为什么越野跑打破了运动科学的规则——与西蒙·德瓦尔博士

这是在越野跑，而且是上坡，大家都在跑。

It's on trail, and it's on an uphill, and the people are running.

但当然，如果四个小时里天气变得很热，这个方法就不太管用了。

But of course, breaks down if it gets very warm over the course of the four hours.

你觉得是持久性的问题，还是仅仅因为现在天气更热了？

Are you seeing a problem with durability or is it just a result of the fact that it is now warmer?

如果一开始跑步时背包里有补给和水，现在可能轻了500克。

If you had nutrition and hydration on your pack at the start of the run, now you might be running 500 grams less.

湿度怎么样？

What's the humidity like?

心率漂移，所有这些因素。

Cardiac drift, all of these things.

对。

Yeah.

而且，实际上，比如我昨天刚拿到，不知道你知不知道Timeware这个品牌。

And in fact, for example, I literally yesterday just got, I don't know if you're familiar with Timeware.

Timeware这家公司测的是呼吸率，不是心率。

Timeware are this company who are measuring breathing rate, not heart rate.

哦，对。

Oh, yes.

对。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

有人联系过我，不知道是不是他们，但那个人有类似的东西，你知道的，就是可以带到野外去，然后你可以……

I've been contacted by I don't know if it's them, but someone with a similar, you know, sort of something you can take into the field and you can

可能吧。

Probably.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

我的想法是，我之前尝试用心率和RPE来做，但数据不太对劲。

And and the idea is, so I tried to do it with heart rate and using RPE, and my data was wonky.

就是，完全不准确。

Like, it wasn't accurate at all.

我希望通过呼吸频率，能得到一个受热、湿度、心漂移影响较小的指标，而呼吸应该能做到这一点。

And I'm hoping that through breathing rate, can get something which is less impacted by heat, by humidity, by cardiac drift, and breathing is meant to do that.

所以这仍然不受控制。

So it's still not controlled.

对，我觉得这是个挑战。

Yeah, I think that's a challenge.

所以，你知道，要测量那种持久性，我们通常会看内部标记和外部表现之间的耦合，心率就是一个很好的例子。

So, you know, to measure that durability that we typically look at the coupling between your some internal marker and it could be heart rates would be a good one.

然后再看一个外部指标，比如努力程度、功率，或者说做功输出。

And then an external marker of effort, of power, of of work output, let's say.

所以在自行车上就很简单，因为整个过程中阻力是恒定的。

So it's very easy on a bike where you've just got a steady resistance the whole time.

好的。

Okay.

我让你以200瓦的功率骑行，然后你就一直保持200瓦。

I want you to cycle at 200 watts and off you go and it's just just ticking over at 200 watts.

然后在疲劳刺激的过程中，某个时刻，为了维持那200瓦，你的心率开始上升，因为不再像刚开始那样轻松了。

And then at some point in order during that fatigue stimulus, at some point in order to maintain those 200 watts, your heart rate starts to climb because it's longer as easy as it was when you were fresh.

它变得困难，我们就会看到这种强度区间随时间漂移或变化。

It becomes hard and we see this sort of intensity domain drift or shift over time.

另一种选择当然是，如果我让你，如果我固定心率，说我想让你以每分钟140次的心率骑行，那么最终，两三个小时后，你可能不得不降低功率来维持同样的心率。

The alternative of course is if I asked you to, if I clamped heart rate and said I want you to cycle that 140 beats per minute, then eventually after two hours, three hours, you might have to drop off your wattage to maintain that same heart rate.

所以我们看到这种外部力量或做功输出与内部指标之间的解耦，内部指标也可以使用乳酸之类的。

And so we see this decoupling of some external force or work output and some internal market could also use lactate or something like that.

当然，呼吸频率也是一个选择。

Maybe breathing rate is another option of course.

但在越野跑中，我觉得这很难，因为这些东西自然会经常脱节。

But I think in trail running, it's very difficult because naturally these things decouple all the time.

当你开始上坡，可能坡度很陡，我也不确定你的疲劳刺激会是什么样子。

When you start to go uphill and maybe you go really steep, I don't know what your fatigue stimulus is gonna look like.

我们有自然的、正常的运动呼吸耦合。

We have natural, normal and natural locomotor respiratory coupling.

所以当你开始加快步频跑步时，呼吸也会变得更急促。

So when you start to increase your stride frequency into a run, you start to breathe more frequently.

而当你放慢速度走路时，呼吸也会变慢。

And when you slow into a walk, you start to breathe more slowly.

在固定坡度下这很有意思。

And it's quite interesting at a fixed gradient.

比如我可以让一个人以25%的坡度、固定速度跑步。

So I can ask somebody to run at 25% at a fixed speed.

而且这个速度既可以跑也可以走。

And it's a speed that they could either run or walk.

他们做的外部功是一样的，但走路和跑步时呼吸频率会变化。

They're doing the same amount of external work, but the breathing rate changes when they're walking versus running.

所以即使在那里也有细微差别，我想说这些在我们的环境中很难控制。

So even there, there's nuanced differences, I would say, are really challenging in our environment to control for.

所以你的这类研究获得的是很高的外部效度或生态效度。

And so what you gain with your kind of research is high in external or ecological validity.

看起来像最终成果，也像比赛当天的表现，但你会失去一些内部效度，以及在理解机制和因果关系时的敏感性。

It looks like the finished article, it looks like the performance on the date, but you lose some of that internal validity and that sensitivity in sort of trying to understand the mechanisms and what's causing what.

是的，这就是我们目前正在应对的挑战。因为在我下一个研究阶段，我真的很想开发一个可以用来区分生理上适应力强的越野跑者和机械上适应力强的越野跑者的模型或框架。

Yeah, this is the challenge that we are grappling with at the moment because I would love to, in my sort of next research phase, I really want to develop what what we would call a model or a framework for distinguishing between physiologically resilient trail runners and mechanically resilient trail runners.

所以随着比赛时间变长，我们通常发现跑者甚至无法跑得足够快。

So as the duration of a race gets longer, we typically find that runners can't even run fast enough.

他们无法再维持足够快的步频，让心率和呼吸率达到接近通气阈减值2、乳酸阈值或最大摄氧量的水平，因为他们移动得太慢，积累了大量的机械疲劳，比如外周疲劳。

They can no longer maintain fast enough stride to get that heart rate, that breathing rate anywhere up to any level even close to or resembling ventilatory threshold two or lactate threshold or VO2max because they're moving so slowly because they've got so much accumulated mechanical fatigue, like peripheral fatigue.

所以，如果我能建立一个模型或框架，来区分那些生理上可能没什么特别、最大摄氧量不高、阈值也不怎么样，而且在这方面韧性也不强的人。

And so if I can build a model or a framework which differentiates between someone who is maybe not physiologically anything special, doesn't have a great VO2max, max their threshold, whatever, and maybe also doesn't have great resilience in that area.

换句话说，就是当他们状态好和疲劳时，差距或幅度很大，但他们在机械方面非常有韧性。

In other words, there's quite a big delta or magnitude between when they're fresh and when they're fatigued, But they're very mechanically resilient.

也就是说，即使在高强度离心负荷和机械疲劳之后，他们仍然能产生相同的肌肉力量和收缩力。

So they're able to generate the same amount of muscular force and contraction, contractile strength after they are very eccentrically loaded and mechanically fatigued.

那么，这样的跑者是不是更适合某种特定的越野赛，我们几乎可以开始识别运动员的强项和弱项。

Is that runner better suited towards a particular kind of trail race and we can almost start to identify strengths and weaknesses for athletes.

