你是否有资格进行肌肉耐力训练？——与斯科特·约翰斯顿对话

即使你没有为肌肉耐力训练付出过努力，也没有做好充分准备，你仍然可以从中受益。

It's possible to do muscular endurance training without having paid your dues and prepared yourself well for muscular endurance training, and you will still get benefit from it.

如果你的比赛中最具挑战性的部分是陡峭的上坡徒步，那我们最好开始做一些非常针对性的训练。

If the most demanding thing in your event is hiking steeply uphill, then we'd better start doing some very specific training.

如果你无法硬拉自己的体重，那么如果你变得更强壮一些，你可能会跑得更快。

If you can't deadlift your own body weight, you'd probably be a faster runner if you go a little bit stronger.

但在某个阶段，仅仅变得更强壮所带来的好处不会转化到跑步上。

But at some point, the gains of just being stronger are not gonna transfer to running.

大家好，欢迎收听《Born on the Trail Going Longer》的加更集。

Hello everyone, welcome to a bonus episode of Born on the Trail Going Longer.

我说这是加更集，因为这个月我发布了两集，而不是一集，两集都关于力量训练。

I say it's a bonus episode because this month I am publishing two episodes instead of one, both on the topic of strength training.

不过，两位嘉宾的角度略有不同。

However, both guests come from slightly different angles.

在上一集中，我和理查德·布莱格罗夫博士进行了对话，他是一位力量与体能训练研究员。

In the previous episode, I spoke with doctor doctor Richard Blagrove, who is a strength and conditioning researcher.

所以，当然，他更多是从理论角度来谈这个话题，尽管他也确实和耐力运动员有过大量合作。

So, of course, he comes to the topic more from the theoretical side, even though, of course, he worked extensively with endurance athletes.

今天，我们请到了再次做客的斯科特·约翰斯顿，他更多是从实践角度来谈这个话题。

Today, it's repeat guest Scott Johnston, who comes towards the topic more from a practical side.

斯科特本人曾是高水平运动员，现在也是多位精英超耐力运动员的教练。

Scott was a high level athlete himself and now is a coach to multiple elite ultra endurance athletes.

不过，斯科特与其他超耐力教练的不同之处在于，他非常重视训练中的力量部分。

However, what makes Scott different is that maybe compared to other ultra endurance coaches, he puts a real emphasis on the strength side of training.

我希望通过这两次讨论，能提供两个略有不同的视角，一个更偏理论，一个更偏实践，最终为大家，无论是运动员还是教练，找到一个清晰且可操作的中间路线或方向。

The goal, I hope, between these two discussions is that I can provide two slightly different perspectives, one the more theoretical side and one the more practical side, to hopefully land on a clear and actionable middle ground or path for all you athletes and coaches.

话不多说，斯科特，再次感谢你来做客。

Without further ado, Scott, thank you for joining me again.

你今天怎么样？

How are you doing today?

谢谢你邀请我，尼基。

Thanks for having me, Nikki.

很高兴能再次来。

It's a pleasure to be back.

很期待这次的对话。

Looking forward to this conversation.

在正式开始前，我先说个小提示。

So, a quick note before we dive in.

刚才提到过，斯科特是再次来做客的，他也参加过很多播客节目，聊力量和肌肉耐力的训练。

As we just mentioned, Scott is a repeat guest, and of course Scott has been on many podcasts talking about strength training and muscular endurance.

这期节目我想尝试着在他常讲的内容上继续延伸。

What I will try to do on this episode is build upon what we normally hear Scott talk about.

所以这期节目里，我们不会重复基本概念，也不会重新介绍他。

So in this episode, there won't be really any definitions or any reintroductions.

我们会尽量往更深层次去聊，比平时聊得要深入几个级别。

We will try to go kind of a few levels deeper than what we normally talk about.

如果你之前没听过斯科特的访谈，那我建议你先去听我们上次的对话，那也是我的第一期节目。

If you haven't heard Scott speak before, then I would of course recommend that you listen to our previous conversation, which was my first episode.

另一个有价值的资源是Evoke Endurance播客的第134期，那期在发布时是Evoke Endurance播客最新的一期，斯科特·约翰斯顿和他的一个同事在节目中重点讨论了力量训练和肌肉耐力。

Or another valuable resource is episode 134 of the Evoke Endurance podcast, which was at the time of publishing the most recent episode of the Evoke Endurance podcast, where Scott Johnston, along with one of his colleagues, spoke about strength training with a focus on muscular endurance.

那我们就开始聊聊你上次在播客里提到的一些内容吧。

So let's kind of start building or talking a bit about some of the stuff which you mentioned in the previous podcast.

当然，在UTMB之后，汤姆·埃文斯和露丝·克罗夫特分别赢得了男子和女子冠军，你因为肌肉耐力这个概念而变得有点出名。

Of course, after post UTMB, where Tom Evans and Ruth Croft both won were the the male male and and female female winners of UTMB, you became kind of popular for this muscular endurance concept.

而最引人注目的可能就是负重上坡训练了。

And probably the one sticking point was the weighted uphill workouts.

对吧？

Right?

就是这一项训练，据说所有运动员都穿着负重背心爬山，这就是他们在UTMB中获胜的关键。

So this one single workout, which where apparently all athletes were going up mountains wearing a weighted vest, and this was the difference maker at UTMB.

不过，当你听Evoke Endurance播客第134集时，就像我提到的，你的同事文斯·皮科夫斯基，希望我没念错名字，他明确说过，你必须先赢得资格才能做负重上坡训练。

However, when you listen to the Evoke Endurance podcast episode 134, as I mentioned, your colleague, Vince Pikowski, hopefully I have the name right, he literally said, you have to earn the right to do uphill pack work.

所以很明显，大家理解偏了。

So clearly people have caught this from the wrong side.

他们看到UTMB之后就开始做负重上坡训练了。

They saw UTMB and they started doing uphill pack work.

你说“要赢得做负重上坡训练的权利”是什么意思？Evoke是怎么理解的？

What do you mean or what does Evoke mean when you have to earn the right to do uphill pack work?

其实这个故事是从哪里开始的？

Where does the story start actually?

大家忽略了什么？

What are people missing?

这个问题问得好，这就要说到专项性的概念了。

That is a great question, and it comes down to the concept of specificity.

