音乐疗法

大家好。

Greetings, everyone.

我是马特·考夫曼，《掰面包》播客的主持人和制作人。

This is Matt Kaufman, host and producer of the Breaking Bread podcast.

很高兴你们能收听，我对本期播客的内容感到非常兴奋。

I'm so glad for you to be along, and I'm very excited for the content that I have for you in this podcast.

我对音频效果不太满意。

I'm less than satisfied with the audio.

我想先承认这一点并请求你们的谅解，因为我在制作这期播客时遇到了一些技术问题。

I wanna acknowledge that upfront and ask for your forgiveness as I ran into some technical difficulties while creating this podcast.

但我相信如果你们能忽略一些音质问题，这期播客会给你们带来收获。

But I do believe if you can overlook some of the audio, you will be blessed by this podcast.

感谢收听。

Thanks for being on.

毕业后我曾在丹维尔退伍军人事务部实习，当时服务过一位99岁的老兵。

I was interning right after school at the VA in Danville, and I was working with a veteran who was 99.

他曾参加过二战，患有严重的创伤后应激障碍和噩梦。

He had served in World War two, and he had really bad PTSD and nightmares.

他告诉我，在我之前的实习生也和他一起工作过。

And so he was telling me that the intern before me was working with him also.

他们共同创作了一首歌，讲述他的经历和那些噩梦。

And they they wrote a song together about his experiences and about about his nightmares.

他反复做一个噩梦，那是他服役期间的一段记忆。

He had a reoccurring nightmare of a memory that had happened back in back when he was in the service.

于是他们为那段记忆创作了一首歌。

And so they they wrote a song about that memory.

在她写完那首歌后，当他们一起唱这首歌时，他的噩梦停止了。

And after she wrote that song and after they they would sing it together, his nightmares stopped.

他向我证实，他再也没有做过那些噩梦。

And he he attested to me that he did not have those nightmares anymore.

真有意思。

Interesting.

他对此欣喜若狂。

And and he was over over the moon about it.

欢迎大家收听《共进面包》，这是由使徒基督教咨询与家庭服务中心为您带来的播客节目。

Welcome everyone to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services.

我是马特·考夫曼。

I'm Matt Kaufman.

很高兴大家能和我们在一起。

Excellent to have everyone with us.

我这里有两位嘉宾。

I've got two guests here with me.

其中一位需要简单介绍一下，艾萨克·芬克。

One needs a little introduction, Isaac Funk.

欢迎今天的嘉宾艾萨克，以及尼克·兰兹。

Welcome today, Isaac, and Nick Lands.

尼克，欢迎你。

Nick, welcome.

很高兴今天你们能来办公室。

Great to have you in the office today.

谢谢。

Thank you.

能来这里很棒。

It's great to be here.

尼克·兰兹几个月前来和我们团队分享过他在音乐治疗方面的工作。

Nick Lands came and shared with our staff a couple months back about the work he does in music therapy.

这真的非常有趣。

And it was really intriguing.

艾萨克，你是搞音乐的。

Isaac, you're a music guy.

特别有意思。

Super intriguing.

这也是我们团队在努力的方向——让大家更好地了解现有的各种治疗方式，包括心理健康、人际关系健康和情绪健康方面的资源。

And it was out of a little bit of an effort that we have here as a staff to just have good wherewithal about therapy, about mental health, relational health, emotional health that's out there for people.

然后这真的触动了我。

And then it really struck me.

我觉得我们在音乐方面有着美妙的交集。

I think we have this beautiful overlap with music.

对吧？

Right?

首先，作为使徒基督徒，我们某种程度上就是做音乐的。

One, as apostolic Christians, we kind of do music.

所以尼克，正如你分享的，我当时在想，老兄，这真是值得深入挖掘的东西。

So Nick, as you shared, I was thinking, man, this is really something to tap into.

对吧？

Right?

