"Justin, I built a SaaS!"

因此，由于新冠疫情和家庭的压力，我如今快四十岁了，刚完成商学院的学习。

And so because of the pressures of COVID and family and I'm in my late thirties right now, and I had finished business school.

我拥有非常紧凑的学习周期，能迅速判断一个想法是否可行。

I had, I think, very compressed learning cycles of very quickly, like, is a good idea.

我们出发吧。

Let's go.

好的。

Okay.

但还可以做得更好。

But it can be better.

说实话，走到这一步花了很长时间，但在这个过程中，我一直保持着非常紧密的学习循环。

And just like, I didn't it it's taken a long time to get here, but within this, there's been like really tight learning loops.

然后我就意识到，对，就是这个了。

And then it was like, oh, like, this is it.

我选择出来单干，是因为我想拥有自己的事业，想做一个称职的父亲，把家人带在身边，这才是最好的方式。

Like, I went out to work on my own because I want my own business because I want to be present as a dad and brought my family, and, like, this is the best way to do it.

这是一款SaaS产品。

It is a SaaS.

我需要想办法打造一个SaaS产品。

I need to figure out how to have a SaaS somehow.

我的意思是，如果你仔细想想，这也不算太久，已经六年了。

I mean, it doesn't seem that long in my if you think about it, it's been six years.

所以是的。

So Yeah.

自从你开始意识到SaaS市场和这个行业是怎么运作的，已经过去五年或六年了。

It it's been six five or six years since you even kind of realized what the SaaS market industry category, how it works.

所以这已经相当紧凑了。

So that's pretty compressed.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，回头看看，确实如此。

I mean, I guess in hindsight, yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

感觉像过了很久。

It feels like a long time.

感觉像过了很久。

Feels like a long time.

但我的真正想法一旦成型，就迅速发展起来了。

But I mean, once we once when once once the my actual idea hit, it was like it took off really quickly.

所以那段时间是密集而艰难的学习过程，但同时还得一直维持现金流。

So it was a lot of tight, hard learning and then but but, like, having to maintain cash flow the whole time.

根本没有那种‘我要去休假，好好想想’的机会。

There was no, like, oh, I'm gonna go on the sabbatical and think about it.

我当时是熬夜想办法做这件事，因为白天我都在跟客户通话。

It was like, I'm staying up late to try to figure out how to do this thing because during the day, I'm on client calls and stuff.

我觉得你刚才描述的那种驱动力，对于在这个领域探索的人来说很常见，因为这一直是承诺：好吧，我真正想要的是什么？

I think what's interesting is that pull that you just described, I think, is quite common for people investigating, especially this space, because that was always the promise is like, okay, what do I desire?

我不想上班。

Well, I don't want to work a job.

然后你尝试做咨询，你会发现咨询虽然可行，但每个销售周期都得从零开始。

Then you try consulting and you're like, okay, consulting works, but you have to keep this thing every sales cycle is you're starting from zero again.

我的意思不是真的从零开始，但感觉上就像那样。

I mean, it's not really zero, but it's like it can feel like that.

哦，不会吧。

Oh, no.

确实如此。

Definitely.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

意思是，基本上是。

Mean, basically, is.

除非你开始开发知识产权，你知道的。

Unless you start developing IP and, you know.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我说它不总是从零开始的原因是你仍然有你的社交网络。

I mean, I guess the the reason I say it's not always from zero because you still have your network.

比如，你仍然可以联系以前的客户，说嘿，我们再合作一个项目之类的。

Like, you still have former clients you can go back to and say, hey, let's do another engagement or whatever.

但你还是会感觉好像总是在从零开始。

But it can feel like you're always starting from zero.

而且还有这方面的压力，比如按时交付项目，还有，你知道的，甚至得早起。

And then there's the stress of that and like delivering projects on time and, you know, and like even like having to wake up early.

我得早起和瑞典的人开电话会议。

I had to wake up early and do calls with people in Sweden.

所以我得在凌晨四点左右起床。

So it was like I had to wake up at 4AM or something.

我当时就想，这真不容易。

I was like, this is tough.

于是你开始寻找，还有哪些其他选择？

And so then you search for, okay, what are some of other options?

然后你想到，哦，经常性收入。

And you're like, oh, recurring revenue.

比如，如果我能不用在每个销售周期、每个月或每个季度都重新搭建一次，而是每个月都能有新的收入进来就好了。

Like, if I could just have, you know, instead of having to rebuild it every sales cycle every month or every quarter, I just every month, new stuff can come in.

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后你去寻找解决方案，发现哦，我可以做一个SaaS业务。

And then you go look for solutions, and it's like, oh, I I could build a SaaS business.

嗯。

Mhmm.

没错。

Exactly.

所以这就是我如何最终定下这个方向的。

So that's that's how I kinda land on it.

但接着我想，好吧。

But then I'm like, okay.

我得去了解SaaS。

I gotta learn about SaaS.

于是我加入了所有这些平台，当时在Twitter上非常活跃，不停地吸收、吸收、吸收。

So I join all these things, and I'm, like, super active on Twitter at the time just, like, absorbing, absorbing, absorbing.

是的。

Mhmm.

我觉得我当时就像在不断下载，不停地下载一些小东西，思考着冲浪和各种类比，还有阶梯式方法之类的。

And I feel like I was just in, like, just downloading, just constantly downloading little things and thinking about surfing and all all these analogies and the stair step method and dah dah dah dah.

