Has the construction industry finally got a burning platform for change?

欢迎收听澳大利亚建筑法学会播客，在这里我们探讨澳大利亚建筑行业面临的法律和技术问题。

Welcome to the Society of Construction Law Australia podcast, the podcast where we look at legal and technical issues facing the Australian construction industry.

我是梅丽莎·约，担任学会传播分委员会的主席。

My name's Melissa Yeo, and I'm chair of the Society's Communications Subcommittee.

今天，我很高兴邀请到澳大利亚建筑商协会的首席执行官乔恩·戴维斯。

Today, I am pleased to be joined by Jon Davies, CEO of the Australian Constructors Association.

乔恩最初以工料测量师的身份进入建筑行业，此后积累了三十多年的行业经验，在澳大利亚、中东和英国成功支持了多个项目的商业交付。

Jon started out in the construction industry as a quantity surveyor, and since that time has gained over thirty years experience in the industry, supporting the successful commercial delivery of projects in Australia, The Middle East, and The UK.

任何有幸听过乔恩演讲的人都知道，他是我们行业各个层面变革的热情倡导者。

Now anyone who has had the opportunity to hear from Jon previously will know that he is a passionate advocate for change at every level of our industry.

这是为了确保行业未来能够可持续发展、协作高效。

That's to ensure that it is sustainable, collaborative and efficient going forward.

然而，正如人们所说，变革是艰难的。

Now, as they say, however, change is hard.

任何尝试过改掉坏习惯或养成好习惯的人，对此都深有体会。

Anyone who has ever tried to break a bad habit or indeed start a good one will certainly know that.

那我们怎么才能改变整个行业呢？

So how are we meant to change an entire industry?

嗯，

Well,

这就是

that's

我们今天要讨论的话题。

what we're going to talk about today.

乔恩，非常感谢你来做客。

Jon, thanks so much for joining me.

谢谢你，梅丽莎。

Thanks, Melissa.

很高兴来到这里。

It's great to be here.

非常好。

Very good.

那么对于那些不熟悉你们工作的听众，能请你简单介绍一下你们是做什么的吗？

So for those listeners who are not familiar with the work of the can you please tell us briefly about what you do?

好的，当然可以。

Yeah, sure.

其实，ACA已经存在相当长一段时间了。

I mean, the ACA has been around for quite some time now.

说实话，我觉得没人确切知道它存在多久了，但肯定超过二十年了。

To be quite honest, I don't think anyone knows quite how long it's been around, certainly over twenty years now.

它代表了澳大利亚主要承包商的利益。

Represents the interests of the major contractors here in Australia.

就是那些做大型项目、超级大项目的承包商，比如五亿美元以上的项目。

So the contractors that do the major projects, sort of the mega projects, you like, the $500,000,000 and above projects.

所以我们的会员数量不多，但会员都很有影响力，也很有意思，分布在基础设施领域和建筑及施工服务领域。

So we don't have a huge membership, but we have a very loud and interesting membership that is spread across both the infrastructure sector and the building and construction services sectors.

很好，很好。

Excellent, excellent.

最近你为建筑法学会做了一场讲座，题目是《新冠疫情是否是建筑业的优步时刻？》

Now you recently delivered a seminar for the Society of Construction Law, and the title of that seminar was Is COVID-nineteen Construction's Uber Moment?

对于那些没机会听这场演讲的听众，顺便打个广告，如果你不是SACLA的成员，请一定去注册一下。

For those listeners who didn't get a chance to catch presentation, if you are a member of SACLA and here's the plug, if you're not, please, please go sign up.

如果你是会员，就可以在我们的网站上观看这段录像。

But if you're a member, you can access that recording on our website.

在那场演讲中，你探讨了建筑业面临的问题，当然也包括这些问题的成因。

But in that presentation, you discussed the issues facing the construction industry and of course the causes of those issues.

能跟我们多讲讲这些吗？

Can you tell us a bit about those?

业内的人听到行业现状不佳，或者意识到这个行业已经挣扎了很长一段时间，应该都不会觉得意外。

I don't think it's a surprise to anyone in the industry to hear that the industry is in a bad way, or that people wouldn't recognise the fact that the industry has struggled for quite some time now.

去年我们做了一件事，就是针对澳大利亚基础设施委员会2019年的基础设施审计报告进行了回应。这份报告指出了澳大利亚为了保持竞争力所需要建设的所有基础设施项目。

But what we did last year was we, in response to Infrastructure Australia's 2019 infrastructure audit, which highlights all of the infrastructure that Australia needs to build to remain competitive.

同时，它也指出了建设这些基础设施所面临的障碍。

What it also does is it highlights the impediments to constructing that infrastructure as well.

他们呼吁行业提交意见，说明如何克服这些障碍。

And they call on industry to make submissions as to how that can be overcome.

所以我们实际上聘请了毕兹牛津经济研究院，因为我们希望我们的回应能基于数据和证据支持。

So what we did was we actually engaged Biz Oxford Economics because we wanted our response to be very much data driven and supported by an evidence based.

其中第一部分就是找出行业真正面临的问题。

So part of that, first part of that was to identify the real issues that industry does face.

当你从统计角度去看这些实际数字时，真的相当吓人。

And when you look at it from a statistics point of view and look at the actual numbers, it's really quite scary.

我的意思是，我们存在盈利问题。我们总听到承包商抱怨无利可图的繁荣。

I mean, have a profitability problem We all hear contractors maybe moaning about the profitless boom.

