第549集 - 对决：所有战斗，毫无规则！

几个世纪前，一场战争爆发，瑞格利亚被摧毁。但在最后的努力中，有一位精灵埋下了一点魔法。保证任何人都会找到

Centuries ago, a war was fought, and Rigoriya was destroyed. But in a last ditch effort, there was one elf who buried a little bit of magic. Guarantee anyone will find

它。希望有人能找到。

it. Let's hope someone does.

一个年轻人霍普斯，这是什么？将不得不结束一场远在他出生前就开始的战争。

One young man Hops, what is this? Will have to end a war started long before his time.

无法逃脱。他的咒语已经生效。这可能是这个世界最后的机会。

Can't run. His spell has taken hold. This is the last possible chance this world may have.

《瑞格利亚的回响》。现已在所有播客平台上线。

Echoes of Rigoria. Now available wherever you listen to your podcasts.

欢迎来到《匿名堡垒》，一档人人都能参与的播客节目。

Welcome to Fortnames Anonymous, a podcast where everyone's local at the table.

但当然，没人知道轮到谁了。我是克里斯。嘿，我是安东尼。

But of course, no one knows whose turn it is. This is Chris. Hey, and this is Anthony.

这是第549期对决，打破所有规则，只论胜负。我们要感谢所有Patreon支持者帮助我们带来全新的一期。嘿，各位，我们回来了，一如既往地，我们选取最新最棒的内容，像摆弄一堆动作人偶一样把它们猛烈碰撞，因为这就是我们的乐趣所在，安东尼。这就是我们做的事。

And this is episode 549 versus all the battles, none of the rules. We like to thank all of the Patreon backers for helping us bring you a brand new episode. Hey, folks. We are back, and as always, we are taking the latest and the greatest, and we're slamming them together like they're a bunch of action figures because that's how we have fun, Anthony. It's the thing we do.

是啊。是啊。

Yeah. Yeah.

我们小时候就这么玩，现在成年了还在继续。所以，开战吧。

We did it as kids, and we're still doing it as adults. So fight.

开战。没错。这是比喻意义上的战斗。不。不。

Fight. Yeah. It's a metaphorical fight. No. No.

不是比喻。我办公室里真有这些大箱子在互相碰撞。太棒了。

Not metaphorical. I have these big boxes that are slamming into each other in my office. It's great.

嗯哼。嗯哼。我明白你的意思了。

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I see what you did there.

我确实可以。它们全在这儿呢。

I could, actually. They're all right here.

安东尼，如果你回想一下，我们以前玩棒球卡的时候——说真的，你现在可能都想穿越回去阻止当年的自己那么做。但还记得吗？我们翻卡、把卡片扔到墙上来赢取别人的卡之类的？基本上，我们当时就在损坏那些对我们来说无比珍贵、现在更是价值连城的卡片？是啊。所以现在，如果你玩桌面游戏，而这是终极对决环节，你们干脆互相扔棋盘游戏来决定胜负，那大概算是一种决胜方式吧。

If you think way back, Anthony, when we used to play with baseball cards, which, again, I mean, you wanna go back in time and stop the younger version of yourself from doing that. But, like, remember flipping cards or throwing cards against a wall to win cards and stuff like that? And, basically, we're damaging the cards that were, like, so incredibly valuable to us then and even more so now? Yeah. So now now now if you deal with tabletop games, and this is the ultimate versus episode, and you just throw the board games at each other and see who wins, like, that's, you know, that's a tiebreaker, I guess.

是啊。对我来说有趣的是，我在八十年代末、九十年代初开始收集棒球卡，那时候大家都说这些卡值十亿美元，但现在那些卡一文不值了。对吧？是啊。所以我还有那些卡。

Yeah. The funny thing for me is, like, I started collecting baseball cards in the late eighties, early nineties when everybody's like, these are worth a billion dollars, and then all those cards are worthless now. Right? Yeah. So I have I have all those cards.

我一直留着它们，精心保管着。而我当年乱扔的其实是毫无价值的万智牌。天啊。不。

I've kept them. I've carefully curated them. What I used to throw around, like, was worthless, was magic cards. Oh my god. No.

因为你是在玩它们。就像，你知道，你有玩具，有卡组。是啊。你会觉得，这些不值钱，无所谓。

Because you're playing with them. You're like because, you know, you have toys, you have decks of cards. Yeah. You're like, these aren't worth anything. It's whatever.

所以，我九岁的大脑根本无法理解，我当时手里拿着的有一天会值几万美元。

And so, like, my nine year old brain couldn't process the fact that I was holding what would one day be worth tens of thousands of dollars.

太疯狂了。是啊，真的太疯狂了。

That's crazy. Yeah. That's really crazy.

唉。我我留错了东西。

Ugh. I I saved the wrong stuff.

那时我年纪稍大一些，有两种特别的游戏是用棒球卡玩的，或者说任何体育卡都可以，但棒球卡是主流。橄榄球卡并不太流行，篮球卡也一样。我从没见过冰球卡，但我确信它们也存在。其中一种游戏是翻卡，对吧？

Now, I was a little bit older, and there was two games in particular that you play with baseball cards or, I guess, any sports card, but baseball card baseball cards were the main cards. Football cards really weren't a much of a big thing and same thing with basketball. I don't I never saw a hockey card, but I'm sure they were out there. Sure. One game you would flip it, right?

整个玩法就是试图赢得别人的卡，所以他们会先翻卡。如果卡面朝上，你也需要翻出朝上的卡。就像是用手腕技巧轻轻一弹让卡片匹配，然后你就能赢得那张卡。但显然，现在你是直接把卡片扔到水泥地上翻面，这对卡片很不好。最糟糕的是对着墙扔卡的游戏。

So the whole idea was you were trying to capture someone else's card, so they would flip first. And if it was face up, you need to get a face up. So, like, you kind of finesse the card, like flick of the wrist to be able to match, and then you would get you would get that card. But obviously, now you're literally throwing cards through flipping onto the concrete ground, so not good for the card. The worst was the, the wall.

玩法是把你的卡片斜靠在墙边排列好，然后另一个玩家拿出卡片——这些在当时都是很有价值的收藏卡，虽然当时谁也不知道——像扔手里剑一样扔出去，试图把墙边的卡片打落。所以你是要击中对方的卡片。

So what you would do is you would line your cards up at an angle of the edge of the wall, and then the other player would take cards. Again, these are valuable visible cards. Again, who knew? And, you know, like, almost like a a shuriken, and, like, throw it and try to knock the other cards off the wall. So you would hit the other card.

再次说明，这些玩法对卡片极具破坏性且问题多多。但我比你年长一些，那时候我们还没意识到这些东西都很值钱，直到几年后突然发现，就像超人去世后一切变得昂贵起来。但我觉得最糟的是我父母那代人，越往前追溯，人们越不觉得这些东西真有价值。他们过去常把棒球卡夹在自行车辐条里，骑车时卡片互相拍打发出某种酷炫的声音，结果显然就是把卡片这样毁掉了。

So, again, incredibly destructive and problematic on all things. But, again, this was I'm a little bit older than you, so, like, we were not ad- we were not made aware that everything was super expensive until like a couple years later, where it was like, yeah, everything Superman died and then next thing you know, everything's very expensive. But I think the worst is, like, my parents' generation, which again, the further back you go, the less you thought, again, that these things were actually had value to them. And they used to take baseball cards and stick them in the spokes of their bicycles and then ride the bicycles and then the cards would flap against each other. So it makes some sort of cool noise and they would obviously end up destroying cards like that.

话虽如此，如果不是因为孩子们过去对卡片、漫画书等做的这些傻事，这些东西今天也不会这么有价值。对吧？因为它们有价值是因为幸存下来的数量有限。现在所有东西都被超级密封、碳化保存和评级，反而让我觉得奇怪。因为我过去用卡袋和卡板保存时，还觉得这样放在袋子里无法真正享受收藏的乐趣。

That being said, if it wasn't for all these stupid things that kids used to do with cards and comic books and everything else, things wouldn't have value today. Right? Because it's they have value because there's a limited number that survived. Now everything survives because it's, like, super sealed and, you know, in carbonite and graded, which is weird now for me. Because, like, I used to do bags and boards and felt like, oh, I'm somehow not enjoying the hobby because it's in a bag and board.

而现在一切都变成了：哦，你喜欢那些卡？是啊，它们都被封在坚固的钛合金塑料里。你可以把它们放在架子上，但再也不能拿来玩，再也不能触摸了。

And now everything is like, oh, you like those cards? Yeah. They're all in, like, solid titanium plastic. Yeah. And you can put them on a shelf, but you can't play with them anymore, and you can't touch them anymore.

我有过这样一个时刻——大概是几年前。我仍然是个棒球迷，作为水手队粉丝，我对当前季后赛非常着迷。嗯。但那是几年前卡尔·罗利击出全垒打，带领球队进入季后赛的时候。

I I had a moment. I was, like, la it was a couple years ago. I'm still a big baseball fan, and I'm very much in enthralled with the current, playoffs as a Mariner fan. Mhmm. But it was a couple years ago when Cal Raleigh hit a home run, and they got into the playoffs.

那真是件大事。我当时就想，哦，我应该买他的新秀卡。我买到了，还专门做了封装保护。一切都精心打理过。简直太疯狂了。

It was a whole thing. I was like, oh, I should get his rookie card. And I got that in, and it's like all slabbed up. It's all carefully curated. It was like Crazy.

我感觉自己像个孩子。但同时我又想，什么？我根本没法用它做什么。所以它就进了抽屉。是啊。

I felt like a child. At the same time, I was like, what? I can't do anything with it. So it goes in a drawer. Yeah.

我把它放在这里的架子上。就在一个盒子里。我知道就在上面某个地方。顺便说一句，它现在价值远比我买的时候高，因为他刚刚打了60个本垒打。但我只是觉得，嗯，这还挺酷的。

I have it on the shelf here. It's like, in a box. I know it's up there somewhere. It's worth way more than what I bought it, by the way, because he just hit 60 home runs. But I I'm just like, I guess that's cool.

我想我挺高兴买了它。但我不知道它在哪。我甚至都没法看到它。

I guess I'm glad I bought that. I don't know where it is. I don't even get to look at it.

确实。这有点悲哀，因为这些东西本应被触摸、观赏、把玩，以一种让它们仍然能够被接触到的方式收藏。是的，在某种程度上。

Sure. It's kinda sad because these things are meant to be touched and seen and played with and, you know, collected in a way that, like, allows them to be still accessible Yeah. In some ways.

这就是桌游厉害的地方。

And That's why board games kick butt.

确实如此。不过这些年来我们对桌游一直非常小心。我知道有些人会把游戏盒留在家里，然后把所有东西装进普通的旧盒子里带去游戏之夜，这很有道理。但这样你就没有带着盒子，少了些酷炫感。但显然你的盒子会受损，你知道，我心理上必须达到一个境界，能够接受我的游戏盒和其他东西出现凹痕的事实。

They do. Although we've been very careful with our board games over the years. I I know people who would bring their leave their game boxes at home and then put everything in, like, plain old boxes to bring out to the game night, which made a lot of sense. But then you don't have the boxes with you, which felt like the cool factor. But certainly your boxes are gonna take damage and, you know, and then it would kind I of think mentally, I had to get to a point where I could breathe with the fact that my my game boxes and things were getting dented.