但我认为，总的来说，我当时的感觉是，天啊，这学习量也太大了。

But I think, like, in general, what I was feeling was like, okay, this is like too much learning.

我需要现在就开始行动。

I need to be like doing now.

我需要开始测试一些想法，看看这些想法究竟从哪里来。

I need to like start like testing ideas on like, where is this idea going to come from?

我该如何把这份咨询业务变成一个更像引擎的东西，从而让我能腾出更多时间，或者赚更多钱？

How can I turn this consulting business into maybe something that's like a little bit more of an engine so I can free up, make more money or just free up a little bit more time?

嗯。

Mhmm.

于是它逐渐演变成了一家更像代理机构的业务，因为当时，电子邮件送达率开始在一些网络角落成为热议话题。

So it kind of converted into a little bit more of an agency, because at the time, like email deliverability started to started to become like a little bit of an issue discussed in some of these corners of the web.

我的大多数客户虽然愿意和我交谈，但如果他们特别明确的话，就会说：‘我想要的是潜在客户。’

Most of my clients, they didn't they wanted to talk to me, but if they were really hard, like, and clear, they would say, well, I want leads.

是的。

Yeah.

我跟你聊，觉得你的建议很棒，里面有很多好点子，但归根结底，我们真正需要的是什么？

Like like, I'm talking to you and I like your advice and there's some really good ideas in here, but, ultimately, what do we need?

我们需要新的业务线索。

We need new leads for business.

你能给我们带来潜在客户吗？

And like, can you get us leads?

我以前从来没做过这个。

And I had never done that before.

我之前合作过的公司都是做硬件的，市场推广方式完全不同。

The companies I'd worked with, in hardware it's different, the go to market is really different.

于是我开始学习冷邮件。

And so I just started learning cold email.

我在Twitter上花了一百美元买了一个冷邮件课程。

I bought a cold email course for like a $100 on Twitter.

于是我开始学习冷邮件，并围绕Outreach建立了一家机构。

And so I started learning cold email and started building an agency around Outreach Yeah.

作为这项咨询服务的延伸。

As, an extension of this consulting service.

然后我深入进入了这个领域，我们成为了HubSpot的解决方案合作伙伴。

And so then I started getting really deep in that into that world, and we became a HubSpot solutions partner.

我们在做外联营销。

We were doing Outbound.

然后，这个领域的格局开始逐渐明朗起来，好吧。

And then then I like, the the landscape started to, like, sort of emerge of, okay.

这些是我正在使用的工具。

These are the tools I'm using.

这些工具之间存在一些缺口。

These are gaps between these tools.

它们的收费方式是这样的。

This is how they charge.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这些地方让人感到烦心。

This is, like, what's annoying.

在那之后，我有了几个不同的想法。

And then within that, I had had like a few different ideas.

但我离开了这些社区和其他东西，并不是因为我讨厌它们，而是因为接下来我需要的东西这里没有。

But so I left the communities and stuff, not because I didn't like them, but because it was like, what I need next is not here.

我接下来需要的东西在市场上某个地方，而这里没有人会成为我的第一个客户，所以我能投入的时间有限，而这时我的女儿出生了。

What I need next is out somewhere in the market and nobody here is going to be the one who's going to be my first customer or and so and so I only have so many and at this point, my daughter was born.

我当时就想，好吧。

I was just like, okay.

我没有那么多时间了，所以我得走了。

I don't have that much time, so I gotta go.

于是我干脆直接删掉了Twitter。

And so I like I literally deleted Twitter.

我彻底离开了所有这些平台。

I literally left like everything.

然后我就开始把所有时间都花在LinkedIn上，以此来逐步进入那个测试想法的初期过渡阶段。

And I just started spending, like, all this time on LinkedIn and and and to to kind of like so that was kind of that, like, that, like, transition period in the beginning of what was, like, testing ideas.

这太关键了。

This is so key.

你需要一些基础知识作为基础。

Like, there's a you're gonna need some foundation of knowledge.

但当你有了合理的基础后，就必须走出去行动。

But after you've got a reasonable foundation, you need to go out and do stuff.

你需要走出去，开始动手做东西。

You need to go out and start building things.

我觉得就是这样，我于2012年创办了《Product People》播客。

And I felt this like I started the Product People podcast in 2012.

在做了整整一年的访谈后，我意识到我必须停止只做访谈，得亲自做点什么。

And, you know, after a year of doing these interviews, I felt like I gotta stop doing these interviews, and I've gotta do something.

我必须像你一样，推出一个产品。

Like, I gotta launch something exactly the same as you.

除非我真正开始实践，切身体会，否则一切都只是空谈。

Like, this is until I start putting this into practice and really feeling it, it's just like anything.

我可以跟你描述滑雪板的机械原理，但除非把你带到雪坡上，让你真正去尝试，否则光有理论知识是不够的——这些知识只够你掌握基础，你必须开始真正滑下坡去。

It's like I can describe to you the mechanics of snowboarding, But until I get you out on the hill and you start to actually try it out, it the head knowledge is fine, like, for you to have the basics, but you need to start, you know, you need to just start going down the hill

在某个时刻。

at some point.

没错。

Exactly.

你得摔个屁股蹲儿，然后说：好吧。

You gotta land on your butt and be like, okay.

是的。

Yeah.

那没问题。

That was fine.