实际上，有统计数据支持这一点，表明除了律师之外，没人能从大型项目的问题中赚钱。

Well, are actually statistics that back that up to say that no one is making any money, dare I say apart from the lawyers, from the issues that are happening around mega projects.

但我们还有其他一些重大问题。

But we've also got some significant other issues as well.

我们存在生产力问题。如果把建筑行业的生产力增长与其他主要行业相比。

We have a productivity issue, our industry, if we compare productivity growth in the construction industry with all other major industries.

过去三十年里，我们的生产率增长落后了25%。

Over the last thirty years, there's a 25% gap in productivity growth.

大家听到这儿可能会想，是啊，那又说明什么呢？

And Okay, people have been listening to this thinking, yes, so what does that mean?

如果我们能把差距缩小一半，去年用同样的投资额，就能多完成价值100亿澳元的项目。

Well, we were to if we were to just half that gap, we last year could have constructed an extra $10,000,000,000 worth of projects for the same level of investment.

所以这个数字非常惊人。

So that's very significant.

但其他问题，更偏向个人或相关的问题，我们还有多样性不足的难题。

But in terms of other issues that we have, more personal or related issues, we have a diversity problem.

女性只占我们劳动力的12%。

Only 12% of our workforce are female.

如果看蓝领工人，这个比例就降到个位数了，大概只有2%。

And if we look at blue collar workforce, that goes down to single digits, that goes down to around 2%.

更糟的是，工人因自杀死亡的可能性是因工伤死亡的六倍，这反映了我们行业存在的文化问题。

And even worse, our workers are six times more likely to die from suicide than they are from a workplace incident, which talks to the culture that we have or the cultural problem that we have in our industry.

所以问题一大堆。

So there's a whole bunch of problems there.

然后，大家都知道，就在一年多前，新冠疫情又来了，简直是雪上加霜。

And then, as we all know, just over twelve months ago, along came COVID just to add to Yeah, to sit over the top of that.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Right.

嗯，我看你演讲的时候就注意到了这一点。

Well, I mean, that was one of the things I noticed about your presentation when I watched it.

那些数据确实吓人。

Those statistics were scary.

没别的词可以形容。

There's no other way to describe it.

我记得你说女性员工只占12%，但蓝领岗位更是只有2%。

I mean, fact I think you said 12% of the workforce was female, but again, 2% in blue collar.

这确实挺让人沮丧的。

That's really quite depressing.

但心理健康的数据也摆在那里，真的必须得改变。

But the mental health statistics are also just I mean, that has to change.

这一点毫无疑问。

There's no two ways about it.

你提到新冠疫情，虽然带来了很多可怕的冲击，但可能也有一线希望。

You indicated that COVID-nineteen, for all of its horrible, horrible impacts, there could be a silver lining.

它可能会成为建筑行业的转折点。

It could be construction's uber moment.

能跟我聊聊你为什么这么认为吗？

Can you tell me a bit about why you think that might be the case?

我之所以这么想，是因为我们基本上都知道建筑行业存在很多问题，可能细节上不太清楚，就像我刚才解释的那样。

The reason why I think that is the case is that we, as I say, we all know largely that construction has problems, maybe not the detail, as I've just sort of explained there.

但我们一直都知道，我们本可以做得比现在好得多。

But we've all known that we can do things a lot better than we have been doing.

但是我们一直缺少一个推动变革的紧迫理由。

But we've lacked a burning platform for change.

所以在我看来，新冠疫情可能正好提供了这样一个紧迫的理由。

And so what I see is that COVID potentially provides us that burning platform.

为什么这么说呢？

Why is that?

因为各级政府，联邦政府、州政府，都在指望建筑业来承担经济复苏的重任，带领我们走出衰退。

Well, you have governments at all levels, federal government, state government, all looking at the construction industry to do the heavy lifting of economic repair, to lead I was going say lead us out of recession.

我们现在其实已经走出衰退了。

We sort of moved already out of recession now.

但是要推动经济向前发展，大家也希望借助这笔创纪录的投资，来发挥其社会和经济效益。

But to take the economy forward, there's also a desire with that record level of investment to leverage the social and economic benefits of that spend.

但与此同时，人们也担心行业是否真的有能力和实力来完成这一创纪录的工作量。

But at the same time, there's a real concern around whether industry has the capability and capacity to actually deliver on that record pipeline of work.

再往后看，回到之前提到的生产力问题，大家担心的是，不管经济状况如何，我们都得继续在基础设施上花钱。

And then further down the track, talking back to that productivity piece, there's a concern around, look, we're going to have to keep spending money on infrastructure irrespective of the state of the economy.

如果我们想让经济保持竞争力，就必须持续投资基础设施。

If we want our economy to remain competitive, you have to keep investing in infrastructure.

不能停。

Can't stop.

但我们刚刚在JobKeeper、JobSeeker这些项目上花了那么多钱，现在当我们说，好吧，我们需要在这里建一些基础设施，钱从哪里来呢？

But we just spent all of this money on JobKeeper, JobSeeker, all of these things now that when we come to say, well, okay, we need to build some infrastructure here, where's the money going to come from?

所以我们必须找到一种方法，政府也非常想找到一种方法，用更少的钱建更多的东西。

So we've got to find a way, and government is very keen to find a way, to build more with less.

这又回到了能力和容量的问题上。

That sort of then comes back to that capability and capacity piece as well.

