主题驱动机制

大家好。欢迎来到桌游热点话题。我是蒂姆。

Hey there. Welcome to board game hot takes. My name is Tim.

这位是克里斯。

And this is Chris.

我是亚当。

This is Adam.

这位是戴夫。

And this is Dave.

今天我们节目来了个新声音。戴夫·贝克加入了我们。戴夫是《蒸馏》和《Luthier》的设计师。戴夫，这个应该读作Luthier还是Luthier？

We got a new voice on the show today. Dave Beck has joined us. Dave is the designer of Distilled and Luthier. Do you do you pronounce it Luthier Dave or is it Luthier or Luthier?

希望你们准备好迎接长达两小时的节目了。我一直读作luthier，但这暴露了我的美式口音。我想在世界其他地方应该是读作luthier。

Hope you're ready for like a two hour episode. This is like, I I've pronounced it luthier, but, know, that's showing my American side. So I guess if anywhere else in the world, it's luthier.

好的。很高兴知道这个，因为我肯定在评测《Luthier》时读错了，但现在我们有了官方立场。戴夫，感谢加入我们。今晚戴夫将与我们共同主持，我们要讨论的主题是由主题驱动的游戏机制。

Okay. Good to know because I'm sure I pronounced that wrong when we did a review of Luthier, but now we've got an official stance on that. Well, Dave, thanks for joining us. So Dave is on to co host with us tonight. And the topic we're gonna be talking about is mechanisms that were driven by theme.

我们想和戴夫讨论这个的原因是因为我们认为《蒸馏》是最具主题性的游戏之一，它比我玩过的几乎所有其他桌游都更注重主题。戴夫，你的这款游戏即将在Kickstarter上推出扩展包，就在这期节目发布后的第二天就会上线。我们想听听相关情况，但在深入讨论之前，先告诉我们我们的判断是否正确。《蒸馏》是主题驱动的吗？还是你事先想好了某些机制，然后思考如何将主题融入其中？

And and the reason why we wanted to discuss this with Dave is because we think one of the most thematic games, the games that really seems to lean into theme more than almost any other board game that I've played is his game Distilled. Dave, you've got an expansion coming out for this on Kickstarter, like the day after this releases, it's gonna be up on Kickstarter. We wanna hear a little bit about that, but before we jump into that and before we jump into the overall conversation, tell us if we're right about that. Was Distilled kind of driven by theme or did you have some mechanisms in mind? You're like, how does this fit?

我该搭配什么内容呢？

What do I put together with it?

是的，蒂姆，这个问题问得很好。它确实是100%由主题驱动的，可能还带点威士忌的灵感。长话短说，我当时有幸在苏格兰旅行，参观了许多蒸馏厂，也玩了很多桌游。

Yeah, Tim, no, that's great question, Tim. It was 100% driven by theme with a little bit of whiskey as well, perhaps. Long story short, I was actually I had the the great benefit of being over in Scotland. I had been touring distilleries. I had been playing lots of board games.

说实话，这个想法是在某个晚上我突然想到的，当时我正在思考蒸馏酒精的过程。我想，等等，他们提取部分酒精并进行切割的这个概念很酷，我可以用某种机制来表现这一点，比如切割一副卡牌。然后我开始思考，等等，我可以用我一直很喜欢的牌库构筑机制来实现这个。

Honestly, this idea just came to me one night when I was thinking about the process of distilling alcohol. And I thought, wait a minute, this cool concept of taking, you know, they're taking part of this alcohol and making a cut. I could I could represent that in a in a in the way of of some sort of mechanic where I could just cut cut a deck of cards. And then I started thinking, well, wait a minute. I could do this with a deck builder, which I've always really enjoyed deck builders.

《蒸馏》最初是一款纯粹的卡牌构筑游戏，纯粹的卡牌构筑，这一点你大概能看出来吧？它保留了那种机制的元素。整个游戏就是从那个机制开始的。然后从那里开始，我就想，等等，我可以把整个游戏做成关于经营酿酒厂的故事——那么，要完成这个故事你需要做些什么呢？

Distilled started as a deck builder, pure pure deck builder, which you can kind of see, right? It's got like elements of that in it. That mechanic is how the entire game started. And from there, it just started, well, wait a minute. I could have this entire game about you running a distillery and you well, what do you need to do to do the story?

这基本上就是我的创作过程。总的来说，《蒸馏》的设计过程就是思考：如何通过机制尽可能地去呈现蒸馏工艺、行业以及全球商业中的不同元素？如何找到方法去描绘这些内容？

And that's really all about my process. And and from there, the design process in general for Distilled was how can I represent the different elements you would find in distillation, in the industry, in the business around the world? How can I find ways to depict that through mechanisms whenever possible?

Dave，Tim说过这些不是访谈节目，你是共同主持的一部分，但我要暂时接过Tim的话筒，因为我读了你的背景，觉得非常有意思。你教授游戏设计理论。

Dave, so Tim says, you know, these aren't interview episodes. You're part of the cohosting process, but I'm gonna steal Tim's reins for a little bit because I read your background. It's super interesting to me. You teach as a game design theory.

是的。是的。这太不可思议了。

Yeah. Yeah. That's incredible.

那么我有几个问题想问你。你在进入《蒸馏》项目之前就已经有很多见解了吗？因为里面涉及大量关于蒸馏过程的内容，看起来你必须是个超级专家才能设计出这样的东西。然后你是否会以

And then so a couple questions I have for you. Did you have a lot of insight already going into Distilled? Because there's so much in there about the distillation process, and it seems like you gotta be a freaking expert to design something like that. And then do you look at

这个

the

视角看待世界，思考如何将其转化为桌游，毕竟你是游戏设计理论的老师？

world as how it can be turned into a board game, being a teacher of of a a game design theory?

是的。哦，天啊。好问题。我的背景确实是游戏设计。我教游戏设计。

Yeah. Oh, man. Great question. So background is, yeah, game design. I teach game design.

说来奇怪，在《蒸馏》之前我的背景主要是教电子游戏设计。所以我教高级三维建模、三维游戏设计课程，也教一些桌游设计，但核心是游戏设计理论原则。有趣的是，在威士忌这方面——不，我虽然喜欢威士忌，但我觉得这可能是教授职业病的缘故。每当我决定要做某件事时，我就会深入钻研，告诉自己必须把这东西研究个透，

Oddly enough, my my background before Distilled really was mostly teaching video game design. So I I, you know, upper level three d modeling, three d game design classes, classes, some some some tabletop game design, but, yeah, game design theory principles. And so with that, what was what was interesting there with the whiskey side of things is no. I I enjoyed whiskey, but I think it's the nature of, I guess I'm just gonna say being a professor. I don't know where I think whenever and it's it is true whenever I decide I want to do something I dive in and I just say I'm gonna have to research the heck out of this thing,

对吧？

right?

所以我对Luthier也做了同样的事情。就像我必须对这个领域进行深入研究，如果我要通过两种机制来呈现它，同时也要通过玩家体验来呈现，我想确保我做的是正确的。所以，是的，大部分都是研究，但也会聘请其他人来填补空白，确保我也做得正确。而且，是的，在某种程度上，我确实是这样。我经常并不是，你知道，也许并不总是四处游荡。

So I did the same thing with Luthier, too. Like I'm gonna have to just research the heck out of this this area if I'm gonna if I if I were to represent this through both mechanisms, but also through the player experience, I want to make sure that I'm doing this right. And so, yeah, most of that all was research, but then also hiring people on so I oftentimes will try and hire in other experts to fill in the gaps to make sure I'm doing things correctly as well. And, yeah, to a certain degree, I am. I'm oftentimes I'm not, you know, maybe not just wandering around all the time.

所以我经常在思考，世界上有哪些机会，可能还没有被转化为游戏，我们肯定可以利用这些机会。

So but I am oftentimes trying to think about, like, what are some of those those opportunities in the world that, you know, have have not maybe been turned into games yet that we could, take advantage of for sure.

嗯，戴夫，你开始说话的时候，我以为你会说这是酒鬼的天性，想尝试一切，然后围绕这个设计游戏。不，我理解。这里没有评判。我完全支持你。

Well, Dave, when you started talking there, I thought what you were gonna say was it's in the nature of an alcoholic to wanna try everything and, and then design games around No. Which I get. No judgment here. I'm totally with you.

什么？你把那句话说完，不是我。

What? You finish that sentence, not me.

所以我什么也不会说。

So I won't say anything.

不予置评。

No comment.

很高兴有你加入我们，戴夫，因为我们要谈论一个你现在算是专家的话题，而且这将是我们节目中第一次有专家参与，这太棒了。这是一个很好的变化。但让我们听听关于《Distilled》这个扩展的一些情况。顺便说一下，我们实际上刚刚有机会一起亲自玩了《Distilled》，这对我们来说是很罕见的事情。我们每年大约只能见面两次，上周末我们聚在一起，玩《Distilled》的经历非常愉快。

It's nice to have you with us, Dave, because we're gonna be talking about a subject that you're kind of an expert on at this point, and it's gonna be the first time there's gonna be any expertise on our show, which is great. It's a nice change. But let's hear a little bit about this expansion for Distilled. And by the way, we all actually just got a chance to play Distilled together in person, which is a rare thing for us. We we don't only get to see each other about twice a year and we we hung out this last weekend and we had a great experience playing Distilled.

我们玩过前两个扩展包，非洲中东扩展和原桶强度扩展。对Distilled过去的扩展内容有了一定的近期了解，但下周的节目我们会更详细讨论。想听我们展会情况的观众，我们下周也会多聊。但我真的很期待听到Distilled的新扩展，因为看起来你们可能把它提升到了新高度，因为现在我们要讨论鸡尾酒了。所以基本上你们是要把这些我们一直在蒸馏的东西理论上混合在一起，制作出新的东西。

We played with both of the previous two expansions, the African Middle East expansion and the Cask Strength expansion. Got a a, you know, a decent recent history on what Distilled's past expansions have been about, but we'll talk a lot more about that on next week's episode. If those of you who are wanting to hear about our con, we'll talk more about that next week. But I'm really excited to hear about new expansion for Distilled because it seems like you've probably taken it to the next level because now we're talking about cocktails. So you're gonna basically taking these things we've been distilling and theoretically mixing them together and making something out of it.

不如你花几分钟时间，给我们讲讲游戏是如何运作的，以及这是否也是先有主题设计的。

So why don't you spend a few minutes, tell us a little bit how the game works and if that was designed theme first as well.

确实是，百分之百是的。再次回到故事上来。我得说很多时候我尝试建立联系——一开始我并不是有意为之，但随着时间的推移，当我回顾我的设计历程时，我经常会把游戏与故事或某些特定时刻联系起来。

It it was. It was a 100%. So again, back to a story. I I I gotta say a lot of times I try and connect. I I didn't I didn't end up doing this on purpose, you know, in the beginning, but I'm noticing, over time as I think about my design journey, if you will, oftentimes I connect games back to stories or certain moments I have.

几年前，我第一次有机会去肯塔基州，参观了几家那里的蒸馏厂。我以前从没去过。对吧？我去过苏格兰，也很喜欢那里的酒厂，但从没去过波本威士忌之乡。当时我正在参观其中的几家。

A couple years ago, I got the chance for the first time to be down in Kentucky and I was visiting a couple distilleries down there. I'd never been. Right? So I've I've I've been to Scotland and enjoyed those, but I'd never been to Bourbon Country. And I was touring a couple of them.

当然，与苏格兰不同，这里是美国，一切都必须围绕商业体验展开。他们把我们赶出了游览路线。结果我发现自己每次、每次都会来到一个鸡尾酒吧。而且每次都是那种设计非常巧妙的鸡尾酒吧。当然，这些酒吧只供应他们自己的烈酒，提供非常独特高端的精酿鸡尾酒。

And unlike in Scotland, of course, it's America and everything has to be about the commercial experience here. They spit us out of the tour. And what do I find myself in but a cocktail bar every time, every time I'm in a cocktail bar. And it's a cocktail bar every time that is very artfully designed. The cocktails, of course, are serving only their spirits, of course, and they're serving very craft cocktails that are very unique and high end.

这让我想到，这正是我一直想用鸡尾酒做点什么但没实现的。我们需要把这个融入《蒸馏》游戏中。于是我开始构思一些创意，并与《蒸馏》的开发人员理查德·伍兹合作探讨这些想法。是的，我对鸡尾酒元素真的非常兴奋。

And it got me thinking, well, that's something that, you know, I I had been wanting to do something with cocktails, but I realized this is what's missing. We need to get this in Distilled. So I started working on some ideas. Richard Woods, who is the developer for Distilled, I started collaborating on some ideas there. So, yeah, really excited about cocktails.

