安·克利夫斯：隐藏的深度

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你好。

Hello.

我是雷·温斯顿。

It's Ray Winstone.

我来向大家介绍我在BBC Radio 4的播客《史上最强悍的英雄》。

I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio four, history's toughest heroes.

我将讲述那些定义'强悍'的先锋者、反叛者和被放逐者的故事。

I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.

那是第一次有人开着没轮胎的车跑那么快。

And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on.

感觉眼球都快从眼眶里蹦出来了。

It almost feels like your eyeballs are gonna come out of your head.

够强悍吗？

Tough enough for you?

订阅《史上最强悍的英雄》，在任意播客平台均可收听。

Subscribe to history's toughest heroes wherever you get your podcast.

BBC Sounds，音乐、电台、播客。

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.

你好。

Hello.

欢迎来到读书俱乐部。

Welcome to Book Club.

我们身处诺森伯兰郡，这里是我们的作家安妮·克利夫斯的家乡，近二十年来她一直在创作畅销书。

We're in Northumberland, the county that is the home of our author, who's been writing bestsellers for nearly two decades, Anne Cleves.

我们要介绍的书是《隐藏的深度》，这是维拉·斯坦霍普系列小说之一，安妮围绕这位侦探编织了许多犀利而富有氛围感的故事。

Our book is Hidden Depths, a Vera Stanhope novel, one of the detectives around whom Anne has woven such sharp and atmospheric stories.

另外两位侦探分别是设得兰群岛的吉米·佩雷斯和德文郡的马修·文恩。

The others being Jimmy Perez in Shetland and Matthew Venn in Devon.

但此刻，我们作为阿尔尼克镇'意外书店'的荣幸客人，正赶上小镇一年一度的故事节——我们将跟随维拉，这位初次登场时被称为'胖女人侦探'的主角展开旅程。

But here, where we're the very grateful guests of the accidental bookshop in Alnwick as the town embarks in its annual story fest, We are with Vera, the fat woman detective as she's first introduced to us.

她正在东北部调查一起双尸命案。

She's investigating twin murders here in the Northeast.

第一位受害者是卢克，这个年轻人被发现死在浴缸里，身上铺满了鲜花。

The first victim is Luke, young man found dead in his bath under a carpet of flowers.

通过与他的母亲朱莉交谈，并本能地关注受害者家属及相关人员，维拉·斯坦霍普开始揭开围绕在他们身边的人际关系网——有些联系显而易见，有些则隐藏得很深。

Talking to his mother, Julie, and tuning in instinctively to the families and the individuals connected to the victims, Vera Stanhope begins to lift the veil on the people around them and the links between them, some obvious and some hidden, quite deep.

正是她对人际关系的直觉和感知，最终引导她发现真相——不过既然是惊悚小说兼读书会选书，我们当然会全力避免剧透。

It's her intuition and feeling for these relationships that leads her eventually to the truth, which is always when we're dealing with a thriller and book club, we will do everything to conceal from you.

但可以说的是，这本书展现了安妮的一些个人爱好（比如观鸟），其故事背景也定会唤起所有熟悉并热爱英格兰东北部之人的情感共鸣。

But we can say that the book introduces us to some of Anne's passions, bird watching is one, and that its setting will stir the feelings of anyone who knows and loves the Northeast Of England.

安妮·克利夫斯，欢迎来到读书会。

Anne Cleaves, welcome to book club.

能来这里真是太开心了。

It's so lovely to be here.

你曾提到你崇拜的雷蒙德·钱德勒说过：'当写作陷入困境时，就让角色破门而入'，这话让我印象深刻。

I'm struck by something you said about Raymond Chandler, whom you admire, when he said that if you get stuck, you'd have someone busting through a door.

而在你的故事里，那位叫薇拉的女孩，她仿佛生来就是完整的。

And in your case, that was Vera, and she seemed to arrive fully formed.

那是个小小的奇迹。

It was a little miracle.

是的。

Yes.

当时我遇到一位非常时髦的年轻编辑，她决定再也不连载侦探小说了，因为那些都过时了。

I had a a very trendy new young editor who decided that she was never going to commission series detective novels anymore because they were old fashioned.

没人会读那些东西。

Nobody would ever read them.

她希望我写一部心理悬疑长篇，因为那会儿这类书正畅销。

And please would I write a big novel of psychological suspense because that was what was selling at the time.

那时我在商业上毫无建树。

I was had no commercial success at all at that point.

为了她我什么都愿意写。

I would have written anything for her.

于是我开始构思——我想写一本以北诺森伯兰国家公园为背景的书，关于三个女人的故事。

So I started I had this idea for a a book set in the Northumberland National Park, and it would be about three women.

