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嘿。
Hey.
欢迎回到《绝命毒师》幕后播客。
Welcome back to the Breaking Bad Insider podcast.
我是凯莉·迪克森。
My name is Kelly Dixon.
今天和我一起的，当然还有我的执行制片人文斯·吉利根。
I'm here today with, of course, my executive producer, Vince Gilligan.
你好。
Hello.
我们的联合执行制片人米歇尔·麦克拉伦。
Our co executive producer, Michelle McLaren.
你好。
Hello.
今天我们还有一位非常特别的嘉宾。
And we have a really special guest today.
我们今天请到了鲍勃·奥登科克。
We have Bob Odenkirk in the house.
嗨，大家好。
Hi, you guys.
我不是索尔·古德曼。
I'm not Saul Goodman.
我是鲍勃·奥登科克。
I'm Bob Odenkirk.
我演的是一个角色。
I play a character.
你像他吗？
Are you like him?
人们总问我。
People ask me.
前几天有人问我，是不是一直有人找你咨询法律问题？
Somebody asked me the other day, do people have been people been asking you for legal advice?
真的有人这么问吗？
Is have they?
没有。
No.
天哪，别这样。
I on, man.
拜托，各位。
Please, everyone.
你们明白的。
You understand.
对吧？
Right?
电视里都是假的。
The TV is not real.
我们只是在演戏。
We're pretending.
都是假的。
It's pretend.
你看到的一切。
Everything you see.
索尔，我不确定我会想要法律建议。
I'm not sure I'd want legal advice Sol.
扮演奥普拉·温弗瑞的那个女人是个矮个子白人女士，她穿上那套衣服，你知道的，拜托。
The woman who plays Oprah Winfrey is a short white lady, who she puts that outfit on and, you know, come on.
那套衣服挺特别的。
That's quite an outfit.
我喜欢。
I like it.
扮演安德森·库珀的那个人，有两个人扮演安德森·库珀。
The guy who plays Anderson Cooper, there's two people who play Anderson Cooper.
如果你看得够多，你大概能分辨出是哪个家伙在演，是拉斯蒂还是泰德。
I can if you watch enough, you can kinda tell which guy is doing it, Rusty or Ted.
Rusty总是演得像这是个重要新闻一样。
Rusty is always he plays it like this is an important story.
Ted总是演得更轻松一些，但不管怎样，重点是电视上的一切都是假的。
Ted always makes it more light and but anyways, the point is all of TV is fake.
全都是假的。
All of it.
除了总统。
Except for the president.
对。
Yeah.
天哪。
Oh my god.
哦，Bob，你知道吗？
Oh, Bob, you know what?
有意思，你今天能来我真的很高兴，因为你知道，我知道Vince是你的超级粉丝。
Funny, I'm really glad you're you're here today because, you know, I know that Vince is such a huge fan of yours.
哎呀。
Oh, man.
你知道吗，很多人问我怎么得到这份工作的，我说你可能已经读过了。
You know, people have been asking me how I got this job and I've said you've probably read it.
我不知道你是否读过所有关于这个节目的采访。
I don't know if you read every interview that's done about the show.
但我说，我不知道Vince是怎么认识我的，但我想你是《Mister Show》的粉丝。
But I go, I don't know how Vince knows me, but I guess you were a fan of mister show.
抱歉，我之前不知道。
I'm sorry because I didn't know that.
我们没怎么聊过这个，然后我把《Mister Show》的DVD给了你。
We didn't really talk about it and then I gave you the DVDs of mister show.
没有。
No.
没有。
No.
但我
But I
然后几个星期后，你就说，嘿，我们看了那些DVD。
And and then a few weeks later, you were like, hey, we've been watching those DVDs.
真的很有趣。
That's really funny.
那时候我就想，哇。
And that's when I thought, wow.
嗯，如果你不是通过《Mr. Show》认识我的，那你是怎么认识我的？
Well, if you didn't know me on mister show, how did you know me?
但但我
But but I
我确实认识。
I did.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
好。
Okay.
我很喜欢你
I loved you
在《Mister Show》里，但那些DVD真是太好了，因为我在家全都有。
on mister show, but the DVDs were such a great treat because I've got them all at home.
但这是我们为那个世界版准备的套餐，而且
But this was our this was our package for the the word version and
我们让你慢下来了。
we slowed you down.
这，这
It it
这让我们慢下来了
it slowed us down a
一点点。
little bit.
第八到第十集如果有任何不足，你可以怪我。不过我也一直跟人说，你肯定看过我演的《拉里·桑德斯秀》，因为那个角色跟索尔最像。
You can blame me for any weaknesses in episodes eight through 10 or know, you know, also, but I I always told people I think you must have seen me do the Larry Sanders show because character is the closest to Saul.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得，我觉得不是。
I think I think No.
我超爱《拉里·桑德斯秀》。
I love Larry Sanders.
《拉里·桑德斯秀》和《Mr. Show》是HBO史上最棒的两个节目。
Larry Sanders and mister show are two of the greatest things ever on HBO.
我两个都特别喜欢。
I love love both of them.
现在每次打开HBO，我都会觉得这两个节目已经不在了。
And I feel the I feel I feel their passing every time I turn on HBO now.
真希望他们还在播。
I wish I wish I wish they're still on.
不过，很高兴这次能请到你。
Although, I'm glad we got you for this.
所以，是的。
So Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
天哪，我太幸运了。
Boy, I'm so lucky.
我常跟人说，你知道，能接演这样的角色，而且这部剧让这么多人兴奋，还有这么忠实的观众，质量又这么高，真的很难得。
I always tell people, you know, I mean, just how often you get to step in to some, but it's a great role and a show that just got so many people excited and and such a hardcore audience and has such a high level of quality.
我是说，通常，你知道，你和我都花很多时间在创作自己的项目上。
I mean, usually, you you you know, you you and I both spend a lot of time generating our own projects.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Yeah.
但是有人邀请你上船，而且这艘船已经启航了，还这么漂亮，那真是太棒了。
But for someone to invite you on board when the ship has sailed and it's such a gorgeous ship.
太棒了。
That's amazing.
你知道，自从去年的播客之后，我们聊了一点你是怎么得到鲍勃这个角色的。
Since, you know, last year's podcast, we talked a little bit about how we got how you got Bob.
对。
Yeah.
但鲍勃当时不在。
But Bob wasn't here.
但你能告诉我们，在编剧室里，当你们在构思索尔·古德曼的时候，具体是怎么发生的吗？我记得去年你跟我提过一点，比如头发那些事。
But can you tell us, like, how would did that go down, like, in the writers room when you were trying to think about Saul Goodman and I remember you telling me a little bit last year about how, you know, the hair and all that kind of stuff.
所以
So
哦，头发啊，鲍勃可以聊这个，但头发绝对是鲍勃的主意。
Oh, the hair and and and Bob can talk about that, but the hair is definitely Bob's idea.
而且我得说，你现实中的头发看起来比剧里好看多了。
And I have to say your hair in in real life looks so much better than size does.
你没有那种前面是商务、后面是派对的感觉。
You don't have the business in front party in the back.
嗯，你一告诉我这个角色是什么样，我们就聊得很开心，因为首先，事情是这样的：我的经纪人打电话给我，说他们要给你这个角色，你真应该接下。
Well, as soon as you told me what this guy was, well, the conversation was great because first of all, how it happened was my agent called me and he said, they're gonna offer you this role and you really should take it.
这种角色是那种能拿艾美奖的角色。
It this is the kind of role that people win Emmys for.
然后我就说，好吧，行吧。
And I go, well, you know, okay.
挺好的。
Great.
是《绝命毒师》的。
It's for Breaking Bad.
