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嗨。
Hi.
欢迎回到《绝命毒师》内部播客。
Welcome back to, the Breaking Bad Insider Podcast.
我是凯莉·迪克森。
My name is Kelley Dixon.
我是AMC电视台新热门剧集《绝命毒师》的剪辑师之一。
I'm one of the editors of the new hit show, Breaking Bad on the AMC Network.
今天我们来聊聊第208集，标题是《风骚律师》。
And I'm here today to discuss episode number two zero eight, entitled Better Call Saul.
《风骚律师》这一集。
Better Better Call Saul.
今天和我一起的是执行制片人吉里根，以及这一集的编剧彼得·古尔德。
I'm here with my executive producer, Gilligan, and the writer of that episode, Peter Gould.
大家好。
Hey.
嘿，大家好。
Hey, guys.
嘿。
Hey.
嘿。
Hey.
凯莉，你怎么样？
How you doing, Kelley?
我觉得我们得直接开始聊了，我知道我们有个新角色，由鲍勃·奥登科克饰演。
So I guess we should start in right away about I know that we have a new character played by Bob Odenkirk.
对。
Yeah.
我们迎来了索尔·古德曼，他是沃尔特的新军师，就像经典《教父》里的那种角色。
We get Saul Goodman, who is Walt's new consigliere in the classic godfather sense.
他会成为那个刑事律师，不仅要为沃尔特辩护——我是说，不只是在他未来的行动中辩护——还要指导他，给他建议，教他如何在犯罪这片浑水里航行。
He's gonna be the the criminal lawyer who's gonna defend well, not just defend Walt, I guess, in his future endeavors, but but also guide him and give him advice on how to sort of navigate the choppy waters of criminality.
地下世界。
The netherworld.
一个刑事律师，一个刑事律师。
A criminal lawyer, a criminal lawyer.
对。
Yeah.
杰西那句台词说得真好。
That's a great line that Jesse has.
是的。
Yeah.
亚伦把那句台词演绎得太棒了。
Aaron delivers that so beautifully.
对。
Yeah.
那句台词真精彩。
That's a great line.
那么，文斯，在开始之前你跟我提过一点，你们是怎么想出索尔·古德曼这个角色的。
So, Vince, you were telling me a little bit before we started this about how you guys came up with the character of Saul Goodman.
是的。
Yeah.
我们当时知道，我们希望沃尔特能有一些额外的帮助。
We we knew we wanted a you know, Walt to have this this extra help.
我们知道，到了某个阶段，他的生意会做得很大，他需要一些外援。
We knew at a certain point his business was gonna get big enough that he's gonna need some outside help.
所以问题就来了，我们该给这个角色取什么名字呢？
So then the question was, what are we gonna name this character?
我记得有一天上班的时候，我想到了在洗澡时想到的名字“索尔·古德”，意思是“一切都好”。
I And I remember coming into work one day having thought of the name Saul Goode in the shower, as in it's all good.
索尔·古德，拼写是G-O-O-D-E。
Saul Goode, g o o d e.
但后来我们的编剧之一杰伊·罗伯茨说，叫索尔·古德曼怎么样？
But then Jay Roberts, one of our writers said, how about Saul Goodman?
没事的，老兄。
It's all good, man.
所以，就像他在剧里说的，索尔·古德曼自己描述的那样，这是他编造的名字，用来让客户开心。
So, you know, and as he describes it in the episode, as Saul Goodman describes it, this a made up name he puts on in his mind to make his clientele happy.
所以
So
他在冒充。
He's passing.
他假装自己是犹太人，但其实不是。
He's he's he's pretending to be Jewish and he's not really.
对。
Yes.
没错。
That is.
你明白吗？
You know?
对，那正是我想做这集的原因之一。
And that's I I knew that was that was one of the reasons I wanted to get that.
我想做这集，是因为他在剧中扮演了一个伪装身份的角色。
I wanted to get this episode because, you know, he's he's he's passing.
他就像个种族变色龙，我觉得这点挺有意思的。
He's he's an ethnic chameleon And I I found that kind of intriguing.
是的。
Yeah.
能跟我聊聊你是怎么请到鲍勃·奥登科克的吗？
Can you tell me a little bit about how you how you got Bob Odenkirk?
我知道你是他的忠实粉丝。
I know you're a big fan of his.
我和彼得一样，都是鲍勃的老粉丝了。
I'm a big fan of Bob's from from way back, as is Peter.
其实，是彼得的妻子诺拉提议我们请鲍勃来演的。
And, yeah, Peter's wife, Nora, actually, had the idea that we should hire Bob.
我觉得她是第一个提出这个想法的人，不过好像也有别人提过他的名字，但后来发现，在别人提到之前，诺拉就已经跟彼得推荐过鲍勃·奥登科克了。
I think she was one of the first I think somebody else independently mentioned his name, but it turns out Nora had mentioned Bob Odenkirk to Peter even before the name came up elsewhere.
她给我列了一个名单。
She wrote me a list.
他排在名单的第一个。
That's He was the first one on the list.
因为，对于那些不太了解鲍勃的朋友来说，大概十五到十年前，他和大卫·克罗斯在HBO上有个节目叫《Mr. Show》。
Because he, for those of you guys, who who aren't familiar with Bob, for about ten or fifteen years ago, he had a show with David Cross on HBO called Mr.
那个节目特别搞笑。
Show that was hilarious.
是个小品喜剧。
It was sketch comedy.
天哪，我买了那个节目的全套DVD。
And man, I just bought all the DVDs of that thing.
我太喜欢那个节目了。
I just love that show.
能和他合作真的很愉快。
And getting to work with him was a real treat.
鲍勃也曾在《周六夜现场》当过编剧。
Bob was also a writer on Saturday Night Live.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
他还导演过电影。
He's he's directed features.
对。
Yeah.
他这个人真是多才多艺。
He's the the guy is is multitalented.
确实如此。
That is true.
我当时真的很高兴，他也很兴奋能参与这个节目。
And I I was just really thrilled that he he was excited to do the show.
而且，我相信他是没看过剧本就接了这份工作。
And he he and now I believe he took the job sight unseen.
你知道，他只有角色的简短描述，连剧本都没有。
You know, he had, a thumbnail description of the character, but no script.
真的吗？
Is that right?
我觉得确实是这样。
I think that's true.
我想我们当时还没把剧本发给他，因为你还在写。
I I don't think we'd send him the script yet because you were still writing it.
但我们得尽量提前搞定，得让他答应，或者找别人答应。
But we we had to get, you know, as much in advance as possible, we had to we had to get him to say yes, or somebody to say yes.
然后我给他打了电话。
And I got on the phone with him.
他想让我给他讲讲这个角色。
He wanted me to talk him through the the character.
我记得他一开始就说，角色的名字叫索尔·古德曼。
I remember one of the first things he says was, you know, I'm the character's name is Saul Goodman.
他是个犹太律师。
He's this Jewish lawyer.
我不是犹太人。
I'm not Jewish.
我说，不，其实这样正好。
I said, no, that's perfect, actually.
然后他说，他最先想聊的其中一件事就是索尔的发型。
And then he said that one of his first things he was interested in talking about was Saul's hair.
他脑子里对索尔的发型有个非常具体的形象。
He had a very specific image in his mind of what Saul's hair would look like.
你知道吗，我们的发型部门做得太棒了，把他后面的头发接得特别好。
You know, and our hair department did such a great job of extending his hair in the back.
不知道你能不能看出来。
Don't know if you could tell there
哦，那是他的头发？
was Oh, that's his hair?
不，不是的。
No, it's not.
我还以为是真的呢。
I thought it was.
不是，那是假发片。对，是的。
No, that's a weave or Yeah, yeah.
他非常在意，在剧里看起来要自然。
He was very concerned that a show, that it looked right.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得，那算是第一个基础吧。
And I think that's you know, that was sort of the first building block.
然后呢，你知道，服装方面我觉得也非常非常重要。
And then, you know, then the costume, well, I think was also something that was very, very important.
但他一开始是从头发入手的。
But he he started he started with a hair.
他说，我想要一个——不是那种完全的鲻鱼头，但差不多是那种半鲻鱼头。
He said, I want to and I don't want to mullet, but I want a quasi mullet.
就是前面正经，后面派对那种感觉，但又不是彻底的鲻鱼头。
You know, business in the front, party in the back, but not full on mullet.
他当时说得特别具体、特别清楚，我现在都没法完全复述出来。
I want to and he was very specific and very articulate about it in a way that I can't recreate now.
但大概就是，后面一定要有那个长度。
But it was like, just it's gotta be in the back.
头发得垂下来，但又要有点——他脑子里那个画面特别清晰。
It's gotta come down, but it's gotta kinda it's gotta have a he saw it very clearly.
那还挺有意思的。
That was interesting.
对了，我还想提一下他那间有趣的办公室。
Well, I wanted to also bring up his interesting office.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
我第一次看到他的办公室时，心里就想，好吧。
When I first saw his office, I'm like, okay.
这确实是个挺有意思的布置。
This is, I mean, this is quite an interesting set.
所以我想知道你们能不能聊聊这个制作设计。
So I'm wondering if you guys could talk a little bit about the production design.
早期的时候，我们很喜欢他办公室设在商业街里的这个设定。
Well, early on, we loved the idea that he was in a strip mall.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Mhmm.