其中一个会死去，毕竟我没完全脱离这个类型，但书中不会出现侦探。

One of them would die because I wasn't moving that far from the genre, but there would be no detective.

但我不喜欢提前构思情节，结果卡壳了。

But I don't plot in advance, and I got stuck.

就像你说的，我想起雷蒙德·钱德勒的名言，就让某人破门而入。

And as you say, I remembered the Raymond Chandler saying and had someone burst in through a door.

那个闯进来的人是薇拉。

And the person that burst in was Vera.

我知道她的名字。

I had her name.

我把她描述得更像个拾荒婆而非侦探。

I described her as looking more like a bag lady than a detective.

她所有的笔记都装在一个超市购物袋里，而不是公文包。

She had all her notes in a supermarket carrier bag rather than a briefcase.

那时我就认出她了。

And I knew her then.

她是我非常非常熟悉的一个人。

She was somebody that I knew very very well.

因为她的洞察力才是她最非凡的特质。

Because her insight is the extraordinary thing about her.

她按部就班地处理警方程序，但真正关键的是她的直觉。

She goes through the matter of fact business of police procedure but it's the intuition that's the thing.

是啊，直觉。

Yeah, intuition.

我接受过社工培训，我觉得这本质上是对好奇心的培养。

I trained as a social worker and I think it's about curiosity really.

我接受社工培训并不是因为我想做好事。

I didn't train to be a social worker because I wanted to do good work.

我只是对人们有着难以抑制的好奇心。

I was just incredibly nosy about people.

我认为就是这样。

And I think that's what has.

那么让我们去这家偶然书店的读者那里吧。

So let's go to our readers here in the accidental bookshop.

在小说的初期阶段，我们认识了许多看似彼此毫无关联的角色和角色群体。

In the early stages of the novel, we're introduced to a number of characters and groups of characters who seem to have no connection to one another.

随着薇拉的调查，结果发现他们中的许多人确实相互关联。

And then as Vera investigates, it turns out that many of them are indeed interconnected.

作为作者，你能谈谈创造这些关联的过程吗？

As the writer, can you talk about the process of creating those interconnections?

你

Do you

在开始之前就知道它们会是什么样子，还是它们只是自然发展？

know what they're going to be before you start or do they just evolve?

我完全不会提前构思情节。

I don't plot in advance at all.

我不得不重读这本书，因为它是很久以前写的。

And I had to reread this book because it was written a while ago.

当我读它的时候，我在想，他们是怎么都联系在一起的？

And when I was reading it, was like, well, how how do they all come together?

这会如何结束？

How is this going to end?

别告诉我你忘了是谁干的。

Don't tell me you forgot who did it.

我算是做到了。

I kinda did.

是啊。

Yeah.

但我们可以说

But we can say

别再提那事了。

no more about that.

当时有点震惊。

Came as a bit of a shock.

但如我所说，我写作的前二十年几乎没什么商业成就，所以必须乐在其中。

But as I said, I had very little commercial success for the first twenty years of writing, and it had to be fun.

那是种快乐，有点像阅读的感觉。

It was a joy and it was a bit like reading.

我觉得自己是以读者的视角在写作。

And I think I write like a reader.

我需要通过写作来发现故事的发展。

I needed to find out what was going to happen as I was writing.

嗯。

Yeah.

起初我对卢克真的毫无保护欲。

And I I felt very unprotective towards Luke at the beginning.

说实话这让我非常难受，了解到他是如此脆弱。我曾与特殊需求儿童工作过，所以他的遭遇真的让我感到极度痛心。

And I I really found it quite upsetting, you know, sort of learning about how vulnerable he was and I worked with special needs children as well so you know I really felt quite distressed really by what happened to him.

我只是好奇，因为你提到塞缪尔时，他说过，你知道，他能扮演上帝。

And I just wondered, because you talk about Samuel, he mentions, you know, that he's he can play God.

他对这个事实相当漫不经心，哦，你知道，身处北方很棒。

This is he's quite cavalier about the fact, oh, you know, it's great being north.

你可以扮演上帝。

You could get to play God.

我只是有点好奇，你是否曾有过这样的时刻，感觉

And I just kinda wondered, do you ever have moments where you feel

对那些发生在这些角色身上的事情

a little bit guilty for some of the

感到一丝愧疚？

things that happened to these characters?

因为你把他们刻画得如此丰满，然后，你知道，把他们浸入浴缸，这确实有点...

Because you draw them so richly and then, you know, dip them in a bath and it kind of yeah.

我当时真的有点伤心。

Was I was a bit gutted really.