我说，好吧，我还没看过，但当然，我见过那些广告牌什么的。
And I go, well, I haven't seen it, but I, of course, I'd seen the bill boards and stuff.
然后我说，让我先查一下。
And I I said, let me just check on it.
然后我就随便给一个朋友打了个电话，一个偶尔一起写作的哥们，他叫里德·哈里森。
And I I just literally randomly called a friend, a guy I write with occasionally, and Reed Harrison is his name.
我就想，我打给两三个人问问，你看过这个吗？
And I just I thought I'll call two or three people and say, have seen it?
你觉得怎么样？
What do you think of it?
他说，天哪。
And he goes, oh my god.
这是电视上最好的节目。
That's the best show on TV.
哇，真的吗。
Oh, wow.
他说，我每周都等不及要看那个节目。
He goes, I can't wait for that thing every week.
你知道吗，你非做不可。
You know, you've gotta do it.
天哪。
Oh, man.
你在开玩笑吧。
You're kidding me.
然后就这样了。
And so that was it.
对我来说这就够了。
That was enough for me.
我只需要听到这个。
That's all I needed to hear.
然后我们俩聊了聊，你说他的名字叫索尔·古德曼。
And and then you and I spoke, and you said his name is Saul Goodman.
我一边听一边想，我该不该说点什么？
And I'm listening, and I'm like, should I say something or not?
我就说，你看。
I go, look.
文斯，我不是犹太人。
You know, Vince, I'm not Jewish.
你知道吗？
You know?
我老婆是。
My wife is.
我的孩子们也算是，但我不算。
My kids are, sort of, you know, but I'm not Jewish.
他说，哦，没关系。
And he goes, oh, that's alright.
他也不是犹太人。
He's not Jewish either.
我说，因为我是爱尔兰人。
I go, because I'm Irish.
他说，哦，那挺好的。
He goes, oh, good.
他也是爱尔兰人。
He's Irish too.
我的意思是，我有一半爱尔兰血统。
I mean, I'm half Irish.
然后他说，他取那个名字就是为了给那哥们儿留下好印象。
And and he goes, he just took that name, you know, to to impress the homeboy.
对。
Yes.
你懂吧？
You know?
对。
Yes.
那太棒了。
That was awesome.
然后你一开始描述那个角色的时候，我就说，我已经知道发型是什么了。
And then right away, when you were describing the character, I go, I already know what the hair is.
我们第一次说的时候，我就想要一个打理过的鲻鱼头。
That was on our first said, I want a a mullet that's cleaned up.
不是那种你常见的完全鲻鱼头，但看起来有点像，再加上一个侧分。
It's not a total mullet like you're used to, but it's kinda really looks and and a comb over.
侧分加鲻鱼头，因为这家伙，嗯，侧分头没人会那么弄。
A comb over with a mullet because this guy well, the comb over isn't anybody would do that.
对吧？
Right?
当然。
Sure.
作为一个中年律师。
As a as a middle aged lawyer.
但我觉得那个鲻鱼头，你大概也看到了，就是头发比较长。
But I think the mullet, which you kinda see are you know, it's just long.
其实不算是完整的鲻鱼头。
It's not really a full mullet.
算是半个鲻鱼头。
It's a half mullet.
任何理发师都会说，你管那叫鲻鱼头？
Any barber would say, why are you calling that a mullet?
别闹了。
Come on.
就是半个鲻鱼头。
It's a half mullet.
你知道，那就像是他还年轻。
You know, that's like he's young.
那时候你就会想，我还年轻呢。
That's when you go, I'm still young.
我还是，还是
I'm still still
还是我
still I
还有那股劲儿。
still got it.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
还是，对。
Still and yeah.
有个这样的形象挺有意思的。
It's fun to have a character.
当你把那些行头都穿上，你就知道这个角色是什么样了，你知道吗。
It helps you know the character when you put on all that stuff, you know.
但我就是，它突然就出现在我脑子里，然后
But I it's it just popped into my head and
那你可找到知音了，因为布莱恩·科兰斯顿也遇到过同样的事。
Well, it's you're in good company because the same thing happened with Bryan Cranston.
他接下那个角色的时候来找我，说：我脑子里已经有个画面了，就是这家伙的发型。
He came to me when he accepted the part and he said, I've got an image in my head of this guy's hair.
他还说，我觉得这家伙的体重应该在一百七十八到一百七十九磅之间。
He also said, I think this guy should be between a hundred and seventy eight and a hundred and seventy nine pounds.
我当时就，我没说话，只是默默点头，但心里想，结果他真的一分不差。
And I was like I I didn't say I was just I was nodding a grimly, but I was like and he hit it exactly.
他非常了解自己的身体。
He he knew he he knows his body enough.
他知道自己什么时候看起来有点胖。
He knows when he's looking a little fleshy.
他想要肚子中间有点软软的、肉肉的感觉。
He wanted he wanted to be a little doughy through the middle.
而且他想要，布莱恩想要，用他自己的话说，上嘴唇上留一条死毛毛虫。
And he wanted this Brian wanted this, as he put it, this dead caterpillar on his upper lip.
对。
Yeah.
所以你看，你和克兰斯顿先生一样，都是这么想的。
And he so you know, but I I so you're in good company along with mister Cranston there.
但这就是那种非常视觉化的想法，从多个角度去接近这个角色。
But it's it this idea of seeing of being this very visual idea of of approaching the character for a number of ways.
其中之一就是视觉上。
One of them being visually.
比如看到头发，看到那个造型。
One of them seeing the hair, seeing the look.
我觉得这很有意思。
I think that's very interesting.
在布莱恩和你之前，我确实没怎么遇到过这种想法，我觉得这是一种很棒的方式。
I hadn't really come upon that before before Brian and you, and I think that's a great way of doing it.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我是说，这些东西会突然出现在你脑海里。
I mean, those things pop into your head.
然后还有，你知道的，他们走路的样子。
And then there's, you know, how they walk.
还有他穿衣服的方式，对。
One of the one of the things that how he dresses Yeah.
还有一件事，当你把剧本发给我，我读了之后，我从来没演过台词那么多的角色。
One of the things that also when you then sent me the script and I read it and I've never had that many lines in anything.
对。
Yeah.
而且我演过的大部分作品都是我自己写的。
And I've written most of the stuff I've done.
我可能在一些《Mr. Show》的剧集里有过那么多台词，但从来没有像这样连续不断的。
I probably had there were a few mister show episodes where I probably had that much, but never really those runs.
我是说，你写那些长篇大论，你知道，当索尔在绕着他的逻辑试图说服别人去某个地方的时候。
I mean, you write those speeches and those, you know, when when when when Saul is, like, winding his way through his logic trying to get somebody to go somewhere.
对。
Yeah.
然后有时候管用，有时候不管用，他得随机应变，推动他们往他想要的方向走。
And it works and then it doesn't work and he has to kinda sculpt the moment and push them where he needs them to go.
对。
Yeah.
我从来没经历过那种情况。
I've never had that kind of thing.
所以那很新鲜，读起来也很有意思，而且也是个挑战，你知道，我该怎么让这个角色有趣呢？
So that was new, and it was neat to read it, and it was a challenge too and and to go, you know, how do I make this guy interesting?
所以你想听那些话，你想跟着他走，听他讲的那个故事。
So you wanna hear all of that talk, and that you wanna go on that journey, that story that he's telling.
你知道吗？
You know?
所以这对我来说，更多的是表演上的功夫。
So I it was a lot of, more acting work.
我想我在采访里也说过这个。
I think I've said I said this in interviews.
我从来没演过这样一个角色，让我这么专注，我会说，好。
I've never done a part where I focus so much on it, where I said, okay.
现在我要全力以赴。
Now I'm gonna do that.