所以我认为你有这种自我认知很棒，这可能是因为你时间不多。

So that's I I think that's great that you had that self knowledge probably driven by the fact that you didn't have very much time.

就是这样。

That was it.

天哪。

It was like, oh, man.

这有点让人难过，因为我觉得，哦，这挺有趣的。

And it it was kind of like a little sad Cause it was like, oh, like, this is fun.

我喜欢和这些人聊天。

Like, I like talking to these people.

这挺好玩的。

Like, this is funny.

这是我的社群。

This is my community.

我一个人在家。

I'm home alone.

我没有真正的同事。

I have no real coworkers.

我所有的朋友都有工作。

I like, all my friends have jobs.

然后我们还有一个小孩。

And then we have a young kid.

所以我一般没什么时间。

And so I don't have a lot of time in general.

比如，我不工作的时候，就尽量做个好爸爸，做个好丈夫。

Like, when I'm not working, I'm trying to be a dad as best I can and trying to be a husband.

所以说实话，这有点让人难过，但我就是觉得我没有其他选择，所有这些事情堆在一起，我找不到更好的替代方案。

And so it was like a little sad, honestly, but I just didn't feel like I had, all of these things, I felt like I didn't have a really good alternative.

我就是觉得我必须这么做。

It just felt like I've got to do this.

如果我想前进，就得在这里做出一些改变，这可能会有点不舒服，但我实在不知道还有什么别的选择？

If I want to move forward, I have to make some changes here and it's going to be, you know, a little uncomfortable, but it's I just don't what's the alternative?

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

所以你就把这家机构运作起来了。

So you get this agency going.

公司正在运转。

Agency's going.

它在运作吗？还是发生了什么？

And it's working or what what happened?

它在运作。

Like, it's working.

它在运作。

It's working.

我正在获取客户。

I'm acquiring customers.

我开始有点感受到乘上浪潮的感觉了。

Like, I'm starting to, like, feel what it's like to get on a wave a little bit.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为做咨询的时候，我总觉得，是的，我有这些关系，但其实关系没几个。

Because with my consulting, like, I had this feeling of like, yeah, I've got these relationships, but, like, I don't have that many relationships.

说白了，总有一天这会消失，那之后怎么办？

Like, at some point, like, this is gonna go away and then what?

但现在做代理机构，我才意识到，这真是个问题。

But now with the agency, it was like, oh, this is a problem.

人们的信息都被打到垃圾邮件里了。

People are landing in spam.

他们需要新的潜在客户。

They need new leads.

我可以围绕这个问题打造标准化产品。

Like I can productize around this.

这方面的工具已经有一些了。

There's some tooling around this.

所以这确实行得通。

Like, and so it was working.

我不断获得客户，也留住了客户。

I was getting customers, retaining customers.

它没有起来，因为一切都是我在做。

It wasn't taking off because it was me.

我雇了一些承包商，其中有些人非常棒，但我始终无法完全放手。

I had contractors who some of whom were really wonderful, but like I was never able to fully delegate.

所以当我试图平衡销售和交付时，业务就起起落落。

So it had these ebbs and flows as I tried to balance sales and delivery.

是的。

Mhmm.

是的。

Mhmm.

但后来，这是最不该做的事。

But then and this is like the worst you're not supposed to do this.

这简直是糟糕透顶的建议。

This is like the worst advice.

我认为这是我代理机构历史上报酬最低的客户。

I think maybe the lowest paying client I ever had in the history of my agency.

我的意思是，我觉得我得回去查一下，但说实话，他付给我的钱几乎可以忽略不计。

I mean, I think I have to go back and check, but I mean, he was paying me almost nothing.

是的。

Yeah.

因为有些月份确实还行。

Because some months are like, sure.

好吧。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

Exactly.

Exactly.

你得努力拼搏。

You got to hustle.

他说，你知道的，我真的很想要Smart Lead的冷邮件数据。

He was like, you know, I really want this cold email data from Smart Lead.

我真的很想把它导入HubSpot。

I really want it in HubSpot.

我当时说，哦，是的。

And I was like, oh, yeah.

我们可是HubSpot的合作伙伴。

Like, we're HubSpot partner.

HubSpot里的人总是不停地谈论着入站营销，入站营销，入站营销。

Everyone in HubSpot always talks about inbound, inbound, inbound.

事实上，整个HubSpot生态系统的人总是不断地在那时极力反对出站营销。

In fact, everyone in the HubSpot ecosystem is constantly like, at this time, really posturing against outbound.

这正是HubSpot的核心定位——入站营销。

Like, that's the whole positioning of HubSpot is inbound.

所以他们一直在批评它。

So they're constantly criticizing it.

我当时就想，作为HubSpot生态系统中的外联人士，这还真是有点意思。

And I was like, well, that's kind of an interesting thing to be like the outbound person in HubSpot ecosystem.

没人会这么说。

Like, nobody's saying that.

那样的话，然后我就明白了。

That would be and then and then it made sense to me.

当然，你当然希望这个功能在这里。

Like, well, yeah, of course you would want this there.

对。

Yeah.

你获得一个潜在客户，然后需要管理它，它变成一个商机，接着你完成交易，最后它成为客户。

You get a lead and then you need to manage it and they become a deal and then you close the deal and then they become a customer.

是的。

Like, yeah.

对。

Right.

呃，显而易见。

Like, duh.

为什么没人这么做呢？

Why why isn't anybody doing that?