我觉得即使那些对运动中专项性的正式定义不太了解的人也能明白，你为某项运动所做的训练需要和这项运动有相似之处。

So I think people, even that don't have a great grasp of the formal definition of specificity in sport can understand that the training you do for your sport needs to look something like your sport.

换句话说，对于超跑选手来说，游泳是一项很好的锻炼，也是一项很棒的运动，但它对越野跑来说并不是很专项。

In other words, ultra runners, swimming is a great exercise and it's a wonderful sport, but it's not very specific to trail running.

因此，它对你在越野跑中的帮助不会太大。

And as a consequence, it's not going to do very much to help you in your trail running.

这是个比较极端的例子，但我用来说明专一性这个概念。

That's a fairly extreme case, but I'm using it to make this example about specificity.

所以经常发生的情况是，人们对专一性的理解有偏差。

And so what often happens is that people, they interpret the concept of specificity wrong.

在我看来，他们把专一性做得太过了。

In my opinion, they overdo specificity.

他们会觉得，好吧，如果我拿一个极端专一性的例子来说，就是基普乔格每次出门训练，都应该直接跑一个马拉松，因为那是他备战的比赛。

They think that, Okay, if my sport I'm going to use an example of an extreme case of specificity would be, Okay, every time Iliad Kipchoge goes out the door, he should run a marathon because that's the event he's training for.

但显然，他不可能那样练。

Well, obviously, he doesn't train that way.

同理，

Then it would be the same thing.

好吧，尤塞恩·博尔特虽然已经退役了，但每次他去田径场，就应该全力跑一个一百米。

Okay, every time Usain Bolt he's retired, but every time Usain Bolt would go to the track, he should run 100 meters as fast as he possibly can.

但很明显，那样就是把专一性推到极致了。

But obviously, that would be taking specificity to his extreme.

所以我觉得，人们在登山或者超长距离越野跑这类运动中需要理解的是，背着重物爬山确实非常符合运动特点，因为比赛本身就是那样，尤其是在最艰苦的时候。

And so what I think people need to understand in a sport like whether it's mountaineering or ultra running is, yes, hiking uphill, often with a pack on your back is very specific to the sport because that's what the sport looks like, especially in its most demanding moments.

你会花最多的时间在上坡上。

You're going to spend the most time going uphill.

你会花最多的体力在上坡上。

You're going to spend the most energy going uphill.

而且你可能会在上坡时感到最疲劳。

And you're going to experience the most fatigue probably going uphill.

那为什么不干脆都这么训练呢？

And so why don't we just do all of our training that way?

我会再回头讲负重上坡训练这个概念。

And I'm going to come back around to the concept, to the idea of weighted uphill training.

但先想想不负重的上坡训练。

But just think about unweighted uphill training for a moment.

那会和你比赛时的需求非常匹配。

And that would be very specific to your event.

但如果把所有训练都按同一种方式来做，那就是个错误了。因为我们人类要应对的是一个相当复杂的赛事，

But that would be a mistake to train, to do all of your training that same way because we humans, and we're training for a fairly complex event,

我们

we are

是非常复杂的生物体，需要接受多种不同的刺激，才能对这些刺激产生适应。

incredibly complex creatures by organisms that need a lot of different kinds of stimuli applied to us in order to adapt to those stimuli.

如果我们总是只给身体施加同样的刺激，最终我们会达到基因层面所能允许的最大适应极限。这取决于我们的基因、DNA、年龄以及过往的训练经历等等。

If we just always keep putting the same stimulus into the system, eventually we're going to reach the maximum adaptations, probably genetically that are genetically possible for us, given our genetics, our DNA, our age, our training history, that sort of thing.

所以，当我用负重上坡训练来补充日常训练时，我们主要想提升主要发力肌群和肌肉群的抗疲劳能力。

So when I supplement training with uphill weighted training, what we're trying to do is to increase the fatigue resistance of the main propelling muscles, muscle groups.

具体做法就是增加这些肌肉需要对抗的阻力。

And the way we do that is by increasing the resistance that those muscles have to work against.

你可以通过多种方式来实现这一点。

You can do this in many different ways.

比如

It could be

在健身房里的情况。

a done gym situation.

你也可以在楼梯机上徒步。

You could just hike on a stair machine.

你可以在小区里拖轮胎。

You could drag a tire around your neighborhood.

有很多方法可以给主要推进肌肉增加阻力。

There's a lot of ways to add resistance to those main propelling muscles.

所以即使只是上坡徒步。

So even just hiking uphill.

对一些人来说，上坡已经增加了足够的阻力，实际上对每个人都是如此，这会增加肌肉的募集。

For some people, there's enough added resistance to uphill, well, even for everyone actually, that it increases the muscle mass recruitment.

仅仅通过上坡，你就能获得我们所说的肌肉耐力训练效果。

You're going to get what we would call a muscular endurance training effect just by going uphill.

对于需要更大刺激的高水平运动员，一种改进刺激的方法是增加一些阻力，比如在背包里加些重量之类的。

Now for higher level athletes for whom they need a bigger stimulus, one way of improving that stimulus is to add some resistance by adding some weight to a backpack or something like that.

所以Vince评论说你需要赢得这个权利，意思是这是我们作为常规训练的补充来做的。

So what Vince was commenting about when he says you need to earn the right is this is something that we do as a supplement to our regular training.

它不会占据主导地位。

It doesn't dominate.

这不是我们做的唯一训练类型。

It's not the only type of training we do.

我觉得人们误解这一点是个错误。

And I think it's a mistake for people to interpret.

你可能最近看到了，为硬石比赛做的准备，那场比赛对Tom来说不太顺利，因为他有医疗问题，但他贴了一些自己在家里的陡坡跑步机上做这种训练的照片。

And you might have seen that recently, preparation for the hard rock race, which did not go well for Tom because he had a medical problem, but had posted some pictures of himself doing some of this type of training on a steep treadmill at his home.

因为他是个很受欢迎的人，很多人说，Tom Evans做什么都行。

And because he's a very popular guy, there was a lot of people saying, well, Tom Evans does whatever.

他训练中有很大比例都是这么做的。

Some massive percentage of his training is done this way.

其实根本不是这样。

Well, it's just not true.

我可以告诉你，因为我制定汤姆的训练计划，所以他的这种训练方式占比不到10%。

I I can tell you that knowing since I write Tom's programming, probably less than 10% of his training is done in this way.