所以我就想知道扮演

So I just wondered how it feels to play

山姆——必须说明的是——是个作家。

Sam, like that has to be said, is a writer.

是的。

Yeah.

我有。

I do.

我想，这是我唯一能掌控自己宇宙的时刻。

It's the only time where I am in control of my universe, I think.

所以或许确实存在某种逃避现实的成分，因为这是我能够掌控的事情。

So perhaps there is a bit of that escapism really, that this is something that I can control.

其实我并不写关于怪物的故事。

I don't write about monsters, really.

我认为我们可以理解这本书中的杀手是如何成为杀手的。

I think we can understand how the killer in this book became a killer.

你是说一个人可以在不表现出明显兽性的情况下变成怪物？

You mean that you can become a monster without being evidently monstrous?

是的。

Yeah.

我想是的。

I think so.

我认为一个人可以做残忍的事而不必是个怪物。

You can do monstrous things without being a monster, I think.

显然，像卢克这样的孩子死去是件可怕的事，我想展现这对家庭的影响。

And, obviously, the death of a child like Luke is a dreadful thing, and I wanted to show the impact on the family.

我希望做到了这一点——让我们理解那位母亲，她多年来第一次外出过夜，本应度过愉快时光，我们都经历过这种处境。

And I hope that I do that, that we understand why the mother, who has just gone out for the first night out for ages and has had a good night out and then and we've all been there.

任何有孩子或亲近之人晚归时，我们都会感到担忧。

Anybody who's had a child or is close to somebody and they're late home and we're worried.

或是当你听到警笛声的时候。

Or you hear a a siren, a police siren.

如果你住在村子里，你会觉得那个人可能是个随性的人。

If you live in a village, you're thinking that it might be the person who's laid back.

而你正琢磨着这些事，我只是把它们写在了纸上。

And you're you're sort of thinking these things, and I've just put them on the page.

后来在小巷里发现一只鞋时也让我深受触动，那条巷子如此熟悉，因为你知道那是他们上学必经之路，这瞬间就让事情变得近在咫尺。

They really got me as well when a bit later on when there's there's a shoe found in the lane, and the lane is so familiar because, you know, that that's where they walk to school, and it it just kind of bring brings it so close to home.

我觉得那个场景也相当令人毛骨悚然。

I find that quite chilling as well, that particular scene.

嗯，希望如此。

Well, I hope so.

这正是我努力想达到的效果。

That's what I'm trying to do.

所以在这部小说里，和你所有作品一样，你营造出如此强烈的场所感。

So in in this novel, as in in all yours, you you developed such a strong sense of place.

还有其他需要亲身经历的环境设定吗？

And other settings that you need to physically experienced?

你是否经常觉得是在回忆某个曾经走过的地方？

Do you often feel it's you're remembering somewhere you've walked?

可能在小说里它不叫那个名字，但你是否必须去过那里？

It may not be called that in your novel, but do you have to have been there?

我必须非常熟悉那个地区。

I have to know the region well.

所以我曾在设得兰群岛生活过。

So I have lived in Shetland.

我在北德文郡长大，现在住在东北部。

I grew up in North Devon, and now I live in the Northeast.

我认为我理解这个地方以及社区凝聚的方式。

And I think that I understand the place and the way that communities come together.

虽然这些都是虚构的地点，但阅读这本书时，部分场景设定在东南部的桑伯兰，那里的村庄，曾经的矿村，那种经历过更好时光的地方感都蕴含其中。

So although they're fictitious places, And reading reading this book, part of it is set, I think, in Southeastern Thumberland, the the villages there, the former pit villages, and that sense of of a place that has known better times is in there.

然后是卡尔弗特一家，他是一位大学教授，她是全职妈妈，他们住在海岸上游一座相当豪华的房子里。

And then there are the the Calverts, and he's a a university professor, and she's a stay at home mom, and they live in rather a grand house further up the coast.

你不觉得吗——虽然我不确定吉姆是否同意——但大多数英国作品都与阶级有关。

And don't you think that I don't know if Jim agrees with this, but most British writing is about class.

是的。

Yes.

再次强调，我关注的是大宅子里那些势利的人，以及那些在海岸下游挣扎求生的居民。

And again, what I'm looking at, the the sort of snobby people in the big house and the people who are who are struggling, who are living a little way down the coast.

这本书让我印象最深刻的是你对鹞鹰翅膀在阳光下转变成桃花心木色的描写，那才是真正的诗意。

One of the things I absolutely remember from the book is the description you make of the the mahogany colour of the wing of the buzzard as it turns in the sun, and that's real poetry.

嗯，我丈夫是个观鸟爱好者。

Well, I had a husband who was a birder.

我不是，但这种爱好像渗透作用一样影响了我。

I'm not, but it fed in like osmosis.