我要把所有精力都放在琢磨这个角色上，对。
I'm gonna take all my energy and just think about this guy Yeah.
还有他是谁。
And who he is.
对。
Yeah.
我要试着找到他。
I'm gonna try to find him.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我大部分表演经历都挺轻松的，基本上就是写作的附属品。
Most most of performing I've done has been kinda, like, fun and just kinda secondary to writing.
我的意思是，你在《Mr. Show》里看到我演什么的时候，说实话，我脑子里想的是摄像机在哪儿，怎么剪辑。
I mean, when you see me on mister show doing anything, believe me, I'm thinking about where the cameras are and how we're gonna cut it.
而且我从来不只是单纯在演戏。
And I'm I'm never just acting.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以这对我来说很棒，因为它的规模让我觉得，好吧。
So this was great for me because the size of it made me go, okay.
我就专心做这件事。
I'm just gonna do this.
我就专注于这个角色，全力以赴，在这里做一个演员。
I'm just gonna focus on this guy and just give it give it my all, and I'm gonna be an actor here.
这让我开始像演员一样思考，考虑那些所有的事情。
And it made started making me think like an actor and think about all those things and everything.
他走路的样子，他坐的样子，你知道，所有这些。
The way he walks, the way he sits, you know, it all
我有个问题想问你。
I've got a question to that.
你，索尔，我不知道是不是你，但索尔说话时，
You Saul and I don't know if it's all or you but saw talks a
手部动作很多。
lot with his hands.
对。
Yeah.
所以这是有意识的选择吗？因为我有幸和你作为导演合作过，你准备得极其充分，而且非常专注。
So was that it was that a conscious choice because I've I've had the pleasure of of working with you as a director and you were unbelievably well prepared and focused.
我也想说同样的话。
I've got the same shout out to give.
对。
Yeah.
确实如此。
It's absolutely true.
我现在也有幸和他合作过。
I've been lucky enough to do it now too.
对。
Yeah.
你准备得太充分了。
You were so prepared.
我就是特别喜欢。
I just love it.
太棒了。
It's fantastic.
而且有一件特别神奇的事，凯利，这个你可以说说。
And one of the amazing things is, and Kelly, you can speak to this.
我们进剪辑室的时候
We get into the editing room
对。
Yeah.
你们的手势完全一致。
And your hands match.
我是说，你们说话的时候都在用手比划。
I mean, they are you are talking with your hands.
刚开始跟你合作的时候，你会想，天哪。
And when you first start working with you, you're thinking, oh god.
到了第三第四条的时候，你就会想，希望这次能成。
When you get into take three four, it's like, I hope this is gonna work.
是的。
Is.
就像是在说，你简直无可挑剔。
It's like saying it's you are it's impeccable.
太棒了。
It's great.
那这是有意的选择，还是你天生的？
So was that a choice or is that you
嗯，你知道，不管是发型还是走路的样子什么的。
Well, you know, not like, whether it's the hair or or the the walk or whatever.
其实从来都不是刻意为之的。
I mean, it's not ever really conscious.
对吧？
Right?
总是有一种潜意识的灵感让你觉得，他应该这么做。
It's always like there's a subconscious inspiration that makes you go, I he should do this.
所以我也说不准。
So I don't know.
就是这样。
That's what it is.
我的意思是，他是个魔术师。
I mean, he's a magician.
他想让你看这边。
He wants you looking over here.
他想
He wants
让你看那边。
you looking over there.
他不想让你知道——我是说，当你分析索尔在做什么的时候，如果你看那些对话，问他在干什么，你会发现他就像个魔术师一样在运作。
He doesn't want you know, I I mean, when you break down what Saul's doing, if you look at the dialogue and you ask what is he doing, you know, he's trying he's working like a magician, you know.
他是在想办法分散大家的注意力。
He's trying to get people distracted.
他一直在给他们灌输这个。
He's he's trying to feed them this.
如果他们不往那边走，他就给他们灌输那个。
And if they don't go down that way, he he feeds them this.
他就是在引导他们走上他想要他们走的那条路。
And they he's just looking for them to go down the road he wants them to go down.
对。
Yeah.
所以我想这大概就是从那来的。
And so I guess it probably came from that.
你明白吗？
You know?
而且我也说过这个。
And and I've talked about this too.
你知道吗？
You know?
我确实演罗伯特·埃文斯。
I I do Robert Evans.
我演那个角色。
I do the character.
那只是件好玩的事。
That's just sort of a fun thing to do.
我演索尔的时候不会模仿罗伯特·埃文斯，但有一次我确实照着剧本那么做了。
I don't do a Robert Evans impersonation when I do Saul, but I do do it once with the script.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
因为，你知道，埃文斯，你知道我说的是谁。
Because, you know, Evans you know who I'm talking about.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
对。
Yeah.
那个
The
制片人
producer of
《唐人街》。
Chinatown.
它一直
It stays
在电影里。
in the picture.
这些都是
These are all
刚和艾伦·麦格劳结婚。
just Married to Alan McGraw.
对。
Yeah.
当我看着它的时候，我在想，谁是我最享受、能聊得这么开心的人呢？
The when I was looking at it and I thought, who's the person who I most enjoy I could enjoy talking this much.
然后我想到了罗伯特·埃文斯，他多有趣啊，我还模仿他。
And I thought about Robert Evans, how much fun he is, and I do an impersonation.
我在《政治不正确》节目上模仿过。
I've done it on politically incorrect.
你看过吗？
Have you ever seen it?
我没在《政治不正确》上看过。
I haven't seen it on politically incorrect.
在YouTube上。
On YouTube.
好的。
Alright.
不错。
Cool.
我打算上YouTube看看我在《政治不正确》上的表现。
I'm gonna try YouTube and watch me on politically incorrect.
我我我演过罗伯特·埃文斯扮演上帝。
I I I did Robert Evans as God.
你可能在《怪胎秀》里看过那个。
You saw that in mister show maybe.
我演罗伯特·埃文斯扮演上帝。
I do Robert Evans as God.
我不确定我有没有看过你
I don't know that I've ever seen you
你能模仿我吗
do can you do I
不想让你为难。
don't wanna put you on the spot.
天哪，我的儿子，我爱你。
Jesus, my son, I love you.
你让我很生气。
You made me mad.
你并不总是按我说的做，但我得尊重你。
You didn't always do what I asked, but I gotta respect you.
不知道十字架是不是必要的，但确实管用。
Don't know if the cross was necessary, but it sure did the trick.
我会再做一次吗？
Would I do it again?
当然会。
Heck yeah.
我做得对吗？
Did I do it right?
谁知道呢？
Who knew?
这事儿有没有让我栽跟头？
Did it bite me in the ass?
栽得可狠了。
Hard.
我吸取教训了吗？
Did I learn my lesson?
下辈子吧。
Not in a million years.
我会有别的选择吗？
Would I have it any other way?
绝不可能。
No way.
你知道吗，就是那种，什么鬼？
You know, it's just like, what?
我是说，你要去哪儿？
I mean, where are you going?
你要去哪儿？
Where are you going?
但听起来真的很有意思。
But it's so much fun to listen to.
圣诞节。
Christmas.
而且，你知道还有什么吗？
And and you know what else?
他的声音里就是有那么多的节奏感和旋律感。
He just has so much rhythm and and melody in his voice.
然后他往上走，然后又往下走。
And then he goes up, and then he goes down.
然后他……这真的很神奇，你根本不会觉得单调。
And then he and and it's just this amazing thing that you can't sort of it never becomes monotonous.
总是像一首歌。
It's always a song.
对。
Yeah.
你知道吗？
You know?
所以从这个角度看，看着它上去，又下来，想想这些事情。
So to look at it that way and see it go up, but take it go down and and and and think about those kinds of things.