所以虽然这是一个重要的部分，但它并不是我们训练汤姆的主要方式。

So while it is an important component, it's not the primary means we're using for training, Tom.

所以我觉得，首先要明白这一点，这很重要。

And so I think, first of all, that's important to understand.

这种训练很容易，不，它非常容易练过头。

It's pretty easy, not pretty, it's very easy to overdo this type of training.

如果练得过猛，因为肌肉负荷太高，你会同时感受到多种疲劳。

If you overdo, because the muscular loading is so high, you're going to get a combination of fatigue.

有些是神经性的，有些是代谢性的，但都非常强烈。

Some of it's neurologic and some of it's metabolic fatigue, but it's quite extreme.

当我在给运动员安排或解释训练时，不管是上坡负重肌肉耐力还是几乎任何形式的肌肉耐力训练，我常用的一个判断标准是：如果你看不到实际进步，比如说你每周只做一次训练。

If a person One of the gauges I use with folks when I'm prescribing or explaining whether it's uphill weighted muscular endurance or almost any form of muscular endurance training is if you don't see actual progress from let's say you're doing one workout a week.

一次大概一个小时左右，这对这类型训练来说是很典型的。

It's an hour long or something like that, which that would be fairly typical for this kind of training.

如果你每周都看不到进步，那并不是训练没效果。

If you're not seeing progress from week to week, it's not because the training is not working.

而是因为你在两次训练之间没有恢复好。

It's because you're not recovering between sessions.

我一直在用这种训练方式，就是肌肉耐力训练，而且有很多方法可以提升肌肉耐力，你之前的嘉宾可能也聊过一些其他的方式。

I've been using this type of training, muscular endurance, and there's a lot of ways to build muscular endurance, as your previous guests probably talked a bit about other ways of building muscular endurance.

这在几乎所有运动的力量训练中都是很常见的组成部分。

It's a well known component of strength training in almost every sport.

在过去的二十五年甚至三十多年里，我几乎试过所有类型的肌肉耐力训练。

And I have used probably almost every type of muscular endurance training over the past twenty five plus years thirty plus years, actually.

我接触过成千上万的运动员，到目前为止，我还没见过这种训练不产生积极效果的。

And I have yet to see it with literally thousands of athletes, I have yet to see it not produce positive results.

如果效果不好，那几乎完全是因为人们练得太过了。

Now, if it doesn't produce good results, it's probably almost entirely due to the fact people are overdoing it.

他们练得太多、太频繁、强度太大，诸如此类。

They're doing too much, too often, too hard, that sort of thing.

所以他们需要更多的恢复时间。

So they need more recovery.

所以我想先铺垫一下，接下来要讲的内容，就是关于你需要赢得这个权利的概念。

So I'm trying to give a little context here for what I want to talk about next, this concept of you need to earn the right.

我觉得与其说你需要赢得这个权利，不如说你应当赢得这个权利。

I guess it's a little instead of you need to earn the right, you should earn the right.

没有打好基础，或者说没有充分准备好，就去做耐力训练，这是有可能的。

It's possible to do muscular endurance training without having, let's call it, paid your dues, so to speak, and prepared yourself well for muscular endurance training.

而且你依然会从中获益。

And you will still get benefit from it.

如果有人来找我说，好吧，我有个大活动。

If a person came to me, Okay, I have a big event.

我要去爬山。

I'm climbing a mountain.

我要参加越野跑。

I'm running a trail race.

而且现在是八周后。

And it's eight weeks from now.

我会说，好的，我不在乎你有多强壮。

I would say, Okay, I don't care how strong you are.

我也不在乎你的有氧能力怎么样。

I don't care what your aerobic capacity is like.

我们今天就得开始引入肌肉耐力训练，因为这对你会有很大的好处。

We have to start introducing muscular endurance training today because that's going to pay big benefits to you.

在我们有限的时间里，这可能是我们能做的最有效的训练之一。

In the short amount of time we have, that's probably going to be some of the most effective training we can do.

如果你没有强大的有氧能力，也不够强壮，你能得到最好的结果吗？

Are you going to get the best results if you don't have a big aerobic capacity and you're not very strong?

不，你不能。

No, you're not.

但鉴于你给我的情况，也就是比赛在八周后，那我们就只能直接进行这种训练了。

But given the compromise that you've presented me with, which is, hey, my race is in eight weeks, then we have to just go right to this type of training.

所以文斯真正想说的是，在一个人能期望从这种肌肉耐力训练中获得最大收益之前，需要先打好基础，无论是负重上坡、健身房循环训练还是其他类似的训练。

So what Vince was really implying is there's a foundation that needs to be laid before a person can expect to maximize the benefits that will come from this type of muscular endurance training, from any type of muscular endurance training, whether it's weighted uphill or gym circuit or something like that.

而这个基础应该包括两个主要部分。

And what that foundation should be, there's two principal components that need to make up that foundation.

第一个是有氧能力。

The first is aerobic capacity.

这对任何耐力运动都至关重要，但如果你想长期发展肌肉耐力训练，这一点尤其重要。

That's vital for any endurance sport, but it's really important if you want to sustain long term development of muscular endurance training.

这意味着这属于现在常说的，根据心率表划分的二区训练。

And that means this would fit into the category that is now commonly referred to as Zone two type training from using a heart rate scale.

另一个非常重要的部分是力量，也就是在相同动作中的力量。

And then the other component that's also very important is strength, strength in those same movements.

举个例子，比如登山或超长跑，一个简单的相关练习就是陡坡徒步。

So let's say let me give you just a very simple exercise of something that relates to whether it's mountaineering or ultra running would be hiking steeply uphill.

你可以在高楼里爬消防楼梯，或者用楼梯机，甚至是在户外陡坡上模拟这种训练。

And maybe you're going to simulate that in a tall building with you're going up the fire stairs or on a stair master, stair machine, or even on a steep gradient trail outside.

你需要能够迈步上坡，并抬起自己的身体重量。

And you need to be able to step uphill and raise your body weight.

我们可以在健身房里和你做一个非常简单的测试。

And we could do a very simple test in a gym with you.

比如说，我们放一个30厘米的台阶在你面前，让你只用自重踩上去。

And let's say we put a 30 centimeter step in front of you, and we ask you to step up onto that just with your body weight.