正如吉姆所说，书里有四个观鸟者。

And as Jim said, there are four birders in this book.

我对探索男性友谊很感兴趣，因为我认为这与女性间的友谊截然不同。

I was quite interested in exploring male friendship because I think it's very different from friendship between women.

通常是一种热情或兴趣将截然不同的人们聚集在一起。

And often it is a passion or an interest that brings very different people together.

再者，你可以观察阶级和不同背景。

And again, you can look at class and different backgrounds.

我有两个女儿，突然间她们就成了女婿。

I have two daughters, and suddenly they were sons in law.

而且我对他们与朋友相处的截然不同方式非常感兴趣。

And just very interested in just the very different ways that they got on with their friends.

我记得书中一个角色被问到：如果这个团体中有人犯了谋杀罪，你会告诉我吗？

And I think one of the characters in the book is asked, well, if one of this group had committed murder, would you tell me?

薇拉问道，你会告诉我吗？

Vera asks, would you tell me?

他说，不会。

And he said, no.

当然不会。

Of course not.

如果他们犯了谋杀罪，我知道他们一定有充分的理由。

If they committed murder, I know they'd have a very good reason for doing it.

有人提到，我认识的一个男人确实对我说过类似的话。

And somebody said one of a man that I know actually said something a bit like that to me.

你认为一群男性朋友会...

Do you think And a group of men friends.

无意过于武断，但你认为女性的答案会有所不同吗？

Without wishing to be too sort of dogmatic about this, do you think a woman would have a different answer?

我觉得他们可能会。

I think they might.

是的。

Yes.

我想是的。

I think so.

我认为他们会有一种道德义务去告知，而且可能也不太擅长保守秘密。

I think they would have a a kind of moral imperative to tell and also maybe not so good at keeping secrets.

那么你实际上是如何开始一个故事的？

So how do you actually start on a story?

是谋杀案、情节，还是浮现在脑海中的角色？

Is it the murder, the plot, the characters that come to mind?

是什么激励你开始写那个故事？

What motivates you to get busy writing that story?

我热爱写作。

I love doing it.

所以当我写完一本书时，我已经在思考接下来想讲什么故事了。

So when I finished a book I'm already thinking what story do I want to tell next?

我无法想象退休。

I can't imagine retiring.

按年龄我早该领养老金了，但我实在太热爱写作了。

I am of an age where I should be claiming a pension, but I just love it too much to do that.

我从地点开始构思，所以需要先理解角色生长的社区环境。

I start with place, so I need to understand the community that my characters grow from.

我女儿是学术界人士。

My daughter is an academic.

她是人文地理学家。

She's a human geographer.

我想这也是我所从事的工作。

And I think that's what I do.

我关注的是个体在其社区和所处环境中的状态，因为我认为我们是成长环境的产物——儿时的玩伴、嬉戏的街道、窗外的风景，所有这些塑造了我们。

I'm interested in the individual within their community and within their landscape because I think we are a product of what we grew up, the kids, the streets where we played, the kids that we played with, the view from our windows, all that makes us who we are.

在这部小说里，你把英格兰东北部的天气描写得非常温暖，甚至炎热。

You make the weather in the Northeast Of England appear very warm, even hot in this in this novel.

对于我们这些了解该地区的人来说，这有时有点夸张。

And to some of us who know this area, that's a bit of a stretch sometimes.

我们确实有过炎热天气。

We do have hot weather.

我们有过几个炎热的夏天。

We have some hot summers.

我想写这本书的时候应该刚经历了一个非常炎热的夏天。

Must have been writing it just after a very hot summer, I think.

是啊。

Yeah.

我特别喜欢这一点。

And I I love that.

但天气在故事中很重要，不是吗？

But weather matters in stories, doesn't it?

我认为确实如此。

I think it does.

尤其是当你描写像诺森伯兰海岸或设得兰群岛这样的地方时。

And especially if you're writing somewhere like the Northumberland Coast or like Shetland.

在设得兰群岛尤其如此，天气会告诉你船能否出航、当天能否吃上饭、该走哪扇门——因为当地大多数房屋都有两扇门，具体使用哪扇取决于风向。

Certainly in Shetland, the weather will tell you whether the boat's going to go, whether you're going to eat that day, which door to use because most houses have two doors they use depending on which way the wind's blowing.

这里的海岸地带也基本是这种情况。

And that's very much like that on the coast here too.

你详细解释了很多关于如何开始构建故事的技巧。

A lot of it you've explained how you start building stories.

但你是否曾以凶手为起点，围绕他构建整个故事？

But have you ever had the killer and you built a story around him?