我当时就想，你必须得熬过那一刻，对吧？是的。因为你会觉得，哦，它坏了或者有划痕什么的。你就会想，哦，不。

I was just like like, it's a hard you have to get over that moment. Right? Yeah. Because you're like, oh, it's got a broke or it's got a slash or something. You're just like, oh, no.

就像，就像我已经达到了这个境界。

Like, like I've reached this.

我觉得我现在已经到了这样一个阶段，如果盒子有点磕碰，我就会想，那很酷。那意味着我经常玩那个。

I feel like I've reached the point now where, like, if a if a box is a little dinged up, I'm like, that's cool. That means I play that one.

哦，那真有趣。

Oh, that's funny.

是的。我的意思是，当游戏绝版时确实有点糟，你会想，我无法替换它。当然。就像我的《魔戒之战》盒子已经相当破旧了，到了某个时候，就直接买了个新的。

Yeah. I mean, it sucks a little when the game's, like, out of print, you're like, I can't replace it. Sure. Like, my War of the Ring box is pretty thoroughly thrashed, and at a certain point, just bought a new one.

但是，是的。

But Yeah.

其中有些游戏已经绝版一段时间了，所以它们就像是，嗯

Of these some of these games have been out of print for a while, so they're like, well

我是说，这个行业变化太大了。比如，就在不久前，游戏一旦绝版你就买不到了。就像，它就彻底没了。

I mean, the industry has changed a lot. Like, I mean, it wasn't that long ago you couldn't get a game once it went out of print. Like, it was done.

确实。是的。

True. Yeah.

所以以前有所谓的“圣杯游戏”，而现在游戏被重印、重制，还有各种众筹项目，这些都彻底改变了行业，变化巨大。就像在我们做播客的这些年里，这真是一个重大的转变。是的。所以，这有点疯狂。

So there were Grail games, and now that games have been reprinted and remastered and, you know, with all the crowdfunding that's out there too, that's radically changed the industry, like, tremendously. Like and and it was in the years in which we've been doing the podcast. Like, it's such a major switchover. Yeah. So, yeah, it's kinda crazy.

但是，是的，这就是所有这些爱好的变化本质。而且我认为这也是一个可悲的方面，比如纽约动漫展刚结束。我不知道。安东尼，我随口问你一个问题。

But, yeah, it's the changing nature of, I guess, all these hobbies. And I think it's also one of the sad nature like, New York Comic Con just happened. I don't know. Like, here's a question for you, Anthony. Off the cuff.

我是说，我们所热爱的这些爱好的收藏性质，到底是变好了还是变坏了？变好的方面是，你喜欢的东西实际上有了财务价值。但变坏的方面是，因为它有财务价值，你就把它放进塑料或钢制的盒子里，是的，被评级封存，然后你就再也不能碰它了。这很奇怪。

I mean, is the collectible nature of the hobbies that we love for the better or for the worse? Like, for the better, the thing that you love actually has financial value to it. But for the worse, because there's financial value to it, you put it in a plastic steel box Yeah. Thing that's been graded and and it just, like, you can't touch it again. Like, it's weird.

比如，我不知道是哪一种，因为你看现在有宝可梦卡牌之类的东西。大家都在玩，他们交易、开包。整个TikTok和YouTube频道上都是人们在撕开包装袋。比如，我该不该开这个盒子？

Like, I don't I don't know which one of those because like you see with Pokemon cards and stuff like that out there. Like, everyone's having fun. They're trading the people open. Like, this whole TikTok and YouTube channels, which is people ripping open bags. Like, should I open this box?

这个盒子值300美元。是的。然后他们一包一包地开。就像，哦，我赚了75美元。你会想，我简直要晕倒了。

This box costs $300. Yeah. And then they go through the packs. It's like, oh, I made $75 off of that. You're like, I would just fall on the floor.

就像，哦，不。我做了什么？或者，再说一次，就像一个盒子，我们见过这个。有很多，比如，有像原始迈克尔·乔丹新秀卡那样的，上面还粘着一块原始泡泡糖，已经干在上面了。他们就像，我们永远不会碰这个，因为它有这种内在价值。

Just be like, oh, no. What have I done? Or, again, like a box and we've seen this. There's a lot of, like there's, like, original Michael Jordan rookie card, like, with a piece of original bubble gum on it, like, dried to it. And they're like, we're never touching this because it has this kind of intrinsic value.

或者这包卡片来自，比如，二十世纪五十年代，而且，我们永远不会打开它。就像，里面是什么？我想知道卡片背面有什么。它们是

Or this pack of cards comes from, like, the nineteen fifties and, like, we'll never open it. Like, what's in it? I wanna know what's in the back of cards. They're

那就打开它吧。是的。

like so open it. Yeah.

他们就像，但它值，比如，未开封价值10万美元。而且，比如，如果我们没得到什么好东西怎么办？那它就只值，比如，3美元。你就像，是啊。显然，万智牌也是，是的。

They're like, but it's worth, like, a $100,000 unopened. And, like, what if we don't get anything good? Then it's worth, like, $3. You're like, yeah. And obviously, Magic cards too, which is Yeah.

两者都在财务上爆炸性增长，但也因为所有不同的IP（知识产权）而大大稀释了其价值。

Both exploded financially, but also watered it down so much because of all the different IPs out there.

嗯。

Mhmm.

再次，我也为另一边感到难过。就像，那些从中受益或在财务上利用它的人，在某些情况下也受到了严重的打击，不过是好的方面？我不知道。

Again, I feel bad too on the other side. Like, the the people out there that are benefiting or utilizing this financially are also getting hit hard in some cases in the bad way, but also the good? I don't know.

是的。我觉得小时候，我认为这真的很酷，就是拥有一个东西，也许有一天它会值钱的想法。小时候我对此非常着迷。是的。但我小时候做了很多很糟糕的交易，唉。

Yeah. I don't I think when I was younger, I thought it was really cool, like, the whole idea of having a thing and then maybe someday it'll be worth something. Like, I was really obsessed with it when I was a kid. Yeah. But I made a lot of really bad trades when I was a kid that Oh.

我已经处理掉了，你知道，我卖掉了第一版的一张喷火龙卡。我用一张科比·布莱恩特的新秀卡换了一张马克·麦奎尔的卡。哇。我做了很多非常糟糕的决定。所以现在回想起来，我就觉得，没关系。

I've gotten rid of you know, I sold a Charizard card that I had from the first set. I traded a Kobe Bryant rookie card for Mark McGuire card. Wow. I made a lot of really poor decisions. So, like, I look back now, and I'm just like, it's fine.

你知道吗？就像，我知道我有一些有价值的东西。它们放在一个盒子里。我从不看它们。我就想，哦，如果我要卖掉它们，我会的。

You know? Like, I I know I have a few things that are valuable. They're in a box. I never look at them. And I like, oh, if I were to sell them, I will.

但我真的不认为我会那样投机，尤其是游戏方面。我觉得到现在为止，任何有显著价值但我不玩的，我都已经处理掉了。所以，当然。我不再保留任何东西了，除非是我喜欢并且拥有的游戏，它们值钱，但我想玩它们。所以我不太在意。

But I don't really think I'm about certainly not speculating to that degree. And with the games, especially, I just I think at this point, anything of, like, significant value that I don't play, I've gotten rid of. So Sure. I'm not really sitting on anything anymore unless I have games I like and that I own that are worth money, but I wanna play them. So I don't really care.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我觉得我已经过了那个阶段。而且这是因为这很压力大。你总是想着，我不想玩这个。它超级值钱。我不想，就像，我拥有《Macau》很长时间了。

So I think I've just grown out of that part of it. And it is it's because it's stressful. You're always thinking about it like, I don't wanna play this. It's super valuable. I don't want like, I had Macau for a long time.

它是一款替换成本大约200美元的游戏。我就想，即使我喜欢它，我也不会带它去游戏之夜，因为我不想它被弄坏。我就觉得，这太傻了。我为什么要拥有这个游戏？

It was like, a game that costs, like, $200 to to replace. I'm like, I wouldn't bring it with me to game nights even though I liked it because I didn't wanna get beaten up. I'm like, well, this is stupid. Why do I have the game?

对吧？确实。我很早就对市场的可收藏性和投机性做出了这个决定，因为我知道很多人都在这么做，尤其是在Kickstarter上。

Right? Sure. I made that decision really early on about the collectability and the speculation of the market because I know a lot of people are doing that, especially with Kickstarter.

是的。

Yeah.

而且这太有诱惑力了。对吧？就像，这是我熟悉的领域。这是我可能赚钱的地方。但是，我也觉得如果我那样做，如果我踏入那个只是为了转售而购买游戏的世界，我就再也无法从游戏中获得乐趣了。

And it's so seductive. Right? Like, here's an area that I know. Here's an area I could make money. But, also, if I felt like if I did that, if I stepped into that world of buying games just to resell them, that I just couldn't have fun with with games anymore.

是的。因为那样一来，一切都与金钱价值挂钩。就像，每样东西要么是赢家要么是输家，而不是它好不好玩。

Yeah. Because then everything has everything is just tied to a financial value. Like, everything's a winner or a loser instead of, like, is it fun to play?

没错。这恰恰说明我们生活中太多方面都是资本主义。我不想，而且显然，任何爱好，你知道，它也是资本主义。它是生意。但是，是的。

Right. It just it makes so much of our lives are capitalism. I didn't wanna, like and obviously, any hobby that we're you know, it's capitalism. It's it's a business. But Yeah.

它也是一种爱好，充满了我想玩的东西。所以我不想把它变成那样，你知道。偶尔我会卖掉一些东西。有人告诉我，我那套无限手套漫威联合套装值大约200美元。我当时想，好吧，那我就卖掉它。

It's also a hobby and it's a full of things I like to play with. So I don't I didn't wanna make that into that, you know. Every now and then, I'll sell something. I've somebody pointed out to me that my copy of the Infinity Gauntlet Marvel United set thing was worth, like, $200. I was like, okay, I'll sell that.

就像，我不需要它。我玩过一次。我觉得没问题。但我，是的，我不搞投机。我不知道东西值多少钱，我也不想知道。

Like, I don't need that. I played it once. I'm fine with that. But I yeah, I'm not speculating. I don't know what things are worth and I don't want to.

是的。你做得很好，而我却一点都没做。我可能应该做点什么，就赚几块钱过日子。所以，是的，就是这么回事。

Yeah. You done that well, I've done I've done none of that at all. Like, I probably should. Just get a couple dollars to get through. So, yeah, that's the thing.

再说一次，就像我说的，这真的很奇怪，也很美妙——我是指所有这些事情，这些奇怪又美妙的爱好，一旦涉及到金钱，就会变得，哦，更好是因为它能帮你赚钱，但也会带走一些乐趣。是的。然后当你去一家友好的本地游戏店，看到一个10岁的孩子和一个50岁的人交易卡片，我就觉得，我觉得这种情况下需要有个大人在场。但是，

Again, like I said, it it's such a weird it's such a weird and beautiful I mean, all of these things, such weird and beautiful hobbies, and it just when you bring the money in, it's like, oh, it's better because it can help you financially, but it also takes away some of the fun. Yeah. And then and then when you go to a a friendly local game store and you see, like, a 10 year old trading cards with, like, a 50 year old guy, and I'm just like, I feel like I feel like there needs to be an adult in the room when that stuff happens. But like,

这不太好。

it's not great.

