#232 - 罗伊斯·格雷西 - 柔术与综合格斗传奇

是的

Yep.

所以这是‘是的’的新说法。

So that's the newer version of Yes.

游骑兵入门培训项目。

Ranger indoctrination program.

是的

Yep.

他现在进行到哪一步了？

Where is he in that?

他刚起步吗？

He's just starting?

他已经进行一个月的RASP了。

He's a month into that that the RASP.

是的

Yes.

哦，太酷了。

Oh, very cool.

一个月后，他又接受了两个月的训练，然后去上空降学校。

A month in he got two months on that, and then he goes to airborne school.

是的。

Yep.

一旦他从这两项训练毕业，就会被刺穿。

And once he graduate from both, he gets stabbed.

是的。

Yep.

什么

What

他在想什么

what is he thinking

关于他想参军的事？

about him wanting to join the military?

哦，我喜欢这个。

Oh, I love it.

是的。

Yeah.

我也喜欢。

I love it.

一点也不害怕。

Not scared at all.

不。

No.

我为他感到骄傲。

I'm proud of him.

好。

Good.

好。

Good.

天啊，我跟他说了，如果你去什么地方，我就跟你一起去。

Man, it's a I told him, if you go somewhere, I'm going with you.

是的。

Yeah.

别把我落下，儿子。

Don't leave me behind, son.

好吧，告诉我你要去哪儿。

Well Tell me where you're gonna go.

我要去。

I'm gonna go.

你要去阿富汗？

You go to Afghanistan?

我要去找一所学校，这样我就能在阿富汗教书了。

I'm going I'm gonna find out a school so I can teach in Afghanistan.

我刚好会待在同一个镇上。

I'll happen to be in the same town

和你一起。

with you.

好的。

Okay.

这一点很重要，我得在忘记之前说一下。

So this is important that I say this before I forget.

非常重要的是，当他完成RASP空降训练后，虽然听起来可能有点好笑，但当他去游骑兵学校时，他会被分配到第一、第二或第三营。

It's really important that when he goes through finishes RASP airborne, it might be funny, but when he goes to ranger school because he'll get assigned to a battalion, you know, one, two, or three.

我不知道他会不会选择。

I don't know if he'll pick or not.

那要么是佐治亚州的萨凡纳，要么是佐治亚州的本宁堡，或者华盛顿州的刘易斯堡。

That's either Savannah, Georgia, Benning, Georgia, or Fort Lewis, Washington.

对吧？

Right?

然后他会去游骑兵学校。

Then he'll go to Ranger School.

他在游骑兵学校期间，你一定要把所有东西都寄给军士长格雷西。

While he's in Ranger School, you should definitely address everything to like sergeant major Gracie.

对吧？

Right?

因为教官们在他收到你的包裹时会找他麻烦。

Because then the instructors are gonna fuck with him when he gets a care package from you.

你知道的，你打算给他寄些花生酱果酱之类的，他们却会问：‘军士长那个谁？’

You know, you're trying to send him, some peanut butter and jelly or whatever, and they're gonna go, sergeant major fucking who?

然后他就会被骚扰和捉弄。

And and then he'll get harassed and hazed.

所以他在这方面不需要任何帮助。

So He doesn't need any help on that.

得了吧，老兄。

Come on, man.

他们已经在好好地捉弄他了。

They're already doing a good job harassing him.

好吧。

Alright.

所以即使今天在练习翻滚时，你也非常注重避开危险的位置。

So even even rolling today, you were very focused on staying out of the dangerous positions.

于是出现了一个问题：你如何看待竞技与柔术作为自卫术的本质之间的关系？

And a question came up, how do you feel about competition versus the the true nature of what jujitsu is designed to be as a self defense?

你觉得它现在的发展状态，和你认为它应该保持的状态相比如何？

How do you feel about where it's at now versus where you where you think it should be or should stay?

总的来说，武术。

Martial art in general Mhmm.

别去争论哪种武术更好，它们本来不是为竞技而设计的。

Forget which one is better than the other, was not made for competition.

武术，我父亲总是说，武术不是为竞技而存在的，而是为了让你在街头打斗中保护自己。

Martial art, my father always used to say that, martial art was not made for competition, was made for you to defend yourself in a street fight situation.

所以空手道、跆拳道、所有这些，还有功夫，都是为了让你在街头打斗中保护自己而设计的。

So karate, taekwondo, all of them, kung fu, they're all made for you to defend yourself in a street fight situation.

所以柔术、摔跤、柔道是一种武术，不是为了得分。

So jujitsu, wrestling, judo, it's a martial art, not for not for scoring points.

当你的父亲和叔叔向前田大师学习时。

And when your father and your uncle were learning from master Maeda.

他们当时在巴西成长的环境是怎样的？

When they learned from him, how was Brazil where they were growing up?