没有，因为我开始写作时经常连受害者是谁都不知道，所以不可能这样做。

No, because I don't know who the victim is quite often when I start, so it would be impossible.

我必须先了解受害者及其社交关系网，才能推断出可能的凶手。

I have to get to know the victim and the social web around the victim before I can possibly know who might have killed them.

所以当你无法推演出情节走向时，会陷入创作瓶颈吗？

So do you get stuck when you can't work out how that's going to evolve?

是的，有时会卡住，但长途火车旅行总能帮我突破瓶颈。

Yes, sometimes I get stuck but then long train journeys are really good.

但这就像阅读一样，不是吗？

But it's like reading, isn't it?

我们阅读时总在试图预测接下来会发生什么，尤其是读犯罪小说时。

If we're reading, we're trying to work out what's gonna happen next, especially if you're reading a a crime novel.

这就是我写作时在做的事。

And that's what I'm doing when I'm writing.

我通常比维拉早到一步。

And I usually get there just before Vera.

所以我觉得这很幸运。

So that's lucky, I think.

我想是时候听听《Hidden Depths》的片段了。

I think it's time to hear something from Hidden Depths.

安妮，在不剧透的情况下告诉我们故事进展到哪了，简单描述下氛围就好。

Tell us where we are in the story without giving anything away and just give us a flavour Anne.

是的，接下来是维拉要去见彼得和费莉西蒂·卡尔弗特。

Yeah, this is Vera going to speak to Peter and Felicity Calvert.

他是大学教授，也是观鸟者。

He's the university professor and the birders.

那是个非常闷热的夏夜，他们都坐在户外。

It's a very hot, sultry summer evening, and they're all sitting outside.

她从房子里走出来，因为他们已经离开了

And she appears coming through the house because they've left

诺森伯兰郡的地中海风情夜晚。

the Mediterranean evening in Northumberland.

你好。

Hello.

有人在家吗？

Anyone at home?

那声音低沉而粗鲁。

The voice was deep and brusque.

加里不确定这声音来自男人还是女人。

Gary wasn't sure if it came from a man or a woman.

一个身影出现在通往阳台的落地窗前。

A figure appeared at the French window which gave on to the veranda.

是个女人，高大壮实但穿着裙子。

A woman, tall and heavy but wearing a skirt.

她打开了房间的灯，背光的身影被勾勒出来。

She'd switched on the light in the room and she was silhouetted in front of it.

你不该让前门就这么虚掩着，她用老师训斥蠢货般的抱怨语气继续说道。

You shouldn't leave your front door on the latch like that, She continued in the grumbling tone of a teacher talking to idiots.

即使在家，你也不知道谁会闯进来。

Even when you're home, you never know who might walk in.

他们都盯着她，仍处于震惊中。

They all stared at her, still shocked.

她走下台阶来到他们面前，直到停在餐桌旁。

She stepped down towards them until she'd reached the table.

烛光向上映照着她的脸庞。

The candle shone upwards onto her face.

她停顿片刻才再次开口。

She paused before she spoke again.

加里觉得这又是一个喜欢戏剧化表演的人。

Gary thought this was someone else who liked her drama.

探长薇拉·斯坦霍普，诺森布里亚警方，负责今晚你们发现的那位姑娘案件的资深调查官。

Inspector Vera Stanhope, Northumbria Police, senior investigating officer in the case of that lass you found tonight.

她拉出詹姆斯刚才坐过的椅子，小心翼翼地坐了上去。

She pulled out the chair where James had been sitting and lowered herself cautiously onto it.

那是一把木框结构的导演椅。

It was a director's chair with a wooden frame.

帆布面发出吱呀声。

The canvas creaked.

加里紧盯着，预料会听到布料撕裂的声音。

Gary watched closely, expecting a ripping, tearing sound.

或许她自己也这么预料着。

Perhaps she was expecting it too.

这是个随时能迅速脱身的女人。

This was a woman who'd be able to carry off fast.

但帆布承受住了，薇拉愉快地转向费莉西蒂继续说话。

But the canvas held, and Vera continued cheerfully, turning to Felicity.

我听说你认识她。

I understand you knew her.

谢谢你，安妮。

Thank you, Anne.

我很感兴趣。

I'm interested.

我有两个问题，都和薇拉有关。

There's two I've got two questions, both related to Vera.

我和薇拉很有共鸣。

I identify with Vera a lot.

曾经有人形容我在南方住过一阵子，还说我像薇拉。

I was once described I lived in the South for a while and described as Vera.

他们叫我薇拉是因为我有点胖，而且用Mac电脑。

They called me Vera because I'm a little fat and for a Mac.

他们叫你宠物吗？

Did they call you pet?