虽然名字叫鸡尾酒，但内容可丰富多了。就像《蒸馏》基础版里可能包含一个半游戏内容，这个扩展简直相当于四个扩展合为一体。它增加了双发酵槽——现在有第二个发酵槽了，你可以在酿酒厂一侧放一个，另一侧放另一个。

The name is cocktails, but boy, does it have a lot. Just like Distilled's got probably a game and a half in the box, this thing's this thing's probably like four expansions in one. It's got double washbacks. So now there's a second washback. So you've got one washback on one side and another on the on the other side of your distillery.

所以现在你可以在一个回合内制作两种烈酒。

So now you can make two spirits in a single round.

我喜欢这个设计。

I like that.

当你开局立即扩建酒厂时，那个位于你酒厂板另一侧的第二发酵槽——你会随手把这个东西贴在酒厂板边上——带有一个酒吧功能。这样你就有了一个鸡尾酒吧。现在你可以制作更多烈酒，但需要支付费用。运营这个东西是需要花钱的。这是新增的重要机制之一。

That second washback on the other side of your board, when you expand your distillery right away, when you start the game, you kinda toss this slap this thing on the side of your on your distillery board, features a bar. So you have a a cocktail bar. So you can make extra spirits now, but you have to pay for it. So it costs money to operate this thing. That's one of the the big new things happening.

另一个是鸡尾酒系统。新增了30种可调制的鸡尾酒，但你只能用已经蒸馏好的烈酒来制作。基本上你是从酒厂上方的标签中选择，这些鸡尾酒本质上是在新市场列上的订单（类似高级市场），你可以获取这些鸡尾酒带回自己的酒吧。随之而来的还有各种调酒辅料，比如樱桃装饰、气泡水等，你需要将这些与你已制作的烈酒混合调制成鸡尾酒。制作鸡尾酒是一个新阶段——这略微增加了游戏时间，是游戏新增的一个阶段。

Another one is the cocktails. So there's there's 30 new cocktails that you can make, but you can only make them with spirits that you have already distilled. So you're basically choosing a label from above your distillery, And, the cocktails essentially are orders out on, in kind of a new market row similar to the premium market where you can obtain these cocktails, bring them back to your bar. Along with those comes different mixers, things like garnishes like cherries and fizz and other things that you kind of put into the cocktail along with the spirit that you've already made. And when you make these cocktails in a new phase so this is kind of the one thing that adds a little extra time to the game is a new phase in the game.

总体来说，我认为这会使每位玩家增加约十分钟的游戏时长。你现在制作这些鸡尾酒并不会直接获得分数，而是获得声望值。这是游戏中一种新的非分数类成就，相当于地位象征。

So I'd say it adds about ten minutes per player to the game overall as far as the the game length. You now are making these. You don't get points them for them, though. You gain renown. It's a new type of not points in the game, but status symbol in the game.

这让你能够在一张新的世界地图上布局，因为既然已经建好了酒厂，自然要走向全球对吧？你通过在地图上扩张来获取小型奖励，虽然不是区域控制，但确实是在全球范围内争夺扩张空间。游戏中占据的地图空间越多，最终获得的分数就越高。所以你现在有了额外发酵槽、鸡尾酒系统。

That allows you to place yourself out on a new world map because now you've you've built your distillery, but now, of course, you're going global. Right? So you spread yourself across this map, getting little bonuses, also kind of fighting for not area control, but just, expansion around the globe. The more space you occupy over over that globe over the course of the game, the more points you're gonna get. So you've got your your extra washback, your cocktails.

你有了声望系统、世界地图，还有收藏家机制——这是我们新增的另一个特色。这个扩展包内容非常丰富，组件数量超过400个。收藏家机制就是：当你制作出更高级的烈酒（比如特别优质的烈酒时），因为收藏家只追求最顶尖的产品。

You've got this renowned, this map, and you've got collectors, which is another feature we're adding. So we're like packing. We've got over four. I'm not getting over 400 components in this expansion. So, the collectors, you're basically when you make a bigger spirit, like a really nice spirit, collectors only want the best.

但如果你能制作出那个并想卖给收藏家，他们会给你一个特殊板块，可以放在你的版图上，这基本上提供了一种可变的游戏终局计分方式。所以除了我们在Kickstarter上没有提供桌子（我对此感到遗憾）之外，我喜欢描述鸡尾酒的方式是——我总是喜欢把《蒸馏》比作我们都在一条四车道高速公路上同行。我们的策略都有些相似，虽然各有不同，但基本上都在沿着相同的方向前进。我们可能都会使用一两种陈年烈酒，或者都不用，但通常都在走相似的路线。

But if you can if you make that and you wanna, sell that to a collector, they will give you a special tile that you can put on your board that essentially gives you a variable, game end scoring. So the way I like to describe cocktails beyond the fact that the only thing that we're not offering in the Kickstarter that I'm regretting is, also a table, an extra table, for this, is, is I always like to talk about distilled as we're all going down a highway, like a four lane highway together. We all kinda have somewhat similar strategies. I mean, they're they're varied, but they're we're all kind of going down. We all might do an aged spirit maybe or two or maybe none, but usually all going down the same thing.

现在你可以向左拐上一条乡间小路，走一段然后再回来，最后仍然能在终点与我们汇合，甚至可能获胜。胜利有很多不同的路径，而且它们非常多样化。所以我们发现现在的重玩价值非常高，非常有趣。每次你都可以尝试完全不同的策略。

Now you can take a veer off on a country road off to the left, and you can go for a ways and then come back and still meet us at the end and maybe win. Like there's many different paths of victory, and they're very different. So what we're finding is replayability is crazy now. It's a lot of fun. Each time you can play a very different strategy.

这也稍微提高了游戏难度，使其更具策略性。不过是的，我们对鸡尾酒扩展及其将带来的一切感到非常兴奋。对于《蒸馏》的粉丝来说，这些都是模块化的，他们可以根据喜好逐步添加。

It's also cranking up the difficulty a little bit, so it's a little bit more strategic as well. But yeah, we're very excited about cocktails and all it's gonna offer. For those distilled fans, these are all modular too, they can kinda add them as they go if they'd like.

那么，戴夫，这里有个关键问题：我们会看到经典鸡尾酒如曼哈顿、玛格丽特之类的，还是会看到专门为游戏设计的新创鸡尾酒，或者是两者都有？

So, Dave, here's the critical question though. Are we gonna be seeing the classic cocktails, Manhattans, the margaritas, all that, or are we gonna be seeing new inventions that are specific to the game or both?

两者都会有一点。你会在卡牌上看到经典鸡尾酒，但我们的烈酒顾问布莱克——我最初为第一款游戏聘请了他——他实际上会为《蒸馏》专门设计独特的配方。这些将会在规则书中特别介绍。很棒吧。

Let a little of both. You're gonna see classic cocktails on the cards, but then Blake, who is our spirits consultant, he came he I hired him on in the first for the first game. He is actually gonna be, crafting specific unique recipes for distilled. Those are gonna be featured in the rule book. Nice.

所以会有一些独特的配方，只有购买游戏的人才能在规则书后面找到这些内容。

So there's gonna be some, unique ones that only, you know, people that buy the game will be able to have those in the back of the room.

戴夫，克里斯从一开始的垂涎欲滴，我觉得你现在已经让他完全陷入狂热状态了。

Dave, Chris went from initially drooling. I think you've worked him up into an absolute frenzy fervor.

这里发生什么事了？

What's going on here?

他是这样的。我觉得他几乎把克里斯心中所有想要看到的东西都偷来，放进了这款游戏里。听起来太棒了。我也很期待。我想试试这个东西。

He is. I think he stole, like, anything from Chris's heart that he wanted to see in existence and put it into this game. It sounds amazing. I'm looking forward to it too. I wanna try this thing.

我很期待你们大家都能尝试它。真的很有趣。当人们看到它时，会惊叹'哦，这里有

I'm I'm excited for you all to to try it. It's it's a lot of fun. And when people see it's, oh, there's

很多内容。

a lot.

但一旦你掌握了诀窍，特别是回归玩家，大家真的玩得很开心。太令人兴奋了。

But then once you get the hang of it, especially for returning players, people were really enjoying it. So excited.

关于扩展包我最后想问的是，在你之前两个规模稍小的扩展包中，我能看出里面包含了相当数量的新内容，比如会加入市场行的新卡牌等等。这次你们又这样做了吗？还是你们觉得市场行现在这样挺好，就直接在此基础上扩展？

The one thing I did last question about the expansion was that in your last two expansions, which were a little bit smaller in scope, I can tell, there was a decent amount of new content in it, new cards that would go into the market rows and stuff like that in those expansions. Did you do that here again? Or did you really say, you know what? The the market rows are fine how they are. Let's just build out from there.

不，我们增加了更多内容，但还有另一个方面——所有加入高级市场的新卡牌。所以我认为有12种新升级项，6个...其实是3种新原料（每种有两份复制），还有5种新物品。数量不算太多，但有相当数量的升级内容。

Nope. We added more, but there's also another thing, all the new cards that go into the, premium markets. So there's there's, I think, 12 new upgrades. There's six, well, three new ingredients and two copies each of them and, five new items. So there's not too much, but there's a decent amount of upgrades.

所有这些都有一个特殊图标，我们称之为叉车。当叉车被丢弃到卡车里时，意味着它后面的卡也会被丢弃。如果那张卡也有叉车图标，下一张也会被丢弃。所以现在那个牌组会变得相当大，应该能推动游戏进程。是的，有点

All of those have a special icon that, we call the forklift. When the forklift gets, discarded into the truck, that means the card behind it also gets discarded. And if that has a forklift, the next one too. So so that now that that deck is gonna be pretty big, it should move things along a Yeah. Little

非常酷。所以如果有人只是喜欢《蒸馏》的基础游戏并买了这个扩展包，即使还没准备好学习更复杂的规则，他们仍然可以获得一些可以直接加入游戏的内容

Very cool. So somebody could really just play if they just love the base game of distilled and they got this expansion. They're not ready to teach the heavier pieces to it. They're still gonna get some content to play within there that they can just throw right

进去。

in.

是的。事实上，蒂姆，我们设置规则的方式是说：朋友们，为什么不先试试双后熟化桶呢？就先做这个，因为这样你会觉得'这个我懂了，这个可行'，然后再进行下一步。正是因为这个原因。非常酷。

Yeah. In fact, Yeah, Tim, in fact, the way we're setting the rules up is we say, you know what folks, why don't you just try the double washbacks? And that's it first. Do that because then you're gonna, you're gonna, it's just gonna be, I get this, this works And then do the next thing for that exact reason. Very cool.

好吧听着，我们今天不是来推销你的游戏的，戴夫。

Well, listen. We're not here to sell your game today, Dave.

我们是...是的。是的。我们停下吧。

We're yeah. Yeah. Let's stop.

让我们开始比赛吧，我

Let's get to competing, I'm

开个玩笑。不，对这个非常兴奋。我我我知道我们有些听众也非常兴奋。这很有趣。

just kidding. No. Very excited about this. I I I know we've got some listeners that are very excited as well. It's funny.

我们在Discord上发布了本周末要玩的一些游戏图片。我们的一位非常忠实的长期听众Chris说，自从《蒸馏》在Board Game Arena上发布以来，他已经玩了超过500局。EGA。他是排名最高的玩家之一，我想他说自己是排名第六的《蒸馏》玩家。所以大家对这款游戏充满热情，对我们和这些游戏粉丝来说，能获得一些新内容将会非常令人兴奋。

We on our Discord, we posted about some of the game pictures we're we're playing this weekend. And one of our very regular listeners, longtime listeners, Chris, he said that he has played over 500 games of Distilled since it's been out on board game arena. EGA. And he is one of the top ranking team think he said he's six ranked distilled distilled player out there. So there's a lot of passion for for this game, and it's it's gonna be very exciting for us and for for these fans of the game to to get some new stuff to

用来玩。哦，太棒了。

do with. Oh, that's great.

是的。实际上我和Chris大概玩过二三十局游戏，我觉得每次都被彻底碾压得面目全非。所以Dave，外面有些人对这个游戏了如指掌。他们现在可能比你还懂这个游戏。

Yeah. I've actually played probably two, three dozen games with, Chris, and I think I've gotten absolutely crushed beyond recognition every single time. So you got some people out there, Dave, who who know this game inside and out. They they probably know the game better than you do at this point.

哦，确实如此。确实如此。有人联系我分享各种策略和问题，我就像，哦，是的。

Oh, they do. They do. I have people reach out to me with these, like, strategies and questions, and I'm like, oh, yes.

是的。点赞。是的。没错。干得好。

Yes. Thumbs up. Yes. That's right. Good job.

反正被彻底碾压也不是Chris的风格。就像，不管什么游戏其实都无所谓。

Chris isn't getting totally crushed your MO anyway. Like, it doesn't really matter what game.