如果这对你来说很吃力，那你还没准备好做肌肉耐力训练，因为肌肉耐力训练需要你重复几百次踩上这个30厘米的箱子。

And if that was a struggle for you, then you're not prepared to do muscular endurance training because muscular endurance training is going to require hundreds of repetitions of stepping up 30 centimeters onto this box.

这虽然是个比较极端的例子，但我想说的是，如果你连一次都做不了，那你怎么能做几百次同样的动作呢？

So is a rather extreme case, but I'm trying to make the point is if you're not strong enough to do one repetition, how are you going to do hundreds of repetitions of this same movement?

所以在这种情况下，我们有两个选择。

So we have two choices in that case.

再说，如果你离比赛还有八周，你来找我，我发现你连30厘米的箱子都踩不好，我会说，好吧，那我们只能用15厘米的箱子了。

Again, if you were eight weeks out from your race and you came to me and I found that you can't really even step up on a 30 centimeter box very effectively, I'd say, Okay, well then we're going to have to use a 15 centimeter box.

这样对你来说会更容易一些。

There's something that's easier for you to do.

但那样会影响到肌肉耐力训练的效果，因为你缺乏基础力量。

But that's going to compromise the results we're going to get from the muscular endurance training because you're lacking basic strength.

所以，如果你来找我，说‘嘿，我在为十二个月后的比赛做准备’，而我发现你有同样的问题，无法用自身体重踏上30厘米的箱子，我会说，‘好，我们先从基础力量开始。’

So if instead you came to me and said, Hey, I'm preparing for this race and it's twelve months from now, and I found out you had the same problem and you couldn't step up onto a box with your body weight with about 30 centimeters with just your body weight, I'd say, Okay, we're going to start with basic strength.

这可能包括一些基础举重动作，比如硬拉或深蹲，但也可能只是负重踏上箱子，直到你能轻松踏上30厘米的箱子，也许负重是你体重的20%，你能轻松踏上去，那我就会说，‘很好。’

And that could involve very basic lifts like a deadlift or a squat, but it could also just involve stepping up on that box with added weight until you can comfortably step up onto 30 centimeters with and maybe it's added 20% to your body weight and you can easily step up onto this box, then I would say, great.

做这些运动并不需要你成为肌肉男。

Now you don't need to be a muscle man to perform these sports.

并不是说你需要能硬拉三倍体重，或者扛着体重踏上箱子。

It's not like you need to be able to deadlift three times your body weight or step up onto this box with your body weight on your shoulders.

是的，能做到那样的人，力量是过剩的。

Yes, a person who can do that, they excess strength.

如果你来找我，我看到你能用50%的体重踏上45厘米的箱子，我会说，‘好，我们不需要做任何力量训练。’

If you came to me and I saw that, oh, you can step up onto a 45 centimeter box with 50% of your body weight, I'd say, okay, we don't need to do any strength work.

我们直接进入肌肉耐力训练，因为对于你训练的项目来说，你已经足够强壮了。

We're just going straight to muscular endurance because you're plenty strong enough for the event you're training for.

所以这能帮我们理解一下，当我们说你需要赢得进行这种训练的权利时，我们到底是什么意思。

So is that helping put some context on this idea of what we mean when we say you need to earn the right to perform this type of training.

当然。

Absolutely.

所以如果我理解正确的话，这基于两个不是假设，而是两个因素。

So if I understood correctly, it is based on two kind of not assumptions, but two kind of factors.

一个是你训练的有氧方面，另一个是基础力量水平，比如能够踩上30厘米的箱子，可能多次，负重约为你体重的一半。

It's the aerobic side of your training and a basic level of strength, kind of being able to step on a 30 centimeter box, maybe multiple times with half of your body weight, roughly.

然后在此基础上你可以继续提升。

And then from there you can build on top of that.

你之前提到，如果有人来找你，他们距离比赛还有八周，你基本上会让他们进行肌肉耐力训练或某种肌肉耐力训练，因为你认为那是他们在这么短时间内能获得的最有效刺激或最大收益。

You mentioned at a point that if someone comes to you and they have eight weeks to their race, you essentially go to a variant of muscular endurance or some sort of muscular endurance because you think that that is the most kind of potent stimulus or the biggest gain they could get in that short amount of time.

这是因为这些运动员通常根本没有做过力量训练吗？

Is that because typically these athletes haven't done strength at all?

除了经验之外，你是怎么评估那会是最大的收益的？

Like, how do you assess that that is the biggest gain apart from experience, of course?

那这种经验大概是基于什么呢？

Like what is that experience based on maybe?

你平时都遇到过哪些案例，让你发现通常这样做效果最好？

What are the anecdotes which you learned over time which showed you that is the best move typically?

首先，这又回到了我之前提到的特异性原则。

Well, first of all, it relates back to what I was saying earlier about specificity.

如果你的比赛项目里最耗体力的部分是陡峭的上坡徒步，那我们最好就开始进行非常针对性的训练。

You know, if if the most demanding thing in your event is hiking steeply uphill, then we we better start doing some very specific training.

如果我有更长的时间跟你一起训练，比如我之前提到的那个十二个月的例子，我们会先打好力量基础，然后再过渡到建立肌肉耐力基础。

And if if I had a longer runway with you, let's say, that twelve month example I explained, well, we would lay a foundation of strength first, and then we would segue into or build a muscular endurance base as well.

不过，不管我们只有八周还是八个月来训练你，肌肉耐力基础都是必不可少的。

But the muscular endurance base will be in there regardless of whether we have eight weeks or eight months to train you.

八周的问题在于，我们没有时间去打力量基础。

The problem with eight weeks is we don't have time to do a strength base.

所以我们只能根据你当天展现出的力量水平来调整，就像我们必须以你最初的心肺能力为基础一样。

So we have to go with whatever strength you're showing up with on that day, just like we have to go with whatever your aerobic capacity is at the beginning of that.

因为要提升力量和心肺功能，我们得花上好几个月甚至好几年才能达到高水平。

Because to build strength and to build aerobic capacity, we'd be looking at months and months and years and years to build those to a high level.

不过，力量方面，我们不需要你变成施瓦辛格那样才能参加这类比赛。

Now, strength, we don't need to have again, we don't need to have you be Arnold Schwarzenegger to compete in these types of events.