哦，他们喜欢

Oh, they like

听你说宠物。

to hear you say pet.

我们通过电视剧已经很了解薇拉了，我在想这是否会影响你现在写作的方式？布伦达·布莱森的形象会在你写作时浮现在脑海中吗？

So we've got to know Vera through the television series really well and I'm wondering whether that affects the way you now write about Has that got an influence that Brenda Blethens in the back of your mind as you're writing now?

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得写作时不会把布伦达看作薇拉，因为我的薇拉——布伦达总是很优雅，即使她穿着Mac外套和那顶

I think that I don't see Brenda while I'm writing Vera because my Vera is Brenda is always elegant, you know, even if she's dressed up in the Mac and the and the The

大帽子。

big hat.

还有奇怪的，对。

And the strange yeah.

那顶帽子和靴子。

The the hat and the boots.

但我在写对话时确实会听到她的声音，因为她太擅长那些机智的挖苦了。

But I do hear her voice when I'm writing dialogue sometimes because she's so good at those witty put downs.

有时我写出一句台词就会想，哦，我真希望编剧能保留这句，因为布伦说出来效果一定很棒。

And sometimes I'll write a line and think, oh, I do hope the script writer keeps that in because Bren's gonna be so good saying that.

而且我非常幸运，因为布伦达会读这些书。

And and I'm very lucky because Brenda reads the books.

所以每有新书出版，我们都会第一时间给她寄样书。

So as soon as there's a new book, we send her a proof.

她说读这些书就像回归原始素材。

And she talks about reading the books as going back to the source material.

这真是莫大的赞美。

So I what a compliment.

要知道，她确实会读这些书。

You know, she she does read the books.

你好安妮，我很有兴趣读到薇拉本人如果发现书中警察程序不正确会非常恼火。我想知道警察程序对你有多重要，以及你通过与薇拉的相处学到了多少，发展了多少。

Hello Anne, yeah I was very interested to read that Vera herself gets really ticked off if she picks up a book which is not correct police procedure And I just wondered how important police procedure has been to you and, you know, how much you've learned and developed through your sort of companionship with Vera.

我都是编的。

I make stuff up.

我写的是小说。

I write fiction.

所以我对警察程序不会太较真。

So I don't get too wound up about police procedure.

我有三位很好的朋友当顾问。

I have three very good friends who advise.

警察吗？

Police officers?

不是。

No.

不是警察。

Not police officers.

我认识詹姆斯·格里夫，他是一名法医病理学家，在设得兰群岛的书籍中以真实身份出现。

I've got James Grieve, who is a forensic pathologist, who appears as himself in the Shetland books.

所以他很擅长这个，你知道的，可以打电话找他。

So he's great on, you know, phone him up.

詹姆斯，我能不能用玻璃碎片杀人？

And James, could I kill somebody with a shard of glass?

当然可以，安妮。

Well, Anne, of course you could.

还有洛娜·道森教授，她是法医土壤科学家。

And then there's professor Lorna Dawson, who's a forensic soil scientist.

如果有人给她一只靴子，她会从上面刮下一点泥土，然后告诉你他们去过的大致一平方公里范围。

If somebody gives her a boot, she'll scrape a bit of soil from it and tell you within a square kilometer where they've been.

然后我本地的专家是海伦·佩珀，她曾是达勒姆郡警局的犯罪现场管理员，现在在提赛德教授警务课程，她也很棒。

And then the the local my local expert is Helen Pepper, who used to be a crime scene manager for County Durham Police and is now teaching on the policing course in Teeside, and she's great too.

您正在收听的是书友会节目。

You're listening to Book Club.

我是詹姆斯·诺克蒂。

This is James Nochtey.

本月我们在安妮克与获奖犯罪小说作家安妮·克利夫斯一起。

We're in Annek this month with the award winning crime writer, Anne Cleves.

书中有几段内容你谈到了写作。

There are a couple of passages in the book where you talk about writing.

其中有一段我们听到了对真实犯罪故事虚构化的讨论，以及对此的一些沮丧。

There's one where we hear about the fictionalization of true crime as it were and some frustration about that.

还有一段我猜你通过一个角色谈论创意写作课程之类的内容来放飞自我。

There is another where I suspect you let yourself go through a character talking about creative writing courses and all the rest of it.

你当时是在放飞自我吗？

Were you letting yourself go at that point?

我从未参加过创意写作课程，也从未教授过这类课程。

I've never done a creative writing course and I've never taught on one.

我认为我对阅读充满热情。

I think I am passionate about reading.

