菲亚特通缩悖论：比特币与人工智能——投资者的理想组合 | BFC秀第26集

比特币在某种程度上与我们的业务以及我个人非常契合。

Bitcoin is kinda well aligned with our business and maybe myself.

我的意思是，我一直专注于长期思维，但如果你从四年、五年甚至十年的长远角度来看，它确实是一个非常好的资产。

I mean, I always focused on long term thinking, but it's really good asset if you think long term, if you think in four year terms, five year terms, or ten year terms.

长期来看。

Terms.

人工智能和整体商业都是非常通缩的，但我认为世界各国政府不会让我们失望，会大量印钞。

AI and businesses in general are super deflationary, but I think governments around the world will not disappoint us and will print a lot of money.

回到比特币，你看。

Going back to Bitcoin, look.

所以我认为我们仍然会面临通缩，因为——抱歉。

So I think I think we're still gonna have deflation because in I'm I'm sorry.

通胀。

Inflation.

因为我认为我们当前的货币体系无法在通缩环境中持续存在。

Because I don't think our system, current monetary system, can exist in a deflation environment.

欢迎来到《企业比特币》节目。

Welcome to the Bitcoin for Corporation show.

我是您的主持人皮埃尔·奥沙德，今天邀请到了罗兰·塔拉拉斯。

I'm your host, Pierre O'Shard, joined today by Roland Talalas.

你好吗，罗兰？

How are you, Roland?

嘿。

Hey.

很高兴见到你，皮埃尔。

Good to see Pierre.

谢谢邀请我。

Thanks for having me.

是的。

Yeah.

也很高兴见到你。

Very good to see you too.

我记得不久前在拉斯维加斯见过面。

I remember meeting not so long ago in Las Vegas.

我相信我们很快就会再回到那里。

I'm sure we'll be back there soon.

但你知道，你在比特币领域有着非常有趣的经历，而且我认为你对比特币国库公司有着非常棒的见解。

But, you know, you've got a really interesting journey in Bitcoin and a really, I think, great perspective on Bitcoin treasury companies.

我刚刚听了你在蒂姆·科茨曼会议上的发言，那真是一次非常出色的演讲。

I was just, listening to you on Tim Kotzman's conference, so that was a really, excellent presentation.

所以谢谢你今天来参加我们的节目。

So thanks for joining us today on the show.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

能来这里真的很棒，没错，上一次比特币会议见到你时感觉非常好，我相信在下一次会议上我们还会再见。

It it's great to be here, and, yeah, we definitely was good to see you in last Bitcoin conference, and I'm sure I'm gonna see you again in upcoming one.

是的。

Yeah.

那我们开始吧。

So let's get into this.

能参加这个节目真的很棒。

It's it's really good to to be in the show.

你是Giga的首席执行官。

So you're the CEO of Giga.

为了澄清一下，我们的观众可能知道，在比特币行业里，德克萨斯州有一家叫Giga的公司，做电力设备。

Now just to clarify for our audience, because in the Bitcoin industry, there is a company called Giga that does electrical equipment here in Texas, actually.

我认识那家公司的创始人，但那是完全不同的公司。

Know the founders, but it's a separate company entirely.

那是完全独立的公司，100%无关。

It's a separate company entirely, 100%.

而且没有关联，也没有隶属关系，我们不是同一家公司。

And not related, not affiliated, so we're not the same.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，Giga在你们的情况中涉及的是Windows和建筑，但远不止这些。

So now what Giga does, your case, is Windows and construction, but it's really more than that.

实际上要多得多，对吧？

It's a lot more than that, right?

你们现在已经不仅进入了AI软件领域，还在开发一家比特币储备公司。

Where you have now gone into not only AI software direction, but also in developing a Bitcoin treasury company.

你们作为一家私营公司，已经这样做了很长时间。

And you have been doing that for a long time now as a private company.

所以，我想邀请你来分享一下这种更私密的公司视角，谈谈比特币积累、你们如何看待融资，以及一家储备公司在拥有运营业务和自由现金流时所必须做出的决策。

So, wanted to have you on and kind of provide that interesting, like more private company perspective on Bitcoin accumulation and how you view financing and kind of the decisions that a treasury company has to make, especially when it comes to having an operating business with free cash flow.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以，也许让我从历史开始讲起，Pierre，我们是如何起步的，一路如何发展，以及我们现在是谁？

So so maybe let me start, Pierre, with a little bit, history, how we started and how we've been doing and who are we now?

我们确实是在2010年以一家窗户公司起步的，那时公司成立了。

Because we started as a window company, you are correct, in 2010, and that's when the company was formed.

但如今，我们已经发展得远不止于此。

But today, we evolved to being much more than that.

我会讲一讲我们业务发展的历程，然后谈谈我们什么时候开始涉足比特币。

You know, as we and I'll I'll tell a little bit story about our business journey and then I transitioned when we started at Bitcoin.

2010年我们起步时，曾涉足过住宅区的独栋房屋业务。

So it started in 2010, we dabbled in single family homes in the residential area.

但到了2015年左右，我们发现高性能建筑产品在商业、多户住宅和教育类项目中存在巨大机会。

But around 2015, we saw a lot of opportunity for these high performing building products in commercial, multi family educational applications.

于是我们把重心从住宅市场转向了多户住宅、商业办公楼和机构类项目。

And that's when we shifted our focus from the residential to multi family commercial office buildings, institutional type of projects.

自2015年以来，我们一直专注于建筑围护结构业务，也就是窗户和窗墙系统。

And since 2015, actually, building we've that side of the building envelope business, so that's windows, window walls.

但我们在2015年转型时，同时也开始打造一家科技公司。

But what we also did when we shipped it in 2015, started building a technology company.