我当时没意识到，但现在我明白了，那些工具其实还很初级。

And what I didn't realize at the time, but I now realize is that, like, tools were very, like, on the edge.

它们更像是增长黑客工具，而有这些需求的大公司并没有使用它们。

They were like growth hacking tools and bigger companies that had those requirements weren't using them.

或者他们使用这些工具的方式，和使用其他工具的方式不一样。

Or they weren't using them like they use the rest of their tools.

所以当时这本质上是个赌注：如果这种获取新线索的方式流行起来，那么就需要新的工具来协调或整合新工具与旧工具，是的。

So it was like a bet basically at the time of like, if this way of generating new leads takes off, then new tools will be required to coordinate or orchestrate the new tools with the old tools Yeah.

如果它真的流行起来的话。

If it if it takes off.

好的。

Okay.

所以，当客户付钱让你帮他们管理时，你说的外发是指发送冷邮件，

So let let a client is paying you to help them manage when you say outbound, you're talking about sending cold email

是的。

Yep.

试图获取潜在客户。

Trying to get leads.

对。

Yep.

这个客户说，这不错。

And this client says, this is good.

他们并不是高价值客户，但他们说，这不错。

They weren't paying they weren't a high value customer, but they said, this is good.

我真的想要这个，一旦你给我一个潜在客户，

I really want this like, once you get me a lead Yeah.

我希望这些信息能导入到HubSpot，我用它作为我的客户关系管理系统。

I want this to move into HubSpot, which I'm using as my CRM.

当你查看HubSpot时，你会觉得有点奇怪，因为HubSpot的核心理念完全是围绕内容展开的。

And then as you were looking at HubSpot, you're like, oh, this is weird because HubSpot's whole philosophy was all around content.

你是通过内容来吸引潜在客户。

Like, you use content to attract leads.

所以会有主动来访的潜在客户。

So there are inbound leads.

他们因为想获取PDF而注册你的博客文章。

They sign up on your blog posts because to get the PDF.

是的。

Yeah.

然后你通过这种方式管理客户关系。

And then you manage the relationship that way.

但很少有人在使用HubSpot时是从外发营销开始的。

But not a lot of people using HubSpot were starting with outbound.

嗯嗯。

Mm-mm.

不。

No.

不。

No.

是的。

Yeah.

至少不是公开的。

At least not publicly.

但后来我意识到，实际上我们的许多HubSpot客户都在做外向型销售。

But then I realized, like, actually quite a few of our HubSpot clients are doing outbound.

是的。

Yes.

而且实际上HubSpot自己就有一个庞大的销售团队，有几百名销售人员，他们完全在做外向型销售。

And actually HubSpot themselves has a huge sales team with like a few 100 salespeople, and they totally do outbound.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这看起来像是一个缺口。

So this seems like a gap.

这其实是一个机会。

Like, this is a opportunity.

没错。

Exactly.

那后来是怎么落实的？

So what did that translate into?

你对这些信息做了什么？

What what did you do with that information?

于是我开始打造一个东西。

Well, so I started to build something.

所以我开始在Make.com上构建它。

So I started to build it in make.com.

好的。

Okay.

Smart Lead 有 Webhook，我想，好吧。

Smart Lead had webhooks, and I thought, okay.

我可以获取这些 Webhook 负载。

Well, I can take these webhook payloads.

当 Smart Lead 中发生这些事件时，比如发送邮件、收到回复。

Like, as these events occur in Smart Lead, an email is sent, a reply is received.

当这些事件发生时，我可以获取它们，进行映射，并推送到 HubSpot。

As these happen, I can take those events, map them, and push them to HubSpot.

好的。

Okay.

我记得自己说过，这能有多难呢？

I I remember saying, like, how hard like, how hard could it be?

你知道的。

You know?

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

有这么一句话。

There's this quote.

我们做事情并不是因为它们容易，而是因为我们以为它们会容易。

We do things not because they're easy, but because we thought they would be easy.

这就是企业家的认同。

That's that's the entrepreneur's Yeah.

信条。

Mantra.

是的

Yeah.

就这样了。

So that was it.

那个留言板的人说了这句话，我一直想着它。

The the the pinboard the pinboard guy said that, and I it's I think about it.

它在我的领英主页上。

It's on my LinkedIn.

我无时无刻不在想它。

I think about it all the time.

我记得当时真的在想，哦，对啊。

I remember literally being like, oh, yeah.

我们该怎么做到呢？

Like, how are gonna be?

我对他说了这句话。

And I said that to him.

所以这是2023年5月。

And so so this is May 2023.

所以，好吧。

So Okay.

我漏掉了什么吗？

Did miss

这里缺了一部分吗？

a part here?

因为你确实尝试过构建 IntroCRM。

Because you did try to build IntroCRM.

哦，是的。

Oh, yes.

所以我的公司叫 IntroCRM。

So my agency was called IntroCRM.

好的。

Okay.

抱歉。

Sorry.

我之前跳过了一些关于 SaaS 的内容，因为那根本就不是 SaaS。

I covered some of the I missed I skipped some of the SaaS stuff because because it was never a SaaS.

好的。

Okay.

我曾尝试把IntroCRM做成SaaS，但现在我的公司就只是叫IntroCRM，但我们从未有过任何付费客户。

I tried doing IntroCRM as a SaaS, and now and my agency just became IntroCRM, but we never I never had a single paying customer.

我在Bubble上开发了一个东西。

I built something in Bubble.

