#354：别称之为复出

就像我会说Stellar Ventures在Cube Braille和18xx游戏中开辟了新天地一样，我认为你提出的方案将彻底改变这些游戏类型。

In much the same way that I would say Stellar Ventures is breaking new ground in Cube Braille and 18xx games, I think what you proposed would revolutionize those genres.

很多人谈论过18xx游戏很无聊，嗯。

A lot of people have talked about how 18xx Yeah.

他们还没见过呢。

They haven't seen it.

觉得无聊，就是一群人坐那儿五个小时。

Is boring and, like, you know, all these people sitting around for five hours.

我认为，如果你能在18xx游戏中让火车互相撞击，我们终于能吸引更广泛的群体对它产生兴趣。

I think if you were able to blast trains into other trains in 18 x x games, I think we would finally be able to open this up to like a larger market of people who would be interested in it.

缺少足够的火药味

There's not enough fire

和休战。

and truce.

扩大受众范围。

Widening the aperture.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

说到扩大受众范围，我认为为什么没有更多不以火车为主题的火车游戏呢？

I will say, like, as far as widening the aperture goes, I do think that, like why are there not more train games that aren't themed around trains?

我知道这听起来可能真的很傻。

I know that's gonna sound really stupid.

当然。

Sure.

比如，为什么没人更早这么做呢？

Like, I you know, like, why has no one done this more?

比如，给你的游戏换个更有趣的主题吧。

Like, just get put a more interesting theme on your Yeah.

一个不是以火车为主题的路线构建和股票交易游戏

Route building stock trading game that isn't

在你的Excel表格上？

On your Excel spreadsheet?

没错。

Exactly.

什么？

What?

我

I

我的意思是，我挺感兴趣的。

mean, it's like, I'm interested.

是的。

Like Yes.

马克已经求我玩一款18xx游戏整整十年了。

Mark's been begging me to play an 18xx game for, like, ten years.

我打算玩《Stellar Ventures》。

I'm gonna play Stellar Ventures.

我只能告诉你这么多。

I'll tell you that much.

里面还有宇宙飞船。

It's got spaceships in it.

我觉得这有点道理。

I think there's there's something to that.

我的意思是，我觉得让这个游戏节奏变慢或者限制其更有趣的主题的原因是，当人们玩Cubraille游戏或HNXX游戏时，他们心中会期待看到某些元素，比如铺设轨道或购买股票。

I mean, I think one of the things that sort of slow that down or or restrict that a more interesting theme is because when people play, I think, Cubraille games or HNXX games, they have certain things in mind that they wanna see, like laying track or buying stock.

当然，你可以把这些机制抽象到其他领域，比如科幻题材。

Of course, you could abstract that into other into other, like Perverts.

但有时候我觉得很难做到一一对应。

Into other genres, but sometimes I think it's harder to do one to one.

但这种做法以前已经有人做过。

But it's done been done before.

比如说，我会说《大肩膀之城》，凯文听了都笑得快断气了。

Like, I would say I would say City of the Big Shoulders, Kevin is dying laughing.

别管它是什么。

Don't what it is.

它就是你直接拿出来了。

It's it's such it's just like you you like pulled out

把规则书一翻，然后说：好吧。

the rule book and you're like, alright.

第一条规则是，这个游戏里你可以铺设轨道。

The first rule is you can lay track in this game.

然后大家就都开始说，哦，

And then it's like Everyone a lot of

很多人说：哦，我喜欢看到这个。

people going, oh, I love to see it.

我喜欢

I love

看到这个。

to see it.

但之前已经有人这么做过。

But it has been done before.

《大肩之城》是对这一玩法的一种不同演绎。

Eight cities of the big shoulders was a take on this that is different.

而且我觉得你们玩那个的时候很开心。

And and I think you enjoyed our play of that.

所以也许，你知道的，你的老板就是这样。

So maybe maybe this is, you know, your boss.

那个游戏。

That game.

我绝对喜欢《大肩之城》。

I absolutely adore city of the big shoulders.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，如果这些游戏不是以火车为主题，我可能会更喜欢它们。

What I'm saying is I would probably like the games a whole lot more if they weren't train themed.

我同意。

I I agree.

我同意你的看法。

I agree with you.

这确实以前做过，但并不常见。

There's there's certainly it's certainly been done before, but not very often.

我觉得《天体冒险》可能会开辟一个新的设计空间，我的意思是，确实如此。

And I think maybe Stellar Ventures will open up a new design space because I mean, yeah.

我觉得它在很多方面都做得很好。

I think it does a lot of things well.

所以，我们快速回到正题。

So getting back to it real, really quick.

我就不细说你赚钱的整个机制了，但这种设计很有趣——并不是像很多其他游戏那样，只依赖你能到达的城市和火车的强度。

So I I won't belabor the whole way that you you make money, but it's an interesting take on it where it's not just the cities that you can hit and the strength of your train as as it would be in a lot of those games.

这其实是一种平衡，既要考虑你的火箭有多强，也要考虑你访问了哪些星球。

It is a sort of balancing act between how strong your rockets are in this case and which planets you visited.

所以，这是一种关于每轮发放股息的有趣思路。

So it's just an interesting take on releasing dividends per round.

因此，再次说明，QBrael、18xx玩家以及玩过这类游戏的人，在我解释游戏机制时会听到很多熟悉的内容。

So again, QBrael and 18 x x players and people who've played those games at all will hear a lot of familiar things in my explanation of how the game works.

不过，也有很多非常新颖的设计，不容易被认出来，比如初始拍卖环节——在很多这类游戏中，都会通过拍卖来分配公司首张股份。

However, there are a lot of things that are really fresh takes and and will not be as recognizable, such as when the initial auction so a lot of these games have initial auctions where you will auction off to start the game the first share of of companies.

这里也是一样，但不同的是，当你在《星际风投》中购买一家公司的首张股份时，你还需要为它分配一个能力。

Same thing happens here, except in the order that the companies are auctioned, when you buy a company, a first share in a company in Stellar Ventures, you also will assign it a power.

所以，这同样是以前做过的事情，但这些能力就像是太空主题的特殊加成。

So this is, again, something that's been done before, but these are like, you know, space lean power.

因此，它带来了一种独特的非对称性能力，这很酷。

So it lends a unique sort of asymmetric power, which is cool.

而且可供选择的能力有很多，所以每局游戏都会有所不同。

And there are a a number that are available, so, you know, every game will be different.

此外，你选择公司及其能力时，还需要考虑该公司初始的起始位置。

And also, where your company starts is something you have to consider when when selecting the company and the power.

所以初始选择涉及很多因素。

So it there's a lot of things that go into the initial choice.

此外，我认为这款游戏以非常有趣的方式解决了人们在其他类型游戏中遇到的问题。

Furthermore, I think that this game addresses issues that people have had in those other types of games in really interesting ways.

比如，很多这类游戏，例如《Stellar Ventures》，只有公司经营者才能决定是否发行更多股份。

Like, a lot of these games, Seller Ventures for example, is a game where only the person who runs a company can decide whether or not to release more shares in a company.