孩子们比我们那时候聪明多了。但我也，我不知道。这看起来很奇怪。我不知道。这看起来很奇怪。

Kids kids are a little smarter than we were back in that day. But also, don't I don't know. It seems weird. I don't know. It seems weird.

就是很奇怪。是的。再说一次，我觉得另一个原因，可能也是为什么避开那种有组织的比赛，是因为人们会变得非常恶毒。是的，你懂吗？因为，再说一次，很多那些游戏竞争性很强，所以情绪会卷入其中。

Just weird. Yeah. And again, I I think the other thing too is and one of the reasons why probably staying away from that kind of organized play is because people get so vicious Yeah. Over you know? Because, again, a lot of those games are very competitive, so the the emotions get involved.

但然后当有金钱利益时，比如，哦，你赢了比赛得到一张稀有卡片，就会觉得，唉。就是这么回事。

But then when there's financial stakes of, like, oh, you get this rare card because you won a thing, and it's like, ugh. That's kind of a thing.

是的。我记得以前有些比赛变得相当不愉快。

Yeah. I remember some tournaments getting pretty sour back in the day.

是的。所以这是一个奇怪、有趣、不断变化的行业。现在有了Kickstarter、GameFound和其他众筹平台，真的改变了很多事情。因为，回想当年，安东尼，参加展会实际上是一件很棒但也很昂贵的事情，因为你必须去那里才能买到展会限定版。

Yeah. So it's it's a weird, interesting, changing industry throughout. And now with Kickstarter and and GameFound and all the other crowdfunding sources, it's really changed a lot of things. Because, again, remember back in the day, Anthony, where, like, conventions were actually an amazing and, like, an expensive thing to go because you had to get the convention exclusives.

对。没错。

Right. Yeah.

现在这种情况几乎已经不存在了。

That's not really a thing anymore, like, almost at all.

偶尔还会有，比如Fantasy Flight。这很少见了。是的，是的。但我记得，当《漫威群英传》推出时，他们有英雄的异画版，那些真的很有价值。

Every now and then, and it's often like Fantasy Flight. It's rare. Yeah. Yeah. But, like, I remember I had, like, the when Marvel Champions came out, they had, like, alternate art for the heroes, and those were really valuable.

我当时就想，好吧，我会卖掉这些。当然。或者，比如他们为《星球大战：无限》做了推广卡。我就想，当然。我有大概三套，因为我儿子和我演示了两次。

And I was, like, okay, I'll sell these. Sure. Or, like, they did promo cards for Star Wars Unlimited. I was, like, sure. I have, like, three sets because my son and I demoed twice.

但是，是的，除此之外真的很罕见。因为你可以直接，你知道，它们在Kickstarter上就能买到。

But, yeah, it's really rare otherwise. It because you could just you know, they're on Kickstarter.

你为什么要……是的。你一次性就买下全套，因为，没错。我认为，出版商当然不在乎，也不一定想要二级市场。他们希望你买他们的东西，因为他们的价值就在这里。所以就像，哦，这是个独家产品。

Why would you Yeah. You buy the whole thing and you buy it all at once because, again Right. I I think, certainly, the publishers don't care, don't want necessarily the secondary market. They want you to buy their stuff because that's where their value comes in. So like, oh, it's an exclusive.

是的，如果你在Kickstarter上购买的话。所以我们稍后会稍微聊一下这个。不，这只是个小插曲，因为我看到King你在动漫展上，我看到很多交易之类的活动在进行。

Like, yeah, if you buy it on Kickstarter. So we'll talk about that a little bit. No. It's just a a little bit of an offset because I saw King you're at Comic Con happening. I saw a lot of trading and stuff going on.

我就想，哦。但是，再次强调，你知道，粉丝文化，我们在最近的会议上讨论过这个。粉丝文化正在以前所未有的方式进入主流。

I'm just like, oh. But, again, you know, fandom, we talked about this at the the most recent conference. Fandom is is, like, hitting the mainstream in a way it never did before.

嗯。

Mhmm.

它正在取代很多神话和民间传说之类的东西。所以它在人们生活中变得越来越重要。就像电子游戏一样，对吧，曾几何时电子游戏只是给我们这些书呆子玩的，现在每个人都玩电子游戏。所以我们现在玩和收藏的所有东西也是如此

It's replacing a lot of, like, mythology and folklore. So it's becoming more and more in people's lives. And just like video games, right, once upon a time video games were just for us nerds and now everybody plays video games. So so too is all the stuff that we play and collect now too

嗯。

Mhmm.

在所有其他事情之上。所以抱歉，刚才有点跑题了。我觉得沿着这条路稍微开一下车挺好的。但是，Anthony，我们有很多有趣的事情要来了。

Top of everything else. So sorry. That was just a little tangent. I thought it was a good little drive down that road a little bit. But, Anthony, we got so much fun stuff coming up.

显然，PAX很快就要来了，所以我们会去那里。Essence Spiel也会举行。我们不会参加，但我们会远观并渴望所有那边发生的有趣事情。不过话说回来，Anthony，让我们继续这一集，让我们来掷骰子预览。这周你为我们准备了什么？

Obviously, PAX is coming up pretty soon, so we'll be going to there. Essence Spiel will be happening. We will not be attending, but, we will be looking at a distance and and wanting and desire for all that fun stuff that's happening out over there. But with that said, Anthony, let's let's go on to the episode and let's, roll for preview. What do you have up for us this week?

好吧。我这边有一个还没上线的。你现在还不能订购这个，但很快就可以了，你可以把所有的钱都给他们。

Alright. So I have one that is not up up yet. You can't you can't order this yet, but pretty soon, you can give them all your monies.

哦，来了来了。

Oh, here we go.

快来了。他们会收你的钱。他们保证的。所以这是另一个，这是当前的热门东西，对吧？

It's coming. They'll take your money. They promise. So this is another this is this is like the current thing. Right?

是的。而且很多是Awakened Realms的，但这个不是Awakened Realms的。这是Steamforged Games的。什么？Steamforged有一段——我不想说是有问题的历史。

Yes. And it's it a lot of it's Awakened Realms, but this is not Awakened Realms. This is Steamforged games. What? And Steamforged has I don't wanna say a troubled history.

哦，天啊。有点吧。他们确实出过一些问题。我知道，比如，我觉得我从来没众筹过他们的游戏，但我肯定远距离关注过他们。因为他们有过问题，比如《艾尔登法环》桌游、《怪物猎人》桌游、《Euthia》、《生化危机》，一大堆东西。

Oh, boy. A little bit. They've they've had some issues. I know, like, I don't think I've ever backed one of their games, but I've definitely followed them from afar. Because they've had issues, like, the the Elden Ring board game, the Monster Hunter board game, Euthia, Resident Evil, bunch of stuff.

所以，嗯。《Bard Song》，像是那种庞大 sprawling 的游戏。他们做这些游戏。他们出版。它们上市。

So Mhmm. Bard Song, like, big big sprawling games. They they do them. They get published. They come out.

还行吧。不管它们是否延期，或者沟通是否非常清晰，我觉得这有时还有待商榷。当然。但他们已经跳进了整个潮流，就是把欧式游戏过度优化然后收人们300美元。我们马上要迎来《Terra Mystica》特别版了。

It's fine. Whether they get delayed or they communicate very clearly, I think that's sometimes up for up for debate. Sure. But they've they've jumped into this whole trend of, let's over optimize a euro and charge people $300 for it. And we're getting Terra Mystica, special edition.

是的。这就是我们现在所知道的全部。所以我想，嘿，我们来猜猜他们会怎么处理这个东西。

Yes. And that is all we know right now. So I thought, hey, let's guess what they're gonna do with this thing.

没错。我的意思是，从GameFound上的预览活动中你可以大致推断出几件事。首先，我认为最可能让你印象深刻的是艺术风格的改变。

Yeah. I mean, there's a couple of things that you can kinda glean from the preview campaign here on GameFound. First off, I think the thing that's gonna hit you probably most is the artwork change.

那看起来就像AI画出来的一样AI。我不是说它就是AI画的。可能只是那种插画风格。非常扁平。

That looks about as AI as AI looks. I'm not saying it is. It's probably just like that's an illustration style. Very flat.

但是非常扁平。

But Very flat.

看起来毫无特色。

It looks like nothing.

确实看起来毫无特色。再说一次，我当初喜欢原版《神秘大地》的原因之一就是它的美术。是的，我的意思是，奇幻主题以及所有不同的派系等等。它真的让这个游戏在我心中完整了。

It does look like nothing. And again, one of one of the things that I did love about the original Terra Mystica was the artwork. Yeah. I mean, the fantasy theme and all the different factions and stuff like that. It really it it held held the game together for me.

没错。

Right.

所以这确实有点令人惊讶，所有这些都发生了转变。而且，我们很难判断，因为我们只能看到盒子封面。再次从封面来看，它看起来像是一个人类，有着相对正常的，就像你说的，有点AI艺术作品的感觉，但看起来并不像高度奇幻风格。它更像是相对普通的地球人在做这类事情。

So that that's kind of that's kind of surprising for all that to to kind of, like, switch. And again, it's hard to tell because all we're looking at the box cover. And again, from the look of the box cover, looks like a human person with, like, somewhat normal, like you said, AI kind of artwork, but it seems like relatively it doesn't look like high fantasy. It looks like relative normal earth people doing that kind of thing.

它非常侧重于地形，而不是种族。

It's very much focused on the terrain, not on the races.

是的。而且这也很奇怪，因为Terra Mystica是关于地形改造的，为什么盒子上没有各种疯狂不同的土地呢？说实话，它看起来几乎像是一个农场游戏。

Yes. And again, it's also very weird too because why again, Terra Mystica being about this terraforming, why is there not crazy different, you know, lands on this box? Right. It's it's a very it almost looks like a farming game, to be honest with you.

对，有点那个意思。现在

Right. A little bit. Now

这真正有趣的地方在于，从这些非常有限的技术来看，它们并没有升级得很好，哦不对，它们是在升级。抱歉，它们是在升级，但没有改变任何游戏玩法。所以它说，最重要的是，你所熟知和喜爱的游戏玩法保持不变。

what's really interesting about this, again, from the very limited amount of techs here, is that they are not upgrading well, they are upgrading. I'm sorry. They are upgrading, but they're not changing any of the gameplay. So it says, best of all, the gameplay you know and love remains unchanged. Right.

这是我不太满意的一点。所以

That is something that I'm not happy about. So

是的。我的意思是，问题就在这里。这些公司进来后，他们并没有对这些欧式游戏做出改变。他们只是给我们提供了最闪亮、最昂贵的版本。就像《勃艮第城堡》也没有改变。

Yeah. I mean, that's the thing, though. It's like, these these companies, they come in, they're not making changes to these euros. They're just giving us the shiniest, most expensive version of the euro. Like, Castles of Burgundy didn't change.

波多黎各没有变化。就像，那些游戏比如《农场主》是不会变的。他们有时会加入新扩展包或者推出一些绝版很久的东西。比如，《勃艮第城堡》就给了我们一个新扩展包。是的。

Puerto Rico didn't change. Like, those games are Agricola is not changing. They sometimes throw in a new expansion or bring stuff that's out of print forever. Like, Castles of Burgundy gave us a new expansion. Yes.