如果我们确实有问题，目前这些都只是传闻，我想人们可以指出具体的短缺，比如铁路方面的信号工程师，IA会做一些工作，试图真正摸清问题有多大，如果确实有问题的话。

If we do have a problem there, and at the minute it's all very anecdotal, I think people can point particular shortfalls, you know, signaling engineers from rail perspective and IA are going to do a piece of work around trying to actually map how big a problem if there is a problem.

但我觉得总的来说，说会有能力和容量的限制是合理的，因为工作量这么大。

But I think generally speaking, it's logical to say there will be capability and capacity constraints given the volume of work that's coming through.

我们怎么解决这个问题呢？

How do we address that?

我们的边境已经关闭了。

We have closed borders.

所以就算我们想引进人才，也很难做到。

So even if we wanted to bring people in, we're going to struggle to do that.

但就算边境开放，我前几周参加了一个全球同行的讨论会。

But even if the borders were open, I was in a panel discussion the other week with peers from around the world.

实际上，是梅丽莎在这里主持的，由加拿大承包商协会主办。

Actually, Melissa was here hosted by the Canadian Contractors Association.

那次讨论显示，各国政府和全球经济体都会转向基础设施建设来带领本国走出衰退，这应该不是什么新鲜事。

And what that showed was that and this shouldn't be any great surprise to any of us is that economies, governments around the world will all be turning to construction of infrastructure to lead their own economies out of recession.

所以全球范围内会有一场资源争夺战。

So there will be a global competition for resource.

当然，我们在利用这些资源方面确实有点优势，因为这里是个宜居的好地方。

And while, sure, we have a bit of an advantage when it comes to tapping into that, because we're a great place to live.

我们在应对新冠疫情方面做得不错，你知道，这里确实是个好地方。

We did a good job with COVID, you know, it's a nice place to live.

听我的口音就知道，我原本不是澳大利亚人。

I mean, from my accent, I wasn't originally from Australia.

在座的各位都能听出你是外国人。

It says both foreigners in the room.

没错。

That's right.

所以这里确实有吸引力，但这远远无法弥补我们可能面临的劳动力短缺。

So there are obvious attractions to come in here, but it's not going to go anywhere close to addressing the shortfall that we're potentially going to be looking at.

那么，培养一名工程师从入门到能派上用场需要七年时间，这问题怎么解决？

So what is the solution when it takes seven years to train an engineer from start to being something approaching useful?

唯一的办法，其实有两个。

The only solution that we can look at, well there's two.

一是要更好地吸引目前不愿加入我们的一半劳动力——女性。

One is that we need to focus on better engaging with the half the working population that currently decides they don't want to work with us, the women.

二是要想办法用更少的人做更多的事。

And also we need to find ways to do more with less.

所以现在这些问题都凑到一起了，行业希望政府带头，政府又希望行业来帮忙。

So we've got all of these issues that are coming together and where industry is looking for government to take the lead and government is looking for industry to help them.

所以现在这个局面很紧迫，双方，也就是客户和行业，都需要彼此。

So you've got this burning platform now where both sides, the clients and industry, both need each other.

所以我觉得这就是我们变革的机会。

And so I think that that is our opportunity for change.

完全同意。

Absolutely.

嗯，我觉得，你知道，没有什么比必要性更能推动变革了。

Well, I think, you know, nothing contributes to change more than necessity.

而且，我是说，当然在法律行业，规模没那么严重，当大家不得不开始在家办公时，之前一直有关于弹性工作的种种担忧，天哪，我们可不能真的那样做。

And I mean, certainly on a much less serious scale in in the legal industry, when everyone had to start working from home and there used to be all of this concern about flexible working and goodness, we can't really let that happen.

但结果还是发生了。

But it happens.

然后一旦你意识到，你知道，这必须发生，实际上还挺高效的。

And then once you realize, you know, it has to happen, it's actually quite efficient.

而且你能推动这种改变，然后你走出来，甚至可能会让自己都感到惊讶。

And you can drive that change, then you come out the other side, and you might even surprise yourself.

所以，就是因为现在必须得做，不是选择的问题，一起努力把它完成，我觉得这真的很有意思。

So just working together to actually get it done because you have to now, it's not a choice, I think is really interesting.

我得承认，我忍不住注意到你昨晚在一个网络研讨会上当嘉宾，标题是《是时候把律师踢出去了吗？》。

I will confess I couldn't help but notice that you were a panellist on a webinar last night with the title Is It Time to Punt the Lawyers?

我的问题总是，你知道，我们怎么才能帮上忙？

And my question is always, you know, how can we help the situation?

我们怎么才能推动改变？

How can we help drive change?

我参加了那个网络研讨会，记录了第一个问题的结果，就是“是时候把律师踢出去了吗？”。

And I attended that webinar, recorded the results of the first question, which was, Is it time to punt the lawyers?

我对那个问题感到非常震惊。

And I was horrified at question.

但不管怎样，参加那个网络研讨会的21%的人说“是”。

But anyhow, 21% of people in attendance at that webinar said yes.

33%的人不确定。

33% were unsure.

这让我很担忧。

That's alarming to me.

不过，我有点失望的是，网络研讨会结束时没有再次问这个问题。

But in any event, I'm a bit disappointed that it wasn't asked again at the end of the webinar.

但话说回来，你能先跟我讲讲这个问题是怎么产生的吗？

But look, can you tell me a bit about how that question has arisen for starters?