这种机制你以前见过，你经常会玩这类游戏时，希望自己能对哪些股票可用有更多控制权。

That's something that you've seen before, and you'll often, like, find yourself playing one of these games and wishing that you had more control over which stocks were available.

或者如果有人囤积公司股份、故意不释放，这可能会让人很沮丧。

Or if somebody's hoarding a company or holding back, that can be a frustrating thing.

而《Stellar Ventures》有一个有趣的机制：每轮游戏中，你可以尝试发动敌意收购，强制释放一股股份并进行拍卖。

Well, Stellar Ventures has this interesting aspect to it where you can there's a phase every round of the game where you can try to do a hostile takeover and force a share to be released and to be auctioned over.

这需要你使用一种特殊的资金。

It takes a special kind of capital you have.

你必须花费这种资金才能强制将股份投入拍卖，但这为游戏创造了一种有趣的动态：即使某人把公司经营得非常好，本想自己保留，你也能强迫他出售。

You have to spend that in order to force the share to be put up, but it's it makes for an interesting dynamic in the game where somebody might be running the company really well and would ideally wanna hold onto it themselves, but you can force them to sell it.

也许当你拥有最多资金时，你就能迫使他们这么做。

And maybe you can force them to do that when you are the one who has the most money.

所以这正是游戏非常独特的一个方面。

So just like that's a very unique aspect to the game.

然而，最独特的地方是，我认为这正是《星际冒险》与众不同的地方：因为游戏设定在太空，所以有一个不受任何玩家控制的外星派系，由棋盘周围的外星行星代表。

However, the most unique aspect, this is the thing that that I think sets Star Adventures apart, is the fact that because it's in space, it's got this alien faction that is a non controlled by any of the players, and it's represented by these alien planets around the board.

每当你铺设轨道、太空轨道，或者说是游戏中称为前哨站的设施，连接到一个外星行星时，你就能获得一个外星文物、外星水晶之类的物品。

And anytime you lay track, space track, whatever, or I guess they're called outpost in this game, to an alien planet, you get this alien artifact or alien, you know, crystal or whatever.

你可以用这些物品来执行特殊行动。

And you can spend those in order to take special actions.

这是一点。

That's one thing.

但更有趣的是，这一点本身就很有趣：你四处奔波，收集这种资源，以便进行这些特别的行动，这本身就已经非常酷了。

But the more interesting aspect, and that's interesting in and of itself, the fact that you're going around trying to pick up this this resource in order to like do these really special actions is very very cool in and of itself.

但更令人惊叹的是，当你抵达这些行星时，你可以选择是否签署协议。

But even more cool, I would argue, is the fact that when you hit one of these planets, you can choose whether or not to sign the agreement.

明白吗？

Okay?

所以这个协议完全是出人意料的。

So this is this whole thing out of left field, this agreement.

明白吗？

Okay?

这意味着你正在向外星人出售一部分股份。

What this is is you are then selling a share to the aliens.

你实际上是把他们当作投资者拉入伙。

You're basically taking them on board as investors.

明白吗？

Okay?

我尽量说得快一点。

I'll I'll try to like make this quick.

但游戏中有一个机制，你可以同意向外星人出售股份，让他们投资，从而为你的公司注入资金。

But it's this dynamic in the game where you can agree to sell a share to the aliens to have them invest, which injects cash into your company.

他们会向公司的所有股东支付一笔相当可观的资金注入。

They pay out a fairly large cash injection to all the shareholders of the company.

所以这真的很好。

So that's really great.

此外，因为你现在和外星人结盟了，你还能获得另一种不对称的强力能力，更加酷炫。

Furthermore, because now you're with the aliens, you get another asymmetric power, even cooler.

现在你可以选择第二个能力来使用。

Now you're like, have a a second power that you get to pick.

然而，现在外星人对你的公司运营表现有了预期。

However, there's now a a thing where the aliens now have an expectation of how well you're gonna run the company.

存在一个随机因素：外星人会期望股价在游戏中逐步上涨。

There is this randomized factor where the aliens are gonna expect a a certain stock price that's gonna go higher and higher throughout the game.

股价可能会涨得非常高，也可能涨得不高，这取决于随机机制——当你访问外星行星时，他们的期望值会随机变化。

Now it may go very, very high or it may not go very high based on this random aspect where their expectations are randomized when certain things happen, whenever you visit an alien planet.

所以当你和他们签订协议时，你并不知道这会带来极高的期望，还是他们会接受你不太理想地运营公司。

So when you sign this agreement with them, you don't know if this is gonna mean a really high expectation or they're gonna be okay with you running it maybe less than optimally.

他们可能对你抱有根本无法实现的期望，也可能期望值比较低。

They may have, like, an expectation you'll never meet or they may be more reserved than that.

因为在游戏结束时，如果你是那些与外星人签订了协议的公司之一，但未能达到他们的期望，那么你持有的每股股票在游戏结束时的价值，通常会根据公司运营的好坏来决定。

Because at the end of the game, if you're one of the companies that has signed this agreement with the aliens and have not fulfilled what they expect, your share price at the end normally, at the end of this game, for every share you have a company, you will make money based on how well the company's been run.

基本上，每股股票的价值取决于公司表现如何，你可以在游戏中将这些价值兑现。

It's like, basically, like, each share will be worth a certain value based on how well the company's done, and you'll cash that out in the game.

然而，如果你是签订了协议但未达到外星人期望的公司之一，那么你持有的每股股票价值只有1美元。

However, if you if you're one of the companies that has signed this agreement and you haven't met the alien expectation, every share that you have is worth $1.

但这正是游戏非常有趣的地方：你获得了这笔现金注入，也获得了新的玩家能力，一切都很棒，但现在你必须把公司经营得非常出色。

And it's just like very, very interesting aspect of the game where now you've gotten this cash injection, you've gotten this new player power, everything's really cool, but now you've got to run the company really, really well.

或者，你干脆放弃，说：好吧，我拿走这笔现金注入，就不费心去经营公司，让股票在游戏结束时还有价值了。

Or maybe you abandon it and just say, hey, I'll take the cash injection and I'll just like give up on the fact that I'm gonna run this enough to make the the shares worth something at the end.

《星际风投》中有许多非常精彩的设计。

There are a lot of really, really cool aspects to Stellar Ventures.

如果我是你，我会说，如果你喜欢《立方轨道》，那么这款游戏绝对不容错过。

I would say that if you are a fan of cube rails, this is a must.

我的意思是，我 definitely 推荐你试试这个游戏。

I mean, I would say, definitely try this out.

如果你喜欢18xx类游戏，并且也玩一些轻度游戏，那么这款游戏我认为大约90分钟就能玩完。

If you're a fan of 18 x x games and you dabble in games that are lighter because this game, I think, would run most people in about ninety minutes.

它有点像立方铁路游戏的长度，大概两小时左右。

It's it's sort of cube rail length, maybe two hours.

我也强烈推荐你试试。

I would say definitely try it out as well.

对于其他人，如果你对立方铁路类游戏感兴趣，或者玩过《芝加哥快线》或《铁轨》系列游戏，我建议你试试这款。

For anyone else, I would say if you're if you're interested in cube rails, if you've seen games like Chicago Express or the iron rails games, I would say give this one a shot.