《农场主》，你可以买到所有的牌组，包括那些你永远找不到的。就像一个终极合集，现在我觉得《神秘大地》也需要这个，因为它有三个扩展包。不过很多人指出春天会有一个新扩展包出来。没错。里面好像包含了所有粉丝派系，大家就在问，这个包含在内吗？还是会进一步分裂市场？谁知道呢？

Agricola, we you could get all the decks, including all the ones you could never find. It's like an all in one ultimate thing, which at this point, I guess, kinda need for Terra Mystica, because it has the three expansions. Although, a lot of people are pointing out there's a new expansion coming out in the spring Sure. That with, like, all the fan factions and they're like, is that included or do is this gonna split the market even further? Who knows?

再说《神秘大地》，我希望看到一些改变，因为我觉得《盖亚计划》在某些方面比《神秘大地》做得更好，至少原版是这样。但我理解《神秘大地》像国际象棋一样有一批忠实粉丝。而且，还记得以前在论坛上大家做的各种计算和策略整理。所以我理解为什么。但就像你说的，安东尼，他们这里没有做任何游戏性改动，这既奇怪也可能挺好的。

Again, Terra Mystica, I would like to see some changes because Gaia Project, I think, does something something's better than Terra Mystica, at least the original version. But I understand that Terror Mystica has a following like chess. And again, remember back in the day with the forums and all the kind of calculations and strategies that that you would put together. So I can understand why. But as you said, Anthony, they're they're not making any game changes here, which is both odd and maybe good.

所以再次强调，据他们所说，这是玩《神秘大地》的终极方式，更新了视频视觉效果，豪华配件，所有东西集于一处，适合新老粉丝。所以，耶？大概吧？我不知道。

So again, this is according to them, this is the definitive way to play Terror Mystica, refreshed video visuals, deluxe components, and everything in one place for fans old and new. So yay. I guess? Probably? I don't know.

木头？我是说，如果他们能把木头棋子换成不是《卡坦岛》那种的，我会很喜欢的。

Wood? I mean, if they could change the wood pieces to not be, Catan pieces, I would love that.

所以哦，他们肯定会这么做的。

So Oh, they will definitely do that.

哦，好的。我们要我们要

Oh, good. We're we're gonna

肯定会有塑料房子之类的东西。

get plastic houses and stuff for sure.

是的。那里会有，比如，会有额外的低层区域和不同的层级，

Yeah. There's gonna be, like, there's gonna be, like, extra low levels out there and different layers and

是的。

Yeah.

我想，你可以做的战役背景内容。

Campaign back things that you could do, I guess.

是的。我猜地形会用陶瓷或者厚木瓦片。亚克力？然后为每种不同类型的模具做雕塑造型。

Yeah. I'm gonna guess, like, either ceramic or, like, thick wood tiles for the terrain. Acrylic? And then and then sculpted molds for each of the different types of molds.

所以你是说，这是一款250美元的游戏。

So you're you're talking about, like, a $250 game.

是的。哦，没错。好吧。这是一家卖250美元游戏的公司。是的。

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. This is a company that sells $250 games. Yes.

这就是他们的做法。这就是Awakened Realms的模式，对吧？比如，这是一款你喜欢的游戏，然后推出一个价值250美元的终极版。你是最忠实的粉丝吗？

It's what they do. And that's that's the Awakened Realms model. Right? Like, here's a year you love and here's the ultimate edition that costs $250. Are you the biggest fan?

因为如果你是，你就会买这个。不过选这款游戏来做这个有点奇怪，因为你知道，特别是《大地神秘》，还有《盖亚计划》给喜欢科幻版本的玩家。然后他们两年前刚推出了《创新时代》。是的。对很多人来说，这算是《大地神秘》的1.5版本，有同类型的种族。

Because if you are, you'll buy this. It is a weird game to do it with though, because, you know, Terra Mystica in particular, there is Gaia Project for those who want like the sci fi version. And then they just did Age of Innovation, like, two years ago. Yep. Which is, to many people, kind of the 1.5 version of Terra Like, it's the same kind of races.

它是一样的，带点蒸汽朋克风格，但仍然是奇幻题材。而且它修复了你提到的很多问题。

It's the same it's a little steampunky, but it's still fantasy. And it fixes a lot of those issues you talked about.

是的。

Yes.

所以这是在做什么？这，嗯，我不知道。这有点像是一个奇怪的分裂市场，因为你有《大地神秘》。当然，如果它有三个扩展包，你可以买到那个终极大盒版，这已经可以买到了，顺便说一句，这已经要150美元了。

So what is this doing? It, like, I don't know. It's it's kind of a weird fractured space because you have Terra Mystica. Sure. If it's, like, three expansions, you have the ultimate big box of that, which you can already get, which is already, like, a $150, by the way.

所以这个版本不可能比那个便宜。然后你有《盖亚计划》，它刚出了新扩展，还有《创新时代》。比如，你想要哪一个？这些都还在印刷中，没有绝版。

So this version cannot be less than that. And then you have Gaia Project, which also just had a new expansion, and then Age of Innovation. Like, which of these do you want? They're all in print still. None of this is out of print.

你都能买到，不难找。而现在，又推出这个只是更漂亮的大价钱版本。我，我不知道。我的意思是，它会赚钱的。

You can get any of it. Not hard to find. And now, have this big expensive version that's just gonna be prettier. I I don't know. I mean, it'll make money.

我并不担心这个。倒不是说我会担心。只是以目前《神秘大地》系列的市场状况来看，选择这个时机推出有点奇怪。

I'm not worried about that. Not that I ever would. But it's just a weird one to pick for this with the way the market is right now for Terra Mystica stuff.

是啊。我的意思是，《新大地》也已经上市了。对吧。最轻量级的版本，那个我都忘了叫啥了

Yeah. I mean, Terra Nova is out there too. Right. Lightest the lightest version of that Forgot about

那个啊。对。嗯哼。

that one. Yeah. Mhmm.

所以就像你说的，现在市面上已经有很多方式可以玩《神秘大地》了。而且还有各种扩展包。在这个所谓的"现代"，游戏发行后能持续印刷的情况越来越多，不像过去只有一次印刷量。特别是由于众筹，加上这些公司更加稳固，不再那么像小作坊了，这就让人想问：这到底是给谁准备的？就像你说的，你已经拥有一个甚至多个版本的《神秘大地》了。

So there's a lot of ways to play Terra Mystica that that are already out there, as you mentioned. And there's also the expansions that are out there. It's just more and more as the modern age, quote, unquote, modern age allows games that come out now to still be in print, whereas normally there was a print run. But because of crowdfunding especially, and also these companies being a little more solid, not being little tiny companies so much more, it's like, who is this for? Because like you said, you own one or if not many versions of Terra Mystica.

那你到底为什么还要买呢？是啊，我不知道。新粉丝？我实在无法想象会有新人直接跳进来花300美元左右买这个。不可能。

So what are you really here for? Yeah. I don't I don't know. New fans? I don't I don't I can't imagine a new person just jumping in and dropping $300, give or take No.

买这个游戏。所以，再说一次，尤其是虽然没有新规则，但可能那些超级粉丝想要升级版的配件，因为他们热爱《神秘大地》，而这是升级版。所以这就是你的百万美元目标吧，大概差不多。

On this game. So, and again, especially since it's no rules, but maybe, like, the, super fans who want to have the upgraded pieces because, like, they love Terra Messica and this is upgraded. So there's your million dollars, I guess, more or less.

是啊。我的意思是，没错。它至少能赚一百万。所以我很好奇它会是什么样子。我不会支持它，因为我已经有自己喜欢的版本了。

Yeah. I mean, yeah. It'll make a million dollars at least. So I I don't I'm I'm excited to see what it is. I'm not gonna back it because I have the versions I like.

当然。我很期待看他们会怎么处理它，以及它会有多贵得离谱。所以

But Sure. I'm excited to see what they do with it and how stupidly expensive it is. So

我们刚才就在讨论东西超级贵。看到了吧？

We were just talking about things being super expensive. See?

是的。没错。是的。

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

又绕回来了。但我不确定。我本来希望看到一些我期待的东西，就像你提到的，所有其他版本汇集在一起，形成一个终极版。是的。但事实并非如此。

It came back around. But I don't know. I would have liked to seen something that I would have liked to seen, like like you mentioned, all the other versions kind of coming together for, like, an ultimate edition. Yeah. But that is not the case.

再说一次，有些人对此感到高兴。所以我并不生气，因为开心的人就开心。这对他们来说很棒。

And again, some people are happy about that. So I am not mad at that because happy people are happy. That's awesome for them.

是的。是的。有没有一款游戏你会愿意花这么多钱？就像我之前支持了《勃艮第城堡》，我现在仍然很高兴我这么做了。我喜欢它。

Yeah. Yeah. Is there a euro for which you would pay this kind of money for? It's like, I did back Castles of Burgundy, and I'm still happy I did. I like it.

好吧。但我没有支持他们做的其他四款，包括这个，因为我觉得我不需要那些。

Okay. But I've not backed any of the other, like, four, including this that they've done down, because I'm like, I don't need any of that.

你问得真有趣。是啊，我不知道。这真是个很好的问题。因为欧元在过去十年里总体上一直相当昂贵。

That's funny you asked. Yeah. I don't know. That's a really good question. Because euros just generally over the last decade were have been pretty expensive.

我的意思是，最初它们是60美元，但你想啊，像《洞穴农夫》刚出来时大概是90美元。而且《农家乐》还有那么多扩展。所以那通常真的很贵。我是说，蜥蜴系列也是——蜥蜴是我最先想到的。但即使是那些，大概也要1.20美元左右吧，差不多。

I mean, initially they were $60, but like, if you think Caverna was like $90 when it came out. So and Acricola has so many more expansions to it. That that's just generally really expensive. I mean, the Lacerta's were also I would Lacerta's the first thing I I came to my mind. But even those were, like, what, $1.20, give or take Yeah.

当那些出来的时候。它们已经相当不错了。就像

When those came out. And they're already pretty nice. Like

哦，是的。它们非常棒。你必须——而且再说，Feld的Feld出来了。我猜可能得是Feld的吧。话虽如此，他们确实出了城市收藏系列，但我讨厌它。

Oh, yeah. They're amazingly nice. You have to and again, the Feld Feld came out. I I guess it would probably have to be a Feld. That being said, they did come out with the City Collection, and I hate it.

那倒是真的。

So That's true.

而且我——而且我拥有它。所以别——别——别在评论区写。我确实拥有它。但是，是啊。我的意思是，我猜还是有一些游戏没有被重印，比如一些老的欧式游戏。

And I and I own it. So don't don't don't be don't be writing in the comments. I I do own it. But yeah. I mean, I guess there are still some games out there that have not like, old euros that have not gotten, like, reprinted.

是的。

Yeah.

但是，再说一次，那些都是比较小众的游戏。我的意思是，我不确定，但再说一次，这些欧式游戏中有多少真的需要升级，

So but, again, those are, like, lesser known games out there. I mean, I don't but, again, how many of those euro games really need an upgrade that,

因为，比如说，如果你拿

like because, like, if you took

一个LeSter，你真的没法再升级太多了。如果你拿一个Feld游戏来升级，就像你做的那样，你并没有做得更好。而且，有时候如果里面本来就没有很多配件，也就没什么可全面升级的。

a LeSter, you really can't upgrade it much more. If you took a Feld and you upgraded, which you did do, you didn't do a better job. And also, sometimes there's nothing to really fully upgrade if there's not a lot of pieces already in there.