对。
Yeah.
所以我们就在顶上放了个大气球。
So we With a big balloon on the top.
那是后来才有的。
That came a little later.
但你知道，一般什么样的地方会用那些东西？
But that, you know, what what kind of places usually use those?
比如新开的7-11便利店屋顶上放个充气大猩猩，或者那种小卖部，你懂的，通常不会想到律师事务所会用巨大的充气雕像来打广告。
There's some, you know, inflatable gorilla on the roof of a of a new seven eleven that's opened or you know, not not a seven eleven, but like a like quickie mart or what usually you don't usually think of a law firm, you know, advertising with a giant inflatable, you know, Statue
自由女神像。
of liberty.
他把二手车销售的招数用到了法律行业。
He's taking used car sales techniques and bringing them to the legal legal world.
就是这个意思。
That's exactly what it is.
当然，你会把那个巨大的充气蓝色大猩猩放在你的二手车行顶上。
Of course, you use the big inflatable blue gorilla on top of your used car establishment.
但通常不会用在那种高雅的司法领域或者类似的地方。
But usually not, you know, in terms of fine, you know, jurisprudence or whatever that like.
嗯，他其实
Well, he's
结果发现，他其实出人意料地能干。
he turns out I mean, he turns out to be surprisingly competent.
实际上，在他的领域里，他是个相当有效的律师。
That is Actually, he's an effective he's a pretty effective lawyer in his world.
彼得这一点说得确实很对。
That is actually a very good point that Peter makes.
索尔很容易被人低估，看看他的深夜广告、充气自由女神像和公交车站广告牌就知道了。
Saul is an easy guy to underestimate between his late night commercials and his inflatable Statue Of Liberty and his bus benches.
但他实际上可能比你想象的要厉害得多，这个人可能深藏不露。
But he is actually gonna he may just turn out to be there may turn out to be more to this guy than you think.
他其实也是个挺不错的律师。
He's actually a pretty good lawyer too.
当然，我说的不是那种好律师——不是指人品好、有道德，或者遵守美国司法体系标准的那种。
Actually, he's not a good lawyer, as in a good person or moral or abiding by the standards of the judicial branch of The United States or any of that.
但他确实很精明。
But he's actually very savvy.
他是个非常聪明的人。
He's very smart guy.
他知道怎么钻制度的空子。
He knows how to play the system.
我们团队里有个编剧叫乔治·马斯特斯，他本身就是律师。
One of our writers on the staff, George Mastress, is an attorney.
我觉得他要是知道我们把这个说出来了，肯定会吓一跳。
I think he'd be horrified to know that we've disclosed that.
所以他在里面加了一些专业的东西。
And so he was able to throw in a few things there.
我觉得他是
I think he was
但我们不是一直说乔治现在吗？
a But didn't we always say George now?
我知道你不会这么做。
I know you wouldn't do this.
你不会做的。
You wouldn't do it.
但如果你打算做，你会怎么做？
But if you were gonna do it, how would you do it?
乔治乔治是辩护律师。
And George George was a defense attorney.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Yeah.
他确实是。
He was.
对。
Yeah.
乔治·乔治做了很多事。
George George did a lot.
他和谁合作过？
Who did he work with?
是大律师吗？
Big lawyer?
我们请乔治来的时候，顺序有点乱了，但等乔治上场，胡安会问他那个问题。
When we get George we're doing these a little out of order now, but when we get George to do, Juan will ask him about that.
什么？
What?
怎么了？我这不是在透露秘密嘛。
What's wrong with I'm I'm letting out the secrets.
我们这些录制顺序是乱的。
We're doing these out of order.
哎呀。
Uh-oh.
别偷看幕后的人。
Don't peek at the man behind the curtain.
这播客的意义不就是让我看看幕后的人，然后报警把他抓起来嘛。
That's the whole point of the podcast, to see to see I get a peek at the man behind the curtain and then call the police and have him arrested.
嘿。
Hey.
说说你当时在广告拍摄现场的事。
Talk about the you were on the set for the commercial.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Right.
对。
Yeah.
嗯，那个，你知道，从我的角度看，那个电视广告有意思的地方在于，我们之前推销那个广告很多次了。
Well, that, you know, it was the the funny thing about the TV commercial from my perspective, we had pitched that commercial so many times.
我，这个，这几乎成了某种……
I had this this became sort of a
这是在索尔·古德曼出现之前吗？
This is before there was Saul Goodman?
哦，不是。
Well, no.
当我们，当我们制作那集的时候，出于某种原因，我觉得，从我的角度看，我们总是会回到那个广告，我总在心里想，我知道那个广告不错。
When we were when we were working on the episode, for some reason, I I think this from my perspective, we would always go back to that, and I'd always think to myself, well, I know the commercial's good.
所以每当我们卡住的时候，我就再推销一次那个广告。
So whenever we got stuck, I would just pitch the commercial again.
而让我惊讶的是，它拍得那么快。
And and what amazed me was how quickly it shot.
哦，是的。
It Oh, yeah.
真的吗？
Really?
就是那种，你知道，一气呵成的感觉。
It just you know, it was just bam, bam, bam.
而且，我们找来了阿尔伯克基当地的所有演员，他们都特别棒，特别有趣。
And, you know, we had all these wonderful, funny they were all local actors in Albuquerque who we brought in.
对。
Yeah.
但他们每个人大概半小时就拍完了，很快就搞定了。
But they were all you know, they were in and done, each of them probably in about half an hour.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，除了那个，还有很多索尔·古德曼的绿幕镜头。
So it was there were there was that, and there was also a lot of Saul Goodman green screen.
我们有一个我觉得特别珍贵的东西，希望最终能收录在DVD里，就是鲍勃在那支广告里拍的所有那些我们没用上的片段。
The one thing that we do have that I think is really a treasure that I'm hoping ends up on the DVD are all the things that Bob did on that commercial that we couldn't use.
对。
Yeah.
因为我觉得大概有十五到二十分钟的即兴表演。
Because I think there's probably fifteen, twenty minutes of improv.
他就在那儿。
And he's he's there.
他没有跳出角色。
He doesn't break character.
他基本上是以索尔·古德曼的身份在指导镜头。
He kind of starts directing the camera in character as Saul Goodman.
而且有时候他会以索尔·古德曼的身份偏离台词。
And he's and and he and he start and there were times when he was kinda going off his lines as Saul Goodman.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
而且我觉得那真的是一些非常精彩的内容，希望有一天能公开。
And it was it was really I think it's some some pretty spectacular stuff that I I hope becomes publicly available.
我记得我们的服装设计师凯瑟琳·德·托罗，她之前特别紧张，一直在想这个人的西装到底要怎么裂开，才能露出里面黑白条纹的囚服。
I remember Kathleen De Toro, our wonderful costume designer, was quite nervous in advance about how exactly is the guy's suit gonna break off and gonna reveal the black and white striped prison garb underneath.
没错。
That's right.
你希望这个怎么裂开？
How you do want this to break away?
是从中间裂开吗？
Do you want to break away in the middle?
还是上下分开？
Does it come apart, I don't know, top and bottom?
或者你们用鱼线钩住，然后一拉，像魔术贴一样撕开？
Would you guys hooked up like little fish lines and pull it in as Velcroed together?
那是凯瑟琳和她的团队做得很出色的一部分。
That was a brilliant piece that Kathleen and her team did.
而且确实做到了。
And it did.
确实做到了。
It did.
它一下子就拉开了，而且更重要的是，它又能立刻合回去，因为你知道，需要拍好几条。
It it pulled apart instantly, and it went back to even more importantly, it went back together instantly because, you know, you have to do a a number of takes.
对。
Yeah.
但有一个地方不是每次都那么完美，就是帽子落在他头上的那一下。
And the one piece that didn't always work perfectly was the hat coming down on his head.
有时候——我觉得那场戏的喜剧亮点就在于，囚犯的帽子从上方飘下来。
Sometimes and that think that was sort of the the comic highlight of that was the fact that the the prisoner's hat sails in from the top.
那一条拍了好多遍才拍好。
That took quite quite a few takes to get right,
我觉得也是。
I think.
是不是有个工作人员在镜头外拿着钓鱼竿？
Was that, like, a guy with a fishing pole off camera?
对。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
我记得是丹尼斯·丹尼斯·彼得森用钓鱼竿弄的。
That was, I believe, Dennis Dennis Peterson with a fishing
竿子。
pole.
这就对了。
There you go.
所以你们这集开头用了这个有趣的小镜头。
So you guys you guys started this episode with nice interesting little shot here.
我记得读剧本的时候，上面写着这段适合用我们说的‘一镜到底’来拍。
I remember reading the script and it said that this would be nice to play in a what we call a oner.
给不了解的朋友解释一下，‘一镜到底’就是字面意思。
And for those of you out there, a oner is just what it sounds like.
意思是镜头中间没有切换。
It means there are no cuts in the camera.
整场戏用一个镜头拍完。
It's the whole scene plays in in one shot.
我当时觉得这主意特别酷，所以记得Skip MacDonald剪这集的时候。
And I thought it was really cool and that's why I remember when Skip MacDonald cut this episode.
我记得他拿样片来的时候，我就专门看了这一段，觉得特别有意思。
I remember watching just this part of it when he brought the dailies in and I thought it was really interesting.