我们...我们，你知道的，我们是听着音乐、创作音乐长大的。

We are we we, you know, we grow up listening to music and making music.

所以这是其中一个方面。

And so that was one aspect.

然后你还有基督教制作音乐的传统，我觉得我们可以就此长篇大论一番，基督教确实是一个真正重视音乐的宗教。

And then you just have the Christian tradition of music making, which I think we could pontificate about that for a long ways that that the Christian religion is is one religion that really, really does music.

就像，这已经编织进了人类的基本框架中。

Like, that is knit into the framework of of a human being.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以它能带来情感、心理和人际关系上的健康，这就像是，嗯，没错。

And so that it would bring emotional and mental and relational health was kind of like a, well, yeah.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我想是的。

I guess so.

尼克，介绍一下你自己。

Nick, introduce yourself.

告诉我们你来自哪里。

Tell us where you hail from.

告诉我们你在做什么。

Tell us what you're doing.

告诉我们你正在学习和实践的内容。当然。

Tell us what what you're you're studying and now practicing Sure.

特别是在治疗方面。

As it as it regards therapy.

我来自俄亥俄州，在阿克伦出生长大。

So I am from Ohio, born and raised in Akron.

从小在里特曼教堂长大。

Went to the Ritman Church growing up.

我的音乐背景可以追溯到我大概五岁，快六岁的时候。

And my music background goes all the way back to I think I was five, almost six.

我向父母要了一把小号作为圣诞礼物。

I asked my parents for a trumpet for Christmas.

他们以为我指的是玩具小号，所以就给我买了个玩具小号。

And they they thought I was, you know, meant they they they thought I meant a toy trumpet, they so they bought me a toy trumpet.

不是这样的。

Like, no.

我想要一个我想要

I wanted a I wanted

一把真正的喇叭。

a real trumpet.

所以你

So You

还好。

were fine.

我没事。

I was fine.

是的。

Yeah.

他打开了它

He opened it

然后哭了起来。

and cried.

是啊。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

我当时就懵了，这是什么？

I was like, what is this?

总之就是这样。

So yeah.

那都是很久以前的事了。

That was a long time ago.

只有些模糊的记忆。

Have vague vague memories.

于是他们带我去了乐器店，店员说只要他能吹响，就能演奏。

So they took me to this music store and the guy was like, if he can blow it, he can play.

他可以学。

He can learn.

所以我就...嗯。

And so I yeah.

我大约六岁开始学习小号。

I started taking lessons around six years old in trumpet.

吹了将近二十年的小号。

Played trumpet for close to twenty years.

结婚后不久我就放弃了，这有点遗憾，但实在是没时间继续了。

I I quit soon after I got married which is kind of sad but just didn't have time for it anymore.

不过在这个过程中

But along the way

杰克·娜塔莉没让你放弃吗？

Jack Natalie didn't make you quit?

没有。

No.

她没有让我放弃。

She did not.

嗯，我得说当我订婚时，我的音乐成绩确实大幅下滑了。

I got Well, I I will say that when I got engaged, my my music grades deteriorated significantly.

所以我要说，我爱你，亲爱的。

So I will say, I love you, honey.

不过没错，所以我

But yes, so I

既然我提到了她的名字，你也该介绍一下你的妻子。

Since I dropped her name, you could introduce your wife too.

哦，对。

Oh, yes.

我的妻子是娜塔莉。

So I My wife is Natalie.

她也来自俄亥俄州，在史密斯维尔长大。

She also is from Ohio, grew up in grew up in Smithville.

所有AC们注意了，她正在参加五月舞会。

All you ACs out there, she's in May Ball.

所以，你的小号生涯在结婚时结束了？

So so the trumpet career ended at marriage?

小号生涯确实在结婚时结束了。

Trumpet career ended at marriage.

大概在我十岁或十一岁的时候，我开始自学钢琴，学会了弹钢琴。

Somewhere along the way, I want to say I was maybe 10 or 11, I started teaching myself piano, learned piano.