天哪。

Oh, man.

抱歉。

Sorry.

我忘了，我已经有好一阵子没想过这件事了。

I forgot about I haven't thought about that in, like, in, like, a while.

没有。

No.

没关系。

That's that's okay.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

所以，哦，是的。

So oh, yeah.

那太糟糕了。

It was so bad.

我都记不起来了。

I don't even remember it.

我最初需要的是一个CRM。

My first necessity was a CRM.

是的。

Yes.

所以你当时在做这家代理公司，然后你就想，好吧。

So you were doing this agency, and then you're like, okay.

我打算试着开发一些软件。

I'm gonna try to build some software.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Right.

然后你用Bubble开发了一个叫IntroCRM的工具，但并没有成功吗？

And then you built this tool called IntroCRM in Bubble, but it didn't really take off?

它根本没起作用？

It didn't really work?

没有。

No.

完全没成功。

Not at all.

所以我的想法是当时在用Basecamp。

So it was like my thought was like, was using Basecamp.

天啊。

Oh, man.

抱歉。

Sorry.

天啊。

Oh, man.

我完全把这一章给忘了。

Totally spaced on this chapter.

嗯嗯。

Mm-mm.

这真有趣。

That's funny.

我当时在用Basecamp，然后我想，哦，Basecamp要停掉Highrise了。

I was using Basecamp, and I was like, oh, Basecamp, they're discontinuing Highrise.

就像，没有像Basecamp那样的CRM了，而且他们也不再做Highrise了。

Like, there's no CRM like Basecamp, and they're not doing Highrise anymore.

应该有一个简单易用的CRM，让每个人都能使用。

There should be a simple CRM for everybody that everybody can use.

对吧？

Right?

这里有商机。

There's opportunity.

而且，说实话，Highrise当时年收入我觉得有三五百万美元左右。

And and, I mean, Highrise was, I think, doing, I don't know, 3 to 5,000,000 a year or something like that.

它算是达到了Basecamp的规模，但按说不算成功。

Like, it was it was on Basecamp scale, it wasn't success successful, quote unquote.

但对我们大多数人来说，那已经是绝佳的生意了。

But for most of us, that would be an amazing business.

没错。

Exactly.

我当时就想，好吧。

And I thought, like, okay.

我非常钦佩杰森·弗里德和大卫·海涅迈尔·汉森。

And I really looked up to Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansen.

我从代理公司转型到SaaS的想法，正是受到了他们所做事情的启发。

And part of my idea of, like, going from agency to SaaS was, like, exactly what they had done.

因此，当时他们对我产生了深远的影响。

So they were really influential in my mind at the time.

我不确定。

I don't know.

很难说清楚。

It's hard to know.

当我自我批评时，我会说，他们其实是在经营一家设计公司。

When I'm being, like, self critical, I would say, well, they were really they were really running a design agency.

他们确实是技艺精湛的工匠，嗯。

They were really crafts people and, know Mhmm.

我当时在做什么呢？

What was I doing?

但我认为我可能对自己太苛刻了。

But I think I'm probably being a little hard on myself.

我觉得我当时在做很艰难的事情，而且最终这些努力转化成了一个不错的产品。

I think like, I I was doing hard stuff, and it and it I think it ultimately has translated into a good product.

所以有时候，当你远远地看到这些人时，会觉得很难。

And so it's like sometimes it's hard when you see these people from afar.

是的，确实如此。

You kind of Yeah.

你感觉他们遥不可及，但其实他们也只是普通人在努力工作、做出伟大的事情，他们也不过是普通人而已。

You're it feels like unattainable of like but they're just normal guys too working hard and doing great things, but they're, you know, just people too.

回头看，我现在觉得我在心里把他们和我之间的差距拉得太大了，比如‘我怎么可能做到那样呢？’

In hindsight, now I feel like I created too much distance in my mind between what they were to do and what I what I would be able to do, you know, of like, oh, how could I ever do that?

他们只是

They're just

普通人而已。

humans too.

我的意思是，他们在很多方面都非常有天赋。

I mean, they're they are very gifted in in many ways.

但在我职业生涯早期，我曾申请过那里的一个职位，飞到芝加哥，和团队待了一天。

But earlier in my career, I applied for a job there and flew to Chicago and spent a day with the team.

那天之后，我的感觉是，我差不多把他们捧上了神坛。

And that was my sense after that day was I had like kind of put them up on a pedestal.

但和他们相处了一天后，我才意识到，哦，他们也只是普通人。

But then after spending a day with them, I'm like, oh, these are just human beings.

就像，他们也是普通人。

Like, they're Yeah.

再次强调，他们确实擅长自己所做的事情。

There's they are again, they are good at what they do.

他们很有能力。

They're skilled.

这并不是什么神奇的事情。

It wasn't, like, magical.

这只不过是些在做事的人，他们取得了一些成就。

It was just like, these are just people doing work, and they've achieved something.

我觉得

I think

他们可能是最早会这么说的人。

they would probably be, like, the first ones to say that.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我也这么认为。

I think so too.

他们会说，我的意思是，你知道，我不认为你知道，他们只是需要一个品牌，他们很早就做了，而且以惊人的规模做到了，我觉得是的，所以IntroCRM是我第一个SaaS想法。

They would be like I mean, they you know, I don't think you know, they just had to have a brand, they did it early, they've done it at an incredible scale and I think so yes, so IntroCRM was my first SaaS idea.