然后几周前，我看了最终版，心里想，哇。
And then a couple of weeks ago, I watched the final version and I'm like, wow.
你们这次可藏了不少妙招，要是你没注意到的话，对，就是这样。
You guys you guys have some tricks up your sleeve with this one that, you know, if you're not yeah.
如果你不刻意去找，就算你去找，也得有非常敏锐的眼光才能看出来。
If you're not looking for them, even if you are looking for them, you gotta have a pretty keen eye to tell.
那你们想聊聊里面那些小技巧吗？
So do you guys wanna talk about the little tricks that you have in there?
在聊技巧之前，我想先夸一下D·J·奎尔斯和马特·琼斯，他们演这场戏演得太完美了。
Well, before you just talk about the tricks, the one thing I do wanna say to give credit to to d j Qualls and Matt Jones who are doing the scene, they did the scene Perfect.
非常完美。
Perfectly.
完美。
Perfect.
我们有一遍又一遍的镜头，他们在这场戏里表现得特别出色。
That that we have that we have take after take of them really killing in this scene.
对。
Yeah.
所以任何剪辑上的技巧都是我们的功劳，不是他们的。
So any editing tricks are due to us, not due to them.
嗯，不是的。
Well, no.
彼得，你提的这点非常好。
That's a very good point you make, Peter.
就像凯莉说的，我们把它设计成了一场小短剧。
We conceived of this, as as Kelley said, as like a little mini play.
你知道，你和泰瑞，泰瑞，拍摄那天你也在场，你用经典的‘腰带加背带’方式拍了这场戏。
You know, you and Terry, you know, Terry, you were there in the day when this was shot, and Terry covered it, you know, in the classic belt and suspenders fashion.
他从不同角度拍摄，这样我们就能根据需要剪辑进去。
He covered it from different angles so that we could cut into it as need be.
就像你说的，马特和DJ表现得非常出色，毫无瑕疵。
And Matt and DJ did, as you said, a great job without a flaw.
他们把它演得像个小话剧，因为这场戏大概有五页纸那么长。
They they ran it like a little play because this thing is, like, five pages long, this scene.
你
Do you
知道拍了多少条吗？
know how many takes there were?
拍了多少条？
How many takes were there?
说来也怪，这个长镜头其实没拍多少条。
You know, surprisingly on this oner, there weren't that many takes.
让我觉得有意思的是，特里费了好大劲，确保那帮人提前一天到。
What was interesting to me was that Terry moved heaven and earth to make sure the guys arrived a day early.
对。
Yes.
所以他们多了一点时间——我记得我们是周一拍的，他让他们周六就到，而不是周日，这样他就能跟他们一起排练。
And so he got a little extra they arrived on, I think, we were shooting at my memory is we shot on Monday, and he had them come in on a Saturday instead of Sunday so he could work with them
是的。
Yeah.
在酒店里排练。
At the hotel.
于是他们排练了那场戏。
And so they ran the scene.
等他们到片场的时候，已经演得很好了。
And by the time they got to the set, they were doing a great job.
但还有一件事，他和摄影指导迈克尔·斯洛维斯做的，就是先把所有分镜头拍完。
But then another thing that he and Michael Slovis, the DP did, was that they shot all the coverage first.
所以他们把所有文斯提到的那些近景镜头都拍了。
So they did all the the closer angles that Vince is talking about
聪明。
smart.
还有那些斜侧单人镜头之类的。
And the raking singles and all that.
那些都拍完了。
That was all done.
所以感觉就像——其实比那还多得多。
And so it was almost as if they had Which is out of much more were hurt.
那是打乱的
That was out
顺序。
of order.
这完全和通常的做法相反。
That's absolutely the way the opposite of what you usually do.
对。
Yes.
通常，你会从更广的镜头开始，然后往近景拍。
Usually, you work from the the wider shots in closer.
是的。
Yeah.
所以基本上，你的意思是，我读到的时候，它本来应该是个奇观。
So basically, you're saying that when I read it, it was supposed to be a wonder.
但为了保险起见，你们决定还是拍一些备选镜头、中景、特写，以防万一。
But just to protect yourselves, you guys decided you wanted to shoot coverage, medium shots, close-up shots, just in case.
是的。
Yep.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
然后我们在剪辑室里，我们知道手里有不错的东西，因为那个长镜头你们可能拍了两三条。
And then we were in the editing room, and we knew we had something good because we had probably did you guys did two or three takes of that master maybe.
而且每条都拍得很好，两位演员的表演非常到位。
And we had they were all of them really good, really well executed by the two actors.
但就像彼得说的，不是演员的问题，而是这场戏感觉有点拖沓。
But as Peter said, through no fault of theirs, the scene kinda felt a little long.
因为这场戏大概有五页半的剧本长度。
And because it was, it was like a five, five and a half page scene.
所以我和彼得，还有剪辑师斯基普·麦克唐纳，一遍又一遍地反复看。
And so we're watching it, and watching it, and watching it over and over again, Peter and I, and Skip Macdonald, the editor.
问题自然就来了：我们是不是该切到其他机位，把这里的小动作、那里的小细节剪掉一些，尽管演员演得非常好？
And the question inevitably arises, well, should we go into coverage here and cut out this little bit here, this little bit of business here, despite the great job the actors are doing?
其实也没那么好笑。
It's not really that funny.
你说，我们是不是该删掉这段？
You know, maybe do we do we get rid of this?
那段要不要也剪掉？
Do we cut out that?
然后Skip有个好主意，我们实际上就这么做了——我们剪进了这个长镜头，大概五分半钟的样子。
And Skip had a great idea of there there's there's actually what we did, we cut in this oner, which was five and a half minutes long, whatever.
我们大概从里面剪掉了一分半钟，Skip很巧妙地利用了那些过路人，就是我们说的‘遮挡’，那些行人、走路的人从镜头前经过，他非常仔细地把它们剪掉，在Avid里，就是我们的电脑剪辑系统里，做成类似遮罩的东西，让它们从画面中穿过，用他们的身体来掩盖我们其实剪掉了十秒、二十秒、三十秒的内容。
We cut probably a minute and a half out of this thing by Skip very artfully taking the wipes, what we call the wipes, the passersby, the people on foot, the pedestrians walking in front of the camera and wiping through frame, he very carefully cut them out, made, you know, mats of them, as it were, in the Avid, in our editing, computerized editing system, and wiped them through the frame and used their bodies to hide the fact that we were cutting out ten, twenty, thirty seconds at
一次剪掉一大段。
a at a whack.
基本上就是，一个行人走过去，在他们身后，Matt和DJ，或者说Badger和那个警察、便衣警察，已经换了拍摄条次。
Basically, a pedestrian walks by, behind them, Matt and and DJ or Badger and this this policeman, undercover cop, have changed takes.
对。
Yeah.
哦，不会吧。
Oh, no.
其实，它们都是同一个镜头。
They it's all the same take, actually.
哦，对，没错。
Oh, and it that's right.
都是
It's all
同一个镜头。
the same take.
从一个镜头里剪掉了几秒钟。
Cut out a few seconds out of the one take.
没错。
That's right.
哦。
Oh.
哦。
Oh.
所以，你用的就是他们那一条。
So it the is same take that you used of them.
他们表现得那么好吗？
Is it they were that good.
不是吧？哦，好吧。
It didn't Oh, okay.
而且，你知道，我觉得这也是让这场戏有流畅感的原因之一。对。
And also it has you know, that's one of things I think gives the scene a flow to it Yeah.
它就是一镜到底。
Is it is one take.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，还有一件挺有意思的事，你们这些听播客的人，如果你们跟我一样，现在肯定正冲到录像机前，一帧一帧地看这段呢。
And so the when the other thing that's sort of funny about it and, you you know, those of you who are listening to the podcast, if you're like if you're like me, you're running to your DVR right now and looking at this frame by frame.
对。
Yeah.
我挑战你们去找这些镜头，因为它们都藏在其他那些人和车来回穿梭的擦除画面中间。
I challenge you to find these because they're buried in the middle of all these other wipes of people and cars going back and forth.
是的。
Yeah.
并不是每个走过的人影都代表一个剪辑点。
Not every person who walks past indicates a cut.
那些走过的人本来就是素材里就有的。
Those people walking past were in the footage anyway.
特里·麦克多诺让他们时不时地穿过镜头，把他们的间隔拉开。
Terry McDonough had them walking through the shot every now and then had them spaced out.
但每隔一段时间，我们就会利用其中一个人影，或者我们自己安排一个人影放在我们想要剪辑的位置。
But every now and then, we used one of them or or or we we placed one in a spot where we wanted a cut.
如果你凑近仔细看，也许能找到，但我们不会告诉你它们在哪。
And if you look real close, you could probably find it, but we're not gonna tell you where they are.
但大概有三四个这样的镜头，对吧？
But there's like three or four of them, right?
所以你是要提供奖品吗？
So you're offering a prize?
没有。
Nah.
谁要是
Whoever
能把它们全找出来？
finds the them all?
他们说什么？
What are they saying?
咔嗒咔嗒。
Click and clack.
自己给自己鼓鼓掌吧。
Administer yourself a warm pat on the back.
这就对了。
There you go.
好样的。
Attaboy.
是的。
Yeah.
Skip那件事干得真漂亮。
Skip did a hell of a job with that.
确实让人印象深刻。
It was just really impressive.