然后我不知道那些手势。
And then I don't know the hand movements.
我的意思是，这其实来自于试图向别人推销某样东西。
I mean, and it just comes from trying to sell somebody on something.
对。
Yeah.
有道理。
That makes sense.
Popeil有点像大西洋城木板路那种加拿大风格。
Popeil kinda that Atlantic City Boardwalk Canada.
别看我的嘴唇。
Don't watch my lips.
别看我的嘴唇。
Don't watch my lips.
识别参考。
Recognition reference.
如果你不看我的嘴唇，你就听不太清楚。
If you don't watch my lips, you won't hear so clearly.
你刚到片场的时候，你知道片场会是什么样子吗？
When you first got to the set, I mean, did you know what the set was gonna look like when you first
到片场？
got set?
嗯，其实在我拍第一场戏之前，他们带我走了一遍。
Well, I mean, they walked me through it before I did the first scene that I acted in it.
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我们之所以这样，是因为他们对此非常自豪，而且他们刚刚完成制作，或者正在完成组装。
We because they were very proud of it, and they had just finished making it or they were finishing putting it together.
而且，我是说，那些柱子和……真是令人惊叹。
And, I mean, it's a knock out that those pillars and
但那对你有帮助吗？
Did it help you though?
那对你有帮助吗？
Did it help with the
哦，我是说，是的。
whole Oh, I mean, yeah.
当然，这正好迎合了索尔的表演风格。
It sure it feeds into Saul's showmanship.
你知道吗？
You know?
他站在舞台上。
He's on a stage.
那是个真正的舞台。
That's a real stage.
确实。
It is.
是他为自己搭的。
It for himself.
你
Did you
知道他们会在等候室播放那种爱国音乐吗？
know that they were gonna pump in this patriotic music from the waiting room?
还是说
Or
哦，不知道。
Oh, no.
不知道。
No.
我之前不知道。
I didn't know that.
所以事情就这样发生了。
So that happened.
你知道我喜欢什么吗？
You know what I like?
就是那个等候室和他办公室的对比。
The juxtaposition of that waiting room with his office.
我是说，那个等候室是世界上最悲伤的地方。
I mean, that waiting room is the saddest room on earth.
你懂我的意思吗？
You know what I mean?
然后他的办公室，就像是他想象中的史密森尼博物馆或者椭圆形办公室的俗气版本。
And then his office is, like, just a cheesy version of a of the Smithsonian in his mind or something or the Oval Office.
然后你现在
And now you
然后，当然，办公室里堆满了各种东西，你把这些乱七八糟的东西和一堆他从来没读过的法律书堆在那儿，就把效果全毁了。
see And then, of course, it's cluttered with all kinds of you ruin the effect by cluttering it with all your crap and too many law books that he's never read.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Right.
那些书就是摆设，对吧？
They're just fronts, aren't they?
对，就是。
They're Yeah.
他连书上的包装纸都没撕掉。
He still has the wrappers on them.
我
I
喜欢这样。
like that.
对。
Yeah.
不过你知道吗？
You know what though?
话虽这么说，我觉得索尔·古德曼，尽管他那些小伎俩什么的，我觉得他其实是个好律师。
Having said that, I think Saul Goodman, despite his his shysterism and and whatnot, I think he actually is a good lawyer.
哦，我觉得他是个聪明人。
Oh, I think he's a smart guy.
而且他的特点之一就是，在必要的时候，故意让别人低估他。
And part of his thing is is when when necessary, letting people underestimate him.
我很喜欢，我很喜欢你在第三季第二集里的那场戏，就是你和那个更……
I love I love that scene you did three zero two when you're working with the the more
体面的。
Dignified.
体面的。
Dignified.
俱乐部律师。
Club lawyer.
我抓住他这一点，因为我……
And I I get him on it because I
哦，那真是太棒了。
Oh, that's a great
场景。
scene.
知道吗，那个场景效果真的很好。
Know it's it it really played well.
是哪一集？
Which one
是哪一集？
is it?
真的很棒。
It's really great.
什么时候？
When?
就是我知道那个病人家里有个制毒实验室的那个地方。
It's where I know there's a met there was a meth lab in the patient.
对。
Yeah.
我知道。
I know.
是304号。
Was 304.
哦，对。
Oh, yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
不是4号。
It wasn't 4.
是302号。
It was 302.
听众听了都会说，天哪。
People listening are like, Jesus.
他们甚至把这段
They even make this
节目
show.
连在一起，当它们
Run together when they
连在一起的时候。
run together.
对。
Yeah.
你确定是302吗？
Are you sure it was 302?
还是说，是
Or It was it
是302。
was 302.
是302。
It was 302.
是3
Was 3
因为那是彼得·古尔德写的，而彼得·古尔德，我的一位优秀编剧，就是去年2008年2月最初创造你这个角色的人。
Because Peter Gould wrote it, and Peter Gould, one of my wonderful writers, is the guy who created your character in the first place last year in 02/2008.
2008年2月。
02/2008.
风骚律师。
Better call Saul.
得好好夸夸彼得。
Gotta give Peter a lot of props.
而且，是的，我很高兴你能欣赏我，觉得我准备得很充分。
And, yeah, I I'm so it's so nice that you appreciate and think that I'm prepared.
但跟你说实话，兄弟。
But I'll tell you, man.
我朋友说你应该上这个节目，然后我说，那就来吧。
After my friend said you should do the show and you and I said, let's do it.
然后呢，
And then
我就拿到了这个节目。
I got the show.
我不是直接去那儿看看而已。
I didn't just show up there and I watched it.
我当时就想，天哪。
I went, oh my god.
这玩意儿是真的，兄弟。
This thing's for real, man.
糟糕。
Crap.
而且相信我，很多年前我在《周六夜现场》当编剧，夏天在芝加哥的第二城做单人秀。
I and believe me, there was many years ago when I was a writer on Saturday Night Live and I was doing a one man show in Chicago in the summers in in 2nd City.
我每年夏天都会在第二城做某种形式的演出。
I would do a Second City show of some type every summer.
对。
Right.
我自己的秀，什么的，在第二城，随便吧。
My own show, whatever, at Second City, whatever.
我被误认成别人了。
I was mistaken for someone else.
他们叫我去洛杉矶试镜。
They they called me in for an audition in LA.
对。
Right.
我当时在亚利桑那州参加我哥哥的婚礼。
I was at my brother's wedding in Arizona.
所以我和家人在一起，你懂的，然后我接到了经纪人的电话。
So I'm with the family, you know, and I get a call from my agent.
他说，你现在必须马上来洛杉矶。
He goes, you gotta come to LA right now.
他们想让你主持一个节目。
They want you to host a show.
我就问，为什么？
And I go, why?
主持什么节目，为什么？
Host center and why?
不。
No.
主持一个节目。
Host a show.
它
It
是一个新节目。
was a new show.
好的。
Okay.
行。
Alright.
然后我说，我觉得不行。
And I go, I don't think so.
他们为什么要找我？
Why would they?
他说，他们看过你的表演。
He goes, they've seen you.
他们看过你的录像。
They've seen to tape you.
他们想要你。
They want you.
你就是那个人选。
You're the man.
你得来开个会。
You gotta come in for a meeting.
我一直跟他争。
And I kept arguing with him.
我说，他们怎么会看过我？
I'm like, why would they have seen me?
我那时候只演过舞台剧，你知道的，然后他说，不知道。
I've just done theater, you know, and and and he goes, don't know.
他们觉得你就是他们要找的人，就是你了。
They that you're their man, you're it.
我当时就想，不太可能吧。
And I was like, I don't think so.
