热点话题：健康（？）竞争

大家好，欢迎来到桌游热点话题。我是蒂姆。

Hey there. Welcome to board game hot takes. My name is Tim.

这位是克里斯。

And this is Chris.

这位是亚当。

This is Adam.

今晚我会用非常轻柔的NPR电台声音说话，因为我现在在纽约市这家狭小的地下室酒店房间里。这里回声很大，所以我得尽量压低音量。我们看看这状态能维持多久。今晚我们要讨论的是竞争话题，这将是个热点主题集。

Tonight, I'm gonna be talking in my very quiet NPR voice because I'm in this little tiny literally basement hotel room in New York City. There's a lot of echo in here, so I'm gonna try to keep it down a little bit. We'll see how well that lasts throughout the whole episode. We're gonna be talking tonight about competition. This is gonna be a hot topic episode.

我们将讨论所有与竞争相关的内容。在讨论竞争之前，我们先来看些投票结果。我在投票中提出的问题是：在桌面游戏的竞争性对局中，你是否遭遇过蓄意作弊行为？我给出的选项是：是的。

We're gonna be talking about all things related to competition. Before we talk about competition, we're gonna have some poll results here. And the question that I asked on our poll is, have you ever experienced intentional cheating when playing a tabletop game kind of competition related? Here's the options I gave. Yes.

选择'是的'占36%，'我觉得有'占6%，而'没有'以58%占多数。

Got 36%. I think so. Got six percent. And no. Was a solid 58%.

恭喜那些从未遭遇过作弊的玩家们。你们呢？亚当、克里斯，你们在桌游中遇到过作弊行为吗？

Good for all of you that have never experienced cheating. How about you guys? Adam, Chris, have you guys experienced any cheating in tabletop gaming?

我特别记得有一次遇到作弊行为，是在一款合作游戏里。当时感觉很诡异。游戏叫《山丘上的背叛屋》，标题大概就是这几个词组合的。我那晚和网球搭档一起玩。

I can recall one time specifically that I have experienced cheating, and it was in a co op game. So it was weird. It's betrayal house on the hill, something something with those words in it. Betrayal of house on the hill, up on the house on the hill. My buddy, my tennis buddy was over one night.

当时我们五六个人玩到决赛圈，这游戏对我来说本来就不太好玩，而且毕竟是合作游戏，为什么要作弊？但我亲眼看见他偷偷把一些卡牌或资源往自己这边挪，以为没人注意。我就想：你在这游戏里作弊图什么？能改变什么吗？实在不理解。后来我好像又看到他故技重施。

We had a group of final five or six of us playing this game that's not too fun to me, and it's a co op game anyway, so why would you cheat? But I saw him, like, shuffling some cards or some resources, like, toward himself when he thought nobody was looking. And I'm like, why would you bother cheating at this game? Is that gonna make a difference? I don't understand why and I think I saw him do it again a second time.

我当时就想：又来？到底什么情况？不知道他是想加快游戏进度，还是单纯享受作弊的快感。完全搞不懂他的动机。这件事我一直没跟他提过，直到现在才说出来。

And I was like, there he goes again. What's going on here? So I don't know if he thought he was doing something to speed the game along or if he just it just felt good to cheat for him. I don't know what he was thinking. I never talked to him about it or never said anything about it until this moment.

这是我第一次谈起这件事。估计他也不会听到，但如果他正在听——迈克，老实交代吧，到底怎么回事？

This is the first time I talked about it. So I don't think he listens, but if he does, Mike, go ahead and, fess up. Tell us what that was all about.

在回答我自己的问题前，我得先回应亚当刚才的观点。怎么会有人在合作游戏里作弊？就算要作弊也该团队协作啊，比如大家商量说'我们多拿点资源加快游戏进度'之类的。单独作弊简直匪夷所思。

Before I answer the question for myself, I need to address the point that Adam just made. Why would anybody cheat at a co op game? Or Or at least if you're gonna cheat, cheat together, say, you know, why don't we just do this thing because we want to shorten the game or whatever. So let's, let's take a couple of extra resources. I, that is almost mind boggling.

很离谱对吧？

It's weird, right?

话说回来，我自己嘛...没错，我经常作弊。你们居然没发现才让我惊讶呢——每次一起玩游戏我都在作弊。开个玩笑，你们懂的。

Anyway, I mean, me, yes, I cheat routinely. I'm shocked you guys haven't actually noticed it yet. I'm always cheating when we play games together. Just kidding. I know.

实际上，我从未...你为什么

Actually, I have never Why do you

一直输呢，克里斯？我不明白。你明明很擅长

keep losing then, Chris? I don't understand. You're good

这个。我不擅长耍花招或作弊。不，我从未见过有人故意作弊，如果有人这么做我会很震惊。我是说，可能我还没遇到过。

at it. I'm not good at playing or cheating. No. I have not witnessed intentional cheating and I would be shocked if somebody did. I mean and maybe I haven't.

我没注意到这种情况。不过，对我来说绝对是拒绝的。

I haven't noticed it. But, yeah, straight no for me.

我在这个调查问题中使用‘桌面游戏’而非‘棋盘游戏’这个词的原因是，唯一一次我明确遇到作弊是在参加竞技万智牌比赛时。幸运的是，我认为在棋盘游戏中没遇到过有人故意作弊。这是个好消息。但在万智牌比赛中，当涉及实际利益时——比如锦标赛中有奖金、奖励等——情况就不同了。

The reason I use the word tabletop games instead of board games in this poll question is because the only time I definitely experienced it was when I was playing competitive magic the gathering. Luckily, I don't think that I've experienced anyone intentionally cheating in board games. That's great news. But in magic gathering where there's actually something at stake, you know, in a tournament, there's money at stake. There's, you know, rewards.

还有排名之类的东西。人们经常这么做。我曾亲眼目睹有人坐在桌边作弊——不知道你们对万智牌了解多少（我知道你不熟），那是在早期还没普及牌套的年代，人们直接用卡牌玩。

There's there's ranking and stuff like that. They people do it all the time. And I blatantly watch people sitting at a table. I watched a guy I don't know if you guys know magic the gathering that well. I I know you don't, but this was back in the kind of presleeve days where people were just playing with a deck of cards.

那是个现开赛对吧？比赛中使用最频繁的是地牌，你会不断轮换使用它们。所以那些牌会有轻微磨损痕迹——你知道的，边缘会有点发毛。

It was sealed tournament. Right? And so the the card you use the most in that tournament is a land, and you're always kinda rotating the land. So there's a little bit of a of a a change to those cards. Like, they're they're kind of, you know, rubbed a little bit more.

我在一场锦标赛上看到这家伙的操作。按规定你应该切对手的牌堆。就是他们洗牌后，你可以自己再洗，或者从顶部取一部分叠放，让对方无法操控自己的牌序。我看到有个家伙逐张检查牌面，硬是分出两叠不同的牌堆，花了得有十分钟。这可是正式比赛，我就坐在他旁边。

So I watched this guy in a tournament. You're supposed to cut your opponent's stack. You're supposed to, like they shuffle, and then you can, like, you can shuffle it yourself or you can take one part off the top and stack it so that they can't stack their own deck. I watched one guy look at every card and basically create two different piles, and it took, like, ten minutes. I'm I'm sitting right next to him in a competitive tournament.

我亲眼目睹旁边这家伙切牌时，逐张查看牌背，把地牌和非地牌分成两堆。然后他把所有地牌叠在非地牌上面，递给被切牌的对手，对方立刻叫来了裁判。我全程目睹，知道这人在作弊。裁判过来后——

I watched a guy next to me literally while he's cutting the deck, look at every card on the back of the deck, take and create one pile that he thinks are the land cards in one card one pile that are the nonland cards. And he stacks all the land cards on top of the land on top of the nonland cards that he presents it to the person that he was cutting for, and that guy immediately calls the judge over. And I watched this happen. So I knew that the guy was cheating. So the judge comes over.

被作弊的玩家说明情况，裁判表示：'好，让我看看。如果接下来几张都是地牌，那肯定是作弊'。结果分毫不差——他明目张胆地作弊成功了。

The the the guy who was being cheated on explains the story, and the judge says, okay. Well, let me look. If it if the next couple cards are land cards, then it's definitely cheating. And it was literally he had gotten everyone right. He had he had so blatantly cheated.

只要没人敢举报，他就能逍遥法外。他差点就让对手拿到一堆完全用不了的牌组。总之我在《万智牌》比赛里见过这种把戏，还见过其他作弊手段，我自己也被人坑过——不过是在别的卡牌游戏里。

All it took was for somebody to not wanna speak up, and then he would have gotten away with it. He would have presented his opponent with a deck full of cards that he couldn't do anything with. So, anyway, I've seen that happen in Magic Game. I've seen lots of other cheating. I've I've been cheated on as well, not in any other card games.

有个好消息：我们在Patreon、Discord和BlueSky上收到的故事大多是关于小孩作弊，毕竟这是常见现象。就像他们前额叶皮层还没发育完全，缺乏'我不该这么做'的抑制力。这类故事特别多。

Good news there. Most of the stories we got on our Patreon and Discord and and Blue Sky about this mostly had to do with kids cheating because that's, you know, that's a that's a common thing. It's kinda like their their prefrontal cortex hasn't developed fully the inhibition to kinda say, like, it's not like, I shouldn't do that. It's a bad thing. So lots of stories about that.

你们真该去看看那些投稿，有些特别搞笑。既然说到作弊，咱们聊聊竞技性——毕竟这才是作弊的根本动机对吧？让我们深入探讨。

You should go check those out. Some pretty funny stories out there. Well, related to cheating, let's talk about competition because that's the whole reason why somebody would cheat in the first place. Right? Let's get into it.

今晚这期节目，我要尽力模仿前十名的风格，主导关于竞争意识和竞技精神的讨论。这对我而言是个重要话题，尤其观察孩子们互动后更引发深思。我家有两个十岁孩子（一个是她带来的）、一个九岁和一个四岁的共同孩子。过去五六年里，我看着两个大孩子如何处理冲突，而那个最好胜的四岁小家伙如何在其中找到定位。只要是我们擅长的领域，莎拉和我都努力引导他们健康竞争——比如尝试让他们合作（效果时好时坏），教他们如何借鉴彼此创意而非敌视，有时就放手让他们自己解决。

So, yeah, tonight's episode, I'm gonna try to do my best 10 impression and take the reins and lead us through this topic of competition and competitiveness. This is an important topic to me and something that's made me introspective, especially after seeing the interaction between my kids. I have two ten year olds, one's hers, one nine, and a four year old that's ours together. So over the past five to six years, I've seen how the older two, we'll say, come to terms with different aspects of conflict, and how the youngest, who is maybe the most competitive, finds her place in the mix. When it's within our skill sets, Sarah and I try to focus their competitiveness in healthy ways, whether it'd be trying to get them to work together, which is hit or miss, showing them how they can build on each other's ideas rather than resent them, or occasionally just seeing how they work it out.