我认为这款游戏做了很多出色的设计，仅凭主题就赋予了它一种酷炫、新颖、与众不同的感觉，它可能不像许多火车类游戏那样沉闷或乏味，正如凯伦之前提到的那样。

I think this does a lot of things in a again, just the theme alone gives it a cool, fresh, different feeling to it, and it may not feel like a state or as boring as a lot of the train games in in a way that sort of Kellen has alluded to.

所以，是的，我非常喜欢这款游戏。

So, yeah, I was a really really big fan of this.

我非常期待在Dice Tower West和你们一起玩。

I'm very very eager to play with with you guys come Dice Tower West.

是的

Yeah.

这是对立方铁路18xx类型游戏非常棒的创新。

Just a a really, really cool take on the cube rail 18 x x genres.

是的

Yeah.

听起来都很好。

That all sounds great.

这听起来正是我非常想尝试玩的游戏。

Like, that sounds like something I'm very jazzed to now play as well.

是的

Yeah.

而且它具备很强的互动性，这是我最喜欢这类游戏的一点。

And it has that it has an interactivity that is one of my favorite things about these kind of games.

这一点它表现得淋漓尽致。

It has it in spades.

桌面上有很多协商的成分。

There's like a lot of negotiation at the table.

还有很多类似的情况，就是试图让某人以某种方式经营公司。

There's a lot of like, again, trying to get somebody to run a company in a certain way.

我之前没提到，但这个游戏允许你用自己的钱投资公司，这在很多训练类游戏中是得不到的体验。

I didn't mention this, but there's like There's opportunities to use your own money on a company that's something you don't get in a lot of training games.

有时候你会觉得必须听命于经营公司的人，因为他们采取的方式不是你想要的。

Like, sometimes you feel beholden to the person running the company because they're doing it in a way you don't want.

这款游戏允许你花自己的钱。

This game allows you to spend your own money.

它以很多非常有趣的方式处理了所谓的立方体游戏中的问题，或者人们不喜欢的那些游戏元素，对我来说，这些方式都特别新颖。

It's it's just a lot of really interesting ways to deal with quote unquote issues in cubriel games or or things people don't like in in those type of games in just really, to my eyes, fresh ways.

这真是一个非常、非常有趣的设计。

Just a really, really interesting design.

所以这就是由庞图斯·尼尔森设计、Tabletopus Games发行的《Stellar Ventures》。

So that is Stellar Ventures designed by Pontus Nielsen and published by Tabletopus Games.

当这篇评测发布时，Kickstarter上还剩几天时间。

When this review comes out, there will be a couple days left on Kickstarter.

所以我说，如果你感兴趣，一定要做足功课。

So I would say, if you're interested, do your due diligence.

但如果你想参与Kickstarter众筹，时间已经不多了。

But if you wanna get in on Kickstarter, your time is running out.

再次说明，这份评测样版由tabletopus.us提供。

Again, this was a review copy provided by tabletopus.us.

它在十四分钟内就成功筹资了。

It funded in fourteen minutes.

哇。

Wow.

这一定是纪录了吧？

It's gotta be a record, right?

这种情况从没发生过。

That never happens.

不予评论。

No comment.

好的。

Alright.

顺便提醒一下，如果你是赞助人并且正在参加Dice Tower West，我们正在举办一场派对。

It does Just a reminder, if you are a patron and you are at Dice Tower West, we are throwing a party.

我们都在忙很多事。

We are all doing a lot of work.

这是一个充满桌游的美好夜晚，非常有趣。

It is a lovely night of board games, super fun time.

你应该已经收到关于此事的邮件了。

You should have received an email about it.

如果你加入赞助人Patreon，只需给我们发邮件，我们会回复你。

If you join the patron Patreon, just email us and we'll get back to you.

这是一场非常美好的聚会。

It's a super lovely time.

Dice Tower West，就要开始了。

Dice Tower West, it's happening.

下个月就到了。

It's next month.

等不及了。

Can't wait.

哇哦。

Wow.

哇哦。

Wow.

哇哦。

Wow.

好的。

Alright.

我们今天来聊聊2025年桌游的重新构思与重制版本。

We are here to talk about re reimagined and reimplementations of board games in the year 2025.

我认为这个话题的动因显然是《七帝国》。

And I think the impetus for this topic, obviously, Seven Empires.

在BGG上什么才算重制版，我们或许能聊上十七个小时，因为这根本说不清楚，但我们不会这么做，因为大家不想听我们争论。

What constitutes a reimplementation on BGG is we could probably talk about for seventeen hours because it's very unclear how that happens, but we won't because people don't want us to argue.

我们已经花了三集以诚恳的态度争论，为你们制造了喜剧效果，现在我们将认真起来。

We spent three episodes arguing in good faith, making comedy gold for you, and now we will be serious.

我认为在2025年，我更可能选择一款重制版或重制游戏，而不是一款全新的桌游。

I think that I am more likely in 2025 to gravitate to a game that is a remake or reimplementation than a net new board game.

而且我

And I

我觉得这是一种全新的感受。

feel like this is a new feeling.

尼伦和马克，你们怎么回应？

Nielen and Mark, how do you reply?

我想我基本同意你的观点。

I think I probably agree with you on the whole.

如果这两类游戏分别是：由随机设计师和随机出版社推出的新游戏， versus 一款经过验证的经典游戏的重制版，我可能会选择后者。

If the two buckets of games were brand new game by, you know, random designer, random publisher versus reimplementation of a tried and true game, I would probably go with the latter.

我仍然认为，对我而言，最重要的决定因素是设计师或出版社。

I still think that the number one deciding factor of me would be, you know, designer or publisher.

但如果这些因素都随机化了，而选项要么是全新游戏，要么是重制版或复刻版，我可能会选择后者，因为我对产品的质量会更有信心。

But if those were sort of randomized, I and it was either brand new game or reimplementation or remake, I would probably go with the latter just because I would I would feel much more confident in the quality of the product.

对我而言，这里面既有理性层面，也有情感层面：理性上，我觉得这很有道理，我也认同这一点——就像马克说的，如果我想更有把握地得到一款好游戏，那当然如此。

There's like a rational and emotional component to this for me where it's like, yeah, rationally, I think that that makes sense and I would be aligned where it's like, yeah, if if I wanted to be more, to Mark's point, confident that what I was gonna be getting was gonna be a great game, then sure.

是的。

Yeah.

选择一款广受喜爱的现有设计，或者哪怕是一些不太受欢迎但潜力巨大的设计，加以完善、打磨，再以某种形式重新发布。

Take a a beloved existing design or perhaps even a not so beloved existing design that had a lot of potential, refine it, work in it, rerelease in some capacity.

当然。

Sure.

但我仍然觉得，我始终被那种全新、独特、我们从未见过的东西的魔力和吸引力所吸引。

But I I think that I still sort of I'm always attracted to the magic and the appeal of, like, something new and different that we haven't seen before.

并不是说我对最近大量涌现的重制版和重新设计游戏完全无动于衷。

Not to say that I'm, like, entirely immune to the host of remakes and reimplementations that we're getting getting a lot of recently.

