人们有选择权，大多数人会出人意料地选择使用过滤器。而更令人惊讶的是，即便如此你最终通过Ocean平台获得的收益反而更高，毕竟Ocean根本没打算坑你。

They're literally just trying to decentralize this process so that people can choose because they think if people can choose, most will choose to shockingly or or and most will choose to do the filters, and the surprising fact of that is that you still end up making a higher payout with Ocean because Ocean just isn't trying to screw you.

这些收益本质上只是概率性的。

The the payouts are just are just probabilistic.

收益基于挖矿过程本身，具有更强随机性，但最终数据相当可观。就像他提到的某些统计数据——尽管规模仍然有限——以至于他在首轮讨论中提到，当时正在与一个使用该系统的矿工交流（确切地说是个规模较大的矿工），并询问对方是否愿意公开分享这个情况。

They're they're based on the mining itself, and it's it's more random, but it ends up being a significant like, some of the stats, even for as small as they still are, to the point that he said he was talking to a and I think he mentioned this in the first round table maybe, but he was talking to a minor who is using them, a a larger minor who is using them, and he asked, he's like, well, could you share this publicly or whatever?

因为他们通过这个方式获得的收益比其他渠道高出相当显著的百分比。

Because they were making a pretty significant percentage above what they were making with the others.

他问：‘你愿意把这个情况公开分享吗？’

He says, would you, you know, be willing to share this out?

对方回答：‘抱歉，不行。’

And he said, sorry, but no.

‘我不想告诉别人，因为这样收益差距可能就会消失。’

I don't wanna tell other people because the gap will probably go away.

他解释说：‘我现在能赚更多，就是因为其他人还不知道这个方法。’

Like, he says, I'm making more because other people don't know about this right now.

‘所以我实在没理由到处宣传自己通过这个方式多赚了百分之X。’

So I don't really have any good reason to spread the word on the fact that I have x percent more by using this.

然后他他他说，你知道的，出于隐私考虑，我不想透露是谁，但这这确实是个有趣的观点。

And then he he he said, you know, for the sake of privacy, I don't wanna tell who that is, but that's that's an in that's an interesting point.

所以我打算把我的未成年人转给...我是说，我已经和Ocean Air安排好了，随便吧。

So but I'll be turning my minors to I mean, I've set up with Ocean Air, whatever.

我只是觉得天气实在太热了，没法在家里处理这些事情。

I just it's just been too damn hot to run the things in the house.

这真是太他妈有趣了。

This is so damn interesting.

就像，从很多角度来看，我我我想关于邮票的反方观点可能是比特币在被攻击时反而会蓬勃发展。

Like, from so many perspectives, I I I guess the the devil's advocate thing on the stamps would be that Bitcoin thrives when attacked.

就像，我们应该从各种角度攻击它，然后看看会发生什么。

Like, we should attack it from all sorts of vectors, and let's see what happens.

所以也许这就是我们必须付出的代价才能达到

So maybe this is the price we have to pay to get to

那个点，是的。

the point of Yeah.

二进制那会很棒。

The binary That would be great.

没错。

Exactly.

而且也许这个权衡是值得的，只有时间能证明，你知道的。

And and maybe the trade off is worth only time can tell, you know.

但这也是困扰我的一件事，当思考博弈论和攻击向量之类的问题时，就是在比特币玩家中存在这种现象：我们都没有动机去暴力相向，互相攻击。

But it's also the thing one thing that has bothered me when thinking about the the game theory and attack vectors and such, is that you have this among Bitcoiners that we're all incentivized to we're not incentivized to be violent, to aggressive against one another.

因为当你无法知晓时，你就不可能知道另一个人拥有多少比特币，这根本不可能。

Because when you can't know, you cannot know how many Bitcoins another person has, like it's impossible.

因此，攻击那个人永远是最糟糕的选择，如果你不得不在攻击和提供有价值回报之间做选择的话。

And therefore, attacking that person is always the worst choice that if you have to choose between that and providing something of value back.

所以你要通过提供价值回报来获取比特币。

So you extract the Bitcoin by providing value back.

所以这就是它如此美妙并促进世界和平等的原因。

So so that's how it's so beautiful and promotes world peace and stuff.

但对矿工来说并非如此。

But it's not true for miners.

矿工实际上有动机，至少在理论上，会相互攻击。

Miners actually have an an incentive to, at least theoretically, to attack one another.

这就像是，我理解错了吗？

And this is like, am I getting this wrong?

是不是有什么博弈论的东西我没考虑到？

Is this is there a game theoretical thing here that I'm missing?

还是说矿工们有动机暗中相互攻击，比如穿着忍者服潜入别人的矿场搞破坏，然后嫁祸给第三方矿工？

Or are miners incentivized to, you know, covertly attack one another, blow up go into someone else's mining facility in a ninja suit and blow it up and blame the third miner?