我们这里有一些很棒的人负责诺森伯兰郡的'阅读疗愈'计划，他们为有心理健康问题或慢性疼痛的人提供精神避风港，我们相信通过阅读可以获得解脱。

We've got some wonderful people here who run the Reading for Well-being scheme in Northumberland, so they provide an escape for people who've had mental health problems or chronic pain, and we believe that by reading there is an escape.

但我觉得不阅读就无法写作，所以我总是给有志成为作家的人推荐各种小说。

But I don't think you can write if you don't read, so I would just send aspiring writers away with a whole range of fiction.

我会给他们一张借书证，然后让他们自己去读。

I would give them a library card and tell them to get on with it.

这不仅仅是逃避现实，对吧？

And it's not just an escape, is it?

同时也是一种慰藉。

It's a reassurance as well.

这是一个锚点。

It's an anchor.

它是一个锚点，让人们看到与自己不同的世界。

It's an anchor and it opens people's eyes to a world that's is different from their own.

因此我认为阅读能增强我们的同理心。

So I think that reading makes us more empathetic.

它应该消解我们的偏见，因为我们能走进他人的内心世界。

It should dissolve our prejudices because we get inside the head of other people.

如果你确实遇到问题，比如正在经历艰难时期，脑子里充满各种奇怪想法时，暂时沉浸在他人的思维世界里会让人非常平静。

And if you do have problems, you know, if you're if you're going through a really tough time and you've got weird ideas rattling around in your head, it is so calming to be inside somebody else's head for a while.

我可以大谈特谈阅读的重要性以及保护图书馆的必要性，但这里可能不是合适的场合。

I could rant about reading and how we need to protect our libraries but this probably isn't the right place to do that.

Goose，关于这个项目，你是做什么的？

Goose, from the project here, what do you do?

你希望实现什么目标？

What are you trying to achieve?

我们将对阅读有共同兴趣的人们聚集在一起。

We bring people together who have a common interest in reading.

他们知道自己将与在场其他人有共同话题，而对话的起点通常是关于书籍——不一定是某本特定的书，而是泛指书籍和阅读本身。

They know that they've got something in common with the other people that are going to be there, and very often the starting point of the conversation is about books, not necessarily a particular book, but books in general and reading in general.

大多数转介来自社会处方师，也就是通过全科医生。

And most of the referrals come from social prescribers, so through GPs.

我记得曾与我们指导小组的一位全科医生交谈，他认为来诊所的患者更多是因为孤独而非疾病。

And I can remember speaking to one GP who was on our steering group to start and he reckoned that more patients came through his surgery because they were lonely rather than that they were ill.

而阅读为了身心健康将人们聚集在一起

And reading for well-being brings together

许多孤独的人。

a lot of lonely people.

你小时候读什么书？

What did you read as a child?

只要能找到的书我都读，不过我想特别提一位叫马尔科姆·萨维尔的悬疑作家，他写的东西有点像伊妮德·布莱顿，但精彩得多。

Read anything I could get my hands on, but there's I a suppose, a kind a, of mystery author called Malcolm Savile who wrote kind of Enid Blyton but much, much better.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以那些都是孩子们追随的悬疑故事。

So there were mysteries that that children were following.

我经常提起他。

And I I speak about him quite a lot.

艾莉·格里菲斯和米克·赫伦都是马尔科姆·萨福德的粉丝。

And Ellie Griffiths and Mick Herron were both Malcolm Saffold fans.

我们最后都成了犯罪小说作家，这个小团体。

We've all turned into crime writers, Little which is group.

很不错的团体。

Pretty good group.

你刚才提到阅读，当你脑子里思绪纷乱时，对你情绪健康的影响——当你写谋杀和黑暗题材时，这些纷乱的思绪会影响你吗？

You were saying that with reading, when you've got things rattling around in your head, for you, your emotional well-being, when things are rattling around in your head, does it ever affect you when you're writing about murders and the darkness?

不会，因为写作本身也是我的一种逃避方式。

No, because I think writing is my kind of escape too.

事实上，Vera是在我经历一段非常艰难的时期时被创造出来的。

And actually Vera was created when I was going through a really tough time.

我丈夫患有双相情感障碍但未被确诊，他经历了一次严重的精神病发作，实际上住进了精神病院。

My husband was bipolar but undiagnosed and he had a major psychotic episode and was actually in psychiatric hospital.

当他出院后，我们只是一直走啊走啊走啊走。

And when he came out, we just walked and walked and walked and walked.

当我走过诺森伯兰郡的乡村时，我记得那是秋天，到处都是蔷薇果和角状物，他看着鸟儿——我想就是在那时Vera出现在我脑海中。

And as I was walking through that Northumberland countryside, I can remember it was autumn, so there were hips and horns and we were he was looking at birds and and that's where where Vera came to me, I think.