上了几年钢琴课。

Took took lessons for a couple years.

我的钢琴老师同时也是我的小号老师。

My instructor was also my trumpet instructor.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

她是个很棒的小号老师，但钢琴教学就不太擅长了。

And she was a great trumpet instructor, not like her as a piano instructor.

所以我就不再上课了。

So I stopped taking lessons.

我就自己摸索着学。

I just kind of taught myself.

如果找到喜欢的歌曲，我就自学。

And if I found a song that I liked, I learned it.

比如《枫叶拉格》。

Like Maple Leaf Rag.

嗯。

Yeah.

是啊。

That's Yeah.

是其中

Was one

最早学会的曲子之一

of the first songs You know,

我父亲以前常弹《枫叶拉格》。

my dad used to play Maple Leaf Rag.

它是

It was

非常有趣。

such a fun.

那是

That was

是啊。

yeah.

确实。

It's yes.

这是一首非常适合聚会的精彩歌曲。

A fantastic song for gatherings.

这是个绝妙的方式让大家活跃起来。

It's a great way to great way to get people up and going.

是啊。

And yeah.

所以你弹钢琴是为了

So did piano for

那么拉格泰姆和爵士乐，是你特别喜欢的音乐类型吗？

So was rag and jazz, like, that a genre that you gravitated toward?

还是单纯因为它特别有趣？

Or it's just a super fun place?

确实是这样的。

It was actually.

嗯，倒也不是特别偏爱。

Well, not particularly.

当时的情况是，我学了《枫叶拉格》和《演艺家》这些曲子。

Like, at the time, it was like, I learned Maple Leaf Rag and the entertainer.

嗯。

Yeah.

后来我经历了一个阶段，有本厚厚的拉格泰姆曲集，我试着学习但之后就没怎么深入了。

And then I had a phase where I had this big book of rags, I and would try and learn but I never got into it much after that.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以它

So it

其实就那两首。

was really just those two.

对。

Yeah.

所以我开始尝试弹更多曲子，比如不知道你熟不熟悉《你的心河》。

And so I I kinda got into playing more I'm trying to oh, like, don't know if you're familiar with River Flows In You.

更舒缓的那种音乐。

More calming type of music.

我学过这首。

I learned that.

后来上大学时，我才真正开始接受古典音乐训练。

And then when I got into college, I actually was started training classically.

那时我跟随一位钢琴教授学习，逐渐深入古典音乐领域，练习了一些贝多芬和肖邦的作品，那些浪漫主义风格的曲子我特别喜欢。

So I had a I trained with a professor of piano and then got to get into classical music more and learned some some Beethoven and some Chopin, some good romantic style pieces which I loved.

是啊。

So yeah.

钢琴、吉他和喇叭是我的三大主要乐器，在教堂里我一路都在演唱。

So piano, guitar, and trumpet were my are my three big three big ones that I I sang all the way through just being in church.

进入大学后，我几乎整个本科和研究生阶段都参加了合唱团。

And then into when I got into college, was in choir for almost all the way through my college, undergraduate and graduate years.

因此我学会了相当不错的演唱技巧，这很棒，因为钢琴、吉他和声乐正是我最常用的三大乐器。

And so I learned to sing decently well and, which is great because piano, guitar, and voice are the three big instruments that I use.

听你讲述这些，我觉得你的音乐经历和我们大家都很相似。

I think your experience with music, even as I hear that, is similar to all of ours.

我们都很享受音乐。

We enjoy it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

非常有趣。

It's a lot of fun.

其中有享受的乐趣。

There is an enjoyment factor.

但在某个时刻，你开始意识到音乐实际上对心理健康、情绪健康和人际关系健康都有益处。嗯。

But at some point, you came to understand that there is actually a mental health, emotional health, relational health benefit Mhmm.

音乐能带来这些好处。

That music brings.