但即便如此，要练出足够的力量还是需要几个月的时间，比如说，如果你连这个30厘米高的箱子都踩不上去的话。

But still, it's going to take months to develop the kind of strength that will be sufficient, let's say, if you can't step up on this 30 centimeter box.

所以这就是理论上的部分。

So that's the theoretical side.

这就是我选择这个方法的背景原因。

That's the background of it, like why I choose this.

但从经验上来说，我亲眼见过这些效果。

But from an experiential side, I've just seen this.

我自己就试过很多次了。

I've administered it to myself dozens of times.

我亲自和几百个运动员合作过，用这个方法，都看到了这样的结果。

I have worked personally with hundreds of athletes doing this and seeing these results.

而且，这又回到了经验层面，说‘哦，看，这真的很有效’，这来自于对专项性理论的理解，就是说，好吧，在赛前训练计划的某个阶段，你最好开始做那些和比赛中最具挑战性的部分相似的训练。

And again, it comes down but that experiential side of saying, oh, look, this works really well comes from understanding the theory of specificity and saying, Okay, at some point during a training progression leading into an event, you better start doing training that looks like the most demanding aspects of your event.

在我们的情况下，一种方法就是增加负重上坡训练，比如说，对于超马跑者或登山者来说。

And in our case, one way to do that is adding this weighted uphill, let's say, for an ultra runner or a mountaineer.

对于登山来说，我觉得大多数人都能直观理解。

For mountaineering, I think it should be pretty intuitive to most people.

是的，登山基本上就是背着沉重的背包，非常缓慢地爬陡坡。

Yes, mountaineering is essentially carrying a heavy pack very slowly up a steep hill.

所以我们的训练最好也做成这样。

So we better make your training look like that.

结果发现，当我开始训练很多登山者和登山爱好者时，我想，这到底是怎么回事？

And it turns out, when I started coming from training a lot of alpinists and mountaineers, I thought, what the heck?

为什么不试试在跑者身上用这个方法，看看效果如何呢？

Why don't we try this with runners and see what happens?

然后我们就这么做了。

And we did it.

结果你猜怎么着，效果出奇地好。

And lo and behold, saw fantastic results.

大家都说，哇，现在比赛时腿再也不容易累了。

People would say, wow, my legs just don't get tired in these races anymore.

我感觉那些肌肉的耐力强多了。

I'm feeling much more fatigue resistance in those muscles.

所以这其实是把我在其他领域验证过的方法搬了过来。

So it was taking something I had seen work in other areas.

我还想补充一点，就像我之前说的，我猜你的那位嘉宾，虽然我不认识他，但听起来非常专业。

And I'm going to also add in, as I said earlier and I would assume, especially your guest sounds like he was I don't know him, but it sounds very knowledgeable.

这种肌肉耐力训练的概念在几乎所有运动项目中都已经存在了几十年。

This concept of muscular endurance training has been around for decades and decades in almost every sport.

比如游泳，五十年来，游泳运动员一直习惯用附加阻力来训练。

And if you look at swimming, for example, it's been common for fifty years for swimmers to swim with added resistance.

他们会在两腿之间夹一个浮板来增加阻力，有时还会用其他设备。

They'll put a pull buoy between their legs to create extra drag, in some cases, even other devices.

划船和赛艇的人经常在船底加阻力装置，来增加额外的阻力。

Paddlers and rowers will often put drag devices on the bottoms of the boats to create added resistance.

这样一来，他们就能做非常贴近专项运动的动作。

That way, they're able to do a very sport specific movement.

不然的话，游泳运动员在泳池里，你怎么给他们加阻力？

Otherwise, how do you add resistance to a swimmer when they're in the pool?

总不能给他们穿上负重背心吧。

You can't put a weight vest on them.

那根本行不通。

That's not going to work.

所以自行车运动里，这种做法早就有了。

So in cycling, this has been around for a long time.

就是把自行车挂到更大的齿轮上，用更慢的踏频去蹬。

Just put the bicycle in a bigger gear and push against a bigger gear at a slower RPM.

这样练的就是肌肉耐力。

You're developing muscular endurance.

所以这些概念在一般体育运动中并不新鲜。

So these concepts are not new in sports in general.

我觉得它们新就新在超级马拉松这个领域。

Where they're new is in this ultra running world, I think.

我相信这是因为人们认为，如果我的比赛是长距离跑步，那我就只需要一直出去跑长距离。

And I believe it's because people have viewed, Okay, if my event is running long distance, then I just need to go out and run a long distance all the time.

而我一直说的是，好吧，我们为什么不从中拿出一小部分，比如总训练量的10%或更少，加上阻力，看看会发生什么。

And what I've been saying is, Okay, why don't we take some of those, a small percentage, 10% or less of the total training volume, and add resistance to it and see what happens.

当我们这样做时，我们看到了巨大的成果。

And when we do that, we see tremendous results.

在书中，大约在最后三分之一或四分之一的部分，就在你开始给出如何安排年度训练计划的概念之前，你把运动员分为第一类和第二类。

In the book, roughly in the last third or last quarter, just before you start giving this concept of how to structure your year closer to a training plan, so to speak, you divide athletes in category one and category two.

第二类可能更多是初级运动员。

And category two are maybe more of the beginner athletes.

他们要么是18岁，要么在之前的一年里跑步或锻炼时间少于400小时，要么他们还没有跑过那一年要参加的比赛。

So they're either 18 or they have run or exercised for less than four hundred hours in the previous year, or they haven't run the event that they're going to compete in that year.

要成为第二类运动员，你必须满足这三个条件。

For you to be category two, you have to satisfy all those three criteria.

根据你所说的，这些对第一类和第二类运动员都同样适用吗？

From all of what you said, does it apply equally to category one and category two?

你会给第一类运动员不同的建议吗？

Would you give a different prescription, so to speak, to a category one athlete?

因为根据我的经验，我大多数朋友，那些业余运动员，还要工作什么的，他们大多数一年都达不到四百小时。

Because in my experience, most of my friends, the amateur athletes who work and stuff, most of them don't hit that four hundred hours a year.

我重新算了一下，如果全年都要练的话，大概每周需要七点五个小时。

I have restated around roughly seven and a half hours per week if you had to do it year round.

我还注意到，你给大型赛事前的巅峰周建议是最低推荐，而且总是比别人给的要高很多。

And I also noticed that you give a minimum recommendation of peak weeks before a big event, and they are always significantly higher than what I see other people give.