我是说，我确实想过，可能有人录了我那场戏剧演出，然后可能把录像带给了别人。
I mean, I did think maybe somebody had I think I'd taped my one theater show and possibly that, you know, somebody had handed a tape to someone else.
所以我就离开了婚礼。
So so I left the wedding.
其实我参加了婚礼，但没跟家人待在一起。
I mean, I stayed for the wedding, but I didn't hang out with my family.
我飞去了洛杉矶。
I flew to LA.
我去了福克斯公司对面的那个乡村俱乐部。
I went to the country club across from Fox.
那是哪个？
Which one is that?
那是兰乔公园。
That's Rancho Park.
不是。
No.
不是兰乔。
The Rancho No.
是希尔克雷斯特，希尔克雷斯特。
Hill Hillcrest Hillcrest.
我当时在一个房间里。
I was in a room.
对。
Yeah.
就我，还有那两个家伙，没别人，一堆桌子，另一桌是杰克·尼科尔森和他的两个跟班。
Me, these two guys, no one else, bunch of tables, other table, Jack Nicholson and two of his cronies.
哇。
Wow.
整个地方就这些人。
That's the only people in this
房间。
room.
哇。
Wow.
然后我就坐下来跟他们聊了大概一个小时。
And I sit down and talk to these guys for, you know, an hour.
然后我穿过马路去福克斯那边，看了下台词。
And then I go across the street to Fox and I read the sides.
感觉就像是一个有点小幽默、带点刻薄的那种节目的主持人。
And it's like a host for this kind of marginally funny, you know, snarky show.
对。
Right.
其实我并没有那么喜欢，但我还是问，你们想让我在镜头前做点什么吗？
And I I didn't like it that much, but I didn't I was like, do you want me to do something on camera?
你知道，我猜是吧。
You know, I I guess.
对。
Yeah.
然后我离开后回去，我跟我的经纪人说了，我就说，你确定是我吗？
And and I left and went back and I told my agent, I just I are you sure it was me?
他们是在哪里看到我的？
What what did they see me in?
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
然后我最后没得到那份工作。
And then I I didn't get the job.
几年后，其中一个人在一个派对上找到我。
And years later, one of those guys came to me at a party.
对。
Yeah.
其中一个
One of
制片人走过来对我说，我们搞错了。
the producers and he goes, we screwed up.
我们当时看到的不是你。
You were not the guy we'd seen.
我说，哥们儿，我早就知道了。
And I said, dude, I knew that.
那你当时怎么不承认呢？
Why didn't you cop to it then?
所以我跟你说
So I'm telling you
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我回想起那件事，当时我就想，不知道他是否知道我们是谁。不，我们知道的。
I flash back on that with this, where I was like, I wonder if he knows who we No.
我们知道的。
We we knew.
我们当然知道。
We definitely knew.
我们当然知道，而且我们非常自豪和高兴能有你，兄弟。
We definitely We definitely and we could not be more proud and happy to have you, man.
你做得太
You do such a
好了。
great job.
我看了那些录像。
Watched the tapes.
我看了你寄给我的DVD，然后我就想，我不能在片场出现却对自己的台词不熟。
I watched the DVDs that you'd sent me, and it made me go, I'm I cannot show up on this set not knowing my shit.
你知道，布莱恩就是那种演员，他特别真实，你知道吗？
And you know, Brian Brian is one of those actors, like, he's such the real deal, you know?
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
And yeah.
你不想跟那样的人同台，却拿出那种廉价、敷衍的表演。
You don't wanna get in a room with somebody doing that and and bring some kinda cheap half assed version of performance to it.
你得全力以赴，因为，对。
You wanna bring everything you got because Yeah.
看到那样的人，你会觉得那有点魔力。
You see a guy like that, there's some kind of magic to that.
对吧？
Right?
嗯。
Mhmm.
我是说，我这辈子也就见过几次，不多。
I mean, I've seen it a few other times in my life, not too many.
对。
Yeah.
你知道吗？
You know?
我是说，我跟很多优秀的演员合作过，但很多人其实是在卖自己的个性。
I mean, I've been with a lot of great performers and but a lot of people are kinda selling their personality.
他们是在放大自己的个性，可能是在表演自己个性中那些很有趣、很讨喜的部分。
They're kinda amplifying their personality and maybe playing parts of their personality that are really fun and entertaining to to watch.
而真正的表演是另一回事。
And then acting can be a different thing.
我觉得布莱恩做的是真正的表演。
I think what Brian's doing is acting.
他不像沃尔特·怀特。
He's not like Walter White.
对。
No.
你知道吗？
You know?
对。
No.
就他本身的能量来说，我觉得他不像沃尔特·怀特。
In his natural energy, I don't think he's like Walter White.
他只是把自己的能量全部投入到这个角色里。
And he just takes his energy and puts it all into this place.
是的。
Yes.
但我得说，你和索尔·古德曼也是一样的。
But I have to say it's the same with with you and and Saul Goodman.
你们是非常不同的人，而你，你，你，你挺身而出，伙计。
You were very different people, and you you were you were you you rise to the occasion, man.
但你说得对。
But you're right.
布莱恩为编剧们树立了很高的标准和很好的榜样。
Brian sets a a high bar and a good example for for the writers as well.
他太出色了，我们都不想给他任何烂角色，你懂的，烂角色来演。
He is so good that we don't wanna give him any crap, you know, crap to to to portray.
我们希望剧本能配得上他。
We want we want the writing to be up to snuff.
我们希望这部剧能配得上他，也配得上亚伦·保罗、安娜·冈、迪恩·莫里斯、贝琪·布兰特。
We want the show to be up to snuff for him and for Aaron Paul and Anna Gunn, Dean Morris, Betsy Brown.
我们有这么好的演员阵容，RJ·米特，还有这么出色的全体演员。
We have such an RJ Middie with such a fine fine ensemble cast.
我为此感到无比自豪。
I could not be more proud of it.
而你从第一天起就一下子爆发了。
And you you just boom from that day one.
你很快就融入了，我们真的很幸运能拥有你。
You fit right in and we're just so lucky to have you.
我很高兴。
I'm so glad.
你知道，人们问我，他们是不是一开始就打算让索尔留下来？
I you know, people ask me, did did they plan on keeping Saul around?
我说，我不知道。
And I said, I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know.
好像是在前三集还是前四集的时候，我们才谈到这件事。
It seemed like the first one was three or four episodes was when you when we talked about it.
你知道，到底发生了什么？
You know What what happened?
嗯，你知道，拍电视剧的时候，我们总是会……怎么说呢，不想把话说死。
Well, you know, the kinda it it it's a we we we you know, anytime you're doing a TV show, you you you I would don't wanna say hedge your bets.
这个说法可能不太准确，但就是在剧情上留一些后路之类的。
That's not the right expression to use here, but you you sort of build in escape hatches or whatnot story wise.
我的意思是，如果当初没成功，或者你那次在上一季208集首次出现后，觉得体验不好不想再回来，或者因为其他什么原因，比如我们俩谁出了意外，总会有办法的。
And and by that, I mean, if it hadn't worked out, if you had had a bad experience and didn't wanna come back after that episode two zero eight where you appeared for the first time last season, or for whatever reason, it just didn't work out, either you or I or whatever got hit by a bus after episode two, You know, there's always there's always you always have ways.
对，我们一开始想的是三到四集，但我从一开始就希望事情能像现在这样发展。
But, yeah, we thought three or four initially, but my my hope from the beginning was that what's was that what happened hap would happen.
然后索尔能成为沃尔特的长期军师，成为剧中的重要角色。
And then that and that Saul would be a long term consigliere for Walt and and an important part of the show.