我是说，这正是音乐治疗所能提供的。

I mean, that's what music therapy has to offer.

我确定吗？

Am I Sure.

没错。

Exactly.

那是什么时候发生的？

When when did that happen?

那是在...我想大概是我大学三年级的时候。

That happened in I I would say I think it was my junior year of college.

当时我在Sherwin Williams（一家油漆店）独自工作。

I was working by myself at Sherwin Williams which is a paint store.

那天是阵亡将士纪念日之类的节日。

It was Memorial Day or something.

我总是会带上我圣诞节买的那台不错的Bose音响。

And I was I always used to bring my I had a nice Bose speaker that I bought for Christmas.

我会带着它播放很响的音乐。

And I would bring that in and play loud music.

那天正好我一个人值班，正在听《侏罗纪公园》的主题曲。

And so I happened to working by myself and I was listening to the Jurassic Park theme song.

小号演奏得太棒了。

Great trumpet.

很棒的小号声。

Great trumpet.

是的。

Yes.

听听约翰·威廉姆斯的作品。

Listen to John Williams.

各位听众，他是一位杰出的作曲家。

Everyone who's listening, he's a fantastic composer.

他创作了许多优秀的电影原声。

He writes a lot of great soundtracks from movies.

当时我正在听《侏罗纪公园》主题曲，音量开得很大，我的精神为之一振，那是一种前所未有的情感共鸣，或者说是我从未花时间去体会过的感受。

I was listening to the Jurassic Park theme song and it was I had it turn up really loud and I had I just my spirit soared and it was a it was an emotional response that I never had before or at least had never taken the time to process through before.

就在那时，我开始意识到音乐能引发怎样的情感共鸣，以及它如何影响人的情绪。

That's when I kind of realized just the emotional response you can get from music and how it can affect how it can affect your emotions.

而我希望自己也能为他人创造这样的体验。

And I wanted to be able to do that for for other people.

如果要你总结音乐疗法的功效，你会怎么说？

So if you were to synthesize what music therapy does, what would you say?

用一位教授曾告诉我的简单说法就是：音乐疗法通过音乐来实现非音乐的目标。

Well, to put in a very basic phrase that a professor told me once is music therapy uses music to accomplish non musical goals.

这些目标范围非常广泛。

So those goals are very broad.

从新生儿重症监护室的早产儿，到临终关怀和姑息治疗，都可以应用。

You can use it for premature infants in the NICU, neonatal intensive care unit, all the way up into hospice and palliative care.

因此它适用于广泛的人群。

So you can use it for a wide range of populations.

那么请列举一些音乐疗法能解决的具体非音乐目标。

So give us some tangible non musical goals that think therapy would address.

好的。

Sure.

我们就从心理健康开始讲吧，因为这是我目前工作的领域。

We'll start with mental health since that's where I work in now.

在心理健康领域，我们——或者说我主要关注的，是培养健康的应对技巧。

So for mental health, a lot of what we a lot of what I focus on is just developing healthy coping skills.

举个简单的目标，比如我们要培养一种健康的应对方式，或许我会教这位患者弹吉他来实现这个目的。

So a simple goal might be we're going to a healthy coping skill and maybe I'm going to teach this patient guitar to help him do that.

就像这样：

Be like, Okay.

每当你感到焦虑或开始生气时，我希望你能拿起吉他弹一小段，看看是否能帮你平静下来。

Whenever you're feeling anxious or whenever you're starting to feel angry, I want you to go to your guitar and play a little something and see if that helps calm you down.

明白吗？

Okay?

如果我们面对的是可能处于痴呆症阶段的老年人，目标可能就是单纯的记忆唤起。

If we're working with older adults who maybe are in the stages of dementia, it might just be memory recall.