他们成长的街区是不是很危险？

Was it pretty tough, like neighborhoods where they're growing up?

他们是否感到有必要将这种技艺变成自己的东西？

Is it they they found a need to take that that art and then make it their

自己？

own?

危险无处不在。

Dangers exist Everywhere.

总是如此。

Always Yeah.

而且无处不在。

And everywhere.

当然。

For sure.

回到维京时代，他们入侵英格兰仅仅是因为英格兰拥有他们想要掠夺的资源。

Go back the Viking era invading just because England had need tanks to take from it.

他们会前往那里。

They would go over there.

他们会航行穿越世界，长达数月，只为抵达英格兰。

They would sail across the world just for months and to come over to England.

就是存在着邪恶。

It's just there is evil.

了解这一点很有趣。

Fascinating to know

巴西柔术的起源，他们看到了某种东西，然后就想：让我们根据我们的环境来改造它。

the the origin of Brazilian jiu jitsu, how they took they saw something, and then they were like, let's mold this for what were our environment.

那更多是他们学到了。

It was it was more of a they learn.

我父亲通过观察来学习，因为他自己做不到。

My father learned by watching because he couldn't do it.

他太瘦小了。

He was too small.

所以他记住了那些动作，当他们可能

So he memorized the moves when they might

太瘦小了，比如

so too small, like

他不是。

He was no.

他很弱。

He was weak.

他连俯卧撑都做不了，非常瘦弱，所以我的叔叔们看到他时，他就通过观察来学习。

Couldn't do a push up, very skinny, so my uncles would see him down, he would learn by watching.

我明白了。

I see.

哦，十六、十七岁。

Oof, sixteen, seventeen.

有一天，我叔叔上课迟到了，我父亲顶了上去，他记住了那些动作，走上前对学生们说：‘我来帮你们复习一下动作，等我哥哥来为止’，然后给学生们上了一节课。

And then one day my uncle was late for a class, my father stepped in, he memorized the moves, stepped in and told told told the student, hey, I'll I'll review the moves with you until my brother gets here, and taught the student a class.

他只是复习那些动作，并没有创造任何新东西。

Just reviewing the moves, but he didn't create anything new.

他总是说，他没有发明汽车，也没有发明轮子。

He always used to say, he didn't invent the car, he didn't invent the wheel.

他发明的是千斤顶。

What he did is he invented the jack.

用一只手，你就可以通过杠杆原理把车抬起来。

So with one hand, you can lift the car up using leverage.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以他只是在动作中加入了杠杆原理。

So he just add leverage into the move.

所以他只是做了一些小改动，让动作更简单了。

So he just changed little things that made easier.

等我叔叔赶到时，我已经看到了，于是我接替他给学生上课。

And by the time my uncle arrived, I saw it, I replaced the class to the student.

学生说：如果你不介意的话，从今以后我想跟他上课。

The student is like, if you don't mind, from now on, I would like to take classes from him.

哦，哇哦。

Oh, wow.

那时我叔叔问：你做了什么？

And that's when my uncle was like, what did you do?

你给他展示了什么？

What did you show him?

但这成了我们家族的一段追求。

But it became a quest for my family.

很多人认为格雷瑟家族傲慢，因为他们贬低其他武种。

A lot of people thought the Gracers are arrogant by trying to put down the other arbs.

不是的。

No.

这不是傲慢，而是一场追求。

It was not arrogance, it was a quest.

空手道说他们是世界上最强的。

Karate said that they're best in the world.

拳击说他们是世界上最好的拳手。

Boxing say that they're the best fighters in the world.

功夫也说他们是世界上最好的拳手。

And kung fu said they're the best fighters in the world.

只有一种方法能弄清楚。

There's only one way to find out.

设定时间限制、体重级别、规则和手套，然后我们来比一比。

Take time limit, the weight division, the rules, the gloves, and let's do it.

因此，寻找我们所了解的柔术——我父亲、我的叔叔们、我的堂兄弟、我的兄弟们——能否对抗一位优秀的拳击手，就成了我们家族的使命。拳击手会说：嘿。

So it became a quest for my family to find out if the jujitsu that we knew, my father, my uncles, my cousins, my brothers, if we work against a box, a good boxer, the boxer says, hey.

没人能近身抓住我。

Nobody getting a clinch on me.

我会把每个人都打倒。

I'll knock everybody out.

一个空手道高手，我会劈断木板，踢碎箱子。

A karate guy, man, I'll break boards, and I'll kick boxes.

我会打断棒球棒，击败所有人。

I'll break baseball bats, and I'll beat everybody.

我会把每个人都打倒。

I'll knock everybody out.

好吧，只有一个地方能真正弄清楚。

Well, let's only one where you find out.

当然。

Absolutely.

让我们来谈谈规则、时间限制、体重级别、不戴手套、没有任何规则，一切皆可。

Let's take the rules, time limit, weight division, no gloves, no rules, everything goes.