你们，我……
You you people I
我不知道，因为这也引出了我上次来编剧室时想问的大问题，你知道，我主要是做编剧的。
don't I don't know because that also goes to my big question when I came in to the Writers Room at the beginning of this last season to visit with you guys was, you know, because I've know, I'm mostly a writer my career, you know.
我觉得这几年我表演的机会多了不少，可能《绝命毒师》让我往那个方向发展了。
I think I've done a lot more performing in the last few years, but and maybe Breaking Bad is leading me into that direction.
也许吧。
Maybe.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我很享受，但你知道，表演这件事是这样的。
I'm enjoying it, but, you know, the thing about performing is this.
如果剧本好，角色好，是的。
If the script is good, if the part is good Yeah.
那是一件很棒的事。
It's a great activity.
对。
Right.
如果角色不好或者写得不好，是的。
If the part is not good or not well written Yeah.
那就不值得花时间去做。
It's not a good thing to spend your time doing.
这有点傻。
It's kinda stupid.
对。
Yeah.
你就像个会说话的摆设，你懂吧。
You're like a prop that talks, you know.
所以这是个很大的前提。
So so that's a pretty big if.
对。
Yeah.
你明白吗？
You know?
我能理解。
I can see that.
不过话说回来，你们做的这种写作，跟我一直擅长的短剧写作完全不一样。
You know, but anyways, the kind of writing that you guys do, I mean, this is like nothing like sketch writing, which is what I has been my stock in trade.
所以对我来说，这真是个谜。
And so it's a mystery to me.
就像另一个世界一样。
It's like a whole another world.
我完全无法想象你们是怎么做到的。
I can't even fathom how you do it.
我真的做不到。
I can't.
这确实有点难，但你知道吗？
It's it's it's tricky, but you know what?
我也不知道。
I don't know.
我对喜剧小品完全没概念，更别说表演了。
I wouldn't have a clue how to do sketch comedy or or not forget obviously, not performing.
我说的是写小品。
I'm talking about writing it.
我，我不会，我，我的脑子，但你知道，你会练出肌肉的。
I I wouldn't I I my brain but, you know, you develop muscles.
写小品喜剧会练出肌肉。
You develop muscles writing sketch comedy.
我写我们现在做的这些内容，也练出了肌肉。
I I've developed muscles writing this this you know, what we're doing.
而且你真的必须每周都能即兴发挥。
And you really do have to be able to wing it week in and week out.
而且，我是说，我有，你知道，我有非常非常棒的编剧。
And also, I mean, I got, you know, I got wonderful, wonderful writers.
我有一个很棒的编剧团队，我们围坐在房间里，我觉得关键是我们对新的可能性保持开放的心态，但我们也尽量保持诚实。
I got a great writing staff, and we sit around in a room, and we we I think the key to it is we keep our minds open to new possibilities, but we try to stay as honest as we can stay.
我的意思是，一切都从角色开始。
And by that, I mean, it all starts with the characters.
一切都始于我们尽可能对每个角色有完整的理解。
It all starts with as complete an understanding of the individual characters as we can possibly muster.
所以我们花了很多很多时间讨论，比如，沃尔特·怀特，这个人是谁？
So we spend hours and hours and hours talking about, alright, Walter White, who is this guy?
他的希望是什么？
What are his hopes?
他的梦想是什么？
What are his dreams?
他害怕什么？
What's he afraid of?
他对自己撒了多少谎？
How much does he lie to himself?
就他而言，他一直在骗自己，你知道的。
In his case, all the time, you know.
他怕什么？
What is he scared of?
他想要什么？
What does he what does he want?
我们也是这么分析他的，我们对索尔也是这么做的。
What is he we do that with all We do that with Saul.
我们对每个人都是这么做的。
We do that with everybody.
我们会试着弄清楚每个人的目标是什么。
And we try to figure out what everybody's goals are.
然后我们尽量保持真实，绝不会为了一个我们预先想好的有趣场景，而硬把角色塞进他们不会做的事情里。
And then we we just try to stay honest and never shoehorn the characters into something that they wouldn't do in order to to fulfill a fun scene that we have preconceived of.
你看，这就是很多剧会走偏的地方。
You you that's that's where shows go.
你可以即兴发挥。
You can wing it.
这有点像——我不是音乐家，但我觉得这有点像自由爵士乐，当它奏效的时候。
It's sort of like it's I'm not a musician, but it feels a little like what I consider free form jazz to be when it's working.
对。
Mhmm.
就是说，你得会玩乐器，也得知道自己要做什么，但同时又得保持足够的灵活性。
It's it's you you gotta know how to play the instruments, and you gotta have a have an idea of what what you're doing there and and, you know but you have to you have to stay loose enough.
但只有真正了解你的角色，你才能保持灵活并且让事情顺利。
But you can only really stay loose and have it work if you really understand your characters.
你不能为了一个有趣的场景，就硬把角色逼到墙角。
And you can't try to jam your characters into a corner just to fulfill a a fun scene.
所以我也说不好。
So it's I don't know.
那这样会不会让你在一年中错过一些时刻，比如你本来打算让某个情节发生，
That does that deprive you of moments through the year where you go, oh, we were gonna have
结果现在就是
this happen
这个角色就是不会那么做。
and now we just it wouldn't work for this guy.
他不会
He wouldn't
不会那么做。
do that.
说得很好。
Very good point.
这让我想起威廉·福克纳那句老话，有时候你得——我大概转述一下——有时候你得忍痛割爱。
It it that the old William Faulkner line about sometimes you have to I'm I'm paraphrasing, but sometimes you have to kill your darlings.
我的意思是，有时候我们会有一些特别钟爱的场景，这些场景会特别酷，观众也会喜欢。
I mean, sometimes we have these darling scenes as it were, these scenes that would be super cool, and the audience would dig.
但如果我们诚实一点，坚强一点——有时候坚强很难，因为你知道，你总想抓住眼前的好处。
But if we're being honest and we're being strong and sometimes it's hard to be strong because you, you know, you wanna take the bird in hand.
你总想保留那个超酷的场景，然后说，他这么做是因为……我也不知道。
You wanna take the super cool scene and you say, he did it because I don't know.
我们以后再说吧。
We'll make it up later.
你懂吧？
You know?
但你可以做得更多。
But more you can.
我的意思是，我有时也会动摇，但这就是为什么我需要我的编剧们帮我保持诚实，说，你知道，这有点扯淡。
I mean, then and I and I'm I I weaken from time to time, but that's why I need my writers to help keep me honest to say, you know, this is kinda bullshit.
我们必须有充分的理由让沃尔特、索尔或杰西，或者
You gotta we gotta have a good reason for having Walt or Saul or Jesse or
对。
Right.
斯凯勒，不管是谁，去做这件事，才能让我们拍这场戏。
Skyler, whoever do this thing that allows us to do this scene.
如果我们不能诚实地构建它，我们就得把它删掉。
If we can't build it honestly, we gotta get rid of it.
所以，对。
So Right.
天哪，那太难了。
God, that's hard.
不过我有个问题，正好跟你们聊的有点关系，因为我特别想问你的一个问题是，你即兴发挥的部分有多少？
I got a question though, sort of along the lines of what you guys are talking about too because I'm my one of my questions to you especially is how much improv that do you do?
我是说，
I mean,
每次都会有人问我这个问题。
we People do ask me that every time.
我完全不即兴发挥。
I don't do any improv.
我完全不即兴发挥。
I don't do any improv.
等一下。
Wait a minute.
因为你最早上的那个节目，不是我的节目。
Because the the show that you were first on, was not my show.
所以我只看到成品。
So I only saw it when it was done.
但是，而且我知道去年我在网上看的时候，那些不会说西班牙语的人一直在问，索尔在说什么？
But when and and I know that when I was looking on the Internet law last year, people were constantly people who did not speak Spanish were constantly said, what is Saul talking about?