考虑到这一点，我认为我们小组已经达到了一个合理的竞争平衡点，我觉得探讨这个话题会很有趣。所以我为大家准备了一些问题。我们将开启这次‘治疗会话’，听听大家对竞争这一主题的总体看法。

With that in mind, I think our group has reached a reasonable balance of competitiveness, and I thought it'd be interesting to examine. So I've prepared some questions for you guys. We'll open up the therapy session and get your general thoughts on the topic of competitiveness.

关于竞争的总体看法，我认为竞争可以很有趣。它能驱动目标。这也是我更喜欢竞技游戏而非合作游戏的原因之一——当有一个真实目标让我去奋斗，并且是在他人能力的背景下实现时，我觉得很有意思。在任何情境下证明自己都令人兴奋，哪怕是在桌游这种纯粹调动资源的‘学霸式’脑力活动中。虽然不需要展示身体优势或领导力，但努力成为桌上最厉害的人依然充满乐趣。

Well, general thoughts on competitiveness is I think that competition can be fun. It can drive a purpose. This is one of the reasons why I actually like competitive games over cooperative games because I feel like when there's a real goal that I am getting to strive for and do it in the context of somebody else's capabilities, it's fun to me. It's exciting to be able to prove myself in whatever context, even if it's in the very slight brainiac mentality of a board game where all you're doing is pushing resources around. There's nothing like, I'm not showing any physical prowess or alpha, you know, like like, capabilities there, but it's still fun to try to be the best person at the table.

这就是我对竞争的看法——在健康正常的环境中探索竞争是令人愉悦的。

That's what I think about competition is that it's enjoyable to explore it in a healthy in a healthy and and normal, situation.

对我来说，竞争是桌游中大部分乐趣的源泉。当然要说明的是，桌游还有很多其他值得探索的方面。我们都欣赏优秀桌游的艺术设计，享受那些让你感觉机智的巧妙机制，或是视觉上的愉悦。但核心乐趣确实来自竞争。

For me, competition is the source of, you know, most of the joy in board games. I will caveat that with, you know, there's a lot of other to explore as well. We all enjoy the art in a good board game. We all enjoy when there's fun mechanisms or something that makes you feel clever or, you know, is enjoyable to look at. But really a lot of it comes down to the competition.

说这话时，我是像Tim那样更偏爱竞技游戏而非合作游戏的玩家。所以其他人可能有完全不同的答案。竞争确实是整个体验的核心。研究这些概念、思考什么能营造健康的竞争感非常有趣——什么会破坏平衡，什么机制有效，什么体验良好，什么不尽人意。

And I'm saying that from the perspective of somebody who like Tim really prefers competitive games rather than cooperative games. So someone else might have a very different answer to this. Competition really is at the heart of the whole thing. It was really interesting looking at these ideas and thinking about what actually creates a healthy sense of competition. What, you know, what makes things unhealthy, what makes it, what works, what feels good, what doesn't.

总体而言，如果大多数游戏缺乏健康的竞争感，对我来说趣味性就会大打折扣。因此我更喜欢竞技类游戏而非合作类游戏。

I think overall, if you don't have a healthy sense of competition in most games, they're just not nearly as fun to me. Hence, my preference for for competitive games rather than rather than cooperative ones.

同意。对我来说这就像磨刀石——我能看到你们的策略，也清楚自己可以如何精进。我喜欢观察解题的不同方式，看你们如何处理，并从中寻找自我提升的空间。

Agreed. Agreed. It's for me, it's sort of this this sharpening of swords. You know, I can sort of see the things that you guys are doing and the things that I can do better. So I like seeing ways to solve puzzles and how you guys do that and how I can look for ways to improve myself.

某种程度上，思维的磨砺是我享受的部分，不过这点我们稍后再深入。我这里准备了一些问题，看看能否引出更多内容。克里斯，你刚才提到了这点。我的第一个问题是：是什么造就了健康的竞争？在健康的竞争环境中，你们会做些什么或关注哪些方面？

Kind of a a mental sharpening is a part that I enjoy, but we'll get more into that. I got some questions here, so we'll see if more of this comes out. So you alluded to it, Chris. My first question is what creates healthy competitions? What are some things you guys do or look for in a healthy competition environment?

我认为有几个关键点。首先是信任。要确信围坐在桌边的其他人也怀着良性的竞争心态。大家参与都是为了享受乐趣并证明自己，但同时也懂得分寸。确实存在恶性的竞争。

I think there's a couple things. One is trust. Know the people around the table are also competitive in a good spirited way. You're all in it to have a good time and kind of prove yourself, but also, you know, not overtly. There's there's definitely negative competition.

有些负面特质可能会出现。我认为健康竞争另一个重要因素是某种程度上的平等性。比如，如果我坐在几个四岁孩子中间比赛，这对我来说就不算健康竞争——我若全力以赴会伤害他们的感情，这根本不像是在玩游戏。即便在成年人之间，有时也会存在技能水平悬殊的情况。

There's there's negative traits that can happen. Another thing that I think that's important for healthy competition is equality in a way, in a to an extent, meaning that, like, if I'm sitting at a table with a few four year olds, that's not really healthy competition for me. I can't really play to the best of my ability without just hurting their feelings or, you know, it doesn't feel like a game at all. So that's not healthy competition. And I think even among adults, sometimes you can have people that have more of a skill, more of a capability in some games and then other people that don't have the same level of skill.

这样的竞争就失去了健康竞争应有的刺激与乐趣，因为感觉像是存在不公平的失衡。这些就是我认为从竞争角度而言体现健康特质的要素。

And so it doesn't feel like the excitement or fun of a of a healthy competition because it kind of feels like you've got an unfair balance there. So those are some things that I think are, to me, say healthy from a competition perspective.

这个问题让我非常着迷。我花了过多时间来思考这个问题，因为我知道自己有时对参与的竞争感觉很健康，有时则不然。这涉及两个层面的因素：一是你内心的想法，二是你如何影响他人的想法。首先我认为，参赛者带入游戏的态度几乎是个不可变量，它会造成天壤之别。

So I was absolutely fascinated by this question. And so I put probably a lot more time and thought into thinking through this than I should have because I know that I have times when I feel very healthy about the competition I'm involved in and times when I feel less healthy about it. And there are two sort of factors to it. One is what's going on in your head and what are you making happen in other people's heads. And so to start with, I think that there is an element of it that is almost immutable, that the person's attitude that they bring to a game is gonna make a huge difference.

亚当，你讲的故事就是个完美例证。有人在玩合作游戏时居然还选择作弊，这明显是过度竞争的表现，甚至可以说是病态竞争。蒂姆，你提到的那些作弊案例也说明，这种行为似乎根植于他们的性格或世界观中。如果你本身就是容易陷入病态竞争的人——当然这个术语我用得很宽松，毕竟我不是心理专家——这可能是你难以改变的特质。

And I think the story that you told, Adam, is a perfect example. I mean, somebody's playing a cooperative game and yet still, you know, saw fit to cheat. I mean, that's, you know, clearly somebody who is really, really competitive and I would say to the point of being unhealthily competitive. And I think, you know, Tim, the same thing you were saying, you know, examples, all these examples of people that would actually cheat, you cut you kind of get the sense that that is built into their character or built into the way that they look at the world, way they look at the way the games that they play. And so if you're someone who is prone to being unhealthily competitive, and again, using this term very loosely, I mean, I'm, you know, not a psychiatrist, not a psychologist, but you know, this is all just kind of my take on things.

对于那些容易产生过度竞争心态，甚至可能导致作弊行为的人，能做的改变确实有限。不过我认为存在方法可以鼓励更健康的竞争程度，让处于中间状态的人——甚至潜在作弊者——减少作弊动机。我们尝试过的一个明显方法是：除胜利本身外取消所有奖励。我们逐步取消了奖杯、吹嘘权等外在激励。

That if you're someone who is prone to that kind of competitive spirit, that's really the overly competitive, the kind of might lead the cheating, then, you know, there's probably not a ton that you can really do about that. So I think that the the the mindset's gonna be one thing. However, there are ways to, I think, encourage a more healthy level of competition so that, you know, the folks that are somewhere in the middle or even the ones who might be prone to cheating are maybe a little less incentivized to do it. And one that's kind of obvious and we've explored a little bit ourselves is removing rewards other than the win itself. So we went through that process where we kind of pulled, you know, the the awards that we had, the trophies and the bragging rights and all that.

因为显然，获胜就能得到奖励会激励你不惜一切代价去赢，尤其是对那些本来就不太愿意遵守规则的人来说。另一个因素是友谊。虽然我觉得这和信任没太大区别，但如果你是和朋友们一起玩，和那些你认识并关心长期关系的人在一起，你可能会更享受游戏过程，更可能表现出良好的体育精神。这也是很重要的一部分——良好的体育精神。我是说，体育精神这个概念历史悠久，意义重大。

Because clearly having something that you get for winning incentivizes you to win at any cost, especially if you're somebody who's not likely to, you know, wanna play by the rules anyway. Another one is is friendship. And I don't think this is that different than trust, but I feel like if you are playing with friends, people that you know, and people who you care about the long term relationship, then you're probably incentivized to be more enjoyable around the table, more, you know, you're more likely to exhibit good sportsmanship. And that's another part of it too, is that good sportsmanship. I mean, talk about, you know, just old as the hills, the concept of sportsmanship is huge.

所以如果你是个会因为走了一步好棋就对我趾高气扬的人，那我可能就不太享受游戏时光了。但如果你对我表现出尊重和友善，看起来是在享受游戏而不是非要打败我，那我会玩得更开心。我有个小故事可以说明这点。有几次我和儿子玩游戏时，我对游戏很熟悉而他不太了解，当然他也比我小很多。我会故意在他面前嘚瑟，用我觉得搞笑的方式，就像个傻老爸那样。

So if you're someone who is, you know, going to get in my face because you made a good move, then, you know, maybe I'm, I'm less likely to be enjoying my time around the table. But if you act respectfully to me and if you act pleasantly to me and if you seem like you're having fun rather than trying to kick my butt, I'm gonna have a better time. I actually have a little story to tell on this one. I've played with my son a few times in games where, you know, I knew a game and he didn't necessarily know it and he's, of course, you know, much younger than I am. And I would kind of get all up in his face, but in what I thought was kind of a funny way, you know, kind of, this is dad being goofy.

但他并不这么觉得。现在回想起来我能理解，当你输掉游戏时，有人在你面前耀武扬威确实不好受。同理，即使你从未玩过某个游戏，纯粹靠运气赢了，每个人都喜欢赢。所以当有人体育精神不佳时，哪怕他们只是闹着玩，别人也可能不这么认为。

But he didn't see it that way. And I can, in retrospect, see that. And I'm like, oh, you know, it probably if you're losing a game, it probably doesn't feel good to have somebody getting up in your face about it. Same way that even if you never played a game before and you just win purely through luck, everybody loves to win a game. So why would it not also stand a reason that someone who is being a bad sport, even if they're doing it for fun, it might not be received that way.

所以关于这个问题我絮絮叨叨说了一大堆，希望其中有些内容是有道理的。

So there was a bunch of rambling answers to that one. Hopefully, some of those made a little bit of sense.