哦，某种程度上确实如此。那那没关系。只要我玩得开心就行，对吧？

Oh, it kind of is. That's that's alright. As long as I'm having fun. Right?

没错。

That's right.

好的。很棒。那么，让我们开始讨论由主题驱动的机制吧。戴夫，我特别想了解是否有其他设计师激励着你，或者你会参考他们设计游戏的方式。但我想大家对这方面都挺感兴趣的。

Alright. Cool. Well, let's jump into our conversation about mechanisms that were driven by theme. And Dave, I'm particularly gonna be a little bit interested to know if if there are other designers that inspire you or that you kinda look to how they approach games. But I think we all have a little bit of interest in this.

我觉得有时候这方面做得非常好，有时候可能有点笨拙。人们过于关注主题，却忘记了游戏玩法同样重要。所以，你知道，我们不会在这次对话中设定太具体的目标，只是想听听你的一些想法。

I think sometimes it's done really well. Sometimes it's maybe a little clunky. People get too much into theme and and forget about how the gameplay is important as well. So, you know, we're not gonna get too too detailed in like a specific goal of this conversation other than just love to hear a little bit about some of your thoughts.

哦，我也是。我我已经准备好深入探讨了。是的，思考过这个问题。我很兴奋能分享一些关于设计师和游戏的想法。

Oh, me too. I am I am ready to dive in. Yeah. Thought about this. I'm I'm excited to share some ideas about designers, some games.

我经常喜欢思考这些东西，不仅仅是游戏本身，还包括它们创造的体验和回忆。所以，是的，很兴奋。

I oftentimes love to think about this stuff, not just around the games, but also kind of the experience and the memories that they create too. So, yeah, excited.

市面上有很多游戏，我认为它们在融合主题和机制方面做得非常出色。实际上，我觉得其中一点是，我喜欢把你视为... 等等，让我退一步说。我我要在这里百分之百诚实。在这个播客领域作为非专业人士的一个好处是，我可以完全对戴夫展现粉丝般的热情。你知道，我认为有少数设计师在这方面做得非常出色，就是这种主题和机制的融合，而且我很喜欢他们所有的作品。

There are so many games out there that I think do a really nice job of of melding the theme and the mechanisms. And actually, one of the things that I think, I I like to think of you well, actually, me go back a second. I'm I'm gonna be a 100% honest here. One of the nice things about being a nonprofessional in this podcasting zone is the fact that I get to go full fanboy on Dave. You know, I there there's a small handful of designers out there, I think, that that do a great job of doing this sort of thing, this kind of melding of of theme and mechanisms, and that, you know, I enjoy all the stuff they do.

戴夫，你就是其中之一。所以今天能和你交谈我超级开心。我非常喜欢你做的工作。

And Dave, you're one of them. So super happy to be talking to you today. I love the the work that you've done.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我认为同样属于这一范畴的其他人，伊丽莎白·哈格雷夫，我认为她在融合《展翅》系列以及今晚我要谈到的其他几款游戏方面做得非常出色。还有丹·哈利根，Kayenta Games出版了《执念》，我认为这是另一个很好的例子，将带有许多优秀机制的欧式游戏转化为主题体验。所以这样的例子有很多。我也认为很多时候人们过于注重机制本身，最终做出了一些略显笨拙的东西，或者试图强行加入一些不太合适的内容。它可能感觉有主题性，但并不能带来愉快的游戏体验。

Others that I think that kind of fall into that same zone, Elizabeth Hargrave, I think, does a great job of melding the the Wingspan series and a couple of, you know, other ones that I'm gonna talk about tonight as well. And Dan Halligan, Kayenta Games that publishes Obsession is another one that I think is a great job of of turning a a euro type game with a lot of good mechanisms into a thematic experience. So there's a there's a lot of them out there. I also think there are a lot of times when people go a little bit too heavy in the mechanism itself and end up making something a little bit more clunky or try to shoehorn something in there that doesn't doesn't quite doesn't quite make it work. It may feel thematic, but it doesn't quite make for a a enjoyable play experience.

我认为做得最好的之一——其实我已经提到了。我认为《执念》在融合这类机制方面做得非常出色。我从一些设计师笔记中读到，当丹·哈利根设计这款游戏时，他的理念是主题优先、主题优先、主题优先。他总是希望确保每个人都能感受到自己置身于故事中。对于不熟悉《执念》的人，或者从未听过这个节目、不知道我们经常讨论它的人来说，你在维多利亚时代的英格兰试图提升社会地位，所以一切都是关于邀请客人、赶走客人，以及为你的豪宅、你的庄园增添新东西。

One of the best that I'll I I actually already mentioned it. I think one that I think does a great job of meshing those types of mechanisms is obsession. And I think I've read from some of the designer notes that, when Dan Halligan was designing this, his thing was theme first, theme first, theme first. He always wanna make sure that everybody you felt like you were in the story here. And for those not familiar with Obsession who've who who have never heard this show before and don't know that we talk about it pretty regularly, you're in Victorian England trying to climb social status, and so it's all about inviting guests and kicking guests out and adding new things to your to your mansion, your your estate.

那款游戏的每一个部分都讲述了一个小故事。你获得这些具有功能的卡牌。它们作为一种资源的功能，但同时，每张卡牌都有个性，你必须拥有合适的仆人来处理前来参加你举办的派对的合适的人，例如。上周我们刚玩过一局。我们也玩了《执念》，所以这个也 fresh 在我脑海中。

And every single piece of that game tells a little bit of a story. You get these cards that have a function. They have a function as a sort of resource, but at the same time, one has a personality, and you have to have the right servant to handle the right person who's coming to the party that you're throwing, for example. So there was one card I we just played this last weekend. We played obsession as well, and so this one's also fresh in my mind.

有一张卡牌是一位地位非常高的绅士，所以他需要两个仆人来照顾他。还有一位地位很高的人，但他们鄙视需要服务的旧观念，所以你可以不用添加仆人就使用他们。我认为这种事情很棒，我认为《执念》是一个很好的例子，它以干净、有趣的方式做到了这一点，带来了愉快的体验，但又不会妨碍那种体验。你不会 constantly 想着为了主题而必须做某件事。一切都很自然。

And there was one card that was a gentleman of very high standing, and so he needed two servants to take care of him. And there was one who was a a person of very high standing, but they disdained the old fashioned notions of needing service, and so you get to play them without adding a servant. I I think that sort of thing is great, and I think Obsession is a great example of a game that does it in a way that's clean and fun and and makes for an enjoyable experience, but doesn't get in the way of that experience. You're not constantly thinking about, I gotta do this thing for the sake of theme. It all just works.

所以这对我来说是一个例子。

So that's one example for me.

是的。克里斯，《痴迷》是一个非常棒的例子，这正是我今晚想讨论的机制，因为这款游戏的设计师构建了一种我在其他游戏中从未见过的机制。基本概念是你选择面前的一个板块，触发一个事件，当你举办这个活动并引入合适的角色时，它就会讲述一个故事。这个机制并不特别复杂，但很独特，可能是设计师试图找到一种方式来表现这个目标。他通过正反面的设计改变了它，基本上把它变成了一款考验运气的牌组构建游戏。

Yeah. Obsession is is such a cool example, Chris, and this is exactly the mechanism I wanted to talk about tonight because it's a game where the designer like, they built something here that I've never seen in any other game. The the idea that you're basically choosing one of these tiles in front of you, making an event happen, and it tells a story as you're putting on that event and pulling the right characters in there. And it's not a super complicated mechanism, but it was unique and it's probably like he was trying to find a way to represent this goal. He changed it with distilled in the heads and tails and basically making it into a push your luck deck building game.

你知道，这种设计的存在真的很巧妙，因为它完全是为了突出主题。所以克里斯，《痴迷》很酷，是个好例子。我想到的另一个总是让我觉得非常有主题感的游戏是《木工传奇》。我很确定设计师真的在努力构建一些东西来展示木工手艺。他们用不同颜色的骰子来代表不同重量的木材，比如绿色代表较软的木材，黄色代表中等重量的木材，棕色代表较硬的木材。

You know, it's really neat that that exists because you just wanted to push into the theme. So, you know, obsession is cool, Chris, that's a good one. What I had in mind that always comes that that I always think about it makes it feel so thematic is woodcraft. And I'm pretty confident the designer really was trying to build something to show the wood crafting trade. And the way they represented that was with different colored dice represent different weight of wood, like, you know, green is softer wood and then yellow is kind of a mid weight wood and brown is a harder wood.

但骰子上的点数代表你正在处理的木材尺寸。所以如果你有一个小的骰子，一点或两点，那将是那种特定颜色或类型的一小块木材。但如果你需要做一个小东西，却有一大块木材，嗯，你不能用一块六英尺长的木板来做玩具船，对吧？所以你必须实际切割它。因此游戏中有切割木材、将其制成更小尺寸的机制。

But the pips on the die represent the size of the wood that you're working with. So if you have a small, you know, a small die, a one or two pip, that's gonna be a very small piece of wood of that particular color or that type. But if you need to make something small and you've got a big piece of wood, well, you can't use a, you can't use like a six foot long plank to make a toy boat, right? So you've got to actually cut it. So there's mechanisms to cut the wood, make it into smaller sizes.

如果你想做更大的东西，你可以把木材粘合在一起。我认为所有的机制都非常贴合主题。所以感觉它一定是主题先行的设计。而且，我认为它在这方面做得非常出色。

You can glue wood together if you want to make something bigger. And I just think everything about the mechanisms just fit into the theme there. So it feels like it had to have been driven theme first. And, I I think it does a great job with that.

我，我很高兴你提到这个，因为这一直在我的游戏清单上。我一直想玩《木工传奇》。我还没有机会玩。当我设计《制琴师》的时候，我一直在想，我需要玩，我需要玩这个游戏。

I I, I'm glad you said that because that is one that's been on my list. I've been wanting to play Woodcraft. I I haven't gotten a chance to yet. As I was designing Luthier, I I kept thinking, I need to play. I need to play this game.

所以我很高兴你提到了它，因为我其实已经有一两年没想起它了。所以我把它记下来了，我需要回头去看看这个游戏。

So I'm glad you mentioned that because I hadn't heard I hadn't thought about it for maybe a year or two, actually. So I I I wrote that down. I need to get back to that.

是的。信不信由你，在那款游戏中你确实会制作一些乐器。你制作的一些物品是乐器，尽管这不是游戏的整个目标或主题。但是的，我觉得你应该试试。这是一款非常困难的游戏，玩起来很有挑战性。

Yeah. You do actually make some instruments in that, believe it or not. There's some there's some of the objects that you make are instruments, although that's not the whole goal or or the theme of the game. But yeah, think you should check it out. It is a very difficult game, as far as like it's it's hard to play.

它并不是特别重，但要做好却非常困难，至少我一直这么觉得。但它真的很有趣，是我目前最喜欢的订单完成类游戏之一。我们看看鸡尾酒和蒸馏酒会怎么样，但到目前为止，这是我最喜欢的订单完成风格游戏之一，因为你实际上是在制作商品，而不仅仅是出去收集它们。我觉得这真的很棒。

It's like it's not super heavy, but it's very hard to do well at at least I found it that way consistently. But it is so much fun. I love it's one of the best order completion type of game so far. We'll see how cocktails goes with distilled, but so far, one of my favorite order completion styles of games because you're actually crafting the goods instead of just going out and collecting them. Think that's really neat.

是的，是的。我思考这个问题有一段时间了，对我来说，主题游戏的有趣之处在于——我想我之前也提到过——我真的尝试将主题游戏视为一种能将我和桌上的其他人带入某个情境的东西，不仅仅是一个愉快的夜晚，更是一次难忘的体验。说实话，对于一些非常有主题性的游戏，我常常会确保背景音乐与之匹配，因为我知道这会是一个让我铭记的游戏。

Yeah. Yeah. I was I was thinking about this for a while and I it's interesting because for me with with theme, I I think I'd mentioned this before too. I really try and think about thematic games as something that brings me brings me somewhere around the table and and the others playing with me, to not just, an enjoyable night, but also a memorable experience. I oftentimes will honestly for some of those very thematic games, I'll I know it's a a game that will stick with me because I end up making sure that I've got music going in the background that is that is matched with it.

我又做过——也许又是饮料的缘故，克里斯。但我做过，比如，你知道，搭配特定饮料。我做过主题美食之夜。我甚至做过，比如，装扮之夜，比如穿着打扮。所以想到《痴迷》，那会是个不错的选择。

I've I've done again, maybe it's the the drinks again, Chris. But I've done, like, you know, certain drinks that are paired with it. I've done food nights. I've even done, like, cost like dress, like dress up nights. So thinking of obsession, like, that'd be a good one.