但总的来说，我还是希望被一些全新、原创的东西所吸引和打动。

But, yeah, I I think it's it's broadly speaking, I would say I still want to be excited and charmed by something new, something brand new.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得马克可能没直接告诉尼兰，但他让我从另一个角度思考了这个问题。

I think Mark maybe not to tell Nilan he didn't, but Mark kind of made me think about this another way.

实际上，我想说的是，我在2026年面对着一个筛选问题——面对层出不穷的桌游。

It's it's actually like what I'm saying is is I am facing a filtering problem in 2026 with all of the board games that come out.

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，我这种习惯——或者说是思维模式的转变是：十年前我会说，别把同一款游戏重新包装再卖给我了，兄弟或姐妹；但现在我却会想，至少有人觉得这游戏足够好，才把它从打折区翻出来，重新上漆，改上几处。

And so this change in my habits, let's call it, or or thought process where I think ten years ago I would be like, don't repackage the same game and sell it to me again bro or gal, is now one of like, well, someone believed this was good enough to drag out of the, you know, the bargain basement and put a fresh coat of paint on it, change a couple things.

所以，筛选工作已经为我完成了，这让我无需去面对成千上万款游戏。

And so the filtering is being done already for me, and that prevents me from having to look at the thousands and thousands of games.

然后我认为，这另一个方面可能是2026年一个相当愤世嫉俗的凯伦，有点像尼兰，虽然这并不是主题，但我其实很好奇。

And then I think the other component of this is perhaps a very cynical Kellen in 2026, sort of like, Nilan, and this isn't really the topic, but I'm actually curious.

你觉得，我该怎么表达这个问题呢——你玩过的最好的桌游，不是指游戏中的表现，而是指游戏本身，是还没出现，还是已经出现了？

Like, do you believe that, I'm trying to phrase the question, that the best board game you've ever played, like game, not not like play of game, but game, is ahead of you or has already happened?

天啊。

Oh, god.

哇。

Wow.

没有。

No.

没有。

No.

我觉得这是个很棒的问题。

I I think that's a great question.

是的

Yeah.

问题是什么？

What is the question?

但我还觉得

And I I I but I also think that

我不是在变老，不是的。

Not like I'm getting older and No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

朋友在离世之类的。

Friends are dying or whatever.

但是

But

所以，为了直接回答这个问题，我认为最好的游戏还在未来。

So I I will say just to say answer the question, I think the best the best game is ahead of me.

我认为这个问题非常哲学，与其说是关于游戏的质量，不如说是关于你从游戏中想要什么。

I do think that that question is very philosophical and is less is less a matter of the quality of games so much as like what you want from games.

这说得通吗？

Does that make sense?

因为我觉得我们之前也讨论过类似的话题，比如我们的桌游一直在进步。

Because I think we've had conversations to the same extent before of like our board games always improving.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我认为我总是站在相反的一边，也就是说，我评估游戏设计的方式可能和你们两位不同。

And I think I'm always on the other side of that line, which is to say that like, know, I the way that I'm evaluating game design is probably different from the way that the two of you are evaluating game design.

对于这个问题，没有对错之分，也没有好坏之分，但我已经不再寻找那种能让我十年前感受到的东西了。

And, like, there's no right or a wrong way to answer that question or a good or a bad way, but, like, I am not looking for something that made me feel how I felt ten years ago.

相反，我更想找那种与之完全相反的东西。

If anything, I'm looking for like the opposite of that.

我想体验新事物，感受游戏设计朝着与过去不同的方向发展。

I want to experience new things and then sort of feel game design evolving into directions that are different from what it's done in the past.

因此，从根本上来说，这总让我觉得是一种进步。

So that will always strike me as improvement just like on a on a fundamental level.

尼伦，有个问题。

Question, Nielen.

你觉得这种成功率有多高？

What do you think is the hit rate on that?

那些完全新颖、并非重制版的发布游戏，能为你带来这种体验的比例如何？

What what is the hit rate on wholly new published games that have no this is no remake that do that for you?

也就是说，大概的成功率是多少？

Like, what is the what is the the success rate approximately?

我的意思是，你看。

I I mean, look.

这种情况非常罕见。

It's it's very rare.

我的意思是，这显然非常罕见。

I I it's obviously very rare.

对吧？

Right?

比如，我认为最近的一个例子是《钟楼》，不过它也不算新了。

Like, I I think the most recent example of something is Clock Tower, which is not that new anymore.

但某种程度上，我可能是那个在播客历史中频繁更换我前三名游戏的人。

But I also, like, you know, to some extent, I'm the person that's probably changing, like, my top three the more frequently over the history of the podcast.

我觉得我的第一名游戏已经换过三次了，没错。

I think my number one game has changed three times Sure.

在做这个节目的过程中，是的。

Over the course of doing this show Yeah.

和你们两位相比。

Compared to the two of you.

我觉得，这本身不一定说明什么，但我觉得，我不确定。

And I I I think that, like, that's not that doesn't say anything necessarily, but I think that, like, I'm I don't know.

我确实觉得，这应该很低，所以它就低。

I I I do think that, like, it's it's low just because it should be low.

你的博彩游戏显然不应该每年都来一次。

Like, I don't think your betting game should roll around every year, obviously.

是的。

Yeah.

我同意。

I agree.

对。

Yeah.

但我确实期望，而且我诚实地这么说。

But, like, I do I expect and I genuinely I say this in all honesty.

我期待我的新最爱游戏会在未来十年内推出。

I expect that my new favorite game will come out within the next ten years.

你知道的？

You know?

好吧，我只知道我听说Biblios会推出新版本，或者说是大豆面包。

Well, all I know is that I have seen that there will be a new version of Biblios coming out or soy bread.

所以，我期待我最喜欢的游戏会比我更早出现。

So I I expect that my favorite game will be ahead of me.

是的。

Yes.

他推出了《为王而战》和我，但你内心深处的乐观主义者

He aired with For the King and Me but the optimist in your heart

没错。

That's right.

仍然相信医生。

Still believes in Doctor.

芬恩。

Finn.

我想说的是，对我来说，这感觉像是一个合适的折中方案，因为我同意，确实有过不同版本的Azul，但我现在具体想到的是，有Azul、Azul迷你版和Azul巧克力版之类的，它们本质上是同一个游戏，只是重新包装了一下。

I will say that I think what feels like the the happy medium to me because I I agree like I know there have been different versions of Azul but what I'm thinking about specifically now is like there's Azul and Azul mini and Azul chocolate or whatever where they're like, it's the same game but like sort of repackaged.

甚至连其他的Azul版本，感觉上——我想说，它们确实相当不同。

And even even the other Azuls, like, they feel I mean, I guess they are they are fairly distinct.

但我最喜欢、最让我兴奋的是，当一款已经发布一段时间、通常由一位我们熟知其实力的设计者制作的游戏，重新包装、重新发布时——也许当时我们没意识到，或者事后才明白，这位设计师确实很出色，而这款游戏在当时被低估了。

But what what I like or what what makes me the most excited is when a game that has been maybe like released a while ago, and often by a designer that we know has chops, maybe we knew at the time or in retrospect, we know that they are a solid designer, that was maybe perhaps, like, underappreciated in its time, given a new coat of paint and a re release.