事实上，他们现在还在提这件事。
In fact, they bring it up now.
索尔用西班牙语说了什么，当时他们快要，你知道，把你埋在沙漠里，因为你在说，你，你有点——
What was Saul talking about in Spanish when, you know, they were about to, like, bury you in the desert because you were saying, you know, you you sort
对，是的。
of Yeah.
我说了一些，我，我学了，我学了。
I say some I can't I I learned I learned it.
怎么发音来着？
What's phonetically?
好像是关于伊格纳西奥和什么什么的。
It was something about Ignacio and the something.
嗯，我的索尔立刻假设——
Well, I my Saul immediately assumes
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
他可能手底下有一堆客户，这些人都有可能是幕后主使。
That he he probably handles a bunch of clients who could be behind this.
对。
Yeah.
但他可能会根据目前谁最恨他，来做出一个合理的推测。
But he probably makes an educated guess at the one who is most angry at him right now.
当时是
What was
关于
funny about
拉洛
Lalo.
拉洛。
Lalo.
也许是拉洛·希夫林先生。
Maybe mister Lalo Schiffrin.
我刚才在说什么来着
What was I
就是喜欢这个名字。
just love the name.
不过好笑的是，当时啊，我有一些说西班牙语的朋友告诉过我。
What was funny about it though is that at the time, you know, and I have friends who speak Spanish that they told me.
但当时好笑的是，那天晚上有很多人都在说，他在说什么？
But what was funny about it at the time was there were so many people on the night who were saying, what is he saying?
因为他们以为那是正典里的，你懂的。
Because they thought it was canon for, you know.
所以人们就说，哦不，他在说别的事情，这些人是要来抓他的。
And so people were saying, oh no, he's talking about something else and these people are coming to get him.
但今年，因为差不多就是这么回事，虽然不是完全一样，但大家都在说，等等。
But now this year because that that's kind of what is happening, not exactly, but they're saying, wait a minute.
索尔·古德曼去年就说过这个。
Saul Goodman was talking about that last year.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
所以我当时就在想，那是不是即兴发挥的。
And so I was wondering if that was improv.
哦，不。
Oh, no.
我，我不知道。
I didn't I didn't know.
哦，不。
Oh, no.
我花了很多时间用音标去学那段话。
I I spent a lot of time trying to phonetically learn that.
当然，剧组里有很多在阿尔伯克基说西班牙语说得很好的人，他们都帮了我。
And, of course, there were a lot of people working on the show who speak excellent Spanish in Albuquerque, and they all helped me out.
他们都帮我写出来。
They all helped me write it out.
不过，他们之间也有争论，因为西班牙语有不同的方言。
Now, there was some argument amongst them because there's dialects of Spanish.
对。
Yeah.
你知道，所以这就有点麻烦了。
You know, so that kinda created an issue.
两个人为一个他们一辈子都在用的词的发音争论不休。
Two people arguing about how to pronounce a word that they both have used all their lives.
但你也知道，事情就是这样。
But you know how that goes.
你想聊聊那天的事吗？
You wanna talk about that day?
那是不是最艰难的一天，还是最棒的一天？
Wouldn't that that was the Well, was the toughest single day favorite
风很大，也是我人生中最难忘的时刻之一。
windy and Times of my life.
那天糟透了，但你知道，我是说，抱歉，但真的也是最棒的。
It was horrible, but, you know, I mean, I'm sorry, but it really was just the greatest.
酷。
Cool.
因为现在是凌晨两点，你都46岁了，还有两个孩子，这十年来你的生活就是洗碗、吼人收拾东西，过得挺枯燥的。
Because it's 2AM, you're 46 years old, you have two kids, your life has been a drudgery for ten years of, you know, doing dishes and yelling at people to pick shit up.
然后现在你凌晨两点在沙漠里，面对那些巨大的灯光，假装自己要被枪毙然后扔进坟墓里。
And and now you find yourself in the desert at 2AM with these giant lights and pretending to be you're gonna be shot in the head and thrown in a grave.
还有什么比这更好的呢？
And what could be better than that?
而且还有沙尘暴。
There's a there's a there's a sandstorm also.
沙子吹进你的眼睛、嘴巴、耳朵里，感觉真是太棒了。
So sand is blowing in your eyes, in your mouth, in your ears, and it's just great.
真的太棒了，兄弟。
It's just great, man.
这就是你需要的，你知道吗？
It's what you need, you know?
就像在说，天哪，我正需要这个。
It's like, god, I needed this.
你知道，我们在拍这些播客的时候……
You know, we're shooting we're we're doing these podcasts
还有，我很抱歉。
Also, I'm sorry.
我得说一句。
I gotta say it.
这确实让我想起了《Mr. Show》。
It did remind me of mister show.
真的，Vince，我在开始录这个之前就跟Vince说过，昨天在片场有个女人走过来跟我说：“复出开始了。”
And really, Vince, people I I said to Vince before we started recording this that a woman came up to me in the story yesterday and goes, the comeback has begun.
她是《Mr. Show》的粉丝，对她来说，我好像消失了十年。
And she's a fan of mister show and to her it's like I've disappeared for, you know, ten years.
距离我们拍《Mr. Show》已经十年了。
It's been ten years since we Mr.
《Mr. Show》。
Show.
而且说实话，我确实做了很多工作。
And and really, I have I've done a lot of work.
我每天都在工作，但我也花了很多时间帮忙带孩子，因为我妻子有自己的工作。
I've worked every day, but I've also spent a lot of that time helping raise my kids because my wife has her own job.
她是个经理。
She's a manager.
对。
Mhmm.
这些年来她越来越忙，而且做得非常出色。
And she's gotten only busier over the years and done an amazing job.
她的客户都很棒。
She's amazing clients.
对。
Mhmm.
她工作非常努力。
And she works very hard.
而且我也很乐意帮忙。
And I I'm happy to help.
我也做了很多工作。
And I've done a lot of work.
所以我有点消失了，没法参与像凌晨两点在沙漠里那种事。
So I kinda disappeared and I wasn't able to be a part of things like being out in the desert at 2AM.
那真是《Mister Show》啊，兄弟。
That was mister show, man.
《Mister Show》就像，对，就是这样。
Mister show is like Yeah.
你知道，在荒无人烟的地方，我们假装这是月球。
You know, in the middle of nowhere, we're pretending this is the moon.
我们，你知道，在某个工业区，假装这是英格兰什么的，真的很好玩。
We're, you know, we're out in a whatever, you know, industrial zone pretending it's England or whatever, and and it was really fun.
那种事情真的很有趣，兄弟。
That that stuff is fun, man.
这就像是在办一场演出，把孩子们聚在一起，搞个大学演出之类的。
It's it's like putting on a show, getting the kids together, putting, like, a college show or
对。
Yeah.
嘿。
Hey.
你知道吗，我得说，任何正在听的人，如果还不知道《Mister Show》，还没看过的话，赶紧去把它加到你的Netflix列表里，或者去买来看。
You know, I gotta say, anyone listening who who does not know mister Show has not watched, by all means, rush out, put it on your Netflix queue, or go buy them.
它们真的太棒了。
They're just they're wonderful.
而且我特别喜欢那些短小精悍的片段。
And you they're I love the little bite sized bits of them.
你可以看整集。
You watch whole episodes.
那是个半小时的节目。
There there's a half hour show.
对吧？
Correct?
是的。
It was.
但你可以分着看，
But you can watch it in in
哦，当然。
Oh, sure.
你可以一个场景一个场景地看，对。
You can watch a scene Yeah.
一次看一个。
At a time.
半小时过得很快，但你也可以看，我很喜欢DVD菜单里可以单独看每个小品的功能。
The half hour goes fast, but you can also watch I love the way the DVD menu allows you to watch individual sketches.