我还没试过，但那会是个好主意。总之，回到正题，考虑到这一点，我最先想到的游戏之一是《舰长声纳》。不仅仅是我拥有并记住的经历，还有这个概念——不仅仅是我们（对于那些不知道的人，《舰长声纳》是一款实时策略游戏），所以事情正在发生。它最适合四人对四人，在桌子两边模拟两艘潜艇的情景。

I haven't done that, but that'd be a good one for that. So anyway but but back to that, I I think one of the ones that comes comes to mind most for me with that in mind, and I think about some of the people that have had over for that, is Captain Sonar. And the not just the experiences I've had and that I remember, but this concept that it's not just sure we're and for those that don't know, Captain Sonar Sonar is a real time strategy game. So this thing is is happen. It can best played where you've got four people on one side of a table against four people on the other side of the table, and you are simulating what it would be like if there were two submarines.

基本上就是在水下某个地方互相追逐。我们喜欢角色扮演，比如一方是美国人，另一方是别的什么。

Again, basically chasing each other underwater somewhere. We like to role play that, you know, maybe one's the Americans and one's that something else.

但我们知道是谁。我们知道。

But we know who it is. We know

不管是谁，反正另一方。而且，我们总是让《猎杀红色十月》在背景中播放，但我认为这是一种结合，归根结底是组件选择。我认为这是一个非常重要的元素，人们有时在机制和设计机制时会忘记，比如思考涉及哪些组件？玩家如何与棋盘和体验互动？

who Whatever. Someone else. And, let's just say we always have hunt for Red October going in the in the background, but I think it's it's a combination of, it gets down to like component choice. I think that's a really important element that people forget about sometimes with with, mechanics and designing mechanics is thinking about like what are the components that are involved with this? What How are are the players interacting with the board and the experience?

所以在这一年里，你拿着这些白板笔，涂涂画画又擦掉。你面前有个巨大的屏幕把你和对方队伍隔开，这样你就不能偷看——但你可以抬头看到对方队伍都低着头。你能听到喊叫声，这就是其中的体验。但我觉得为什么我认为这是主题导向机制的原因是，我能想象他们在设计这款游戏时，一定在思考如何创造这种紧张感，这种压力感——不是像被困在黑暗的衣柜或潜艇里那种感觉，而是时间压力。

So in this year, you're holding these dry erase markers and you're drawing and scribbling and erasing. You've got this giant screen in front of you that's hiding you from the other team so you can kind of or you shouldn't peek over, but you can look up and see the other team their heads down to You hear this yelling, so there's the experiences there. But then I think what also the idea of why I think it's kind of this theme forward mechanics is I can only imagine that, as they were play as they were designing this game, they were trying to think about, well, how can we create this, this feeling of this tense feeling, this feeling of maybe not necessarily trapped, like, you know, dark in a closet, you know, like a submarine, but this feeling of pressure. Right? So maybe not time pressure or maybe not, sorry, space pressure, but time pressure.

但同时他们给每个玩家分配的任务其实相对简单，却与我们通常认为的传统策略桌游机制截然不同。我们平时谈论的是木工技艺或调酒，我们在洗牌、组牌库。但在《船长声纳》中，你只需要倾听，或者只是在白板上画点什么。

But then also they're giving each player these tasks that are actually somewhat simple, but they're very disconnected from what we normally think of as a typical strategic board game mechanic. So, you know, we're talking about woodcraft or cocktails. We were shuffling cards and we're building a deck. But in Captain Sonar, you just have to listen. You just have to listen or you just have to draw something on a dry erase.

正是这些简单的操作将我们与日常生活中所做的事情联系起来。我认为这能让人们更投入游戏——至少对我来说是这样——也让你能与周围的人建立联系，共同体验游戏。所以我非常喜欢每次把朋友们聚在一起玩这个游戏，这在我的游戏室里总是如此。

And it's those simple things that connect us to kind of what we do in regular human life. Right. That I think connect people back to the game, at least for me that much stronger and allow you to, again, make that that connection, to the other people around you and to that experience too. So I just absolutely love every time I get friends together. It's always, in my in my game room.

大家总是问：你什么时候再组织一次《船长声纳》？我不知道。每次组织都让我筋疲力尽，但我热爱它。所以，是的，我会推荐《船长声纳》。不知道你们有没有机会凑齐八个人玩这个游戏。

It's always ever everyone's, when are you gonna have another captain sonar? I don't know. It's it takes takes the life out of me when I do, but I love it. So, yeah, that that's one I would say is captain Sonar. I don't know if any of you all have gotten a chance to get eight together and play that game.

戴夫，我大概一个月前在富勒顿的一个聚会上第一次玩了《船长声纳》。我讲过这个故事——我当时有点担心这个四对四的合作团队游戏，因为我们没有玩实时模式。组里有几个新手，所以我们玩了回合制。但你仍然能感受到那种嗯……

Dave, the I don't A month ago or so, I was at a meetup here in Fullerton, and I had a chance to play captain sonar for the first time. I told the story. I was kinda dreading this one, this, you know, this kinda co op team four versus four, and we didn't do the real time thing. There was a couple newbies in the group, so we did kind of the turn based. But you still feel that Mhmm.

在尝试与队友协调时的那种压力和配合感。虽然没有实时模式那么强烈，因为实时模式下你需要快速达成共识、迅速决策并尽快发动攻击。但是的，就是那种协调过程：'我们要这样做，但这个不行，所以检查一下那个'。指挥官和导航员等角色都在努力确定位置。

A little bit of that pressure and coordination as you're trying to work it out with your teammates. Not as much so because, you know, you wanna be quick and get on the same page and snap to a decision and be able to take your shot as soon as you can with the real time variant. But, yeah, just the coordination you're doing. Oh, we're gonna do this, but this isn't available, so let's check this. What do you say the commander and then the guy, the navigator, whatever it is trying to figure out the position.

其中有一些非常有趣的机制。这是一次不可思议的体验。我很想尝试四对四的实时模式，那听起来太棒了。

Just some interesting mechanisms going on. It was an incredible experience. I'd love to do the, four v four real time thing. That sounds amazing.

从主题上来说，我真的很喜欢这个设定：因为其他玩家可以听到你在说什么，你必须保持安静，就像在真实的潜艇战中一样，因为你不想让任何噪音传到他们的潜艇上帮助他们定位你。我觉得这真是太棒了。

To thematically, I really like to the idea that because the other players can listen to what you're talking about, you have to be quiet just like you would in a real sub battle because you don't want any of that noise to ping to their sub and and help them locate you. I think that's that's awesome.

没错。让我再给大家解释一下：一个人负责喊指令，也就是当船长，一个人负责喊方向。所以船长基本上就是说：向北、向南、向东、向西。然后另一个人在地图上绘制路线。所以船长不画图，是另一个人在地图上操作。

Exactly. So so one and I to explain it a little bit more for people, one person is calling out, so one person's the captain, and one person is calling out directions. So the captain is basically saying, go north, go south, go east, go west. And then someone else is drawing on a map. So the captain's not drawing on someone else is going on a map.

另一边，有一个无线电操作员通过设备监听，他们在地图上绘制路线试图追踪那艘潜艇。这真是一种非常棒的体验。亚当你说得对，我实在无法更推荐这种实时玩法了，但我也要说，这也是对人类心理的一种有趣观察，因为某些人真的会被推出舒适区，以至于他们根本不想再体验这种游戏——压力太大了。

On the other side, there's a radio operator that's listening just over the thing, and they're drawing on a map trying to track that sub. And so it's it's a may I mean, it's a such a great experience. And, you're right, Adam. Like, I I can't recommend the real time enough, but I will say it's a it's also a very interesting look into the kind of the human psyche, because what happens is, certain people just they it really does push them out of their comfort zone to the point where they just they don't wanna have that experience. It's it's too stressful.

我实际上会特意邀请10个人过来，9到10个人，因为我们真的建议大家中途休息。游戏时间很短，所以我们会轮换。玩完四轮后你就休息一下，因为强度实在太高了。

I actually deliberately invite 10 people over, nine or 10 people over because we actually recommend people take a break, because they're short. They're short. And so then we shift out. We rotate out. So then then you take a break after a fourth time because it's just so intense.

我知道这听起来好像我在描述某种比武战争，但它确实可能很激烈。有喊叫，有尖叫，但超级有趣。所以我高度、高度、高度推荐《船长声纳》，非常有主题性，令人难忘的体验。

I mean, I know it sounds like I'm gonna describing this like some sort of, like, jousting war, but I it's it's it could be intense. It's a the yelling, screaming. It's so fun. So I highly, highly, highly recommend Captain Sonar Sonar, very thematic, memorable experience.

好吧。对我来说，我认为必须尝试设计不同阶级间互动的游戏是《霸权：带领你的阶级走向胜利》。这款游戏模拟了国家与工人阶级、中产阶级和资本家阶级之间的互动。是的，就是有一副卡牌，你打出事件卡，基本上每个人都在这么做。但棋盘上有所有这些系统，这些系统如何整合在一起并相互影响，以及每个玩家拥有的不对称性和他们在专注于自己事务时试图达成的不同目标。

Alright. Well, a game for me that I think had to be as an attempt to design the interaction between different classes is hegemony, lead your class to victory. So this is a game that, you know, models the interactions between the state and the working class, the middle class, and the capitalist class. And, yeah, there's just a, you know, there's a a deck of cards and you're just playing an event, and then that's kinda what everybody's doing. But out there on the board are all these systems and the way all these systems integrate together and affect each other player and the ace sort of the asymmetry that each player has and the different things that they're trying to do while they're just focusing on their own thing.

也许他们只专注于自己的事情，但这会在全局产生许多连锁反应，影响所有其他方面。你们确实存在某种直接竞争，因为这些政策——每轮结束时你们都要对这些政策进行投票。但这再次模拟了国家中可能发生的情况：底层阶级可能希望这些政策得以实施。

Maybe they're just focusing on the their own thing. That's gonna have so many ramifications across the board in the way that affects everything else. You do have some direct sort of competition in that these these policies. You're gonna be voting for these policies at the end of each round, but, again, that sort of models what might happen in a state. The lower class is probably gonna want these policies to be enacted.

资产阶级会希望这些政策得以实施。而国家也在做自己的事情来试图影响并促成这件事。所以这绝对是一个经济学家团队，我认为还有政治学家参与，共同验证这件事，确保它作为一个不同阶级在国家中互动的模型看起来准确且可行。这就是霸权，带领你的阶级走向胜利。

The capitalist class is gonna want these policies to be enacted. And you got the state doing their own thing to try to influence this and make this thing happen. So I it absolutely was a team of economists, and I think political scientists got together and sort of cross checked this thing, make sure it seemed accurate and and viable as a model for the way different classes might interact in a state. That's hegemony, lead your class to victory.

所以每次我说这话时都感觉像被眼神刺伤并收到仇恨邮件，但我100%同意那个游戏中的机制如此真实地反映了这个世界。我以前说过。这是一个精致的游戏，他们成功将所有那些内容融入游戏中。如果你觉得有趣，这个游戏对我来说可能有点太真实了以至于无法完全享受。话虽如此，我也想再给它一次机会，因为我知道有这么多人绝对喜爱这个游戏。

So I feel like I get daggers from eyes and hate mail every time I say this, but I agree a 100% that the mechanisms in that game are so reflective of the the world. I've said it before. This is an is an elegant game, the way they manage to work all that stuff into the game. If you find that fun, this one is a little maybe a little bit too real for me to to fully enjoy. Now having said that, I also wanna give that another chance because I know that so many people absolutely adore this game.

我知道，亚当，你是喜欢的。但是，老兄，这里面有很多沉重感。那个过程中有很多沉重的东西。总之，我就说到这里。我我会让你先回应，我再继续说，因为我我确定你现在想对我大喊大叫。

I know, Adam, that you do. But, man, there's there's a lot of lot of heaviness in that. There's a lot of heaviness in that process. Anyway, I'll pause there. I I'll I'll let you react before I go on because I I'm I'm sure that you wanna yell at me now.

我只想提一点关于《霸权》的事，那就是我并不认为机制有那么强的主题性，因为你采取的大部分行动本质上都是在打牌。所以，如果说有主题的话，它是在讲述一个故事，但我不认为机制本身具有主题性。但我愿意承认并给予游戏肯定的一点显然是投票机制。我的意思是，你实际上在为政策投票，而且我认为所有这一切结合起来的方式确实感觉...我认为他们显然是从正常投票的主题出发设计这个机制的。

I just wanna mention one thing about Hegemony, and that is that I don't I don't so I don't even think that the mechanisms are that thematic because it's essentially most of the actions you're taking are playing a card. So, like, if there's theme there, right, like it's telling a story, but I wouldn't say that the mechanisms are thematic. But the one that I will give you that that I will give the game credit for is obviously the voting. I mean, fact that you are literally voting for policies and and, you know, I think the way that all comes together does feel I mean, I think they were clearly driving that mechanism from the theme of of normal voting.