所以，不是那种只是稍微改改包装或主题的同一款游戏，而是像我们之前聊过很多次的那款游戏，现在我脑海里最清晰的例子就是它。

So maybe, like, not the same game published in a in a slightly different way or with, like, like, like a slightly different theme, but games like you know, we've talked about this game a ton, but I think it's, like, the most clear example that springs to mind now.

Quel Vadis。

Quel Vadis.

我记得当年玩过Quel Vadis，那时候它的主题非常普通，但游戏设计得非常好，典型的Kinesia风格，毫无冗余。

I remember playing Quel Vadis back in the day where it was like it had a very generic theme and the game was very well designed, very typically Kinesia, you know, no fat on it whatsoever.

我记得我很喜欢它，但当时身边没几个人玩过，它也不在桌游界的主流潮流之中。

And I remember liking it but having not many people like around me had played at the time and it wasn't like a game that wasn't necessarily in the board game zeitgeist.

而到了Zoovadis，它加入了现代元素，比如不对称能力等，却没有变得臃肿。

And then with Zoovadis, it got a lot of, like, the modern touches, the asymmetric powers and stuff like that without getting bloated.

但这种情况是，我知道这款游戏的核心设计非常出色，它原本被低估了，而如果没有重新包装，我可能根本不会再玩它，因为没人会对原版Quel Vadis的呈现方式感兴趣。

But that was in a situation where I knew that the bones of the game were really, really good, and it was a game that was underappreciated and that I might not have ever played again because nobody would be really interested in in playing Quel Vadis, given the presentation, what it was like.

但有了这些现代设计理念的加持，我对此感到非常兴奋。

But having it released with some of the modern sensibilities, I was very much excited in that.

我认为这是最理想的情况：一款多年前发布的游戏，玩过的人知道它设计扎实，或者我们根据发行商或设计师知道它设计出色，现在它被赋予了新生，核心机制依然坚实。

And I think that's like that's like the best situation where it's a game that was released a while ago or or people who have played it know that it's like a solid design or we know it's a solid design based on the the publisher or based on the designer, and it's just given a new life now where the bones are are solid, you know.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为可以说，Byte Wing Games 所做的工作堪称业界最佳。

And I think I think that's fair to say that I think what Byte Wing Games is doing is probably best in class here.

对吧？

Right?

因为另一个立刻想到的例子是《贝奥武夫：传奇》，这是一款疯狂又有趣的荒诞游戏，他们将其重制为《Ego》，在保留原味的同时，适度优化以适应现代玩家，却没有过度改动，还摆脱了早已过时的贝奥武夫主题。

Because the other example that immediately comes to mind is Beowulf the Legend, which is an absolutely insane game of silliness and and fun that they redid as ego where they smoothed it just enough for modern audiences, but didn't do too much, took it out of the Beowulf theme that fell out of favor hundreds of years ago.

而且，他们现在又在做同样的事，只是我不太记得那款游戏的名字了。

And, you know, they're doing it again right now with I don't know how to say that.

马克，你提过这个。

Mark, you've covered it.

Spectaculum。

Spectaculum.

Specical。

Specical.

是的。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

我这么说对吗？

Did I say that right?

差不多了。

Close enough.

比我强多了。

Better than I would.

那说对了。

That was right.

哦，哇。

Oh, wow.

这可是难得的夸奖。

That's a rare compliment.

目前它在Kickstarter上以《Gold Country》的名义上线，他们正在把这些曾经可能是B级的Kinesia游戏重新包装，加上新外观和现代设计理念，再重新推出。

It's currently on Kickstarter as Gold Country, and they're sort of taking these games that were maybe b tier Kinesia games, fresh coat of paint, modern thought process, rerunning them through.

在我看来，这些游戏的成功率将会高得多。

And, like, the hit rate on these games is, in my opinion, just going to be much, much higher

是的。

Yeah.

比随便一款2026年的游戏要高得多。

Than just a random game from 2026.

对吧？

Right?

还有人回到金乡了吗，还是得我来？

Is anyone back in Gold Country, or am I doing it?

你来吧。

You're doing it.

咱们来吧

Let's do

现场直播。

it live.

我很高兴我们现在聊这个，因为我本来就要确保有人来做。

I'm glad we're having the conversation now because I was gonna make sure that someone did.

好的。

Alright.

谁是胆小鬼？

Who's the chicken?

我们知道马克不会做，因为他不喜欢铺设轨道。

Well, we know Mark's not gonna do it because he can't admire laying track.

我想这是一款火车游戏。

I guess it's a train game.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

差不多吧。

More or less.

哦。

Oh.

嗯，现在我感兴趣了。

Well, now I'm interested.

你能用火车射击其他火车吗？

Can you shoot trains at other trains?

因为那样的话，我就同意了。

Because then I'm Yeah.

你可以，但没有射击。

You can there's no shooting.

好的。

Okay.

所以，Bitewing 在班上表现最好。

So, Bitewing does it best in class.

不予评论。

No comment.

不。

No.

我们确实做过评论。

We did make comments.

不予评论。

No comment.

没有问题。

No questions.

马克，我想再回过头来谈一下，因为你提到了Azul，但我觉得这跟我所说的完全不是一回事，是的。

Mark, I do wanna circle back because you did bring up Azul, which I find is like not what I'm talking about Yeah.

但我确实想聊聊这个。

But I do wanna talk about it.

你谈的像是一个桌游系列。

Like you're talking about a board game franchise.

是的。

Yes.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

明白。

Yes.

我们都看到《速度与激情》第17部了，但讲的其实是家庭，你知道的？

We're on Fast and the Furious 17, But I it's about the family, you know?

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

这是个问题。

And here's the question.

我们继续玩个抢答吧。

We'll we'll keep playing pop quiz here.

Azul，一款很棒的游戏。

Azul, fantastic game.

非常有趣，但讨厌抽牌机制。

Very fun, hate drafting.

我们都非常喜欢它。

We all really enjoy it.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，差不多算是一款好游戏。

Like, I mean, more or less like good game.

你更有可能尝试另一款Azul系列的游戏吗？

Are you more or less likely to try another game in the Azul line?

比如《Azul》的彩绘玻璃版推出了。

Like Azul stained glass comes out.

你更愿意玩这个，而不是其他随便的四人抽象游戏吗？

Do you wanna play it more than another random abstract four player game or less?

我更愿意。

I'm more.

我觉得我也更愿意，但只是稍微多一点。

I think I'm more, but but only slightly.

我认为这是因为，至少在《Azul》系列中，我不太记得是哪一款了，但最早的那几款《Azul》系列游戏，比如彩绘玻璃或者Syntra之类的，都没让我特别惊艳，也没觉得特别有趣。

And I think that is because, at least in the case of the Azul line, I remember the very I don't remember which which one it was, but the very first couple of Azul, the non Azul, like stained glass of Syntra or whatever the the first couple of games in the Azul line were, didn't really knock my socks off or weren't especially exciting to me.

所以我很快就把这些游戏在心里归类为不太好的那一类，因此我对它们的兴趣也降低了。

And so I quickly sort of, like, shifted all those games in my head to, like, the not so great category, and so I was, like, less eager for those.