所以，如果你在生理上非常有韧性，也许你应该考虑参加垂直千米赛、短距离经典越野赛这类比赛。

So if you're very physiologically resilient, maybe you should consider doing vertical kilometers, short classic trail race kind of races.

如果你在机械上非常有韧性，也许你更适合100英里、100公里以上的距离。

If you're very mechanically resilient, maybe you're better suited to 100 miles, 100 ks plus distance.

我认为这会让运动员开始了解自己最可能在哪些方面表现出色，或者最需要加强什么。

And I think that would start to give athletes a view into where they're best likely to perform or what they need to work on most.

但当然，这如何应用到非常具体的越野赛中，我们只有开始尝试执行，并针对全球多个队列的不同比赛进行建模，才能知道。

But of course, how that applies to a very specific trail race, we won't know until we start to try and execute that and model against a number of different races sort of globally in multiple cohorts.

所以这整个环境挺复杂的。

So it's a whole tricky sort of environment.

但我希望通过和这个领域的研究人员合作，我们也能找到一些好的解决方案。

But I'm hoping through collaboration with researchers that are in this space that we can come up with some good potential solutions as well.

好的。

Okay.

所以你最后提到，你希望能和研究人员合作。

So you you ended with, I'm hoping that I could collaborate with some researchers.

你同时也是一名教练。

You also wear the hat of a coach.

我们提到了实验室测试的适用性或者局限性，因为你当然可以严格控制刺激，但你并不一定真正知道它如何复制，或者在实际比赛那天会是什么情况。

We mentioned the applicability or lack of lab tests because you can, of course, really control the stimulus, but you don't really know necessarily how it kind of replicates or how it will end up being and then on the day.

作为科学家，你对实验室测试的重视程度有多大？

How much value do you put on lab testing, which is maybe your scientific hat?

作为教练，你对实地测试的重视程度又有多大？

And how much value do you put on the field testing, which is more your coaching hat?

有没有价值去建立一个测试框架，然后通过社交媒体发布出去，收集到一百个、一千个回复，再试着分析这些数据？

Is there value in maybe coming up with a testing framework, releasing it or pushing it through social media, getting to a 100, a thousand responses and then trying to analyze the data?

或者，嗯，对。

Or Yeah.

总之，你是怎么处理这个问题的？

Anyhow, how do you deal with this problem?

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这个问题问得很好。

I think great question.

而且就像我们开始之前说的，我没有任何附属关系。

And as we said this before we started, I have no affiliations.

所以我不介意说出我的想法。

So I don't mind saying what I what I think.

我觉得很多教练都把自己的底牌藏得很紧。

And what I think is that a lot of coaches play their cards very close to their chest.

你知道，他们和运动员做的那些工作，我不确定他们是否真的想分享出来。

You know, the work that they do with their athletes, I don't know that they necessarily want to share.

而且我觉得这是我们作为研究者面临的一个挑战。

And I think that that is that is a challenge that we face as researchers.

如果有任何教练听你的播客，并且想通过他们的教练工作做一些研究，请联系我。

If there are any coaches that listen to your podcast and want to do some research, you know, through their coaching, please reach out to me.

你看，你手里握着的是极其宝贵的数据、测试数据、你作为教练的视角、你观察到的、你亲眼见证的、你的专业知识——这些都非常有价值。

You know, you have you are sitting on on on gold, data, testing data, your perspective as a coach, what you what you've observed, what you've witnessed, your expertise, all of these things are immensely valuable.

我觉得你这个点提得很好。我自己，从教练和研究者两种角度来看，这两者当然都有其存在的空间。

I do think you're onto a good point here and my own, let's say coaching versus researcher mindset, I think there's a space for both, of course.

这是最直接的答案。

That's the easy answer.

但也许你可以看到其中的一些差异，或者实验室测试与真实世界测试的价值区别。

But maybe where you see some of the those differences or or the value of lab versus sort of real world tests.

你可能听说过所谓的功能阈值测试，如果你看看乳酸阈值测试、最大摄氧量测试等实验室里做的事情，这些需要非常严格的流程。

You probably will know of something called like the functional threshold test, which if you look at lactate threshold testing, VO2max testing, things that we do in the lab, these require very strict protocols.

我说过，你从某个速度开始，然后按这个坡度增加，每隔一段时间就提速。

I mentioned you start at this speed, you increase by this gradient, etcetera, this speed every so often.

然后你得用非常灵敏的工具来捕捉这些指标。

And then you've got to capture these markers using very sensitive tools.

你得做血乳酸分析。

You've got to do blood lactate analysis.

你得做逐口气的氧气采集等等，这些都很贵，而且只能在实验室里做。

You've got to do oxygen breath by breath capture whatever and it's expensive and you can only do it in the lab.

现在确实有便携式的乳酸测试设备，但说实话，很多在可靠性方面并不怎么样。

You do now get obviously lactate stuff that you can that's portable, but a lot of them are not great if I'm honest, in terms of their reliability.

甚至心肺运动测试也可以带到户外去做。

And you do get even oxygen cardiopulmonary exercise tests you can take out into the field.

所以我们可以开始把一些实验室的东西带到实地，这会推动越野跑领域的发展。

So we can start to take some of the lab stuff into the field which is gonna evolve the space in trail running.

但功能阈值测试就是为这些目的而开发的，是由那些教练们发明的，他们意识到，我无法让我的运动员花这么多钱，或者我没有实验室可用，或者我并不是在指导世界上最顶尖的自行车手或跑步者。

But the functional threshold test was developed for these very purposes by coaches who realized that I can't get my athletes to pay all this money, know, or I don't have access to lab, or I'm not working with you know, the very best cyclist or runner in the world.

我带的运动员想要看到进步，但我不需要对运动员有那么高的精度要求。

I'm working with someone who wants to see improvement, but I don't need to have that level of sensitivity with the athlete.

所以我可以用一些功能性指标来反映他们的运动能力。

So I can get some functional marker of, their performance capacity.

所以 FTP 测试通常是二十分钟或三十分钟，基本上就是像计时赛一样，对吧？

So the FTP test is twenty or thirty minutes, commonly where, you know, you try and it's basically like a time trial, right?

你试着在这三十分钟里保持一个稳定的功率输出或速度，然后就可以说，好，这就是你的功能性阈值。

You try and hold a steady power output or a steady speed for that thirty minute period and then you can go and say, right, this is your functional threshold.

它通常被等同于最大乳酸稳态或乳酸阈值，而不用去测量那些指标。

It's often equated to a maximal lactate steady state or lactate threshold without having to measure those markers.

然后我们说，好，如果你想做最大摄氧量间歇训练，那速度或心率就得超过这个值。

And then we say, right, well, if you wanna do VO2 max intervals, it needs to exceed this speed or this heart rate.

如果你想做稳态训练，那大概就是，我不知道，这个速度的60%或者70%之类的。

If you wanna do steady state, it needs to be, I don't know, 60% of this speed or 70% of the speed or whatever.

然后你就用它来设定你的训练区间。

And you you sort of use it to set your zones.

而且，你可以回到你之前的播客，稍微聊聊训练区间。

And again, you can go back to your previous podcast to to talk a little bit about zones.

但在越野跑中，这就有挑战了。

But so in trail running, have a challenge.

所以功能阈值测试在某种程度上仍然是标准化的。

So the functional threshold test is again still standardized in some way.

所以如果你和跑者做这个测试，我过去通常和我的公路跑者这样做，我会要求他们在平坦的赛道上进行。

So if you were doing that with a runner and I've typically done this with my road runners in the past, I would ask them to do it on a flat course.