比如，盖伊对此有什么看法？

Like, what do you what what's Guy's take?

我是说，嗯，大概吧。

I mean, yeah, probably.

是啊。

Yeah.

因为矿工参与其中，他们并不与网络竞争。

Because miners are in they're not in competition with the network.

他们有动力保护网络，因为网络维护并掌控着他们的收益，或者说，制定规则并决定他们如何获得报酬的价值。

They are incentivized to protect the network because the network defends and owns their payout or or, you know, creates the rules and the value of how they get compensated.

但他们彼此之间却在进行一场零和博弈，其中产出与投入被明确限制，完全是竞争性的。这正是为什么对生态系统或挖矿功能本身来说，尽可能纯粹开放、尽可能纯粹概率化至关重要——不能存在MEV优势或系统外的操控手段，比如通过交易排序或重新排序已确认交易等方式来额外获利。这也是为什么比特币的可表达性实际上潜藏着相当大的风险：更多资本可能仅仅通过改变交易进入比特币的方式就能获利，而非简单地遵循‘手续费最高者优先入块’这种天真假设。

But they are in competition with each other in a zero sum game where the the output versus the input is explicitly limited and, and is purely competitive, which is exactly why you it is it is critical for the the ecosystem or or the mining function itself to be as purely open as possible and as purely probabilistic as possible, that there is no, you know, MEV advantage or out of band, like, gaming of the system that can be done with how you order transactions or in reordering transactions that have already been ordered, etcetera, where you can make more money on and this is why, you know, expressivity in Bitcoin is actually potential and pretty significant risk, is that more capital could be made, or a significant portion of the capital could be made in just altering how transactions get into Bitcoin rather than just kind of the very naive assumption of grab the thing with the most fee and stick it in the top of your block.

明白吗？

You know?

我刚刚读了一篇Matt Carollo写的《别再叫它MEV》，文章对这个概念解析得很到位，但内容非常晦涩。

And I I actually just read a piece called Stop Calling It MEV by Matt Carollo, which I think does a good job of breaking down the concept, but it is very obscure.

仍然很难准确界定其具体含义。

It's still really hard to kinda like pin pin down exactly what is meant.

我认为最好的方式是以以太坊作为参照。

And I think the best thing is just to use Ethereum as a comparison.

关于以太坊，有一点让我特别震惊——我几乎不敢相信这是真的。

And one of the things that got me about Ethereum, I almost I didn't believe it to the point.

我原以为这只是比特币极端分子的夸大其词，毕竟要编造以太坊的负面消息很容易，因为它本身就是垃圾，整个项目始于骗局。

Like, I thought it was just bud from bit corners that was exaggerated, because, you know, it's easy to just like make up something that's really bad about Ethereum because Ethereum is garbage, and it the whole thing started as a scam.

但我试图保持克制，告诉自己‘不’。

But I wanted to temper it and be like, no.

这绝不可能是真的。

There's no way this is true.

但事实就是如此运作的。

This is, like, actually how it works.

但质押是需要许可的。

But staking is permissioned.

而且我认为人们没有意识到，当前的质押者必须允许你加入。

And I don't think people realize that, is that the current stakers have to allow you in.

这太基础了，我实在不明白他们怎么能把这称为去中心化。

Like, which is so fundamental, like, I don't know how they could possibly call that decentralized.

就像如果我在自家地下室挖矿，我不需要别人来验证这些哈希值是否真实。

Like, if I am mining in my basement, I don't have to get somebody else to validate that those hashes are real.

你懂吗？

You know?

这可以说是整个全球无许可系统拼图中最核心的基础部分之一。

Like, that's one of the most, like, core fundamental pieces of the entire puzzle of this being a global permissionless system.

但不仅需要持有——好像是3.2万以太坊这样疯狂的数量才能质押，而且你还不能直接启动。

But not only do you have to have, like, was it 32,000 e some crazy amount of Ethereum to stake at all, but you can't just, like, turn it on.

你必须获得所有...而且你只能假设其他所有质押者都会同意。

You have to get all of and you just have to assume that all of the other stakers are going to be are gonna be like, yeah.

当然。

Sure.

在一个零和竞争环境中，他们会让你...他们会把你加入进来。

In a zero sum competitive environment that they're gonna turn you they're gonna add you to the mix.

他们会通过新增质押者来稀释自己的份额，而这永远不会出问题。

They're gonna dilute their portion of it by adding a new staker, and that's never gonna go sideways.

这绝对行不通。

That'll never work out.

不。

No.

那永远不会变质。

That'll never go bad.

我就是不敢相信。

I just I couldn't believe it.

我无法

I could not

相信。

believe it.

我还是想...我还是想认为我错了，但没人对此提出异议。

I still wanna I still wanna think that I'm wrong, but nobody's contested me on that.

这听起来像政治，像政治。

It's it sounds like politics, like like politics.

确实如此。

Very much so.