克里斯，我能插句话吗？我大概明白你说的那种在儿子输游戏时当面调侃他的做法。我们之间也是这样善意互嘲的，当有人运气不好或决策失误时，我们觉得这样互开玩笑很有意思。

Can I just really quickly, Chris, though, jump in there? And I I I think I get what you're saying about the way that you kinda gotten your son's face about just kinda, like, trash talk him or whatever when he is losing. But that's the way that we as in a in a good natured friendly way trash talk each other, and we have a good time when somebody's kinda, like, at the short end of the like, maybe they had some bad luck. Maybe they made a bad choice. But it's fun for us to trash talk each other.

是啊，但有趣的是，不仅是你儿子或孩子们难以接受这点。我发现不同群体对这种玩笑的接受度确实不同。比如你们嘲笑我犯蠢时，我觉得特别好笑。

Yeah. But interestingly, it's not just your son or even kids that struggle with that. I've actually found repeatedly that different groups don't find the same joy in that that I do or that you guys do. You know? I love it when you guys trash talk me when I make a dumb mistake, and then you, like, harass me about it or make fun of me about it.

这种调侃对我来说很有趣。但我意识到很多成年人其实并不觉得这好玩。谁知道呢？也许是过往经历使然，也可能因为他们和我不够熟。

Like, that's funny to me. But what I've realized is that there's a lot of adults that actually don't find that fun. And maybe who knows? Maybe it's past experience. Maybe it's because they don't know me as well.

所以他们没意识到这是个玩笑。他们觉得，你知道，他们认为这是恶意，但其实根本不是恶意。明白吗？所以这挺有意思的。我觉得需要谨慎对待，尤其是当你欢迎新人加入团队时，你与常规游戏伙伴的互动方式可能需要重新考虑下，对不太熟悉的人要调整下相处模式。

So they don't they don't realize that it's a joke. They think, you know, they think it's meanness, but it's not meanness at all. You know? So it's it is interesting. It's just something to be cautious about, I think, as as people especially if you're welcoming other people into your group, the the way that you interact with your your normal game group may you wanna maybe think rethink that a little bit with how you interact with people you don't know as well.

提姆，这个观点非常棒。如果要把这个总结成要点，就像我之前说的那些，我会说‘了解你的听众’。如果是对能接受玩笑的朋友，比如我知道你们能接得住我们的垃圾话，我也能接得住。但就像你说的，不是所有人都能接受。

That's a really great point, Tim. And I actually to turn that into a bullet point, kind of the way that was with my other ones, I would say it's know your audience. Yeah. If you have friends that you know can handle it, like I know you guys can handle it when we trash talk and you know I can handle it. You know, I think so I think we do that a lot, but not everybody does, like you said.

所以如果你要和不太熟悉、不确定对方反应的人一起玩，相处时就要更礼貌些。这样可以避免问题。也许在游戏过程中你会发现他们其实喜欢一点垃圾话，或者完全不喜欢。

And and so if you're gonna be in a situation where you're playing with people that you don't know that well and you don't know how they're gonna react, be a little bit more courteous about it when you're playing with them. In that way, you avoid any problems. And then, you know, maybe you'll learn over the course of the game that they they do like a little trash talk or maybe they just really don't.

你们提出的观点很有意思。提姆谈到游戏团队和信任，这个主题贯穿始终。有个互相试探的阶段对吧？

You guys bring up some interesting points. Tim's, you're talking about game groups and trust. That theme kinda echoed throughout. There's that feeling out period. Right?

当你刚开始接触新团队时，你会想：这些人觉得什么好笑？什么不好笑？探索这个界限很有趣——看看什么能说，什么不合适。我总喜欢试探那条线，直到可能冒犯到别人再收回来，试图保持在既有趣又不伤人的那个区间。

When you first are trying to get a new game group, you're like, what what are these guys and gals hopefully think is funny? What do they not think is funny? That's a fun exploration to see kinda what you can get away with, what's not quite appropriate. I sort of like push that line and probably until I offend somebody too much, I'll bring it back and try to stay in that zone of the inoffensive but slightly funny and goofy zone is is what I look for. Yeah.

这让我对参加聚会感到焦虑。要见陌生人——他们觉得什么好笑？什么会冒犯到人？很可能会踩雷。

So that can bring a lot of the anxiety for me of going to, like, meetups. You're gonna meet with these strange people. What do they what's funny to them? What's not am I gonna offend somebody? Probably.

我会尽量注意，但希望对方能宽容些，稍微包涵下。提姆你还提到和四岁小孩玩游戏，他们肯定会作弊什么的。我和四岁小女儿玩时，目标必须转变——当然不是要赢她，而是要让游戏变得有趣。

I'm gonna try my best not to, but hopefully, they're kind enough to take it with a grain of salt and, you know, maybe some mild forgiveness there. You also talked about, Tim, playing games with four year olds, young kids that, you know, they're gonna cheat, you know, they're do this, you know, that. For me, when I'm trying to play a game with my youngest, she's four, I have to shift the goal. So, of course, I'm not trying to win and kick the crap out of my four year old. This goal has to be make it fun.

也许她能理解。我可以让她掌握一两个概念，让游戏对她来说充满乐趣，这样她就能享受其中并愿意回来寻找游戏的快乐。所以对于孩子们，我只是尽量让游戏变得有趣，如果可能的话，还会教他们一些棋盘游戏的礼仪和尊重。否则，就尽量让游戏变得有趣、轻松，让这段经历成为美好时光。然后，克里斯，你提到了塞多纳大会，那差不多是我们最后的几次活动了，我对此有个小观点。

Maybe she can grasp. I can get her to grasp one or two of the concepts, make the game fun for her so she has an enjoyable time and wanna come back and find that joy in gaming. So with the kids, I just try to make it fun and, you know, teach them a little bit of respect and etiquette of board game if I can. Otherwise, you know, just try to make it fun and silly and make the experience a good time. And then, Chris, you talked about the SedonaCon it was was kind of our last ones, and I had a little point about that.

我稍后会提到。但我觉得蒂姆在这方面做得很好。他试图为竞争找到动力，某种程度上推动我们在节目中表现得更好。我认为这是蒂姆一直在努力的方向——我们如何改进？

I'll bring up later. But I think Tim is really good at this. He tries to find motivation for competition, and he sort of pushes us to do better and be better on the show. And that's one thing that I think Tim is always looking to do. How can we improve?

所以他会尝试一些激励措施，并经常进行测试。我很感激这一点。有时奏效，有时我们不得不承认，这未必有效。所以我们需要调整什么是健康的竞争。总之，这是个有趣的话题，我又给出了一个漫无边际的回答，但我觉得这确实很吸引人。

So he'll try some things to motivate, and he'll test around with that a lot. And I appreciate it. Sometimes it works, and sometimes we gotta be like, oh, this isn't necessarily working. So we gotta fine tune what's healthy competitive. Anyway, interesting topic, another rambling answer for me, but I think that's just a fascinating one.

接下来是我们的竞争意识如何随时间演变？简单来说，我觉得小时候参加很多体育运动时，我给自己施加了很大压力。我想表现好，想赢。

Next up is how has our competitiveness evolved over time? Real quick, you know, I think, again, when I was a kid, I played a lot of sports. And I put a lot of pressure on myself. Wanted to do good. I wanted to win.

这很难，尤其是网球。我小时候打网球，参加过一些比赛。我想赢，想表现好，但结果很挫败。

And it can be hard, especially tennis. I played tennis and played some tournaments growing up. And I wanna win. I wanna do good. And it was demoralizing.

我去参加12岁组的网球比赛，结果里面有个7岁的小孩。我想我能赢他，结果被他打得落花流水。那种求胜心切却遭遇失败的感觉真的很沮丧，让人泄气。

I'd go and I'd play, like, a 12 tennis tournament, and some seven year old would be in there. And I'd like, I can beat this. And then he kicks the crap out of me. So it's you know, I wanna win so bad, and it's just frustrating when you get that loss. It can be discouraging.

所以我试着调整自己的期望，寻找即使不赢得比赛也能享受乐趣的方式。同时我也对他人抱有同理心——也许他们处境相同。因此我尽量体谅这一点。每当认识新朋友或玩新桌游时，我总会想着如何保持敏感并促进这种良性竞争，这是随着年龄增长我越来越意识到的一点。

So I've tried to tamper my own expectations and try to look for ways that I can enjoy even if I don't necessarily win the competition or win the game or win the whatever. And then I have empathy for others. You know, maybe they're in the same boat. So I try to be sensitive to that. That's always in the back of my mind when I meet somebody or when I'm playing a new board game is how can I be sensitive and promote this healthy competition, something I become more aware of as I've aged?

那么我们的竞争性是如何随时间演变的呢？我认为一个很好的起点是，当我们所有人聚在一起玩游戏的时候。我是说，那是在2020年疫情刚开始时，我们在线聚在一起玩桌游模拟器上的点击操作游戏。当时我们很在乎输赢，因为那种形式很特别。

So how has our competitiveness evolved over time? I think a great benchmark to start with is, like, when we all got together and we're playing. I mean, this was 2020 right when COVID starts and we're getting together online and playing. And we're just playing kind of click and run on tabletop simulator. And we cared about winning because it's such a weird format there.

谁知道是不是因为我没看清桌对面的情况就搞砸了。所以从那里很难判断。但我要告诉你们的是，你们都提到了我们过去线下聚会时的联赛积分。我们最终取消了联赛积分，因为它可能引发了一些不健康的心态。但我不确定我们是否真有必要那么做。

Who knows if I just messed up because I didn't see what was across the table or whatever. So it's hard to to gauge from there. But what I will tell you is that you guys both brought up our past league scoring at our, get togethers, our in person get togethers. We ended up removing the league scoring because it was creating some maybe unhealthy attitudes. But I'm not sure that we needed to do that.

我是说，我们确实那么做了，这没问题。这么做是好的。但我们每个人本可以采取更健康的态度对待这种竞争，告诉自己：你知道吗？其实没什么大不了的。又不是在赌钱。

I mean, we did do it, and that's okay. It's good that we did it. But it's also possible that we individually could have taken a different like, a healthier stance on that competition and said, you know what? There's not really anything at stake. It's not like there's money.

又不是说我的生计受到威胁。所以尽管有奖杯什么的，如果我为此感到不爽，完全可以退一步说：好吧，其实这没那么重要。我们就是图个乐子，这也是我努力做到的。

It's not like there's like, my livelihood is at stake here. So even though there's a trophy or whatever, if I'm feeling bad about this, I could kinda step back and say, okay. You know what? This doesn't matter that much. Let's just have fun with it, which is what I what I tried to do.

不是说我一直都能做到。上周我玩《科学怪人时代》时——这不是个严肃的游戏，运气成分很大。

I'm not saying that I always did. I had a game this last week. I was playing, abomination, the era of Frankenstein with some friends. This is not a serious game. It's fairly luck based.