那条赛道要标记好、测量好，还要尽量控制天气因素，比如不要在太热或太风大的时候进行，因为我们要确保测试环境是最佳的，并且可以重复。

That's that's marked out and measured and and try and control for the weather and control for know, that you don't do it in too hot or or too know, windy or whatever the case is because we want to try and get the optimal test environment that we can repeat.

这样当我们看到功能阈值提高时，我们就知道这不是因为环境因素。

And so when we see an improvement in your front functional threshold, we know it's not because of some environmental component.

然后在越野跑中，我们需要考虑这个刺激应该是什么样的。

Then in trail running, we have to consider what should that stimulus look like, you know.

所以我可以进行真实世界的测试，但应该是上坡吗？

So I can do a real world test, but should it be uphill?

应该是下坡吗？

Should it be downhill?

应该是平地吗？

Should it be flat?

应该是起伏路吗？

Should it be rolling?

山坡应该有多陡？

How steep should the hills be?

应该是10%的坡度吗？

Should they be 10%?

就像你说的，应该是25%的坡度吗？

Like you said, should they be 25%?

我们知道，25%到40%的坡度是垂直上升速度最大的区间。

We know that 25 to 40% is is the gradient where your vertical ascension speed is maximized.

所以如果坡度比这个更陡，你会慢得太多，无法最大化你的攀爬能力；而如果坡度更缓，每上升一米的垂直高度，你需要跑过太多的水平距离。

So if you go any steeper than that, you slow down too dramatically to maximize your ability to climb and any lower than that or less steep, it take you do too much horizontal distance per vertical meter gain.

所以这里有一个最佳范围。

So there's an optimal range there.

我是不是要针对那些特别陡的坡来优化？

Am I trying to optimize for those really steep ones?

因为我可以让你去爬一个陡坡，然后说，好，我要你在25%的坡度上跑30分钟，去找一个1000米的爬升，那就可以作为功能阈值测试。

Because I could do, I could get you on a, you know, steep climb and I could say, right, I want you to go for thirty minutes on a 25% gradient to go and find a nice 1,000 meter climb somewhere and that and that could be the the functional threshold test.

然后你会有同样的心肺代谢需求，像非常剧烈的运动，但显然速度会慢很多，但对肌肉的向心收缩要求会更高。

And then you'd have this same cardiac metabolic demand like a really intense effort, but obviously going to move a lot slower, but the concentric demand is going to be much greater on the muscles.

所以你需要在三关节伸展器层面产生更多的向心功。

So you're going to have to produce more concentric work at the level of the triple extensor.

所以那看起来更具体一些，但那确实只针对垂直公里赛。

So that looks a bit more specific, but that's really specific to a VK.

在100英里赛中，我必须在最初的10英里内完成那个，而且我还得在某个时候再爬七次那样的坡，而且我还得在中间跑步。

In a 100 mile, I've got to do that within the first 10 miles and I've gotta do seven more of those climbs at some point and I've gotta run-in between.

所以挑战在于，从教练的角度来看，测试应该是什么样的。

So the challenge comes in with the with the coaches eye or view of testing is what should that look like.

现在我推荐一个比较实用的框架，用来跟踪任何类型的越野跑者，这也是基于我的博士研究，就是尽量简化一点。

Now what I recommend, sort of practical framework, if you will, to track any kind of trail runner, and this is just based off of my PhD work, is to try and simplify it a little bit.

所以当我们作为教练测量运动员时，需要了解两件事：他们的最大能力和次最大能力。

So we want to understand two things when we're measuring athletes as coach is what is their maximal capacity and what is their submaximal capacity.

如果我想测量最大能力，比如测最大摄氧量，也就是最大氧气摄入量。

So if I wanna measure a maximal capacity, if I'm trying to measure VO2max, okay, something like maximal oxygen uptake.

我知道刺激需要达到全力输出，大约三到五分钟。

I know that the stimulus needs to be if it's an all out stimulus, approximately three to five minutes.

那是个不错的时间窗口，我会说，好，我要你全力跑三到五分钟，然后看看你能跑多远，或者越野跑的情况下，能爬多高。

That's sort of a good window of right, I want you to go all out for three to five minutes and I'm gonna see how far you can go or in the case of trail running how high you can go.

然后我会观察你的心率变化，也许还可以加上新的可穿戴技术，测量呼吸频率。

And I'm gonna see what your heart rate does and maybe you could add in that new piece of wearable technology, the breathing rate.

呼吸频率。

Breathing rate.

因为心率和呼吸频率结合起来，能很好地反映心输出量。

Because heart rate and breathing rate together will give you quite a good view of cardiac output.

如果我要专注于提高你的最大能力，我就需要知道你的最大摄氧量有没有提升。

And if I'm then focused on improving your maximal capacity, I need to be able to know whether you've improved in your VO2max.

所以有很多方法可以知道，但我的建议是让你的运动员跑一段上坡。

So there's different ways that I can know that, but my suggestion would be get your athlete on an uphill segment.

好吗？

K?

如果你的比赛中有很陡的爬升，那坡度可能会超过15%。

If you are doing steep climbs in your in your your your race, then you could exceed the 15% gradient.

15%这个数字，我总对科学中的神奇数字保持警惕，但15%是阿尔贝托·马内蒂观察到的阈值坡度，超过这个坡度，跑步的代谢成本会发生显著变化。

15% is I'm always wary of magic numbers in science, but 15% is the threshold gradient observed by Alberto Manetti, where the metabolic cost of running changes dramatically.

所以在15%之前，氧气消耗和代谢成本是稳步增加的。

So up until 15%, there's sort of a steady increase in oxygen cost and metabolic cost.

但一旦达到15%，代谢成本就会呈指数级上升。

And then when you hit 15, there's an exponential rise in metabolic costs.

这是因为你与地面接触的时间更长，占空比更高，动量也更小。

And it's got to do with you spend more time in contact with the ground, your duty factor is higher, you have less of a momentum.

所以跑步时会出现那种钟摆效应，主要用来储存能量。

So the sort of pendulum effect we see in running, which serves to sort of store energy.

这样一来，情况就会发生巨大变化。

So that changes dramatically.

肌肉还需要做更多的向心收缩工作。

There's more concentric work of the muscles as well.

所以在15%左右的坡度上，会有很多因素发生变化。

So there's a lot of things that change at that sort of 15% gradient.

所以找一段特别陡的坡，在你家附近找个Strava上的路段，最好能跑个三到五分钟，然后全力冲刺，看看你能爬多高。

So go really steep, find yourself a nice Strava segment around your house that you know is at least three to five minutes, and go all out on that Strava segment and see how far you get up the hill.

如果你的最大摄氧量有提升，那下次你再练的时候，应该就能爬得更高了。

And if you've improved on your VO2max, then hopefully, can expect to go further up the hill next time you you do your effort.

当然，如果坡度特别陡，那就还得看肌肉力量这些因素了。

Of course, if it's really steep uphill, that's also gonna have to do with muscle strength and these kinds of elements as well.

然后我建议你再把经济性测试也加上。

And then I would couple that with a test of economy.

好的。

Okay.

经济性是在次最大速度下测量的。

So economy is at a sub maximal speed.

好的。

Okay.

经济性测试有点难度，因为最大摄氧量测试是全力以赴的，而经济性测试需要控制强度。

So this is it it gets a little bit more challenging with economy because with with maximal capacity, it's just an all out test.

经济性测试需要控制强度。

With economy, you need to clamp effort.

所以我要你跑上这座山，坡度可以是陡峭或中等，中等是低于15%，陡峭是高于15%。

So I want you to run up this hill and it could be steep or moderate, below 15% for moderate, above 15% for steep.

但我要你以固定的主观疲劳度来跑。

But I want you to do it at a fixed RPE.