这一点我同意你，蒂姆。我不认为有任何特定的机制。这是第一次。是的。确实没有哪个特定机制感觉必然具有主题性，但整个系统，所有机制结合在一起融合并创造出这个模型，这个阶级间互动的系统，我认为非常棒。

This one, I agree with you, Tim. I don't think there's any specific mechanism. That's a first. Yeah. There's there's not really any specific mechanism that feels them necessarily thematic, but just the whole the system, the way the whole all of the mechanisms together sort of blend and create this model, this system of interaction between class, I think, is fantastic.

是的。有趣的是你确实切中了我

Yeah. And it's funny you do cut I

我想说，蒂姆，你提出的观点，我会不同意，因为这不几乎适用于你在桌游中做的所有事情吗？我的意思是，除了关于桌游的桌游，你都是在掷骰子、打牌、做所有这些

I would argue that the point you're making, Tim, I mean, that is I would disagree with it because isn't that true of pretty much everything you're doing in board games? I mean, other than a board game about board games, you're rolling dice and you're playing cards and you're doing all these

这正是整个对话的重点，Chris，就是要指出那些真正具有主题感的机制亮点。比如，它们是由主题驱动的。嗯。我不确定《霸权》的机制本身是否通常以这种方式驱动。但你知道，我们似乎总是无法达成共识

That's exactly the the point of this entire conversation, Chris, is that call out the highlights of the of the the mechanisms that actually feel thematic. Like, they're they're driven by the theme. Mhmm. And I don't know that Hegemony the mechanisms themselves were typically driven that way. But, you know, we we never seem to be on the same page about

不。我们正在讨论的就是这个

the No. That we're discussing.

Dave Dave帮我们解决了这个问题

Dave Dave settled this for us.

解决这些蠢货的问题并达成一致

Settle take these morons down and agree with.

我是唯一没玩过的人。听起来可能很遗憾。嗯，这也是我清单上的另一款游戏。我其实已经来回发过邮件。不知道是联系的设计师还是出版社

I'm the only one that hasn't played it. Sounds like probably sadly. Well, and it's one that it's another one that's on my list. I I've actually emailed back and forth. Think I don't know if it's the designer or the pub.

可能是同一个设计师和出版商，说到，哦，你知道，我们都想有机会玩彼此的游戏，但还没找到机会。不过是的，我非常尊重他们，因为我确实听说过——不管他们是经济学背景，还是像你说的Adam，他们聘请了一些经济学家。我不记得你是否看过或拥有它。我觉得可能还有第二本配套的书。是的

It's probably the same designer and publisher and saying about, oh, we, you know, we both wanna be able to get a chance to play each other's games, haven't gotten a chance to yet. But yeah, I have a lot of respect for for them because I do I have heard whether it's they had background in, as economists or like you said, Adam, they hired a number of economists. I can't remember if you've if you saw it or if you have it. I think there's maybe like a second book that comes with it. Yeah.

是的。它几乎像学术文本一样。研究论文

Yeah. It's like an academic text almost. Research paper

或者类似的东西

or something like

那个。概念。说真的。

that. Concepts. Seriously.

是的，我认为

Yeah, I think

克里斯现在更不喜欢它了。

Chris dislikes it even more now.

好吧，那么我再次提出这个问题，虽然我没玩过。我不知道这是否合理，我要尝试描述的内容。但我想知道蒂姆对亚当所说的评论，这个游戏就是霸权游戏，他们如何呈现这些不同的经济概念，他们是否呈现得如此之好，以至于通过那些机制呈现的方式实际上就是现实中存在的方式？就像，没有其他方式可以呈现它。我不知道。

Well, well, so so here's my question again, having not played it. And I don't know if this would this makes sense, what I'm gonna try and describe. But I wonder what Tim says, comments about what Adam was saying, is is the game is hegemony the game and how they're representing these different economic concepts, do they represent it so well that the way they're represented through those mechanics is actually how it does exist in real life? Like, there's no other way to represent it than that. I don't know.

是吗？

Is it?

不。我我不认为那是真的，但我认为他们确实通过故事传达得足够充分，让你感受到主题，尽管这基本上是一个战争驱动的卡牌游戏。就像，我认为在你的回合中你打出两张牌

No. I I don't I don't think that's true, but I think they do the the Steli the story comes through enough where you do feel the theme, even though again, this is basically a war driven card game. It's like literally, I think you play two cards on your turn

好的。

Okay.

然后实际上在你的回合有张卡片，我忘了。但是卡片会告诉你将要发生什么。所以主题是通过

And do the actual there's card on your turn, I forget. But and and the card just tells you what's gonna happen. So the theme comes through on

这些

the

你采取的行动和那个主题，就像

the actions that you're taking and the theme that's Like

世界事件发生之类的。

world events happening or whatever.

没错。明白了。就是那种类型的事情。没错。每个派系都是独特的。

Exactly. Got it. That that type of thing. Exactly. With each faction being unique.

但我要告诉你一个有趣的地方是，我玩的那次，每个人都真正融入了自己阶级的角色，即使那不是他们通常的政治立场。就像，我是国家。我整个脑子里想的都是为国家需要而战。我能看到，你知道，克里斯在那边。他是中产阶级，他就觉得这些下层阶级的人一直在推高我的工资，我真是受够了他们。

But I will tell you one of the fun things about it is it the one time I played it was that everyone really got into the role of their class, even if that wasn't their their typical political stance. It's like, was the I was the the state. And I just like in my mind here the whole time, I'm just fighting for what the state needs. And I can see, you know, Chris is over there. He's the middle class, and he's just like, these lower class people just keep pushing up my wages, and I'm just sick of them.

而且，看到角色如何通过人们吸收主题的方式呈现出来真的很有趣，即使本质上只是在打牌。

And it's just it was it was funny to see how well the the, you know, the the character came through with the way that people absorb the theme, even if it was just cards being played essentially.

我认为这正是我们讨论的核心所在。将实际上没有主题性的东西，通过机制的处理方式赋予其主题性。因为就像我说的，在现实世界中，你不会通过抽牌来让事情发生。所以我们在游戏中所做的一切，除非你赋予它主题性，否则都会感觉缺乏主题。而我认为《霸权》做到了这一点。

And I would argue that that is kind of the the bread and butter of what it is we're talking about. Taking things that are not actually thematic and making them thematic through the use of the the way mechanisms are handled. Because like I said, none of this, you know, in the real world, you're not drawing cards to make things happen in real life. So that's all everything we do in games is gonna feel nonthematic unless you make it thematic. And I think that Hegemony does that.

这也让我想到了之前我们讨论时你提到的一点，蒂姆，我要回到戴夫的游戏，它提炼了你调制的鸡尾酒的“头”和“尾”。现在，如果有人觉得如果只是从牌堆抽两张牌，这个机制还会这么有趣吗？可能不会。这里面有一个经过深思熟虑的小调整。我不知道你是否这么想过，戴夫，但‘从顶部抽一张，从底部抽一张’这个事实，让我感觉很有主题性，尽管你仍然只是在抽牌，而不是简单地说‘现在从你的牌堆抽两张牌’。

And I also, this brings up a point that I was thinking about earlier as we were talking about something that you mentioned, Tim, and I'm gonna go back to Dave's game distilled the the, the heads and tails of a cocktail that you make. Now does anybody think that that would have been as interesting a mechanism if it was just draw two cards off your deck? Probably not. There's something about there was a there was a thoughtful little tweak in there. I I don't know if you thought about it this way, Dave, but the fact that you're drawing one off the top, one off the bottom makes it feel thematic to me even though you're still just drawing cards than if you just said, now take your deck, draw two cards off it.

我认为这感觉完全不同，而这种感觉正是让事物具有主题性的关键。完全同意。在某种程度上是的。

I think I think that feels entirely different, and the feel is what makes something thematic. Totally. To some degree.

说得好。非常好的观点。而且很有趣。偶尔我会遇到一些人，我

That's a good point. Very good point. And it is funny. Every so often I'll come across people that I

当我

when I

玩游戏时，他们只会从顶部抽两张牌，这也没问题。我就会说，嗯，是的，你可以这样，但你知道你也可以从顶部和底部各抽一张。就像，是的，我知道，但这和只从顶部抽是一样的吗？是的，是一样的。不过这完全没问题。

play, they'll just draw two cards off the top and which is fine. And I'll just say, well, yeah. And you could, but you just know you can draw it off at the top and bottom. Like, yeah, know, but it's the same thing as it yes, it is. And it's totally cool.

你说得完全正确，那里确实什么都没有。没有区别，但是，但有一点，我又回到这一点，关键在于你如何讲述故事，你知道吗，真的，那就是体验本身。

It's there's nothing there you're exactly right. There's no difference, but but there is something about, again, I get back to like, it's how you tell the story, you know, it's really, it's that experience.

所以那个人要被踢出我们的游戏小组了。你必须上下兼顾。没错。

So that person's getting kicked out of our game group. You gotta go top and bottom. That's right.

他们没有被邀请过来。

They're not they're not invited over.

我刚才说了一大堆其他东西，所以接下来这一轮我会很快提一下。但我已经剧透过了——伊丽莎白·哈格雷夫。我会快速提到她的几款游戏，我们之前讨论过游戏如何讲故事。我认为这是主题与机制的重要结合点，但也有一些机制本身就反映了某种现实。

I just said a bunch of other stuff, so I'm just gonna be really quick on mentioning my next kind of round here. But I I already gave a spoiler alert on this one. Elizabeth Hargrave. And I'm gonna mention a couple of her games really quickly, and we've talked before about games telling stories. I think that is a huge element of theme and mechanisms, but there's also just mechanisms that reflect some kind of reality.

以《展翅翱翔》为例，其中的卡牌以某种方式与其他卡牌或资源互动，实际上反映了鸟类在野外与环境互动的方式。我认为这创造了一个非常有趣的环境。类似地，她的另一款游戏《狐狸实验》，通过掷骰子希望获得想要的狐狸特征——这不就像现实生活吗？如果你繁殖动物，你会希望获得理想性状，选择具有目标性状的动物进行繁殖，然后接受结果，不断努力直到达成目标。所以我认为这些游戏几乎无缝地将主题融入其中，没有为了主题而强行添加任何元素。

In this case, I'm thinking of wingspan where you have cards that in some way, the the way that the card interacts with other cards or interacts with a resource or something actually reflects the way that birds interact with the environment out in the wild. And I think that that creates a really fun environment. Similarly, the Fox Experiment, another of her games, the idea of rolling dice and hoping that you get the right characteristics that you want in your foxes, I mean, isn't that just like real life? You know, if you you breed animals and you hope you get the right traits, you try to pick the animals to breed based on the traits you're looking for and then you you get what you get and then you just keep working on it until you get, you know, you accomplish whatever it is you're setting out to do. And so I think those are ways that almost seamlessly, there's nothing added on or tacked on there in those games for the sake of theme.

它只是如此深入地融入机制中，主题同时呈现，我认为这几乎是完美无瑕的。

It's just so baked into the mechanisms, the theme at the same time that it it's, you know, pretty flawless, I think.

我就知道这会是一场有趣的对话，但比我想象的还要有趣得多，因为我能感觉到时间快不够了。所以我要跳到另一类游戏，也就是那些基于主题设计机制的游戏——我有两个例子。一个在机制上做得很好，但主题并不完全贴合，你能找到主题不太匹配的地方；另一个游戏试图做几乎相同的事，主题性很强，却因此变得没那么有趣。

Now I knew this was gonna be an interesting conversation, but it's it's gonna be way more interesting than I thought because I can tell we're gonna run out of time here. So I'm gonna jump to another kind of, category of of, this type of game, and that is games that do like, I've got I've got two examples. One that does a mechanism based on theme, I think very well, but it is not fully thematic. Like you can find the area where the theme doesn't quite fit. And another game that tried to do almost the same thing and get it really thematic, but it's less fun because of that.

首先，《Viticulture》是Stonemaier Games推出的工人放置游戏，由Jamie Stegmeier设计，主题是葡萄酒酿造。实际上它甚至有点像《Distill》的元素，包含陈化机制。游戏中你可以将压榨槽中的葡萄酿成葡萄酒，然后用来完成订单或销售瓶装葡萄酒。具体方式包括将红葡萄酒葡萄酿成红葡萄酒，白葡萄酒葡萄酿成白葡萄酒，而要制作起泡酒，我认为需要使用两颗红葡萄和一颗白葡萄。

So first of all, Viticulture is a worker placement game designed by Stonemaier Games, Jamie Stegmeier designed this and it's about winemaking. And in fact, it even has Dave, a little bit of an element like Distill does, which is an aging mechanism. But one the things you can do in this game is you can take grapes that are in your crush pads and then you can turn them into wine, which you will then use to fulfill orders or sell wine, sell bottles of wine basically. The one of the ways you do that is you can take the red wine grapes and turn them into red wine. You can take the white wine grapes and turn them into white wine, but to make a sparkling wine, I think it's you use two red grapes and one white grape.