我的意思是，人们会问这个问题，这件事本身就值得我们思考。

I mean, fact that people are asking the question is something I think we need to think about.

而且，我大概知道你的答案，但你对这个问题有什么看法？

And also, think I know your answer, but what are your views on that?

好的，没问题。

Yeah, sure.

很明显，这个问题是故意挑衅的。

I mean, it was obviously deliberately provocative question.

就是一小群人，他们真的想围绕这些事情推动对话，我非常支持，ACA 也非常支持。

Is a small group of individuals that are really trying to promote dialogue around all of these things, which I'm very keen and ACA is very keen to support.

如果你们在领英上搜索话题标签 hardconvo，就能找到它。

For those of you if you look up on LinkedIn and search the hashtag hardconvo you'll come across it.

我当然不认为我们应该把律师都赶走。

I certainly don't think that we should be punting lawyers.

我觉得可以这么说，如果我们在最后再搞一次那个投票，结果会不一样——我会很惊讶居然有人会认为那是个好主意。

I think it's fair to say that if we'd had that poll at the end again, we would have come out with a I would be surprised if anyone would have agreed that it was a good idea.

确实有人在讨论中提到，我们应该把那些不好的律师赶出去，而且大家也认可，小组里的两位律师绝对不属于那类人。我觉得他们做得很好，谈到了律师如何真正发挥作用，在让我们的行业更可持续方面扮演重要角色。

Someone did raise the point during the conversation that we should pump the bad lawyers and there was a recognition that the two lawyers on the panel were definitely not in that category and I think they did a very good job of sort of talking to how lawyers can really have an impact and a role to play in making our industry more sustainable.

归根结底，我们都对让行业更可持续这件事有切身利益。

Ultimately, we all have a vested interest in making our industry more sustainable.

而且有很多方式，律师可以在其中发挥作用。

And there are ways, many ways that lawyers can play their part in that.

举个例子，我们 ACA 一直在和新南威尔士州基础设施部门进行对话。

Gave an example, we've been having as ACA conversations with Infrastructure New South Wales.

新南威尔士州政府有他们对行业的十项承诺，其中包括公平的风险分配方式和标准合同格式。我们跟他们提过，其实你们现在做得并不好，没有完全按照这些承诺来执行。

New South Wales government have their 10 commitment to industry which includes things like equitable approach to risk allocation and standard forms of contract and we've sort of raised with them, well, you know, actually we don't think you're doing a great job of following that at the moment.

我们想弄清楚为什么会这样。

And we're trying to understand why that is.

我觉得不是缺乏意愿的问题。

I don't think it's a lack of will.

目前大多数交付机构确实存在能力和资源不足的问题，他们应对的方式，不出所料，就是把工作外包出去。

There's certainly a capability and capacity issue within most delivery agencies currently, And they're dealing with that by unsurprisingly outsourcing work.

所以他们把工作外包出去，尤其是在合同制定方面，外包给律师事务所。

So they outsource work to, certainly from a contract formation to law firms.

我觉得这里可能存在沟通上的脱节：他们期望律师做什么，和律师传统上认为客户希望他们做什么，这两者之间不一致。律师通常的做法是尽量保护客户的利益，把尽可能多的风险转嫁给承包商。

And I think that there maybe is a communication gap there in terms of their expectations around what they would like to see them do versus the law firm's traditional view of what they think the client is looking for them to do, which is generally to try to protect their interests as far as possible through pass as much risk as possible over the fence to the contractor.

但我认为这种情况正在改变，而且我们每个人都有责任去指出这些不良行为，这些我们都知道也见过的行为，尤其是那些在职业生涯中已经达到一定阶段、有幸能够影响结果的人。

But I think that that is changing and I think that all of us have a role to play here in calling out some of these poor behaviours that we all know and have seen, especially those of us that have got to that stage in our careers where we are privileged enough to be in a position to influence outcomes.

我觉得我们都能在这个过程中尽自己的一份力。

I think we can all play our part in this journey.

我觉得很重要的一点是，不要一味地指责谁。

I think one of the important things too is certainly not attributing blame.

我的意思是，关键是有问题，那好，我们该怎么解决它？

I mean, the important thing is there are issues and all right, what do we need to do to fix it?

从我的角度看，我绝不会轻易说，哦，这是律师的错，或者是谁的错。

From my perspective, I'd be very hesitant to say, oh, it's the lawyer's fault or it's, you know, anybody else's fault.

因为，你看，影响人们交付成果的因素太多了。

Because, I mean, again, there's so many inputs and things that go into how people deliver the product that they deliver, you know.

你刚才提到了沟通这一点。

And one of the things you touched on communication.

我们很多人在这方面都做得特别差。

So many of us are terrible at it.

很多人连该问什么问题都不知道，甚至根本意识不到自己没问对问题，更别说在这个行业里了。

So many of us don't ask the right questions, but don't even know that we're not asking the right questions in any capacity, let alone, you know, in this industry.

就说意识到有问题吧，每隔一周，《信使邮报》上就会有一条新闻，说又有承包商倒闭了。

Just in terms of appreciating that there's a problem every other week, there's a headline in the courier mail about another contractor that's failed.

而且你知道这种情况不可能一直持续下去。

And you just know that that can't continue.

就是说，那……

Mean, that's

其实我昨天刚好查过这个数据，挺巧的。

I just researched this actually yesterday, funny enough.