不要超过，比如，十分之四的强度。

So don't exceed, I don't know, four out of 10.

好的。

Okay.

就按四成的力爬这个坡，这周你可以跑久一点。

Just go up this hill four out of 10 and go for and this week you can go for a bit longer.

所以，如果你想的话，可以跑十、十五、二十分钟，然后看看在固定强度下心率是多少，对吧？

So, you can do ten, fifteen, twenty minutes if you want to, and just see, at a fixed effort what is the heart rate, right?

如果我们用同样的主观用力，但随着时间的推移变得更经济，那么心率应该会相应降低。

If we're using the same perceived effort but we're getting more economical over time, then that heart rate should ostensibly come lower.

另一种可能是，在同样的时间内，你可能会以同样的用力程度跑得更远一些。

The alternative is you might go a little bit further up the hill in the same length of time for the same rates of effort.

另一种尝试的方法是，用心率或速度作为限制，这就有点棘手了，因为主观用力感觉有点主观，不是吗？

The other way that you could try and do it, this is where it becomes a bit more tricky is using heart rate or speed as your clamp because perceived effort is just, know, it's a little bit subjective, isn't it?

但如果你说，好，我要你爬这个坡，你的最大心率是180。

But if you said, right, I want you to go up the hill, your max heart rate is 180.

我会把你限制在70%。

I'm gonna clamp you at 70%.

所以我想让你保持在你的最大心率65%到70%之间。

So I want you to go between 6570% of your max heart rate.

不要低于，也不要超过。

Never go under, never go over.

看着你的手表，我想让你爬坡十分钟。

Keep an eye on your watch and I want you to go up the hill for ten minutes.

然后我看看你能爬到坡上的什么位置。

And I and then I'm seeing where do you end up on the hill.

如果你效率更高，应该能爬到更高的位置，你也可以用速度来做同样的测试。

If you're more economical, you should end up, higher on the hill and you can do the same with speed.

但这些方式更难控制。

But these are much more challenging to control.

你提到过你有一条坡度很稳定的坡。

And you mentioned you have a hill that's quite consistent in the grade.

所以如果坡度真的很稳定，你甚至可以放一些标记，每到你到一个标记，就是又过了一分钟，就这样。

So what you could do if it's a very consistent grade is you could even put markers out that sort of every time you hit the market and it's another minute or whatever the case is.

其实，你可以用各种方法来调整这个。

I mean, listen, there's all sorts of ways that you can play around with that.

但你要选一条能代表比赛路况的路线。

But choose a trail that's representative of the race demand.

而且，就算我刚刚说的这些，也忽略了跑下坡之类的部分。

And even with that, what I've just given to you, it neglects potentially the downhill running side, etcetera.

所以，我觉得这就是一种在现实中测试、长期监测你表现的方式。

So that would be my way of doing some real world testing to sort of monitor your performance over time.

如果你在实验室里做，还可以加上所有的氧气数据和乳酸数据，这样可以把这些心率区间细化到更小的范围。

If you did in the lab, can add on, you can layer in all the actual oxygen data and the lactate data, which helps you to take these zones to a much more discrete sort of smaller window.

这样你的训练可能就能更精准一些。

So you can maybe have a bit more precision in your training.

但我觉得对大多数跑者来说，能有个功能性的指标来衡量进步就已经很有帮助了。

But I think for most runners, just having a functional measure of the improvement over time is gonna be helpful.

我之前粗略分析过我的Substack订阅者，大概有20%到30%是教练。

I once did an analysis a bit of my Substack subscribers and around 20 to 30% were coaches in my rough estimate.

所以如果你需要给教练或研究人员发个信息，尽管说。

So if you ever need to shoot out a communication to coach for research, feel free.

对。

Yeah.

那我就是第一个参与者了。

That's I'll be the first participant.

所以……

So

谢谢。

Thank you.

对。

Yeah.

而且我觉得，哪怕只是了解一下教练们在做什么也好。

And I think even just to understand what coaches are doing.

对。

Yeah.

你知道的，你们是怎么监测和测试你们的越野跑者的？

You know, what are you doing to to monitor and test your your trail runners?

因为我们肯定不能再用路跑测试来对待越野跑者了。

Because we definitely need to move beyond road running tests for trail runners.

我觉得那些测试根本不管用。

I just don't think they fit the fit the bill.

它们不适合这个用途。

They're not fit for purpose.

对。

Yeah.

所以刚才这45分钟是一段很长的题外话，但是非常有价值。

So these last forty five minutes were one big tangent, one very valuable tangent.

那我还是把话题拉回来，聊聊你发表的第二篇研究吧。

So I'll try to get us back and talk about your second piece of published research.

在这篇研究里，我感觉你想更进一步，用比赛结果和成绩数据来分析顶尖跑者和后段跑者的区别。

Over here, I feel like you try to go a step further and try to use results and race data to understand what distinguishes top runners and maybe back of the pack runners.

你描述的方式是前十名与非前十名的对比。

And the way you described it is top 10 versus not top 10.

对。

Yeah.

你能稍微描述一下那项研究、你的发现以及你采用的方法吗？

Can you describe a bit that research and what you found and the protocol you adopted there?

好的。

Yeah.

所以我们想开发一套跑步机测试组合。

So we wanted to develop this treadmill test battery.

我们当时知道超长距离跑步的研究还很少。

We knew at that point that ultra running was underexplored.

从系统综述来看，主要都是短距离的研究。

So in the from the systematic review, it was it was all sort of short stuff predominantly.

我更感兴趣的是超长距离的语境。

I was more interested in the ultra context.

但我们不知道应该让参与者在什么坡度下进行测试。

But we didn't know at what gradient should we test the participants at.

我们知道我们不想用0%的坡度。

We knew we didn't want to do 0%.

之前的一些研究者，Foltershire、Sabine、Ostrom，他们用了10%的坡度。

Some previous researchers, Foltershire, Sabine, Ostrom had done 10%.

但即使是10%，我也觉得不太理想。

But even 10%, I didn't feel was great.

所以我们想分析一场真实的比赛。

So we wanted to do an analysis of a real world race.

我们身边最好的比赛就是开普敦超级越野跑。

The best race that we had on our doorstep was Ultra Trail Cape Town.

我们想知道运动员实际上会面临什么样的坡度。

We wanted to know what are the athletes actually exposed to.

所以我联系了斯图·麦康纳基，他是UTCT的赛事总监之一，我非常感谢他，这些年他一直很支持我们。

So I contacted Stu McConaughey, who's the race director or one of the race directors at UTCT, and I owe him a a lot, which I always say thank you to him, for his support over the years.

然后我说，听着，我们想获取你们参赛者的数据。

And and I said, listen, we wanna get access to your participants.

后来我们就把后续的研究重点放在了UTCT的参赛者身上。

And we focused on UTCT participants over the subsequent papers.

而这次研究呢，我们用的是Strava的数据，因为没法用公路赛中那种电子计时打卡点，毕竟在两个打卡点之间的海拔升降差距，跟二到三号打卡点之间完全不一样。

And for this one, we looked at using Strava data because we couldn't use the electronic timing checkpoints that you would use in a road race because the amount of vertical elevation gain or loss between checkpoint one or two is completely different between two and three.

所以我就去研究了Strava。

So I looked into Strava.

很明显，用Strava的话，分段可以划分得细很多。

And obviously, with Strava, you can have much smaller segments.

我记得在我们分析里，平均分段长度也就一公里多，不像100公里比赛设10个打卡点那样，每个打卡点就得隔10公里。

So I think the average segment length in our analysis was just over one kilometer as opposed to let's say 10 checkpoints over 100 ks race, which is like 10 kilometers.