不过有意思的是，我们讨论的竟然是一个看起来完全没剪辑的镜头或场景？
Isn't it funny, though, that we're talking about a shot or scene that looks like it has no editing at all?
对。
Yeah.
明白。
Understand.
但剪辑师却做了大量工作来塑造它，让它更有趣。
And yet the editor has done such a tremendous to shape it and to make it more entertaining.
是的，我们三个人当时就在那个房间里，看起来就是那个未经剪辑的镜头。
Yeah, the three of us were in that room just in that one unedited shot, seemingly.
我们在那个房间里剪辑那东西几乎花了一整天。
We were in the room editing that thing for almost a day.
大半天吧。
Most of a day.
对。
Yeah.
DJ和马特那两位干得很棒。
Those guys did a great job, DJ and Matt.
看他们工作真的非常有意思。
Really, really fun watching them work.
你们刚才提到了一点，我正好想聊聊，刚才听你们说的时候我突然想到了。
You guys brought up something that I wanted to talk about, and it just occurred to me as I was listening.
像这种节目通常要排练多久？
How much much rehearsal is usually done on stuff like this?
我觉得大家可能不知道，其实排练时间并不多，尤其是在电视节目里。
I don't think people realize that, you know, there's not a whole lot of rehearsal that gets done, especially in television.
我知道演员们可能希望有更多排练时间。
You know, I know that actors probably wish there was more.
我也知道每个人都希望时间能更充裕些。
I know that everybody wishes there was more time.
但咱们节目通常能有多少排练时间呢？
But how much rehearsal usually does get done on our show?
有时候确实没我们希望的那么多。
Not as much as sometimes we'd like.
但就像你刚才说的，我们和其他电视节目没什么两样。
But we're no different, as you just said, than any other TV show.
做电视节目就是争分夺秒，要在有限的时间里把该拍的都拍完。
You're running for your life on a TV show, trying to get everything shot in a in a very little amount of time that you have.
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而且，演员们真正能排练一场戏的机会其实挺少的。
And, it's it's sort of rare that, the actors really get to rehearse a scene.
不过，这一季有几次，比如像这场戏，我们想一镜到底，或者为了后面一些特别重要的戏剧性时刻——我就不多说了——演员和导演好几次都抽时间在周末聚在一起排练，这对剧组和演员来说要求挺高的，尤其是那些日复一日在剧组工作的人。
Although a couple of times this season, for a scene like this one, we wanted to play as a oner or for some really big dramatic moments we've got coming up, which I won't talk too much about, the actors and the director have, on several occasions, found the time to get together on the weekend, which is asking a lot of of the crew and the actors, especially, you know, the folks who've come in, the folks who are working on the show day in and day out.
让他们在周末抽出两三个小时，他们总是愿意的，从来没有抱怨过，因为他们和我们其他人一样，都希望尽最大努力把节目做到最好。
For them to give up even two or three hours on a weekend is you know, they always do There's never any any grumbling or groaning because they, like the rest of us, they want the very best show that they can possibly muster.
简单来说，就是澄清一下电视节目通常是怎么运作的。
Just to, you know, kinda clarify what kinda gets done in in a nutshell on television shows.
你知道，一集节目实际拍摄时间是八天，在这八天里整集都拍完，然后第九天下一集就接着进来，又是八天的拍摄周期。
You know the show will will shoot, the actual camera will roll on one episode for eight days and in that eight days the whole show gets shot and right after on day number nine, the next episode comes right in for their eight days.
而且，大多数节目每集都会换不同的导演。
And what happens too is, on most shows there is a different director for every episode.
我知道有些节目有时候会同时拍两集，所以一个导演负责两集。
I know there are shows out there that sometimes will shoot two episodes at the same time, so they will have one director for two episodes.
但在我们节目里，每集都是一个导演。
But on our show, it's one director for every episode.
是的。
Yeah.
那叫交叉拍摄。
That's called cross boarding.
哦，好的。
Oh, okay.
我们其实有一次就这么干过。
We did that actually one time.
亚当·伯恩斯坦，一位很棒的导演，这一季也为我们执导了两集，他执导了我们第一季的前两集，我们当时就采用了交叉拍摄。
Adam Bernstein, wonderful director who also does two episodes for us this season, directed our first two episodes of season one and we cross boarded them.
这意味着在筹备的第一天，你就得把两个剧本都准备好，然后像拍电影一样把整个拍摄计划安排好。
It means it requires that you have the two scripts ready to go on day one of prep and you schedule the whole thing out, in this case, like a movie.
因为你有两个小时的时长，差不多就是一部电影的篇幅。
Because you've got two hours, you know, pretty much movie length of story.
然后你要确定，比如，第一集里第14场戏。
And you figure out, okay, there's a scene, scene number 14 in episode one.
我们可以和第二季第28场一起拍。
We can shoot along with scene number 28 in episode two.
这些
These
不是真实的场次号或剧集号。
are not real scene numbers or episodes.
对，我就是举个例子。
Yeah, I'm just making a note.
但你明白我的意思。
But you know what I'm saying.
基本上就是一天之内，把两集的内容拆成零碎的部分来拍。
It's basically you shoot little bits and pieces of both episodes in any one given day.
这样就能把进度赶完。
And that's how you get through it.
很多电视剧，嗯，有些电视剧在这方面做得特别出色，每周都这么干，把时间利用到极致。
And a lot of TV shows, well, some TV shows out are really brilliant about doing that week in and week out and making the most of their time.
我跟你说，我听说过一些剧集主管能做到这一点。
And I tell you, a showrunner, I hear about showrunners that pull that off.
我真不知道他们是怎么做到的。
I don't know how they do it.
因为就像我说的，这需要你在同一天准备好两个剧本，而在一个季度的任何一天，尤其是后期阶段，光是第一天准备一个像样的剧本就已经几乎不可能了。
Because as I said, it requires that you have two scripts ready to go on one day, the And first day of getting one script ready to go in good shape on the first day of prep in any given moment in the season, especially toward the latter part of the season, just about impossible.
你怎么可能同时准备好两个剧本，好把它们交叉排期呢？
How do you get two of them ready to go so you can cross board them?
我不知道。
I don't know.
我们那次之所以能做到，唯一的原因就是那是我们的第一集。
The only reason we did it that one time is because it was our first episode.
我们提前好几个月、好几周就开始准备了。
We had months leading in, weeks leading in.
那是在试播集之后。
That was after the pilot.
那是试播集之后的第一集。
That was the first episode after the pilot.
试播集是独立的一回事。
The pilot is its own creature.
它有自己的特点。
It's his own thing.
你知道，很多工作人员留在了电视剧组，但感觉完全是另一批人。
You know, we had a a lot of the crew stayed around for the TV show, but that felt like a whole different crew.
我们换了不同的摄影指导。
We had a different director of photography.
从实际拍摄到我们开始，大概隔了六个月。
About six months between when it was actually shot till when till when we start
我想是开始拍摄。
shooting I think
你二月份拍试播集，我们直到九月中旬才开始拍第一集。
you you start shooting the pilot in February and we didn't start shooting, the first episode until the middle of September.
对。
Yeah.
确实是这样。
Is that yeah.
你说得对。
You're right.
没错。
You're right.
我记日期不太行，但听起来是对的。
I I got a bad memory for dates, but that sounds right.
我想再举个例子说明一下，基本上你会有一个导演进来，比如说这个导演，特里·麦克多诺，他是在第二季第八集的时候进来的。
Just to, I guess further illustrate that is you basically will have a director, will come in, let's say let's say this director, Terry McDonough, he came in when episode this is episode number two zero eight.
拍摄第二季第八集的特里·麦克多诺，实际上是在第二季第七集开拍的第一天就开始为他的那集做准备了。
Terry McDonough who's shooting two zero eight actually came in to start prepping the episode when on the first day of episode two zero seven.
所以那个导演基本上在拍摄他的那集之前，要花八天时间做准备，看场地、开制作会议等等这些事。
So that director is basically busy for eight days before his episode of shooting prepping, looking at locations, having production meetings, all that kind of stuff.
然后他就会开始拍摄第208集。
And then he will start shooting episode two zero eight.
到了那个时候，负责第209集的导演就会进来开始筹备。
And at that point, the person who's directing two zero nine will come in and start prepping.
所以这有点像一列失控的火车。
So it's kind of like a it's almost like a runaway train.
它就这么一直往前冲。
It it just keeps going.
而与此同时，我们的编剧室也在不停地工作。
And all the while, our writers room is also working.
编剧们也在持续努力，确保他们能赶在正在筹备的剧集前面。
The writers are also working constantly trying to make sure that they stay ahead of the episodes that are actually prepping.
而文斯必须把每一个细节都盯住。
And Vince has to keep track of every single bit of it.
嗯，你知道，我有人帮忙的。
Well, you know, I have help.
我有你们啊。
I have you guys.
不过，是的，我们都在讲这个非常连续的故事。
But, yeah, we all tell in this very serialized story.
我们都得打起十二分精神，努力记住细节。
We all have to put our brains into high gear and try to remember.
等等，先别急。
Now wait a minute.
你看，我们是不是忘了三集前发生的事？等等之类的。
You know, didn't aren't we forgetting something happened three episodes back and, you know, yada yada yada.