比如遇到一位85岁的老人，我们可能会播放迪恩·马丁、弗兰克·西纳特拉或弗雷德·阿斯泰尔的歌曲，然后问：你喜欢这首歌对吧？

So if I have someone who's 85 years old, for example, maybe we'll play some Dean Martin or Frank, Frank Sinatra or, Fred Astaire and be like, okay, so like you like this song.

那你能跟我聊聊小时候听这首歌时在做什么吗？

So can Tell me about like what you did when you listened to this song back when you were a child or something.

比如，嗯，我当时正和朋友在街上闲逛看橱窗。

Like, well, I was walking down the street with my friend window shopping.

天哪。

Holy mackerel.

你是的。

You're Yeah.

85岁了，你几乎记不清早餐吃了什么。

85 years old and you can barely remember what you had for breakfast.

你知道吗？

You know what?

我是说，我们在养老院唱过歌。

I mean, but I mean, we've sang in nursing homes.

我明白，是的。

I mean, I get Yeah.

这是我们都有过的经历。

Something that we've all done.

音乐确实能连接人们，嗯哼。

And music connects Mhmm.

与那些短期记忆所剩无几的人产生共鸣。

With with a with a person who has very little short term memory.

是的。

Yes.

因此你实际上是在用音乐，以其他方式无法触及的形式，在那个人灵魂与记忆深处引发回响。

And so you're using music really to reverberate within that person's soul and memory in ways that cannot be accessed otherwise.

当然。

Sure.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

尼克，我得说圣经里的大卫可能是你心中的英雄吧。

Well, Nick, I would have to say that maybe David in the Bible is a hero of yours.

是啊。

Yeah.

确实如此。

Very much so.

我最近刚读了《撒母耳记》中大卫为扫罗弹琴、恶灵离去的那个章节。

I actually just read the chapter in Samuel where he started playing the harp for Saul and the eagle's spirit left.

我当时就想，没错。

I'm like, yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这绝对是。

That's definitely yeah.

我与大卫有很多共鸣，特别是他对音乐的运用，以及他经历的情感起伏，还有由此诞生的诗篇。

David I resonate with David a lot and especially his well, his use of music but also his the emotional roller coasters that he goes through and then the the Psalms that come from that.

我对此深有同感。

I can I can relate to that?

谈谈音乐类型。

Speak to genre.

我觉得这是音乐另一个迷人的地方。

I I think that's another fascinating thing with music.

对吧？

Right?

我们有歌。

We have a song.

我们有欢乐的歌。

We have a song for the glad.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

我们也有悲伤的歌。

We have a song for the sad.

这难道不神奇吗？

Isn't it amazing?

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

我们有给心怀希望者的歌。

We have a song for the hopeful.

我们有给身处困境者的歌。

We have a song for the distressed.

那个...那里有...我不太确定。

That There's there's I don't know.

那里确实有些东西。

There's something there.

我相信你对此思考良多。

I'm sure you thought a lot about that.

是的。

It's Yes.

这非常有趣。

It's it's very interesting.

我在学校学到的是，你知道吗，如果我有一个经常抑郁的病人，或者你认识抑郁的人，听抑郁的音乐反而能改善情绪。

Something I learned in school is, you know, if I have a patient who's depressed often time or if you have someone who's depressed playing depressing music can improve the mood.

通常这是因为听悲伤歌曲的人会觉得，啊，终于有人懂我了。

Usually, it's just because the person listening to this sad song is like, ah, here's someone else who gets it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

尤其在心理健康领域，有很多——我相信你也深有体会。

And especially in mental health, there's a lot and I'm sure you can you can testify to this.

但很多时候，仅仅陪伴某人待在他们的情绪低谷就很有意义。

But there's a lot to be said for just sitting with someone in the spot that they're at.

所以音乐有这么多不同情绪类型对心理健康太棒了，因为你能从歌词或旋律中找到太多共鸣。

And so the fact that there's so many different moods of music is fantastic for mental health because you can find so much in the lyrics or just in the the the music of the song.

就像，好吧，你现在你感觉很抑郁。

It's like, okay, you're feeling depressed.