这样我们分析起来就灵敏多了。

So we get a much more sensitive analysis.

然后我们选了那一年有Strava数据的前十名参赛者。

And we took the top 10, those who had Strava data for that year.

然后我们随机抽取了所有排名前十名之外的完赛者作为样本。

And then we took a random sample of everyone who finished outside of the top 10.

我们想比较他们在整个比赛过程中的配速。

And we wanted to compare their pacing over the course of of the race.

配速是其中一个方面，因为我们想看看它是如何变化的。

So the pacing was one part because we were interested to see how that changes.

但实际上，我们暗地里在做的是观察他们在不同坡度上的平均跑速，以便我们能为跑步机测试设定合适的速度，并了解他们面对的是什么样的坡度。

But actually, what we were doing secretly is seeing how fast were they running at different gradients on average, so that we could pitch the treadmill protocol at the right speeds and what sort of gradients are they exposed to.

我们很早就决定只做上坡跑，因为在实验室里，你不可能让跑步机快速从25%的上坡切换到25%的下坡。

And we decided quite early that we would clamp it to uphill running only because in a laboratory, you cannot get a treadmill to go from 25% uphill to 25% downhill quickly.

电动跑步机需要很长时间才能调整坡度，而且大多数电动跑步机的下坡限制在3%左右。

It takes a long time for motorized treadmills and most motorized treadmills have a downhill limit at about 3%.

它们不能下很陡的坡。

They don't go very steep downhill.

所以如果你想跑陡坡，就得把跑步机垫高，那就变成了一件麻烦事。

So if you wanted to go steep, you got to put them up on blocks and then becomes a steep thing.

我们当时想要一个测试，那时候我觉得，这样别人也能复制它。

And we wanted a a test that at that time, I thought well then other people can replicate it.

其实我现在觉得这个测试并不是特别容易复制，但这没关系。

I actually don't think that the test is super replicable and that's fine.

我对此无所谓，因为越野跑环境有很多细微差别，你知道的。

I'm I'm okay with that because of the nuance of of, you know, trail running environment.

但通过配速分析我们发现，前十名的选手往往比非前十名的选手起步更保守。

But what we've found through the pacing analysis is that the top 10 runners tended to start a lot more conservatively than the not top 10 runners.

当然，前十名的选手显然跑得比非前十名的选手快得多。

So the top 10 runners still, obviously we're running way faster than the not top 10 runners.

但如果你把他们所有分段的速度相对于他们整体比赛速度来看，前十名的选手起步更平稳、更轻松，但最后冲刺也更强。

But if you take their segment speed for all of those cumulative segments proportional to their overall race speed, The top 10 runners start a lot more moderately sort of easier, but they also finish a lot stronger.

所以他们的速度确实会随着比赛进行而下降，就是那种典型的正配速曲线。

So they do sort of decay in speed as the race goes on, your classic positive sort of pacing curve that you would see.

但非前十名的选手往往在比赛接近尾声时速度急剧下降，这里没有双关的意思。

But not top 10 runners tend to sort of drop off a cliff, no pun intended, towards the end of the race.

有意思的是，在比赛接近尾声时，非前十名选手在下坡路段的表现相对而言会急剧下滑。

And interestingly, towards the end of the race, the not top 10 runners dramatically worsen in terms of their relative performance on the downhill sections.

所以我们发现，前十名选手在下坡路段更能保持配速，而非前十名选手，在比赛后期上坡路段的表现相对早期还算可以，但他们的下坡速度却急剧下降。

So we found that top 10 runners were better able to maintain their pace on these downhill sections, not top 10 runners, they were still doing okay in the uphill sections late in the race, relative to the uphill performance early in the race, but their downhill speed dramatically worsened.

我觉得那时候就已经是个警示信号了，提醒我们得关注机械性疲劳和下坡跑带来的离心负荷。

And I mean that could have been at that point already a warning sign to say, oh, we need to focus on mechanical fatigue and the eccentric demands of downhill running.

UCCT的累计下降高度有5000米，更别提上升高度了。

UCCT has got 5,000 meters of vertical elevation loss, never mind the gain.

所以你的股四头肌会彻底被摧毁。

So your quads are getting absolutely shattered.

不过，是的，我们也用这个来分析上坡、平路和下坡之间的关系。

But yeah, we use that to to sort of also look at the relationships between uphill level and downhill.

这就是Strava的好处。

That's the nice thing about Strava.

我可以去，而且我收录的上坡路段都是纯上坡的。

I could go and I included uphill segments were only segments where there was only uphill running.

上坡路段里没有混合路段。

There were no mixed segments in the uphill segments.

下坡路段也一样，只包含下坡跑步。

And the same with downhill, it's only downhill running in the downhill segments.

我做了一个相关性分析，就是简单的相关，把上坡跑步表现和整体表现做相关，还有平地或者混合路段，我们称之为平地，任何平均坡度在正负1%以内的路段都归为平地。

And I did a correlation, just a basic correlation between uphill running performance and overall running performance and level running or mixed, we called level where any segment that had an average gradient of less than 1% positive or negative was classified as a level.

我们把那些表现和整体表现做了相关分析，下坡表现也一样。

We correlated that performance to overall performance and the same with downhill performance.

结果发现，上坡表现和整体表现的相关性最强。

And we found that the strongest correlate was uphill performance.

但这并不是说上坡跑比下坡跑更重要。

But again, that's not because uphill running is more important than downhill running.

而是因为在任何越野跑中，上坡跑在总跑步时间中占的比例更大。

It's because uphill running forms a greater proportion of total running time in any trail race.

如果你跑的是越野赛，而且是环形赛道，不是点对点的，那么你上升的距离和下降的距离是一样的。

If you do a trail race, that is a round race, not a point to point race, you're gonna go just as far up as you do down.

而且你想一下，你上坡的速度几乎是下坡的两倍慢，所以当然你在上坡上花的时间会比下坡多，因为你要对抗重力，把重心抬高，这会让你的速度成倍下降。

And if you consider that you're you're running almost, you know, twice as slow going uphill than you are going downhill, then of course, you're going to spend more time in an uphill condition than you are in a downhill because you've got to fight against gravity, raise the center of mass and that slows you down exponentially.

所以我们当时就决定，虽然下坡显然很重要，但上坡和整体表现的关系更紧密，因为它占了整体表现的更大比例。

So we decided at that point that although the downhill is clearly very important, the uphill is more strongly related to overall performance because it represents a greater portion of overall performance.

所以我们先从上坡开始研究，之后随时可以再探讨下坡。

So we'd rather start there and then we can always explore downhill thereafter.

好，那我总结一下。

Okay, so let me summarize.

我确认一下我理解得对不对，然后我们进入下一个问题。

So I see that I understood everything and then go to the next question.

你从这项研究中主要发现了三点。

There were three things that you essentially found from the study.

第一，按你的说法，顶尖选手相比非前十名选手，起步更保守。

First is the way you phrased it is that top runners tend to start more conservatively compared to non top 10 runners.

当体能开始下降时，最明显的是在非前十名选手身上，尤其是他们在下坡的时候。

When the breakdown starts happening, you see it the most when runners, especially in the non top 10 runners, they were running downhill.

对。

Yeah.

但是，你觉得上坡的表现最能代表他们的整体完赛时间，或者相关性最强，对吧？

However, you felt that the performance on the uphill is the most representative or could correlate the best towards their overall finishing time or Yeah.

对，完全正确。

Yeah, exactly right.

这个发现并不少见。

And that finding is not unique.