这部分故事其实并不为人所知，因为我们是一家私营公司，没有广泛公开。但我们决定这么做，这也体现了我们的长期思维——我们开始为内部使用开发软件应用。

That side of the story is actually not well known because it's not well published because we're of course a private company, but what we have decided to do and that kind of maybe comes back to long term thinking is we started building software applications for internal use.

最初我只是需要一款估算软件，需要一些自动化工具。

Started with I need an estimating software, I need certain automations.

所以我们从小规模开始，只有几名开发人员，但现在我们的软件开发团队已接近70人，我们是一家通过技术创造软件、自动化和人工智能应用的科技公司。

So we started small with few developers but now we have close to 70 people in our software development team, and we create so we're through technology company who creates softwares, automations, AI applications.

现在我们正在引入机器人技术。

Now we're implementing robotics.

如果我要总结我们现在是一家怎样的公司，那就是我们正在打造一家科技公司，目标是颠覆建筑外围系统这一领域——也就是你的墙体、窗户。这是一个年规模达1150亿美元的行业，我们将通过技术、人工智能、自动化和机器人来实现这一目标。

So if I have to summarize who we are as a company now, so we're building technology company and our goal is to disrupt this building envelope, outside of your building, so your walls, your windows, it's about 115,000,000,000 annual industry and through technology, artificial intelligence, automation and robotics.

这就是我们如今真正演变成的样子，也正是推动我们实现快速增长的动力。

So that's who we actually evolved to be today and that's actually what propels us now for fast growth moving forward.

我们的目标非常高远，收入目标也非常高。

We have steep goals, steep revenue goals.

到2032年，我们希望实现十亿美元的营收。

By 2032, we want hit a billion dollars in revenue.

这是一个很高的目标，但我们认为它是可以实现的。

It's a steep goal, but we think it's doable.

所以整个团队都在努力实现这一目标。

So whole team works hard to achieve that.

我们的比特币之旅是从哪里开始的？

And where did our Bitcoin journey start?

我们公司的比特币之旅始于2021年，也就是在Strategy于2020年开启其旅程之后。

So our Bitcoin journey as a company started in 2021, so right after Strategy started their journey in 2020.

当然，作为一家私营公司，我们的事迹并不为人所知，也没有广泛宣传，除了我偶尔在一些播客和会议上发言。

We of course as a private company is not well known or publicized other than me speaking on some of the podcasts and conferences.

但在2021年，我们将比特币作为储备资产纳入了公司战略。

But in 2021, we adapted Bitcoin as a treasure asset.

我们最初以几百万美元起步，之后逐年通过现金流持续增持。

We started small with a few million dollars and then we start, of course, accumulating more through the years from our cash flows.

我们还需要补充一个重要的点：我们经营着一家成功、盈利且快速增长的业务，这使我们实现了正向现金流，因此我们可以将多余的资金投资于更好的资产，而不是让它们躺在支票账户里，或仅仅放在货币市场或国债中——而比特币正是一个表现优异得多的资产。

So we run maybe another important point to add, we run actually successful, profitable, and fast growing business, which allows us actually we are cash flow positive and it allows us to invest excess cash, not keep them in the checking account or maybe some money markets or T bills, but a much better performing asset, which is Bitcoin.

自2021年以来，我们一直成功地这样做。

That's what we've been doing successfully since 2021.

到目前为止，我们累计持有——据官方报告是1213万美元，但最近几天我们又增加了一些，现在大约是1230万美元左右。

To date, we've accumulated, I think officially we're reporting $12.13, but last couple of days we added a few more, so now it's maybe $12.30 or something like that.

是的。

Yeah.

你个人是怎么接触到比特币的？公司在决策采纳这一策略时的过程是怎样的？

How did you personally come across Bitcoin, what was the decision making process like at the corporate level to embrace this strategy?

这是个非常好的问题。

It's a really good question.

我想我和大家一样，最初是持怀疑态度的。

So I think I started like all of us in a deniers position.

我最早听到比特币时，我们每个人都认识某个朋友或熟人说：‘有个新东西叫比特币，你应该买一些。’

So first I heard it early on, all of us had a friend or someone we knew who said, Here's this new thing, Bitcoin, you should get some.

但那时我的思想还没准备好，因为那实在太早了。

But at that time, my mind was not ready and it was super early.

当时比特币的价格大概是100美元一枚，所以我没有购买。

Bitcoin was maybe $100 a coin, so I didn't buy any.

是一群朋友在聊天，其中一位IT人员说：看吧，这将是下一个最棒的东西。

And it was a group of friends who were chatting and this one IT guy was saying, Look, it's going be the next best thing.

但那时我也没有购买任何东西。

But at that time, I did not buy any.

所以，我当时在心理上还没有准备好，也没有做足够的研究。

So I was, again, mentally not traded, didn't do enough research.

实际上，当比特币上涨、加密行业兴起时，我开始涉足各种不同的加密货币。

Actually, course, when Bitcoin grew, crypto industry grew, so I dabbled in being in different crypto coins.

这段旅程很长。

So the journey was long.

我想说，花了四五年时间，我才最终明白，唯一真正的数字资产、数字黄金，就是比特币。

I would say four or five year journey until I finally figured out that it's only one true digital asset, digital gold, which is Bitcoin.

于是我彻底从脑海中剔除了所有其他加密货币——你可以称它们为空气币，转而专注于比特币。

So I stopped I just crossed out all the crypto coins, you can call them shitcoins, from my mind and focused on the Bitcoin.