还有，凯莉，你漏了，与此同时，你和林恩、斯基普，我正要说
And also, what you left out, Kelley, is, meanwhile, you you and Lynn and Skip I was just gonna get
到那个。
to that.
你们都在同时进行剪辑。
You're all editing at the same time.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，在赛季刚开始的那几天，也就是制作还没开始的时候，我们其实有充足的时间来打磨剧本。
So we're at any given moment, you know, a few episodes into the season, sort of the solid days at the beginning of the season when production hadn't even started yet.
我们有时间把剧本打磨得更精细。
We have time to fine tune the scripts and all that.
但一旦事情真正运转起来，你一天中的每个小时都得同时处理前期制作、拍摄和后期制作。
But once get into once things really get rolling, you are in pre production and production and post production all in any one given hour of the day.
同时进行。
At the same time.
大家都在干活。
We're all working.
你在筹备一集。
You're prepping an episode.
你在构思一集。
You're figuring out an episode.
有人在写一集剧本。
Somebody's off writing an episode.
你在给剧本提修改意见。
You're giving notes on the script.
与此同时，你还在拍上一集。
And then in the meantime, you're shooting the previous episode.
而再往前两集，剪辑师正在剪。
And in the meantime, two episodes back is the one the editors are cutting.
这电视剧制作真是神奇。
You're it's amazing TV.
要知道，你们平时看的那些电视剧。
Keep in mind, there's TV shows you guys watch out there.
你们喜欢的剧，希望我们的也是，老天保佑。
There's TV shows you love, hopefully ours, knock on wood.
也有你们不喜欢的剧。
There's TV shows you hate.
但我们每个人，都有自己喜欢和讨厌的东西。
But any of us, we all have what we love and what we hate.
制作一部电视剧所投入的工作量真是惊人。
It's astounding the amount of work that goes into making a TV.
我甚至不敢相信，我不是说我们。
I can't even believe that we I don't mean us.
我是说任何电视剧。
I mean any TV show.
你不相信能做成吗？
Don't believe You wanna pull it off?
就算是最差的，听起来有点自夸。
Even the worst well, it sounds very self congratulatory.
我不是那个意思。
Don't mean it that way.
我只是说电视制作本身，我真不知道它是怎么运作的。
I'm just TV in general, I don't know how it works.
就算是你见过最烂、最讨厌的电视节目，你都不敢相信那些人为了让它播出付出了多少努力。
Even the worst TV show you ever saw that you hate, you can't believe how hard those people work to get it on the air.
这真的很惊人。
It's astonishing.
我特别佩服。
I'm amazed.
嗯，从另一个角度来说，我觉得每个参与节目的人，包括我自己，都会意识到这工作量有多大，然后感叹一声，哇。
Well, other perspective I'd give you on that is I think everybody who works on the show, me included, you realize how much work it is, and then you say, wow.
但我们在做的是一件特别棒、特别有感觉的事情，你能明显感觉到它很顺畅。
But we're working on something really special that's really clicking, and you can feel it clicking.
我觉得这就是其中一种情况。
And I think that that's one of the things that happens.
每个人都会多付出一点，或者你会得到大家最好的状态，因为这不仅仅是辛苦工作，结果谁也不知道会怎样。
Everybody gives, you know, just a little bit more or, you know, you that's you're really getting the best of everybody because it's not just hard work and god knows what the results are going to be.
你就能感觉到它很顺畅、很特别。
You can just feel it kind of clicking and being special.
至少，你知道，这就是我的感受。
At least I you know, that's that's how I feel.
你知道吗，我们都会陷入视野狭隘。
You know, we all get tunnel vision.
你必须相信自己正在做的事情很特别，不管它实际上是不是。
You gotta believe what you're working on is special, whether it is or it isn't.
你必须相信这一点。
You gotta believe it.
否则，我真不知道你怎么撑过一天。
Otherwise, I don't know how you get through the day.
但，但在
But but In
这种情况下，它确实
this case, it really
是。
is.
这是
It's
这不是自欺欺人。
it's not self deception.
嗯，这挺有意思的。
Well, it's funny.
我本来没想扯这么远。
I I didn't mean to get off too much onto a tangent.
我觉得很多人其实不太明白这其中的运作方式，但我提这个主要是因为排练的多少问题。
I think it's kind of I guess, you know, a lot of people don't really understand how it works, but I only wanted to mention it because of the amount of rehearsal or the lack of rehearsal.
我们真的得依赖演员们到场后即兴发挥，嗯，就是这样。
We really have to rely on the fact that, you know, our actors are here and they came to play and Oh, Well, that's
你这话说到点子上了。
that you said it right there.
凯莉，这就是我们不需要排练的原因。
I mean, Kelley, it's the reason we don't have to have rehearsals.
你知道吗，大家都会这么想。
You know, everyone would like them, think.
布莱恩、安娜、亚伦、迪恩、贝琪、RJ，所有人都希望有排练。
Brian and Anna and Aaron, all Dean, Betsy, RJ, everybody would like rehearsals.
你知道，每场新戏都会有一点走位排练。
You know, there's a little bit of a blocking rehearsal that you go through for every new scene.
但那是在拍摄当天进行的。
But that happens the day of.
那是在开拍前一小时进行的。
That happens an hour before they're gonna roll.
那是在开拍前五分钟进行的，而且我觉得，如果可能的话，他们大多都希望有更多准备时间。
That happens five minutes before they're gonna roll, And most of I think they'd love more prep time if they could have it.
但你知道，我们的成败都取决于演员，取决于我们的演员阵容。
But, you know, we live or die on on our actors, on our on our on our cast.
谢天谢地，我们有这么优秀的演员，他们总能搞定一切。
And and thank god we got such fine actors who get it done.
而且，你知道吗，看布莱恩就特别有意思。
And, you know, it's amazing to watch Brian, just for instance.
他们所有人都非常出色。
All all of them are are so wonderful.
你看布莱恩，你坐在那儿，跟他闲聊，他正聊着道奇队前一晚的比赛，开着玩笑，跟助理摄影师逗乐子，突然有人喊‘开拍’。
You watch Brian, you're sitting there, you know, BS ing with him on the set, he's talking about the way the Dodgers played the night before, he's goofing around, telling jokes with the assistant camera operator or whatever, and suddenly somebody calls Rowling.
然后就像变了个人似的。
And it's like, suddenly he's a different person.
我是说，一瞬间，他就完全变了一个人。
I mean, in a nanosecond, he's a different person.
他的演技太棒了。
He's got such chops.
他干这行够久了，既有天赋又有技巧。
He's been doing it long enough and he's got such skill and talent.
天赋是老天给的，但技巧是他几十年磨练出来的，我们其他演员也一样。
Talent is God given, but the skill he earned many decades work, and as did the rest of our actors.
而且他们真的把这些本事用到了实处。
And they really put it to good use.
有人一喊‘开拍’，他立马就变成了沃尔特·怀特。
Someone calls Rowling and boom, all of a sudden he's Walter White.
因为布莱恩·克兰斯顿和沃尔特·怀特完全是两个人，但天哪，他就能自如切换。
Because Bryan Cranston and Walter White are two very different people, but man, he turn it on and off.
我真不知道他们是怎么做到的。
I don't know how they do it.
太神奇了。
It's amazing.
好，那我们回到第208集。
Well, jumping back to episode two zero eight.
几集前我们认识了新的主角——好吧，也不算女主角。
A couple of episodes ago we met our new lead well, guess not leading lady.
不过她算是杰西的女主角。
She's Jesse's leading lady though.
她是
She's
对，克里斯汀·里特。
Yeah, Kristen Ritter.
里特。
Ritter.
是的。
Yeah.
这一集基本上是他们第一次有点勾搭上。
In this episode, basically, is the first time they they kinda hook up.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
That's right.
嗯，他们其实已经勾搭上了，就在上一集淡出和这一集淡入之间那种感觉。
Well, they've hooked up, know, sort of in between the, you know, the fade out of the previous episode and the fade into this one.
对。
Yeah.
我真的很喜欢你插播广告的方式。
I really like how you put the commercial.
就是杰西的那个卫星，上一集还在搜索。
I I Jesse's satellite that was searching in the last episode.
我们让它一直搜索着。
We left it searching.
现在它搜索完了，开始播放索尔的广告了。
Is now he's now has now finished searching and is broadcasting Saul's commercial.
嗯，你知道，这很大程度上是因为编剧室里好几个人当时都在考虑买平板电视。
Well, you know, think a lot of this comes out of the fact that number of us in the writers room were thinking about getting flat screen TVs.
等离子还是液晶？
The plasma or LCD?
对。
Yeah.
嗯，这个嘛……
Well, that's
对。
it.
等离子电视的黑色表现更好。
The blacks are better in plasma.
在2005年2月，你听到过
In 02/2005, you heard
一些那样的对话。
some of that conversation.
所以这就成了……成了贯穿那集的一个反复出现的主题。
So that's that's that's that's becomes it becomes a a running motif, you know, in in the episode.
当时你是想写一场性爱戏，还是我们说‘算了，直接切到事后温存’的时候，你有点失望？
Now, did you wanna write a sex scene or were you bummed out when we said, nah, let's just cut cut to the afterglow?
说实话吧。
You know, Be honest.
我我我……我挺纠结的，如果我不需要在拍摄现场盯着的话，我倒是不介意写那段戏。
I I I I'm I'm hung up enough that that I wouldn't mind writing it if I if I didn't have to be there while they were shooting it.