我自己用Bubble搭建了它。

I built it with Bubble myself.

我得到了一些帮助，所以我的第一个想法是一个集成方案。

I got help from so my first idea was an integration.

我当时想，好吧。

I was like, okay.

应该有一个能与Basecamp集成的CRM，因为我以为人们最先采用的工具是项目管理软件，因为你刚开始只有几个客户，还不需要CRM。

So there should be a CRM that integrates with Basecamp because I thought the first tool that people adopt is project management software because you have a couple of clients and you don't need a CRM yet.

所以你会先用Trello或Basecamp这样的项目管理软件，然后随着客户增多，你才会意识到，哦，我得管理这些潜在客户了。

So you start with a project management software like Trello or Basecamp, and then you start to get more clients and then you realize, oh, I kind of have to manage these leads.

我需要一个CRM。

I need a CRM.

所以我的想法是，最先应该集成的应该是CRM，但真正的核心数据系统其实是项目管理工具，两者是相互配合的。

And so my thought was the first thing that should integrate should be a CRM, but the core system of record is actually the project management tool and they kinda go back and forth.

这就是我的第一个想法。

So that was my first idea.

于是我就找了Lola，来自Lunchpail Labs，她帮我开发了这个集成。

And so I had Lola, Lunchpail Labs, she built the integration for me.

我们把Trello和Basecamp都集成进来了，天哪。

We we integrated with Trello and Basecamp and oh gosh.

我现在记不太清了，好像我们还集成过第三个项目管理工具。

I can't remember it now, there was, like, I think maybe a third project management tool that we integrated with.

因为我当时在和这些创始人合作，他们整天都用项目管理工具。

Because I was working with all these founders and they were in project management tools all day.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我当时就想，对啊。

And I was like, oh, yeah.

比如，他们可能会用这个工具。

Like, so they would maybe use this.

他们不用HubSpot，因为太臃肿了。

And they're not using HubSpot because it's too bloated.

是的

Yeah.

要做的事情太多了。

And there's too much to do.

所以你尝试向人们推销，但就是行不通吗？

And so you tried to sell it to folks, but it just didn't work?

我当时想，好吧，我们这个基础的客户关系管理系统附带了这些服务。

I was like, well, so, like, we have this basic CRM and it comes with these services.

好的。

Okay.

他们说，我们只想和你们合作。

And they were like, we just we just wanna work with you.

我们不需要你们的客户关系管理系统。

We don't we don't want your CRM.

明白了。

Got it.

所以当你向人们推销时，他们说，我们只想用你们的服务部分。

So the so when you pitched people on it, they were like, like, we just want the services part.

你认为他们为什么不想用CRM呢？

Why why do you think they didn't want the CRM?

他们当时在用什么替代品？

Like, what were they using instead?

他们根本就没去查看，也没登录过。

They just, like, didn't check it, didn't log into it.

我有个很棒的客户，她人非常好。

I had, an amazing client, and she was just very kind.

我觉得，如果有人会因为好奇或同情而登录的话，那一定是她。

And, I felt like if anyone, she would have just, like, logged in just out of, like, curiosity and sympathy Yeah.

或者出于同情。

Or pity.

但就连她也从未登录过。

And even she had never logged in.

所以我就想，好吧。

So I was like, okay.

这根本没人关心。

This is like nobody cares about this, really.

我觉得有趣的是，你的假设似乎很合理。

I think what's interesting about this is your hypothesis seems reasonable.

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后，你知道，会有一些不同的问题。

And so then, you know, there's different questions.

是你们的营销方式有问题吗？

Is it is it the way you're marketing it?

是你们的定位有问题吗？

Is the way you're positioning it?

是产品本身不够扎实吗？

Is it the actual product isn't solid?

那么那些没有登录的人，他们平时在做什么呢？

So those folks that weren't logging in, what were they doing instead?

他们用什么替代了你们的CRM系统？

Like, what were they using instead of your CRM?

他们是完全不用CRM吗？

Were they just using no CRM?

是的，他们确实如此。

Like, they Yeah.

那里实际上没有任何进展吗？

There wasn't actually any movement there?

是的。

Yeah.

他们要么什么都不用，要么用Google表格，或者干脆就在收件箱里管理。

They would like use nothing or they would use a Google Sheet or they would just kind of manage it out of their inbox.

我觉得这背后可能有一种模式，但我认为自己还没有找到适合的创业者与市场契合点来开发它。

I think there's like a version of this, but I don't think I have founder market fit to build it.

这必须是一个以产品为导向的东西。

It has to be like a product led thing.

它需要让你直接入驻，结合现在的AI和原生AI工具，我可以想象出一个与Gmail集成的CRM系统。

It would have to be like, you just drop in and like now with AI and these AI native tools, I could imagine there being a CRM that connects with Gmail.

如果您的业务规模小且足够简单，只要它能连接您的日历和收件箱，就能为您维护数据模型并自动创建小单。

And it's like, and if your business is small and simple enough, if it connects to your calendar and your inbox, it will maintain their data model for you and create little deals for you.

我现在真的能想象到这种场景。

I could actually see that today.

是的。

Yeah.

这对这类用户来说已经足够了。

And that would be good enough for this kind of user.

因为问题在于进入门槛。

Because the problem is the entry.

登录、更新字段这些操作，对他们来说根本不值得花时间。

The logging in, logging updating fields, it just wasn't worth their time to do it.