虽然现实中起泡酒并不是这样酿造的——至少我认为不是，但这个简单明了的系统能用两种基础资源制作更复杂的订单。类似地，我们上周玩了《Scoville》，这是一款关于收获辣椒、制作辣椒酱并完成辣椒订单的游戏。这款游戏的辣椒组合系统复杂到令人难以置信，各种辣椒的组合方式多到让我难以理解如何实现自己的目标。

Now that's not actually how sparkling wine is made. At least I don't think it is. I'm pretty sure that's not the case, but it's a very easy, simple system for making more complex order with these two basic resources. Likewise, we played Scoville this last week, and this is a game about harvesting and making chili peppers and basically fulfilling chili pepper orders or making sauces or, you know, those types of things. And this game gets so incredibly complex with how many different combinations of peppers you can put together to make different types of peppers that I found it to just really be hard for me to wrap my head around, like how to get the things done that I wanted to do.

比如你需要在这片田地移动来采摘辣椒（具体细节我们下周播客会详聊），必须像在辣椒迷宫中规划路径一样，确定当回合要收获哪些辣椒。最复杂的是游戏里真的有一张图表——就像辣椒组合的电子表格。

Like, okay, you've got to move on this field in order to pick up chili peppers. And again, we'll talk more about this next week in our con episode, but in this one, move around this field to pick up chili peppers and you've got to kind of like trace out this movement through this maze of peppers to figure out which peppers you're gonna harvest that turn. But it was so complicated because there's literally a chart, a spreadsheet of all the peppers that you combine.

我正想说这个。就是个表格，辣椒表格。没错。

I was gonna say that. It's a spreadsheet. A chilly spreadsheet. Yeah.

这种设计虽然很有主题感，但反而削弱了游戏乐趣。我不确定如果没有这个机制游戏会变成什么样——毕竟这几乎是游戏的核心玩法。但我认为桌游适当简化、兼顾主题性但不过度深入可能是更好的选择。而《Scoville》在这方面可能有点过犹不及。

And so they went really thematic, but it kind of took away the fun of it. And I you know, I'm not sure what that game would have been if it didn't have that. Like, that's kinda what the whole game is. But I do feel like sometimes simplifying and keeping, like, fall leaning into the theme, but not too much, is probably a good thing with with board games. And and that's a case where I think Scoville just pushed a little bit too far.

有意思，我同意。我都忘了《Scoville》这款游戏，多年前玩过，好像最近刚重印发行了。

Yeah, that's funny. Would agree. I'd forgotten all about Scoville. I'd played that a number of years ago and I think they just maybe just re released it or something.

我们玩的是第二版，不知道和你当年玩的版本有多大区别。

Yeah, this was the second edition we played. So I don't know how different it was from one that you played a while ago.

嗯，是的，我玩过原版，我记得当时想到了辣椒电子表格。我至今还记得那个。改天我得给你发一张最初蒸馏原型的图片，那也是一个电子表格。你得看看那个电子表格，挺有趣的。

Well, yeah, I I played the original, and I I remember thinking chili spreadsheet. I still remember that. I'll have to sometime I'll have to send you a picture of one of the original distilled prototypes, and it was a it was a spreadsheet too. You'll have to see that spreadsheet ahead. It was pretty funny.

我有一个想法，如果合适的话，提出来——我认为，Tim，在那个方向上，确实要努力深入主题，让主题真正驱动游戏的其余部分。现在我想先打个预防针。我不想冒犯任何人，如果这是他们最喜欢的游戏。我只玩过一次，想再试试。甚至不确定当时教得是否正确。

I've got one, if that's okay, to toss in there that is, I think, in in that line, Tim, that has that idea of, really trying to lean hard into theme, really letting theme drive the rest of the game. And now I'm I I wanna give a caveat here. I don't wanna offend anyone if if they let this is their favorite game. I've only played it once, and I wanna give it another try. And I'm not sure if even I was taught it correctly.

但我要在这里打断你一下，Dave，告诉你我们在这个节目里经常冒犯别人。这就是诚实地谈论你的爱好的本质。说得好。说得好。所以完全没问题。

But I'm gonna pause you there, Dave, and just let you know that we offend people all the time on this show. That's that's the nature of being honest about your Good point. Good point. About your hobby. So it's totally okay.

这是一个安全

This is a safe

的安全空间。是的。没错。哦，我会成为那个收到仇恨邮件的人，所以你

safe space here. Yeah. That's right. Oh, I'll be the I'll be the one that gets the hate mail, so you're

你说得对。那是

you're right. That's

对的。确实如此。

right. It's true.

是的。各位，是蒂姆让我说的

Yeah. Everybody, Tim made me say

这句话。好吗？

this. Alright?

我就这么告诉你吧。不，说正经的，这是我最喜欢的主题之一。这是我一直想玩很久的游戏。当时是在一个展会上，所以我报名参加了。

I'm just gonna tell you that. No. To serve it up, it's a favorite theme of mine. It's a game I had been wanting to play for a long time. This was at a con, so I had signed up for it.

就像，我拿到了票，我觉得没问题。我已经准备好去了。这就是《西部传奇》。对于可能不太熟悉的人来说，《西部传奇》是一款类似开放沙盒的西部游戏。很多人可能会说这是《荒野大镖客》的桌游版。

Like, I had gotten a ticket, and I was alright. I was ready to go. So this is Western Legends. So Western Legends, for people that that might not be familiar, kinda open sandbox western game. Many people might say Red Dead Redemption, the board game, perhaps.

我是《荒野大镖客》的超级粉丝。所以这完全是一款开放沙盒类型的西部游戏，你在游戏中基本上扮演某种亡命之徒。我觉得这个游戏有趣的地方在于，它的各种机制之间似乎没有任何 cohesive 的结构，反而只是很多小游戏，这些小游戏似乎不能很好地协同工作或平衡。每个小游戏都深受主题驱动。很明显，你可以玩各种小游戏，比如玩扑克或进行枪战，基本上就是掷骰子看谁赢。

I'm a big fan of Red Dead Redemption. So very much an open sandbox y type of game, a western, where you are essentially an outlaw of sorts. What I found interesting about this game was there really didn't seem to appear to be any cohesive structure to interlocking mechanisms, but instead just lots of mini games, that didn't seem to appear to to work well together or balance well together. And each one was driven by heavy themes. So, obviously, you could, like, play mini games, like, just play poker or do a shootout where you're just kinda rolling dice and seeing who wins.

有通缉系统。还有，你知道的，淘金。又是掷骰子。这是一个有趣的概念，我能感觉到开发者和设计者真的在追求一种重主题的体验。但感觉他们就像是在胡乱炖一锅汤，最后虽然里面很多小东西味道不错，但整体吃起来并不好吃。

There's wanted tracks. There's, you know, pan for gold. Again, roll some dice. It was just an interesting concept of I could tell that the developers, the designers really were going for a heavily theme I think, heavily thematic experience. But it just felt like they were just kinda trying to throw almost like a stew together that at the end of the day didn't lots of little things tasted good, but altogether just didn't didn't taste very good.

整体上说不通。我知道可能有些人很喜欢这个游戏，但对我来说就是感觉不对，尤其是从一个感觉平衡的游戏体验角度来说，不过也许适合特定的受众。不知道你们有没有人玩过这个游戏，但确实是非常非常非常奇怪的体验。这是肯定的。《西部传奇》。

Didn't make sense altogether. And I know some people maybe love that game, but it just didn't ring true to me, especially from kind of a a game experience that felt balanced, but maybe with the right audience. I don't know if any of you all have played that game, but very, very, very weird experience. That's for sure. Western Legends.

《西部传奇》。是的。戴夫，你提到机制相互融合这一点很有意思。我认为任何游戏中如果存在一个独立的机制，它孤立存在且对系统其他部分没有影响，就会立刻让人觉得缺乏主题感。这对设计师来说肯定是个难题。

Western Legends. Yeah. So that's an interesting point you bring up, Dave, about the mechanisms commingling with each other. I think any game where there's just an independent mechanism that's just out there on its own and has no effect on the rest of the the system, it just feels unthematic right off the bat. So that's gotta be a difficult thing as a designer.

我想象中这些机制应该以某种方式相互交织，你知道，从独立的机制中创建一个感觉像主题的系统。所以我认为，再次回到《霸权》这个话题，这是它做得好的一个方面。而《西部传奇》中的某些机制就显得有些割裂。任何这样的游戏都会让我觉得奇怪，就像你说的那样。

I would imagine having these mechanisms intertwine in a way, you know, creating a system from individual mechanisms that feel like a theme. So I think, again, going back to hegemony, that's one thing that it does. And here, you've got some mechanisms, Western Legends that are just kind of disparate. And any game that's like that feels weird to me, like you said.

是的。每个机制单独看都很有主题感，但除此之外，很难将它们融合在一起。

Yeah. Each one kind of felt thematic, but then beyond that, it was tough to bring them together.

你明白吧？是的。不管有没有主题性，我认为当一个游戏给你一堆不同的小游戏却没有以有意义的方式将它们联系起来时，对我来说，这就不像一个完整的体验。所以这很有趣。我知道《西部传奇》但从没机会玩过。

You know? Yeah. Thematic or not, I think when a game gives you a bunch of different mini games but doesn't tie them together in a significant way, to me, it it just it doesn't it doesn't really feel like a full experience. So that's that's interesting. I knew about Western Legends and had never had a chance to play it.

听起来这是一个非常酷的主题体验，特别是你能抽到的所有牌都有扑克符号，你实际上可以玩扑克手牌。这一直让我很感兴趣，不过，我很感谢你替我们试玩了，这样我们就不用亲自尝试了。所以，

And it sounds like it's this really cool thematic experience, especially the idea that all the cards that you can draw have poker symbols, you can literally play hands of poker. That always got me intrigued, but, I'm glad to, thanks for trying it for us so that we don't have to. So,

戴夫，你玩过《马拉喀什》吗？因为你这样描述时，让我想起了《马拉喀什》，我觉得这是个非常有趣的游戏，其中不同的小游戏不一定超级有主题性，但...不，我没玩过。我觉得这个描述很贴切。

Dave, have you played Marrakesh? Because that's when you describe that, it makes me think of Marrakesh, which I think is a very fun game where the the different little mini games aren't necessarily super thematic, but No. I haven't. I think it fits well.

好吧。不过我得去试试那个游戏。

Okay. I'll have to try that out though.

它的主题性非常强。你把人类从塔上扔下去，他们在塔里撞来撞去。然后你把他们堆成一堆，在你的玩家身上进行小迷你游戏。

It's in it's incredibly thematic. You take human beings and you drop them down a tower, and they bonk around down this tower. And then you put them in piles to do the little mini game on your player.

不，克里斯，我认为这是个很好的观点。我觉得马拉喀什实际上在将迷你游戏串联起来方面做得不错。比如，你在一个区域做的大部分事情，都需要获取那种资源，然后才能在另一个区域做某事。但设计马拉喀什的Stefan Feld也设计了图拉真。

Well, no, Chris. I think that that's a great call out. So and I think Marrakesh actually does a decent job of tying the mini games together. Like, most of the things you do in one region, you have to get that resource so that then you can do something in another region. But Stefan Feld who designed Marrakesh also designed Trajan.

而我觉得那个游戏正好相反。它非常相似。就像棋盘周围有六个不同的迷你游戏，但它们之间几乎没有任何联系。我真的很不喜欢那个，我想原因和戴夫说的一样。有点跑题了。

And that one I felt like was the opposite. It was it was very similar. It was like six different mini games around the board, but there was virtually no connection between them. And that I really didn't enjoy, I think for the same reason Dave was talking about. Getting off getting off the the topic there a little bit.

明白了。

Gotcha.

好的。我有几个游戏要扔出来摆在桌面上。《Baseball Highlights 2045》。我经常谈论它。在很多方面，这更像是一个棒球赛季的模型，而不仅仅是一场比赛，但我觉得它在实施方式上两者都做得不错。

Alright. I have a couple games I'm gonna just throw in there and get them out there on the table. Baseball highlights 2045. I talk about it all the time. In a lot of ways, this is more of a model of a season of baseball rather than just a game, but I think it does both kinda well in the way that you enact it.