那大概是在2016到2017年左右，我个人开始买入，2020年左右我更加投入，2021年又买了一些，之后在暴跌后继续买入，公司也逐步跟进。

And that was about probably twenty sixteen-seventeen personally so personally I started buying twenty sixteen-seventeen I leaned in more in around 2020 bought a little bit twenty twenty one And then bought after the crash, and then we adapted as a company.

我记得当时听Sailor讲话，那大概是2022年之后，他说：抵押你的房子，卖掉你的肾，去买比特币。

I was listening to Sailor, I remember when Sailor was preaching and it probably was after 2022, what he was saying, Mortgage your house, sell your kidney, and buy your Bitcoin.

所以我没有卖肾，但确实抵押了房子，在比特币价格大约4万美元时买入了，回头看，这无疑是一笔绝佳的投资。

So I didn't sell my kidney, but I did end up mortgaging a house and bought some Bitcoin at $40,000 or something like that which was of course a great investment looking back.

这就是我的整个历程。

So that was the journey.

至于从公司角度如何回答这个问题，我认为我们很幸运，公司完全由我掌控，董事会很小，本质上由我主导。

And to answer the question how it was from a company's perspective, so I think we are in a fortunate situation that company is fully controlled by myself so the board is small, essentially it's under my control.

因此，当我转变心态，相信比特币是应该长期持有在资产负债表上的资产时，这个决定很容易做出，因为我直接决定开始为公司资产负债表积累比特币。

So as I adapted mentality and believe that Bitcoin is the asset, that's the long term asset to be held on the balance sheet and that was easy because I just made the decision to start accumulating on the company's balance sheet.

我认为比特币与我们的业务以及我个人的目标高度契合。

And I think maybe another Bitcoin is well aligned with our business and maybe myself.

我始终专注于长期思维，我们开始投资软件开发、技术，甚至我们的项目周期。

I always focused on long term thinking and we started investing, let's say, in software development, technology, or even our project cycles.

很长。

Are long.

比如说，从打招呼到一个建筑开发商最终从项目中获得收入，通常需要两到三年的销售周期。

Saying hello, let's say a few people would be a building developer, from saying hello to receiving revenue on the project you do, it's usually two to three year sales cycle.

所以销售周期很长，我们需要有长期思维。

So sales cycles are long, so we need to think long term.

我认为比特币也是如此，因为我们不是上市公司，不需要被季度报告或年度报告所束缚，也没有必须在每个季度都表现良好的压力，我们可以进行长期投资和思考。

And I think with Bitcoin, it's similar because we're not forced, we're not public companies, so we're not forced tied to this quarterly reportings, annual reportings, we don't have the demand to perform on a quarterly basis, we can invest and think long term.

我认为比特币与此非常契合。

And I think Bitcoin aligns that well.

它不是季度配置的最佳资产，但如果你以四年、五年或十年的视角来看，它是一个非常好的资产。

It's not the best asset for the quarterly allocation, but it's a really good asset if you think long term, if you think in four year terms, five year terms, or ten year terms.

是的。

Yeah.

这就是整个历程，现在我们只是持续积累。

So that was the journey, and now we just keep keep stacking.

是的。

Yeah.

那么，你一直采用稳定的美元成本平均法吗？还是试图择时买卖？

And so have you always had kind of a a steady dollar cost averaging approach, or do you try to time the market?

不太择时。

Not so much timing.

不。

No.

我们通常在有现金时买入。

We we usually buy when we have cash.

当然，当比特币像现在这样打折时，我更喜欢。

Of course, I like it better when Bitcoin is on sale like now.

你知道的。

You know?

因为我有一种积极的心态，因为当你持有比特币时，无论涨跌你都能感到开心。

Because I have this positive mindset because when you're Bitcoin, you you're actually happy on both sides of the story.

如果价格下跌，我就说：看，现在在打折。

If it goes down, just saying, Look, it's on sale.

这让我有能力买入更多。

It allows me the ability to buy more.

然后当价格上涨时，你就说：好吧，我手上这些比特币都产生了未实现的收益。

And then it goes up, you just say, Okay, I have all these unrealized gains on the Bitcoin.

所以，如果你从长期来看，两边都是好事，对吧？

So if you think long term, think both sides of the coin are good, right?

无论你是以更低的价格买入比特币，还是仅仅看着未实现的收益。

Even if you're buying cheaper Bitcoin or when you just look at the unrealized gains.

那么，在推动比特币机构采用的过程中，处理托管和会计等后勤工作感觉如何？

And then how has it been to kind of do all the custody and the accounting and all of that part of the logistics for institutional adoption of Bitcoin?

这真是个好问题。

So this is really a good question.

实际上，我们在会计和托管方面都没什么问题，但银行那边遇到了一些挑战。

Actually, we had some challenges, not with accounting, not with custody, but with banks.

我希望随着美国通过相关法律，这种情况会有所改变，因为过去老银行看到资产负债表上的比特币时，

And I'm hoping that will change with the laws being passed in The US because in the past years old banks would look at Bitcoin on their balance sheet.

他们会说，好的，给我看看你有什么资产。

They would say, okay, show me what you have.

比如说，如果你想要一条信贷额度，

Let's say you want line of credit.

当我们审视你的业务并问：这些资产是什么？

So if we look at your business and ask, okay, what are these assets?

哦，是比特币。

Oh, Bitcoin.

于是他们会把比特币的价值定为零。

So they would value Bitcoin at zero.

所以当然，如果你的资产负债表上有大量比特币，而你却将其价值定为零，这会让你的资产负债表看起来没有实际那么强劲。

So of course, and if you have large amount on your balance sheet, that would of course and you value that at zero, that would look at your balance sheet not as strong as it actually is.

甚至可以说，比特币是流动性很强的资产。

Even, you know, Bitcoin is liquid.