当他们规模变大后，就会雇人来做这件事。

Then when they got big enough, they hired somebody to do it.

然后那个人想要一个真正的工具。

And then that person wanted a real tool.

所以你当时处于一种中间状态，IntroCRM 这样的软件产品既不完全对路，也不够好。

So you were in this kind of in between IntroCRM as a software product was, like, in an in between state, and that was, like, not quite right.

是的。

Yeah.

它就是没能很好地落地。

It just didn't quite land.

但我没错，人们确实喜欢——这些系统彼此不互通，这个核心想法多年来一直成立。

But but I was right that people like, the the core idea of, like, these things don't talk to each other, that is like a thread that has been true for a while.

甚至回溯到3D打印公司，再到ERP咨询公司，我一路走来，合作一直是贯穿我十五年职业生涯、推动我所创办公司成长的关键线索。

And, like, even back to the three d printing company and even back to the ERP consulting company, like, I've like, partnerships has been, like, the thread of growth through, like, fifteen years of my career through the companies that I've grown.

这确实是一种持续性的模式。

That is like a that is like a continuity thing.

就像我所说的，这些东西彼此之间无法沟通。

Like, my idea of, like, these things don't talk to each other.

这如今正是OutboundSync今天构建的核心基础。

That is now fundamentally what OutboundSync is built on today.

我认为这是一个至关重要的观察。

I think that is such a crucial observation.

这并不意味着你的假设总是正确的，但仅凭这一点就是真实的。

It doesn't mean your your hypotheses will always be correct, but that alone is just true.

在人工智能时代，我觉得这一点比以往任何时候都更真实。

And in an AI world, I feel like that's more true than ever.

比如，每个人都正在向ChatGPT和Claude输入问题，但Claude和这些工具之间仍然缺乏有效的连接——Claude可能会告诉你该做什么，但你必须自己跨越这道鸿沟。

Like everybody's typing into ChatJPT and Claude, but there's still not a lot of glue between like, Claude could tell you to go do something, but then you've gotta there's this chasm that you've gotta you've gotta jump over.

真正去执行它告诉你要做的事情的人，还是你自己。

You're you're the one that's gotta go do what it just told you to do.

是的。

Yeah.

这些系统之间需要越来越多的连接机制。

And there's going to be more and more glue needed between these things.

是的。

Yes.

我认为这其中蕴含着巨大的机会。

And I think there's going to be a lot of opportunity just in that.

甚至像Zapier这样的集成经常出问题，要么不够准确，要么存在各种漏洞、各种小机会、各种小摩擦点，让人忍不住叹气。

Even, you know, like Zapier integrations break all the time or they're not quite right or there's just all of these holes, all of these little opportunities, all of these little friction points where it's like, ah.

我观察到的另一个例子是，如果你去一家零售店，问店主他们在做什么，他们居然还在手动录入库存。

Like another one I've observed is if you go to a retail store, I would ask owners about what they were doing and they're still entering inventory manually.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你可能会想，天啊，他们收到的每件商品上都有条形码，按理说供应商或分销商可以直接发送JSON格式的数据，自动填充他们的销售系统。

And you'd think, oh man, like there's a barcode on every product they get in and you'd think that or you'd think that the the supplier or the distributor could just send them some sort of JSON, some sort of data that would just populate their point of sale system.

但直到2025年，即使像Square这样的现代销售系统，他们依然在手动输入数据。

But still in 2025 and still with modern point of sales like Square, they're still entering data in manually.

而且，也许那里资金不足或者存在摩擦。

And again, maybe there's not enough money there or friction.

比如，这一切所带来的机会在经济上可能并不划算，但方向是对的。

Like, the economics of all that of the opportunity might not be there, but the thread is correct.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为你已经发现了，目前仍然存在大量的手动数据录入。

And I think you've identified like, there's gonna still there's still so much manual data entry right now.

如果你留意的话，这里有很多机会。

There's there's lots of opportunities here if you're, like, looking.

我觉得是的。

I think so.

当然。

Absolutely.

关键是这样。

And here's the thing.

所以有人会说，当然了，你得把这件事输入到Claude里，然后还得去处理别的事情。

So someone would say, well, yeah, of course, you gotta enter this thing into Claude, then you gotta go to the other thing.

这就是MCP服务器的用武之地，也正是为什么代理工作流如此令人兴奋的原因。

Well, that's where MCP servers come in, and that's why, you know, agentic workflows are so exciting.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，去问问任何一位开发者，嘿。

I mean, ask any developer, hey.

所以明天我将发布我们的数据库模式。

So tomorrow I'm gonna publish our database schema.

不。

No.

不会有任何损失。

Nothing will be lost.

没有安全问题。

No security issues.

我就直接发布出来，放到网上。

I'm just gonna publish it and post it online.

而且，你觉得你会为此感到自豪吗？

And like, do you would you be proud of that?

你对这些表和标签有什么问题吗？

Do you have any issues maybe with the tables and the labels?

如果你明天被公交车撞了，你觉得我们的数据库文档够清晰吗？

Do you feel like our database is is well documented if you were to get hit by a bus tomorrow?

我的意思是，有多少开发者会说，是的，没问题。

I mean, how many developers would be like, Yeah, no problem.

Open Kimono。

Open Kimono.

让全世界都看到。

Let the world see.