你从一个基础首发球队开始。这是个牌组构筑游戏。你有这支球队——红袜队、洋基队、道奇队或任何队，他们有一些还不错的卡牌。里面有一些老将和一些新秀。每个球员我都会谈谈他们的收入。

You start off with a a basic starter team. It's a deck builder. You have this team Red Sox or the Yankees or the Dodgers or whoever, And they have some okay cards. They got some veterans and some rookies in there. And each one of them I'm gonna talk about the revenue.

每个球员都有可能带来一定数量的收入。所以你一次打出一张手牌，共六张，你知道，在这个小棒球比赛中对决时，他们可能会给你一些得分或抵消对方的进攻。无论谁赢了比赛，谁输了比赛，你从一个三场迷你赛季开始来构筑你的牌组，打造你的球队。每场迷你比赛结束后，你统计你的收入，然后可以去市场挑选球员，帮你填补阵容中的一些空缺和漏洞。你是想要那个能立即带来强大进攻的球员，还是想要那个深受球迷喜爱、能为接下来的比赛或赛季带来大量收入的球员，这取决于你怎么看。

Each one of them has a certain amount of revenue they might bring in. So you play in a hand of six cards one at a time and you, you know, maybe they'll give you some runs or counteract the other guy's stuff as you're kinda dueling in this little baseball game. Whatever somebody wins the game, somebody loses the game, you start with a three game mini season to sort of build your deck, build your team. At the end of each of these mini games, you count up your revenue and you get to go to the market and you pick up players that are gonna help you fill some gaps, fill some holes in your lineup. And do you want the guy that's gonna give you some huge offense right away or you want the guy that's a fan favorite and is gonna bring in a bunch of revenue for upcoming game or upcoming seasons, however you wanna look at it.

所以在游戏初期，你需要在收入和进攻、防守、投球和击球之间做出一些选择。我认为这种方式非常有主题感。在一场游戏中，你会进行这个三场迷你赛季，所以总是有三场比赛和一些购买机会。然后你会进行一个系列赛，一个七局四胜制的世界大赛。所以你会全程对决，并且需要观察对手选择了什么，以便在选秀中做出应对。

So there's some choices early on between revenue and offense, defense, pitching, and hitting that you have to make. So I think that's incredibly thematic in the way you do that. And over the course of a game, you know, you play this three game mini season, so there's always three games with some chances to buy. And then you play, a series, a best out of seven world series. So you you're gonna duel the whole way, and you're kinda watching what the opponent's picking up so that you can counteract that in this draft.

这就是《棒球精彩时刻'25 2045》。在某些方面很有主题感，但也很奇怪，你知道，这些都是抽象化的，所以在其他方面又不太有主题感。

That's baseball highlights '25 2045. So thematic in some ways, but weird, you know, these are all abstracted, so not thematic in other ways.

不过，亚当，实际上我想在这方面表扬你一下，因为这是一个很好的例子，说明两个人同时出牌很奇怪。他们基本上就像同时在中间击球和接球，就像在击打它。

Well but but, Adam, actually, wanna I I wanna give you some praise on this one because this is a great example of where it's weird that, you know, two people play a card at the same time. So they're essentially, like, both hitting and catching at the center, like, hitting it.

是来回交替的。

It's back and forth.

是来回交替的。没错。但它是同时进行的，而且你们只在一个有跑垒员的板子上玩。对吧？还是你们各自有两个板子？

It's back and forth. Yeah. But it it's both at the same time, and you're only playing on one board with with runners. Right? Or do you both have two boards?

提醒我一下多少钱

Remind me how much

这里你们在一个板子上。每个人

Here you're on board. Each person

你们两人都会有自己的棋盘。就这样。对吧？所以你们是同时在玩，但用的是两个不同的棋盘。嗯哼。

You'll both have boards. That's it. Right? So you're both playing at the same time, but on two different boards. Uh-huh.

但就像如果他们试图完全贴合主题，那么就会变成一个人玩完整的一局，你知道，完整的一轮或者什么，完整的一局比赛，然后下一个人再轮换上场。我不太懂这些棒球术语。不，你说对了。但我的意思是

But it's like if they had if they had tried to make it exactly thematic, then you would have had like one person playing the whole, you know, the whole, you know, round or whatever, the whole inning, and then the next person switches out. I don't have all this baseball terminology. No. You nailed it. But my point being

说得好，蒂姆。

Nicely done, Tim.

我的意思是，这显然是一款主题优先设计的游戏。有人决定要做一款关于棒球的游戏，然后他们投出了——看到我的双关了吗？他们投出了一些主题元素，让游戏运行得更顺畅一些。我认为桌游大多数时候都应该这样处理。

My point being that they that this was clearly a game that was designed the theme first. Someone decided they wanna make a game about baseball, and they they pitched see what I did there? They pitched some of the the theme out to make it run a little bit smoother. And I think that's how board games should probably handle the most of the time.

好的。酷。这就是《Baseball High 25》。我想提到的另一款是《Barrage》。我们这周末也有机会玩了这款游戏。

Okay. Cool. That's Baseball High 25. The other one I wanna mention is Barrage. So we had a chance to play this one this weekend as well.

游戏的基本概念是水往低处流。你要用水坝拦截水流。通过抽水产生能量，创造大量能量并获得分数。虽然存在一系列相互连接的水坝，进行某种高风险的水滴控制游戏可能有点不现实。但在更大尺度上，水流控制以及谁拥有下游使用权绝对是现代社会的现实问题。

So it starts with the idea that water flows downhill. You're gonna trap it in dams. You're gonna pump some energy out and create a bunch of energy and get some points. So the idea that there exists a series of interconnected dam somewhere in some kind of high stakes game of water droplet control might be a little implausible. But on a larger scale, the flow of water and who has downstream access is absolutely a modern day issue.

所以这个主题，再次说明，还是有点意思的。再来谈谈里面的资源设定。我喜欢你挖掘得越多，你的水坝容量就越大，你在山上或上游建得越高，通常能产生的能量就越多。你在建造时资源会被占用的设定也很巧妙。同样，他们为此牺牲了一点主题性。

So the theme here, again, it kinda works. And then let's talk about the resources in here. I like that the more you excavate, the more your dam can hold, and the higher up the mountain or upstream you build, the more energy in general you can produce. So the idea that your resources are tied up while you're constructing is also kinda neat. Again, they sacrifice a little bit of theme for that.

如果你建造一座水坝，你的资源会在四五个回合内消失，然后才会回来。那么这到底是如何运作的呢？我...我不知道。你可以立即建造它，但你的资源却被隐藏起来了。总之，这就是《Barrage》，一款为了良好游戏性而牺牲了一点完美主题的游戏。

If you build a dam, your resources go away for four or five little moves, and then you get them back. So how does that quite fit in? I I don't know. You get to build it instantly, but yet your resources are hiding away. Anyway, that's Barrage, a game that sacrifices a little bit of perfect theme for some good gameplay.

任何生活在西部的人都知道，你会花更多时间在外面思考水资源在哪里以及谁得到了它，比你原本想要的要多得多。所以我认为这里面有一些真实的、你知道的、现实世界的东西在起作用。

Anybody who lives in the West knows you spend way more time out and thinking out here about, you know, where the water is and who's getting it than than you would otherwise want to. So I I think there's some real, you know, some real world stuff going on there.

而且非常有主题性的是你如何放置你的工人，我会...我们会称之为工人放置来执行你正在进行的行动。亚当，你同意这一点吗？

Plus very thematic how you're placing your workers and I will we'll we'll call this worker placement to take the actions that you're doing. Don't would you would you agree on that, Adam?

哦，天哪。蒂姆，这是一款...这是一款行动点选择与工人放置的混合机制，这就是我要说的。

Oh my gosh. Tim is a it's a it's a action point selection worker placement hybrid is what I'm gonna go with here.

好吧。那么说到这里，我确实想插话谈谈几款我认为有点过于突破边界的游戏，至少对我的口味来说是这样。我认为，你知道，我们都以不说这些游戏不好为荣，但它们在某种程度上对我们不起作用。所以这些游戏在尝试融入机制方面对我来说有点过于激进了。而且这些，至少我要提到的前几款，实际上是我相当喜欢的游戏。

Alright. So on so on that note, I did wanna jump in with, a couple of games that I think push the boundaries a little bit too much, at least for my taste. Then I I think, you know, we all take pride in, you know, not saying these games are bad, but they don't work for us in some way or another. And so these are ones that sort of push the envelope a little bit too far for me in terms of trying to work in the mechanisms. And these, at least a couple first ones that I'm gonna mention, are actually games that I that I like quite a bit.

第一款是《Nemesis》。Awakened Realms以制作非常有主题性和故事性的游戏而闻名，《Nemesis》就是一个很好的例子。我在这款游戏中有过一些非凡的游戏体验。但任何玩过它的人都知道，每次你轮到你行动时，你都要进行一次噪音掷骰。其理念是你制造了一些噪音，然后一个外星人跳到你头上，因为它们现在知道你在哪里了。

The first one is Nemesis. Awakened Realms is known for trying to make very thematic games and very storytelling ish games, and Nemesis is a great example of that. I've had some exceptional play experiences with this game. But anybody who's played it knows that every time you take a turn, you do a noise roll. And the idea there is you make some noise and an alien jumps down on your head because now they know where you are.

天啊。这款游戏中有太多的噪音掷骰了，到最后你只想说，我们这次能不能跳过噪音掷骰直接继续？我的意思是，这很不幸，因为如果没有这个机制，游戏在主题上会失去一些东西。我仍然喜欢这款游戏，但我希望它不像现在这样让人感到如此疲惫和磨人。另一款是《蝙蝠侠：哥谭市编年史》。

Holy cow. There are so many noise roles in this game that by the end of it, you're just like, can we just skip the noise role this time and just and just move on? I mean, it's just it's unfortunate because this game is you'd lose something thematically without that. And I still enjoy the game, but I wish that wasn't quite as much of a beat down as in a grind as it is. The other one is Batman Gotham City Chronicles.

这个游戏我愿意给予很大的宽容，因为我是DC漫画的粉丝。他们准备了这本大约20页的图标和修饰符手册，详细说明了各个角色的特性——比如这个小图标代表他不会使用枪支，那个图标代表他不会杀人，不会使用致命武力。

Now this one, I'm willing to cut a lot of slack for because I'm a DC Comics fan. And so the fact that they've got this, like, 20 page book of icons and modifiers for all these characters, like, this is what this little icon means. It means he won't use a gun. This one means he won't kill somebody. He won't use lethal force.

我的意思是，如果你热爱这些内容，是个真正的粉丝，你会很享受这些细节。但如果你不是，可能会觉得有点过于繁琐。所以在很多主题游戏中，你对主题的兴趣程度往往也决定了你能多大程度容忍那些可能不如节目前半段讨论的游戏那样完美融合的主题元素。

I mean, stuff like that. You know, it's if if you love this stuff and if you're a if you're a true fan, then you're gonna enjoy that. And if you're not, you're probably gonna think it's just a little bit too much. So I think in, you know, a lot of these thematic games, how interested you are in the theme is also gonna kinda lead to how tolerant you are of people working in thematic elements that might otherwise not be as, you know, integrated as some of the games that we were talking about in the earlier part of the show.

没错。这些都是很好的例子，Chris。我想最后补充一个类别：那些通过实体组件来体现主题的抽象游戏。我想说的是《Netrunner》这款集换式卡牌游戏，之前应该是Fantasy Flight出版的。

Yeah. Those are great examples, Chris. I wanna mention just one last category here for me, and that was games where the the the physical components help represent the theme, even though it's an abstract game. And the game I wanna talk about is Netrunner, the trading card game. And this was, I think, published by Fantasy Flight a while back.

他们后来停止出版了，但其他公司接手并持续推出新内容。《Netrunner》的核心概念是——

They stopped publishing it, but somebody else has picked it up and is making new content. But Netrunner, the idea being

你说的是《Android Netrunner》吗？

Android Netrunner, is that what you're talking about?

对，没错。抱歉，是《Android Netrunner》。这是一款不对称的卡牌对战游戏，

Yes. Yes. Sorry. Android Netrunner, if that yeah. And so the idea being that what, it's a head to head card battler type of game, asymmetric though.

一方扮演黑客（称为Netrunner），另一方扮演试图推行公司议程的企业。黑客则试图阻止他们——我猜这些大概是邪恶企业？或者黑客才是反派？具体设定我不太确定。但关键是这些议程牌会洗入企业的牌库中。

So one side is always playing the hackers or they're called Netrunners. The other side are corporations that are trying to get their corporate agendas pushed out and the hackers are trying to stop them. Presumably they're evil corporations, I guess. Or the hackers are evil, I'm not really sure in this case. But bottom line is that the agendas are kind of shuffled into the corporation's deck.