虽然是德式游戏，但更注重主题而非严谨策略。游戏结束时，我很久以来第一次遇到骰运极差的情况——最后一轮骰子点数直接让我输了5分。倒不是说我很生气，但我记得自己当时确实有点'唉，要是...'的心态。

It's a euro game, but it's more thematic than it is, like, serious strategy. And at the end of the game, for the first time in a while, I had just a bad shake of the dice. Literally, the the dice came out poorly for me on the last round of the game. Cost me the game by, like, five points. And I wasn't I wouldn't say I was upset, but I remember just kind of, like, taking an attitude of, like, oh, man.

要是骰子那样转我就赢了。虽然这是事实，但何必说这个呢？明明没有任何利害关系。事后想想，我还是享受游戏的，只是对自己的反应感到失望。

If this had gone this way, I would have won the game. And it was true, but also why did I even need to say that? Like, I it it wasn't there was no nothing at stake there. It didn't matter. And in hindsight, I still enjoyed the game, but I more was disappointed in my own reaction.

我希望朋友们没受到太大负面影响，或者他们可能根本不在乎。但我觉得自己本可以表现得更得体些，毕竟这只是场游戏。这根本不重要。我想说的是，我们都应该意识到自己的反应对周围人的影响。现在面临什么风险或竞争？

I hope that my friends didn't get too negatively impacted, or maybe they didn't care at all. But I felt like I could have been a better sport about that because that's what the game was. It didn't matter at all. My point being that we can all internalize how our reactions are having an impact on the people around us. And what's at stake or what competition is there?

这不是重点。重点是我们如何应对。就像我说的，我过去参加过竞技魔法比赛，那里确实有些混蛋。他们没有道德底线，根本不在乎是否作弊。

That's not really the point. The point is how do we react to it. Like I said, I used to play competitive magic, and there are some real jerks out there. They don't have an a moral center. They don't care if they're cheating.

他们完全不在乎。很多人会通过恐吓或故意让人难堪来作弊——你真该看看魔法锦标赛上某些家伙是怎么对桌对面的女性说话的，基本就是故意贬低或恐吓。这些人毫无道德可言。

That doesn't bother them at all. They don't care. In many cases, they would cheat by intimidating people or by, like, intentionally making them feel bad or or least you should have seen the way that some of these guys in the magic tournament would talk to women across the table. Basically, like, intentionally trying to put them down or intimidate them. These are people without a moral center.

我知道我和朋友们不是这样的。有时候真的没必要上升到那种病态竞争的程度，关键是要意识到有些事你本不必较真，因为这本来就是为了好玩。纯粹是为了娱乐。

I know that's not the case of me and my friends and you guys. So sometimes it's just like, it's not about that level of, of, you know, of of unhealthy competition. It's about just realizing that sometimes you're taking things in a way that you don't need to because it's just for fun. It's just for fun.

好吧，说个尖锐的观点。蒂姆，你真觉得这现实吗？老实说，你真能像按开关一样突然改变处理方式吗？

Well, okay. Here's a hot take. Tim, do you really think that's realistic? What? Honestly, do you do you are you really able to just like flip a switch and say, you know, I'm just gonna handle this differently.

如果你真能做到，我...

If you do, I I

我并不是说总能轻松做到，但没错，我认为这是可以自我提升的。我确实这么想，因为我自己经历过——有段时间输比赛会特别沮丧，后来我就想：我到底在气什么？

Well, I'm not saying that I always do easily, but yes, I think so. I think it is something that you can work on that you can do for yourself. I really do because, like, I have gone through that. I've gone through different states where I've said at some point where I was, like, frustrated that I was losing. And then I was like, why why am I frustrated by this?

然后在下一场比赛中采取了不同的策略。我觉得就连我对联赛得分的心态也相当淡定。就像，好吧，这会很有趣。但确实，我在长滩市输掉了每一场比赛。

And then approached it differently with the next play. And I think even the way that I approached the league scoring was pretty chill about it. Like, okay. This would be fun. But, yeah, I literally lost every single game in Long Beach.

我一场都没赢过。但我并不觉得自己为此生气或沮丧。某种程度上这甚至有点好笑。所以我不确定。克里斯，我明白你的意思。

I didn't win a single game. I don't think I ever was pissed off or upset about it. It was almost funny to to an extent. So I don't know. Like, I I hear what you're saying, Chris.

面对情绪时，要瞬间转换心态并不容易。但与此同时，如果你能意识到自己正在处理负面情绪，就可以尝试去适应和接纳它们——特别是当实际上没什么利害关系的时候。

It's not easy to just flip a switch when you're dealing with emotions. But at the same time, you can if you can recognize that you're dealing with negative emotions, you can try to you can try to adapt and and accept them, especially, again, when there's nothing real at stake.

这很公平。我是说，当然，我们都可以试着更好地控制情绪。不过我得指出，你多次提到那个周末你赢的比赛屈指可数。

That that's fair. I yes. I mean, certainly, we could all control you know, try to control our emotions a little better. I will point out you did mention a lot of times how few games you'd won. That weekend.

这显然影响到了你。公平地说，这就是为什么我认为这很难做到，我自己也不确定能否成功。虽然我自认是个心理意识较强的人，但要在竞争模式和非竞争模式间切换大脑并不容易。

Did clearly impact you. Fair. But I the reason the reason why I say that's so hard, and I don't think I could do it that successfully. I think I'm a relatively psychologically aware person, but I just don't think it would be that easy to flip on my competitive brain, non competitive brain. Yeah.

因此对我来说，引入某种外部控制——比如设置奖品——会产生巨大差异。我认为这是因为在任何领域的成功（桌游就像是成功的微型试验场，你能在一个半小时里验证自己能否胜过他人）都象征着太多东西。我们不谈品格，但我们的自我价值感很大程度上源自这类成功体验。这让我想起一个古老的研究，探讨人们在游戏中如何受到自我价值心理的影响。

Which is why for me having some kind of external control, like we're going to take prizes out of it, I think makes a huge difference. And the reason for that I think is that success in almost any area and board games of course are little like little test tubes of success because you get to sit down for an hour and a half and see, can I succeed against these other people in this thing that I'm endeavoring to do? That that is a sign of so many things. I won't say character, but we we draw so much of our own self worth from things like how we're able to succeed at stuff. And so what it reminds me of is this study that I read about a long time ago, where they were looking at how people are influenced in games by the psychology of how their self worth plays out in the context of a game.

与其解释这个概念，不如直接讲个案例。这是个发表在期刊上的科学研究：研究者分组让人们玩《大富翁》——我们都同意这可能是最不依赖技巧的游戏了。

So rather than try to explain what I mean by that, I'll just give you the little bit of information about or I'll the story. This is a scientific study. It got written up in journals and stuff. They were they took groups of people and sat them down to play Monopoly. And I think we can all agree probably that Monopoly is about as unskilled based game as you can possibly have.

人们会玩大富翁游戏。然后，赢家总会谈论他们的，你知道的，他们的敏锐和聪明才智以及他们有多厉害。后来他们开始改变规则，极大地偏袒某些玩家，比如开局就有双倍资金，或者手里已经握着三四处地产。这些人在游戏中获得了巨大优势，在大富翁这类游戏中，这种优势几乎能确保胜利。然而游戏结束时，那些因特权获胜的人还是会说‘看看我多厉害’。

And people would play monopoly. And then, and the people who won would always talk about their, you know, their acumen and their their smartness and how good they were. Then they actually started changing the rules to dramatically overprivilege certain players, like, say, starting with twice as much money or starting with three or four properties in your hand in the game. These people were dramatically over advantaged in the game in ways that, you know, in a game like monopoly, especially, would pretty much, you know, guarantee you a win. And yet they still had people at the end of the game who won because they were given advantages say, well, check check me out.

‘我是不是很会玩游戏？’所以我们总是从各种竞争、成功或失败中汲取太多自我认知。要把这些抛开并不容易。回到亚当刚才的问题：它是如何随时间改变的？我们已经谈到了取消联赛积分制。

Aren't I a smart game player? So I think we just draw so much of our you know, so much of the way we see ourselves out of any kind of competition, out of any kind of success or or lack thereof. And so it's not so easy to just set that aside. Now getting back to the actual question that Adam had asked, which is how has it changed over time? You know, we've talked a little bit about removing the league scoring.

我们讨论过取消奖品，只在游戏周末记录锦标赛积分。我认为这彻底改变了我对待这些周末的方式，也极大影响了我对每周游戏之夜的看法。也许有些人能比我更好地关闭这种心态，但对我来说真的很难。

We talked about taking out the prizes and keeping track of our tournament scoring at the game weekends. I think that has made a huge change in how I approach those weekends. It makes a huge difference in how I approach the games that we play just on our weekly game nights. So maybe, maybe some people can do that better, shut that off better than I can. But for me, it was really hard.

所以这些外部改变确实帮助我很大，让我回归到我认为健康的竞争状态。

And so having those kind of external changes really helped me quite a bit in getting back to what I considered to be a healthy type of competition.

所以你的意思是赌注会导致不健康的竞争？我认为你提出了一个潜在的重要观点。

So you're saying that stakes lead to unhealthy competition. That's I think an important point that you just made out. Potentially.

赌注无疑会助长这种风气。当然也有很多人能展现良好体育精神，公平竞争，在涉及赌注时保持良好心态。但显然对大多数人来说，有赌注时比没有时更容易表现出负面行为。

They incentivize it for sure. Obviously, there are plenty of people out there who are exhibit good sportsmanship and play fairly and keep a good attitude when you're playing for some kind of stakes. But clearly, if you have stakes involved, you're more likely to exhibit some of the negative stuff than if you have no stakes involved, I think, for most people.

在我转向下一个问题前总结一下：我的部分进化方式是改变对竞争的提问角度。我会问‘这次是否尽了全力？’我知道总有人在各方面都比我强，但这次我是否做到了自己的最好？比如有个和我打网球的朋友，他水平超高，90%的时候都碾压我，但我不介意。

So to sort of sum up before I move on to the next question, some of the ways I've evolved over time is I ask different questions about competitions. I ask, did I do the best I could do? I know there's gonna be people that are better than me in every aspect of everything, but did I do the best that I could do this specific time? So there's a for instance, there's a guy I play tennis with, and he's fantastic. And he kills me 90% of the time, but I don't mind.

与他对战让我变得更强，这点我很清楚。如果想击败他并从他身上得分，我必须全力以赴。当我能与他打得旗鼓相当时，我觉得这是自己应得的。所以我们之间有种默认标准——他赢80%的对局，我赢20%。

He's making me better when I play against him. I know that. And if I wanna be able to beat him and gain some points off of him, I have to be playing my best. I feel like I've earned it when I do well against him. So I know we have this sort of standard where he wins 80% of the time, I win 20%.

如果我能把20%的胜率提升到30%，即使没赢我也会觉得自己表现不错。所以我常问自己：是否已竭尽全力？玩桌游时我也这样想。在某些特定游戏里，我可能完全不是你们的对手，连接近胜利都做不到。

And I can if if I can up that 20% to 30%, then I know I did well even though I didn't win. So did I do the best I could do? Same, I play that to board games as well. Did I do sometimes I'm not gonna have a chance against you guys at these certain games distilled. I can't even come close.