0来，我们坐下来听听这个吧。

Here's let's let's just sit and listen to this.

你会觉得，哦，这个人懂我的感受。

And you can be like, oh, this is someone who knows what I'm going through.

我能感同身受。

I can relate to this.

这会带来更强的归属感。

And it's brings more of a sense of belonging.

当你快乐时也是同样的道理。

Same thing same thing when you're happy.

那...你连接的是什么？

And and what are you connected?

让我们...让我们正确开始。

Let's let's start right.

就到这里吧。

Stop there.

好的。

Sure.

因为我认为这种黑暗音乐的概念

Because I think this concept of of dark music.

对吧？

Right?

一个人在黑暗的地方听着黑暗音乐

And a person in a dark place in a dark music.

稍微填补一下那个空间

Fill that space out a little bit.

既是你正在聆听的内容

Both what you're listening for.

你如何评估与那个人共度的时光在这种音乐类型中是有意义的

How you would evaluate time with that person to be meaningful in that with that genre.

你会让他们继续沉浸在这种音乐类型中吗？

And do you leave them there in that genre as well?

我只是有点好奇想看到一个更大的故事线

I'm just kind of curious to see a larger arc.

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Yes.

你看，你绝对不想一直待在那个状态里。

You see, you definitely don't want to stay in that in that spot.

你也不想强行把他们从那种状态中拉出来，如果他们自己还没准备好离开的话。

You also don't want to try and push them out of that spot if they don't want to be out of there yet.

这是一种微妙的平衡。

It's it's an interesting interesting balance.

是啊。

Yeah.

根据我有限的经验，我发现只要让他们知道你在那段抑郁时期陪伴着他们就够了。

In my limited experience, I've found that they just know that you're there to be with them in that depressing time.

一旦他们感受到你的关心，就会更愿意倾听你的话。

Once they know you care, they're a little more willing to to listen to you.

好的。

Okay.

我们怎样才能帮你走出这种状态？

Let's How can we bring you up out of this?

是的。

Yeah.

但你首先得让他们知道你愿意

But you first have to let them know that you're willing

陪伴他们在这种情境下播放音乐的具体价值是什么？

to sit with What them is the what is the tangible value that the music is playing in that setting?

你，那个人，然后还有这第三者——音乐。

You, that person, and then there's this third person, music.

嗯。

Mhmm.

贝多芬说过类似的话：音乐诉说着人类灵魂无法言表的言语。

Beethoven said something along the lines of music speaks the words that the human soul cannot convey.

类似这样的话。

Something like that.

是的。

Yeah.

因此它让人能够表达那些他们甚至找不到合适词汇来描述的感受。

And so it allows the the person to express something that they may not even have the words to to express how they're feeling.

他们可以像这样，指着这首歌说这就是我的感受。

They can just be like, point to this song like this is how I'm feeling.

没错。

Yeah.

所以不需要对话就能实现修复。

So there is repair without conversation.

是的。

Yes.

这很有意思。

Which is interesting.

是的。

Yes.

艾萨克，你觉得...嗯。

Isaac, what do Yeah.

嗯，我发现这一切非常迷人，音乐似乎是所有文化共有的文化规范或者说文化普遍性，就是这个术语。

Well, and I I find this all really fascinating in the way that music seems to be a cultural norm across all cultures or a cultural universal, that's the term.

没错。

Yeah.

所以你会在所有这些不同的民族中发现音乐，因为我们作为人类需要它。

So you'll find it in all these different peoples because we need it as humans.

它如此深植于我们体内，让我们能够表达超越言语的东西，嗯。

It's just so innate in us to express something beyond just verbal expression or Yeah.

因此，将音乐作为一种工具来表达我们无法言说的内容

So, having having music available as a tool to to say what we can't say

嗯。

Mhmm.

或是深化我们表达的内容，这很有趣。

Or to deepen what we do say Interesting.