你做你的事。

You do your thing.

我会做

I'll do

我的事。

my thing.

他们真的会在报纸上登广告吗？

Is is it true that they would put ads out in the paper?

是的。

Oh, yeah.

然后说，嘿。

And say, hey.

想打架的话，就来这儿。

If you wanna fight, show here.

基本上，如果你觉得自己是个硬汉，就到这个地址来，去码头。

Pretty much if you think you're a tough guy, show up at this address and Go to the harbor.

他们会去查看一下，看看是不是真的。

They'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll they'll look in to see if Right.

看看他们做的这些事是否有效。

If this stuff that they did work.

我觉得这太惊人了。

I I find that to be amazing.

所以这不仅仅是我说的，我特别喜欢这一点。

So it wasn't just I love that.

这不仅仅是说，直到那时，大家都觉得自己的才是最好的。

It wasn't just saying, until then, everybody's like, well, mine's the best.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

我的才是最好的，因为这个。

Mine's the best because of this.

不。

No.

我的才是最好的，因为那个。

Mine's the best because of that.

对。

Right.

但他们从来不会去实际检验一下。

But they would never put it to the test to to try out.

但从统计上看，我觉得你其实领先，因为你平时街头打斗的场景往往都会摔倒在地，而你在地面上更厉害。

But statistically, I feel like you were ahead just based on the fact that your average street fight engagement goes to the ground, and you're better on the ground.

我的意思是，拉近距离，进入缠抱，完成摔倒。

I mean, close the distance, achieve the clinch, make the takedown.

是的。

Yes.

这是因为其他武术有局限性。

It's because of they have limitations on the other arts.

对。

Right.

这就是我们发现的。

That's what we find out.

拳击很棒。

Boxing is great.

我不是说我不怕挨打。

I'm not saying I'm punch proof.

空手道也很棒。

Karate is great.

我完全不怕挨打。

I'm not punch proof at all.

如果你打我一下，我就倒下了。

If you hit me once, I'm going down.

是的。

Yep.

但如果有两名拳击手在比赛中陷入缠抱，裁判会介入并把他们分开。

But if two boxers are fighting and they get in a clinch, the referee stops and separate them.

嗯。

Mhmm.

如果没有裁判呢？

What if there's no referee?

对。

Right.

如果他们继续打下去呢？

What if they keep going?

嗯。

Mhmm.

你看，两个跆拳道选手，最终肯定会缠斗在一起。

You see, two Taekwondo guys, they eventually, they're gonna get in a clinch on each other.

如果没有裁判，会发生什么？

If there's no referee, what's gonna happen?

或者摔跤，你把对手的背压在地上，你就赢了。

Or wrestling, they pin your back to the ground, you win.

但如果没有规则，那又怎样？

But what if there's no rules Right.

而且还没有时间限制？

And there's no time limit?

你把对方压住了，可那又怎样？

You've pinned the guy down, but so what?

柔道中，你完成一个完美的投技，比赛就会停止。

Judo, you do a perfect throw when and the fight stops.

如果没有裁判来终止比赛呢？

What if there's no referee to stop the fight?

你是否做出完美的投技根本不重要。

Doesn't matter if you do a perfect throw or not.

所以我们超越了这一点。

So we go beyond that.

我们的风格不在乎你是否进入缠抱、是否摔倒在地、是否完成完美的压制，我们追求的是降服，让对方认输。

Our style, it doesn't matter if you get in a clinch, if you get to the ground, if you do a perfect pin, we go for the submission, tell somebody give up.

对。

Right.

当你和你的兄弟们成长时，这种情况持续了吗？

Did this continue when you and your brothers were growing up?

因为你很小的时候就开始练柔术了，你和

Because you started jiu jitsu when you were very small, you and

你的兄弟们。

your brothers.

你们当时也会这样互相测试吗？

Did you guys also do that, test each other that way?

我们总是，我的意思是，我们从小看着家里的长辈、堂兄弟们练，就会想，来吧，让我也试试。

We we we always I mean, we grew up on the families watching the old brothers, the old cousins doing it, and it's like, come on, let me do it.

我也想试试。

I wanna try that too.

让我加入，让我加入。

Please put me in put me in.

好的。

Okay.

所以这在当时就是一种文化现象，本来就是这样的。

So that that was it was culturally going on It in the was just that was the way it is.

我们之间互相练习，但始终是为了追求终结，而不是仅仅因为得了一分就说赢了。

It's it's we do it among ourselves and but always training for to go for the finish, not just, well, I won because because I score a point.

对。

Right.

我赢了，就连空手道、跆拳道最近也输了很多，我觉得是因为比赛制度。

I won and even karate, Taekwondo, they lost a lot lately, I think, because of tournaments.

是的

Mhmm.