所以嘛，你懂的，对。
So so, you know, yeah.
但克里斯汀，她真的很厉害。
But Kristen was, you know, she's just she's tremendous.
她和亚伦之间的那种默契，对，
And the rapport that she and Aaron had Yeah.
真的非常值得一看。
Was was really something to see.
而且，我真的很自豪，观众会慢慢发现这两个人之间一直有种联系。
And it's I I'm really proud of the fact that you start finding out that these two have had a sense of connection.
然后你开始看到这种联系可能来自哪里——她正在戒瘾康复中。
And now you start seeing where some of that connection might be coming from, that she's in recovery.
是的，完全同意。
Yeah, absolutely.
也许吧
Maybe
她被他吸引是有原因的，而且原因很多。
there's a reason she's drawn to him for a whole lot of reasons.
我觉得这还挺有意思的。
I think that's kind of interesting.
就像飞蛾扑火一样。
Like a moth to a flame.
是的，好吧。
Yes, well.
也许吧。
Maybe.
总之，不用说得太含蓄，我们接下来会给这两个角色安排一些有趣的情节。
Think, suffice it to say, and not to be too coy, but we've got some interesting stuff coming up with those two.
他们俩在一起真的很棒，对吧？
And they are great together, aren't they?
确实如此。
They really are.
说真的，不开玩笑，他们俩之间化学反应特别强，真的，确实如此。
Honest to God, no pun intended, but they have great chemistry together, They those really, they truly do.
她人很甜。
She's real sweet.
就像我在另一个播客里提到的，她也是通过Bialy和Thomas——我们的选角导演Sharon Bialy和Sherry Thomas——推荐给我们的。
She's, like I mentioned in another podcast, again, came to us, Bialy and Thomas, our Sharon Bialy and Sherry Thomas, our wonderful casting ladies, turned us on to her.
我得承认，在她们把她带来之前，我对她完全不了解。
I have to admit, I'd never I was not familiar with her before they they brought her into us.
但天哪，Kristen真的很棒。
And boy, Kristen is great.
我记得她好像有自己的节目了。
Now I believe she has her own show.
是的。
She does.
我记得有个衍生剧，名字我忘了，但在CW台播。
I think we spin off of I don't forget the title, but it's on the CW.
《绯闻女孩》的衍生剧。
Spin off of The Gossip Girl.
对，她会主演那部剧。
Yeah, she's gonna star in it.
我觉得她会主演。
I think she's gonna star in it.
反正她应该主演，不管是什么剧，因为她有这个实力。
Well, should star in it, whatever it is, because she's got the chops.
我觉得她会成为明星。
I think she's gonna be a star.
看到演员们这么快就把这些场景演出来，而且演得这么好，真的很了不起。
Well, it really is something to see the the cast put these how quickly they put these scenes together and how great they are.
其实，我最喜欢他们两个的第一场戏，但整集里我最爱的是最后那场，他们在调情，聊杰西的新床。
Actually, my I I love the first scene with the of the two of them, but my my favorite scene is the one at the very end of the episode where they're flirting about Jesse's Jesse's new bed.
哦，我们开始看到，你知道，我们开始看到他的公寓慢慢布置起来了。
Oh, that's We're starting to see, you know, we're starting to see we're starting to see his his apartment kinda come together here.
对。
Yeah.
它确实让整个房间看起来更协调了。
It really pulled the room together.
是的。
Yes.
确实如此。
It did.
确实如此。
It did.
那张床。
The bed.
而且，你知道，我就是觉得，我真的很喜欢他们俩走到一起的方式。
And, you know, I I I just found it I just really liked how they got together.
那真是太好了，我记得当时还小抓狂了一下，我说这床非得是特大号不可。
That was a great I remember having some little minor freak out about I said it has to be goddamn king sized.
我还以为是双人加大号之类的。
I thought it was a queen-size or something.
其实是反过来的。
It's the other way around.
或者我记得是你要求
Or I think you asked for
要双人加大号，结果送来的是特大号，反正就这样吧。
a queen and was a king or well anyway.
其实更像是双人标准号，
It's like a full,
我觉得。
I think.
如果不是的话，那我
If not, I'm
不太确定。
not sure.
这说明我们有多在意细节，你知道吗，我们就是靠细节来指导的。
Shows you the level that we, you know, this we're taught by detail.
这些细节就是我们赖以生存的关键。
These these are the details that we live and die on.
床是特大号还是大号？
Is the bed a king-size or a queen-size?
对。
Yeah.
光这个争论就能耗掉整个下午。
You can kill a whole afternoon with that argument.
然后，除非我们去吃午饭，那又得花三个小时，我
Then, unless we go to lunch, that takes another three I
一直坚持要水床。
kept arguing for a water bed.
水床挺好的。
And water bed is good.
我们在《X档案》里给穆德配了一张水床。
We gave Mulder a water bed on The X Files.
那部剧我们拍了九年，头几年是这样的。
For the first we did nine years on that show.
前五六年甚至七年，我们都没拍过他的卧室。
For the first five or six or even seven years, we never showed his bedroom.
后来才给他配了张水床。
And then we gave him a waterbed.
所以我当时觉得，自己没法好好弄个水床。
So I didn't feel like I could properly do a waterbed.
然后水床就坏了。
And then it broke.
《X档案》里什么都拍过了。
Everything's been done on The X Files.
这就是我在我们剧组学到的东西之一。
That's what that's one of the things I've learned from working on our show.
不过我得说，彼得，剧里我最喜欢的场景之一就是沃尔特真正跟汉克说话的那段。
Well, I gotta say though, Peter, one of my very favorite scenes in the show is when Walt actually talks to Hank.
我真的非常喜欢。
I really, really liked it.
还有
And one
我最喜欢的片段之一，里面有一句我特别喜欢的台词，就是让他去狠狠地踢生活的屁股。
of my favorite it's got one of my favorite pieces of dialogue and it just tells him to, you know, kick life in the ass.
对。
Yeah.
但我真的很喜欢那句台词，基本上就是说，你和我之间没有真正的经验重叠之类的。
But my I I really love the line where basically said, you know, you and I don't have really experiential overlap or something like that.
我当时就想，哦，那可不一定。
I was like, oh, you'd be surprised.
那场戏确实很棒。
That is a great scene.
你当时也在
You were there that
场，对吧？
day, right?
我那天在场。
I was there that day.
那场戏对我来说也很有成就感，因为我在第一季最后一集里还写过另一场沃尔特和汉克的戏，就是他们抽雪茄、讨论什么合法什么不合法的那个场景。
That was rewarding to me also because I had written another scene between Walt and Hank from the first season, the last episode where they the cigar scene where they're talking about what's legal and what's not legal.
对。
Yeah.
但我没能到现场。
And I didn't get to be there.
我当时在罢工纠察线上。
I was I was I was on a picket line
没错。
That's right.
当时拍那场戏的时候
When that was
我在拍。
shot.
对。
That's right.
而这次，我终于能到现场看他们俩一起演这场戏了。
And this time, I got to be there when these to watch these two guys work together on the scene.
那真的是
And it was really That was one of
我去年最喜欢的场景之一。
my favorite scenes of last year, actually.
就是那场戏，讨论什么合法什么不合法，拍得特别扎实。
That one there, that was a really solid scene, talking about what's legal.
因为这一切都始于汉克带了古巴雪茄去沃尔特的派对，这些雪茄在美国当然是违法的。
Because it all starts because Hank has brought Cuban cigars to to to Walt's party, which are, of course, illegal in The United States.
而且，你知道，关于什么是合法的这条线。
And, you know, the line of what's legal.
它总是在变化。
And it's always shifting.
什么是合法的？
What's legal?
什么是违法的？
What's illegal?
那场戏拍得不错。
That was a good scene.
是的。
Yeah.
而这场戏呢，虽然不是紧接着那场，但有点让人想起那个场景。
And this scene is is a a is good it's not an immediate follow-up or anything like that, but it's sort of reminiscent of that.
这两个人算是彼此坦诚相待了。
These two guys sort of being honest with each other.
他们总是尽可能坦诚，就像沃尔特能做到的那样。
They're always honest as Walt can get.
他们的关系变了，你知道的。
Well, their relationships changed, you know.
是的。
Yeah.
是。
Are.
非常不一样，完全不一样了。
It's very it's it's different.
我是说，对我来说印象很深的一件事是，我们在做这一集的时候，我失眠得很厉害。
It's I mean, one of the things I that rings for me, I was having terrible insomnia while we were working on this episode.
哦，你紧张吗？
Oh, you nervous?
是啊，我当时整个人都快崩溃了。
Yeah, I was falling apart.
我失眠了。
I had insomnia.
所以那段关于凌晨三点醒来的台词，完全就是我的亲身经历。
And so that whole line about waking up 03:00 in the morning, that was all right out of my life.
所以最后能呈现出来，我真的很开心。
So I was really happy that that ended up coming through.
当然，布莱恩念台词的方式——让他来演绎你写的、对你有意义的对白，你会觉得，哇。
Of course, way Brian reads the line, he he to have him do dialogue that you've written that means something to you, you feel like, wow.
那才是我真正的感受。
That's how I really feel.
为什么我就不能那样表达自己呢？
Why can't I express myself that way?