上个财年的统计显示，建筑公司在所有破产和企业倒闭中占了大概超过25%。

The statistic for the last financial year is that construction companies account for I think it's just over 25% of all insolvencies, all business failures

在澳大利亚。

in Australia.

太惊人了。

Huge.

这绝对是非常惊人的数字。

That's absolutely huge.

我很好奇疫情之后这个数据会是什么样，到底有没有变化。

I'd be interested to see what that statistic is after COVID, if it's actually changed or not.

你之前提到过，合作并不是一种合同形式。

You mentioned before collaboration is not a form of contract.

这个我确实记下来了。

That's something I actually wrote down.

你昨晚提到过这个。

You mentioned it last night.

我把它记下来是因为我觉得，对，完全正确。

I wrote it down because I thought, yes, absolutely.

大家也讨论了如何激励这种行为。

And people discussed ways of incentivizing that sort of behavior.

你觉得有哪些合适的激励措施可以实施？

Do you have any ideas for what sorts of incentives might be implemented that are appropriate?

因为显然有些事能做，有些不能，但有些措施在推动这些行为上会非常有效。

Because obviously there's things that you can do and things that you can't do, but things that would be very efficient at driving those behaviors.

因为我觉得，从直觉上讲，人类更愿意合作而不是对抗。

Because I think intuitively humans would prefer to be collaborative than adversarial.

我是做争议解决律师的，但在生活中，我也更愿意选择合作。

I mean, I'm a disputes lawyer and I much prefer being collaborative in life.

不过，要说真正能有效推动这种行为的办法，是什么呢？

But yeah, I mean, in terms of really what would be incredibly effective at driving that behavior?

我觉得有好几个方面。

I think there's a number of things.

第一点，听起来可能有点反直觉，就是要关注争议本身。

One, which almost sounds sort of counterintuitive, to focus on disputes.

很多时候，一个项目上的文化会在争议出现时迅速恶化。

Too often the culture on a particular project will go downhill rapidly when disputes start to arise.

你知道那种老套路，我提交了一个两周的工期延期申请，你回头跟我说，这根本不行，乔恩。

Know your traditional stuff, I put an extension of time claim in for two weeks and you turn around to me and say, well that's garbage, Jon.

我连一天都不会给你。

I'm not even going to give you a day.

你怎么能这么说呢？

How can you possibly say that?

然后慢慢地，一个接一个的索赔，就开始影响你……它就像一股难闻的气味一样挥之不去。

And then that starts slowly but slowly, claim after claim, to have an impact on what you Well it just hangs around like a bad smell.

确实。

Absolutely.

持续一年。

For a year.

直到最后进行总结仲裁。

Until you have the wrap up arbitration at the end.

对，就是这样，所以关系逐渐恶化，任何形式的合作很快就消失了。

Yeah, exactly, and so relationships gradually deteriorate, and so any sort of collaboration quickly dries up.

所以我其实非常推崇DRB，也就是争议评审委员会。

And so I'm actually a big fan of DRBs, Dispute Resolution Boards.

我正想问你这个呢，对。

I was going to ask you about that, yeah.

对，其实有意思的是，我担任的这个职位还让我成为了争议评审委员会基金会董事会的一员。

Yeah, I mean actually interestingly along with this role that I have comes a seat on the board of the Dispute Resolution Board Foundation.

是跟斯蒂芬·卡拉汉一起吗？

With Stephen Callahan, right?

对，没错。

Yeah, that's right.

他也在那里。

He's there as well.

所以我要是不提一下DRB，估计就得从那个董事会滚蛋了。

So I'd be sacked off that board if I didn't at least make one mention to DRBs.

但我确实相信，它们在把争议从现场协作的人手中剥离出去方面，绝对能发挥作用。

But I do believe that absolutely that they have a part to play in taking that dispute away from the people that are trying to collaborate at site.

把争议从他们手里拿走。

Take it away from them.

就说，你把信交上来，陈述了你的立场，现在别管了，这事儿会有人处理，别人会去审查。

Say, you put your letter in, you've stated your case, don't worry about that now, that's going be taken away, and someone else is going to look at that away.

你继续干你的活，继续跟别人合作。

You carry on, you get on with the job and get on with collaborating with each other.

所以我认为这是其中的一个关键要素。

So I think that is a key component of this.

我觉得与此相关的是——我可能又要说点有争议的话了——这就是为什么我支持NEC这种合同形式，因为在这些合同里，应该多一些互惠性。

I think tied to this and again I'm probably going to be a wee bit controversial here and this is why I support NEC as a form of contract there needs to be a bit more reciprocity in some of these contracts.

我们现有的很多合同里都有一些推定条款，用来约束承包商的行为。

We have a lot of deeming provisions existing contracts that deal with contractors and what they do.

如果你在两周内没有提交工期延长索赔，那就视为你放弃了索赔权利。

If you don't submit your EOT claim within two weeks, then you're deemed not to have got a claim.

但合同里却没有提到业主或合同管理员的义务。

But there's nothing in there that says, that talks about a client's obligations or a contract administrator's obligations.

所以，如果你被要求在一定期限内回复某件事，你就应该在两周内给出答复。

So you're deemed to respond to something, you should respond to something within two weeks.

如果你没做到，那对不起，就视为你同意了。

Well if you haven't done that, well I'm sorry it's deemed to be approved.

这就是NEC合同所体现的那种互惠原则。

That's the sort of reciprocity that NEC has.