但如果你要问，是想玩新的《Azul》还是一个完全随机的新抽象游戏？

But if you're gonna say, do you wanna play the new Azul versus a completely random new abstract game?

在这种情况下，我可能会选《Azul》，因为我会觉得它经过了良好的测试，是一款扎实的游戏，我对它更有信心。

In that case, I would probably go with the Azul because I would feel confident that it had been, you know, play tested well, and it would it would be like a sound game, and and I would have just more confidence in that.

但现在如果你让我在一款新的Azul游戏、一位我感兴趣的设计师或一家我信任的出版社推出的新抽象游戏之间做选择，这就变得难以抉择了。

Now if you give me the choice between a new Azul and a new new abstract by a designer I'm interested in or a publisher that I feel confident in, that makes it a tougher call.

但我认为，即使一款游戏只是带有Azul的名字而没有其他特别之处，它身上仍有一种内在的质量和可信度，这让我更愿意信任它。

But there is some inherent, I think, quality and trust that I lend to a game that is in the line, even if it just has the Azul name and nothing else, there's something implied there that allows me to trust it more, I think.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得你说得对。

I I think that's right.

因为，理想情况下，正是那种带来Azul和其他该系列游戏的品质控制，假设你喜欢这个系列，你就会默认它会持续保持这种水准。

Because, like, the hope is that the level of quality control that brought you Azul and brought other games, you know, in in that franchise, assuming you like the franchise, you assume that that's gonna continue to deliver.

对吧？

Right?

而且这一点，我认为，甚至独立于‘我喜欢Azul的核心机制’这个概念。

And that's that is even, I would say, separate from the notion of, like, okay.

我喜欢Azul的核心机制，所以我很可能也会喜欢那些以不同方式运用这一机制的游戏，即使Azul本身已经逐渐偏离了那个核心。

I like the core mechanic of Azul, so I'm probably going to like games that use that core mechanic in different ways even though Azul has somewhat steered from that.

但说实话，我知道这并不是重点，但我真的很难在前三个版本中选出我最喜欢的《Azul》。

But, like, I know this is not the point, but, like, I find it hard to pick my favorite Azul amongst the first three of those releases.

你知道吗？

You know?

我觉得彩绘玻璃和夏日亭台都很好，只是原因略有不同。

I think the stained glass and summer pavilion are both very good for slightly different reasons.

你知道吗？

You know?

嗯，我认为这个问题的答案对我来说肯定是更偏向于某个版本。

Like, yeah, I I I think that the answer to the question is definitely a more for me.

比如，如果你告诉我明天有一款新的《Azul》发布了，我肯定会立刻买下来。

Like, I am definitely more inclined to pick up if you told me there was a new Azul out tomorrow, I would be buying it tomorrow.

这说明了我对这个系列整体品质的信任有多深，无论从哪个角度看都是如此。

Like, that's how much traction I have from just the quality of of that franchise as it were, quote unquote, across the board.

而如果你告诉我克雷默和基斯林要推出一款抽象游戏，或者抱歉。

Whereas if you told me that Kramer and Keasling were releasing a abstract game or sorry.

不是两者都包括。

It's not both of them.

对吧？

Right?

只是其中之一。

It's just one of them.

无论谁做了《Azul》，如果明天他要发布一款抽象游戏，你知道，我当然还是会感到兴奋和感兴趣，但可能就不会是那种明天就买的情况了。

Whoever the one that did Azul is releasing an an abstract tomorrow, like, you know, I would still be excited and interested obviously, but it might not necessarily be a buy it tomorrow situation.

哦，有意思。

Oh, interesting.

所以，系列作品是有效的。

So franchises work.

系列作品是有效的。

Franchises work.

尽管我想说它们并不有效。

Even though I want to say they don't.

我越来越清楚，营销已经对我们所有人都产生了影响。

It's become clear to me that the marketing has worked on all of us.

那些作品，也许甚至算不上重制，更像是一些系列作品，具体要看是哪一个。

And those, maybe they don't even qualify as reimplementations, more as franchises depending on which one.

我觉得有些是，但有些甚至已经不再保持方块形状了。

I think some of them are, but some of them aren't even in square shapes anymore.

我的意思是，什么是神圣不可侵犯的？

Like I mean And what is sacred?

你明白我的意思吗？

Do you know what I mean?

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

Azul？

Azul?

嗯，我的意思是，是的。

Well, I mean, yeah.

我对《阿祖尔女王花园》有很多看法，它几乎已经不像一款阿祖尔游戏了。

I have a lot of opinions on Azul Queen's Garden which barely feels like an Azul game anymore.

所以，是的，到了某个时候，我们到底在做什么呢？但是——

So like, yeah, at some point it's what are we even doing but

戴伦，你知道这个吗？

Dylan, do you know this?

所有的阿祖尔系列游戏，都是由克雷默或基斯林等人设计的吗？

Are all the Azul line games, are they all designed by the same by Kramer or Keesling or whoever?

我觉得是基斯林。

I think it's Keesling.

它们都是吗？

Are they all

我要说，每一个都是由……呃，你知道吗？

I I am going to say that every single one of them is done by I'm gonna do I you know what?

为了确保准确，我打算查一下。

For the sake of just getting this right, I'm gonna look it up.

它们都是由基斯林设计的。

All of them are done by Keesling.

是的。

Yep.

对。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

我之前不知道这一点。

I was not aware of that.

但确实如此。

But yeah.

那最近几年我们推出的那些精炼扩展包呢？

What about the refinement expansions which we had we we've had in the last few years.

我认为最简单的是《沙丘：帝国》发布了，然后推出了独立扩展续作《沙丘：帝国：起义》，根据你的不同情况，这简直就是直接升级。

I think the easiest one is Dune Imperium came out, and then there's the standalone expansion sequel Dune Imperium Uprising, which depending on who you are is just like a straight up upgrade.

这对所有购买了《沙丘：帝国》的人来说可真够糟的。

That sucks for everyone who bought Dune Imperium.

你得到了Gott，但现在有了《起义》，几年后它显然更好。

You got Gott, but we now have Uprising, which is clearly better a couple years later.

你完全接受这个变化，还是依然生气，兄弟？

Totally cool with it or still mad, bro?

我觉得没那么爽。

Less cool, I would say.

因为，你知道，作为一个热爱《沙丘：帝国》的人，我几乎会建议任何人直接从《起义》开始，但内心深处我还是有点疑惑：我是不是更喜欢带着所有扩展包玩《帝国》，而不是玩《起义》？

Because, you know, as someone that loves Dune Imperium and and, you know, would tell almost anyone get Uprising as as the first step, there is still a part of me that's a little bit like, well, would I actually like doing imperium with all of the expansions more than I would like uprising?

我永远都不会知道答案，因为我根本不会走那条路。

I'm never gonna find out because I'm just not gonna go down that road.

那简直疯了。

That's like madness.

你知道的。

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得，当你没有……哦，这挺有意思，因为我本来想说，这在某种程度上似乎表现出对产品缺乏信心。

I I think that when you don't have oh, it's funny because it's like I was gonna say that that, like, almost exhibits, like, lack of confidence in a product to some extent.