他们互相标记。

They tag.

我得了一分。

I scored a point.

我赢了。

I won.

第二天，克赖德并不适合那样。

Second day, Crider was not made for that.

他们是为了击倒你而设计的。

They were made to knock you out.

他们打你。

They hit you.

今天看比赛是不现实的。

It's unrealistic watching the the competition in Today.

是的。

Right.

而且以前的比赛都是互相击倒对方，是的。

And competition from back in the day when they used to knock each other out and Right.

哇。

Wow.

这种方式更安全，但如果没有达到目标，那你就是训练错了。

It's safer this way, but was not met, so you're training wrong.

对。

Right.

因为现在比赛没有时间限制，只有降服制，或者你因为精疲力尽而认输。

Because now they have no time limit matches and submission only matches, or you give up because you're so exhausted.

所以比赛可能会持续

So it can go

就应该这样。

It should be like that.

是的。

Yeah.

街头没有时间限制。

There's no time limit on the street.

再说，武术整体上是为了让你在街头斗殴中自卫而创造的。

Again, martial art in general was made for you to defend yourself in a street fight situation.

对。

Yeah.

他们是在迎合观众。

They're catering to the viewer.

观众想要

The viewer wants to

看到快速的动作。

see fast action.

砰。

Boom.

砰。

Boom.

五分钟。

Five minutes.

让我们五分钟。

Let's Five minutes.

请快点分出胜负。

Somebody win, please.

人们不可能坐上三十分钟到一小时，看着两个人互打。

People can't sit for thirty minutes to an hour watching two guys going at it.

但这就是为什么它没被正确理解。

It's But that's why it was not met Right.

为了比赛。

For competition.

它的目的是让你学习自卫。

It was met for you to learn as a self defense.

我也觉得你提到这一点很有趣，或者说有人提到了，我的确清楚地记得第一盘VHS录像带。

I also thought it was interesting that you brought up or it was brought up I mean, I I can clearly remember the first VHS tape.

你当时穿着道服。

You were wearing a gi.

在我的脑海里，我想着这些衣袖是我绝对不希望别人抓住的东西。

And in my brain, I'm thinking that's handles that I don't want people to grab onto.

你的视角完全不一样，而我花了整整四十一年才明白：这真是他妈的聪明。

Your perspective is totally different, and it made it all it's taken me forty one years of my life to go, that's real fucking smart.

你可能

You might

说是个陷阱。

say trap.

这是个陷阱。

It's a trap.

是的。

Yeah.

当你这么做的时候，这简直是个陷阱。

When you Pretty much it's a trap.

就像是，来吧，抓住我的道服。

It's like, go ahead, grab onto the gi.

嗯。

Mhmm.

当他们抓住时，我知道他们的手在哪里。

When they grab on, I know where their hand where their where their hand is at.

对。

Right.

所以如果他们抓着不放，就不会打我。

So I and if they are holding on, they're not punching.

如果他们无处可抓，就会直接打我。

If they have nothing to hold on, they're gonna be hitting me.

我不想被打。

I don't wanna get hit.

所以尽管吧。

So go ahead.

抓住我。

Hold on to me.

他们抓住了。

I they hold it.

是的。

Yes.

这会让事情稍微难一点，但他们就被困住了。

Makes it a little harder, but they're stuck.

当他们一整天都抓着我不放时，我就这样训练。

And I train with that when they grab you onto me all day long.

所以尽管吧。

So go ahead.

抓住吧。

Grab on.

不。

No.

没问题。

Not a problem.

我觉得这太棒了。

I think that's brilliant.

我怎么没想到呢？

Why didn't I think of that?

比如，给他们一个把手，这样你就知道这是个已知的要素。

Like, give them a handle, then you know it's a known commodity.

它不再是你知道的，他们攻击时的意外或未知情况，而是...

It's no longer, you know, the unexpected or unknown of their striking versus yeah.

这是人的本能。

And it's human instinct.

哦，当然。

Oh, absolutely.

为什么两个男人要在酒吧里打架？

Why should two guys get in a fight in a bar?

最先脱掉的是T恤。

First thing to go is the t shirts.

他们互相拽着对方的衬衫，推来搡去。

They grab each other's shirts, push and shove.

结果两人都光着膀子走出来，衣服全扯烂了。

Everybody both walk out with no shirt, all ripped up.

为什么会这样？

Why is that?

你说你以前会研究对手。

You said that you used to study your opponents.

随着你的职业生涯发展，你是否引入了拳击手或跆拳道选手，以便更好地了解如何应对专精于拳击或跆拳道的对手？

Did you bring in strikers then to have a little bit more essay or or situational awareness on dealing with someone who is strictly good at, let's say, boxing or Taekwondo as, you know, your career progressed?

从一开始就是这样。

From the beginning, yes.

是的

Yep.