而这正是其中的乐趣所在，你做到了。
And that's part of the joy of You did, though.
我确实做到了。
I I did.
但是，你知道，为什么我不能……为什么……
But, you know, why why can't Why
你不能在市场上做到吗？
can't you do it at market?
我听起来像那样，然后意识到。
I sound like that and realize.
你知道为什么吗？
You know why?
因为如果那些话能像从你电脑里打出来一样轻松地从你嘴里说出来，你就会感到足够满足，以至于不需要写作了。
Because if you were that if the words rolled off your tongue that easily as they roll out of your computer, you'd be satisfied enough that you wouldn't need to write.
因此，你就不会写作了，而是去H&R Block之类的地方工作了。
And therefore, you wouldn't be writing, and you'd be off working at H and R Block or something like that.
在H&R Block工作也没什么不好。
Nothing wrong with working at H and R Block.
我不是这个意思。
That's not my point.
H&R Block的那些好人。
The fine people at H and R Block.
那些好人——不，对。
The fine people no, yeah.
我的意思是，作家这个群体，你跟他们待在一起，很难找到比他们更不快乐的人了。
My point being that writers are not the happiest lot you can ever find yourselves in the company of.
他们并不是特别开心。
Are not particularly super happy.
我记得去年好像看到过一句话，说的是，你知道，作家每天早上都干什么？
I think I read like some quote last year about something like, you know, what what do writers do every morning?
你起床，然后就像给自己放血一样。
You get up and you just open a vein or something like that.
就是，你知道，写作。
Just, you know, write.
我的意思是，就像那种感觉，使劲往脑门上撞，直到血滴到纸上。
I mean, you just kind of like It feels that bang against your forehead until the blood's blood drops on the paper.
我不明白为什么会这样。
I don't know why it should be that way.
确实有那种感觉。
It does feel that way.
然后你会发现自己变得很沮丧，心想，我得割开血管。
And then you catch yourself feeling all mopey and like, you know, I have to open a vein.
我得把脑子里的秘密都倾泻到纸上。
I have to let out the secret contents of my brain under the page.
你知道吗，我要把这些分享给全世界。
You know, I I'm a share this with the world.
其实你只是在讲故事而已。
It's just you're just telling stories.
别太较真了。
It's just don't get all bent out of shape about it.
不过，我也说不准。
And yet, I don't know.
反正就那样吧。
It's just whatever.
我来问问你们，咱们播客又聊到哲学层面了，这总是免不了。
Let me ask you guys also, getting into, like, the philosophical part of our podcast, which always happens.
沃尔特变得相当强势了。
Walt is getting pretty aggressive.
他越来越咄咄逼人，尤其是对杰西。
He's getting very, very aggressive, especially with Jesse.
之前也有过，我记得在第二季第五集里，他让杰西自己去处理。
Happened before, I think in episode two zero five when he tells Jesse to handle it.
现在他又说，我们遇到麻烦了。
And now he's also, we've got a problem.
巴杰被抓了。
Badger has been arrested.
杰西根本不知道，而且你甚至能看出来，杰西在打电话的时候——我觉得是打给康博——他说‘别替他掩护，兄弟’。
Jesse didn't know and Jesse, you you can even tell when Jesse is on the phone, I think to Combo and he says, don't cover for him, man.
能看出来他全是在沃尔特面前演戏，但他发现真相后，又不敢告诉沃尔特，诸如此类的事情。
Can tell that it's all an act that he's doing for Walt but he finds out he's afraid to tell him and stuff like that.
但沃尔特对杰西越来越咄咄逼人，可以说，沃尔特正在逼着杰西改变。
But Walt is becoming quite aggressive on the offense with Jesse and saying you know, I mean Walt is making Jesse change.
对。
Yeah.
这确实就像跷跷板一样，来回摇摆。
Well it really is a seesaw that goes back and forth.
你知道，在第二季第五集里，杰西还挺强势的，第一次直呼他‘沃尔特’。
Where you know, in 02/2005 Jesse was kind of laying down the law and calls him Walt for the first time.
对。
Yeah.
然后呢，他又经历了他那些破事。
And then you know he goes through what he goes through.
我觉得那是我唯一一次看到他那样。
I think that's the only time that I've ever seen him.
我不知道他以前有没有做过。
I don't know if he's done it before.
对。
Yeah.
确实，而且沃尔特让他为此付出了代价。
It's certainly And boy, Walt made him pay for that
一次。
one.
是的。
Yeah.
他确实付出了。
He sure did.
然后，
And then,
你知道，但我刚才那个想法没了。
you know but the I've I've lost that thought.
不过，这让我想到最近一直在琢磨的一件事。
But it's, you know, it's, you know, this leads me to think of something I'm thinking about a lot lately.
我是说，我们对这一季的走向感到非常自豪。
I mean, we're so proud of where this season goes.
但你知道吗，这听起来可能有点玄乎，但沃尔特这个角色，至少在我看来，是他自己写出来的。
But you know, in some ways, this sounds like a hippie dippie thing to say, but Walt writes himself, at least in my mind.
不只是沃尔特，还有斯凯勒、杰西、玛丽、汉克、小沃尔特，只要你仔细听，他们都会告诉你。
Not just Walt, but Skyler, Jesse, Marie, Hank, Walt Jr, they all tell you if you listen closely enough.
换句话说，如果我们编剧们坐在一起，长时间地讨论这些角色，他们多多少少会告诉你他们该往哪儿走。
In other words, if we writers sit in a room long enough and talk about the characters long enough to one another, the characters kinda sorta tell you where they need to go.
至少感觉上是这样。
At least it feels that way.
他们让我很意外。
They surprised me.
对。
Yeah.
他们让我很意外。
They surprised me.
我是说，当沃尔特和杰西绑架索尔的时候，我真的很震惊。
I mean, I was stunned when when Walt and Jesse kidnapped Saul.
那件事就是其中之一。
That was that was one of those things.
那件事就是那种，你知道，我们基本上把他们逼到了绝境。
It was one of those, you know, we had we had basically backed them into a corner.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
而且，你知道，当时我们想出了无数种他们可能采取的行动。
And, you know, we had come up with 55,000,000 things that they could do at that point.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
And Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
然后他们最后居然拿枪把人给绑了。
And then they end up they end up kidnapping the guy at gunpoint.
但我很喜欢
But I love
那个场景。
that scene.
好吧，说说——抱歉，我打断一下。
Well, talk talk about how I'm sorry.
把话说完。
Finish your sentence.
就像开始说西班牙语一样。
Like starting to speak Spanish.
那挺好的。
That's great.
嗯，我觉得我们当时在想的是，这一季确实很黑暗。
Well, you know, I think part of part I think one of the things that on our minds was that the the season is really this is a dark season.
发生了很多非常沉重的事情。
There's a lot of very heavy heavy stuff happening.
我们
We
不是故意的，但结果就是这样。
Not on purpose, but it's sort of turned out that way.
这是……嗯，这是自然而然的。
It's it's a well, it's it's it's organic.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，它
Well, it
它也是没办法。
it kinda had to.
而这一集，我觉得在基调上，它有点不太一样。
And this episode, I think this episode kind of is is tonally, it was a little bit a little bit different.
对。
Yeah.
它稍微轻松了一点。
It was a little bit And a little bit lighter.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得我们很努力地让它既保持剧集的感觉，又显得合适，同时这一集也稍微轻松一些，尤其是考虑到我们现在的处境。
And that was something that I think we worked really hard to still make it feel like the show and feel right, but also go a little bit lighter for this episode, especially considering where Well, we're
跟你说，我特别喜欢这种轻松的感觉。
tell you, I love the lightness.
我特别喜欢这里的幽默感。
I love the humor.
轻松这个词可能不太准确，也许不是。
Lightness, maybe the word, maybe not.
但我真的很喜欢这一集的幽默。
But I love the humor of this episode.
不过我跟你说，如果有人不是为了幽默来看的，那场拯救一切的戏——这么说有点奇怪。
But I tell you, anyone who's not in it for the humor, that scene that saves it all that's a weird way to put it.
你这一集根本不需要拯救，你做得太棒了。
There's nothing here that needs saving in your episode you did such a great job on.
但刚才我们聊到的那场沃尔特和汉克的戏，真的很严肃，我很喜欢那场戏的深度。
But that scene we were talking about a minute ago with Walt and Hank, that's a pretty serious love the thoughtfulness of that scene.
那场戏你处理得非常好。
You did a great job on that scene.
好吧，这有什么了不起的，我是说，咱们可以稍微自夸一下。
Well, what's so great I mean, that's here, we'll pat ourselves on the back for a minute.
但我喜欢这部剧的一点就是，你永远不知道剧情会往哪个方向发展，你知道吗？
But one of the things I like about the show is that you just you don't know which way it's going You know?
而且总是有一种曲折变化的感觉。
And there's and there's always that there's always this kind of zigzag.
对。
Yeah.
而且我每次都会被它惊讶到。
That and and I'm always surprised by it.
我是说，有些情节真的让我目瞪口呆。
I mean, I've been stunned by some of the
发生的事情。
things that have happened.
说说那天有多冷吧，就是他们绑架了索尔，然后在外面挖了个浅坟的那场戏。
Talk about how cold it was that day that that scene where they're they've kidnapped Saul and they've got the shallow grave out there.