对。不。你需要像勃艮第城堡这样的游戏，它的配件质量很差，但游戏本身很棒。对吧？那是因为这个游戏在亚马逊上一直只卖20美元。

Right. No. You need a game like Castles of Burgundy where the piece like, the quality of the components is bad, but the game is really good. Right? That was because that was a game forever you could get on Amazon for $20.

就像那个破旧的Alea版勃艮第城堡。我一直用的就是那个。我觉得还行，但有点粗糙，玩起来手感不好。所以升级版让我觉得，哦，这真的很不错。但我真想不出还有别的游戏符合这个条件。

Like, the the crappy old Alea copy of Castles of Burgundy. And that's what I had forever. And I'm like, it's fine, but it's like kinda cruddy and the the the it doesn't feel nice to play with. And so an upgrade, I'm like, oh, this is really nice. I can't really think of anything else that fits that bill though.

因为就像你说的，现在大多数欧式游戏都做得挺扎实的。是的。所以它们也很贵。比如，我觉得Converna可能不错。但那是个100美元的游戏。

Because like you said, most of these most of the modern euros are pretty solid. Yeah. And they're expensive as a result. Like, I'm like, oh, Converna might be nice. Like, that's a $100 game.

我不需要升级，比如

I don't need an upgrade Like of

嗯，你会得到一个升级版，是什么来着？奥丁的和平，对吧？那将会

Well, you're gonna get an upgrade of what is it? Peace for Odin. Right? That's gonna

一个新版本。是的。

A new version. Yeah.

我的意思是，

I mean,

那会很贵。而且那是那是

that's That'll be expensive. And that's That's

一个升级。不过没错。但那也是一个原本质量就非常高的游戏的升级版。对吧。是的。

an upgrade. But yeah. But that's also an upgrade of a game that's really high quality to begin with. Right. Yeah.

我的意思是，就其本身而言，它确实有很多组件。不过我倒是有一个推荐给你，或者说可能有两个。马可波罗游记。

I mean, for what it is, it it really has a lot of components. I do have one for you, though, I think, or maybe possibly two. The voyages of Marco Polo.

哦，看吧。是的。那是个好选择，因为

Oh, see. Yeah. That that's a good call because

那个洛伦佐，或者洛伦佐和，或者洛伦佐。洛伦佐，也许吧。

that Or Lorenzo or Lorenzo and or Lorenzo. Lorenzo, maybe.

洛伦佐主要是卡牌游戏。比如说，没有太多可以升级的地方，但马可波罗，百分之百，你可以做个垫子。扩展包已经绝版很久了。你买不到那个。所有的推广品，那些推广品现在都找不到了。

Lorenzo is most it's mostly cards. Like, there's not a lot there to upgrade, but Marco Polo, a 100%, you could do a mat. The the expansion is expansion's been out of print forever. You can't get that. All the promos those promos are impossible to find now.

是的。我来告诉你什么可以升级，其实很简单，就是骆驼。

Yeah. I'll tell you what could be upgrade from that, which is really simple, is the camels.

是的。说实话，所有的组件，因为它们看起来都差不多，哪个是一哪个是三？是的，我不知道。

Yeah. All all the components, honestly, because they're like, which one's a one and which one's a three? Yes. I don't know.

是的。我的微缩扩展包在某个地方，希望还在。希望我没弄丢。希望它没有消失或者自己走掉了。

Yeah. My micropull expansion somewhere, hopefully. Hopefully, I didn't lose it. Hopefully, it didn't disappear and walk out.

是的。

Yeah.

但是，是的，我认为那些游戏，显然，升级一下会很好。但并没有太多。我的意思是，我猜如果你真的想追溯很远并且彻底改变，比如电力公司。电力公司是一个有很多地图的游戏，棋盘上的棋子可以做得更好一点。

But, yes, I think that those certainly those class of games, obviously, would be nice to be upgraded. But there aren't a lot. I mean, I I guess I guess if you really wanted to go far back and really change, like, Power Grid. Power Grid is Power Grid's a game that has a lot of maps and could have a little bit better on the pieces on the board.

而且他们过去也做过自己的周年纪念版，但没有一个做得好的。

And they've they've done their own, like, anniversary editions in the past, and none of them are ever good.

没错。我就是这个意思。

No. That's what I'm saying.

他们还一直在用纸质钞票，拜托给我们金属筹码吧。现在没人想在游戏里用纸质钞票了，太糟糕了。

And they keep doing paper money, like, give us the brass chips. Nobody wants paper money in a game anymore. It's terrible.

他就喜欢这个。他超爱他的纸质钞票。

He loves that. He loves his paper money.

我知道。

I know.

我是说，帝国版，如果你们做的话，你知道，

I mean, Imperial, if you did, you know,

帝国版可以做成《帝国2040》之类的。我们好像没有MacGurts游戏的豪华精装版吧？我是说，《康考迪亚》有。但那也不算很豪华，就只是普通版。

Imperial could be something Imperial 2040. We don't have, like, a really nice fancy version of any MacGurts games, do we? I mean, Concordia. But that's not that's not that fancy. That's just.

是的。我的意思是，我不...我是说，卡牌非常精美。上面的美术设计很棒。至于游戏版图，从艺术角度来说可能有点杂乱。但我认为康考迪亚，人们讨厌的可能是盒子封面。

Yeah. I mean, I don't I mean, the cards are very nice. The artwork is nice on that. I mean, the boards are can be a little bit all over the place as far as art is concerned. But I I think Concordia I guess the thing that people hated was the the cover of the box.

对吧？封面上的那位女士。但他们确实修改了她。是吧？

Yeah. Right? That that lady on there. But they did change her. Right?

他们确实升级了那个美术设计。所以我想说的是康考迪亚，但Matt Gertz设计的游戏——如果你想玩一款真正的好游戏，这么说吧。如果你想理解世界是如何运作的，真正地，比如全球政治如何被寡头统治等等，像《帝国》系列，显然《帝国2040》更好。但同样，这是款非常出色的游戏。不过我记得那款游戏也用了纸质货币，如果我没记错的话。

They did get they did upgrade that artwork. So I guess Concordia, but the Matt Gertz game, if you ever played if you wanna play a really good game let me put it this way. If you wanna understand how the world operates, like, legitimately, And, I mean, global pro go global politics and how it's ruled by oligarchs and everything else, like Meckerts, imperial, and then obviously imperial twenty forty is better. But, again, it's it's a very brilliant game. But I think that game also had, wanna say that also had paper money, if I remember correctly.

对。对。对。那是...

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was I

我这里有原版的副本。是啊，美好时光。和精致游戏共度的美好时光，看着它们展现精致的设计。我很期待看到它。

have a copy of the original somewhere back here. So yeah. Good times. Good times with fancy games doing their fancy things. I look forward to seeing it.

是的。更多《神秘大地》风格的游戏，老兄。如果我告诉你，与《神秘大地》截然相反的不是欧式策略游戏，不是木质配件。是塑料的，伙计，但这是《王国死亡：怪兽》那种风格的塑料，因为这款游戏是基于有史以来最残酷暴力、最怪物横行的漫画之一——《剑风传奇》的砍杀式战役地牢爬行游戏。

Yeah. More Terror Mystica, man. Yeah. What if I told you on the opposite end of Terror Mystica is not not a euro, not wood components. It is plastic, buddy, but it is plastic in the kingdom death monster kind of vibe because this game is your hack and slash campaign dungeon crawler based upon one of, if not the, most brutally violent and monstrous mangas of all time, it's Berserk, the board game.

看起来像是

It seems like

天作之合。我很惊讶居然花了这么长时间。

a natural fit. I'm surprised it took so long.

是啊。我我我...我不知道。就像，再说一次，这个目前正在GameFound上众筹。所以，如果你是《剑风传奇》的忠实粉丝，这个消息值得关注。实际上，你还可以免费获得一个独家敌人手办。

Yeah. I I I I'm I'm I'm I don't know. Like, again, this is this is up currently on GameFound. So, if you're if you're a big Berserk fan, this is good to know. And in fact, you can get an exclusive enemy figure for free.

那是格里菲斯。你必须要有格里菲斯，因为他是——我不会剧透——但他是漫画中非常重要的角色，我就说这么多。让创伤开始吧，各位。不过这款游戏主要是关于主角格斯的故事。

That's Griffith. You gotta have Griffith because he's, I won't spoil anything for you. But he's he's a guy in the in the manga that's very important, and I will leave it there. Let the trauma begin, folks. But primarily, this game is about the the the MC in this in this game is, Guts.

他实际上是有史以来漫画中最有趣的主角之一。这是一部你能想象到的最深刻、最可怕、最奇妙、最励志、最折磨人、最富哲理的漫画。我的意思是，你看动画时会觉得'哦，他们开枪打中了那个人'或者'那个怪物有点吓人'，但跟这个完全没法比。

And he is one of, in fact, one of the most interesting main characters in manga, of all times. And it is a very deep, horrible, wondrous, inspirational, torturous, philosophical manga that you you could ever imagine. I mean, it is like you know, you watch you watch anime, and you're like, oh, they shot the guy. Oh, that was that was a thing, or, oh, that monster is kinda scary. Like, that's not a thing compared to this.

这才是真正的心理创伤。漫画本身非常有趣。动画版本质量参差不齐，取决于你看的是哪个版本，确实需要重启制作。如果你了解这个世界的设定，就会发现里面有大量畸形怪诞的恶魔生物，更不用说我们的主角了。而现在它们全都变成塑料模型了。

Like, this is some real this is some real trauma here. It's very interesting as far as the manga. The animes are kind of hit and miss depending on what version you watch and certainly could definitely use a reboot as far as the the anime is concerned. But if you know anything about the the world and universe about it, it has a lot of lotta lotta lotta monstrous, grotesque, demonic creatures, not to mention our hero here. And it they're all in plastic, man.

成堆的塑料模型，如果放在架子上会让你夜不能寐，因为它们可能会爬出来找你。

Like, tons of plastic that will keep you up at night if you put them on your shelves because they might come and get you.

就是提醒一下。

Just saying.

这里的某些怪物非常吓人。有英雄角色，你扮演其中一位英雄。这个小团队里有多个英雄，一起对抗并消灭怪物。但我得说，这些雕塑模型真是太棒了。它们虽然很恐怖，但细节超级精致。

It's very scary, some of these monsters here. There are heroes, and you play one of the heroes. There are multiple heroes in this little gang group to kinda fight back and soul the monsters. But I will say, again, the the sculpts here are amazing. Like, they are horrifying, but they're super well detailed.

再说一次，这些看起来都是数字版本，我猜不是最终成品。但如果你想晚上睡不着觉，就去Game Found上的《Berserk》桌游页面，一定要一直往下滚动看看所有不同的怪物。没错，怪物们。

Again, these these are all kind of like, I'm I'm assuming these are all, like, digital versions of it, not not the final product here. But, if you wanna stay up at night, go to the berserk, the board game on game found, and score make sure you scroll all the way down to see all the different monsters. Yeah. Monsters.