不是在它发展起来的时候。

Not not when it progressed.

不。

No.

我们一直这样训练。

We always train like that.

是的

Yep.

所以我们引入不同的武术流派来尝试。

So we bring different styles of martial art to try out.

你转化了多少人？

How many did you convert?

有多少人像我一样，转化了很多人？

How many were like, I convert a lot of people.

是的

Yeah.

你把他们扭一扭，像拧麻花一样，然后他们就会说，天啊，我得多元化一下我的

You you twist them, pretzel them up a little bit, and they're like, man, I need to diversify my

投资组合。

portfolio.

我确实转化了很多。

I convert yeah.

我的意思是，

I mean,

我改变了很多人的生活，比如说。

the I change I change a lot of people's life, let's say.

我知道。

I'm aware of that.

从技术上讲，是数千万。

Technically, multimillions.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

你

Do you

觉得我意思是，基于

think that I mean, based on

你第一次打比赛时多大？

how how old are you in that first fight?

26岁。

26.

第一次UFC。

The first UFC.

是的。

Yes.

我觉得时机恰到好处。

I feel like the timing was perfect.

意思是，我当时是个年轻人，根本不知道什么柔术。

Meaning that, like, I I didn't know about you know, was a young man at the time.

我当时不知道有柔术，而现在它已经登上了舞台。

I didn't know about jujitsu, and now it's on a stage.

因此，在接下来的十年、二十年里，随着它的发展，你认为正是这完美的时机，才让它变得如此普及，传播得如此迅速吗？

And therefore, the growth rate, you know, over the next decade and two decade, you know, as that progressed, do you think it was just the perfect timing of that that made it so much more prolific and it spread so much faster?

我认为它的运作方式很特别，没有时间限制，没有规则。

I think the way it was done, no time limits no time limit, no rules.

嗯。

Mhmm.

两个人走进来，只有一个人走出去。

One man two men walk in, one walk out.

就像那样进行的。

It's like the way did.

是的

Yeah.

太棒了

It was awesome.

全都太棒了

It's all awesome.

没有时间限制，没有手套，没有体重分级，然后最瘦小的那个人

No time limits, no gloves, no weight division, and then the smallest guy

那么，这到底是怎么发生的？

So what how did that come about?

我知道很多人都讲过这个故事，但我并不清楚。

I know there's a lot I've heard this story before, but I don't know.

我从来没听你讲过，你是怎么在所有兄弟和所有人中脱颖而出的。

I've never heard it from you of how you were the one out of all your brothers and everybody.

你是怎么

How did that

发生在哪里？

take place?

本来要在全国电视上播出，嗯。

It was gonna be on national TV Mhmm.

付费点播。

Pay per view.

所以我的电影选了一个人长得挺帅的。

So my film had picked some guy somebody good looking.

别告诉我兄弟和表亲们。

Don't tell my brothers and cousins that.

这可是要在全国电视上播出啊。

It's like, it's gonna be on national TV.

所以他们就说，好吧。

So they're like, okay.

你不能是个丑陋的兄弟或表亲。

You cannot be a ugly brother or cousin.

来吧，老兄。

Come on, man.

我喜欢。

I like it.

好吧。

Okay.

那可真快。

Was that was quick.

所以。

So

那真快。

That was quick.

这回答真快。

That's a quick answer.

我无话可说。

I can't argue.

这简直是最好笑的笑声。

It's all the coolest laugh.

嘿。

Hey.

好了，各位。

Alright, guys.

谢谢你们

Thanks for

收看。

tuning in.

现代陆军格斗术是怎么回事？

How so Modern Army Combatives.

柔术是什么时候成为它的基础的？

When did jiu jitsu become the foundation of that?

我不清楚。

I I don't know.

我当过兵。

I was in the army.

我们并没有完整地实施现代陆军格斗术训练项目。

We didn't do a a full Modern Army Combatives program.

那个项目我没实际参加过，我觉得应该是2008年左右，后来才有的。

That didn't I didn't actually do it, so I think it was more like 2008, you know, later on.

但我们有幸靠近刘易斯堡的一所训练学院。

But we had the the benefit of being close to one of the the academies in Fort Lewis.

就像我说的，我们在第二游骑兵营内部学习这些内容。

And we like I said, we would learn within second ranger battalion.

它是什么时候成为军队正式训练大纲的一部分的？

When did it become part of the doctrine that was

军方是什么时候采纳的？

adopted by the military?

我们在布拉格堡后方开始教那些新兵。

We start teaching the the boys behind the fence at Fort Bragg.

是的

Yep.

他们之间有联系，很多游骑兵经常进出那里。

And they have a connection, a lot of rangers are in and out of there.

嗯

Mhmm.

所以游骑兵们得知我们去了红屋汽车旅馆，于是他们——是的。

So the rangers found out about us going the Red Roof Inn, so they Yeah.