我认为这只是其中的一部分，是上帝设计的方式。

I think is I think that's just part of it, the way that God's designed it.

有些东西比言语更深刻。

There's something deeper than the words.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

我有几个孩子非常喜欢音乐。

I I've got a couple of children that take in a lot of music.

有时候我会提议，嘿，我们一起听音乐吧。

And at times, I do ask, hey, let's listen together.

那爸爸你想听什么呢？

Well, what do you wanna listen to, dad?

你在听什么我就想听什么，你懂的。

Whatever you're listening to is what I wanna listen to, you know.

我发现他们经常不会完全诚实地播放他们真正在听的音乐，因为有种说不清的感觉。

And I find that they often are not completely honest with playing what they're listening to because there is a sense of I don't know.

也许他们认为我会对此做出很多评判。

Perhaps they think I'm gonna be I'm gonna place a lot of judgment on that.

但我也觉得这里面有些脆弱性。

But I also think there's some vulnerability there.

明白吗？

You know?

所以他们就会选一首保险的安全歌曲。

So they'll serve up a safe a safe song.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I'm saying?

是啊。

Yeah.

但我听到你说的，尼克，是要真正沉浸在那个原始时刻中。

But but what I'm hearing you say, Nick, is to really get in the raw moment.

就像，不，让我们...让我们倾听。

Like, no, let's let's listen.

让我们倾听你正在聆听的心声。

Let's listen to the to the heart that you're listening to.

是的。

Yes.

并让这成为你此刻找不到的声音。

And allow that to be the voice that you can't find in this moment.

我认为这是件非常美好的事。

I think it's it's a really beautiful thing.

嗯。

Mhmm.

当你与那个人共事时，要着眼于更宏大的图景。

Speak to that larger arc as you work with that person.

从长远来看，你希望看到什么？

What would you like to see long term?

这是个好问题。

That's a good question.

虽然有点逃避问题的嫌疑，但某种程度上这取决于他们的目标，我会这么说。

It's a bit of a cop out answer but it kind of it depends on what their goal is I would say.

如果是一个抑郁的人，而我的目标只是或许能缓解一些抑郁症状。

If it was someone who was depressed and my goal was just to maybe alleviate some depressive symptoms.

显然这不会根治问题。

Like it's not going to cure it obviously.

缓解一些抑郁症状。

To alleviate some depressive symptoms.

但我可能会看到他们更专注于自己的播放列表。

But maybe I would see them focusing, maybe their playlist.

我会看到他们的播放列表、他们听的内容有更积极的转变。

I would see more of a positive turn in the playlist, the things they listen to.

因为音乐确实会影响你的情绪。

Because music does affect your emotions.

你本来很开心，听了一些抑郁的音乐后可能就开始感到悲伤，反之亦然。

You can be happy, listen to some depressive music and start feeling sad and vice versa.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以如果他们初次来时总是听抑郁或阴暗的音乐，这或许是我们能改变的一个方面。

So if they're listening to depressive music all the time when they come or dark music all the time when they first come in, like maybe that would be something we could change.

好的。

Okay.

你是否在听更多积极向上的音乐？

Are you listening to more positive positive music?

白天你是否对自己说了更多积极的话？

Are you telling yourself more positive things during the day?

这些就是我会想要关注的方面。

That would be something I'll be wanting to look to look for.

我们以让前几代人难以想象的方式为自己提供音乐。

We serve up music to ourselves in ways that it's unimaginable to previous generations.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

Mhmm.

怎样才能做好这件事呢？

What does it look like to do that well?

真的，我认为这是一个重要的收获。

Really, I think is a It's an important takeaway.

这是一个

It's a

这是个非常好的收获。

it's a very good takeaway.

这实际上也是我与客户合作的内容之一，我会帮助他们为不同情绪制作播放列表。

It's that's actually something I something I do with clients too is I help them make playlists for different moods.