是啊，不，看起来挺有意思的。像...我我没怎么接触过《Berserk》这部漫画。

Yeah. No. It looks it looks interesting. Like, I I have not partaken much of Berserk, the manga.

所以你能睡个好觉

That's why you can sleep at night

因为...没错，完全正确。我睡得像个婴儿，完全没问题。这也是Monolith做的。

because Yeah. Exactly. I I sleep like a baby. It's no problem. This is Monolith too.

像...Monolith做过很多大项目。他们做过《柯南》和《蝙蝠侠：哥谭市编年史》。所以他们很懂怎么做微缩模型，我相信这些最终看起来就会是这样。所以看起来很酷。

Like, and Monolith has done a lot of big stuff. Like, they did Conan and Batman, Gotham City Chronicles. So they know how to do a miniature, and I trust that these will look like this. So it's cool looking.

没错，看起来非常酷。我的意思是，这些艺术设计和游戏设定直接源自漫画，实际上可能会非常出色。而且他们游戏设计做得很好，看起来一切都很巧妙地整合在一起。我本来希望这能更侧重文明部分，因为人类文明在游戏中扮演重要角色。

Yeah. It's very cool looking. I mean, the the artwork, the game design straight out of the manga here, could be excellent, in fact. And, you know, they do a really good job with the game design here, and it seems like everything was put together smartly. I would have loved this to have been more of a cut because civilization human civilization plays a big part.

所以我真的很希望他们能更欧式一点，因为我觉得那样角色发展会更丰富，游戏玩法也更注重这方面。但是，如果你错过了《Kingdom Death: Monster》，又想找一款有类似氛围的游戏，再加上它本身就有惊人的背景故事，我是说，选这个肯定不会错。这绝对是末日风格的。再说，如果你想在桌面上玩模型游戏，想要一些真正 monstrous 的东西，对吧？

So I really would love to see them go a little more euro ish just because I think there's more character development and that kind of gameplay is concerned. But, if kingdom death monster, if you missed it and you're looking for something with that kind of vibe to it, and again, with an amazing backstory to it, I mean, can't do wrong with this. This is definitely apocalyptic looking. And again, if you wanna play miniatures on a board, you want something that is, like, really monstrous. Right?

你不想只是，嘿，又一个普通暴徒。他拿把剑，这个拿个钉头锤。不行。

You don't wanna just like, hey. It's another generic thug. He's got a sword. This one's got a mace. Like, no.

不行。有怪物在吃人。所以你想把这个摆在桌上给孩子们玩。只是说说而已。但它看起来很酷。

No. There's monsters eating people. So you wanna put on the table for the kids. Just saying. But it looks cool.

看起来很有趣。是的。是的。如果你想要一个英雄来救你，格斯就是那个人。我这么说是因为他砍穿一切。

Looks fun. Yeah. Yeah. And if you want a hero to save you, guts is the guy. I'm just saying because he he cuts through everything.

他是最棒的。好了，这就是我们的预览环节。安东尼，说到这里，我们有一期超级大的节目，因为我们要做所有的对决，所有在BGA历史上相互对决过的游戏。所有伟大的对决，所有伟大的剧集。

He's he's the best. Alright. Well, that's our role for preview. Anthony, with that being said, we got a super big episode because we're doing all the verses, all the games that have versed each other in BGA history. All the great verses, all the great episodes.

事实上，我们将回顾所有这些伟大的对决，因为这就是对决。所有的战斗，没有规则，我们正在做这件事。我们要回溯过去。很多人会生气，因为有些人喜欢一款游戏，有些人喜欢另一款。我们会把这两款游戏拆开，让它们相互碰撞，因为再说一次，游戏是为了好玩，不一定是你的股票投资组合的一部分。

We're in fact going to take all of those great verses and revisit them because it's a versus. All the battles, none of the rules, We're doing it. We're going back to it. A lot of people are gonna get angry because some people like one game and some people like another game. And we're gonna pull those both apart and throw them at each other because, again, games are meant to be fun and not necessarily part of your stock portfolio.

是的。没错。别再囤东西了。

Yes. Yeah. Stop saving stuff.

只是说说而已。确实有这么回事。

Just saying. It's a thing.

是的。所以，

Yep. So,

内森，让我们让我们回到很久以前，回到第35期节目。那是很多年前的事了，老兄。是的。第35期。那好像是500多期以前了。

Nathan, let's let's go way back, way back to episode 35. That's a lot of years ago, man. Yeah. Episode 35. That's, like, more than 500 episodes ago.

是的。我

Yeah. I

事实上，我认为这是我们最早的一期对决节目，就是第35期，Kemet对决Cyclades。

think this is, in fact, our very first versus episode, and this was episode 35, Kemet versus Cyclades.

我觉得挺有趣的。就像，我们要回顾的这些节目中，有很多我其实不太记得录制过。

I it's funny. Like, there's a bunch of these we're gonna go through that I don't actually quite remember recording.

因为你那是你头部受伤导致的

Because you it's the head injuries that you got from

是的。所有的头部受伤。当然。

the Yeah. All the head injuries. Sure.

播客上人们非常愤怒。他们当时情绪很激动。是的。

People were very angry on the podcast. They were they were through things. Yeah.

我特别记得是在丹尼尔家录的这期，还记得录制过程中逐渐产生的争执。这就是为什么我们坚持做这些节目的原因，我当时就想，哇，那真是场精彩的对话，因为我们当时在生对方的气。太棒了。我们连续玩了这两款游戏，是的。我记得是在你家背靠背玩的。

I very specifically remember recording this at Daniel's house, and I remember the contentiousness that developed while we were recording it. This was what this was this is the reason we kept doing these, because I'm like, wow, that was a good conversation, because we were mad at each other. That's great. We had played both of these games Yes. Back to back at your house, I believe.

你玩了。除了你之外，所有人的共识都是Kemet显然是更优秀的游戏。异端邪说。所以是三比一，认为Kemet更好，你知道，我比其他人更摇摆不定，但丹尼尔就说，不。Cyclades是个糟糕的游戏，而Kemet太棒了。

You did. And the the takeaway that everybody except for you had was that Kemet was by far the superior game. Heresy. And so it was three against one that, Kemet was and, you know, I was I was more wishy washy than others, but Daniel was like, no. Cyclades is a terrible game, and Kemet's amazing.

那非常有趣。他

And it was it was very funny. He

确实抽到了飞马卡，我当时就警告过大家，飞马卡有点过于强大了（OP）。

did pull the Pegasus card, which I did warn everybody, the Pegasus card was a little OP.

是的。没错。嗯。丹尼尔有找到那些过于强大（OP）的东西并破坏游戏平衡的习惯。是的，他确实如此。

Yeah. That's true. Mhmm. That's Daniel had a habit of finding the the OP thing and breaking games. Yes, he did.

是的，又是Kemet，这是Kemet的原版。对我来说，在当年，这是个非常平淡的棋盘游戏。Kemet的出色之处在于你不能龟缩在角落里，必须主动出击才能获得胜利点数。

Yeah. Kemet again, this is the original version of Kemet. This was I mean, for me, back in the day, this was a very bland board. What was great about Kemet was you couldn't turtle in a corner. You had to get out there to gain victory points.

游戏里有士兵、战士、地图上的怪物。Kemet和Cyclades来自同一家公司。其中一个有趣的事情是它们推出了联动扩展包，可惜我从没机会入手。那个扩展包允许你将另一个游戏里的怪物互相引入对方游戏。但Kemet，我确实非常喜欢当年的Kemet。

It was, soldiers, warriors, monsters on the map. And Kemet and Cyclades came from the same company. So also one of those interesting things is they had a crossover expansion, which unfortunately never I don't think I was ever able to pick up. But then a crossover expansion where you could play the monsters from, you know, the other box into each other. But Kemet I I did like Kemet a lot from back in the day.

我记得借来带到游戏之夜，遇到了很多玩家都说'嘿，我想玩这个'。那是个非常有趣的不同版本的游戏，因为在Kemet和Cyclades问世之前，区域控制类游戏都非常枯燥，对吧？

I remember borrowing it and bringing us a game night. I met a lot of game people who were just like, hey. I wanna play that. I remember, like, that was a that was a really fun different version of game because up until that point before Kemet and Cyclades came out, area control games were very dry. Right?

要么是完全确定性玩法，要么就是扔一堆骰子。而Kemet和Cyclades真正引入了欧式机制。Kemet有必须争夺的胜利点区域，Cyclades则有经济市场——投入金钱、赞美神灵就能获得特殊能力。就像我提到的珀伽索斯，允许你移动并攻击。而在Cyclades中通常需要为神灵投入资金。

It was very much either deterministic or you were throwing a bunch of dice. And now Kemet Cyclades really brought a euro mechanic into it. So Kemet had those victory point areas you had to claim, and then Cyclades had this economic market where, putting the money in, praising the gods, got you their special ability so you could be able to do something. Because Cyclades, like I mentioned, the Pegasus, allowed you to move and attack. Whereas, typically in Cyclades, you had to you had to put money towards the god.

那是竞价机制。竞标成功就能执行神灵赋予的行动。如果回归原版，我仍然更喜欢Cyclades，因为它更有文明建设的元素——通过建造提供不同加成的都城，扩张获取更多资源来强化军队和与神灵互动。有时神灵效果还是随机的。

It was a bidding mechanic. And if you won, you got to do that action that the god gave you. If I go back to the original versions of this, I still do like Cyclades better because I do like the idea that there's more of a civilization building element to it because you are building up these metropolises that are giving you different benefits. And then being able to being able to expand to gain more resources benefits you for your for your troops and also to dealing with the gods. And sometimes the gods can be random.

显然Cyclades和Kemet都推出了扩展包。所以对我来说原版还是Cyclades更胜一筹。我依然热爱这款游戏，它也和Kemet一样进行了超级重制，不过我两个重制版都没玩过。

And, obviously, Soucles had expansions as as as did Kemet. So, I think at least the original, it's it's still Soucles for me on that. I still love the game. It it's had a super reboot as well, I think, as Kemet did. I haven't played either no.

我玩过Kemet超级重制版，还没玩过Cyclades超级重制版，但确实想入手。

I I have played Kemet super reboot. I have not played Teclade super reboot yet, but I did wanna pick it up.

自从上次在你家玩过之后，我就再没玩过《Cyclades》，所以我选《Kemet》。

I haven't played Cyclades since that time at your house, so I'm gonna go with Kemet.

好吧。就这样吧。又决定不了了。需要丹尼尔的时候他在哪儿呢？他现在在中国某个地方听着这期节目，对着他的播客播放器大喊大叫。

Alright. There you go. Can't decide again on that. Where's where's Daniel when you need him? He's somewhere in China right now listening to the episode and yelling at his, podcast player.

我们就我们就采纳他的投票吧。《Kemet》赢了。

We'll just we'll just take his vote. Kermit wins.

嗯，去看看第35期，自己判断一下谁赢了

Well, take a look at episode 35 and judge for yourself to see who wins

那是一次很长的讨论。

on It was a that was a long conversation.

那确实是一次非常长的讨论。

That was a very long conversation.

那是

That was

那也是很久以前的事了。

a long time ago too.