嘿。
Hey.
而且，天哪，如果你还没看过的话，这真是一部很棒的节目。
And, man, it's just a great show if you haven't checked it out.
谢谢。
Thanks.
嗯，我刚想说，你知道，我们录这些播客的顺序有点乱。
Well, I just was gonna say that, you know, we're shooting these we're doing these podcasts a little bit out of order.
所以昨晚播出了第306集。
So last night, episode number three zero six aired.
对。
Mhmm.
而且，你知道，这是我们今年第一次看到你那个气功机。
And you know, it's like it's the first time that this year that we get to see this chi machine that you're
哦，对，气功。
Oh, yeah, the chi.
而且特别好笑的是，Vin说，你知道，其实挺舒服的什么的。
And it was so funny because Vin said, you know, it's really comfortable actually or something.
而且感觉还挺舒服的。
And It feels good.
文斯，你能说说这是怎么发生的吗？
Go can you go into how that happened, Vince?
你们是怎么决定让他用那个气血循环机的？
How you guys decided to put him in a chi machine?
约翰多年前给我买了一台气血循环机。
John bought me a chi machine years ago.
那是他在深夜电视节目上看到的，他给自己买了一台，也给我买了一台。
It's something he had seen somewhere on late night TV, and he bought himself one, and he got me one too.
就是索尔用的那个小装置，你把脚踝放上去，它会左右摇动你的腿，看起来傻乎乎的。
And this is this little unit you see Saul using where you put your ankles on it and it rocks your legs from side to side, and it looks dopey as hell.
但你坐在上面或躺在那儿，让它按摩你的脊柱大约二十分钟到三十分钟。
But you sit on it or you lie there having it work your spine for about twenty, thirty minutes.
你站起来的时候，会感觉有点头晕，然后……
You get up and you you feel kinda lightheaded and
感觉很好。
you feel good.
这有点像自然放松你的下背部。
It's it's kinda a natural your lower back.
对。
Yeah.
那个画面也特别搞笑，因为你就坐在那儿，然后一直晃来晃去。
It's just such a funny shot too because you're just, like, sitting there and you're just wiggling.
感觉不错。
Feels good.
确实。
It does.
然后
Then
这真是个奇怪的小东西。
you It's a strange little thing.
然后你站起来，你知道，然后你就在那儿说，你知道，房车没怎么着，你们难道没为这种意外情况做准备吗？我当时就是好奇，我想这又让我回到了另一个问题。
And then you get up, know, and you're like talking about, you know, the RV didn't, you know, didn't you guys plan for this contingency and it was just I so I was just wondering, I guess it just leads me back to the other question.
到底有没有即兴发挥的部分？
Was there any improv at all?
所以其实都是写好的，真的都是写好的，我得说，虽然我举不出具体的例子。
So it's all You know, it really is all written and even I I gotta say this and I can't point to a specific, example.
但我确实觉得，很多时候我读剧本、练习、背台词，甚至那些小小的旁白，其实都在里面。
But I do think, there have been many times when I've read the scripts and and practiced them and learned them and even little tiny side comments, they're in there.
它们就是被写进去的。
It's just they're just written in there.
只是可能看起来有点即兴，但这其实也是罗伯特·埃文斯那套的一部分，就是找些可以丢掉的东西，找些可以强调的东西，稍微改变一下你的表达方式。
And they just maybe they look a little more improvised, but that's also part of that whole Robert Evans thing of, like, looking for things to toss away and looking for things to emphasize and changing up your delivery a little bit.
所以有些东西可能看起来像是即兴的。
So it some stuff might maybe seem like I guess it's improvised.
我也不确定。
I don't know.
但其实不是。
But it's not.
嗯，我觉得这正是优秀表演的本质，对。
Well, and this is, I think, the nature of very good acting is Yeah.
就是说，无论你看什么，电视、电影，或者别的，如果感觉镜头前的演员是在背台词，
This is is anytime, any whatever you're watching, TV, movie, whatever, and it and it feels like the personality, the actor in front of the camera is saying lines.
那显然哪里出了问题。
Obviously, something's gone wrong somewhere.
所以能把纸上的文字演活，那真是天赋，也是真本事。
So it's making stuff, you know, words on a page come to life like that is a real talent and a real skill.
我们经常用那句“扔掉”的说法。
We we use that line that throw it away a lot.
你知道吗？
You know?
我的意思是，这很有《绝命毒师》的风格，而且你做得非常好。
I mean, that's that's it's very Breaking Bad, and and you you do that very well.
不过，很多电视剧不会反着来。
Well, a lot of TV shows wouldn't say the opposite.
你知道吗？
You know?
他们会强调每一句台词。
They would say emphasize every line.
对。
Yeah.
不。
No.
我的意思是，这是一部特别的作品，因为你要努力把它做好，你要吸引观众并留住他们，还要像你说的那样保持角色的真实感，而很多电视节目更像是冲着你大喊大叫。
I mean, this is a special piece of work, you know, because you're trying to make it well, you're trying to suck people in and keep them there and and keep the characters honest like you said and you know a lot of television is a kind of a shouts at you more Mhmm.
从房间那头喊过来。
From across the room.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我，你，如果不
I You don't if
你知道，人们觉得电视就是你在做别的事情时开着的东西。
know, people think about TV as a thing that's on when you're doing something else.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
但那是
But that's
那是剧本让你们能做到这一点。
that's the the writing allows you guys to do that.
对。
Yeah.
而且这对观众来说也很激动人心，你知道吗。
And it and it's exciting for the audience, you know.
我跟文斯说过，你知道，有多少人跟我说他们喜欢这个节目，等不到周日晚上就想看。
How many people I I said to Vince, you know, say have told me I love the show and I can't wait for Sunday night.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那太棒了。
That's awesome.
你知道，这真是件好事，人们觉得它值得我投入精力。
You know, that's just a great thing that people are that it's worthy of my focus.
对。
Right.
你
Do you
知道
know what
我的意思吗？
I mean?
对。
Mhmm.
对。
Mhmm.
所以参与这项事业的每个人都是这么对待它的。
And so everybody involved in the in endeavor treats it that way.
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
That's true.
非常正确。
That's very true.
确实如此。
That's true.
对。
Yeah.
嗯，那太好了。
Well, it's great.
我刚才想说，我差点忘了提导演。
I was gonna say I just didn't wanna be remiss in not mentioning the director of
这部剧的导演。
the show.
我刚才正想
I was just I
念给你听呢。
was gonna read you.
你真是我肚子里的蛔虫。
You read my mind.
请讲。
Go ahead.
迈克·斯洛维斯执导了这部剧。
Mike Slovis directed this show.
他是我们的摄影指导。
He's he's our our director of photography.
是的。
Yes.
那感觉怎么样，鲍勃？
So how was that, Bob?
你和迈克合作，作为
You're working with Mike as
迈克尔很棒。
Michael's great.
摄影师，但
Camera guy, but
哦，对。
Oh, yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得你应该问问迈克尔，因为那活儿真不好干。
Well, I think you should ask Michael how that was because that's a tough thing to do.
确实很难。
It's really hard.
我们真希望迈克尔能在这儿。
We so wish Mike could be here.
他现在就在纽约，我们说话这会儿。
He is in New York at the moment as we speak.
他正在拍
He is shooting
《卢比孔河》。
the Rubicon.
《卢比孔河》，就是AMC在《广告狂人》和《绝命毒师》之后推出的下一部剧。
Rubicon, which is AMC's next show up after, you know, Mad Men and then Breaking Bad.
现在AMC要拍的下一部剧就叫《卢比孔河》。
And now the next show AMC is gonna do is called Rubicon.
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