关于DRB这个话题，我之前做过

On the topic of DRBs, I've done

一期播客，是和Steven一起录的。

a podcast with Steven previously.

他当时说这就像是解决纠纷的廉价保险，差不多这个意思。

He called it cheap insurance for dispute resolution or something to that effect.

很明显，他对DRB非常了解。

And obviously, he's incredibly knowledgeable about DRBs.

但你刚才提到的一点，我之前没意识到，就是把纠纷从日常执行的人手里拿开。

But one thing that you just mentioned, I hadn't appreciated previously, the idea of just removing that dispute from the people who do the day to day.

这听起来挺有道理的，如果合同管理人员不用操心工期延长或者变更的事，

And that seems quite powerful if the people who are administering the contract don't actually have to worry about what's going on with that EOT or that variation.

他们就能专心处理合同管理本身。

They just get on with the business of administering the contract.

这似乎也能形成一种很有意思的文化。

That seems like that could also be an interesting culture.

没错，因为说到底，如果你提出要求却被拒绝，你很难不觉得这是针对个人的，对吧？

That's right, because ultimately if you ask for something and someone says no, you can't help but take that personally, can you?

确实很难。

You can't.

你根本没法把自己从那种情绪里抽离出来。

You just can't divorce yourself from that.

所以如果你接连提要求，却总是被拒绝，那肯定会影响你和那个拒绝你的人之间的关系。

So if you then get a run of asking for things and being constantly told no, then it's gonna have an impact on your relationship with that person that's saying no.

你，

You,

我们都在想，这说的不就是大多数夫妻嘛。

we're all thinking Says most married couples.

对，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

所以我觉得这其实是个很简单的道理，你说得对。

So I think that it is a bit of a no brainer really, you're right.

我觉得大家没有意识到，把争议从那些我们需要保持协作和积极工作关系的人手中移开，能带来多大的积极影响。

People I don't think appreciate just how much of an impact, positive impact that can have, taking that dispute away from the people that we're relying on to have collaborative, positive working relationships.

我记得你提到过你偏爱NEC合同系列。

I think you mentioned that you favor the NEC suite of contracts.

是不是因为在你看来，它们更用户友好一些？

Is that because they might be more user friendly in your view?

是的，它们是用通俗易懂的英语写的，整个系列里条款编号都是一致的。

Yeah, they are written in plain English, same clause references throughout the suite.

所以如果你看付款条款，不管你看的是哪种合同形式，条款编号都是一样的。

So if you're looking at payments, it's the same clause reference regardless of which form of contract you're looking at.

我想说，NEC是合同系列之一，我确实认为它们有很多优点，但我不会说我特别偏爱某一个。我觉得对我们行业来说，更大的问题，一个巨大的问题，是定制合同的普遍存在以及对其的需求。

I would say, look, mean, NEC is one suite of contracts and I do think that they have a lot in their favor, but I wouldn't say I'm particularly tied to one over What I'd say is a bigger issue for us as an industry, a huge issue for us as an industry, is the prevalence of bespoke contracts and the need for bespoke contracts.

昨天有人提到，我记得有位嘉宾提到一份800页的合同，那还只是合同的一部分，等你看完整个合同，得有几千页了。这听起来真让人头疼。

Yesterday was the reference to, I believe one of the panelists referred to an 800 page contract, which was just a portion of the contract, and by the time you got through the whole thing it was in the thousands or That seems daunting.

我觉得欧文·海福德也提到了这一点，我们很擅长，这不只是针对合同，而是适用于很多事情，我们很擅长往里面加东西。

I thought, Owen Hayford made the point as well that we're very good, and this doesn't just apply to contracts, this applies to a whole range of things, that we're very good at adding things.

所以价值映射这个概念就应运而生了，因为它提供了一个机会。

And that's why the concept value mapping came about, because it provides an opportunity.

就是说，我们得停下来盘点一下，回头重新审视那些我们随着时间推移添加到某个流程里的东西，看看它们是否还有必要，是否还在创造价值。

Well, let's take stock here and let's go back and revisit all those additions we've added to a particular process over time and see whether they're still relevant and see whether they're still adding value.

但我们对合同可不会这么做。

We don't do that with contracts.

我们很擅长做加法，却不擅长做减法。

We're very good at adding stuff, but not subtracting stuff.

我觉得这个观察挺到位的。

I thought that was a good observation.

不过我认为我们现在就需要做这种价值流映射。

But I think we need to have that value stream mapping exercise now.

如果我们不打算采用其他标准合同形式、从零开始，那我们就得在这方面多下功夫。

If we're not going to adopt alternate standard forms of contract and start from scratch, we've got to do more in that area.

让我感触很深的一点是技术。

Something that has struck me is technology.

那技术能发挥什么作用呢？

And what role does technology have to play?

现在，看看过去十年我们在手机上能做的事情，发展真是惊人。

Now, of course, we look around at the growth that we've seen just in the last ten years with respect to what we can do on our mobile phone.

这个行业肯定有技术发展的空间，这显然会对文化以及合同的起草、管理等方面产生连锁反应。

Surely there would be room for technological development in the industry, and that would obviously have a knock on effect to culture and the way contracts are drafted and administered and all of that.

你能告诉我，你觉得技术在我们行业里有哪些机会吗？

Can you tell me where you see technology opportunities our industry for that?

简单来说，机会非常大。

There's a huge opportunity is the short answer to that.

机会简直太大了。

There's an absolutely enormous opportunity there.