你可以明天就把它卖了。

You can sell it tomorrow.

但你们传统的银行会把这类资产估值，不是所有银行都这样，但我们接触过的那些，都不会给这些资产估值。

But your standard banks would would value that assets, you know, maybe not all, but those we dealt with, they would not value assets.

他们会把资产价值记为零，然后只看你其他的资产。

They would write it down to zero and then look at everything else what you have as an asset.

所以，这导致我们无法使用很多银行产品，也许这反而更好。

So so that's, you know, we so that not allowed us to use a lot of banking products, which maybe for the better.

所以我们知道，由于这个原因，信贷额度实际上被关闭了。

So we know the lines of credits actually got shut down because of that.

从会计角度来看，这并不复杂，因为如果你只是买入并持有，不进行交易的话。

So we just and from accounting perspective, it's not that complex because if you just buy and hold, you know, you're not trading.

你不需要用很多去中心化金融产品，这并不复杂。

You don't use a lot of DeFi is not that complicated.

在托管方面，我们最初使用冷存储，后来发展为多重签名冷存储，现在我们正在逐步实施多重签名托管用于部分资金，以及与托管机构合作的机构级托管。

And on the custody side, so we we started with cold storage when we developed into multistake cold storage, and now we're on the journey to implement both some multistake custody for certain amounts and institutional custody with custodians.

是的。

Yeah.

这很有道理。

So that makes a lot of sense.

当你考虑它在资产负债表上的位置时，我知道我们看到一些 treasury 公司进行衍生品交易，无论是对冲还是通过出售备兑看涨期权从其比特币持仓中产生现金流。

And then when you think about kind of its position on your balance sheet, have you also I know we've seen some treasury companies engage in derivatives trades, either to hedge or to generate cash flow from their Bitcoin holdings, selling covered calls.

你对这类活动的看法如何？它们有吸引力还是缺乏吸引力？

What's kind of your view on on those kinds of activities and and their appeal or lack thereof?

我认为这些确实是合法的活动，我知道一些公司已经非常成功地做了。

I think we definitely legitimate activities, and I know some of them some of the companies done it very successfully.

我们并没有排除未来可能走这条路，随着我们逐步发展，我们可能在今年或明年某个时候，建立公司投资部门的这一部分。

We we're not crossing out that from our potential journey in the future as we build out, you know, we're thinking probably in sometime this year or next year, build out that side of the of the of the investment arm in the company.

所以我认为，这是一种合法的方式，用以产生额外收入，或者像你说的，进行对冲。

So I think it's definitely legitimate way of of generate additional income or, like you said, hedge.

我们目前并没有做多少对冲。

We don't do currently much of it of the hedging.

所以，再次强调，我们主要还是买入并持有。

So, again, most mostly, we buy and hold.

我们仍然在资产负债表上保留了一定数量的现金，因为运营所需无法用比特币支付供应商。

We do still hold, you know, some amount of cash on the balance sheet because for operations, you cannot because you still cannot pay vendors in Bitcoin.

也许你可以说服某人用比特币发工资。

Maybe you could convince someone with salaries in Bitcoin.

所以美元仍然是我们资产负债表上的主要资产，我们仍然持有一定数额的美元。

So dollar is still our it still sits on our balance sheet, and a certain amount of dollars we still hold.

我认为像Strategy这样的公司也采取了类似的多年美元储备策略。

And I think strategy kind of did the same with their multi year dollar reserves.

是的，我们实际上对将来探索对冲和收益生成的机会持开放态度。

Yeah, I think we're open actually to explore opportunities in hedging and income generation in the future.

是的，这可能有点私人化，但你是如何决定是将公司出售给私募股权公司，套现后为自己购买比特币，还是继续运营公司并用现金流逐步积累比特币的呢？

Yeah, so maybe this is a bit of a personal question, but kind of what was your decision making process on whether to sell the company to a private equity firm or something like that and take all the cash and and buy Bitcoin for yourself versus continuing to operate the company and accumulating Bitcoin at the cash flows?

这其实是个非常好的问题。

That's a really good question, actually.

你知道，我不能说我没有谈过这个。

You know, I cannot say that I didn't talk about that.

我谈过。

I did.

但你知道，首先，我热爱我所做的事情，而且我认为我们还能做得更多。

But but, you know, first of all, I love what I do, and I think we can do so much more.

我只是不想像有些人那样，工作若干年后就卖掉公司然后退休，因为你知道，度假如果太多，也会变成一种折磨。

And I just don't wanna like, my goal was never to to work some amount of years and to to sell and then retire, because, you know, vacation can become a jab if you do it too much.

对吧？

Right?

你能去多少地方旅行？能躺在沙滩上多久？

Like, how much travel and how much laying on the beach can you do?

所以对我来说，关键是这样。

So so I think for me, it's look.

我喜欢我所做的事情。

I like what I do.

我喜欢工作。

I like working.

我喜欢，你知道的，执行任务。

I like, you know, executing.

我喜欢解决客户的问题，开发新产品，钻研技术。

I like solving clients' problems, developing new products, you know, working on the technology.

当然，在商业中，成功通常是用指标来衡量的。

And then of course in business, success is usually measured.

你的业务盈利吗？

Is your business profitable?

在这种情况下，我们足够幸运。

And in this case, we've been fortunate enough.

我们拥有一支出色的团队，多年来建立了卓越的文化。

What we have an amazing team and we built through the years, amazing culture.

因此，这让我们能够，你知道的，就像巴菲特曾经说过的，每天上班时像唱歌或跳舞一样开心。

So that allows us you know, like, I think Buffett used to say, you know, what is like coming to work every day singing or dancing or something like that.