哦。
Oh.
离Q有多远？再说一遍，大概半英里左右。
How far was it from Q that was within again, within about a half mile.
对吧？
Right?
对。
Yeah.
这又是，这又是，这离Q工作室很近，我们就在Q工作室附近，但Q工作室基本上是在沙漠里。
This is this is again, this is this is this is close we're staying close to Q Studios, but there was Q Studios is out in the desert, essentially.
对。
Yeah.
导演特里·麦克多诺找到了这个地点，沙漠里有一个巨大的凹陷，我觉得是之前为了某个项目挖出来的。
And Terry McDonough, the director, he scouted this location, which is, like, a huge there was a huge depression in the desert that had been, I think, dug out for for some perp.
他们打算在那里盖房子，或者建个地下储罐之类的。
They're gonna build houses or or an underground tank or something.
于是我们找到了这个绝佳的地点，决定至少在所谓的“黄金时刻”拍摄开头部分，也就是太阳刚落山、天空还留有一丝余晖的时候。
And so we found this wonderful place, and we decided to shoot at least the beginning of it at what we call magic hour, which is just when the sun sets and there's still a little bit of light in the sky.
然后
And
那些是远景镜头。
Those are the wide shots.
对。
Yes.
那些是远景镜头。
Those are the wide shots.
而且我觉得那些镜头拍出来效果非常惊艳。
And and so the and I think those came out just spectacular.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
迈克·斯洛维斯。
Mike Slovis.
太棒了
Great
干得漂亮。
job.
那天天气温暖宜人，阿尔伯克基的天气一直很好。
It was a beautiful warm day, and it had the the weather had been great in Albuquerque.
结果我们一进场，正式开始拍这场戏的时候，突然刮起了风。
And then suddenly, as soon as we came in and really started shooting the scene, the wind started.
风卷起沙子，沙子钻进设备里，灯架也开始倒了。
And it it kicked up sand, and the sand got into the equipment, and lights started falling over.
他们给视频监视器搭的小帐篷直接被吹飞了。
And the little tent they have for the for the video monitors went flying.
而且不只是沙子在空中飞。
And it was but it wasn't just sand going through the air.
还特别冷。
It was cold.
冷得要命，沙子还直往演员眼睛里飞，天哪。
It was freezing cold, and it was throwing sand in the actors' eyes Oh, man.
所有人的鼻子里、嘴里都是沙子。
In everybody's up their noses, in their mouths.
阿尔伯克基的剧组人员突然都掏出了护目镜。
And the Albuquerque crew all suddenly produced goggles.
从洛杉矶来的人一个护目镜都没有。
Anybody who was in from LA had no goggles.
所以我们很多人都在问，你们这护目镜哪儿来的？
And so it's it's so a lot of us were asking, so where'd you get the goggles?
后来我和特里只好挤在房车里，是的。
But so Terry and I ended up huddling inside the RV Yeah.
通过一个小监视器看着外面的情况。
Watching watching this over a little monitor.
互相取暖吗？
Each other for warmth?
对。
Yeah.
就是这样。
That's it.
嗯，然后那个
Well and then the
但是那个阿诺瓦的戏。
but the play to Arnova.
就像某种
It was like some kind
戏。
of play.
我也不清楚。
I don't know.
但整个剧组，那三个人在外面，每次拍摄间隙，大家都在吐沙子，从耳朵、眼睛里往外掏沙子，到处都是。
And the but the the whole cast, the the three the three of them out there, they were in between each take, there was a lot of spitting and pulling sand out of their ears and their eyes and everything.
但关键是，我从没听到过一句抱怨。
And but the the thing was I never heard a single complaint.
是的。
Yeah.
无论是剧组人员还是演员，都没人抱怨过。
Never heard on the crew or anybody in the cast.
而且，你知道吗，当我们看到那场戏的样片时，我特别高兴，因为你能清楚地看到风在呼啸。
And boy and, know, I I was so glad when we saw the dailies of the scene that you can actually see the wind whipping around.
对。
Yeah.
还有一件事，我——
And one of the things I
那可不是鼓风机吹出来的风。
That was not a wind machine.
那确实不是鼓风机吹的。
That was not a wind machine.
鲍勃在拍那场戏之前还挺担心的。
And Bob was concerned before the scene shot.
他说，能不能弄个鼓风机来，让我的头发飘起来？
He said, know, can we get a wind machine so that my hair flaps around?
对。
Yeah.
因为他想让头发飞起来。
Because he he wanted he wanted his hair to fly around.
结果呢，他的头发自己就飞起来了，根本用不着鼓风机。
Man, his hair is flying we didn't need a wind machine.
那头发飘得跟疯了一样。
That that hair is flying around like crazy.
我特别喜欢，但不知道那是什么。
I love I don't know what it is.
不知道是化妆效果，还是真的就在他鼻子底下贴了什么东西。
I don't know if it's makeup or if it's just really just smack underneath his nose.
但我就是喜欢特写镜头里他鼻子底下那块亮亮的区域。
But I love that shiny patch under his nose in the close ups.
这值得在大银幕上看。
It's worth seeing on a big screen.
确实。
It is.
不过那场戏里那几个家伙演得真棒。
But those guys were great in that scene.
我真庆幸那晚我不在场。
I'm so glad I wasn't there that night.
听起来就够受罪的。
It just sounded miserable.
你确实该庆幸。
You should be.
那是我们为这集拍的最后一个镜头，也就是——
That was the last thing we shot for the episode, which was
哦，是吗？
Oh, it was?
那是最后一段？
That was the last bit?
是的。
Yes.
哦，好吧。
Oh, okay.
嗯，还有一件事想问你们。
Well, one more thing I wanted to ask you guys about.
我记得读这一集的时候，觉得挺有意思的，因为你们用了那种比较传统的‘挡在他们前面’的手法，就是那种调包计，关于那个毒品的大调包。
I remember when I read this episode, it's funny because you guys have used kind of a conventional get in front of them, you know, kind of a bait and switch kind of thing going on with with the the the drug, you know, the the the big swap.
对。
Yeah.
大调包。
The big swap.
但几周前我在混音时看到它，当时真的挺惊喜的，因为它完全不像那种老套的套路。
But I remember seeing it a few weeks ago at the mix and I've been I remember being really pleasantly surprised because it does not come off.
它一点都不像那些常规的桥段。
It doesn't come off like one of these conventional ones.
真的挺好的。
It's really nice.
而且其中一个亮点是，我很喜欢你选的音乐。
And one of the nice things too about it is I love the music choice that you made.
说到音乐选择，我跟你说，我们真是太幸运了。
Music choice, I tell you, we are so blessed.
我们有戴夫·波特，他是我们的作曲，专门为我们写原创音乐，做得特别棒。
We've got Dave Porter, who's our composer, who does who who writes original music for us and does a wonderful job.
还有托马斯·古尔德。
And we've got Thomas Gould.
我们都叫他托马斯·G，因为他的姓我都不确定自己念得对不对。
Thomas G, we call him because his last name I'm not sure I'm even getting it right.
不过托马斯·G，他真是个行家，特别擅长找歌，找那些已有的歌曲。
But Thomas G, who is real pro at he's he's so good at finding songs, existing songs.
他是个DJ，在来我们这儿之前，还当过《六尺之下》的音乐总监。
He's a DJ, and he also was the music supervisor on Six Feet Under before he came to work with us.
他找到了一首歌，我现在一时想不起名字了，但他找到了——在他为我们找的很多好歌里——就是我们在毒品交易那场戏里用的那首。
And he found a song, and I'm drawing a blank now on the name, but he found, among many other wonderful songs he finds for us, he found that song that we use in the dope deal scene.
我跟你说，你说得对。
And I tell you, you're right.
我完全同意，凯莉。
I agree completely, Kelley.
因为之前我们听了戴夫为那场戏写的很棒的音乐提示，觉得已经很好了。
It was like because we had heard a wonderful cue Dave had written for it, we're like, that's really good.
然后呢，我们就说，听听托马斯发来的这首歌吧。
And then, well, let's listen to this song Thomas sent us.
一听，我们都惊呆了。
And then we're like, holy crap.
你知道吗？
You know?
这完全就是那种你根本预料不到的事情。
It totally kinda it it it's it's one of those things where it just you're not expecting it.
这部剧里很多地方都是这样，你完全猜不到接下来会发生什么。
It's so many it's like so many things on this show where, you know, you just you just don't expect it.
它就是不按常理出牌。
It goes against the grain.
我是说，对。
I mean Mhmm.
你知道吗，我真的很喜欢托马斯带来的很多音乐选择，因为是的。
You know, it's it's I really like a lot of the music choices that Thomas brings in because Yeah.
它们完全不是你会在那种场景里预料到的。
They just totally are not what you expect on that kind of thing.
他的品味很好。
He's got great taste.
那两个人都是。
Both those guys.
他和戴夫两个人
He and Dave both
都
have
品味很好。
great taste.
最后你还想提一下文斯，关于阿兹特克的事。
You were gonna mention also a little bit, Vince, just in closing about the Aztec.
我们之前聊了一点沃尔特·卡尔的事。
We were talking a little bit about Walt Carr.
我们可以专门做一期播客来聊阿兹特克。
We could we could do a whole podcast on the Aztec.
不过，是的，说得好。
But but, yes, a good point.
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