但我依然全力以赴。于是我会换个角度自问：是否已做到最好？是否发现了游戏里有趣的新东西？比如某个边缘案例，或是你们还没见过的奇特策略。

I'm trying my best. So I ask another different question. Did I do the best I could do? And did I discover something interesting about the game? Some new edge case, some weird strategy maybe you guys haven't seen yet.

快看这个操作！像这样——如果能揭示游戏的新玩法，或是发现某个精妙的变招策略、古怪的边缘案例，我都会视作胜利。我正学着用不同方式定义胜利，这样即使输掉比赛，也能以积极心态面对。这算是我这些年来的一个转变吧。

Oh, check this out. You could do this. So if I can shed some new light on a game or find some new little twist or strategy or funky edge case, I consider those all victories. So I try to find victories in a different way that I can still come away from the game or the event or whatever competition in a positive way. I think that's one way I've shifted over time.

对我来说这种心态很健康。下一个问题：不同游戏会激发你不同类型的竞争心吗？我猜应该是会的。

And that to me, that feels pretty healthy. Next question. How do different games elicit a different type of competitiveness in you? If they do, I assume they do.

我不确定自己是否如此。不过我想...或许有一点可以说——

I don't know that that's the case for me necessarily. I suppose well, I I think the the one thing that I would say is

让我这样问：欧式策略游戏和区域控制游戏，玩这两类游戏时你的竞争心态会不同吗？

Let me ask you this. Euro style games versus area control games. Do those different do you get a different sense of competition when you're playing those games?

是的，确实如此。我在玩区域控制类游戏时更容易表现出糟糕的体育精神，因为我觉得自己并不一定能掌控局面，尤其是在非双人游戏中。对吧？当有三四个玩家时，其他玩家做出的决策都可能影响我的成败。而在欧式策略游戏中，我的成功更多取决于自己的决策而非周围人的行动。

Yes. I do. I I get more bad sportsmanship when I'm playing area control games because because I feel like I don't necessarily have control, especially when it's not a two player game. Right? It's like a three or four people, and decisions that multiple other players could be making could have an impact on my ability to succeed versus in a euro style game, more likely my success has to do with what I've done versus what everybody else is doing around me.

所以在某种程度上，我确实会更容易恼火。不过话说回来，这可能也是我成长的地方——现在这些已经不会真正困扰我了。我接受了四人高强度控制游戏中存在某种不可控随机性的事实。亚当，我正想说，对于随机性高的游戏我通常感觉更好——当然除了之前提到的《憎恶》那款游戏。

So in a way, I do feel like I get a little bit saltier. And, again, this is this maybe this is an area where I've evolved because it doesn't really bug me anymore. I just accept the fact that in a four player very controlled game, it's kind of almost a level of randomness you have no control over. And that's what I was about to say, Adam, is that games that have a high level of randomness, I generally feel better about. Except well, again, I talked about abomination.

现实情况是，《憎恶》在某种程度上是款高度策略性的游戏。正因如此才令人沮丧——我明明可以精心规划整个游戏、做出明智决策，但最终成败却由完全非策略性的因素决定。相比之下，太空类游戏就是高随机性的典型例子。我超爱玩太空游戏，根本不在乎输赢。

And the the reality is that that game is a highly strategic game to a point. And then that was frustrating because, like, I could do everything I could to plan the whole game and try to make smart decisions, but then my success got dictated by some things that were not strategic at all. When the game has a lot of randomness, in general, space space is a great example. I love playing space space. I could care less whether I win that game.

我总是会尝试制造乐趣，购买能带来趣味选择的道具，期待骰子能掷出好结果。但即使输了，也从不怀疑自己的策略水平，因为很可能胜负与策略无关。现在我觉得区域控制类游戏也给我类似感受。以前会因为被针对或失控而生气，现在只觉得像是骰子带来的随机性。但在欧式游戏中输了，那绝对是我的问题。

I am always gonna try to make some fun, buy the right things that will make some fun choices, and root for when the right dice get rolled. But if I don't win, I never feel anything about my value as a strategic player because I know that it had nothing to do with that most likely. And I think area control games generally are feeling like that too. I used to just get really upset because people picking on you or frustration that I didn't have control, but now it just feels more like the level of randomness that dice give you. In a euro, though, that feels like if I lose, it's on me.

所以...我也不确定。我到底有没有回答那个问题啊？

So I don't know. What did what did did I answer that question at all?

我觉得没有。可能算暗示了答案？那么假设《日蚀》举办全球锦标赛，如果相同玩家年复一年名列前茅，这会改变你对这类游戏的看法吗？如果能证明不是靠运气的话？

I don't think so. Maybe. You're hinting at an answer to that question, but so would it change your opinion if, say, there was eclipse tournaments worldwide and the same players finished at the top of the rankings year after year after year? Would that change how you thought about these games? If it could be proven that it wasn't luck.

当然会。《日蚀》其实是个糟糕的例子，因为它100%靠运气。这就好比说太空游戏...

Yeah. For sure. Eclipse is a terrible example because that's a 100% luck based. That's like saying that space space is.

拜托，老兄。

Come on, man.

不。但这是个很好的例子。克里斯过去曾谈到过《星际领域》，说即使是世界顶尖玩家也只能赢大约60%的对局，即便对手是随机匹配的。所以当你输掉单场比赛时不必太沮丧。我当年竞技性玩《万智牌》时深受启发，因为总是那20个人能持续获胜。

No. But a but a good example. Chris has talked about star realms in the past, how star realms is like even the best players in the world only win, like, 60 purse or, yeah, 60% of their games or something like that, even against random people. So you can't feel too bad when you lose an individual match on that. Magic the Gathering was a great eye opener for me when I used to play competitively because the same 20 people would consistently win.

即使在限制赛中使用随机卡池，他们依然能赢。你会意识到这其中存在成长空间。即便感觉像运气，但并非全靠运气。

Even in limited tournaments where they had a random pool of cards they were playing with, they could still win. You learn that there is actually a growth that comes there. It's not all luck even when it feels like it's luck

确实。

Sure.

某种程度上是的。你会找到降低运气影响的方法。是的亚当，老实回答你的问题：没错。如果顶尖《Eclipse》玩家总能获胜，那就说明这不是运气游戏。

To an extent. And you you find ways to mitigate the luck. Yes, Adam. To answer your question honestly, yes. If if it was clear that the best Eclipse players could always win, so it's not luck based.

这是真实的选择博弈。我其实知道事实如此，只是我恰好是个特别糟糕的《Eclipse》玩家。

It's it's true choices. And I actually know that that's the case. I just happen to be a particularly bad Eclipse player.

明白了。好的。我就是想听你亲口承认这点。谢谢。

Gotcha. Okay. I just wanted to hear you admit that. Thank you.

首先我想赞同Tim关于游戏类型的观点，区域控制类游戏确实有其独特之处。对我来说，这类游戏的关键不在于随机性，而在于其攻击性。它们会激发我更激进的态度，这意味着竞争性更强，当有人主动攻击并淘汰你时，也会产生更多不快。如果这种淘汰是以非常随机的方式发生的，那感觉确实不好。但我对这个问题的思考角度略有不同，不是比较区域控制与欧式游戏类型，而是更多考虑游戏的其他方面。

Well, I I wanna agree first with something that Tim said about the types of games that there is something about area control, and I don't think for me it has to do with randomness. It has to do with the aggressiveness of them. That they definitely elicit in me a more aggressive stance, which means probably a little bit more competitive stance and a little bit more hard feelings when somebody comes and you actively attacks you and knocks you out. And it certainly doesn't feel good if that's done in a very random way. But I approached this question a little bit differently instead of types of games like area control versus Euro, I thought more about other aspects of a game.

我很高兴Tim提到《星际领域》，Tim，我想问你：当你输给我一局《星际领域》时，你是什么感受？

And I'm glad that Tim brought up star realms because, Tim, I'd like to ask you. So when you lose a game of star realms against me, how do you feel about it?

大多数时候还好。但有些对局确实感觉输得非常随机，这种失败其实比其他任何情况都更让人难受。比如当我明明有很强的牌组，却在最后一回合偏偏抽到了牌库里仅剩的五张初始牌，那感觉糟透了。这就是我的感受。这样回答你的问题了吗，Chris？

Well, most of the time, okay. But there are definitely games where it feels like it was a very random loss, and that actually is more painful than anything else. When I know that I have a great deck, but I just happen to draw the only five starter cards left in my deck in the last turn of the game, that sucks. That's how I feel about it. But does that answer your question, Chris?

主要就是这种情况，只有这种时候会让我特别恼火。

Like, that mainly, that's the only time I'm pissed.

那如果我连续赢你五局呢？你会有什么感觉？

What if what if I win five games in a row? How do you feel about that?

如果这些对局不像是完全靠随机运气赢的，那我就觉得还好。

If it doesn't feel like it was just, like, total random luck on those games, then I I feel okay.

好吧。

Okay.

但当我连续多次因运气不佳而输掉比赛时，那种感觉真的很痛苦。不，我是说，克里斯，你上次连续赢我五局是什么时候的事了？感觉那已经是很久以前的事了。

But when I lose to luck a bunch of times in a row, then it feels painful. No. I I mean, Chris, when's the last time you actually won five games in a row against me, though? It feels like that's been a long time.

不，并没有那么久。但我想用这个例子说明，对我来说这是有历史渊源的。所以当我儿子走过来时——比如我们正在全家一起做某件事，轮到我时他突然说‘爸爸专心点’，我就会觉得‘等等，先别打断’。

No. It hasn't been that long. But I but I but I I wanna use that to make a point that for me, there's a history. So when my son comes up to me and I'm in middle of, you know, we're doing something as a family and I'm taking a turn and and he says, dad, pay attention. I like, wait, hold on.

不，这是我和蒂姆的生死对决。我们在这方面有很长的历史渊源。所以和你对战时的竞技感，远比和网上随机玩家对战强烈得多。但同样地，如果连输几局，我会更加窝火，因为感觉像是被作弊了。

No. This is me and Tim's death match here. This is like and you and I have a long history with this. And so I feel more of a sense of competition when I'm playing with you than when I'm playing with the random person online. But also, I find that if I have a string of losses, I feel a little saltier about it because I feel like I'm being cheated.

确实有些游戏存在大量运气成分。比如我在《星际领域》里随机匹配玩家时，就遇到过连输十局的经历——我总用这个例子，因为玩得最多也最典型。每次输我都会告诉自己‘这是运气，纯属运气’。

And I mean and, yes, there are certainly games where, you know, there's a lot of luck involved. And I've had streaks where I was playing against random people on Star Realms. I'm gonna use that as an example because I think it's a really good one and because I play it so much where I lose like 10 games in a row. And I keep thinking to myself, that was luck. That was luck.

那只是运气。我认为真正的原因是我越来越沮丧，开始用不同的方式打比赛。然后我必须调整，必须重置这种状态。所以我觉得在这些情况下，更多是心理状态和态度的问题，而非真正的运气。至少对我来说，有时我会把这归咎于运气，但实际上可能并非如此。

That was luck. And I think what it really is, is I'm getting more and more frustrated and playing a different kind of game. And then I have to hit, I have to hit reset on that. So I think it really is more in some of these situations about mental state and about attitude than it is really about luck. And, you know, I at least for me, I kinda write that off as luck sometimes when it I don't think it actually is.