所以，当你有这样一份工作时，我觉得自己很幸运，而且我每天还在继续工作。

So, you know, when you have job like that, it's I think I'm in a fortunate position to and I still work every day.

所以我周一到周五都有安排，周末则视情况而定。

So I have a schedule Monday through Friday, weekends as needed, of course.

作为企业主，总有一些事情需要处理，但不是为了买进卖出。

As a business owner, are always there to something, but not to buy and sell again.

如果我们持续建设而非出售，我认为我们可以打造一家规模大得多的公司，因为我们有愿景，而到2032年实现十亿美元营收只是个起点。

Like I think we can build way bigger company if we continue building, not selling because we have a vision and you know this this billion dollar revenue by 2032 that's just only a stepping stone.

我认为从收入角度看，我们可以打造更大规模的企业，我们的目标还包括购买更多比特币。

I think we can build much much bigger business from revenue perspective and our goal is also buy more Bitcoin.

所以，我们并不是打算出售，但也许在公司足够大、适合进入这类市场时，我们会融资或上市，我认为那时我们将有更多机会同时实现：积累更多比特币、扩大业务规模，以及为团队创造更多机会，毕竟我们现在公司已有近700人。

So we're not you know I think we're not gonna sell but we might raise money, we might become public company at some point once we're big enough probably for that type of market, and I think we will have more opportunity to do both, accumulate more Bitcoin, grow bigger business, and, you know, create more opportunities for the team too, you know, because now we have close to 700 people in the company.

我们有这么多人，许多家庭都依赖着我们，我也认识他们很久了，也许不是每个人都熟识，但我对团队非常了解，我们已经并肩工作了很长时间。

So we have a lot of people, a lot of families, you know, rely on us, and and I have also seen I I knew them know them for a long time, maybe not all of them personally, but I know the team well and we've been working as a team for a long time.

这就像我的孩子一样。

It's kind of my baby.

这是我的孩子，我从2010年开始的，已经十五年了，所以不容易放手。

It's my I started in 2010, this has been fifteen years, so it's not that easy to let it go.

但还有一点，如果我发现我在这份工作上失败了，我可能会放手。

But one other thing aspect, I would let it go if I start seeing that I'm failing at my job.

那样的话，我大概就会放下了。

So then I probably would let go.

是的。

Yeah.

雇一个比你更优秀的人。

Hire somebody who's better than yourself.

没错。

That's right.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

从这一点来看，当我们回顾策略公司的历史时，我猜测他们80%到90%的比特币来自融资活动，而不是经营性现金流。

So from there, you know, when we look at strategy's history, I would guess that 80 to 90% of their Bitcoin are from financing activities rather than from operating cash flow.

而未来，融资规模远超经营性现金流，我们已经看到像Strive这样的纯比特币公司——我在此作个完全披露，我担任其董事会成员——当你们观察这个领域时，公司们正在发行优先股、永久优先股、可转换票据，所有这些工具都是为了加速比特币的积累。

And going forward, it's only, you know, the financing is far greater than the operating cash flow, and we've seen, you know, pure play companies like Strive, which I'm on the board of, just full disclosure, you know, when you look at that world where companies are issuing preferreds, perpetual preferreds, convertible notes, all of these instruments where it's, you know, a way to accelerate the Bitcoin stacking.

你如何看待这些融资方式在你经营性现金流策略中的作用？

How do you view those as part of your kind of strategy with regards to the operating cash flow?

我认为从长远来看，通过创新融资和优先股来积累比特币是更优越的模式。

So I think long term that would be more superior model to accumulate Bitcoin via creative financing and with preferreds.

但正如市场可能向我们展示的那样，不知道有多少公司能长期做到这一点。

But as probably market shows us, who knows how many companies will be able to do it long term.

所以我们知道，策略公司目前确实表现非常出色。

So we know, you know, strategy can and may do very well.

Stripe也是如此。

Stripe does.

看起来，你们的SATA产品非常成功。

Looks like, you know, your SATA product is very successful.

其他一些公司看起来也取得了一些进展，比如MetaPlanet。

Some other ones looks like have some traction, you know, like MetaPlanet.

但我们也认为，在这种环境下，许多公司正面临困境，尤其是当你在MNAF下交易且难以融资时。

But we also I think it's case to be made that many struggle in this environment, especially, right, when when you're you're trading under MNAF and it's hard to raise money.

在这种情况下该怎么办？

And what do do in these cases?

所以我认为对我们来说，更像是一种双引擎方法，一方面依靠运营现金流，未来可能成为上市公司并推出一些优先产品。

So I think for us, I'm seeing it's more like a dual dual engine approach, you know, one operating cash and potentially in the future becoming public company and launching some preferred products.

但我也认为，我们不应当仅仅为了上市而上市，尤其是当公司的估值没有达到我认为它应有的水平时——因为我看到了未来，看到了我们正在走的路，而有时你的估值却只基于过去的业绩。

But I think we I also don't wanna become public company just for sake of becoming public and especially if the company is not valued at the certain value, what I think it should be valued because I see the future, I see the journey where we're going, and sometimes you you you get valued at your past performance.

你的收入和EBITDA倍数是多少？

What's your revenue and EBITDA multiple?

对吧？

Right?

我认为对我们而言，因为我们构建了所有这些技术、基础设施，并将其与现代二十一世纪的公司——包含所有自动化和应用程序——联系起来，所以我们带给市场的，是一种近乎汽车工业那样的建造行业模式。

I think for us, because we built all this technology, we built infrastructure, because we're tying it back into this modern twenty first century company, with all the automation and application, I think we can What we're bringing to the market is this almost car like type of approach to the building industry.

你知道的吧？

You know?