是的。好吧。第39集，我们讲了武田对高野子。那集很有趣。

Yeah. Alright. Episode 39, we had Takeda versus Takanoko. That was fun.

是的。没错。两款游戏都以日本为背景。武田是关于武田道，关于你和其他人沿着这条路前往江户。沿途在不同的地点停留，能够收集资源，还有很棒的食物、很棒的游览、很棒的邂逅、沿途很棒的画作。

Yes. Yeah. Two two games set in Japan. Takeda was about the Takeda Road and about you and other people kind of taking the path down to Edo. And along the way, stop in different spots and being able to pick up resources along with, like, great foods, great visits, great encounters, great paintings along the way.

然后高野子是一款非常有趣的游戏，我认为这是第一款，安东尼，就...爆火的游戏，变成了大概200或300美元的版本。嗯。当然。这是一款熊猫游戏，你在自己的版图上放置竹子以及板块，并让一个农民四处走动，为这些竹子施肥让它们生长。然后有很多与熊猫相关的行动，它会受惊或者饿了之类的，吃不同颜色的竹子。

And then Takanoka was a really interesting game that I think it was the first game, Anthony, that blew up as far as, like, became, like, a 200 or $300 version of it. Mhmm. Sure. This was the panda game in which you are putting bamboo out on your board along with tiles and have a farmer go around in order to fertilize those bamboo for them to grow. And then there's a lot of actions with the with the panda where he gets frightened or he gets hungry and stuff like that, eating the different color bamboo.

所以那个300美元的版本，是木盒版。这是在很少有游戏这么做之前，它有这些巨大的竹秆和这个你可以玩的大熊猫。所以，这两款游戏都很棒。高野子确实有一个超级豪华版，我确实有。它就放在架子上的某个地方。

So the 300 box version, this was wooden box version. This was before any game really did that, and it had, like, these giant stalks of bamboo and this giant panda that you could play with. So, both these games are great. Takayto did have a super deluxe version, which I do have. It's it's somewhere up on the shelf.

它全是白色的，这再次让它几乎不可能拿出来玩而不担心它被弄脏。而且我认为高野子最近被收购了。如果我没记错的话，是Stonemaier Games吗，安东尼？是的。最近收购了？是的。

It's all in white, which again made it almost impossible to ever get that game out without worrying about it getting stained or dirty. And I think Takayto recently got picked up. If I remember, is it Stonemaier Games, Anthony, that Yep. Picked it up recently? Yep.

所以，它仍然很酷。它是一款非常宁静的游戏，对比之下另一款是色彩缤纷、有趣的熊猫游戏。我不记得了，因为我没听第39集。你可能想听听看。我不知道。

So, it's still very cool. It's a very serene game versus a very colorful fun panda game. I don't remember because I haven't listened to episode 39. You might want to. I don't know.

我想今天，你在想什么呢？还记得那时候吗？还记得你今天的感觉吗？你玩过这两款游戏中的任何一款吗？

I think today, what what are you thinking about? This do you remember back then? Do you remember what you feel like today? Have you played either of these games?

是的。我觉得当时Takayto确实更让我有共鸣，因为我不记得自己有多喜欢Takanoko。

Yeah. I think Takayto definitely resonated more with me then, because I don't remember liking Takanoko all that much.

好的。

Okay.

话虽这么说，有人可能会回去听那段话然后说，不，实际上你当时说Takinoko是有史以来最棒的东西，我当时是...看到了吗？以前。因为那几乎是我三分之一的人生之前了。所以两者

That said, somebody could go back and listen to that and be like, no, actually, you said Takinoko was the best thing that ever happened, and I was See? Before. Because that was almost a third of my life ago. So Both

都是很棒的游戏。两款都是非常好的游戏。

are great games. Both are very good games.

是的。它们它们都是非常好的游戏。这可能是那种我们觉得两款都不错，但必须做出选择的对话之一。我觉得我当时更倾向于Takano。

Yeah. They they were very good games. This might have been one of those conversations where we're like, these are both good, but now we have to pick. And I feel like I laid it on Takano.

Takano是一个更休闲的版本。它不是一种滚动移动。就像你选择要走多少步，然后另一个人会因此受益或，你知道，受到伤害。嗯。而Takanoko实际上更像是一款真正的欧式游戏，就比如，你必须做事情来获得胜利点数。

Takano is a is is a more chill version. It's it's it's not a roller move. It's just like you pick how many moves you wanna take, and then the other person benefits or, you know, gets hurt by that. Mhmm. Well, where, Takanoko is actually more of a real euro game as far as, like, you have to do things to gain victory points.

就是说，你需要制定策略，而不是一味地按部就班。所以我认为在这方面，Takaido对我来说仍然胜出，但Tokonoko也是一款很棒的游戏。实际上这两款游戏我都有。

Like, you have to build a strategy instead of just go down a rail. So I think Takaido still wins it out for me on this, but, Tokonoko is still a great game. I have that I have both these games actually, in fact.

好的。接下来是第43集，我完全不记得了。唉，我知道。我的意思是，我记得我们玩过这些。

Alright. Next up, we had episode 43, which I don't remember at all. Aw. I know. I mean, I remember playing these.

我不记得我们当时是怎么评价的了。《火影忍者疾风传》对战《街头霸王》的卡牌构筑游戏。嗯，是的。我们以前经常玩这些卡牌构筑游戏。

I don't remember where we landed on it. Naruto Shippuden versus Street Fighter deck building games. Mhmm. Yeah. We used to play these deck builders.

是的。我们最近还聊过这个。卡牌构筑游戏当时遍地都是。每个人都在做卡牌构筑游戏。我记得我玩过这个，应该是和Drew在新泽西的时候，那时他们还有一家桌游店，后来那种店就慢慢消失了。

Yeah. We talked about this recently. Deck builders were a dime a dozen. Everybody had a deck builder. And I remember playing this, I think, with Drew back in Jersey when they had a a game room store, before that kind of disappeared.

所以这两款游戏，如果我没记错的话，我认为都是Cryptozoic公司的游戏。没错。Cryptozoic以其Cerberus引擎而闻名，这意味着它非常简单，我们过去常称之为‘薯片游戏’，就像DC卡牌构筑游戏那样，是一个非常简单的版本，相比之下，漫威传奇游戏则复杂得多。所以，《火影忍者》，我是大粉丝。我记得查克拉在其中扮演了重要角色，涉及到执行行动和发动攻击之类的能力。

So these I believe both of these correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe both of these were Cryptozoic games. Yeah. Cryptozoic was really famous for their Cerberus engine, which meant, like, basically, it had a very easy we used call it a potato chip game, you know, as far as, like, the DC deck building game, where it was a fit a very simple version versus, the mar Marvel Legendary game, which had a lot more complications put into it. So, Naruto, big fan. And I think Chakra played a big part, if I remember correctly on this, as far as being able to take actions and do attacks and things like that.

然后是《街头霸王》，又是经典的双人格斗游戏，现在可能有点3D化了。这两款都是非常优秀的卡牌构筑游戏，而且它们做的事情有些相似。我认为《火影忍者》的Chippendoo（机制）我更喜欢一点，因为查克拉提供了一个额外的机制，而《街头霸王》没有同等水平的新元素。

And then Street Fighter, again, the classic, you know, two d fighting game. I guess it's now slightly three d. And in some cases, both of these were very good deck building games, and both of them kinda did somewhat similar things. I I believe, Naruto's Chippendoo, I did like that a little bit better because the chakra gave it an extra mechanic where Street Fighter didn't have, like, the same level of new stuff that was in play here.

是的，是的，听起来没错。

Yeah. Yeah. That sounds right.

听听第43集，我想，了解更多关于那个的内容。所以

Listen to episode 43 and find out more, I guess, on that. So

是啊。是啊。那是个难题。我想，我不记得玩过

Yeah. Yeah. That's a tough one. I'd like, I don't remember playing

你可能没上那一集。也许那是你没参与的一集，因为我在想那是不是你当时生孩子的时候，第43集。

You may not have been on that episode. Maybe that was an episode that you weren't on because I'm I'm wondering if that was when you had the baby at that point, 43.

我不记得是不是第43集了，嗯。大概就在那附近。

I don't remember if that was '43 or yeah. It's somewhere in there.

就几集而已。

Just a couple of episodes.

大约第

Around episode

50集。你把我一个人丢下和德鲁在一起，我就是这个意思。

50. You left me alone with Drew is what I'm saying.

我做过。是的。大概一个月左右。

I did. Yeah. For like a month.

我觉得那段时间相对比较忙，因为我不光要发布那些剧集，还要剪辑它们，尽管剪辑得不是很好。我只是说说而已。

I think that I think that was a relatively about the time because I think I was editing those episodes on top of posting those episodes on top of every though the editing is not great. I'm just saying.

我记得你剪辑的第一集是第48集。我特别记得是因为音频轨道被分开了，而且

I I remember the first episode you edited was 48. I do specifically remember because the the the audio tracks got split and

啊，是的。

Ah, yeah.

它还在那里。但是

It's it's still there. But

那种风格等等。那是那个关于给动物拍照的感觉游戏吗？

The style of wait. Was that was that that felt game with the taking pictures of the animals?

拉伊斯拉。是的。拉伊斯拉。

La Isla. Yeah. La Isla.

是的。就是这样。我早前稍微想了想，但我记得那个。美好的时光。

Yeah. There you go. I thought a little bit earlier, but, I remember that. Good time.

没错。不。那时候的东西真不错。好了。接下来，我们有DC卡牌构筑游戏危机扩展包对决漫威传奇。

Yep. No. It's good stuff back then. Alright. Next up, we had DC deck building game Crisis Expansion versus Marvel Legendary.

看吧？又是卡牌构筑游戏。

See? More deck builders.

那时候我们只玩这个。我们只玩这个。

It's all we did back then. It's all we did.

那就是我们做的全部，而且没人关心游戏里的卡牌，直到传奇玩家终于开始在意，不得不给所有卡牌套上牌套，这感觉像是一种惩罚。真的像是一种惩罚。

That's all we did, and no one cared about the cards in the game until, like, legendary people finally started carrying and had to sleeve all of their cards, which seemed like a punishment. It's like a real punishment.

我我确实喜欢当年优秀卡牌构筑游戏的自由感，因为那就像1993年玩万智牌时的感觉，在你意识到它们值钱之前。是的。你就是，你知道，随便摆弄它们，把它们都折在一起，然后在十年后想起你曾经拥有什么时偷偷哭一会儿。

I I did love the freedom of a good deck builder back in the day, because that's how it felt playing Magic in 1993 before you realized they were worth anything. Yes. You just, like, you know, mess with them and fold them all together, and then cry a little bit in ten years when you remember what you used to own.

那时候你也会给东西套上一分钱牌套。

That's when you used to put penny sleeves on things too.

哦，是的。是的。

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

是的。而现在就像是，哦，不。我得弄到那种，你知道的，大概四微米或者不管具体多薄的袖子

Yeah. And now it's just like, oh, no. I have to get the sleeves that are, like, you know, four microns or whatever it is at this

锋利到能割伤你。

point. Sharp enough to cut you.

没错。就像是，你能洗这副牌吗？不行。我的手在流血。但我还是想洗牌。

It's true. It's like, could you shuffle this? No. My hand's bleeding. I wanna shuffle this.