如果情况真是这样，如果负责构建和维护代码的开发者自己都觉得文档不够清晰，那Claude怎么可能知道该怎么做呢？

And so if that's the case, if the developer who's building and maintaining a code doesn't feel like it's exceptionally well documented to them, then how the heck is clogged going know what to do?

是的。

Yeah.

它会出问题。

It's going to stumble.

它会在表格上出问题，也会在其他地方出问题，你可能会说，嗯，他们会自己弄明白的。

It's going to stumble in the tables and it's going to stumble in the and you can say, well, they'll figure it out.

怎么弄？

How?

这里有这么多细节，尤其是当你遇到边缘情况时，而边缘情况有时恰恰最重要。

There's all these nuances, especially like when you get to the edge cases and the edge cases are sometimes what matter the most.

边缘情况才是真实的。

The edge cases are what's real.

这就是为什么每次我看到演示时，比如有人发布某个演示，我都会想，好吧，这根本不是一家真正的公司。

This is why every time I look at a demo, like somebody releases some sort of demo, it's like, okay, this is not a real company.

这根本不是真实的使用场景。

This is not a real use case.

这可不是无足轻重的。

This is not nothing.

这全是幻想。

This is all fantasy.

但你知道，来进入我的世界吧。

But, you know, come into my world.

是的。

And Yes.

就拿我现在调音频来说，我用一个叫Ulean Audio Meter之类的工具。

It's even like the like right now, when I am trying to level audio, I use this tool called Ulean audio meter or whatever.

它告诉我音量的Loofs值。

It it tells me the loudness in Loofs.

但接着我会截取屏幕截图，发给Claude，然后告诉它：这些是苹果内置的音频滤波器。

But then I take a screenshot of that, bring it into Claude, then give it the there's these built in Apple audio filters.

我说：这是音频滤波器，AU Dynamics。

I say, here's the audio filter, AU Dynamics.

告诉我这里该用什么。

Tell me what to use here.

比如增益多少、释放时间多长，所有这些参数。

Like how much gain, how much release time, all that stuff.

这就是麻烦。

That is friction.

对。

Right.

你会想，现在是现代世界，也许用苹果快捷指令就能做点什么，但事实是，从一个系统转移到另一个系统仍然有很多麻烦。

And you think, you know, there's a modern world, like maybe with Apple shortcuts, could do something or may and the truth is, is it's still a lot of friction to get something from one system to another.

对大多数用户来说，这种麻烦依然存在，这里还有很大的机会。

And for most users, that still exists, and there's just a lot of opportunity there.

是的。

Yes.

比如，如果有一个工具——在我这种情况，也许是一个网页应用——能自动为我的原始音频生成响度评分，然后告诉我该怎么做，或者直接帮我自动处理，我可能会为此付费。

Like, if there was a tool that, in my case, like maybe a web app or something that, you know, automatically gave me a loudness score for my raw audio and then told me what, you know, what to do or just automatically did it for me, I might might pay for that.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

这就是你发现问题的方式。

That's how you discover problems.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，那就是地方。

Well, that's where yeah.

而那里就变得复杂了。

And that's where it gets complicated.

是的。

Yeah.

但不是。

But no.

我觉得，对于AI来说，想象一下你有一个实体图书馆。

I I think that like with I mean, with AI, I mean, imagine if you have like a library, you know, like a physical library.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

但没有卡片目录。

But like no card catalog.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧。

It's like, okay.

那你该怎么找到那本书呢？

Well, how are you gonna find the book?

而且我觉得，人们没有谈到的是，到了某个时候，你会耗费大量精力。

And I mean, and at some point you're expending and this is the thing I think people aren't talking about.

他们说，这是最糟糕的情况了。

They say, this is the worst it's ever gonna be.

它总会变得更好的。

It's always gonna get better.

嗯，也许吧。

Like, well, maybe.

现在也有大量资金正在投入。

There's also like a lot of money being spent right now.

而且在某个时候，这些投入必须获得回报。

And like, at some point, there's gonna need to be a return on these things.

而且在某个时候，他们将会开始收取更多费用。

And at some point, they're gonna start charging more.

所以，我的意思是，是的，我理解理论上事情会变得更好，但没有什么会永远变好。

And so, I mean, yes, I understand that in theory, things will get better, but like nothing gets better forever.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，唯一无限增长的只有癌细胞。

I mean, the only thing that grows infinitely is cancer cells.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道的。

You know?

然后你就面临系统崩溃。

And then you have like system collapse.

所以呢，我喜欢人工智能。

So it's just like, I like AI.

我们都在用它。

We use it.

我曾经尝试过开发一个GPT封装工具。

I've I tried building a a GPT wrapper.

是的。

So Yeah.

聊聊其他那些SaaS点子吧。

Talk those other SaaS ideas.

所以IntroCRM没成功。

So IntroCRM didn't work.

但后来他们需要这项服务，我就提供了服务。

But then I got into this they wanted the service, so I did the service.

然后他们说，好吧。

And then they said, okay.

我给他们提供潜在客户名单，让他们反馈并打分，这样我就能做出更好的名单和更精准的匹配。

Well, I'm giving them lead lists to give me feedback to score them so I can make them better lists, better fits.

是的。

Yeah.

因为我用的是ZoomInfo和Apollo这样的数据库工具。

Because I'm using like database tools like ZoomInfo and Apollo.

所以我给他们发Google表格，他们就说，哦，这真是个SaaS产品。

And so I'm giving them Google Sheets and so was like, oh, this is a SaaS.

是的。

Yeah.