所以每一回合，你手中都会有一定数量的卡牌。双方的情况略有不同。但黑客试图攻击的服务器，总是有两个。一个是公司的手牌。所以如果我能进入你的手牌区，我就能随机拿走其中一张卡。

And so every turn, you're gonna have a certain number of cards in your hand. Each side is a little bit different. But the servers that the hackers are trying to attack, there's always two servers. One is the corporation's hand. So if I can get to your hand, I can randomly take one of those cards.

我可以四处查看，在你手牌中搜索可能是议程的卡牌。但当然，作为公司方，你不会想把议程留在手牌里，因为你知道手牌容量并不大。议程可能存在的另一个地方——也被视为服务器——就是玩家的牌库。所以在我面前，我基本上是在向桌子另一侧的实体物件移动，比如对方的手牌和牌库。但当然，牌库是一大堆卡牌，所以我能否从中抽到议程并获得分数完全是随机的。

I can look around, search for something in your hand that might be an agenda. But of course, you're motivated as a corporation to not keep your agenda there because, you know, there's not a very big hand. The other place an agenda could be, and that is considered a server is the player's deck. So right in front of you, I am basically making moves towards physical things on the other side of the table, like the other player's hand and their deck. But of course, the deck is a big pile of cards, so it's random whether or not I'm gonna draw an agenda off there and get the points for finding it.

因此更可能找到议程的方式是：公司可以设置额外的服务器。这然后就变得几乎像一条通道对战游戏。他们会在面前放出一张卡牌，那就是一个服务器，但这个服务器可能有防火墙，可能有陷阱。所以如果我尝试入侵它，你随机翻开卡牌，如果不是议程，很可能是什么会让我花费大量金钱的东西，我必须突破它才能真正拿到后面的卡牌。他们最终可以不断叠加这些卡牌，打造出一个需要我突破四五张卡才能通过的服务器。

So the more likely way you're gonna find the agenda is that the corporation can set up additional servers. And then this turns into what looks as almost like a lane battler. So they put a card out in front of them, and that's a server, but that server could have firewalls, it could have traps on it. So if I go and try to hack it, and you randomly reveal the card, if it's not the agenda, it's probably something that's gonna cost me a lot of money and I'll have to fight through to actually get to the card behind it. And they can ultimately start pushing up these cards and making a server that's got like four or five cards I gotta get through.

但为了得分，他们必须让公司的议程通过那个服务器并进入世界。所以他们需要把一张卡放在那个区域，然后慢慢将其在服务器中推进。这用实体方式呈现了出来。总之，我认为他们用这种处理方式很巧妙，你知道，这仅仅是卡牌，仅仅是卡牌上的文字，但他们给了我们实体化的东西。每当我作为黑客与公司对抗时，我就会想：好吧，那就是服务器。

But what they've gotta do in order to get their points is get the corporate, their agendas through that server and out into the world. So they have to put a card in that space and then they slowly move it up the server. And so that's represented in a physical way. Anyway, I think that's a pretty neat way that they took this just, you know, it's just cards, it's just text on cards, but then they gave us physically something. Whenever I'm playing that across from the corporation, I'm like, okay, that's the server.

我必须追击那个目标。觉得这种处理方式相当酷。

I've gotta go after that one thing. Thought that that was a pretty cool way to handle it.

我超爱《Netrunner》。我已经好几年没玩了，但我以前经常玩，你刚才的描述让我瞬间回到了那个时候，Tim。这其实是我最早玩的现代游戏之一，接手这个游戏时感觉相当棘手，但我绝对爱上了它。现在我城里的一些朋友，你刚才也提到了，Fantasy Flight已经停运了，但有一个很大的地下社区，独立社区，他们在重印所有卡牌或印制新卡。所以看到这个游戏重新兴起真的很酷，这相当...

I I love Netrunner. I I haven't played for years, but I I used to play and I you took me back just now, Tim, as you were describing that. It was actually one of the first, modern games I played, and it was a doozy to try and kind of take that on, but I absolutely loved it. And now some of my friends here in town, you were just saying that, you know, Fantasy Flight stopped, but there's like a big kind of underground community, independent community that they're reprinting all the cards or reprinting new cards. So it's a it's cool to see that resurgence of that game happening, which is pretty

那个奔跑者杀不死啊，兄弟。粉丝们不断让它回归，它现在生机勃勃，蓬勃发展。

And that runner can't be killed, man. The the fans are keep bringing it back, and it's alive and thriving.

没错。是的。我想称赞的一位设计师在两款游戏中使用了类似的机制，我认为值得一提。我觉得这个设计很棒。这位设计师，希望我没说错名字，是Asgur Harding Granrud。

Exactly. Yeah. One of a designer that I I wanna give props to used somewhat of the same mechanism across two games, but I think it's worth noting. I thought it was a good one. The designer, and I hope I'm saying this right, is Asgur Harding Granrud.

他设计了《Flam Rouge》，后来又合作设计了《HEAT: Pedal to the Metal》。我认为这个机制非常出色，确实很有主题感。大家可能知道《Heat》，但可能也知道《Flam Rouge》。《Flam Rouge》是自行车竞速游戏，《Heat》则是汽车竞速游戏。

So he designed Flam Rouge, and then he also co designed HEAT, pedal to the metal. And I just think it's such a great mechanism that really does feel thematic. People probably know Heat, but maybe they also know Flam Rouge. Flam Rouge, of course, is a bike racing game, a bicycle racing game. Heat is a car racing game.

两款游戏中，你都需要管理一套牌组——虽然不完全是构筑牌组，但需要循环使用这些牌。在《Flam Rouge》中，你控制几名车手，沿着赛道骑行，如果过度消耗体力，就会积累更多疲劳值。最有趣的是，如果你选择全力冲刺，就会在牌组中获得这些疲劳牌。

In both cases, you've got a deck that you're managing that you're you're not really building per se for the most part, but you're cycling through this deck. And in Flam Rouge, you've got a couple bikers that you control. You're going around a track, and you can gain more exhaustion over time if you push yourself too much. What's really interesting about that is that if you do push yourself, then you choose to push yourself. You'll gain this exhaustion in your deck.

这些牌会堵塞你的牌组，让你速度变慢。这意味着如果是长距离比赛，到了比赛后期，你可能会突然手牌全是疲劳牌。这时候你就会想：'怎么回事？哦，原来是因为之前冲太猛了。'

It clogs your deck up. It slows you down. And so what that means is if you're doing this long race, it might be towards the end of that race. All of a sudden, hands full of all these exhaustion cards. It's like, what the oh, well, it's because you pushed yourself earlier.

我觉得这是展现这一概念的非常优雅的方式。而在《Heat》中，情况正好相反——如果过度加速，就会获得热量牌进入牌组，代表引擎过热；或者过弯太快就会打滑，需要重新调整。我认为游戏提供了大量机会来传达这种体验。虽然我没参加过竞技自行车或汽车比赛，但想象得到，当和朋友在赛道上竞速时，这类游戏确实从机制和体验上都真实再现了比赛感受。

I just think it's such a really elegant way to demonstrate that concept. And then in heat, of course, it's kind of the opposite where if you're pushing yourself too much, you gain these heat cards into your deck, which is, you know, representing your engine overheating, where or if you go around a curve too fast, then you're going to spin out and you have to kind of start over. I just think there's there's so many different need opportunities to communicate what it seems to be. I haven't done competitive rate bike racing or or car racing, but I can only imagine that it just really feels as I'm racing around the track with friends, that, those types of games really do represent what it would be like, both from the mechanical side, and from the experience side.

这些选择很棒，Dave。我知道你们中有人也把这些游戏列入了讨论清单。我觉得你们有人确实提到了。不过没错，《Heat: Pedal to the Metal》中热量管理的设计非常出色。我越玩越觉得：哇塞。

Those are great picks, Dave. I know one of you guys had these on your list to bring it up and talk about it as well. I think one of you guys did. But, yeah, the way you manage your heat there in heat pedal to the metal is outstanding. The more I play the game, the more I'm like, dang.

你真的需要考虑多个因素。就像你提到的，过弯时的速度控制、整体管理、牌组管理，什么时候该加速，什么时候不该加速，什么时候该保留实力。这些主题机制真的很棒。说得好，Dave。

You really have to consider, you know, a few things here. Like, you mentioned them both, going into the corners, what your speed is, managing it, and managing your your deck, and when to push your car, when to not push your car, when to kinda hold back. So some great thematic mechanisms there. Great callouts, Dave.

是的。你知道

Yeah. You know

你在谈论什么，你知道自己在说什么。

what you're talking you know what you're talking about.

Flob Rouge 其实也在我的提及名单上，如果我们深入讨论的话。所以我很高兴你提到了它。另一个我非常喜欢的主题机制是跟车机制，当你跟在某人后面时

Flob Rouge was actually on my list to mention too if we got into it. So I'm glad you called that out. And the one other really thematic mechanism I like is the drafting mechanism where if you pull up behind somebody Yeah.

哦，我忘记提那个了。

Oh, I forgot to mention that.

是的。当你跟在某人后面时，你会获得一点额外的助推。所以这再次证明，显然有人思考过：自行车比赛有什么特点？如何将其融入游戏中？他们确实通过《Flam Rouge》非常流畅地实现了这一点。

Yeah. And your turn behind somebody, then you get an extra little boost there. So that's, again, clearly a game that somebody was like, what what what does bike racing have and how do I fit it into the game? And they did it really streamlined with, with Flam Rouge for sure.

是的。而且这两款游戏还有一些很棒的扩展，试图在此基础上进一步构建，无论是天气、不同的路面条件还是不同的道路状况。所以看到他们如何审视这种文化的其他不同元素，并将其转化为游戏体验，真的很酷。

Yeah. And with those two, some neat expansions that try and build on that too, whether it's, you know, weather or different pavement, different road conditions in both of those games. So it's kind of neat to see how they can look at different, different other elements of that culture and how they can translate that to a game experience, which is neat.

Dave，我希望你没有花太多时间研究其他内容，因为我们往往有点长篇大论。但我认为这是一次精彩的对话，从一位专业的主题桌游设计师那里获得了深刻的见解。Dave，非常感谢你今天加入我们。非常期待查看《Distilled Cocktails》扩展包，它将于9月16日至10月2日在Kickstarter上众筹。

Dave, I I hope you didn't put too much time researching too many other things here because we tend to talk a little bit long winded. So but I thought we was a fascinating conversation, great insights from an expert thematic board game designer. Dave, thank you so much for joining us today. Really excited to check out the Distilled Cocktails expansion. That's gonna be on Kickstarter from September 16 to October 2.

听众朋友们，如果你们还没玩过《Distilled》，快去试试吧。超级好玩。但如果你是粉丝，去看看那个Kickstarter众筹项目。我们非常期待。戴夫，今晚还有什么想和听众分享的吗？

Listeners, if you haven't played Distilled, get it played. It's a blast. But if you're a fan, go check out that Kickstarter. We're looking forward to it. Dave, anything else you wanna share with our listeners tonight?

没有。就是，继续玩游戏，真的，大家，我无法再强调了。虽然大家都知道，但真的要珍惜与朋友、家人、所爱之人围坐桌边的那些时刻。那是特别的时光。对吧？

No. Just, keep playing games and, yeah, people, really, I can't emphasize enough. Everyone knows it already, but, just really cherish those moments around the table with friends, family, loved ones. It's it's a special time. Right?

创造那些回忆。享受你与他人共度的时光。而这正是我喜欢制作游戏、玩游戏、创造回忆的原因。我认为主题游戏在这方面做得特别好。谢谢邀请我参加节目。

Make those memories. Enjoy what you the time you have with people. And, that's why I love making games, playing games, making memories. And I think thematic games do that so well. So thanks for having me on.

继续，谢谢你持续制作精彩的游戏，戴夫，我们期待未来的新作。下周再见。各位保重。

Keep keep, thanks for continuing to make awesome games, Dave, and we're looking forward to what comes in the future. Until next week. Take care, everybody.

大家晚安。再见。

Good night, all. Bye bye.

再见。克里斯，关于这个话题，你还有什么其他重要的想法吗？你觉得我们还有什么关于主题机制的内容应该重点讨论？

See you. Chris, any what else what what else is is important for you on this topic? Anything else that you think we should really cover related to thematic mechanisms?

蒂姆，我不知道你为什么

Tim, I don't know why you

一直跳过

keep skipping

这些美甲。抱歉，亚当。

these manicures. Sorry, Adam.

我要走了。我要按我的方式来。

I'm gonna go. I'm gonna take it my way.

我要加入进去。我要走了。

I'm gonna jump in there. I'm gonna go.

蒂姆·蒂姆认为你关于霸权的看法大错特错。没错。

Tim Tim thinks that you're you were so wrong about hegemony that That's right.

这就是全部，我要打断你了。是的。我无法释怀。

It's it's all I'm cutting you off. Yeah. I can't get over it.