带我们去了游骑兵第二营

Brought us to the Rangers, second battalion

嗯

Mhmm.

当时马特·拉尔森就在那里。

Where Matt Larson was there at the time.

是的

Yep.

然后马特·拉尔森开始来洛杉矶，和我们一起上课，接着带我们回到第二营，然后带我们去第一营、第三营和总部，马特·拉尔森大力推动，彻底改变了课程内容。

And then Matt Larson started to come down to LA and taking classes with us, and then bring us back to second, then he brought us to the first, to third, to headquarters, and Matt Larson pushed so much that he changed the The curriculum.

为陆军制定的。

The for the army.

是的。

Yeah.

从游骑兵开始，嗯。

For the the rangers Mhmm.

先从游骑兵开始，当游骑兵课程成为强制要求后，整个陆军便采纳了这套课程，发展成了陆军格斗术。

Start with the rangers, and then from the rangers when they became mandatory on the rangers, then the whole army took over from that curriculum, it became the army combatives.

但这一切基本上都是从游骑兵那里开始的，由马特·拉尔森推动的。

But it started pretty much over there at the rangers with Matt Larson.

我应该说声谢谢。

I should say thank you.

因为我觉得这太棒了。

Because I think that's awesome.

我的意思是，即使你除了运营一个社区学院或类似机构之外没有任何其他影响，但你所拥有的影响力却延伸到了军队和武装部队，通过这套体系帮助挽救生命、帮助他人，我认为这太棒了。

I mean, if you had zero impact besides running a community, you know, academy or, you know, whatever, but to have the influence that reached into, you know, the military and the armed services to help save life, save other people through that system, I think it's fantastic.

当时，时任上校的是麦克里斯特尔将军，我的长官。

At the time, it was colonel at the time it was colonel McChrystal, my general.

是的。

Yeah.

我记得他们带我去了他的办公室，他直接告诉我：我的士兵永远不会用这个。

And I remember they took me to his office and go and he's flat out told me, my soldiers will never use this.

于是我问：那么，既然如此，您为什么还要聘请我呢？

And so I was like, so with all due respect, why you hire me?

他说：我想让你打造一套体系，让他们有信心放下玩具，无论走到哪个战场，都能击败并保护自己对抗任何对手。

He's like, I want you to build to give them confidence that they can drop down their toys and go across any field and beat up, defend themselves against anybody across that field.

我说：有道理。

I was like, fair enough.

因为那时候，这一切还离得很远。

Because back then, it was far away.

对。

Right.

大家都从远处开枪。

Everybody shoots from far away

对。

Right.

互相射击。

At each other.

然后他说，我希望他们建立起信心，永远不会靠得那么近。

And then he's like, I want them to get confidence they will never get that close to each other.

多年后，整场战争变成了近距离作战。

Years later, it's the the whole war became close quarters

对。

Right.

在房屋内部。

Inside the houses.

我遇到一群海豹，他们说，老兄，上一次任务中，我们制服和勒晕的人比开枪射杀的还多。

And I met a group of seals, and they said, man, last tour, we knock out and choke out more people than we shot.

嗯。

Mhmm.

哇，真的吗。

It's like, wow.

虽然已经过去很久了，但他们当时是这样告诉我的。

It's been a long time ago, but they're they're like they're telling me this.

他们说，我当时就震惊了。

They're like I was like, wow.

因为战斗变得如此近距离，走进房子，砰的一声，打晕他们，或者转身控制，用锁喉技制服、控制并逮捕他们，而不是直接开枪射杀。

It's like because it became so close, walk into the house, bam, hit, knock them out, or turn them around, put them in a chokehold, subdue them and control and arrest them instead executing, shooting people.

你明白吗？

Do you see?

对。

Right.

所以他们在逮捕人。

So they were arresting people.

这几乎变成了一种轻松的工作。

It became almost like a resting job

完全正确。

Absolutely.

为了获取信息，而不是冲进去就开枪射杀所有人，不。

Instead to get information, instead just come in and shoot everybody and no.

他们明确告诉我，我们用窒息手段制服的人

They said they flat out told me we choke out

而且我都喜欢这两种方式。

and and I like both.

而且我觉得这些原则

And Well, I think the principles

而且用窒息手段制服的人比开枪射杀的还多。

And knock out people more people than we shot.

我当时就想，这不错。

I was like, that's that's good.

嗯，早在早期，尽管我对柔术的了解和经验有限，从2001年到2005年，柔术的原则就已经渗透到了人员控制中。

Well, even early on, you know, with my limited knowledge or experience with jujitsu, you know, between 2001 and 2005, the the principles of jujitsu bled over into, you know, people handling.

比如如何固定关节、移动对方，或者从A点带到B点，还有上手铐之类的技巧。

You know, how to how to immobilize a joint or move them or take them from point a to point b or cuff them and all those things.