问题是，你会给第一类和第二类运动员类似的建议和训练方法吗，还是会有很大的不同？

The question is, would you give a similar prescription, a similar approach for the category one and category two athletes, or is there a big difference there?

这是个好问题，这真的取决于个人。

That's a great question, and it really comes down to the individual.

我来解释一下我会如何稍微区别对待并安排训练。

I'll explain how I would differentiate and prescribe training slightly differently.

假设我们把讨论限定在越野跑和山地跑上。

So let's say you let's let's limit our discussion to trail running, mountain running.

假设就像你一开始说的，你每周的训练时间上限是六到七小时。

And let's say you're in this as you were saying in the very beginning, maybe six to seven hours a week of training is where you top out.

你会发现限制你的因素是——如果你完成那一周，或者完成每周的长距离跑，比如三个小时，可能你在这条路线上累计爬升了一千米，然后你的腿非常酸痛，即使你保持在了一区和二区，可能上坡时你还走了，等等，那么你从这些基础的二区训练中获得了肌肉耐力的训练效果。

And you're finding that the limiter to your like, you're getting if you if you finish that week or you finish your your long run for the week and it's three hours and you maybe you've done a thousand meters vertical in that run and your legs are hammered, your legs are really tired, even though you kept it in zone one and zone two, maybe you're walking the hills, all that, then you're getting a muscular endurance training effect from this basic zone two work.

在这种情况下，你可以在此基础上增加肌肉耐力训练。

And in that case, you could add muscular endurance training on top of it.

问题在于，如果你已经获得了——还记得我之前说过，这类训练可能只占总训练量的10%，即使是精英运动员也是如此。

The problem with it is if you already are getting a remember earlier I talked about how, hey, maybe we're talking 10% of the total training volume even for an elite athlete of this type of training.

那么，假设你那个三小时跑是周末的大强度训练，之后两三天你的腿仍然很累。

Well, that let's say your your three hour run is your big run on the weekends, and for two or three days afterwards, your legs are still tired.

那就说明腿部得到了肌肉耐力的训练效果。

Well, that means the legs were getting a muscular endurance training effect.

如果你接着在专门的肌肉耐力训练之上再叠加一次肌肉耐力训练，那你就是在做我之前告诉过你不要做的事，也就是在两次肌肉耐力训练之间没有充分恢复。

And if you were then to try to fit a muscular endurance workout on top of a specific muscular endurance workout, you would be doing the thing I told you not to do, which is recovering enough between those muscular endurance sessions.

长跑的好处是它同时也在提升你的有氧能力，而这些肌肉耐力训练因为时间相对较短，是没法提升有氧能力的。

And the benefit of the long run is you're also building aerobic capacity, which you're not going to build aerobic capacity with these muscular endurance workouts because they're relatively short.

它们的强度相对较高。

They're relatively intense.

所以，如果一个人觉得自己的训练瓶颈是每周训练中出现的局部肌肉疲劳，那么他们可能不需要增加肌肉耐力训练，除非是在休赛期刚开始的时候。

And so if a person feels that personal limitation in their training is local muscular fatigue during the week, then they probably they don't need to add muscular endurance training unless it's really early in the off season.

所以我觉得，不管每周训练多少小时，每个人都能从肌肉耐力训练中受益。

So I think everybody can benefit from muscular endurance training regardless of the number of hours they're doing.

但如果你想要积累高跑量，而你的腿已经很累了，那你就没有余力再叠加肌肉耐力训练，否则就有过度训练、疲劳、停滞不前的风险，这些都是我们想避免的。

But if you're trying to accumulate a high volume of running and your legs are getting tired, then you won't have the capacity to add muscular endurance training on top of that without risking overtraining, fatigue, stagnation, all these things we want to avoid.

所以我的回答是，每个人都需要自己判断：腿部是不是你的主要瓶颈之一？

So my answer would be each individual needs to determine, are the legs one of the main limiters for you?

就像我刚才说的，如果我有一个长达数月的训练周期，那么即使是那样的运动员，我也建议他们说，好吧。

Now, as I just was saying, if I had a long training block in many, many months, then I think even that athlete could be would be advised to say, okay.

我现在会安排一个低跑量的训练阶段，不再做那种三小时长距离、累计爬升一千米、让双腿极度疲惫的跑步。我会把每次跑步控制在少于一小时，选择坡度更平缓的地形，但每周还是会加入一次肌肉耐力训练。

I'm gonna have a lower volume training block right now, and I'm not going to do these three hour long runs with 1,000 meters of vertical that make my legs really tired, I'm going to keep everything down by an hour of running and on more moderate terrain, but I'm going to include one muscular endurance workout in each week.

我的观点是，当这位运动员——我也见过这种情况——之后增加跑量时，他们的腿部会更具韧性，能够更好地承受更高的跑量，从而从中受益。

What I would say is then when that athlete, and I've seen this happen, when that athlete then moves to a higher volume of running, their legs are going to be more resilient And they're going to be able to handle that higher volume of running better, which means they're going to benefit.

当然，这前提是他们有时间去加练。

Now this is assuming they have the time to add.

正如你所说，很多人因为生活原因，每周最多只能撑六到七小时的训练。

As you said, many people they're going to max out at six or seven hours a week just because of their life.

但如果一个人每周能跑七到十二个小时，并且已经打下了肌肉耐力的基础，那么在高强度的训练阶段，他们会更不容易疲劳——虽然我不太喜欢用‘耐用’这个词，但意思就是他们的抗疲劳能力会更强，这样理解对吗？

But if a person had the capacity to run seven, ten, twelve hours a week and they had laid a foundation of muscular endurance training, then they're going to be more don't hate to use the word durable but they're going to be more fatigue resistant in that high volume block, if that makes sense.

所以这会让高强度的训练阶段对他们更有效，因为他们能在那些长时间的训练课之间恢复得更快。

So it'll make the high volume block more effective for them because they'll be able to recover faster between those longer sessions for them.

所以说，这件事并不是非黑即白的，我想表达的就是这个意思。

So it's not black and white is what I guess I'm saying here.

是的。

Yeah.

我想对很多人来说，问题肯定还在，对吧？

And I guess that is where, for a lot of people, the questions, of course, remain, right?