所以，其他研究过配速的研究者也发现了非常相似的情况，就是那些比较慢的后段跑者，尤其是比赛后半段的下坡路段，他们最吃力。

So there's been other researchers that have looked at this pacing and have found very similarly that recreational sort of back of the pack runners, it's the back end of the race on the downhill segments where they struggle.

你就会看到他们移动得非常慢，因为肌肉疲劳、疼痛和炎症都很严重。

That's it's just you just see these guys are just moving, you know, totally slowly because they've got so much muscle fatigue and and pain and inflammation.

那么，如果他们下坡时速度下降的幅度最大，为什么你觉得最能代表表现的是上坡的表现？

So why did you feel that the thing which represents performance the most is the performance on the uphill if they break down, if they slow down percentage wise the most on the downhill?

这是不是有点反直觉？

Is that a counterintuitive?

这有点

It's sort

反直觉的，但同时，正如我所说，主要分析中，如果看固定效应，非前十名的选手在比赛后半程比前十名的选手更慢。

of counterintuitive, but at the same time, as I mentioned, the main analysis, if you look at sort of the fixed effect is that, not top 10 runners get slower later on in the race compared to top 10 runners.

所以他们在平路跑和上坡跑时也都变慢了。

So they also get slower in the level running, they also get slower in uphill running.

只是在下坡段，这个差异的幅度更大。

It's just that the delta, the magnitude of the difference is larger in the downhill section.

所以我们并不是在简单地肯定或否定下坡跑表现的重要性。

So we're not just crediting or discounting the fact that downhill running performance is important.

的确如此。

It certainly is.

但如果你只看在上坡段所花的总时间，那可就多得多。

But if you just look at the total amount of time spent in uphill conditions, it's it's a lot greater.

所以是的，理想情况下，你需要两者兼备。

So yeah, you need ideally, you need both.

说实话，下坡跑在生理学上有点棘手，因为地面反作用力更大，制动冲量也更大，但你实际上看不到太多心率反应。

I'm not gonna lie, but downhill running is a bit tricky when it comes to physiology because the ground reaction forces are larger, the braking impulse is larger, but you don't actually see much of a heart rate response.

所以你可能看起来像是在恢复，但实际上你下坡跑得很辛苦。

So you can actually look like you're sort of recovering, but you're running quite hard going downhill.

所以再说一次，当你研究生理学时，因为那个原因，关于下坡跑的研究并不多。

So again, when you're looking at physiological research, there's not a lot of it done in downhill running because of that very reason.

上坡条件下的研究倒是有的。

There is existing research in uphill conditions.

所以是的，这是那种你看着它，心想我知道这很重要，但我必须做出决定的情况。

And so yeah, it was, it's one of those ones you sort of look at it and you think I know this is important, but I need to make a call here.

我不能全都做。

Like I can't do all of this.

所以是的，那是我们最终的决定。

So yeah, that was our final call there.

对。

Yeah.

这确实有点共鸣，因为我是一个非常差的下坡跑者，尤其是技术性下坡，我特别不擅长。

It seems to resonate a bit with so I'm a very bad downhiller runner and I'm especially a bad technical downhill runner.

我的朋友们，可能我在上坡时比他们快，但他们在下坡时超过我。每次比赛时，我都告诉他们，请先跑下坡，至少前50%。

And my friends who maybe I'm faster on the uphill and they beat me on the downhill, whenever they race, I tell them, please take the downhill slope, at least the first 50%.

我以前一直以为，或者说过去我认为，我的耐力比一般人强，所以我能比大多数人跑得更远。

And I always associated, or in the past, I thought that I had above average durability and that's why I could sustain the distances better than most.

但随着时间的推移，我的想法开始改变，其实是因为我下坡太差了，而且我不去硬拼，所以我不会像其他人那样造成那么多损伤。

But over time, my assumption started changing and it is because I'm so bad at the downhills and I don't try to push them that I don't create the amount of damage that other people do.

所以我的机械耐久性，其实是因为我不擅长某件事，而且我不去强求，所以我实际上不会造成那些损伤，而这些损伤会随着时间让我变慢。

And therefore my mechanical durability is a result of the fact that because I'm bad at something and I don't push it, I actually don't create the damage, which slows me down over time.

完全正确。

A 100%.

而且我们在论文中提到了一种叫做“群体效应”的东西，前十名的跑者还有一个特点，就是他们对比赛后期身体会有什么感觉，有更好的心理预判。

And that's we've mentioned in this paper something called the herd effect and what top 10 runners also have is they have a way better mental map of what their body is gonna feel like later on in the race.

所以他们的配速策略更好，这样他们就能跑得更均匀。

And so their pacing behavior is better, you know, so that they can run more evenly.

而前十名以外的跑者，当然不是全部，但很多人可能是第一次跑这个距离。

Whereas not top 10 runners, not all of them of course, but a lot of them might be doing the distance for the first time.

你知道，他们的体能水平每个赛季变化都很大。

You know, they've they've fitness levels changed quite dramatically season to season.

所以他们出发后，在比赛中的某个时刻，意识到自己出发太快了，然后剩下的赛程就变成了一场痛苦的挣扎。

And so they go out and then at some point in the race, they realize they've gone out way too hard and then it becomes a death march into the finish line.

这就是为什么预测表现的最佳指标之一是你之前在同距离比赛中的表现，就像你说的。

And this is why one of the best predictors of a performance is your performance at the previous race of the same distance as you said.

同一场比赛，同一距离，那将是你最有价值的参考数据。

Same race, same distance, that's gonna be, you know, the most valuable marker that you have.

然后你希望从训练中得到一些参考点，来判断自己是否能期待跑得快一点。

And then you've hopefully got some reference points from training as to whether you can expect to be a bit quicker or not.

然后你就可以据此规划你的表现了。

And then you can plan your performance from there.

但我绝不会对任何越野跑者说，我也经常对我的运动员说，尤其是那些第一次参加比赛的运动员。

But never would say to any trail runner, and I say this to my athletes all the time who do races for the first time.

而且他们对自己的表现抱有很大的期望和目标。

And they've got lofty ambitions and goals about how well they're gonna do.

我就说，你这是第一次参加这种越野赛。

And I'm like, you're doing this trail race for the first time.

把你脑子里任何时间目标都先扔到一边去吧。

Take any time goal that you have in your mind and just sort of throw it out the door.

当然，态度还是要认真一点。

Try to be respectful, obviously.

就上场尽力跑，能跑多好跑多好。

Just go out there and do as well as you can.

如果你喜欢这个比赛，想再回来，那我们可以确保你对这个比赛能跑出什么样的成绩有一个准确的心理预期。

And if you love it and you wanna come back to the race, then we can look at making sure that you've got an accurate sort of mental idea of what you can execute at that race.

好的，我们时间快不够了，但我想再聊一点。

Okay, so we're starting to run out of time, but I want to touch a bit.

你之前提过几次，第三项研究，就是你定义那个上坡实验室测试方案的那个。

You mentioned it already a few times, the third study where you actually define the protocol, uphill lab protocol.

我觉得那个研究里有个有趣的发现，你之前也提到过一点，就是稍微陡一点的路面确实比平路好，但这也是有限度的。

And I think the interesting finding there, which you kind of mentioned a bit earlier, is that of course something slightly steeper is better than something flat, but there is a limit to that.

不能太陡。

You don't want it too steep.

我对那第三个研究的理解对吗？

Was my understanding of that third study right?

你能给我们讲讲那第三个研究吗？

Like, can you walk us through that third study?

对。

Yeah.

某种程度上是的。

To to some extent, yes.