所以也许我可以谈谈这一点，因为建筑行业仍然非常分散，大部分工作都在现场完成，常常在寒冷、雨天或恶劣环境中进行。

So maybe I can talk a little bit about that because construction industry is still very fragmented, mostly done on-site, mostly done in the cold, in rain, in elements.

你需要处理大量的工种。

You have to deal with a lot of trades.

你需要处理大量的交接环节。

You have to deal with a lot of handoffs.

你会遇到延误。

You have delays.

你会遇到产品性能不佳的问题。

You have products not performing.

你需要与不同的各方打交道。

You need to deal with different parties.

所以这中间有太多问题需要解决。

So it's just it's a lot of problems to be solved.

我认为Giga以及Giga旗下所有公司实际上是一个由多家公司组成的集团。

And I think what Giga does and all the all the companies under Giga, it's actually a group of companies under Giga.

Giga只是我们的母公司。

Giga is our just umbrella company.

我们通过自主研发技术、软件和AI应用来解决这个问题。

We are solving this problem by having in house the technology, the software, the design with AI application.

我们实现了与制造设备的集成，并结合了机器人和自动化技术。

We have integration with our manufacturing machinery, and then we have with with robotics and automation.

接下来，你知道，这些公司下一步会走向数字孪生。

And and and the next one, you know, what's next for for the companies will be digital twin.

你如何将你的公司带到数字世界和网络空间中？

How do you bring your company to the digital to the cyberspace?

这就是Palantir所做的。

That's what Palantir does.

你知道，他们与政府和大型医院网络合作。

You know, they work with governments and big hospital chains.

所以像Palantir的CanSys这样的公司，实际上你自己也可以在内部实现。

So but Palantir's CanSys, for example, as a, you know, as a company, they actually you you can implement that yourself in your end.

实体。

Entity.

有时候，作为一家公司，Palantir对我们来说可能太昂贵了。

Sometimes Palantir might be too expensive to us as a company.

但那些原则呢？要成为网络空间中的数字化公司，你需要什么？

But but the principles, what do you need to become a digital company in cyberspace?

你需要组织良好的数据。

You need well organized data.

所以是干净、结构清晰的数据。

So it's clean, well organized data.

你需要本体，需要逻辑链条。

You need this ontology, need logical chains.

你的数据需要被正确地相互连接。

You know, your data need to be properly interconnected.

你知道，一旦你有了这些，并且所有流程都实现了自动化，

You know, once you have that, you know, and you have all the applications where your processes are automated.

一旦你有了这些，你当然就可以构建各种商业智能系统，并释放AI代理。

Once you have that, you can build, of course, you know, then all kinda business intelligence, and you can then release AI agents.

你可以，你知道的，然后去协调IT引擎。

You can you can, you know, then you can orchestrate the IT engines.

但首先，我认为，你需要先建立干净、有序的数据。

But but you first you need to you need to build, in my opinion, this first well clean, well organized data.

因为如果你没有这些，你的代理就会失控，处理那些不干净的数据，就是典型的垃圾进、垃圾出的情况。

Because if you don't have that, your agents are just gonna run wild and, you know, working on the non clean data, you know, like shit in, shit out type of situation.

对吧？

Right?

因为如果你的数据不准确、不干净，你的AI代理就只能在这些脏数据上工作。

Because if your data is not accurate, not clean, your AI agent's just gonna work on that unclean data.

所以，这也是我们公司正在做的事情。

So so that's what we're doing also as a company.

对吧？

Right?

比如在赛博空间中构建这种数字孪生体。

Like, building this digital digital twin in the cyberspace.

然后把它带回现实，我忘了你刚才的问题，因为我有点跑题了，但我认为是的。

And bringing it back home, and I forgot your question because I think I went in detention to bit, but I think yeah.

这就是我们如何颠覆建筑围护结构行业的方式。

So that's that's what how we're disrupting a building building envelope industry.

我们最初是一家窗户公司，而现在我们更像一家技术和自动化、机器人公司，从2010年到2026年，完全是两家不同的公司。

So what we started as a window company and where we're at is more like a technology automation and robotics companies, two different companies, 2010 and 2026.

我认为在未来几年里，我们会变成一家截然不同的公司。

And I think in in next few years, we'll be quite a bit different company.

再次强调，我们会开发大量AI代理、机器人，以及遍布美国和立陶宛的多种地理位置因素。

Again, build a lot of AI agents, robotics, multifactors and other location factors throughout probably US and Lithuania.

在机器人方面，这些是更偏向工厂应用的机器人，还是你们感兴趣的是类人机器人？

And now on the robotics side, is this kind of more factory oriented robotics, or is this like humanoid robotics that that you're interested in?

人形机器人还没到那一步。

Humanoid's not yet.

但我知道它迟早会来的。

I but I know it's coming.

但目前来看，更多是工厂类型的机器人，你可以从汽车制造机器人这个角度来理解。

But but for now, it's more your factory, type of robotics, more like a car manufacturing robotics, you might think from that perspective.

因为一旦你采用模块化或单元化方式，就是在生产一种小型产品。

Because once you go panelized or unitized, that's building a little product.

我们实际上在打造的是墙体系统。

Essentially, what we're building, it's wall systems.

这是一种模块化墙体系统，完全装配好，包含保温层、钢龙骨、外墙饰面，比如铝材、纤维水泥板，还有仿砖效果，窗户也已安装完毕，打包好，准时运送到现场。

It's a panelized wall systems with fully finished with your insulation, your steel studs, your exterior cladding, you know, aluminum, fiber cement, you name it, with a brick brick look with windows installed and packaged, finished, delivered on-site, on time as needed.