嗯，其实克里斯，我想回到那个话题，因为我现在想了想，当我连续输掉一系列比赛，比如连续输掉六、七、八场时，就不再感觉是运气问题了，反而开始对自己感到更糟。我开始觉得克里斯就是比我强，我无法与他竞争，我是个更差的玩家。虽然事实可能并非如此，因为下周我可能连续赢你十场。

Well, it's oh, I did wanna go back to that, Chris, actually, because now that I've been thinking about it a little bit, when I lose a stream in a row and when you're talking, like, six, seven, eight games in a row, it stops feeling like luck and it starts to I actually start to feel worse about myself. I start to think like Chris is just better at this. I can't I cannot compete against Chris. I'm a worse player. When that's probably not the case because next week I might actually beat you 10 games in a row.

没错。但有趣的是，你说得对。无论什么原因，当遭遇一连串失败时，确实会让人感觉自己不如别人。我想这就是不健康的竞争心态。

Right. But it it's funny. You're right. When it's a big string of losses for whatever reason, it actually does start to feel feel like a a lesser person. I guess that's that's unhealthy competition.

我也是

And I do

我也是。有趣的是，《星际领域》再次成为这类波动性游戏的绝佳例证。不知为何，蒂姆总能连赢好几局，我就想，糟糕，我玩这游戏真烂。然后等我连赢几局时，我又会欢呼雀跃。

and I do too. And that's the funny thing is that Star Realms again being a great example of how it's a streaky game. I don't know why that is, but it seems like Tim wins a bunch, and I'm going, oh, crap. I really suck at this game. And then I win a bunch, and I'm like, woo hoo.

我就是王者。接着蒂姆又连续赢几局，就这样来回拉锯。但因为我们有长期对战历史，情况显然不同。我认为这影响很大。另一个好例子是我刚和亚当玩了几局《花砖物语》。

I'm the king. And then Tim wins a bunch in, and it kinda goes back and forth like that. But there's definitely a difference because we have a history playing it. And I think that makes a big difference. Another good example of that is I just played a few games of Azul with Adam.

我是说，我本以为能赢亚当。要知道这家伙在BGA上的ELO排名才500多。但连续快速输给他几局后，我简直恨死《花砖物语》了。明显感觉血压上升——当你频繁被这样碾压时，确实会有点难受。那么问题来了：我们能从中吸取什么教训？

I mean, Like, I'm gonna beat Adam. I mean, you know, dudes ranked like a 500 something ELO on on BGA. And yet after playing a few games in rapid succession against him, I'm like, I hate Azules. I definitely find myself, you know, my my blood pressure going up a little bit because you know, it's when you, when you're taking a beating like that routinely, it just, it just kind of hurts a little bit. But so anyway, what's the lesson you can take away from that?

或者说我的感悟是什么？那就是有时必须暂时放下游戏，因为感到挫败感开始过度累积。当反复玩同一游戏却总达不到预期时，竞争就会变得不健康。但反过来说，我与游戏的关系也很重要——输给《花砖物语》高手亚当本不该难过，毕竟他只是个普通玩家。

Or what do I take away from that? And that sometimes I have to step away from a game because I feel like I'm starting to get a little bit too frustrated with it. The competition starts to feel a little unhealthy to me because I'm playing the same games over and over again, and I'm not doing what I was hoping that I would do in playing those games. Now, there's also a kind of a flip side to that, that it makes a huge difference to me what my relationship with a game is. So I shouldn't really feel bad about losing to Adam in Azul because he's a really, really good Azul player and I'm I'm pretty average.

同理，在《星际领域》这种高运气成分的游戏里输也不该太沮丧，尽管我自认玩得不错。最近玩《达尔文之旅》时，我水平提升明显，所以输掉时会更加难受。

And I really shouldn't feel too bad about losing at Star Realms because there's so much luck involved, but that's a game I consider myself pretty good at. So when I'm losing a whole bunch of games, I feel pretty crappy. More recently in what's the, Darwin's Journey? In Darwin's Journey, I've gotten pretty good at that game. And so I take it harder when I lose a game of Darwin's Journey.

理论上说，如果我真输掉《达尔文之旅》的话...好吧其实输过一两局，这种挫败感更强，因为你对特定游戏的能力会产生心理预期。正因如此，我们总爱玩那些大家都擅长的游戏，这本身就很有趣。

I mean, I should say, theoretically, if I ever were to lose a game of Darwin's Journey. That's right. No. I but I've lost a game or two, and I and I take that a little bit harder because you you sort of develop an expectation about your abilities in certain games. And so that's one of the reasons I think why it's a lot of fun that we end up playing a lot of games that we're all either really good at.

我们都知道自己在这方面很在行。我觉得我们中没人会因为输掉一局《毁灭战士》而太难过，毕竟大家都有赢的时候。

We know we're all really good at it. I don't think any of us takes it too hard when we lose a game of doom because we all have our share of wins there.

嗯，但是

Mhmm. But

如果有一款游戏让你觉得自己特别擅长，很可能成为桌上的赢家，结果却输了，这种挫败感会强烈得多。

if there's a game where you feel like you're really good and you're likely to be the winner at the table and then you end up losing, it's it's a lot easier to take that a lot harder.

所以我们又在讨论不同游戏如何激发你不同类型的竞争心态。我觉得这是个有趣的问题。比如《外交》这种游戏，我几乎不想碰，因为我知道谎言和背叛是游戏核心，而我受不了这些。或许我该试一次，就做个从不撒谎、不捅刀子、诚实到底的人。虽然我知道自己终究会被背叛，但试试看会怎样吧。

So again, we're talking about how do different games elicit a different type of competitiveness in you. This I think is an interesting question. So a game like Diplomacy, I almost don't wanna even touch it because I know lying and backstabbing is a huge part of that and I can't stand that. I guess I wanna try it one time and I'm just gonna be the guy that never lies and doesn't backstab and just is honest. And I know that I'm gonna be a backstab and whatever, we'll see how that goes.

看看《舒适物语》这种游戏，感觉就是软绵绵的抱枕聚会。我总觉得这类游戏竞争性不足，大家就是围桌闲坐。可能我完全错了——毕竟规则要求手牌不能超过三张，必须不断弃牌，这可能会改变我对它的看法。

Creature comforts. Look at that game and it just looks like a softy, hug a pillow, here we go. Is like, I feel like some games like that, there's not gonna be enough competition, and we're just gonna be hanging out at the table. Maybe I'm totally wrong about that. Maybe since I can't hold 20 cards in my hand until the end of the game and I have to discard down to three, it might change how I feel about creature comforts.

我们讨论过欧式策略与区域控制的区别。这是不同类型的竞争对吧？欧式策略更像解谜竞速，资源管理游戏的优先级设置和区域控制游戏完全不同（至少我是这样）。这是另一种形式的较量。

We talked about that euro style versus the area control. There is some it's a different type of competition. Right? So the euro style is like, who can solve the puzzle fast as you prioritize different things in a resource management game than you do in an area control game, at least I do. It's a it's a different type of competition.

前者更多是与玩家对抗，而后者更多是与游戏机制周旋。我有个18xx系列的故事——不知道你们是否了解，我曾沉迷这类铁路公司股票市场游戏。玩家轮流在地图上扩展铁路网络，还要参与股票交易阶段。

One is a bigger percentage of playing against the other players, I feel like, rather than playing against the system of the game and some some of the things the other players are doing. I have a 18xx story. I don't if you guys knew this. I got really into these railroad games, 18 x x games that involve railroad companies and a stock market. You're taking turns between trying to build your network out on the map and these stock trading phases.

于是我在疫情期间潜心研究，水平提升了不少。本来还能应付，直到我们遇到一个玩了多年的大神。我们玩的是原版1830弗朗西斯·特雷瑟姆桌游，结果这家伙第二轮就把我们全灭了。他让所有人（或者说至少一个人）破产，自己资金最多直接终结游戏。

So I took a deep dive during COVID and I got decently good at them. I was holding my own and then we played this guy that had been playing for years and years and years. We're playing the original, the 1830 Francis Tresham, the OG. And this guy just destroyed us in round two and the game was over. He like made everybody go bankrupt or one guy go bankrupt and he had the most money game over.

我就问他：你早知道会这么快赢吗？他一脸理所当然地说当然啊。那一刻我就意识到，我永远不可能成为

So I was like, did you know that you were gonna win it that quick? And he's like, yeah, of course anyway. And at that point, I was like, oh, I'm never gonna be a

优秀的18XX玩家，

good 18 x x player,

我直接退坑了。但后来我又连续赢了三局类似的游戏，当时就想：该收手了。我彻底退出，再也没玩过。

I'm out of here. But and and at the same time, you know, later on, I think I won three of those types of games in a row and I was like, I'm gonna hang it up. I quit. I'm never gonna play again. I've never been back.

我三连胜后认清自己永远达不到那人的水平，也没毅力去追赶，就放弃了。你们刚才提到游戏中的情绪爆发点——克里斯你之前也暗示过——有些游戏如果竞争失衡，怒火就会慢慢滋生，让人产生'又来了，简直难以置信'的崩溃感。

So I took my three in a row, realized I'd never be as good as this guy was, that I didn't have the will to get as good as this guy was and hung it up. And you guys were talking about sort of the potential for boil over. I think you alluded to this earlier in the conversation, Chris. So some games, if the competition doesn't feel right, you can get that rage coming up and slowly creep in and you're like, oh, not again. I can't believe this happened.

对，这种情绪可能瞬间爆发。在激烈的桌游对抗中，当事情不如预期时，那种好胜心和攻击性就会冒头。你必须学会压制这种突如其来的竞争性怒火——至少我个人现在不太会这样了，但这种情绪确实会悄然滋生。

Yeah. It can be an instantaneous thing. The competition and those aggression in that that fieriness you get when you're in the midst of a heated board game and then something doesn't go your way. So you have to be able to quell that instant sort of, I don't know, rage, aggression, competition sort of nerve that peaks up. At least I feel myself having to do that not as much anymore, but, yeah, that can creep in there.

亚当，在你问下一个问题前，我想补充你刚才提到的重点。之前我说过'永远不想玩你最喜欢的桌游'，这话可能让人误解。其实我的真实意思是：当你能在18XX游戏第二回合就碾压我时，我就不想和你玩那款游戏了。

Before before we jump to your next question, Adam, I wanna you you touched on a couple important things here. A little while back, I had made a comment. I think I misconstrued for my intent. I said, I never wanna play your favorite board game. But what I really meant was when you can beat me on the second turn of 18 x x game, I never wanna play that game with you.

这就是我的观点。和一个实力悬殊到连向他们学习提升都无望的对手玩竞技游戏毫无乐趣。我甚至不理解他们能从中获得什么乐趣。明明知道我是菜鸟，两回合就碾压我有什么好玩的？这种情况下我怎么可能玩得开心并继续玩下去？

That was my point. Is that it is not fun to play a competitive game with somebody that is so drastically skilled that it's not even the the possibility of learning to play better with them. And I don't even understand what they would find fun in it. What would you find fun in just crushing me in two turns when you know that I'm a lower skilled player? What's the possibility that I would actually enjoy that enough to keep playing?