为此我非常感激。

And so I'm very grateful for that.

后来他被确诊并逐渐好转，要知道这种病并非必须终身相伴。

And he was diagnosed and he did get better, know, it's not an illness that you have to live with forever.

但确实，正是那些散步让Vera有了生命，我想。

But yeah, it was those walks that brought Vera to life I think.

作为一个读者，我认为理解Vera的关键在于体会她对人们日常所处不同环境的深刻理解。

And the key to understanding Vera, seems to me as a reader, is to appreciate the depth of her understanding of the various places that people inhabit as, you know, normal individuals around us every day.

他们在心理上处于截然不同的位置。

They're in very different places psychologically.

是的。

Yeah.

我也这么认为。

I think so.

我想她懂得被轻视是什么滋味。

I think she knows what it is to be despised.

她在一个父亲忽视她、并不真正想要她的环境中长大。

She grew up with a father who neglected her, who didn't really want her.

他的妻子在她出生后不久去世了，也可能是因为我在书中的连续性不太好，甚至可能是在她出生时就去世了。

His wife died soon after she was born or because my continuity in the books isn't terribly good, maybe even while she was being born.

社会工作者来了，因为赫克托——她的父亲——是兰迪·金特里的次子，他们觉得，哦，他应该没问题。

And social workers came and because Hector, her dad, was the second son of Landy Gentry, they thought, oh, he must be alright.

又是阶级问题，然后就开车离开了。

Class again, and drove off.

所以我认为薇拉是在对挣扎者和局外人的这种理解中长大的。

And so I think Vera grew up with that sort of understanding of people who are struggling and who are outsiders.

她从未结婚，也从未有过家庭，她真正的家人是警察局，是她工作的团队。

And she's never married and she's never had a family, and her family really are the the police service, the team that she's working with.

薇拉有时似乎对自己的生活相当满意，但她会把人们推开。

Vera, at times, seems fairly contented with her life and she pushes people away.

你觉得她不想让人靠近，但她过得很艰难，在这本书中我们尤其能看到这一点。

She doesn't want them nearer, you think, But she has a tough time, and we see that particularly in this book.

她酗酒很严重，而且不想回家。

She's drinking quite heavily, and she doesn't want to go back to the house.

我们都希望薇拉能过得更好一点。

We all want a bit more for Vera.

我们是否还有希望她能以更好的方式走出这些低谷？

Have we any hope that she's gonna come out of these these depths in a in a better way.

嗯，八月份会出一本新书叫《黑暗妻子》，至少在那本书里她找到了一个朋友。

Well, there's a new book that comes out in August called The Dark Wives, and at least she finds a friend in that.

我认为他们之间没有恋爱关系，但她确实找到了一个盟友，他们一起为那些我可能也会为之奋斗的事情而战。

There's no romantic relationship, I think, but she does she finds an ally and they're fighting together for the things that I would probably want to fight for.

那太好了。

That's great.

真的很高兴

Really good to

听到。

hear.

我没想到你会回答那个问题。

I didn't think you would answer that.

我以为

I thought

我们会透露太多

we'd be giving too

信息了，这太棒了。

much away, that's brilliant.

谢谢。

Thanks.

嗨，安妮。

Hi, Anne.

我有个问题想问。

I just have a question.

其实是个有趣的问题，但它让我思考了很久。

It's a fun question really, but it got me thinking.

你曾经是《哥伦布》的粉丝吗？

Were you ever a fan of Columbo?

这是因为Mac电脑的缘故吗？

Is that because because of the Mac?

嗯，因为在书中你经常提到薇拉是个笨手笨脚的白痴，但她其实很能干，我记得哥伦布也是这样的形象，而且他也很像那种流浪老太太类型。就在我读不同书籍的时候，我在想安妮会不会是哥伦布的粉丝。

Well, was because within the books you talk a lot about Vera being a bumbling idiot but yet she's really got it all there and I remember Columbo came across like that and he was very much the bag lady type as well And just as I've been reading different books, thought, I wonder if Anne was a Colombo fan.

是啊。

Yeah.

我不认为我是，但当我创造她时，我真的很想塑造一个解药般的角色——因为即使在书中有女性侦探时，我想到的是莎拉·帕雷茨基（她是我心目中的大英雄）。

I don't think I was, but when I created her, I really wanted an antidote to because even even when there were women detectives In books, I'm thinking of Sarah Paretzky is a huge hero of mine.

我超爱她的作品。

I love her stuff.

但VI是个私家侦探。

But VI is a private eye.

苏·格拉夫顿笔下的女主角也是私家侦探。

Sue Grafton's female central character is a private eye.