所以如果你是开发商，你只需要雇一个安装工，在你的楼板和天花板上安装特殊的卡扣即可。

So if you are developer, all you need to do, you know, you hire an installer, install install special clips on your slabs, so floors and ceilings.

对吧？

Right?

你只需要拿一块板子，挂上去，然后它们通过夹子彼此连接，这是一种标准化的系统。

You just and then and then you take a panel, you hang it, and then it's a kinda legal type of system, clips clips to each other.

然后你继续安装下一块板子，再下一块板子。

And then you just do it to the next panel, next next panel.

你可以快速地将整栋建筑包裹起来，窗户和外立面都已安装完毕，速度极快。

And you can wrap the building, so fully finished with windows installed, with cladding installed super fast.

你可以做到每周完成一层楼。

You can go a week floor per week.

所以如果你有一栋十层的建筑，你可以在十周内完成外墙，整个工程就完成了。

So if you have a 10 story building, you can finish it from exterior in ten weeks, and it's done.

然后你可以开始内部施工，比如电路和管道。

And then you can work on the inside, you know, electrical, your plumbing.

这对开发商来说意味着速度大幅提升，融资成本下降，索赔和各种缺陷也大幅减少，因为现在产品是工厂制造的，我们有自己的实验室持续测试产品，准时发货，所以我不用操心了——因为我们只对接一个供应商，我们一直以准时、完整交付产品为傲。

So what it does to developers, now you have you're moving much faster, your financing costs going down, your claims and all kind of deficiencies goes down because now it's you know it's a factory made you know we have internal labs you know we're always testing products it's shipped on time so I have headaches you know because now we're dealing only with one party and and we've been you know priding ourselves to delivering products on time and in full.

是的。

Yeah.

那为什么你不这么做呢？

And then it's why wouldn't you do it?

现在我在想，面板之间的缝隙是怎么填充的？

Now my mind goes to what fills the gaps between the panels?

你们怎么确保它们完全精准地贴合？

How do you get it to be exactly fitted perfectly?

面板之间设计有公差。

So between the panels, there are tolerances designed.

你说得对。

You're right.

它本来就不需要完美。

It's meant not to be perfect.

它的设计是为了适应差异，比如如果楼板不平，有点弯曲，它就能适应这种弯曲。

It's meant to accommodate different say if your slab is not straight, it's a little bit curved, It's meant to come accommodate the curvature.

如果存在其他一些偏差，在一定程度内，比如一英寸左右，你大概都能容纳进去。

If you have some some other discrepancy so up to certain level, you know, you can probably accommodate like a inch in there.

但除此之外，你的建筑当然需要以不同的方式来应对这个问题。

But but beyond that, of course, your your your building needs to so you need to address it by different means.

但确实，正如你所知，建筑中不存在完美。

But, yeah, there is no perfect in construction as you know.

你总是要应对公差，一直都是这样。

It's like you always deal with tolerances always.

这就是现实世界。

It's the real world.

没错。

That's right.

那么，你怎么看待垂直整合呢？比如你接管项目的更多部分，并将这些原则应用到外壳之外，因为你已经超越了窗户的范畴？

Now how do you think about like vertical integration to where you take over more of the project and apply these same principles beyond the shell because you've already gone, you know, beyond the window?

你是否打算在这个方向上更进一步，还是说这是一个合适的边界点？

Do you see going further in that direction, or is this a logical area to kind of draw a boundary?

我认为有一些机会。

I think there are some opportunities.

我不认为我们会进入开发领域，但在其他一些领域，我们可以为开发商提供一站式服务。

I don't think we'll go into development, but there are opportunities in some other areas where we could provide this one stop shop for for the developers.

尤其是那些需要设计协调和执行的领域，因为本质上，我们在设计、产品开发、制造和交付方面的工作非常复杂。

And especially what requires design coordination and execution because, essentially, what we do in design so product development, design, manufacturing, and delivery, like building a little bit very complex.

这很复杂。

It's it's complex.

你需要进行大量的测试，确保符合规范。

It's it's it's you need to do a lot of testing, code compliance.

这是一个复杂的产品。

It's a complex product.

它不能在许多年里出现渗漏，你知道的。

It need not to leak, you know, for for many, many years.

对吧？

Right?

它必须性能良好。

It needs to perform.

所以我认为有一些领域值得深入，主要与厨房以及一些需要设计、制造和交付的储物单元有关。

So there are some some areas I think for going inside, mostly to do probably with with kitchens, with some maybe storage units where it requires design, you know, manufacturing and delivery.

但这些并不在我们的短期路线图上。

But but these are not not on our short term road map.

我认为建筑围护结构行业规模非常大。

I think the building envelope industry is so so large.

你知道，这个行业每年的规模大约是1150亿美元。

You know, it's 100 like, around a $115,000,000,000 annually.

所以它非常庞大。

So it's very large.

这包括从办公楼到数据中心、医院、学校的所有领域吗？

And does that include everything from office buildings to data centers to hospitals, schools?

是的。

Yeah.

所以这是一个粗略的估算。

So it's a rough estimate.

它可能大一点，也可能小一点，但这是一个大致的估计。

It could be a bit bigger, it could be a bit smaller, but it's probably a rough estimate.

我认为它涵盖了所有这些领域。

I think it does include it all.

但实际上，我们服务了大量这些细分市场。

But we serve actually a lot of these niches.

我们并不直接服务数据中心，比如比特币挖矿这类应用，因为它们的用途略有不同，但我们确实服务了大量建筑，包括改造项目、学生公寓、医疗设施和多户住宅。

We don't serve data centers per se, let's say for Bitcoin mining because it's a little bit different application, but we do serve a lot of buildings including retrofit applications and student housing and health care and multifamily.