问题不在于我们不知道如何做得更好。

And the opportunity the problem is not that we don't know how to do things better.

而是缺乏实现它的技术。

There isn't the technology there to do it.

你看BIM，现在很多人叫它数字工程，这个概念已经存在三十年了。

You look at BIM, which a lot of people now call digital engineering, and that as a concept has been around for thirty years.

BIM这个词最早是在大约三十年前提出的，就是建筑信息模型。

BIM was first coined around about thirty years ago, building information modelling.

我记得十年前就看过关于它的演示。

I remember watching presentations on it like ten years ago.

对，没错，确实是这样。

Yeah, yeah, look, that's right.

但我还没见过……不，不。

And I still haven't seen No, no.

一个项目

A project

用BIM做的。

with BIM.

可能只是我没见过而已。

That could just be me.

精益施工也是一样的情况。

And it's the same with lean construction.

精益施工这个概念也是大约三十年前出现的。

Lean construction is a concept that came around thirty years ago.

我们专门来聊聊BIM吧。

And let's focus on BIM specifically.

我觉得如果用好BIM，在整个资产生命周期里能节省10%到12%的成本。

I think the numbers are between 1012% savings over the life cycle of an asset if BIM is utilized.

所以节省的幅度相当可观。

So significant savings.

尽管这个概念已经存在了三十年，但我们并没有真正用起来。

Despite the fact it's been around thirty years, we're not using it.

看到电脑屏幕上的三维模型就特别兴奋，觉得已经搞定了。

We get really excited if we see a three d model on a computer screen and think we've cracked it.

然而那只是BIM成熟度十个等级中的第一级而已。

And yet that is level one of about 10 different levels of BIM maturity.

那这是为什么呢？

So why is that?

在我看来，这又回到了合同的问题上。BIM、数字工程以及许多其他技术解决方案的核心，都依赖于开放透明地共享信息。

Well, my view on that, and this comes back to contracts, is that at its heart, BIM, digital engineering, and a lot of these other technology solutions rely on open and transparent sharing of information.

但是

And

我们现有的合同却恰恰在推动相反的行为。

yet we have the contracts that we use drive exactly the opposite behaviors.

我们紧抓着信息不放，因为也许我可以用它来向你索赔，或者你可以用它来应对我的索赔。

We hang on to information because I could maybe use that in a claim against you, or you could use that to defend a claim from me.

所以我们不喜欢分享这些信息，尤其是当事情出错时发生了什么。

So we don't like sharing that information, especially information about what happens when things go wrong.

这确实是个大问题。

So that's a real problem.

如果我们想做得更好，却不分享信息，也不从错误中学习，那事情没有改善又有什么好奇怪的呢？

If we were trying to get better and we're not sharing information and learning from when things go wrong, is it any surprise that things aren't getting any better?

那这是文化层面的问题吗？

So is that a culture piece?

还是合同层面的问题？

Is that a contracting piece?

还是所有因素都交织在一起？

Is that everything all wrapped up?

我觉得涉及很多方面，但合同绝对在其中扮演重要角色。

I mean It's a lot of things, but I think this is absolutely something where I think the contract is a big part to play.

如果深入探讨BIM的技术细节，就会涉及知识产权问题，比如谁拥有知识产权。

And if we get into sort of technicalities around BIM in particular, then you have questions around IP, who works the IP.

我正想说这个，我觉得那是……

I was going to say that I think that's

但这不是无法解决的问题。

But that's not an insurmountable problem.

归根结底，如果我们都共享信息，另一个问题是：如果出了问题，当大家都为这个大型模型做出贡献时，如何确定谁该负责？

Ultimately, if we're all sharing of information, the other issue is, well, if something does go wrong, identify who's liable when we've all contributed to this with this one big model?

但如果我们从那种追责文化转向协作文化，再考虑到当前专业责任保险市场的挑战，转而采用项目专属保险，这样就能避免单独追究个人责任的问题，那我们就能更专注于协作本身。

But if we move towards away from that blame culture to a collaborative culture and we look at, well this will be another challenge given the professional indemnity market currently, but we look to project specific insurance that takes away that individual issue identifying liability, then we can start to focus more on collaboration.

乔恩，你给了我们很多值得思考的东西，非常感谢你。

You've given us a lot to think about, Jon, and thank you so much.

现在我要问你一个非常棘手的问题。

Now I'm going to ask you the very hard question.

我们该怎么做？

What do we do?

怎么才能实现？

How do we make it happen?

很高兴你问这个问题，梅丽莎，因为我们觉得我们有个计划。

I'm glad you asked me that Melissa, because we think we have a plan.

有一个前进的方向。

Have a way forward.

太好了。

Excellent.

这是行业和政府携手合作的结果。

And this is industry and government coming together.

这不是ACA一家能推动的事。

This isn't an ACA initiative.

也不是Jon一个人能推动的事。

This isn't a Jon initiative.

这是整个行业共同提出的解决方案和前进方向。

This is a whole of industry solution and way forward.

几年前英国Carillion公司倒闭后，英国政府意识到，不能再让这种事重演了。

What we've seen in The UK with the collapse of Carillion a few years back now, the UK government said, we can't afford for that to happen again.

于是他们制定了一份《建筑服务指南》或《政府服务指南》，核心是规范政府外包服务的最佳采购和交付实践。

So what they did was they came up with a construction services playbook or a government services playbook, which essentially set out best practice procurement and delivery for outsourcing of government services.