我觉得我们当时意识到的是，如果我们想用这个研究或者这个方案来预测或确定表现的变化，我们需要确保这个研究是可靠的。

I think what we sort of realized at that point is that if you want if we wanted to use the study or this protocol to predict or determine the variation in performance, we need to know that it's a reliable study.

所以每次我测量跑步经济性时，同一个人在相同的相对强度下得到的结果应该是一致的，测试中不应该有太多噪音或误差。

So every time I capture running economy, I'm getting the same score for the same person at the same relative effort that there's not a lot of noise or error on the test.

所以，要做到这一点，你需要进行可靠性研究，也就是重测信度研究，尽量控制实验室环境，在两次或多次访问之间保持一致。

And so the way you do that is you do a reliability, a test retest reliability study, where you try and control as much as possible the lab environment between two or more visits.

然后你测量同一个人，得到相同的指标，看看两次条件下的结果是否一致。

And then you measure the same person for the same measures and you see what the agreement is between the two conditions.

所以这是个体内研究，我们找了23名超级越野跑者来做。

So it's within person study, we did it with 23 Ultra Trail runners.

我们发现，典型的……我就不深入了，因为这里有很多数字。

And we found that the sort of typical and I won't go too in-depth because there's a lot of numbers here.

但我们收集的生理指标，比如心率、摄氧量、跑步经济性和呼吸交换率等，其典型测量误差基本在其他人报告的范围内。

But the typical error of measurement was for the physiological markers that we collected, so heart rates, oxygen uptake, running economy and respiratory exchange ratio, these kinds of things, was pretty much within the norms of what other people have reported.

所以大约在2%到3%之间，有些指标噪声稍大一些。

So two percent to 3%, somewhere a little bit more noisy.

当然，RPE（主观疲劳评分）噪声很大，我认为它不太可靠。

Certainly, RPE was very noisy and I would say not very reliable rating of perceived exertion.

但总的来说，我们对可靠性还算满意，可以说它足够可靠。

But we were sort of happy with the general reliability, I would say it adequate.

那项研究的第二部分，是想把这些坡度下的经济性和平地经济性关联起来。

And the second part of that study I would was trying to correlate economy at those gradients with flat or level running economy.

另外，继续说回第一篇论文，我当时的推测是我们在这儿的评分不好，是因为它无法代表比赛的实际要求。

Because one of the things, again, you go all the way back to paper one that I speculated was the reason we're getting poor scores here is because this is not representative of the race demands.

现在我在测试上坡，我测了5%、10%和25%这三种不同的上坡坡度。

Now I'm testing an uphill, and I'll test tested at 5%, 10%, and 25%, so different levels of uphill gradient.

我在想，平地经济性和这些不同上坡坡度之间会不会有很好的一致性。

I wonder whether there'll be a good agreement between the level economy and this the varying uphill gradients.

而我们发现的是——我们匹配了跑步机的速度。

And what we found so we we matched the f we matched the treadmill speed.

我们用阿尔贝托·马内蒂发布的方程式做了大量计算，后来Strava也采用了这些公式。

We did a lot of mathematics using equations published by Alberto Manetti and then since adopted by Strava.

所以在Strava上，你会看到坡度调整后的配速。

So on Strava, you get the grade adjusted pace.

如果你用某个速度跑上坡，它会显示在平地上相当于每公里四分钟或每英里六分钟这样的配速。

If you run uphill at a particular speed, it will say on a level gradient, this is the equivalent of four minutes per kilometer or six minutes per mile or whatever the speed will be.

他们实际上采用了阿尔贝托·马内蒂的公式，他测试了从负40%到正40%坡度的跑步者，然后观察在保持相同跑步机速度的情况下，随着坡度变陡或变缓，氧气消耗或跑步成本的变化，然后调整跑步机速度以保持稳定的跑步成本。

And they actually adopted Alberto Manetti's equation where he tested runners from negative 40% to positive 40% gradient and then looked at the change in oxygen cost or cost of running when maintaining the same treadmill speed as the gradient got steeper or less steep and then made adjustments to the treadmill speed to maintain a stable cost of running.

所以我们基本上反向工程了这个，得到了我们所说的等效速度。

And so we've sort of reverse engineered that to have what we call equivalence.

所以对大多数人来说，等效速度应该是：如果你在0%坡度上以每小时10公里的速度跑步，那么在5%坡度上你需要以每小时7.7公里的速度跑，在10%坡度上需要以每小时6公里的速度跑，在25%坡度上需要以每小时3.4公里的速度跑。

So the equivalent should be for most people, if you run at 10 kilometers an hour on a 0% gradient, you need to run at 7.7 kilometers an hour on a 5% gradient and you need to run at six kilometers an hour on a 10% gradient and 3.4 kilometers an hour on a 25% gradient.

所以我们用那个线性回归来反向计算。

So we use that linear regression to sort of reverse calculate that.

这里面涉及了很多应用数学。

It's quite a lot of sort of applied mathematics that went into that.

但我们发现的核心问题是，上坡跑步经济性与平地跑步经济性的相关性并不好，而且随着坡度增加，这种相关性变得更差。

But the thrust of what we found is that uphill running economy was not very well correlated with level running economy, and it got worse.

也就是说，随着跑步机坡度的增加，这种关系的强度变得更弱。

So the strength of that relationship got worse as the gradient of the treadmill increased.

换句话说，在平地上以每小时10公里和每小时12公里跑步时的氧气需求是相当相关的。

So in other words, flat at 10 kilometers an hour and flat at 12 kilometers an hour we're quite well correlated the oxygen demand.

它们的相关系数在0.7到0.8之间，与5%的坡度相关性很好，这也合理，因为坡度差别不大。

They were R of 0.7 to 0.8 quite well correlated with 5% gradient and it should be because they're relatively similar, it's not much deeper.

但当我们把坡度提高到10%时，相关系数就降到了0.5以下。

But then that R value dropped to 0.5% or under when we took it up to 10%.

而在25%坡度下的经济性与平地经济性之间没有相关性，这基本上告诉我们，如果只测量你平地跑步的经济性，是无法预测你在25%坡度上的经济性的。

And then there was no relationship between 25% economy and 0% economy, which essentially tells us that it doesn't there's no ability to tell how economical you will be at 25% gradient if we just capture your 0% running economy.

这对我们来说是一个关键发现，因为它让那些用平地测试来推测越野跑表现的研究产生了疑问。

And this was a really key finding for us because it costs a little bit of doubt onto studies that are using level protocols to try and assume how well someone might do in a trail running environment.

同时，我们也必须考虑到，我们的研究只关注了上坡部分。

In the same breath, we have to consider that our study only looked at the uphill components.

当然，我们也有局限性，但我认为目前所有研究的重点都在于揭示越野跑表现是多因素的。

So we also have limits, of course, but I think the thrust of where all of the research is going right now is to try and shine cast a light on the fact that trail running performance is multifactorial.

它包含许多不同的组成部分，我们需要一个全面的、多因素的性能画像，而不是只抓一两个指标的简化观点。

It's got a number of different components to it and we need to have a holistic sort of multifactorial performance profile rather than taking this reductionist view of just capturing one or two things.

所以，是的，这些就是我认为的关键发现。

So, so yeah, those were, I would say, the the key findings.

然后我们真的用19名跑者进行了这项研究，他们跑了比赛，这个数据还没有完全公布，但很快就会出来。

And we then actually went and executed this with 19 runners who then ran the race and this date is not sort of out yet, but it will come out soon.

我们发现跑步经济性和最大摄氧量，其中最大摄氧量再次是我们最强的独立预测指标。

And we found that running economy and VO2max, so VO2max was again our strongest independent corridor.

但在25%和10%坡度下的跑步经济性与100公里成绩强相关。

But running economy at 2510% gradients were strongly correlated with 100 kilometer performance.