因为咱们先有了基础，对吧？这个基础一边是最大摄氧量，另一边嘛……我不太确定最大摄氧量有没有上限，怎么才算练够了呢？但就像你刚才说的，如果你的腿部力量限制了最大摄氧量的发挥，那可能就是你该开始考虑力量训练或者肌肉耐力训练的时候了。

Because, of course, think we had our foundation, right, which was made of aerobic capacity on one side and kind of that I don't know if that tops out, how do you know that you get enough aerobic capacity, but kind of what we know or what you just said is that if in your aerobic capacity your legs are the limiter, then maybe that is the point where you start looking at strength training or muscular endurance training.

因为基础的另一方面是整体力量，我们之前聊过那种踩着三十厘米高的台阶、负重一半体重的动作之类的。

Because then the other piece of foundation is this general strength, which we kind of covered with the step on a or go up on a step, 30 centimeters with half your body weight and stuff like that.

如果这两项你都达标了，那肌肉耐力训练就是个不错的干预手段，或者说你应该去了解一下。

If you kind of get a green check mark on both of those, then probably muscular endurance will be a good intervention or something that you should look into.

对。

Yes.

而且我觉得，既然提到了UTMB（环勃朗峰超级越野赛）和这种肌肉耐力的概念，我不想用‘推广’这个词，因为我并不是在提倡这种训练方式。

And I think that one of the since UTMB and this whole idea of muscular endurance, I don't want to use the word promoting because I'm not trying to promote this way of training.

有人问我，你平时是怎么带运动员的？

People ask me, What do you do with your athletes?

我就说，好吧，我是这么做的。

I'm saying, Okay, this is what I do.

而且我觉得这个方法真的非常好用。

And I think it works really well.

但如果你不想这么做，或者有其他想法，那也没关系。

But if you don't want to do it or you have other ideas, fine.

尽管去做吧。

Go do it.

但我对大家的建议是，与其怀疑这个想法，不如先尝试一下，看看它对你适不适用。

But what I would recommend to people is, rather than be skeptical of this idea, is try it and then see if it works for you.

而且，我再说一遍，在用了这种训练三十年的时间里，我第一次用是在1992年，效果简直让我大开眼界。

And, again, as I said, in thirty years of using this type of training I mean, the first time I first time I used this training was in 1992, And it blew my mind what it did.

那时我其实在指导一个备战1994年奥运会的运动员。

Now, was actually coaching a guy who was preparing for the nineteen ninety four Olympics.

现在记不清了。

I can't remember now.

总之，这个想法是从一位俄罗斯速度滑冰教练那里偷学来的。

Anyway, stole and this idea from a Russian speed skating coach.

我就想，不如我们试试看吧。

And I thought, why don't let's give this a try.

那个结果，我和他都不敢相信。

And we couldn't neither he nor I could believe the results.

简直像，天哪，我们看到的表现提升太惊人了。

It was like, holy cow, this is amazing what we're seeing here in terms of performance improvement.

要知道，我们俩当时都是非常健壮的运动员。

Now, we were both very fit athletes.

所以我说的不是那种连30厘米高的箱子都跨不上去，或者有氧能力不行的人。

So I wasn't talking about somebody who couldn't step up on a 30 centimeter box or who didn't have a good aerobic capacity.

所以你得考虑这一点。

So you have to take that into consideration.

但那时候，从1992年我开始用这个方法，也许其实是91年。

But in that time, since 1992, when I started maybe it was 'ninety one.

我觉得应该是91年，为了92年奥运会。

I think it was 'ninety one for the 'ninety two Olympics.

对。

Yeah.

所以从那时起，我从未见过这种方法不产生让人惊叹的结果。

So ever since then, I have never seen this not produce results that people would go, wow, this is incredible.

即使对那些不是特别健壮、有氧能力不强的人，根据我的经验，它也会有效。

Even for people who aren't super fit, don't have a big aerobic capacity, it will work in my experience.

所以我的态度是，与其怀疑或想为什么我不该这么做，不如想想你有什么可失去的？

So my thing is rather than be skeptical or rather than think of, why should I not do this, what do you have to lose?

试试六到八周，看看你的跑步表现是否没有提高。

Give this a try for six or eight weeks and see if you don't notice an improvement in your running performance.

如果没有，如果对你不起作用，那显然也不是什么大损失。

And if you don't, if it doesn't work for you, then obviously it's not a huge loss.

这样做你不会失去任何东西。

You're not going to lose anything by doing this.

如果它确实对你有用，那么我想说，你现在知道了八周前你不知道的训练知识。

And if it does work for you, then I would say now you know something about training that you didn't know eight weeks before.

那你该怎么把它融入你的训练中呢？

And how could you integrate this into your training?

你会在训练的哪个阶段加入它？

When would you add it into your training?

我觉得这些问题比“我该不该做这个”更重要。

And I think those kinds of questions are more important to me than should I be doing this or should I not be doing this.

我觉得每个人都能从中受益。

I think everybody can benefit from it.

我觉得如果你具备Vince说的那些基础，你确实会收获更多。

I think that, yes, you're going to get more out of it if you have these things that Vince was talking about.

你已经打下了基础，赢得了做这个的权利，但你其实不需要赢取那个权利。

You've laid this foundation and you've earned the right to do this, But you don't have to earn that right.

我见过很多从零开始的人做这个，然后惊叹说，天哪，没想到这对我帮助这么大。

I've just seen people off the couch do this and go, wow, I can't believe how it's helped me.

所以我想说，这就是我学习这些东西的方式。

So I would say and this is the way I have learned about these things.

我看到过一个俄罗斯的演讲，先简单说下背景。

I saw this Russian speech I'll give a little context on that.

大约在八十年代中后期，越野滑雪引入了一种滑冰技术，这算是一个很大的变化。之前一直是传统的那种对角蹬踏的经典技术。

So around the mid to late '80s, cross country skiing made a pretty substantial change by adding in a skating technique previous to the classic otherwise, it had always been a classic diagonal stride technique.

然后越野滑雪运动员就开始在滑雪板上用滑冰的方式滑行。

And cross country skiers began to skate on their skis.

我当时就想，为什么不看看速度滑冰运动员怎么做呢？因为他们也是滑冰的方式。

And I thought, well, why don't we look at what speed skaters do because they're skating as well?