这个做法非常成功。

And it was hugely successful.

所以他们就想，能不能把这个模式推广开来？

So they said, well, can adapt this model?

这个模式能不能用到其他地方？

Can we use this model elsewhere?

然后他们说，那我们在哪些地方还有问题呢？

And they said, well, where else do we have a problem?

建筑行业。

Construction industry.

所以他们和英国建筑领导委员会合作，这个委员会是英国建筑行业协会的代表机构，他们说，我们想和你们一起合作解决这个问题。

So they came together with a construction leadership council in The UK, which is a representative body of construction industry associations in The UK, and said, we'd like to work with you on this.

这是在疫情之前。

And this was pre COVID.

疫情来了之后，反而大大加速了这个进程。

COVID came along and that really accelerated the process.

他们在不到十二个月的时间里就制定出了一个手册，一个建筑行业手册。

They developed a playbook, a construction playbook in under twelve months.

和英国建筑领导委员会的主席聊过，他说要不是因为疫情，这根本不可能发生。

And talking to the chair of the CLC in The UK said that would never have happened but for COVID.

我觉得这真的是我们在澳大利亚可以效仿的一个好例子。

I think that we can really that is a great example for us to follow here in Australia.

行业内对问题所在已经有了广泛的共识，而且对我们刚才讨论的那些解决方案，大家也基本上都认同。

There's already a broad acceptance of what the problems are within industry and probably just as equally a broad acceptance as to what the solutions are along the lines of the things that we've been talking about just now.

但问题在于，我们并没有真正行动起来去落实这些方案。

But what there isn't, what we're not doing is actually getting on and doing that.

而那个行动指南，就是把所有这些最佳实践都记录下来。

And what the playbook is, it documents all that best practice.

所以我们可以借鉴像建筑行业领导论坛在某些领域发布的实践指南这类资料，来制定这份最佳实践文件。

So we could draw on things like the Construction Industry Leadership Forum practice notes in certain areas, and we could develop this best practice document.

在英国的做法是，政府要求其下属的交付机构必须采用这套指南，否则就得解释为什么不这么做。

What they do in The UK is the UK government says to its delivery agencies, you've got to use that or explain why you're not doing that.

在澳大利亚这边，我们一直在和联邦政府讨论如何推行这个模式，他们指出，我们和英国的情况不太一样。

Here, obviously, we've been having conversations with the federal government around how that could work, they rightly point out the fact that, well, we're a little bit different to The UK.

澳大利亚是联邦制，运作方式会有些不同。

We have a federated model here in Australia, so it works a little bit differently.

但如果我们把各州看作执行机构，其实也差不多。

But it doesn't really if we look at The States as delivery agencies, then it doesn't.

是的，没错，他们比英国的执行机构更敢说话，但我们其实可以激励他们采用这套方案，因为这一切都是为了改善成果。

Yes, okay, they're a bit more vocal than delivery agencies in The UK, but we could actually incentivize them to utilize this because this is all about improving outcomes.

比如从生产效率的角度来看，如果我们能改善成果，我们可以对各州说，看，我们和你们一起分享这些节省下来的成本。

If we improve outcomes from a productivity perspective, for example, we could say to The States, look, we all share those savings with you.

你们可以把这些钱重新投入预算，建设更多基础设施，提供更多服务，或者其他任何用途。

You can feed that back into your budgets, build more infrastructure, provide more services, whatever it is.

这样一来，各州就有很强的动力去这么做了。

So the states could be really incentivised to doing that.

所以，我们ACA现在要做的是，联合行业力量，共同呼吁制定这样一本操作手册。

So what we're looking to do as ACA is build an industry coalition together to call for a playbook.

我们已经获得了大量的支持，很多方面都表示愿意支持这个理念。

We've already had huge of support, indications of support around getting behind this concept.

梅丽莎，我可能之后会和你单独聊聊，看看能不能让Soklaer也作为签署方加入进来。

And I might be having a separate conversation with you, Melissa, about getting Soklaer as a signatory to this as well.

因为我们希望覆盖整个行业，不只是承包商。

Because we're looking for across industry, not just contractors.

我们也在找咨询公司。

We're looking for consultants.

澳大利亚咨询协会对此非常感兴趣。

Consult Australia are very much interested in this.

我们一直在和澳大利亚道路协会、澳大利亚铁路协会沟通，各行各业都感兴趣，因为这真的能带来改变。

We've been talking to Roads Australia, Australasian Railways Association, across the board interest in this because this could really shift the dial.

对。

Yeah.

好的，非常感谢你接受我的采访，Jon。

Well, thank you so much for joining me, Jon.

这真是一次愉快的交流。

It's been an absolute pleasure.

如果你想了解更多Jon在澳大利亚承包商协会的工作，以及如何推动行业可持续变革，请访问他们的网站 constructors.com.au。

If you are interested in learning more about Jon's work with the Australian Constructors Association and what you can do to help drive sustainable change in the industry, visit their website at constructors.com.au.

另外，别忘了访问我们的网站 scl.org.au，那里有协会的最新动态、行业新闻和资源，当然还有即将举办的活动详情。

And while you're at it, make sure you head on over to our website, scl.org.au, where you'll find information about what the Society is working on, industry news and resources, and of course details as to the Society's upcoming events.

如果你还不是会员，也可以在那里注册。

And if you're not already a member, you can sign up there too.

scl.org.au，感谢收听。

Scl.org.au Thanks for listening.