多户住宅实际上是我们所服务行业中最大的细分市场。

Multifamily is actually our biggest biggest segment in the industry which we serve.

我们在奥斯汀亲眼见证了这一领域的巨大增长。

We've seen a huge growth of that here in Austin, I I've personally seen.

那么，从横向发展的角度来看，你们有计划进入住宅市场吗？还是觉得这个市场太小了？

Now then, further into kind of the horizontal approach, do you have plans to go into residential or is that just too small?

不，住宅市场其实并不小，但它是一个不同的市场，有不同的销售模式，需要不同的配置。

No, residential actually is not small, but that's a different market, different sale, which requires different setup.

所以，再次强调，我并没有把住宅市场从未来的规划中完全排除，但我认为我们真正擅长的是这种多功能商业应用，因为这类项目难度更大。

So, again, I'm not crossing out residential from from the future, but I think really good at this multifamily commercial type of application where things get hard.

你知道，当项目进度受到开发商的严格约束时，你不能延误工期，不能延迟交付，你必须遵守严格的规范要求，还要进行大量的现场测试，你不仅要承诺能通过验收，更要真正在现场通过检验。

Know, when timelines you're being held accountable by developer, then you cannot slip on timelines, cannot slip on delivery, you have this hard code you know, hard requirements for code compliance, you have a lot of on-site testing and and, you know, you're being held accountable to that to your products to not just say you're gonna pass, but actually pass on the job sites.

所以我认为我们未来某天可能会进入住宅市场，但目前来看，多功能商业和教育类应用的机会实在太大了，我们不应该分散精力。

So I think we might go at some time in the future, but but I think opportunity again is too big right now for us to go after in this multifamily commercial type of educational applications.

我们不想分心，因为每个人每天只有这么多时间，团队每天也只有这么多工时，所以我们必须专注。

We don't want to get distracted because you have just so many hours in a day, your team has just so many hours in a day, so we need to focus.

我认为在未来可预见的这段时间里，这都将是我们在这个市场上的核心重点。

And I think that's going to be our focus for the foreseeable future in this market.

你提到你们一直在扩充软件工程团队，以应对你们正在开发的更高级的功能和技术。

And you mentioned you've been building up the software engineering team to tackle the more advanced functionalities, technologies that you're developing.

你之前有软件方面的背景吗？还是说这是随着需求自然发展出来的？

You know, did you have a background in software or is this something that has just emerged as a necessity?

这是个好问题。

That's a good question.

不，我不是软件开发者，但我接受过工程学教育。

No, I'm not a software developer, but I'm an engineer by education.

所以我拥有土木工程学位。

So have a civil engineering degree.

这就是我的教育背景。

So that's my education.

软件和工程有点相似，对吧？

Software is similar, a little bit similar like engineering, right?

因为它是逻辑性的，如果是这样，那么就是那样，所以我从未真正系统地自学过软件开发，但我理解其核心原理。

Because it's a logical, if this, then that type of so so it's it's I never end up, you know, teaching myself how to how to learning how to develop the software development, but they do understand the main principles.

原理。

Principles.

我确实理解系统是如何运作的，而且我们经常和团队讨论如何思考问题，因为不能陷在细节里。

I I do do understand, understand, you you know, know, how how a system works, and I can we you know, a lot of times, have these discussions with a team, you know, how to think about things because you can not how not to get in the weeds.

所以我认为我对软件开发有足够的高层级理解，知道事情应该如何设计、如何互联，以及系统是如何运作的。

So I think I have enough understanding about software development at the high level, you know, how things should be, how things should interconnect, you know, how systems work.

所以，这大概就是我对软件开发的回答。

So that's that would be probably my answer about the software development.

我们为什么会开始做软件开发呢？

Why did we started in software development?

我认为，2014到2015年左右是个关键节点，那时我们开始雇用一个人来做软件开发。

So I think it was pivotal moment around twenty fourteen-fifteen when we started doing software development with one person.

那是我们的第一个员工。

That's our first hire.

我们说，好吧，我们就这么干了。

We said, okay, we're going to do this.

我们选择这条路的原因，再次强调，这是出于长期考虑，因为这条路看似简单，就是想直接找个现成的解决方案。

And the reason we chose that path, again, think this was long term thinking because it was easy path, just tried to get something off the shelf.

我想我们当时在考虑某种估算软件。

And I think we're looking at the point some type of estimating software.

我们一直说，花了大约三个月的时间评估哪个软件更适合我们。

Always said, you know, and we spent like three months assessing which one would be good for us.

没有一个是完美的，我很早就意识到，你买不到完美的软件。

None of them were perfect, and I think I came in to this realization early on that there's no perfect software you can buy.

实际上，我们现在确实使用一些外部软件，但在业务的关键领域，我们都是自己开发的。

Do actually, we do use some outside softwares now, but for the key areas of the business, we build it ourselves.

至于产品开发、报价、自动化和机器人技术，以及现在部署AI代理，我们都保持在内部完成。

Actually, far as the product development, the quoting, the automation and robotics, now deploying AI agents, we keep that in house.

所以在这十年里，我们实际上构建了一整套ERP系统。

So now in this ten years actually, built the whole suite of ERP system actually.

现在我们所有的东西都是内部开发的。

Now we do it's all in house built.

好处是，是的，你需要一个更大的团队。

The beauty, yes, you need a bigger team.

是的，维护成本更高，但你非常快速和灵活。

Yes, it's more expensive to maintain, but you're so fast and flexible.

因为如果你想到某个想要的功能，你不必等两年，然后恳求你的软件供应商为你实现。

Because if you just think of some functionality you want, you don't have to wait two years and beg your software provider to do it for you.