所以从一开始，它就变得极其宝贵。

So it started becoming invaluable right out of the gate.

然后我想问下一个问题，我不太清楚时间线，但当它从MACP转变为SOCP时，

And then I guess my next question would be, and I don't know the timeline, but when it went from MACP to SOCP.

对吧？

Right?

现在他们用的格斗术新版本叫什么？

The the what's what's the new version called of combatives that they do now?

特种作战SOCP。

Special operations SOCP.

是的

Yeah.

我去谷歌一下。

I'll Google it.

是的

Yeah.

我稍后回复

I'll get back

你。

to you.

杰米。

Jamie.

很高兴。

Glad it.

但我猜那只是整合了类似的技术。

But but I guess that just incorporated similar techniques.

我认识了格雷格·汤普森。

I met Greg Thompson.

格雷格·汤普森是我的黑带弟子。

Greg Thompson is my black belt.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

所以，格雷格，我有机会去昆蒂科的HRT，和他们的新特战队员一起训练。

So Greg, I had the ability or the opportunity to go to HRT in Quantico and work with their Knot, so their new operator guys.

那是我第一次做这件事。

And that was the first time I'd done it.

那真是太棒了。

It was it was awesome.

我的意思是，我之前在OGA工作的那个办公室，他们觉得我们不需要更多的柔术。

I mean, the thing that got pushed back from the office that I was working for in OGA is they're like, well, we we don't need more jujitsu.

我们需要的是，你知道的，A、B和C。

We need, you know, a, b, and c.

我坐在那里，和格雷格·汤普森一起想，这真是太棒了。

I'm sitting there with Greg Thompson going, this this is amazing.

现在你们开始结合室内射击训练，利用家具，学习如何从背部反击，以及如何提升到下一个级别的战术工具——无论那是匕首（因为你的主导侧被封锁了），还是使用手枪，或是保护武器。

Now you're incorporating, you know, shoot houses with furniture and how to fight off your back and how to fight to your next level of tool, whatever that might be, whether it's the dagger because your, you know, dominant side is covered, or fight to your pistol or guard your weapon.

所以我觉得，外面有很多人。

So I feel like there was there's a lot of people out there.

目的是制服对方，而不是仅仅揍他一顿。

To arrest the guy instead of just beat him up.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

所以

So

把他转过去，戴上手铐，没错。

turned him around and put the flagscuffs on them and yep.

你有感受到阻力吗？

Did you did you feel a pushback?

我想那时候已经过去好几年了，等等，但你有没有感受到来自军方社区的阻力？他们试图采用非柔术体系的其他系统？

And I guess by then, it'd been, you know, several years and whatnot, but did you feel a pushback from that military community trying to go with other systems that weren't jujitsu based?

他们一直在学习。

They're always learning.

对。

Yep.

那是他们的工作。

That's their job.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们不会只保留一支步枪就完事了。

They don't just keep one rifle and that's it.

他们总是在寻找更好的步枪和更优的弹药，没错。

They're always looking for a better rifle and better ammunition and Sure.

武术也是同样的道理。

Same thing with martial art.

所以他们总在尝试融入新的元素，但柔术始终存在。

So they're always trying to incorporate, but jiu jitsu is there.

它总会回归。

It always comes back.

它一定会在那里。

Is is is gonna be there.

是的。

Yeah.

有些人更喜欢稍微多一点拳击。

They some guys like more a little more boxing.

这没问题，但他们必须懂得柔术。

It's okay, but they have to know jiu jitsu.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

它是我所有经历的核心。

It's at the core of all things that I've experienced.

有些人喜欢这种更像空手道或摔跤的风格，但他们必须懂得柔术。

Some guys like this is more of a karate style, more wrestling, but they have to know jiu jitsu.

对。

Right.

我有个自我调侃的故事，虽然我只是个新手、水平很差、糟糕的蓝带，但我当时和一位高手一起训练。

I had a this is I like self deprecating stories because although I'm a I'm a very novice, poor, terrible blue belt, I was working with Yes.

我今天看到了。

I saw that today.

是的。

Yeah.

很糟糕。

It was bad.

真的很糟糕。

It was it was real bad.

你注意到了吗？

You noticed you?

好吧。

Okay.

这就是为什么当你...

That's why when you're

我不想说，但你提起来了。

like I didn't wanna say anything, but you brought it up.

所以

So

我来拿这个。

I'll take that.

我配得上这个，先生。

I deserve that, sir.

所以这件事还挺搞笑的。

So this was kind of funny.

有一天我去了，那时我还在柔术的初级阶段，心里想着：好吧。

I show up one day, and I was I was still at the point of jujitsu where I'm like, alright.

班上人很多。

There's a lot of people in the class.

我想轮流跟这些人练，你知道的，随便谁都可以。

I wanna rotate through these, you know, whatever.