但你知道，这并不是因为那是最愚蠢的决定。

But that's you know, it's it's not because that was just the smartest move.

他们推出了一款更精炼的游戏版本，并说服了所有已经拥有原版游戏的人再次购买。

They made a better refined version of the game, and they convinced everyone that already had the game to buy it again.

所以从他们的角度来看，这简直是两全其美。

So it's like, it's the best of both worlds from their perspective.

对吧？

Right?

但说实话，这件事确实让我有点生气。

But, like, yeah, it's something about that does make me mad a little bit.

从消费者的角度来看，我觉得这让人生气，因为它给产品带来了不确定性。

I I I guess from a consumer perspective, it makes me mad because it adds uncertainty to to the product.

是的。

Yeah.

目前，排名第五的最佳桌游是《沙丘：帝国》，排名第七的最佳桌游也是《沙丘：帝国》。

Well, as of right now, the fifth best board game of all time is Dune Imperium and the seventh best board game of all time is Dune Imperium.

哎呀，各位。

Oh, guys.

这对商业来说是好事，没错。

So this is good for business Uh-huh.

不管我们怎么想。

No matter what we think.

我想提一下两种小众的桌游类型，在这些类型中，重制和重版特别成功，或者至少对我来说很有效。

I wanna bring up two niche genres of board gaming where I think the reimplementation and remakes are especially successful or or at least work for me quite a bit.

那就是前面提到的18xx系列，还有立方铁路游戏，以及战争类游戏。

And that is the previously mentioned 18 x x, and and I would say even the cubrail games, as well as war games.

这些都是一些历史悠久的游戏类型。

So these are all these are both like genres of games that have been around for a long long time.

每当我看到一款18xx或Cubrill游戏推出新版、重制版或重印版时，我都会特别感兴趣，因为这些游戏最初发布时，通常由Winsome或这些小型出版社发行，印刷量极小，组件质量也非常差。

And whenever I see a 18 x x or Cubrill game get a new printing or like a reimplementation or a remake or whatever, I'm especially interested in those games because these are games where when they were first released, often by Winsome or these these smaller publishers, they were released like, you know, very small print runs, very very low component quality.

人们会说这些是绝佳的游戏，但组件质量太差，让人望而却步，而且通常副本数量极少，你得费尽心思寻找，还得为这些桌面上看起来并不精致的游戏支付远高于其价值的价格。

People would say these are fantastic games, but they're like, the component quality was so low that just made it unappealing try and, you know, was often often there weren't very many copies and you have to really seek them out and you're you're paying over the odds for these games that are like, you know, again, not especially nice on the table.

但你想想铁轨类游戏，比如《爱尔兰轨距》这些游戏。

But I found like, you know, you think about the iron rail games, Irish gauge and those games, you know.

如果你把它们的原始版本和Capstone推出的精美重制版做对比，就会发现后者提供了更吸引人、制作更精良的体验。

If you compare the original printings of those games versus these nice printings by Capstone, it's just such a a more inviting, well produced experience.

因此对于这些类型的游戏，比如18xx系列，很多原始版本的印刷量都非常非常小，而且很多都是手工制作的。

So for those genres, you know, the 18 x x games, there's a lot of these 18 x x games that have super super small original runs and and were, you know, lot of these are produced by hand.

它们的组件质量确实非常低，用‘拼凑’来形容可能有点贬义，但确实谈不上高品质。

They're very very, like, cobbled together is too pejorative, but, you know, just not super high component quality.

现在有很多公司，比如All Aboard Games，已经推出了非常出色的重制版，让这些游戏变得更具吸引力，也让我注意到并愿意去玩它们。

And there are a lot of companies now, like All Aboard Games, that are have done really, really nice remakes and just make these games much more appealing and put them on my radar for for games to play.

因为这些游戏刚推出时，往往在评论界反响很好。

Because often again, games were well received critically when they first came out.

只是当时的制作水平不够好，而现在这些新版给了这些游戏充分展现其应有魅力的机会。

It was just like the productions weren't up to snuff and now these are giving those games a chance to like shine as brightly as they sort of deserve.

战争游戏也是如此。

And the same goes for war games.

很多老式的战争游戏都是那种六边形战斗类型，棋子是小小的纸板片，完全是那个时代的产物，如今看来质量确实不够高。

You know, a lot of the older war games, you know, were these hex encounter things where the pieces are really small pieces of cardboard and just again, of their time and not really up to the grade in modern times.

但每当我看到一款战争游戏以精美的盒子或高品质的组件重新发行时，我就会觉得：嗯，这一定是一款好游戏，因为只有那些过去曾获得足够好评的作品，才值得被重新发行。

But whenever I see a war game is being re released with a nice box or really really nice components, I feel like, okay, this is a really good one because like this is a game that was critically, you know, claimed enough in the past that they are willing to re release it.

而这些正是我会主动去玩的游戏。

And those are the games that, like, I will gravitate towards.

许多老式战争游戏都推出了符合现代审美理念的重制版，根据我的经验，这些重制版几乎总是成功的，因为它们本身是优秀的设计，现在又以符合现代玩家期待的方式呈现出来。

There's a lot there's been a lot of rereleases of older war games that are done with more modern sensibilities, and I in my experience, they almost always hit when they're redone because they're they're solid games and they're now, like, presented in a way that is more aligned with what modern gamers would expect.

是的。

Yeah.

这恰好触及了我在这一领域也非常喜欢的一点，那就是有针对性地将游戏向特定受众群体调整。

That that that kind of like hits on something that I also kind of really like in this space, which is when you're very specifically nudging a game in a direction for a different audience.

对吧？

So right?

比如，这类情况有更极端或不那么极端的例子。

Like like, there there are, you know, more extreme or less extreme examples of this.

对吧？

Right?

就像我们之前讨论《七帝国》时提到的，那是《帝国》的欧洲化改进版。

Like, I like, I think that, you you know, the way that we spoke about seven empires earlier is the Eurified push of Imperial.

对吧？

Right?

很多人认为《青铜：伯明翰》就是《兰开夏》的略微欧洲化重制版。

Or a lot of people consider brass Birmingham, the slightly more Eurified reimplementation of of Lancashire for example.

但当我看到，尤其是当这种调整更极端时，比如重制版或重新发行版将游戏时长减半，或使其更具互动性，我总是很欣赏。

But, like, I always like, especially when you're, like, you're going a little bit more extreme than that, like, here's the reimplementation of the game or the rerelease of the game that halves the length or makes it sort of more interactive.

或者，我特别喜欢的一点是，像布鲁诺·卡特利奇这样的人在重做游戏时，会推出这些非常精致的双人重制版。

Or, like, one of the things I've loved, like, Bruno Catholics being in this tear of, like, redoing games is, like, these very refined two player reimplementations of them.

我就是特别喜欢这一点。

I I just kind of love that.

我喜欢抓住某款游戏的核心，然后非常精准地将其塑造成与原版大不相同，却又保留其本质的方向。

I like taking the core of something and very specifically molding it in a direction that's quite different from the original while sort of maintaining the core of what it is.

我非常喜爱这种做法。

I love that a lot.