这正是我说的实力悬殊问题。这又回到我最初关于良性竞争的话题——和五岁小孩比赛不是良性竞争。一个能在第二局就精通18xx游戏规则碾压新手的玩家也不是良性竞争。就像我和国际象棋大师对弈，我保证双方都不会觉得有趣。那我们为什么还要玩？

And that was my point, was it's that level of discrepancy. And that kinda goes back to my original topic about healthy competition is that playing with a five year old is not healthy competition. A person that knows how to win a game of 18 x x on the second play against people that don't is not healthy competition. It's like, I could play the grandmaster of chess, and I guarantee you that's not gonna be fun for either of us. So why are we playing that game?

你看，这就是我要表达的全部观点。我认为这是恶性竞争。竞技的乐趣在于大家处于相对公平的竞技环境。即使有人略强，你也能从中学到东西。或许他们会连续赢你几局，但你能看清自己该如何进步。

So, you know, that that was that was my whole point about that. And I think that is bad competition. It's like what what's most fun about competition was everyone's on a fairly level playing field. Even if some people are a little bit you can learn from them. Maybe they'll beat you a couple games in a row, but you're starting to see how you can get to it.

但当对手领先到我要花一年时间才能追赶的程度时，等我达到那个水平后，又能和谁竞争呢？只能和那一个人玩。和其他人玩都不再是有趣的竞争了。

But when they're so far advanced that there's like it would take me a year to get to that level, put that kind of time in. And then who's my competition then? Who can I play with? I can play with that one other person. Everybody else I play with is not gonna feel like fun competition anymore.

所以我认为桌游/体育运动中存在某种竞争层级，几乎难以企及。但即便达到了，我也不确定是否真的有趣。

So that's a level of competitiveness in board games and sports in life that I think is, it's it's like almost unattainable, but when you do attain it, I'm not sure that it's that fun either.

我有几个问题。Tim你经常提到游戏中的负面情绪，是否某些游戏比其他游戏更容易引发这类情绪？

So a couple questions. Tim, you talk a lot about bad feelings around the table. Are there certain games that are more likely to elicit these bad feelings than other games?

比以前少多了。我之前说过，我认为'地图兵力'类区域控制游戏容易因玩家间直接冲突引发负面情绪。现在更多是当感觉毫无胜算时——比如对手强到根本赢不了。对我来说，这些情况最容易产生负面情绪。

Less less than they used to be. I I'm I talked already a little bit more about how I I think troops on a map games or area control games where people can directly impact other players used to create more bad feelings. And, otherwise, now I would say it's more when I feel like there's it's hopeless. Like, somebody is so overskilled that you can't win. Though those are to to me, those those are the areas that tend to create bad feelings more than anything else.

然后，克里斯，你更多地转向了——我不确定你是否完全远离了区域控制类游戏。我不确定你是否真的在那方面有所退缩。

And then, Chris, you've moved more I don't know if you've moved away necessarily from area control type games. I don't know if that's true if you've retracted there.

嗯。

Mhmm.

或者也许你只是更愿意尝试这些欧式风格的游戏了。这是否部分源于你偏好的竞争类型？

Or maybe you've just opened up your willingness to play more of these euro style games. Is that in any part due to your preferred type of competition?

是的。我认为确实如此。而且我觉得这两件事我都做了。我拓展了玩各种不同类型游戏的意愿，但确实对一些过于激进的

Yeah. I think it actually is. And I think I've done both of those things. I've expanded my desire to play all kinds of different games, but I think I have actually gotten a little bit disenchanted with some of the really aggressive

嗯。

Mhmm.

区域控制类游戏有点失去兴趣了。我的意思是，有些游戏里玩家会联合起来阻止领先者，或者有人会摧毁你整局游戏努力构建的东西。这些对我吸引力不大了。相比更具攻击性的游戏，我现在对欧式游戏的策略解谜更感兴趣。不过话说回来，有些对抗性强的游戏我依然很享受。

Types of area control games. I mean, some of them where, you know, you just have people ganging up on each other to stop a a winner, you know, a runaway winner or to, you know, having someone destroying something that you've spent a game trying to build up. It just doesn't appeal to me as much. I've gotten much more interested in the puzzle of a euro type game than I am in something that's more aggressive. Having said that, I also still really enjoy some aggressive games.

比如我超爱玩《机器人竞技场》这种纯粹互殴的游戏，还有《血怒》。我经常玩《血怒》。这类游戏我依然乐意继续玩，但某些游戏中的特定因素组合会让它们显得比其他游戏更具攻击性——虽然这个描述可能不太准确，毕竟区域控制类游戏本质上就很有对抗性。但有些游戏对我来说有点过火了，就没那么喜欢。

I mean, I love playing something like Robot Quest Arena where you're just trying to kill each other or Blood Rage. I mean, I always play game Blood Rage. There's lots of those types of games that I'm perfectly happy to keep playing, but there is a certain combination of factors in some games that make them feel just more actively aggressive than others, which is probably a bad descriptor because area control games are almost by definition very aggressive. But there's certain ones that just push a little bit too far for me, and I don't enjoy them as much.

亚当，在你跳到下一个问题之前，我注意到你的问题清单上没有涉及因体育精神不佳导致的恶劣行为这类问题。我想部分原因可能是我们三个人平时表现都还不错，通常不会展现出那种行为。但我确实见过类似情况，我认为有必要从体育精神角度谈谈哪些行为在桌游场合是绝对不可接受的。比如我亲眼见过有人因为输棋就开始贬低或冲别人吼叫，说什么‘你那么做就是为了伤害我’。当然，我也对你们说过类似的话，但都是以开玩笑的语气，并非真心要伤人。

Adam, before you jump to your next question, I I noticed there's no questions on your list here that have to do with, like, the kind of bad behavior that results from poor sportsmanship, which I I think is partly probably because I think the three of us are pretty good most of the time. We we don't generally exhibit that type of behavior, but I have seen some of that. And I think it's worth talking about what is really truly not acceptable behavior around a board game table from a sportsmanship perspective. For example, I have literally seen people and they're losing and they start degrading or yelling at somebody for saying, like, you did that just to to hurt me. Now I get that I've I've said stuff like that, right, to you guys, but not not in a serious mean way.

但我确实见过有人是带着恶意的。虽然我和你们开玩笑时也...

And I've seen it in a mean way. Like, I I've joked with you.

这是个危险的滑坡啊，蒂姆。非常危险的滑坡。

It's a slippery slope, Tim. It's a slippery slope.

没错，你说得对。不过这让我想起个好例子——几周前我们三个玩《宇宙青蛙》时，有次我觉得应该允许悔棋，但克里斯坚决反对。当时我确实有点恼火。

That's right. You're right. But, actually, that that brings a great point because, like, we were playing cosmic frog a couple weeks ago, the three of us. Something happened in the game where I thought that I should be able to do a take back, and Chris was staunchly like, absolutely not. And in the moment, I was kinda pissed about it.

但事后想想他是对的，那步棋确实不该悔。他的判断完全合理，只是我当时有点玻璃心。不过我们很快就翻篇了，我觉得我们在这方面处理得还不错。

But in hindsight, he was right. I shouldn't have been able to do that take back. It was perfectly appropriate. And I kinda got a little sensitive, but then we let it go. We moved on, and I think we're we're pretty good about that.

但确实，当竞争让情绪上头时，我们都可能表现出不当行为。我想说的是，有些人根本无法正面应对竞争——只要没赢就让人避之不及。幸运的是我们都不是那种人，但千万别成为那种一输棋就让周围人如履薄冰的家伙，那样真的很扫兴。

But, yes, I think we all can exhibit some bad behavior when competition gets our emotions risen a little bit. My point being that there are some people that don't handle competition at all positively. If they are not winning, they're they're not fun to be around. And luckily, I none of us tended to be like that, but don't be that person that is constantly people are stepping on pins and needles when when you're losing because it's not fun.

蒂姆，你主动提起那个觉得自己过于敏感的例子让我很欣慰。因为那局《宇宙青蛙》之后，我第二天早上还特意发消息道歉，觉得自己当时特别混蛋。

I'm actually really gratified, Tim, that you brought up that example as something where you thought you were maybe being a little oversensitive because that game of cosmic frog was one where I thought I was being really a jerk. In fact, I think I texted you guys the next morning to say, hey, sorry about being a jerk last night.

是的。不过因为

Yeah. But because

我当时对此相当固执。我是说，通常我们玩游戏是为了娱乐。但关键在于，你知道，我们的理念是，如果你知道自己落后两轮，别人就不能说‘我要撤销这个重大操作’。那其实是件相对小事。而我却为此大动肝火。

I was being pretty strident about it. I mean, normally, we play for fun. I mean, you but that's the thing is, you know, it's kind of our ethos that, of course, if you know you're two turns down, someone can't say, oh, I'm gonna go undo this big thing. It was some relatively minor thing. And and and I got really bent out of shape about it.

但你知道，那天晚上我心情不太好，不知为何。我把这事闹得很大。而现在我们能用这种方式讨论这件事，恰恰说明我们都在努力在游戏时保持良好的体育精神，因为我们不想让对方感到不快，对吧？

But, you know, I was I was not feeling in the best mood that night for whatever reason. And and I made a big deal about it. So and I think just the fact that we're even having this conversation the way that we are now shows that we all try really hard to just be good sportsmen around the table when we're playing with each other because we we don't wanna make each other feel bad. Right?

是的。所以我认为我们都更珍视彼此的友谊，而不是为游戏大动干戈。我们都知道这只是游戏，会有各种疯狂的情绪，互相开些荒唐的玩笑。我觉得在桌游中，很多荒唐行为都能被原谅。当然我们从来不会太过火，我觉得我们很擅长自我调节。

Yeah. So, yeah, I think we all value each other's friendship over, you know, getting all bent out of shape about a game. So and we all understand it's a game too, and we're gonna have whatever crazy feelings and be ridiculous with each other. So I I think there's a lot that gets forgiven for ridiculousness around a board game. Not that we ever get too out of control anyway, but I think we're pretty good at self regulating.

我的下一个问题——我觉得我们已经部分讨论过了——这算是前一个问题的反面：你偏好的竞技水平如何影响你对游戏的选择？如果这个话题没有新的讨论点，我可以直接剪掉这部分。

My next question, and I think we've already sort of covered this. It's sort of the inverse of the previous question. How does your preferred competition level influence your preferred game choices? And if there's no new discussion points on this one, I can just edit this one out.

你偏好的竞技水平...是的，我认为在某种程度上是这样的。就像我说的，我最享受的是那些让我觉得自己的选择带来竞争力的游戏，这可能就是欧式策略游戏适合我的原因。重点不在于我如何抵挡别人的想法或揣测他们的意图，而是‘嘿，我要完成这个目标，我能比别人做出更好的决策吗？’

How does your preferred competition yeah. I I think so to an extent. Like, again, partly what I enjoy the most in games is where I feel like I I was competitive because of my choices, and that's probably why euro games really work for me. Because it's not about how I just staved off other people's ideas or read their minds or, like, try to get ahead of their what they were trying to do. It's more about like, hey.