如果人数是奇数，我知道教授一定会加入，他特别喜欢捉弄我。

And if there was an odd number, I knew the professor would be in there, and he loved fucking with me.

因为我有军方背景之类的，他喜欢让我吃点苦头，把我勒晕。

Just my military background and whatnot, he liked to twist me up a little bit and choke me out.

太好笑了。

Hilarious.

我认识他的时候，他在科罗拉多斯普林斯，名叫汤姆·林恩 Jr.，是海军的奥运跆拳道选手，如果我没记错的话。

This guy, when I met him, he was in Colorado Springs, his name is Tom Lynn junior, and he was a Olympic Taekwondo guy, right, for the Navy, if I'm remembering this all correctly.

所以他当时是跆拳道三段黑带之类的，然后他转练了。

So he was a third degree black belt in Taekwondo or whatever, and then he got belted.

他最终拿到了柔术黑带，开了这家馆子，等等等等。

He ended up getting his black belt in jujitsu, started the academy, so on and so forth.

我出现在一个很小的圈子里，就问：嘿，你们总是让你们的孩子练柔术吗？这其实是我接下来要问的问题。

I showed up in a super small world, and I go, hey, do you I always get my kids into jujitsu, which is gonna be part of my next question.

我说：你们有军人折扣吗？

I said, do you guys do a military discount?

他回答：哦，有的。

He was like, oh, yeah.

你做什么？

What do you do?

我通常能说‘para rescue’或者‘p j’。

And I'm like, usually, I'm able to say para rescue or p j.

人们就会说，是的，酷。

And people are like, yeah, cool.

然后他们就过去了。

And they move on.

他却说，真的吗？

He goes, oh, no kidding.

我和我在奥运队时的室友后来成了p j，叫杰森·坎宁安，他最终在罗伯茨岭牺牲了，那里就有一种关联。

My roommate that I was on the Olympic team with went on to become a p j, Jason Cunningham, who ended up dying on Roberts Ridge, and there was just kind of a correlation there.

他最后一次见到他是在科罗拉多斯普林斯的一场比赛中。

And the last time he saw him was in Colorado Springs at a competition.

但最可怕的一天，我还是选我在健身房最糟的一天。

But scary worst day, I'll go with my worst day in the gym.

我到那儿时，外面一片白茫茫。

I show up and it's a white out.

我不确定我还能不能到达那里。

Like, I don't know if I can still get there.

于是我去了柔术训练，他说：好的，没问题。

So I show up at jujitsu, and he goes, alright, cool.

接下来的一个小时就我们两个人了。

It's just gonna be the two of us for the next hour.

我问：我们不是要先做些热身之类的吗？

I go, we're gonna like do the warm up stuff and whatnot?

他说：不用了，你没问题。

He's like, nah, you're good.

是这样的。

Here's the deal.

你用你的跆拳道进行打击，我只用柔术，你只用打击和踢腿。

You're gonna use your taekwondo in striking against my jujitsu, and I'm only gonna use jujitsu use jujitsu, and you're only gonna use striking and kicking.

他说：太棒了。

He's like, awesome.

你是柔术黑带。

You're black belt, jiu jitsu.

他说，不是，不过没关系，因为之后我们会换，你知道的，我来当另一个。

He goes, no, but it's fine because then we'll switch, you know, and I'll the other.

那是我一生中最艰难的一个小时。

It was the hardest hour of my life.

简直糟透了。

It was fucking awful.

结束后我开车回家，有那么一瞬间，我觉得我赢了。

I was driving home after it, and I thought I had him for a second.

当然，我第一次用柔术，就先对一个打击手使出了旋转技。

And of course, the first time I'm using jujitsu, I had spinned a striker first.

我出拳时还收着劲，毕竟这是对练，我不想伤到别人之类的。

And I'm pulling punches, like, don't know, you know, sparring, and I don't wanna hurt anybody or whatnot.

我们换过来后，他一拳打中我，我嘴里尝到了铁锈味。

We switch, and he cracks me, and I taste pennies.

我当时想，哦，好吧。

I was like, oh, okay.

我们得再加点劲儿。

We gotta turn it up just a little bit.

所以有一刻，我靠着笼子，他稍微压住我，我就想，砰。

So at one point, I'm against the cage, and he's I'm sprawling a little bit, and I'm like, boom.

我打了他几拳。

I'm getting a couple in.

我当时想，对。

I'm like, yeah.

我抓住机会了。

I'm getting it.

但我没注意到，他正在收窄我的重心，然后猛地一推，把我摔到了脖子上。

But what I'm not paying attention to is he's narrowing my base and then just whoop and dumps me on my on my neck.

我开车回家时，给他发了条信息，打了电话，说：哥们儿，我有点晕。

I'm driving home, and I text him, I call him, said, I'm a little fuzzy, man.