虽然不如公路赛那么强，但肯定比最初系统综述发现的0.3的相关系数要强得多，我再次把这归因于如果你更经济，你可能训练更多，更强壮，更有韧性等等。

Again, it's not at the level of a road race, but certainly stronger than that initial systematic review found, the R of 0.3, sort of significantly stronger than that, which I again put down to the fact that if you're more economical, you've probably been doing more training, you're more robust, more resilient, etcetera.

我们只能推测，因为我们没有测量肌肉的主动和被动收缩能力以及疲劳等，但我们推测，这将成为下一阶段的研究。

I mean, we have to speculate about that because we didn't measure muscle, voluntary and involuntary contraction capacity and fatigue and those kinds of things, but we speculate and that then becomes the next phase of research.

有意思。

Interesting.

好的。

Okay.

在结束之前，我有最后一个问题，你可以随意回答，想多长或多复杂都行。

Before we close, I have one final question, which I'll let you take, or or make as as as long or complicated as you want.

你接下来想研究什么？

What do you want to look at next?

你未来的研究计划是什么样的？

What what's future research looking like for you?

有什么特别的方向吗？

Anything specific in particular?

是的。

Yeah.

我会简短说，因为前面已经提到不少了。

I'll keep it brief because I've I've touched on quite a lot of it in in sort of passing.

我觉得关键是要做合作研究。

I think the key for me is to do collaborative research.

博士毕业后，你会发现和别人一起工作更有趣，而且你不可能什么都懂，别人有独特的视角，很有价值。

After you finish a PhD, I think you realize that it's more fun to work with other people and also that you don't understand everything and that other people have unique perspectives which are valuable.

所以关键之一就是尽可能多地合作。

So one of the key things is to collaborate as much as possible.

我其实正在尝试和我的一些博士考官合作，他们一直在做研究，Volkershire 和 Guillaume Mille 是我的两位考官。

I'm trying to do some collaborative work with some of my PhD examiners actually, who've been doing research, Volkershire and Guillaume Mille are two of my examiners.

所以除了继续和我的导师团队以及我在 ECSS（欧洲运动科学会议）等场合认识的新合作者合作之外，我也在努力在这方面有所进展。

So trying to get something there as well as continuing to collaborate with my supervisory team and some new collaborators that I've met along the way through ECSS, European Conference of Sport Science and those kinds of things as well.

简单来说，我对耐久性非常感兴趣。

I think very quickly speaking, I'm very interested in durability.

我仍然喜欢生理学，也想继续在这个领域深耕，但我确实想开始考虑疲劳的影响，以及疲劳管理或韧性如何可能成为更细致的表现指标。

I still enjoy the physiology and I want to continue in that area, but I do want to start considering the impact of fatigue and how fatigue management or resilience might be a more nuanced marker of performance.

我也很想开始做一些更贴近实际应用的工作。

I would love to start doing some more real world work as well.

就是把东西从实验室里拿出来。

So taking stuff out of the lab.

我们有近红外光谱技术，可以放在肌肉上观察外周氧合情况。

We do have near infrared spectroscopy, which you can put on the muscles and look at peripheral oxygenation.

我们还有便携式心肺运动测试设备。

We've got mobile cardiopulmonary exercise tests.

我们还能做乳酸分析。

We've got lactate analysis that we can do.

所以我们现在开始能做到这一点了。

So we are starting to be able to do that.

然后把一些生理学的东西和配速策略联系起来。

And then linking some of the physiological stuff to the pacing stuff as well.

所以如果我们真的有这些生理指标，它们是否也能帮助解释为什么随着比赛距离增加，配速策略会变化？

So if we actually have the physiological markers, does that also help to explain how the pacing strategy varies as the race duration increases?

所以想把一些生理学的东西也引入到配速的世界里。

So trying to bring some of the physiology into the pacing world as well.

所以有几个领域，但越野跑非常动态。

So there's a few areas, but trail running is so dynamic.

很难说，我只想做这一件事，你知道，因为如果你只看一个方面，你会觉得没有充分展现它的价值。

It's it's difficult to say, I just wanna do this one thing, you know, because you feel like you're not gonna do it justice if you only look at at one area.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Alright.

这次对话真的很有启发性。

So this was a really insightful conversation.

我觉得我们还能再聊几个小时，而且还会有更多问题。

I mean, we could keep going for a few more hours and still have more questions.

但我想很多人可能还有额外的问题，或者想联系你。

But I guess for a lot of people, they might have additional questions or they might want to reach out.

所以，是的。

So Yeah.

现在轮到你了，可以说说最后的想法、要点，当然还有联系方式。

The floor is yours for any final words, any take homes, and, of course, contact details.

人们在哪里能找到你？

Where can people find you?

是的。

Yeah.

首先，非常感谢你邀请我来。

Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me.

和你聊天真的太愉快了。

It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you.

就像你刚才说的，我们真的可以聊上好几个小时。

And as you said, I think we could chat for hours.

如果大家还想听更多内容，我随时欢迎。

If there's appetite for discussing more stuff, I'm always open to it.

对于你的听众来说，联系我最好的两个方式，主要是从教练和个人角度来说。

For your audience, probably the best two best ways to contact me in my sort of coaching and personal capacity.

我和我妻子一起经营一家教练公司。

My wife and I have a coaching business.

叫做Rooted in Dirt，r o o t e d，Rooted in Dirt。

It's called Rooted in Dirt, r o o t e d, Rooted in Dirt.

我们有网站和Instagram主页，大家可以通过这些平台联系到我们。

We have a website and Instagram page, you can reach out through those platforms.

从研究合作的角度来说，我在英国的格洛斯特郡大学工作。

From a researcher sort of collaboration capacity, I work at the University of Gloucestershire in The UK.

所以如果你在网上搜索 Simon de Waal，格洛斯特郡大学，就能找到我，或者你可以发邮件到 sdewaal@glos.ac.uk。

So you'll be able to find me online if you just search Simon de Waal, University of Gloucestershire, but you can email me at s de Waal, so it's sdewaal@gloss,glos,.ac.uk.

这就是我的邮箱，如果你有什么合作的想法想跟我聊聊的话。

So that's my email address if you if you got some sort of collaborative ideas that you wanna run by me.

我现在正处于博士毕业后的那种兴奋状态，对合作持开放态度。

I'm I'm in that post PhD glow where I'm I'm open to collaboration.

所以，是的，如果有人想聊天，欢迎给我发邮件。

So, yeah, if people wanna chat, they're welcome to email me.

但就这样。

But yeah.

否则，就联系你吧。

Otherwise, reach out to you.

但我不想把你推到风口浪尖，因为那样人们就会开始联系你，再通过你联系我。

But I don't wanna throw you under the bus, cause then people start contacting you to contact me.

对。

Yeah.

但是，是的。

But yeah.

如果你愿意，我总是很乐意聊耐力、跑步和训练。

If you I'm always happy to speak endurance and running and training.

所以如果有人有问题或者想联系，当然可以联系我，我会很乐意把你介绍给他们。

So if anyone has any questions or they wanna get in touch, of course, contact me and I'll be happy to forward anyone to you.

西蒙，非常感谢。

Simon, thanks a lot.

所有的链接、你的邮箱以及相关的论文都会放在描述里。

All the links and your email and everything and the related papers will also be in the description.

我想感谢你的到来，是的，希望听众们喜欢。

I want to thank you for being here and yeah, I hope that the listeners enjoyed it.

我相信听众们会喜欢的。

I'm sure the listeners enjoyed it.

太好了。

Awesome.

谢谢你邀请我。

Thanks for having me.