我正在尝试完成这个目标。我能比别人做出更好的决定吗？对我来说，解决这个谜题的心理挑战——并且以竞技的方式，比别人做得更好——这对我来说更有趣。当然，我通常并不比别人强，别误会。

There's there's this thing I'm trying to accomplish. Can I make better decisions than other people? To me, the mental challenge of solving that puzzle is and and doing it competitively, doing it better than other people is more fun for me. I I'm not usually better than other people. Don't get me wrong.

我并不是一个很擅长玩游戏的人，但我在尝试成为桌上最厉害的那个玩家时玩得很开心。当别人能彻底打乱我的计划时——虽然我其实喜欢游戏中的互动，对吧？但就像我之前说的区域控制类游戏，如果四个人玩的时候两个人联合对付另一个，那就不是我的强项了。

I'm not like a very good game player, but I have a fun time trying to to be the best person doing that around the table. When somebody else can mess with my plans drastically, like, not I like interaction in games. Right? But when it's like I said earlier about area control games. If there's four people playing and two people ganging up on another person, that is not my skills.

或许你可以说这是我的短板。比如我不够圆滑，可能我缺乏说服别人改变主意的魅力，或者不管什么原因。但对我来说，坐下来玩游戏不是为了这个。所以我的游戏选择取决于哪里能找到乐趣和竞争。

And maybe you can say that it's my palette. Like, I'm not political enough. Maybe I, you know, I don't have the the charisma to talk other people into doing other stuff or I whatever the reason is. But for me, that's not what I'm sitting there to game with. So for me, yeah, I think I think that my game choice is dictated by where where I find fun and competition.

蒂姆，那是因为你在那些游戏里进步太快太厉害了。就是这么回事。

Tim, it's because you are too good too soon in those games. That's what

通常确实如此。我发现自己特别追求某种类型的竞争，这种竞争在游戏时让我特别享受，也确实影响了我的选择。虽然对话中我已经举过例子，但我还是想再提几个。比如《沙丘》，我喜欢和你们玩这个，因为我们水平相当，至少都差不多。

that's usually why it is. I definitely find that there's a certain type of competition that I look for and that is particularly enjoyable to me when we play games, and it does affect my choices. And I've I've thrown out examples of this throughout the conversation, but I'll just kinda reiterate a couple of them. One is Dune. I love playing Dune with you guys because it's a game that we're all really good at or at least we're all about the same at.

所以如果我想真正挑战自己，可以选择和你们任意一人或两人对战，都能玩得很尽兴。我觉得这种竞争非常刺激。相对不太健康的是，当我玩一个对自己表现已有预期的游戏时——比如我总觉得自己必须一直赢《星际领域》。这可能对我有点不好，因为如果没赢就会有点沮丧，或者任何我以为能轻松碾压结果却表现不佳的游戏。

So I feel like if I wanna really test myself, I can play either of you or both of you and have a really great game. And I think that's a really exciting kind of competition. A little bit more unhealthy to me, I think, is when I'm playing a game that I already have some kind of expectation about how I'm gonna perform. Like, I feel like I had to be winning star realms all the time. And so, you know, maybe that's a little more unhealthy for me because, you know, then I don't, and then I feel a little bit bad about it or any game that I think I'm gonna be really dominant at and then don't do as well.

这类游戏我反而更想玩，因为想着赢了会感觉很好，但真输了又没那么痛快。不过话说回来，这些大多也是我真正喜欢的游戏。所以偶尔需要主动退出一款游戏休息下，免得对胜负太过执着。可惜《星际领域》还做不到，因为那是一场永无止境的生死战。这太重要了，蒂姆。

That's a that's a kind of game where I feel more inclined to play it because I think, well, I'm just gonna go feel good about the win, but then if I don't win, I don't end up feeling as good. Having said that, most of those are games that I really enjoy as well. So I do have to occasionally step back from a game and take a break from it because I feel like I'm getting a little bit too overly invested in my performance in it. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to do that with Star Realms yet because Star Realms are are ongoing death battle there. It's just way too important, Tim.

我总觉得这游戏会在某个时刻成为我人生的转折点。终有一天会明白为什么如此重要。

I I feel like it's going to be a pivotal point in my life at some point. It'll all come clear at some someday in the future why that is.

是不是当你胜多负少时就会转变策略？事情就是这样发生的

Is that when you was that when you pivot over for having more wins than losses? That happen so

结果我又陷入了劣势。不过话说回来，我确实会关注游戏的竞技水平或竞技风格，这些确实会产生影响，但并不总是必然会影响我

And I ended up going on the deficit again. But, anyway, yeah, it's but I do I do look at those the competitive level of a game that I'm playing or the competitive style of a game, and it does influence it. But it doesn't always necessarily influence me for

往好的方向发展。总之就是这样。重申一下问题：你偏好的竞技水平如何影响游戏选择？所以我寻找那些能很好平衡策略对决的游戏，需要一点智慧较量，与对手斗智斗勇。我觉得这是磨砺思维锋芒的有趣方式

the better. So so there you go. To reiterate the question, how does your preferred competition level influence your preferred game choices? So I look for games that have that good mix of who can strategize the best, a little bit of wits, matching wits with the other person. I think that's an interesting aspect to sort of sharpen those blades, sharpen the the blades of your brain.

同时我也能接受少许运气成分。我喜欢那点运气因素，让弱势方永远有机会，无论强者自认为多么厉害。现在做个小小总结：适度的竞争能让人精神振奋，但就像走钢丝般不稳定。正如我常说的，这正是我在加入新团体或结交新朋友时产生焦虑的主因

And then I'm okay with a little bit of luck. I like that little bit of luck in there so that the underdog always has a chance no matter how good the good person thinks they are. So moving on to the little conclusion, try to wrap it all up. I think the right amount of competition can be invigorating, but I think it's something of an unstable tightrope. I've said it before, this is a large part of the anxiety I can get when trying to join or form a new group or just any new friend.

我们聊过塞多纳大会上计分系统让我过度竞争的事。克里斯要么察觉到了，要么也有同感。后来在机场的会后谈话对我帮助极大。克里斯，不知是你发现后开导了我，还是你也有同样感受，但谢谢你当时找我单独谈心

We talked about our SedonaCon where the scoring system made me uncomfortably competitive. And Chris either saw this or felt it too. And at our post con chat at the airport, it was incredibly helpful moving forward for me. And Chris, I don't know if you saw that and brought me down or if you were feeling the same way too, but thanks for bringing me aside and having the discussion with me. That was great.

没错，我听起来可能有点疯。我见识过你们两位的才华，不仅在于营造健康的游戏氛围，还有这档播客节目和你们的生活态度。这激励我更加努力，即便伴随些许压力，也让人感到充满活力。最后还有什么想说的吗？

I've seen yeah. I sound crazy. I've seen how talented you guys are, the two of you, not just at creating a healthy gaming environment, but with creating this podcast and at life. And it's made me wanna try harder, which even if it comes with a little bit of stress, has felt very healthy and invigorating. Any final thoughts?

最后想说的是，你们是最佳游戏搭档，因为总能带来激烈较量。我们线下聚会过多次，每个人都曾成为周末的大赢家。有时候我觉得亚当在所有方面都能赢我，他样样比我强，或者克里斯会全面碾压我

Final thoughts is you guys are great gaming partners because I always feel like it's tough competition. We've done several of our in person weekends. Every one of us has been the big winner for a weekend at varying times. Sometimes where I feel like Adam is gonna beat me at everything. I he's better than me at everything, or Chris is gonna beat me at everything.

有时候，哇，我简直是个杀手。就像这个周末我要赢下每场比赛，感觉棒极了。这很有趣，因为每次坐下来和你们玩游戏时，无论什么项目我都觉得自己有机会，但同时也必须全力以赴做到最好。对我来说这就是竞技的乐趣。

Or sometimes, wow. I'm I I'm a killer. Like, I'm taking every game this weekend, and it feels great. And that's so fun because I know every every single time I sit down and play a game with you guys, no matter what it is, I've got a shot, but also I've gotta work my butt off and try to try to do my best at it. And that's fun competition to me.

所以，这就是我在竞技中追求的。这就是我和别人一起玩游戏时看重的。

So, yeah, that's what I'm looking for in competition. That's what I look for when I sit down to play games with people.

我喜欢这样。我们互相给友情打五星好评，我觉得这太棒了。

I love it. Well, I love that we're giving each other five star reviews on our friendship, so I I think that is that is awesome.

等等等等，我只是说你们是优秀的对手，可没说你们是好朋友。

Wait. Wait. Wait. I was just saying you guys are good competitors. I didn't say you were great friends.

哦好吧，当我没说。那就一星差评不推荐。其实关于竞技最该记住的是：桌游虽然是个爱好，但作为面对面的实体爱好，它更关乎与你相处的人和结交的朋友。这可能是游戏爱好中最重要的事——我们之前说过，玩桌游的人大多比较内向（当然不是所有人）。

Oh, okay. Okay. Never mind. So, one star would not would not recommend. I think that that is actually one of the best things to keep in mind about competition is that board gaming, much as it's about the hobby, because it is an analog in person face to face hobby that it is also about the people that you're dealing with and the friends that you make, That is probably the single most important thing about the gaming hobby because I think we've said it before, but, you know, a lot of people that play board games, you know, we tend to be a pretty introverted crowd and not everybody, but a lot of us.

这是建立美好友谊的绝佳方式，也是共同享受刺激有趣活动的机会。我们每个人都有责任让围坐在桌边的每个人都获得最佳体验，毕竟这些是共度时光、分享兴趣的伙伴。保持友好和愉快很重要，竞技虽好但并非全部。

And so what a great way to have, you know, good friendships and have an exciting and fun activity to do together. And so it's really incumbent on all of us to make that experience as good as we can for everybody around that table. Because, you know, those are the people that we spend our time with, and those are the people that share our interests. And so let's just keep it friendly and enjoyable. Competition is great, but competition isn't everything.

我努力铭记这点，虽然不总是成功。比如有时我会揪着Tim的宇宙青蛙骰子不放，事后觉得自己蠢透了。但确实，竞争就像调味料，而并非主菜。说得好。

So I try to take that to heart. I don't always succeed. Know, sometimes I jump on Tim about his cosmic frog dice and then I feel like a complete idiot after. But, but yeah, I think that competition is the the spice in this whole thing, but it's not necessarily the meat. Bravo.

好的。那么，感谢大家这周的参与。谢谢亚当提出的主题并引导讨论，今晚能在这方面稍作休息真是太好了。下周见。

Alright. Well, thank you everybody for joining us this week. Thanks, Adam, for the topic and and leading the conversation. It was nice to take a break tonight in that aspect. Until next week.

大家保重。

Take care, everybody.

各位晚安，再见。

Good night, all. Bye bye.