这这真的是

This is this is a really

有趣的是这是一种不同的尝试，因为DC卡牌构筑游戏，我们刚讨论过这个。Cryptozoic和Service Engine推出了这些扩展包，它们真的模仿了DC漫画中发生的所有精彩事件，所有那些不同的世界、宇宙和派系互相争斗。但它是一种非常简单、引人入胜的游戏风格，你可以坐下来就玩。漫威传奇是一个体系。而漫威传奇有趣的地方，既有优点也有缺点，就是技术上它是一款合作游戏。

interesting this is a different take because the DC deck building game, we just talked about this. Cryptozoic, Service Engine, they came out with these expansions where, like, it really it really mimicked all the great stuff that happened in the DC comics where all these different, you know, worlds and universes and the factions were fighting together. But it was a very simple, engaging kind of game style that you could just sit down and play. Marvel Legendary was a system. And what was interesting, both good and bad about Marvel Legendary is like, technically, it's a co op game.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

但游戏里还有一条附加规则，就是如果你在游戏结束时个人得分最高，就算赢，不知道为什么会有这样的设定。不过，漫威传奇的问题——同时也是它的优点——在于你可以更换主要反派，以及一些喽啰之类的角色。有时候你玩一局游戏，死活都赢不了；有时候又赢得特别轻松简单。

But there was some sort of, like, if you had the most points individually at the end of the game, you won, which was like a little side rule for some reason. I don't know why they did that. But also the problem with Marvel Legendary, which is also the benefit, was you could swap out the main villain and, I guess, some of the minions and stuff like that. And sometimes you would just play the game and you could not win for the life of you. And sometimes you won the game really simple and easy.

所以，某些英雄对抗特定反派效果更好，反之亦然。我觉得漫威传奇，尤其是随着发展，无疑是更好的游戏。是的，尽管它有很多问题和缺陷，但因为它是一个更完善的系统，我认为……而且我记得那是第47集的内容。

So, again, certain heroes work better against certain villains and vice versa. So I feel like Marvel Legendary, certainly, as it's gone on, is is by far the better game. Yeah. Even though it has a lot of problems and issues, but, like, since it's a system, a a more, like, robust system, I I think that was and I remember because that's episode 47.

对吧？要说现在让我选玩哪款游戏，我可能会选DC卡牌构筑，因为我觉得拿起来就能玩，不用想太多。对，就像你说的，像薯片一样简单。是的。

Right? I will say, if if you ask me which of these games I wanted to play right now, I'd probably say DC deck building because I'm like, I could pick up and play that without having to think about it too much. Yes. Potato chips, as you said. Yeah.

而且危机扩展包还挺不错的。

And the crisis expansion was pretty good.

是的。漫威传奇，我对它挺欣赏的。我觉得异形版是传奇系列里最好的版本。

Yeah. The Marvel Legendary like, I have a lot of appreciation for it. Like, the Aliens version, I feel, is the best version of Legendary.

没错。

Right.

是的。但《漫威传奇》是个大工程，因为设置要花很长时间，收拾起来也很耗时。内容非常多。而且游戏

Yeah. But the Marvel Legendary was a haul because it took a long time to set up. It took a long time to break down. It's a lot. And the game

可能永远玩不完。永远。是的。它就像...大概需要90分钟到四个小时。

could go for forever. Forever. Yeah. It it's like it was like it's gonna take between ninety minutes and four hours.

没错。就像我说的，你也可能轻松获胜。有些随机卡牌会出现，再加上那个奇怪的结束机制。所以，是的，第47集讲了那个。

Yeah. And like I said, you could just win easy too. There's just random cards that kinda came out there, and again, that weird kind of end mechanic. So, yeah, episode 47 on that.

是的。那是一次很好的讨论。第51集，我们对这个非常兴奋。我记得我在布鲁克林的公寓里玩过这个。是的。

Yeah. That's a good conversation. Episode 51, we were very excited about this one. I remember playing this at my Yeah. Apartment in Brooklyn.

《东京之王》对比《纽约之王》。我清楚地记得我们当时的结论，但我觉得我可能后来改变了主意。哇哦。

King of Tokyo versus king of New York. And I remember exactly where we landed on this, and I think I might have changed my mind since then. Woah.

是的。《东京之王》是原版，怪物之王，山丘之王。你操控一个怪物，通过战斗登上山顶，在山顶时得分，但你不必非得占领东京来获胜，因为它是个胜利点游戏，你可以通过获得声望获胜，或者击倒所有其他人。《纽约之王》是后来推出的，更有趣和动态，因为建筑和所有人类阵营这些NPC有坦克、飞机等等。如果你摧毁它们，你会获得好处，但如果它们在回合结束时在你的位置，你也可能遭到攻击等等。

Yeah. So, king of Tokyo, the original, king of the monsters, king on the hill. You get a monster, you fight up you fight people to get on top of the hill, you score points while on the top hill, but you don't have to get to the, the top of Tokyo to win the game because it is a victory point game, and you can gain fame to win, or you can knock everybody else. King of New York, which came later, was interesting and dynamic because the buildings and all of the human faction, these NPCs, had tanks and planes and stuff. And if you destroyed them, you would gain benefits or but you could also get attacked if they're in your spot at the end of the round and stuff like that.

所以，《纽约之王》稍微复杂一点，因为它多了一个元素。但是，安东尼，我想我知道你的意思，因为我们最近刚玩过这个，没多久以前。

So, a little more crunchy as far as king of New York because there's an extra element to it. But, Anthony, I think I know what you're saying because we played this recently, not that long ago.

对，是的。那个，关于《纽约之王》的事情是，当我们最初玩它的时候，我们觉得，哦，这太棒了。它增加了更多内容。是的。

Right. Yes. It it's it's a so the thing about King of New York is when we first played it back then, we're like, oh, this is great. It adds more stuff. Yeah.

它更有趣。更像是一个游戏玩家的游戏。是的。而且我觉得我当时对这个爱好还比较新，所以这正是我想要的。就像，我不希望游戏对我居高临下，或者至少我是这么感觉的。

It's more interesting. It's more of a gamer's game. Yes. And I feel like I was new enough to the hobby that that's what I wanted. Like, didn't want games to talk down to me, or that's at least how I felt.

嗯。快进十多年后，我就想，嗯，我想要的是可以和更多人一起玩、容易教学、有重玩性和持久性的游戏。当然。《纽约之王》在其中的几个检查点上有点失败。即使有人知道《纽约之王》或《东京之王》，教起来也要花更长的时间。

Mhmm. Fast forward more than a decade, and I'm like, well, I want games that I can play with more people and that are easy to teach and that have replayability and longevity. Sure. And King of New York kind of fails on a few of those checkpoints. It takes a lot longer to teach, even if somebody knows King of New York or King of Tokyo.

《东京之王》，我可以在三十秒内教会那个游戏。大家都知道骰子机制，然后你加入能量卡，可以在玩的时候使用。我我非常喜欢《纽约之王》，但《东京之王》就像是一个永恒的经典。尤其是现在，它推出十五年后。很容易回顾并说，哦，那个游戏很棒，它在教室里适用，和我的孩子们一起玩也行，在展会上也适用。

King of Tokyo, I can teach that game in, like, thirty seconds. Everybody knows a Yahtzee mechanic, and then you throw in the power up cards, which you can do as you play. I I I like King of New York a lot, but King of Tokyo is just, like, it's an all time classic. Especially now, like, fifteen years after it came out. It's, like, easy to look back and be like, oh, that game is great, and it works in a classroom, and it works with my kids, and it works at a convention.

是的。《纽约之王》没有做到这些，因为它很难经常拿出来玩。

Yeah. King of New York, hasn't done any of those things because it's hard to get out as much.

是的。我同意。我相信《纽约之王》也是我当时更喜欢的那一个。是的。而且我现在还拥有它。

Yeah. I would agree. I I believe King of New York was the one I liked better as well back then. Yeah. And I still own it.

从技术上讲，我仍然更喜欢它。没错。话虽如此，就像你说的，《东京之王》只是更容易上手。是的。那些关于建筑、坦克、飞机等等的额外规则，只是增加了一点复杂性，也许《东京之王》并不需要这些。

And technically, I still like it better. Right. That being said, like you said, King of King of Tokyo is just much more accessible. Yeah. That extra rule with the buildings and the the tanks, the planes, and everything else just kind of adds a little more complexity to it that maybe King of Tokyo did not need to have.

然后很明显，东京系列继续推出了更复杂的扩展和不同的游戏，对吧？但我认为你们应该就此打住。你们已经做过了类似的东西。所以，是的，技术上来说《纽约之王》是更好的游戏，但《东京之王》可能是我几乎每次都会拿出来的游戏，除非我想向别人展示‘看，这是纽约版’。

And then obviously, of Tokyo went on to have more complex expansions and Right. Different games, which is just like, I think you I think you should have stopped. You know? Like, it's you you kinda did it already. So, yes, I think King of New York is the better game just, like, technically, but King of Tokyo is probably the one I'll I'm gonna probably pull almost always unless I wanna show somebody, look, this is New York.

这不是很有趣吗？是纽约啊。是的，是的。这很酷。而东京版真的没有任何层次感。

Isn't that funny? It's New Yeah. Yeah. That is cool. Whereas Tokyo really doesn't have any kind of, like, dimension to it.

它就像是棋盘上一个随机的形状。

It's just, like, random shape on the board.

对。是的。确实如此。是的。好吧。

Right. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. Okay.

所以我真喜欢我们俩想法完全一致，但我们却互换了立场。这太棒了。

So I love how we're both on the exact same page, but we switched both switched sides. That's great.

就是这样。

There you go.

好了。第56集绝对是1对1的对决。Boss Monster对战Munchkin。当然。我不喜欢Munchkin。

Alright. Episode 56 was definitely a one v one. Boss monster versus Munchkin. Sure. I don't like Munchkin.

我还是不喜欢《Munchkin》。这不是一款我喜欢的游戏。《Boss Monster》，当年，至少是在2014年，第56期的时候，原版。原版。是的。

I still don't like Munchkin. I this is not it's not a game I enjoyed playing. Boss monster, back in the day, at least, episode 56 day, back in twenty fourteen, twenty The original. The original. Yeah.

他们现在出了《Boss Monster 2》，还有所有的扩展包。他们有《Overboss》，各种不同的游戏。它依然很受欢迎。我不久前还玩过。我让我的学生玩过，也和我的孩子们一起玩过。

They have Boss Monster two out now, all the expansions for it. They have Overboss, all these different games. It still holds up. I've played it not too long ago. I've had my students play it, and I played it with my kids.

这是一款有趣、巧妙、像素风格的关于穿越地牢的游戏。是的。试图或阻止英雄穿越你的地牢。《Munchkin》就是《Munchkin》。我的意思是，我尊重并理解你为什么喜欢它。但它不适合我。

And it's it's a fun, clever, pixel art game about moving through a dungeon and Yeah. Trying to or stopping the heroes from moving through your dungeon. Munchkin is it's Munchkin. I mean, it's for I I respect and understand why you like it. It's not for me.

当然。就是我赢你的那场比赛。对吧？你说的是这个。

Sure. It's that competition I beat you at. Right? That's what you're talking about.

这是一款游戏，前一个小时的游戏过程毫无意义。就是这样。

It's a game where the first the first hour of play is meaningless. That's what it is.