我认为，在这类重制游戏中，最能让我兴奋的，就是这种类型。

That is something that's always gonna excite me the most, I think, in this camp of like reimplementations.

这挺有意思，因为我不确定我是否喜欢这样。

It's funny because I don't know that I like that.

哦，这是因为，就像我一直以来说的，我就是想要某款游戏的最好版本。

Oh, that's a because it's like, well, I just want like I think I've said this forever is that like, I just want the best version of something.

所以我默认新版本会更好、更丰富、更精美、更精致、更简洁。

And so my assumption is that the newer version is better, is bigger, is prettier, is is refined, is streamlined.

对。

Right.

但这里的意图并非如此。

Whereas that's not the intent here.

对吧？

Right?

意思是，在这个特定情况下，这个版本更好。

It's like, well, this is better in this one specific case.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我觉得，也许你更想说的是，这个重制版是为两人设计的，或者说是为欧洲玩家设计的。

And I think maybe more, you know, you're this is reimplemented but for two, or this is reimplemented but for Euro heads.

我们可以叫它欧洲垃圾。

We can call it euro slop.

我们想开始这个话题吗？

Do we wanna start that?

为什么不呢？

Why not?

欧洲垃圾。

Euro slop.

这会让他们兴奋起来。

That'll get them going.

有一件事我想简单提一下，因为这完全符合我的好奇心范畴。

One thing I kinda wanted to like also just quickly touch on which I this is like because it it falls so securely in the curiosity camp for me.

你知道，《啮齿动物的盛宴》仍然是我最爱的三款游戏之一，而且今年似乎要推出一个重制版。

So, like, you know, a feast for rodent is still in my top three favorite games of all time, and there's a reimplementation of it coming out, I wanna say this year.

哦，天哪。

Oh, no.

我骗了你。

I lied.

它今年将登陆Kickstarter，这本身有点令人担忧，但名字叫《丹麦人》。

It's going on to Kickstarter this year, which is in itself a little bit worrying, but called the Danes.

这有点模糊不清，但某种程度上，它是一次仍保留80%原貌的全面升级。

That is kind of like it's a little bit unclear about what it is, but to some extent, it is an overhaul that is still 80% the same.

我不确定这具体意味着什么，但他们时不时会发布一些关于新增内容的设计笔记，比如，你怎么可能给《啮齿动物盛宴》这种已经拥有上百万个空间的游戏添加新东西呢？

And I don't know what that means exactly, but every now and again, they sort of put out sort of designer notes about stuff that's being added to it and, like, you know, how do you add things to a game like a feast for rodent that already has, a million spaces.

所以，我猜还有很多其他方面也在调整，以适应这些变化。

So, like, there's a lot I assume that is also changing to accommodate that.

家园版图的设计简直疯狂。

The way that the home boards look is completely wild.

那里信息量太大了，我非常好奇这最终会走向何方。

It's just there's a lot going on there, and I'm very curious to see where this goes.

尽管想到要对像《啮齿动物盛宴》这样我如此热爱的游戏进行任何改动，都让我感到非常害怕。

Even though the prospect of sort of taking something that I love as much as a Feast for Rodin and, like, messing with it at all is very scary.

这正是那种令人兴奋又让人害怕的感觉，就像‘砰’的一下。

That's also just it's it's the exciting sort of scary where it's like, bang.

如果我比喜欢《鼠类盛宴》更喜欢这个怎么办？

What if I like this even more than a Feast for Rodin?

你知道的？

You know?

对我来说，这真是一个非常疯狂的可能性。

Like, that's just a that's just a wild possibility for me.

在讨论中，《奥丁盛宴》之所以有趣，是因为整个‘挪威人’部分。

And Feast for Odin is such an interesting game in this discussion because of like the whole Norwegians.

挪威人这个扩展版实际上更像一个补丁。

The way the fact that Norwegians was Totally.

而你正处在类似‘沙丘起义’那样的领域。

Expansion that was actually more of a patch.

所以你正处在那种‘沙丘起义’式的情境中。

And so you're sort of getting in the in the dune uprising space there.

就像有一种感觉，用‘被欺骗’这个词可能太重了，但你确实有点被逼着买了《挪威人》，因为它修复了《盛宴对奥丁》中的问题。

Like, there is like a feeling that you you kind of this is too strong a word, but you kind of got like tricked or forced, maybe it's a better word, into buying the Norwegians because it fixed issues that were in Feast for Odin.

不过，我知道《挪威人》在游戏粉丝中口碑很好，我认为大多数粉丝都对它的推出感到高兴。

Although, I I know that Norwegians is is well acclaimed by fans of the game, and I think most fans are happy that it came out.

但这只是个很有趣的现象，

But it's just an interesting sort of like

而且，我也想说，与此相反的是，如果《挪威人》从未推出过，《盛宴对奥丁》依然会是一款非凡的游戏。

And also, like, would also say, like, the counterpoint to that is is that if the Norwegians never existed, A Feast Road would still be a phenomenal game.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我不觉得《盛宴对奥丁》原版有什么根本性的问题。

Like, it's I wouldn't say there's anything that's like fundamentally broken in Sure.

原版。

Original.

原版。

Sure.

钓鱼？

Fishing?

也许吧。

Maybe.

可能有一点。

Maybe a little bit.

种田。

Farming.

我的意思是，养动物，可能有一点，但没关系。

So I mean, animal husbandry, maybe a little bit, but that's okay.

不过这条界限挺奇怪的。

It's a weird line though.

对吧？

Right?

因为如果80%以上都一样，那就相当于同一个游戏。

Because if it's 80% plus the same game, it's like the same game.

对。

Right.

如果只有50%相同，我就觉得他们只是把丹斯随便贴到这个上面了。

And then if it's like 50% the same game, I'm like, okay, they just slap the Danes onto this Sure.

因为Homeboy Ouve已经做了17款游戏，从精神内核上讲，每款至少有20%是相似的。

Because Homeboy Ouve has, know, made like 17 games that are all like spiritually they're all at least 20% the same.

所以这是一个谱系：如果相似度只有20%，它们可以算是不同的游戏。

So it's the spectrum of like if they're 20% the same, they can be different games.

如果达到50%，那你就得想，这是不是在圈钱了。

If they're 50%, you know, it's like is this a cash grab and so

对。

Right.

但作为这个游戏的粉丝，作为一个超级粉丝，当然，没有什么比急切地刷新F5、然后兴奋地点击返回更让人激动的了。

But I I think as a fan of as a super fan of the game, like, sure, nothing is more exciting than eagerly refreshing f five ing and you're gonna be super excited to hit back.

你肯定会是第一个打包的，尼尔。

You're gonna be the first packer, Neil.

我得说，这件事有几处让我感到害怕。

I I will say a couple things scare me about this.

它居然装在一个《暗黑地城》大小的盒子里，天哪。

It's apparently in a Gloomhaven sized box and is Oh, gosh.

每人要玩九十分钟。

Gonna be ninety minutes per player.

所以。

So

每人九十分钟？

Ninety minutes per player?

尼尔，我我。

Neil, I I

你刚才说的是这个吗？

Is that what you said?

每人九十分钟？

Ninety minutes per player?