于是我开始研究这个，开始看速度滑冰教练给运动员安排什么训练。

And so I started to research that and I started to look at what speed skating coaches were prescribing.

后来我搞到了一份俄罗斯速度滑冰的训练计划，基本上就是我们现在说的肌肉耐力训练。

And then I got ahold of this Russian speed skating, essentially what we would call now a muscular endurance training routine.

我说，那就试试看吧，看看效果怎么样。

And I said, let's try this and see what happens.

所以我觉得教练方法的演变，确实是要有一些理论，理解生理学很重要。

And so I believe that evolution of coaching is, yes, there's some theory and understanding physiology is important.

但很多时候，我们会说，嘿，先试试看，看看能从中得到什么经验。

But a lot of times, it's, hey, let's give this a try and see what we learn from it.

而且从那以后，我就不再使用那位俄罗斯速滑教练原来的那个训练方案了。

And if it does since that time, I don't use that same program from the Russian speed skating coach anymore.

我对它进行了修改。

I've modified it.

我还根据具体运动项目做了调整。

I've adjusted it depending on the sport.

我觉得这就是教练训练通常遵循的演进过程。

And that's the evolutionary process, I think, that coaching generally follows.

大家会去尝试各种方法。

People try stuff.

如果效果不错，那就挺有意思的。

And if it works, that's kind of interesting.

也许我们可以借鉴一下，或者稍微调整、微调，往这个方向或那个方向改改。

Maybe we can adapt it or maybe we can adjust it and tweak it a little bit this way or that way.

所以我觉得我不是在告诉你，我是说，保持怀疑是好的。

So I think I'm not telling you I mean, it's good to be skeptical.

但我觉得与其试图去驳斥什么，不如说那根本不值得花时间。

But I think rather than trying to debunk something, it's just not worth the time.

就像，试试看嘛。

It's like, give it a try.

我有很多人，我就跟他们说，嘿，试试这个，如果对你没帮助就告诉我。

I I've had lots of folks that I've just said, hey, try this out and tell me if it doesn't help you.

而且再说一次，大家的反应普遍都是正面的。

And again, universally, the response is positive.

当然，UTMB可能是超跑圈里比较 demanding 的比赛之一，对吧？

Of course, UTMB is probably on the ultracircuit one of the more demanding sorts of races, right?

我记得大概有100英里，垂直爬升大约一万米，可能还多一点，也许110英里。

With I think it's around 10,000 meters of vertical gain over kind of 100 miles, a bit more, maybe 110.

但也有一些比赛，我不想说更容易，因为那些也挺难的。

But then there are maybe, I don't want to say easier races because it's still quite tough.

比如说西部100那种比赛，整体是下坡赛道，大家都说跑起来更容易。

For example, a Western state, which is a net downhill course, people say it's more runnable.

但当然，可能听节目的听众不一定跑这么难的比赛，可能跑100公里、累计爬升3000米那种。

But of course, there are maybe the listeners who are listening are not doing such tough races, maybe 100 ks with 3,000 vertical.

你觉得到什么程度就不太需要这种训练了？

At what point do you think that it is not as relevant?

可能我有点说得太极端了。

Maybe I stretch it a bit to an extreme.

比如在马拉松这个级别，平路马拉松，可能就不太需要。

Maybe on a marathon level, on a flat marathon, it's maybe not as relevant.

连肌肉力量的要求都没那么高。

You don't need as much muscular strength even.

当然对于UTMB来说，这个论点显然很有说服力。

Of course, for UTMB, the case seems very strong.

汤姆·埃文斯也赢过UTMB。

Tom Evans also won UTMB.

我不知道那时候他是不是你带的。

I don't know if he was coached by you at that point.

哦，抱歉，他赢的是西部100。

Oh, sorry, he won Western States.

那你在准备西部100的时候也用这个吗？即使赛道不一样。

Was it also something you used for Western States already, even given the difference in course?

是的。

Yes.

我觉得这是个很好的对比。

And I will that's a great comparison.

你说得对。

And you're right.

这两条赛道非常不同，准备方式也不一样。

They're very different courses, and the preparation is different.

对汤姆来说就是这样。

It was for Tom.

但在2025年，我们另一位教练也采用了非常强的肌肉耐力训练方法，指导了赢得西部100的凯莱布·奥尔森。

But in 2025, one of our other coaches, also using a very strong muscular endurance approach to the training, coached Caleb Olson, who won Western States.

凯莱布当时背着二十、二十五公斤的背包进行上坡训练。

And Caleb was doing uphill pack carries with twenty, twenty five kilos.

然后他赢得了西部100。

And he won Western States.

他说，是的，我的腿感觉坚不可摧。

And he said, yeah, my legs felt indestructible.

怎么都累不坏。

Could not make my legs tired.

所以，谁不想要一双不会累的腿呢？

And so there's I mean, who doesn't want to have legs that don't get tired?

是的，这确实不同，因为正如你所说，那是净下坡。

And yes, it's different because, as you say, it's a net downhill.

有很多更快的平路跑。

There's a lot of faster flat running.

但如果你能在比赛的前半段甚至后半段保住你的腿，西部一百英里赛中有一些相当大的爬升。

But if you can preserve your legs in the initial part of and even later in the race, are some pretty substantial climbs in Western states.

尽管整体是下坡，但还是有一些大的爬升。

Even though the net is downhill, there's still some big climbs.

如果你能在上坡时节省体力，那么在下坡或平路时，你就会有更多的体力去应对。

And if you can save your legs on those uphills so that the downhills or the flat sections are they'll you're gonna have more legs left for that.

这就是我们和Caleb一起采取的方法。

That was the approach Caleb we we took with Caleb.

这也是Tom夺冠那年我对他采取的方法。

That was the approach I took with Tom the year he won.

所以对我来说，这说不通，显然，对于像Hard Rock或Western States，或者抱歉，Hard Rock或UTMB这样有大量爬升和下降的比赛，这会更重要。

So it's just it doesn't make sense to me that it's I mean, obviously, for something like Hard Rock or Western States or excuse me, Hard Rock or UTMB, where there's an extreme amount of elevation gain and loss, it's going to play an even bigger role.

但这并不意味着它在其他比赛中没有用武之地。

But that doesn't mean it doesn't have a place in any of these other races.

任何比赛，这里有一个非常基本的概念，我认为人们需要理解。

Anything that here's a very basic concept that I think people need to grasp.